#real people: anne lister

[ettucamus]

if you don’t like mariana lawton literally grow up. anne lister loved her romantically for twenty years and as a friend for her entire life. ann walker became very close with her throughout the mid-late 1830s and after anne lister’s death they continued to share a deep friendship. they were real complex people who were not always charitable to each other but they had an understanding of solidarity as lesbians, as women, living through deeply oppressive times

#th.txt #to a further extent. there are diary entries from codebreakers that were not part of the wealth of info used for the show #that shed a much kinder light on mariana and i think people need to remember that the show is an interpretation of secondary sources #it’s wonderfully skillfully made and hugely elaborate RPF #i get some are not as much into the real history behind the show but idk #it saddens me to see the difficult choices and coerced choices of historical lesbians reduced to shipping wars #i much dislike this concept of endgame loves and otps ESPECIALLY regarding anne lister #that’s just not how she conducted her relationships #every woman in her life she loved and continued to love though the love morphed over time #each of them satisfied what anne needed in that period of her life and in return anne also gave them so so so much #to be a woman in regency times even a straight woman was generally a tragic life filled with absolutely no free will and choices #to be a lesbian was to be isolated from the little society outside of whatever forced marriage you were most likely goaded into #i wish fandom did less arguing over otps and more critical analysis of what it meant to be a lesbian in regency britain #the real magic of GJ is how it manages to portray hope and historical grit through objectively terrible circumstances and make it romantic #if i wanted a nondescript lesbian romance there’s actually a decent amount to choose from now #im obsessed with GJ because of the history and the complexity of real people and real situations endured #but it seems like to some those are the worst parts of the show? which i just simply don’t get

[geekynichelle]

I’m genuinely curious, because I thought Anne’s conservative politics were super obvious from the first season, but I’ve seen some people a bit surprised about it, and I’m wondering why that is.  

#Gentleman Jack #Anne Lister #is it bc you assumed her being gay meant she'd be progressive? #is it a white lady thing? #she was very classist and unsympathetic to non- rich women #in season one she mentions it's shitty that poor men got the vote but people like her got left behind #I'm personally fine with all this since she was a real person #and it's fun to have messy gay shit #but irl I would never support Anne #she is literally white feminism^TM

[crownspeaksblog]

I'm sorry what do mean anne isn't in love ann?? What the fuck have we been doing in season 1?? I know anne never said that she loved her but i just thought she did love her and was just afraid of vocalizing it.. i guess ann just wanted a wife and what was loving her wife not a requirement?! This really upsets me and it's really not fair to ann

#i know these are real people and their lives and feelings are complex but it still upsets me #anne you better tell ann that you love her or else.. #gentleman jack #gentleman jack season 2 #anne lister #ann walker #the ann(e)s

[marzipanandminutiae]

speaking of historical figures who were important from a Marginalized Groups perspective but also grade-A douchecanoes

Anne Lister

holy crap. what an asshole. just. the rich fuckgirl at the gay bar who’s always sleeping around on her latest partner and ends up marrying an even richer woman with severe depression (partially for her money) and treating her like shit

it was hilarious to me that people were getting mad at s2 of Gentleman Jack for “bad gay representation” when it’s like. my sibling in sin, that’s what actually happened in real life

the clock struck 12 and the handsome early Victorian butch of your dreams has turned back into a rampaging jerk

#anne lister #queer history #lgbt history #sapphic history #lesbian history

[beardedmrbean]

Bradley Cooper has received backlash for wearing a large prosthetic nose to portray Jewsish composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in his new film Maestro.

The star, who also directed, produced and co-wrote Maestro, has been accused of doing “Jewface” because of the transformative look which is seen in the trailer for the upcoming Netflix biopic of the legendary musician.

Following the new trailer for Maestro, which will focus on the complex relationship of Bernstein and his formidable wife Felicia Montealegre, played by Carey Mulligan, Cooper, 48, was slammed by some for fuelling antisemitic stereotypes.

Jewish British actress Tracy-Ann Oberman, 56, shared a snap of the actor in costume along with a caption condemning the use of the prosthetic nose.

She wrote: “All actors should be able to play any part with their skill. However, we are living in times where there is huge sensitivity and debate over ethnic and minority representation.

