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yellowmagicalgirl · 3 years

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Hey, how do you and other Krexie shippers work around the age gap? I mean, I ship Krexie and have my own headcanons, but I'm curious to see what others have done.

I feel like I answered this before several months ago, but I don’t feel like finding that post so I’ll answer again. The full answer to your question is a short essay (and that’s without including the footnotes) so I’m gonna put it under a cut. This is based upon my own experience in the fandom, and the krexie circles I frequent are the ones on FFN, AO3, and of course, here on tumblr. Abuse and grooming (in the context of real people) will be talked about below the cut.

TL;DR I’ve seen three main ways of dealing with the age gap: ignoring it, aging Krel up, and aging Douxie down.

Ignore It

This one actually encompasses two different methods. The first of the two is to treat one or both of the boys’ ages as nebulous, with the maturity level of “teenager” and nothing more explicit since Douxie is about nine centuries old and Akiridion royals live for centuries Krel’s exact age is unknown. In this case, the age of one or both of the boys won’t be mentioned aside from being hundereds of years old. In addition, at least on Douxie’s end, this is somewhat canon. Fun fact: Douxie never calls himself a college student, and neither does Archie. Likewise, neither of them call Douxie 19. That was Steve, who deserved far better of a character arc than just to be the idiot that he is in Wizards. However, even though he deserved better Steve is not a reliable source of information on Douxie’s age, but Douxie and Archie are. In Wizards, the only information Douxie and Archie give on Douxie’s age is that he’s about nine centuries old.[1]

The other method of ignoring the ages is to treat Douxie as a 19-year-old (ignoring the immortality) and Krel as a 16-year-old, and to mention one or both of their ages. Their ages are ignored due to one or both of the following reasons: for one, in real life a three year gap between teenagers doesn’t automatically mean the older person is a predator. It’s something to be cautious about, and the younger person really needs to have people they can trust since if the relationship does turn toxic they would have less power and thus be in more danger (usually, though it is possible for the younger person to be more dangerous to the older one), but that doesn’t automatically mean something bad will happen. The other reason to ignore the boys’ ages is because honestly? If someone needs non-canon ships to tell them which relationships are healthy and which ones are dangerous, then their parents/guardians and teachers have failed them. Fanfic authors, fanartists, and other people creating/consuming fanworks on the internet are not responsible for educating random people on the internet. In fact, they and their content are not responsible for if a random person is abused, even if the abuser uses fanworks to groom the victim. It’s the fault of the abuser for being abusive.[2]

Out of these two methods, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen more using the former method of ignoring than the age gap than the latter.

Age Krel Up

This, again, has two different methods. The more common method is to have Krel (and the other Arcadia Oaks High students) age naturally, until they’re at an age that the fanwork creator is more comfortable with having krexie at. These types of fanworks take place years after the events of Wizards. The other method is to create an au where Krel (and likely the other Arcadia Oaks High students) were already the age the fanwork creator is more comfortable with when Douxie and Krel first met. I, personally, have created a lot of content for the first method, and I’ve seen other people use this method as well. My fake marriage au utilizes the latter method, and this method would also work for au’s where Douxie and Krel are both adults when they meet but the au does not follow canon.

Age Douxie Down

This one also has a basis in canon, though I haven’t seen any other krexie shipper use this method of dealing with the age gap. I, personally, use this whenever I want to make krexie content that’s compliant with Trollhunters and 3Below but also do not want to deal wit backwards time travel because I hate backwards time travel. However, someone should write an au where Douxie and Krel are human high schoolers whose biggest problem is being gay for the guy attending your rival school.

Now, while Douxie and Archie gave Douxie the vague age of about 900 years old and Steve made the assumption that Douxie was a 19-year-old college student, Trollhunters actually went out of its way to show that Douxie was a high school student.