“If Bradley Cooper green lights your film to play the Jewish composer Bernstein and you want him over a Jewish A-lister who can equally play that role – then let Bradley Cooper’s acting be so magnificent and truthful that the character of Bernstein shines through what he already looks like.

“If he needs to wear a prosthetic nose then that is, to me and many others, the equivalent of Blackface or Yellowface."

She also referenced British actor Cillian Murphy, adding: “Cillian could play Oppenheimer because he looks like Oppenheimer and could get the power of the man’s story and Jewishness through the power of his acting, ditto Tom Conti as Einstein didn’t have to ‘wear’ a nose.”

The EastEnders star continued:  “If Bradley Cooper can’t do it through the power or acting alone then don’t cast him – get a Jewish actor.

“Bradley Cooper managed to play the ELEPHANT MAN without a single prosthetic then he should be able to manage to play a Jewish man without one.”

Her post received several comments of support with many sharing their disappointment in Cooper.

One wrote: “This isn’t about making a non-Jewish actor look more like Leonard Bernstein; it’s about making a non-Jewish actor look more like a Jewish stereotype.”

Another commented: “The real Leonard Bernstein did not have the funny nose that Bradley Cooper is wearing in Maestro. I’m just so tired of this. #JewFace.”

A third said: “This feels especially sinister because Bradley Cooper’s nose is already the same shape and size, if not slightly larger, than Leonard Bernstein’s was.”

While a fourth declared: “I have never said that Jews have to be played by Jews. But the idea of a queer Jewish legend being played by a straight white dude with a fake nose just makes me want to never watch a film again.”

However, Jewish actor and West Wing star Joshua Malina came to Cooper’s defence. He told Page Six: “I do not take issue with Bradley Cooper being made to look like a real person.

“Were an actor to don a big hooked nose to play Shylock, or a random, fictitious Jew, I think I’d have a problem with the propagation of a well-worn antisemitic stereotype.

“Jews do not, in fact, have bigger noses than other people do; Leonard Bernstein did. That’s the end of the story for me.”

Standard.co.uk has contacted Bradley Cooper’s reps for comment.

Link to the families response here

#nunyas news

[yeetlegay]

Hey! Any wlw recs? Fics movies shows anything

ANON WHERE TO BEGIN

Some personal favorites off the top of my head:

Movies:

Carol (2015) - Cate Blanchett, period (1950s), absolutely stunning and iconic lesbian cinema

The Handmaiden (2016) - reimagining of Fingersmith by Sarah Waters, set in Japanese-occupied Korea during the 1930s, brilliant and imaginative and lush

Imagine Me and You (2005) - Lena Headey (Cersei from GoT) being a hot florist, love at first sight, cheesy romcom deliciousness, big warning for cheating tho it’s handled very well imo

Rafiki (2018) - coming of age love story, beautiful and ends on a good note but there’s a LOT of homophobia and some violence so be careful, was the first Kenyan film screened at Cannes which is amazing

Vita and Virginia (2018) - based on the real life romance between Virginia Woolf and Vita Sackville-West, the 1920s fashion + delicious sexual tension 🤌🏻🤌🏻 cw for depiction of depression and suicidal ideation

Tv shows:

First Kill (2022) - SUPPORT THIS SHOW, vampire and vampire hunter fall in love, set in one of my fave cities (Savannah), very camp Romeo & Juliet high school romance just with more blood and fangs

Fingersmith (2005) - British miniseries based on the same novel as The Handmaiden but much closer to the source material, Victorian lesbians ft the most magnificently crafted plot and sexual tension galore, holy shit watch it

Killing Eve - okay this one is a little controversial bc of the ending (which I pretend doesn’t exist) but holy fuck if you like VegasPete, Villanelle and Eve are their even more murderous and batshit crazy cousins. Cat and mouse games between a psychopath assassin and a British intelligence officer (altho she’s actually American but whatever) that I was sure would be queerbaiting, but nope they’re in love. Consider looking up how it ends tho if you need HEAs in your stories

Gap the Series - not out yet but when it is, WATCH IT. Currently in production I think, probably out later this year. It’s Thai and will be available on YouTube with subtitles. Office romance, so many lesbians I’ve lost count and like one (1) man total in the cast.

Gentleman Jack - just dropped season 2 unffff. Period British show based on the life of lesbian Anne Lister, who is one half of the first known gay marriage in England. She’s so fucking hot and butch if you’re not in love with her the second she jumps off that carriage in episode 1…and her love story with shy, repressed wallflower Ann Walker is tender and sexy and complex. Cw for depiction of anxiety and suicide attempt in season 1 (lmk if you’d like the exact ep and time stamp)

Portrait of a Marriage (1990) - a little hard to find but worth the hunt. Based on the romance between novelist Vita Sackville-West (yes, who also had an affair with Virginia Woolf) and her socialite lover Violet. I cannot believe more people don’t talk about this miniseries bc holy shit. Vita and Violet are so fucking in love and their chemistry and love scenes had me gripping the edge of my seat despite the abysmal quality of the version I watched on Dailymotion. Cw for a shitload of cheating, some toxic vibes, and an ending that while mostly historically accurate was still a bummer.

Fics:

Obv I will shamelessly plug my Kinnporsche f/f smut bc I love her and also am desperate for more f/f fic in the ao3 tag so I’m not over here by myself anymore lol

I don’t know what fandoms you’re in but if you’ve watched Word of Honor or read 2ha, holy shit is there some good f/f fic in those tags. Sort by kudos and godspeed friend

Books:

You didn’t ask about books lol but here are some faves of mine anyway

Delilah Green Doesn’t Care by Ashley Herring Blake - hot tatted bi protagonist, very gender, falls in love with cute single mom in her hometown when she comes back for her stepsister’s wedding

One Last Stop by Casey McQuiston - Kate and Leopold but gay and good, butch lesbian from the 1970s gets stuck in time on the subway, grumpy bisexual falls in love with her, makes me reconsider my stance on subway sex bc holy shit.

Dowry of Blood by S. T. Gibson - okay this one is sapphic but in a polyamorous context so if you want, like, zero men then skip this rec. Inspired by the lore around Dracula’s brides, very gothic and queer, Constanta (narrator) is the first bride who’s in love with Dracula but also her fellow brides Magdalena and Alexei. Cw for depictions of emotional abuse and gaslighting, Dracula is a manipulative piece of shit (who would’ve guessed lol)

Hope this helps anon!

#I’m not tagging all that lol but #wlw recs #lesbian recs #book recs #movie recs #tv recs #why don’t queue stay

[motsimages]

After my post about Carmilla, old timey lesbians and Very Good Friends made the rounds, some people commented that they wanted more info about how the social change occurred and Very Good Friends And Possibly Lesbians turned from a good thing to a bad thing, I looked it up.

When I say I looked it up, I mean, I went to look for the Twitter threads that speak about it, made by @/firecrackerx (Cristina Domenech, in Spanish). I will use these two threads, half translate, half comment by myself. From there on, you figure it out yourselves.

So, basically, what happened in the 18th and 19th Century anglosphere upper classes (this may or may not be the case for other classes or other countries) was that men and women lived in separate spheres. They rarely mixed and when they did, it was according to very strict rules (Jane Austen's books are a good example of this, she is turn of the Century).

[This obviously still happens in societies where there is such a rigid difference and it has probably happened in any society where the social gender roles are very separated. But back to the point.]

For women, you had to be at home, private life, you had to be passive, sweet, motherly and spiritual. The Angel in the House. They also never take initiative with anything, and specially not Sex. Sex is the man's domain and so only men can make advances in terms of sex.

Being next to a man unsupervised meant Sex was happening or almost, so women would be with other women most of their time. When unmarried, almost exclusively. And from there: Very Good Friendship happened, or as Cristina calls them "Romantic Female Friendship" or jokingly, "Intense Friendship".

Going back to Dracula because for many of you it is the discovery of this kind of friendship: Mina and Lucy. What Mina and Lucy do is the usual thing in this kind of relationship. All the emotions and feelings you couldn't pour into a man because well What Would People Say About Us Then, you could pour into your girlfriend. And they did, knowing that eventually each of them would marry a man and maybe the friendship will stay the same or not.