In season two episode 10, Mary reveals that she was dating a student from Arcadia Oaks Academy, and Eli remarked that that was their rival school. I was in high school when Trollhunters was airing, and let me tell you: high schools do not have rivalries with colleges. Arcadia Oaks Academy would have to be a high school, or maybe a k-12 or 6-12. However, it’s far more likely that Arcadia Oaks Academy is a high school with the same age range of students as Arcadia Oaks High. In season three episode 1, Mary excitedly tells Claire that a student from Arcadia Oaks Academy is at Arcadia Oaks High. This student is Douxie, and unless I’m remembering wrong he also mentions attending the Academy. Unless Mary knew all along that Douxie was a wizard and was trying to give him a cover story for why he was hanging out at Arcadia Oaks High only for this information about Mary to be cut from Wizards due to time constraints, there is absolutely no reason for Mary to lie about Douxie’s age to Claire. The fact that Douxie was considered to be a high schooler by most of the fandom (some people had been on the train of “he’s a centuries old adult” for a long time) is why the krexie fanworks created pre-Wizards are all treating Douxie like a high schooler. (Yes, people shipped krexie (or at least consumed/produced fanworks for the ship) before Wizards came out. I have my fic on AO3/FFN and other people’s comments to prove it, as well as some fanart saved to my blog. Sadly, some of the people are now antis, and one them has now harassed at least one krexie shipper.)

Personally, when I age Douxie down, I age him down to 17. Only 17. Not 17-plus-several-centuries-without-aging. In-universe he may try to call himself 1492 years old, but he’s really just 17. However, as I mentioned before, if I’m aging him down to 17 then I’m also completely ignoring the backwards time travel aspects of Wizards. And, by doing that, I end up really changing the lore of Wizards. If you would like more information for the timeline I use when I age Douxie down, please refer to this ask.

In Conclusion

Thank you for reading this. These footnotes aren’t nearly as on topic and are more of a ramble.

[1] Re: Douxie having a really vague age of nine centuries. If you take enough chemistry and physics (but in my experience especially chemistry) courses, you will have it drilled into your head that 900 years old could really be anywhere from 850 to 949 years old. So, while 919 is definitely possible in the age range given by the age of “about 900″, it’s really a give-or-take number. However, if we truly want to be accurate, then if we choose to have Trollhunters take place in the 2016-2017 school year, choose to have had the moppet been between 16 and 19 years old at the Battle of Killahead Bridge, and we consider that the late 12th century (aka the time period of Wizards... supposedly, considering that it is not historically accurate) to be the latter half of that century, then Douxie would have to be somewhere between 834 and 886 years old. If we want a 16-year-old moppet and for the 900 years to be an accurate case of rounding, then the Battle of Killahead Bridge would have needed to be in 1183 at the earliest, which is accurate for the description of late twelfth century. If Douxie were to really be 919 in 2017, then the Battle of Killahead Bridge would have needed to take place somewhere from 1114 to 1117, aka the early twelfth century.

[2] Re: the argument that fanwork creators are not responsible for if an abuser uses their content to groom a victim. When I was a kid, the big scare was that strangers would lure off innocent children with candy. We were told not to go anywhere with a stranger, even if they had candy (or puppies, kittens, etc.) I don’t know how many kids have been hurt by strangers promising candy, nor do I know if this is something kids are still being warned about, but I do know that there isn’t some campaign against candy companies for daring to sell candy that an abuser would use against kids. This is because, as horrible as children being hurt is, it’s not the fault of the candy companies. It’s the fault of the abuser. And likewise, it’s not the fault of a fanwork creator if someone else uses their content to harm others.

PS: A side note since we’re discussing ages. I’ve been in this fandom for years, specifically on tumblr, AO3, and FFN as well as one of the discords. It wasn’t until the krexie discourse started that I started seeing people start calling Krel 14. I had seen people call him 15-16 in the past, because the fandom wasn’t sure if he and Aja were twins or had a minimum of a 9-month gap (assuming, of course, that Akiridions reproduce like humans do). That being said, before the discourse I never saw anyone treat Krel (or Aja, for that matter) like he had a canonical age. 14, however, seems to be something that stemmed from the wiki. You know, the same fan-run wiki that claims that Nomura’s full name is Zelda Nomura even though nowhere in the shows, books, games, or graphic novels is she ever called by that name. Yeah, the Arcadia Oaks-Pedia is not a reputable source. I’m going to give the wiki editors the benefit of Hanlon’s razor and hope that they were just going “well, since Krel is Aja’s younger brother and we’re assuming she’s 15-16 years old like the rest of the protagonists he must be 14-15 years old” and it was only after that that antis took the idea of Krel being 14 as canon and then ran off with it to be cruel and cause chaos.