This was accepted, including the kissing and hugging and it all because women did not have Sex, that was a man's thing. It was (and think about it, for many people it still is) impossible for two women to be having Sex so not only it was accepted: it was considered Virtuous and Good. The best example of this is the Ladies of Llangollen: Anne Lister thought they were together but everyone else wasn't so convinced because well, two women living together, sure it's odd but Sex cannot possibly happen.

Sure, Victorians invented pornography, including lesbian porn. But real women did not do these things because VirtueTM.

As I mentioned in my other post: many of these relationship were just friendships, many were romantic relationship and some were actual lesbians having sex and dating. The concept of these relationship is foreign to us, we don't have these romantic relationships anymore, but it was obviously a good façade for lesbians because of all I mentioned before.

So, this is how it goes up until the end of the 19th Century or so. What happened that everything changed?

A couple of things, one of them was feminism and women wanting to be economically and personally independent and many women being able to actually be independent. But a woman living alone and single is a bad thing, so we'll use the Boston marriage thing, which is the best way to have a SuperVirtuous Romantic Friendship With My Very Best Friend (totally not lesbians, no sir) (well, again, some were lesbians, many were just not wanting to share their lives with Victorian men, understandably).

Before this, it wasn't a problem because Very Good Friends then went on to marry a man but now the "problem" with this (for men) was that women weren't getting married (to men). Incel much?

And so, Victorian doctors interested in sex (sexologist?) investigated the question: how come women don't want to be with men if that is the only way? If women are passive and lack initiative, how come they are actually making decisions? The only possible answer is: they are not women.

I'll let you a moment to accept that many of you are from this moment on Not Women as you thought you were because you like sports, make decisions, are assertive or don't want to get married.

Anyways, now that doctors are investigating the question, the only possible conclusion to women not wanting to marry men when they have Very Good Friendship is that they are inverted and have some kind of disorder.

It took some decades, until the beginning of the 20th Century for these ideas to be accepted and established. The Bostonians (the book where the term and idea of "Boston Mariage" first appears) was published in 1886, almost 10 years before Dracula (1897). Carmilla is from 1872. The Ladies of Llangollen, that I mentioned at the beginning died in 1829 and 1831. This is to give you an idea of a timeframe.

In Carmilla, as I mentioned, the fear and horror come from Carmilla making advances and showing sexual desire. More than 20 years after that we have Dracula, with Lucy and Mina being virtuous good friends. For contrast, Dracula's flatmates do show desire for Jonathan, something women do not have at the time, therefore, those aren't really women.

So both Carmilla and Dracula are from the time when Victorian doctors are "discovering" these new tendencies and speaking about them but they haven't reached the general population yet.

However, and this will ring a bell with modern readers: in the origins of feminism and the suffragist movement, many women detached themselves from it for fear of being read as homosexuals, with the stigma (and later crime) of it. Many suffragist and feminist also refused lesbians in their team for the same reason (I'm not a lesbian but people might think I am because a lesbian is here). Once again, a win for the men.

But there you have it, a short story of women relationships of all sorts.

#dracula #carmilla #history of women #history of lesbians #lesbianism #victorians #1800s #the ladies of llangollen #anne lister #dracula daily

[teawiththespleen]

okay i get it feminine women find NLOG narratives grating but these video essays about NLOG characters in historical dramas are soooo obtuse. like you really think youve analysed the story critically when your point boils down to jo march/anne shirley/anne lister werent all that for going against everything that was expected of them, or when the character trope youre critiquing are REAL people

there’s nOt LiKe OtHeR giRLs, and then there’s existing in an insular or conservative culture as a woman and being unable to exist in peace in any way other than a way that ACTIVELY makes your life harder. i live in a conservative place by and large and im okay dressing in any way that doesn’t have me be a focal point, so i’ll wear something that i dont feel entirely myself in and be fine. but man it’s tough out here for decidedly masc presenting women, who, if anything, check all the conservative dresscode boxes. and that’s NOW. like present day.

what these critiques fail to take into account is that what youd consider NLOG is often performatively so? like youre not just unlike other girls, you’re unlike other girls in a way that’s appealing to men or other such women or whoever decides things are cool. so much of being NLOG is about declaring that you are not like the other girls. and then listing out the ways that you are then not.like the other girls (but you’re still thin, light skinned, have long hair, have a carefully curated wardrobe dw).

ig it’s distancing yourself from admitting you’re preoccupied with figuring out how to perform femininity or feminine appeal or maybe not wanting to be hyperfeminine but youre still straight, or maybe youre at lvl 1 NLOG and you think hyperfemininity and critical thinking is a real life dichotomy or smth

idk what to tell the ytuber but anne lister was decidedly not like other girls. i dont think she’d even call herself a girl if she were plonked into the present day. anne shirley was either born ND or was put through a traumatising system early and for long enough to never be able to look at the world the same way as the kids brought up safely and with loving, money-having parents. and both of these characters loved women too much for you to conclude that they scorned “feminine” qualities (and therefore, the other girls).

you really cant ignore the context of the time. it took so little to not be like other girls. and so many of her points kind of made my heart sink. is attention to clothing and caring about feminine coded things all that there is to being a woman? if anything a historical setting lets you see there’s more to gender and that people contain multitudes. esp w little women, jo and amy are written as foils and share many core features that make them THEM, more so than their clothing or style or the way they choose to come across and the things they scoff at. they’re two ends of the SAME spectrum

where people get the idea that existing as a masculine woman is easy i do not know. i think people too often conflate being gender non-conforming, with actively rebelling against and/or denouncing gendered expectations, with the NLOG trope/phenomenon as seen in social media/published media

you would really make a “we need to talk about…” video about these women and characters while wearing jeans and having your hair down and wearing bright lipstick..

#terfs dni #people dont know what misogyny means anymore it would seem #also for a hist costuber she has a shocking lack of awe for how radical anne lister’s clothing choices were #also let people hate corsets again idc #some were comfy and some sucked and i bet a lot of people didnt have the money for a well made one #as if we dont know how much a well fitting bra costs now #the comments are calling her out godbless #anne lister #anne shirley #jo march #amy march #gentleman jack #anne with an e #anne of green gables #little women

[iredreamer]

Hi, love your blog! In the master-post section, there is a tag for information regarding Ann Walker's appearance and where the "pretty flaxen hair" description came from. I found it at the end of the January 1, 1837, entry as part of a hilarious mishap involving fire and Ann Walker's nightcap!

hello!! Thank you so much for your message, I transcribed that day because I was super curious:

Sunday 1, January 1837 > No kiss – fine morning sun shining and F 33 1/2° at 9 25/.. at which hour breakfast – A- [Adney] did her French till 10 – sat down stairs talking till 10 ¼ – then read the Halifax Guardian of yesterday and thought about letter to Messrs Gray – at 11 40/.. in 40 minutes – (25 prayers – 15 sermons) A- [Adney] and I had the servants all assembled in the [East] parlour and read prayers and one of Prley's sermons (very good) on new year’s day – then A- [Adney] had luncheon – I finished reading the Halifax Guardian of yesterday till 1 ½ – wrote my letter to Messrs Gray and my note to Mr Greenwood – Stopt a moment at the school in passing – at church at 2 25/.. five minutes before the time – Mr Fenton did all the duty – preached 24 minutes from Ecclesiaste iii.15 – good sermon – as far as I heard of it before dropping asleep – about 25 minutes at Cliff Hill – Mr Fenton arrived as we stopt at the door, and we left him there – have made [this] house very comfortable – laid out £500 – the present minister wanted to make a radical bp. [bishop] of Ripon – the abp. [archbishop] of York said if they did, he would not give up his money – but if they would appoint Longley (which they did) or a gentleman not very far from here (one [vicar] – Mr Musgrove was surely the person alluded to) he (the abp. [archbishop]) would give up the money – home at 5 ¼ – wrote the last 9 lines – sealed and put into the bag my letter to “Messrs Gray solicitors York” and my note to “[Thomas] Greenwood Esquire Bank Field” my letter to say I would rather have the whole sum on one security and by them to let me know as immediately as possible if I could have fifteen thousands from the [?] Prestons by the end of April to keep the papers for the present – shall be glad to hear the answer about the field – A- [Adney] much obliged by the information [procured] for her by Mr Watson – the note to ask Greenwood to call here as immediately as may suit his convenience, and to make his own day and hour – dinner at 6 ½ – coffee upstairs as usual – A- [Adney] read French – and afterwards read aloud from the London paper of tonight – I ½ asleep on the sofa till after 10 – fine day – hard frost and very cold – F 28° now at 10 25/.. p.m. – went to undress about 10 40/.. – about 11 heard a very strange noise of bustle and screaming in a confused undertone – found Cookson and Oddy with A- [Adney] who had set her night-cap on fire, and thrown it blazing on the hearth-rug, instead, as she intended, into the fire-place – everybody frightened but luckily no further harm done than singeing a little of A-’s [Adney] pretty flaxen hair – thankful that she was safe – sat up talking till near 12.