#answered ask #anonymous #krexie #tales of arcadia #trollhunters #3below #toawizards #krel tarron #hisirdoux casperan #fandom discourse #child abuse #abuse tw #grooming #if i wake up to people being dicks about this i will be so mad

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effdragonkiller · 3 years

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Jetii as an insult and why it might not be so bad.

I read this post by kaasknot last night and it literally consumed my brain.

It's an excellent examination of the linguistic quirk that differentiates Mando'ade from Jetii and why that might be.

Except, I had a seriously hard time dealing with the ramifications of Jetii being a slur. Because kaasknot was right, the vast majority of fanfiction that ships a Mando with a Jedi is going to be pulling their Mando'a from mandoa.org without any context. The implications it left for fandom were uncomfortable. So, I'm writing an argument why 'ner Jetii' as an endearment is okay. 1- I mean so long as you ignore that it's like calling your significant other by their political or religious affiliation. So, calling someone 'my Buddhist'.

1) The -ii suffix in Jetii is probably from the word aruetii, meaning traitor, foreigner, outsider. But instead of focusing on the definition as traitor, I would like to use it for outsider, because here's what I think: Mando'ade are a clan based people who have a habit of holding themselves distinct from the rest of the galaxy. This isn't rare, the Jedi do this as well, but consider the additional evidence of the civil war between the traditionalists and the New Mandalorians.

There's a lot of evidence that culturally, Mando'ade aren't good at seeing other perspectives. The New Mandalorians tend to look down on anyone who follows the old ways and the traditionalist tend to see the pacifists as having given up everything that made them Mando'ade. In fact, the adoption rite for Mando'ade is called the 'gai bal manda' which literally means the 'name and soul'. Implying that by not being Mando'ade that you don't have a soul.

That's some next level othering, right there. Not uncommon in human history; there is a large body of evidence that supports the fact that many tribes and clans in human history are only known by what other people call them. There own labels for themselves often something like ‘the people’. This is the same difference between Mandalorian and Mando'ade in canon. I don't think that there's any evidence to contradict the idea that the only people Mando'ade might refer to as 'the people of' are themselves.

2) kaasknot talked about how 'traat'ad' might be a less insulting term than Jetii, but I have some objections. 1- I think that the Jedi would be more uncomfortable being called the children of the force than being labelled an outsider. The Jedi are outsiders. They know, understand, and perpetuate their status as outsiders so that they can more effectively work as a neutral authority. But in Mando'a the 'traat' in 'traat'ad' comes from the same term used in special forces, squad, and army. The force denoting physical violence, and I think that Jedi, who hated being Generals and who praised those who could come to a non-violent solution, would shudder at being called 'traat'ad'. 2- Regardless of whether the -ii suffix is insulting or not, Jetii is closest to what the Jedi call themselves. There is more respect in trying to say the right word with the wrong accent than calling an entire group of people something else. A- Let's not even get into the fact that 'Egypt' is 110% the wrong name for the country with the ancient pyramids and why, in an era of being politically correct and emotionally inclusive, has it not been changed?!?

3) Language changes, and different words mean different things to different people. There are a lot of excellent examples of this in English. Chuffed, for example, means two completely contradictory things at the exact same time. And to be gay originally meant to be happy, merry, and joyful. It had nothing to do with sexual orientation the way it does now.

Linguistic drift happens in real languages. It's not even particularly rare. If Jetii was originally a slur against the Jedi formed from over a thousand years of conflict between Jedi and Mando'ade, that doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

Additionally, context is also important, because while the Clone Troopers are raised with the Resol'nare as much as possible they aren't actually Mando'ade. They were created by Jango Fett as part of a plot against the Jedi by the Sith and were trained to revere the Jedi who would lead them into battle. That is an enormously different context than almost anyone else saying the term in canon.

So in summary, basically, if you want to use 'ner Jetii' as a term of endearment, go for it. Just, you know, maybe think about the fact that it's like calling someone 'my Buddhist'.

- In case you got this far, no I don't have footnotes or references. Yes, I know this is bad essay-form.

I made a lot of assumptions in this about canon or based on evidence from what is now the Legends universe and therefore no longer strictly canon... I don't really want to hear anything about it.

If you have made it all the way to the end and still haven't read kaasknot’s much more well written post on Jetii as an insult, it can be found here.