“about 11 heard a very strange noise of bustle and screaming in a confused undertone – found Cookson and Oddy with A- [Adney] who had set her night-cap on fire, and thrown it blazing on the hearth-rug, instead, as she intended, into the fire-place – everybody frightened but luckily no further harm done than singeing a little of A-’s [Adney] pretty flaxen hair – thankful that she was safe – sat up talking till near 12.” [SH:7/ML/E/19/0180]

This is hilarious and also frightening – love how Anne’s like “thank god SHE was safe” awwww <3

#ask #anonymous #anne lister diaries #real people: anne lister #real people: ann walker #ann walker: appearance #AL and AW: married life #ALyear: 1837 #ALentry: 1 jan 1837

[ettucamus]

gentleman jack is truly having the opposite effect on me in that i went to a bar last night, got very drunk, and Didn’t try to pick someone up because i do Not want to fall back into my old trauma habits, AKA having a bunch of casual sex and using my affection for my partner to hide my glaring insecurities of self AKA my anne lister kin era

#gentleman jack #anne lister #i did find the two latest eps! so im emo about my stupid problematic lesbian landlord kin #anne lister needs therapy lmao #watching GJ is like watching my unmedicated and un therapied self lmao #maybe this is exposing myself but before i really Understood republican politics #i had a phase where i was like. a staunch conservative because being gay or trans wasnt as high profile of an issue #and it was much easier to just pretend like they’d accept me if i tried to Blend Into their society #i was attending boarding school in canada because my mother hates me lmao #so i was surrounded by all these upper UPPER class genuinely rich kids #so like all of the people judging anne lister are like. if you were in her position you’d have acted and believed the exact same things #traumatized adhd lesbians with bad parental relations tend to act. exactly the fucking same lmao #bear in mind i was a young teenager during this time and i wasn’t in therapy proper #so i think that’s also like #emblamatic of the fact that anne lister had a fuckton of childhood familial trauma and she kind of stayed in this perpetually traumatized #state her entire life because Therapy and Real Mental Health guidance didn’t exist #yeah the belcombes were mental health doctors but the show Kind Of glosses over how their easist and first solution was to institutionalize #anne lister was stuck in this perpetual cycle very familiar to other adhd trauma survivors #her affectation of personality existed just as much for safety from Herself as it did safety from society #in a way she therapied herself by reading SO much and trying to contextualize the world through philosophy

[lesbyeen]

Season 2 Thinks

Okay so I’m gonna get this out of the way right now: I enjoyed season 2. If you didn’t like it as much as season 1 that's a-ok! I’ve seen a lot of dislike of it on the subreddit, and I think some of it’s warranted but I also think some people are being a little too... not harsh, but I don’t think they’re considering the source materials (those being Anne Lister’s real journals).

Is Anne Lister as charming as she was in season 1? No. But she wasn’t going to be. I see season 1 as Anne trying to charm the audience as much as she’s trying to charm Ann Walker and season 2 Anne is definitely showing some of her true colors. It feels very close to the journals (because it is). Anne was classist, a gold digger, insanely ambitious, and kind of a wench-- but I think she kind of had to be in order to maintain what freedoms she had (not excusing it, but I think that’s part of her reasoning). Her ambition really shows this season though, which is admirable and I really like that about her character in season 2-- we’re seeing a lot more of that side of her. 

Yes some of the subplots are getting old. The pig-murder thing doesn’t need to be there and it kind of disappeared after a certain point. I can kind of see it as a young man with no prior education fixing his own problems in the best way he sees fit but it’s also not a great plot line. Some people might be a little bored of the Eugenie’s romance subplot but I actually enjoyed seeing more of Anne’s servants this season-- side characters are important too!

Would I like to have seen more of Ann Walker? Hell yeah, she’s my girl! I love her! I think a lot of things were happening this season, and Sophie Rundle was also out with having her baby and I imagine COVID got in the way of her being able to do as much filming as Suranne or the others. Sophie did a wonderful job in the bits she was in, and I think the quality vs. quantity thing came into play here.

I think some people were expecting another round of Anne being charming as hell with everyone, including the audience, when that wasn’t what was going to happen. Again, she wasn’t the greatest person ever. The primary argument I’ve seen elsewhere is about Anne’s character, but again, Anne is directly based off of what goes on in the real Anne Lister diaries.

Just my two cents on some of the arguments I’ve seen! Feel free to disagree with me, but I’m not going to be arguing with anyone about it since again, just my two cents. Not trying to cause any fights here!

#gentleman jack #gentleman jack s2 #gentleman jack spoilers #anne lister #ann walker

[menalez]

Regarding this post idk if it’s entirely accurate, I think it was more along the lines of people thinking women could not actually physically be sexual with each other, and all love between them is inherently sisterly (similar to today with straight women calling their female friends girlfriends and being more affectionate with them than men are with each other, the concept that it could possibly be romantic isn’t even considered. Whereas with men any affection between them need be immediately followed by ‘no homo!’). In fact one the reasons Anne lister could easily sleep with her gfs is because women sleeping together in the same bed when visiting each other was so normalised. Iirc in the early 20th century they actually considered making a law against female homosexuality but didn’t because they thought if more women knew of its existence through a ban of it, more might try engaging in it. It’s very interesting tbh how differently homophobia manifested itself in history, and today too, whether it was directed towards men or women

tbh i think you both are correct. but let’s be real here, while love between women is either desexualised or dismissed as a myth, it’s also that in many cases, women have no freedom. for example, most countries with the death penalty for homosexuality only have this death penalty for men. why? there’s even a known phenomena in many of those countries of women having lesbian sex and same sex relationships. but the thing is, women already aren’t allowed to travel without their male guardians’ consent. they already can’t get married to a MAN without their male guardians’ approval. often they can even get honour killed without any punishment. so why would the law need to crack down on lesbian sex? families and forced husbands etc can do it with little to no consequence. women can be easily controlled, legally, and held back and so there’s no need for harsh laws against lesbianism. bc harsh laws against women already exist and already remove all power and autonomy from women. so i think it’s ultimately a combination of both. love between women is mythologised and doubted and desexualised on one end, and women were/are already so heavily controlled & oppressed that it makes lesbians thriving basically impossible on the other

[marzipanandminutiae]

it just seems strange how many people are being weird *to you* about abby cox’s video… when it’s (imo) quite a lovely video. as an afab nonbinary person, i’m so so interested in her discussion of how people like me would have realistically navigated the past, and it’s not like she doesn’t acknowledge them! it’s just that the options were more limited than a lot of media presents them, but that’s what history IS and it’s not insensitive to discuss how real people lived realistic lives.

also you always get SO many asks when a topic like this comes up, it’s as though you’re the historical costuming rep for tumblr and people want you to defend them for perceived slights

I think it was just one person who sent several anons over the course of the day, in response to another person who asked why I didn't like L*ttle W*men 2019. I mentioned not liking that they put Jo in menswear from the waist up when they claimed historical authenticity and that choice- while not something that could never have happened; GNC women did exist, and like Abby Cox, I never claimed they didn't -doesn't make sense in the specific contexts in which they applied it.

But yeah, the vitriol over that video never made sense to me. Everyone seems to firmly believe that she basically said "screw masc-presenting women" and that's just. Not what it is at all? There's an entire section of the video about women who DID wear conventionally masculine clothing in the 19th century! She praises the costuming in G*ntleman J*ck (censoring for the tags) for threading the needle re: reflecting Anne Lister's masculine presentation but still acknowledging that she had to make concessions to the world she lived in!

(And don't even get me started on the whole Mary Wollstonecraft tizzy. Yes, she was a "quote unquote feminist" because the term "feminist" didn't exist yet and has connotations today that would be inaccurate to apply to her. Current scholarship usually calls her a "proto-feminist" or finds a more cumbersome but precise way to describe her views. Yes, she did say "cringey" things about women and fashion- namely, that the only reason women showed an interest in dress was that their Minds Were Caged By The PatriarchyTM. She was human. She was fallible. Why is that a sin to say?)