#mando'a #mandalorian culture #mando'ade culture #Eff's opinion #Eff thinks too much #Eff has opinions about everything

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marshmallowgoop · 4 years

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So is ryumako canon now that in kill la kill if mako blatantly says her heart belongs to Ryuko?

I’m not anyone with the authority to answer that question!

Y’all, I am just an overseas fan of a six-year-old anime. Nothing I say has any official merit. Not even in the slightest! What you see as canon is totally and completely up to you. Everyone will interpret a work of art differently. Everyone will interpret statements from the creative team behind a work of art differently.

I don’t mean to make assumptions, but I get the sense from this message that you have already made up your mind on the matter. You don’t need to ask me to confirm anything! I’m just another fan. My thoughts are simply my own.

But if you’re curious about my perspective, I’ve explained my feelings under the cut.

First, a disclaimer. I personally believe everyone should talk about LGBTQ+ representation in the media. It affects all of us. But I also believe it’s important to note where you’re coming from.

So: this particular representation is near and dear to me because, while I am questioning my sexuality, I do identify as a woman-loving woman. However, I am not Japanese. I have never even been to Japan. I don’t at all claim to understand how LGBTQ+ identities are viewed and treated there. I can only provide my own personal perspective as a western woman.

All this said, my answer to the question is no. I don’t believe this line in the game—which is actually coupled with another line where Mako outright refers to Ryuko as “the one she loves”—confirms the pairing. It does, however, confirm to me what I had already thought pretty obvious: Mako 100% has the hots for Ryuko. I really disagree with non-romantic interpretations of the line. In my mind, it is literally spelling out, in big, bold letters, that Mako is romantically in love with Ryuko.

But as arguments surrounding the Ira/Mako pairing go, one person having a crush on another person does not make the two a couple. I think it’s also pretty obvious that Ira 100% has the hots for Mako, but that doesn’t mean that Iramako/Gamako is a confirmed pairing.

Again, I can only share how I personally feel. I can’t speak for anyone else. But personally, unless we get some new statements, I won’t think any romance is confirmed (no matter how much I like the romance in question!) Studio Trigger staff have stated repeatedly that no ships are canon: here, here, here, and here (6th post from the top) are sources. I personally don’t feel comfortable promoting something as canon when it’s outright denied by Word of God.

I’ve already written heavily on my feelings regarding Ryumako. Perhaps here and here (point 6) are the best of it. I won’t make this post too long by delving deep into my complicated relationship with the pairing.

But I’m really disappointed with a lot of the response surrounding my post on Mako’s line in the game. I was excited about the line because it’s Mako blatantly, unabashedly declaring that she loves Ryuko! Yes, like that! It’s not played as a joke. It’s not treated as something shameful or weird or abnormal. I thought it was great!

And yet, there was so much anger in the responses. “People who don’t think Ryumako is canon don’t have rights.” “Fuck everyone who said Ryumako wasn’t canon.” “You’re just fucking lying to yourself if you don’t think they’re canon.” There was vengeful response after vengeful response.

And it’s completely and totally fair to believe that Ryumako is absolutely a canon pairing and that thinking otherwise is offensive and problematic as hell. I don’t want to discount that. But it felt to me that there was less happiness and excitement about the line and more… just a desire to be right. A lot of it seemed less about loving Ryumako and more about shutting down other fans for liking other pairings or feeling differently about the LGBTQ+ representation in Kill la Kill.

Which, as a wlw, it is so tiring that anyone who doesn’t agree that a LGBTQ+ pairing is canon is branded some “awful straightie” who just “hates the gays.” It is so much more complicated than that. And how does this bitter attitude help anyone? It doesn’t! Regarding this situation in particular, I’m gay, and I’m so nervous to interact with hardcore Ryumako shippers. Is this really the fandom environment we want to foster?

Well, maybe it is….

I guess I just wish everyone could get along. I know there are a lot of nuances in these situations, and I can’t make sweeping, generalizing statements. But this is fandom, y’all. It is supposed to be for fun. All the anger I see just… gets me down.

But tl;dr, I think Mako’s feelings for Ryuko are definitely confirmed with the line, but I wouldn’t say that confirms Ryuko’s feelings for Mako.

That’s just me, though! Anyone else’s interpretations are just as valid! We’re all fans here!

#Anonymous #replies #ramblings #the discourse #serious talk #i asked for someone to read a kinda similar essay i'm planning about promare and kill la kill #but i probably should have asked someone to read this too...#i hope i've explained myself respectfully #kill la kill

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bluerosesburnblue · 5 years

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Bless that post. I love the aro/ace headcanon, but I also love all mc/charlie shippers. Basically, I'm very very Pro-Ship and like... I've seen the people who headcanon aro/ace charlie get really hostile and weirdly aggressive over it. I'm pretty sure one person even deactivated their account because they dared to call out the harrasment and were in turn harrassed themselves. Fandom is supposed to be fun and shipping should never be about activism like some ppl are trying to do and it boggles me

Thank you. Given the extremes people go to on this site, it’s nice to see someone else who agrees with me about keeping these things measured and respectful

Honestly, my breaking point the other night was that I happened to see an anon on one of the really popular blogs in the fandom. All they said was that they were a fan of the ace headcanon, but they saw a lot of the negativity in the tag in regards to the Charlie/MC ship and were worried that if they started posting their stuff regarding it that they’d get backlash or get seen as insensitive. The whole thing looked like someone who was very anxious asking someone they respected if they thought it would be appropriate. They probably trusted that blog to be mature and give them some reassurance

The response they got was basically (I’m paraphrasing here) “The ace ‘headcanon’ is undeniably canon, you can still post your thing but just know that it’s not canon and nobody has to like the fact that you posted it. I don’t know what hate you’re seeing, but I haven’t seen it and I don’t think it exists.” Which is, like… denying that anon’s experience and brushing off their fears is just a shitty thing to do to someone who was obviously nervous and looking for reassurance. And also completely wrong. Just because you can read that interpretation into a canon line doesn’t mean that your interpretation is completely canonical. Dating and romantic or sexual attraction are not the same thing. And it’s bad enough that that response is getting a good amount of notes

But what really pissed me off was a response I saw from someone else on that post. This person immediately accused that anon of intentionally overreacting and fishing for sympathy, crossing the line by asking someone they respected about their opinion of the discourse, and trying to deny asexual people representation. And they had the nerve to go on about how “people you thought were nice are turning out to be shitty people.” And then told that anon to grow up

That is absolutely disgusting behavior. Even if Charlie was canonically aro/ace, it would be going too far. Nobody knows anything about that anon, because they’re a goddamned anon. For all anybody knows, that anon could’ve been a kid or young teen who legitimately wanted to be respectful to the ace/aro community and thought it best to ask someone they respected what their opinion was. This is exactly what I was afraid was going to start up. That the second somebody showed that they didn’t agree with the popular interpretation or, god forbid, admitted that they don’t know enough and wanted another opinion, that they’d get slammed and harassed, with accusations made about their character. A character that we can’t even truly know because this is the internet and it’s easy to read whatever you want into these things. You’re not “educating” anyone, you’re just making them not want to learn

And then that original blog had the gall to tell that anon that they didn’t see any reason why they’d be afraid of harassment. When that aggressive, uncalled for response was a response on their post

The best part? Not only did that anon directly cite a post that had bothered them in a later ask, but they admitted that they were ace and questioning aro and just didn’t see why that line made the interpretation canon

And the person who slammed them? Not aro/ace.

As far as I can tell, that anon never got an apology. The sidequest isn’t even out yet and the fandom has already devolved into people making assumptions and yelling over actual ace people over their own representation and refusing to see a problem with it. In fact, they think they’re in the right because quite a few popular blogs agree with them. That anon could’ve been a kid. Are we really going to scream at people who might be kids over a headcanon?

Not a single, goddamned person made any effort to say that that person was out of line. Not a single person saw a problem with that response. I’d say it was just that one person in the wrong, but I’ve seen equally harsh and aggressive responses by other people out there, too. This isn’t a situation of one person being an asshole (if it was I might’ve just called them out, specifically), they just happened to be the one to tip me over the edge

That’s what’s pissing me off about this situation. If someone is legitimately so scared to post something completely harmless that goes against the popular interpretation, then there is a problem. There is a problem, that shouldn’t be ignored just because you might disagree with that anon’s opinion. People don’t get that scared for no reason. It’s awful and immature to ignore the problem. To pretend it doesn’t exist, or to support the response they got and double down just to make yourself look right

People are really getting this awful over a side character in a mobile game. Just back up and really look at that. A side character. In a mobile game.