I don't know. I'm happy to offer my opinion on such things any day, but you're right- that particular Anon certainly was determined to Win the discussion, and waxed more than tiresome by the end.

#ask #anon #historical costuming #discourse #historical fiction

[anjellynajolie]

gentleman jack s1

HITS SO HARD. the negotiation of intimacy between Anne and Ann. Ann’s crippling insecurity after she doesn’t (in her words) give Anne Lister “what she wants” is so real. Anne’s miscalculations with their reputation among their mutual contacts too, how her moves to appear pristine misfire. the HOLD internalised christian morality has on Ann spiralling into that outburst “it’s wrong, it’s against god, it’s queer!” and Anne saying “It must occur to you, presumably, hopefully, occasionally, that I have feelings too, that are affected when you say such things.” (Remember how earlier Ann also said: “I rather die than people know what we are.”) IT’S SO COMPLICATED AND PAINFUL AND INCREDIBLY REAL. Amidst it all I really like how they characterised Anne as wanting the basic dignity of not being, like Ainsworth himself, a fornicator, cheater, and so not willing to accept (any more) having surreptitious relationships with married women -- this being sealed by her repeated devastation/ (trauma?) of losing her lovers to marriage with men....

Also, to this last point about Anne’s desire to have what everyone in society is able to have--- I am crying because that somehow makes me feel more comfortable in myself given that my own lesbian relationship takes the more conventional form like domesticity and commitment, or in the case that I admit a desire to be blessed by god/family; it reassures me that these qualities are not CLAIMED by heterosexuality though they appear to be through the hegemony of heterosexuality, and so they do not need to be renounced by lesbians in order for our relationships to have a kind of alternative queer capital. I can’t fully convince myself of this for other reasons, but seeing Anne’s reasoning with this -- trying to secure a marriage with another woman in the most conventional religious way for herself -- is a starting point for a more balanced negotiation of these things. 

#thoughts #text post #gentleman jack #gentleman jack season 1 #anne x ann #mine #text

[arbor-tristis]

I think the comparison Anne makes repeatedly this season is interesting - is that most people would not question her actions if she were a man. Which is true enough. But also.....yikes you don't WANT to act like a man usually does

Like the way she treats Marian. The toxicity in her relationship with Ann, where she is shown to veer very close to condescension. The reckless, thoughtless ambition that will probably ruin your family. Her conservative, elite politics that have ironically always been aligned with hetero-patriarchy. Just. Yikes.

I've said it before, but this storytelling is a challenge to the audience. How much of the real Anne Lister can you really handle? And it's getting hard.

#gentleman jack spoilers

[jewishbarbies]

are you for fucking real??! i am actually so disappointed right now... louisa may alcott has just a similar experience to any lesbian back in the days in a world where we had nowhere to breath as women, let alone if attracted to other women, like... most lesbians whose writing we have succeeded obtaining now expressed the same sentiment about feeling like nature fucked up because DING DONG homosexuality was not seen as normal or even talked about!! It could be referred as being "inverted" which is basically yes being "in the wrong body" but as in "you're wrong for liking women as a woman and being masculine, that's not what a lady should be like"! Take someone like Anne Lister and that was the same! Or maybe you're willing to believe all that lesbians have always been through history is trans men?! How separated do you have to be from lesbian culture and history to not see the obvious here?? Hell world....

“or maybe you’re willing to believe all that lesbians have always been through history is trans men?!” fucking listen to yourself. nowhere did I ever say that lesbians were all trans men. I literally said that wanting to be a man does not inherently make you just a lesbian because gender identity is not always linked to your sexuality and everyone is different. you labeling everyone a lesbian and a tomboy because you can’t accept when women in history actually might be trans is something you need to go work on so you can stop berating people on the internet who specifically told you to go away. fuck off, you dumb fucking terf.

#Asks #anonymoose #literally every time I said dni #to TERFs and radfems #who is in my notes and inbox?? #those dumb motherfuckers #but yes I’m a misogynist bc I don’t believe all women are just lesbians #and none are ever trans bc patriarchy #right right right