Some people need to grow up, and it sure ain’t that anon. And I hope that if that anon ever sees this, they know that they’ve got my support and I’m so sorry that some people think asserting that their headcanon is canon is more important than an actual, living person

As for the “it’s canon do we really have to spell it out for you?” argument, uhhh… YEAH. Not them, specifically, but the source material does. Otherwise it’s not CANON. Canon is reserved for things irrefutably stated in the text not “all possible (or your favorite) ways you could interpret lines in the text.” When it’s widely accepted, that’s fanon. Canon: Charlie states that he doesn’t have time for dating because he’s busy studying dragons. Fanon: Charlie is ace/aro. We also need to destroy this false equivalency that dating and romantic attraction are the same thing. It doesn’t help anybody on either side

And no joke, I read a novel one time and the main character was so obviously ace to me. The whole thing was written from his point of view, and he was always questioning why people found romance to be so important. He wasn’t into any of the girls that flirted with him, he kissed his male best friend and said he didn’t feel any sparks, he avoided romance of all kinds even while questioning his sexuality. Well, come the end of the book, he realizes that he was gay and in denial and VERY in love with his best friend. It was adorable when they got together

But at the same time, there was way more evidence to suggest that that character was ace than there is for Charlie, and yet canonically he was gay despite that. Sexuality is something very complex and personal and the discovery of it no less so, so yes, absolutely, I think it needs to be stated in some way to be canon. Things can’t just be implied to be considered canon. Your assumptions may very easily be wrong, or not what the author intended. And even things that the author intended can be considered non-canon. Death of the Author is a real thing, after all. If it’s not stated in the text, it’s not canonical

If Charlie had said “I’m not interested in romance and don’t know if I ever will be” or something similar, then yes I’d say they had a basis for their argument. But that’s not what he said. Charlie says… basically what I would have if someone had flirted with me in high school. My suspicion is that something in JC’s contract meant that they weren’t allowed to make Bill, Tonks, or Charlie romance options, so they just reworded JK’s old interview when writing his dialogue to be more relevant to the quest material

And people using that interview as “proof” is especially funny to me since she only said that after denying the possibility that he could be gay because Dumbledore already was. You’re all really expecting this woman whose reaction to being asked if a character being homosexual was a possible interpretation was “Uh, no, we already have one of those,” to go around and confirm him to belong to an even less represented group? And do it tastefully? And then have half of these people who take that as canon also state that they don’t generally consider things that JK reveals outside of the source to matter?

Christ, people, learn the difference between canon, fanon, and Word of God. And then stop ignoring or harassing people for rightly calling out that you’re misusing the terms

#harry potter series #harry potter hogwarts mystery #hogwarts mystery #hphm #charlie weasley #ace charlie discourse #long post #harry potter hogwarts mystery spoilers #hogwarts mystery spoilers #hphm spoilers #i want some people to look long and hard at this and realize just how shitty they're being #i hope i don't have to write another essay about this situation i really do #but i can't just let how poorly that anon was treated go #not naming names because i won't be responsible for spreading more hate around #even to people i think deserve it #but this kind of stuff seriously needs to stop #my blog is a safe space for pretty much everybody #race sex age whatever i don't judge people for any of it #we're all just strangers on the internet #i just judge people for their actions and if you act like an asshole that's how you'll get treated #so have some respect for people you really don't know anything about #and remember that fandom should be FUN #if it stops being fun then someone has crossed the line #anon asks #liz's shenanigans

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dotthings · 5 years

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Okay, about this “g*ncest” thing that just cropped up which makes me feel like I splintered back to the year 2006 and aren’t we over this by now...what that is is a bona fide example of toxic masculinity attitudes at work and being valorized by a small number of fans, mostly female.

First off, as far as I’m concerned, you are free to enjoy or write any type of fic you want, I don’t care. I’m not judging your fic tastes. I won’t insult you as a human being, attack you, send anon hate, or put this post on your tags or even any shared tags. Which is more than antis have done to respect my shipping but whatever.

However I disagree with the idea that there can be no discussion when fandom reinforces certain biases or ideas and tries to normalize them, without realizing how they’re reinforcing some real world level stuff that needs to be questioned. The discussion itself is valuable if you aren’t being a dick about it.

So you know how D*stiel fans get accused all the freakin’ time, endlessly, ad nauseam “you don’t respect male friendships! male friendships are rare and precious commodities in the media! why do you have to ruin it by making it gay!” (Sorry I need a moment to stop laughing). When the fact is D*stiel fans openly own their slash and own the gay and fling glitter, they don’t tend to apologize for it, instead of trying to mask the fact that it’s slash. Nobody is denying that close platonic male friendships can exist, either. But guess what, it is outright not toxic masculinity to see past heteronormative defaults to see how shipping two male friends together and seeing the potential for romance instead of by default ruling it out just because people are the same gender. It’s just not. It gets concerned trolled into the freakin’ ground as reinforcing toxic masculinity. It isn’t.

Which brings us to this g*ncest thing which, I stfg I thought we’d left behind in 2006. It’s an old fandom term that has outlived its need and outlived the context of the mores in fandom and society at the time that created it, like its related fic label concept, “smarm.”

“Smarm” isn’t the same definition as “smarmy.” The fandom definition of smarm is fic that depicts two people of the same gender being emotionally and physically close who are not in love and the intent is not romantic and not slash.

In other words, gen fic.

It depicts a platonic friendship or sibling bond.

It’s..gen fic. But for some reason, some felt they had to call it “smarm” because either it’s difficult to grasp that two men can be physically or emotionally close without it being slashy, or, fans who wanted to slash but self-shamed for it. They wouldn’t just call it a slash fic. Just like, it’s not w*ncest it’s g*ncest!!! Which somehow seems to assume itself a fest safe for anyone who isn’t into incest and just wants to celebrate the platonic sibling bond and...no, really, no. Probably be smarter to just host a Sam and Dean Gen Fic fest, which I’m sure exists, and hey, something for everyone, I’m not saying the g*ncest fest shouldn’t be allowed to continue, just pointing out why some people are bothered by it for reasons other than “you are ship shaming meanies!!”

There’s a big aspect of shame in smarm, and I’m arguing, to g*ncest.

The recent uptick of intensity in SPN fandom where w*incest fandom stans determinedly turn every single canon Sam and Dean moment into incest, and insist every story, every fic, every image, every concept about Sam & Dean’s bond is emotional w*incest is part of this toxic masculinity thing, the g*ncest issue, the smarm issue. A Sam and Dean image, boom, incest! The brothers are so in love! D*stiel fans are considered horrible for, y’know, reading romance into a shit-ton of usage of romantic tropes, canon pining, plot and dialogue and long arcs that map to romantic tropes, even overt shout-outs from other characters to the idea that Dean and Cas are a thing, but if Sam and Dean so much as stand next to each other it’s incest ftw.

There is such a thing as pre-slash and I find it a whole lot less squicky than smarm or g*ncest. I kind of like pre-slash because it owns the fact that romantic relationships don’t always have to manifest as sexy times, but why did we even call it pre-slash, why not just slash at a G or PG rating? I think this is becoming more of the norm, with slash shippers unapologetically posting slash fic at a G or PG rating. Readers are free to read into whatever they want into a gen fic, but if the author ships it and intends to put romance into it, but it isn’t about how the characters have sex or even kiss, they’re still romantically in love and they’re going to label it slash or pre-slash. I don’t see the need for the “pre” in that any more. No they aren’t kissing yet, no they aren’t having sex yet, but they are in love nonetheless.

Let go of the idea that a kiss or having sex is the only way to verify characters being in love.

Toxic masculinity isn’t the removal of heteronormative goggles that were probably fused to our faces from birth because that’s how our society is and being capable of imagining that two male friends in a story can fall in love the same way we imagine a man and woman can.

Toxic masculinity is when you are so determined that men--be it friends or siblings--cannot be close and it be, in fact, friendship or sibling love. It’s the equating of all male intimacy with a sexual and/or romantic bond. And I feel that a false narrative’s been allowed to prevail in SPN fandom that D*stiel fandom is deeply guilty of this when it’s not, while other groups that are doing this chronically, get a free pass.

I’d say it’s a pretty major example of toxic masculinity to insist that platonic w*incest is a thing, instead of just, y’know, Sam & Dean loving each other as siblings without hints of a romantic or sexual element. It’s toxic masculinity to slap the -cest slapping on every-freakin’-thing and then claim you’re being ship-shamed because you actually gate-keeped against fans who really just appreciate the sibling bond and don’t need any -cest to appreciate how close Sam and Dean are and appreciate that bond, and it’s pretty toxic to keep flinging a trigger in people’s faces every five minutes, openly, as if you own the entire fandom, and insist canon backs you up when in fact it’s gently shut you down on multiple occasions, and then expect absolutely nobody to be upset at you ever, and if anyone gets upset they’re ship-shaming you. That’s quite a big amount of entitlement, to assume that people aren’t allowed to be uncomfortable with something like incest.

Especially when you try to force LGBT ships that are non-trigger into the same mode, force a false equivalency, thus fetishizing the LGBT ships, and get offended if someone points out why a differentiation is sensible and necessary.

If you’re into Dean and Cas’s friendship and don’t see any romantic element, that’s gen. No really. It’s friendship fic. That’s not pre-slash. That’s not platonic D*stiel. You see a friendship. There is no such thing as platonic Destiel. Now, this gets tricky, because while that is 100% valid to feel that way, D*stiel is reaching a stage where not-shipping it is cool and all that, but if you vehemently deny there is any reason for other people to see more to it, you’re kind of having to ignore a hella lot of canon to keep those heteronormative goggles fused to your face, and no I am not accusing people who don’t ship it of being homophobic. Or of unconscious biases of being homophobic. We all have them. Talk about it, don’t insult people or shame them, sometimes it just takes a little bit to get people to understand. Others will never get there no matter what. Depends on the person.

There’s any number of het ships where I have eyes, I can see canon intent, I see they’re into each other, but I don’t care and I don’t ship it and I might enjoy genfic about that relationship or have them wind up as friends, I don’t ship it. There’s non-canon popular slash fics I don’t feel it or see it. I don’t yell down its shippers though. Its that simple. My advice is just don’t go screaming down D*stiel shippers with why must you ruin their friendship or claiming it’s toxic masculinity and going on about the sanctity of platonic male friendship which is just such a rare and precious flower in the media (sorry. pausing to lmfao again).

I also literally do not care how you see Sam and Dean’s relationship or if you ship that. I honestly do not care and I don’t make assumptions about you as a person (your fandom behavior over your ship might make me decide things about you). But...it’s still incest. I’m not ship-shaming. It’s incest. Why does this have to be explained over and over. You can ship whatever you want and should be allowed to have safe spaces for it but this assumption that everyone has to be 100% cool with such an obvious trigger and societal taboo or they’re hypocrites who don’t really believe in the “ship and let ship” they believe in...come on. “Ship and let ship” doesn’t mean be inconsiderate and it doesn’t mean you have to be comfortable with every ship in the fleet.

But SPN fandom has this lingering thing it can’t seem to let go of where systemically, it thinks incest and an LGBT ship should be treated exactly alike, and it has this thing where incest is being intrusively slapped onto every-freakin’-thing about Sam & Dean in spaces where fans can’t avoid it and it’s not behind a cut tag it’s not labeled, and if you aren’t into it you get mocked, and if you don’t watch only for the brother bond you get mocked, and this is coming from many of the same people who think an LGBT ship is identical to incest and from many of the same people who get offended if you point out why an LGBT ship isn’t like incest, and who get offended people ship that LGBT ship as well as from generalized anti-shippers who treat being a non-shipper like a superior badge of honor and who reinforce the gatekeeping that virulent incest shippers aim at D*stiel shippers while valorizing an incest ship, but this breed of anti-shippers are in total denial about doing it. (Note the distinction between anti-shipper and non-shipper).

But taking what is actually just gen fic about Sam & Dean being emotionally intimate or showing physical affection and insisting it needs a -cest on the end instead of just, y’know, being about a sibling bond...that’s where toxic masculinity comes in. Isn’t one of the whole major points of SPN’s narrative to deconstruct these perceptions of masculinity? To debunk the idea that men can’t be emotionally intimate? And please miss me with the idea that shipping D*stiel is somehow contrary to this. D*stiel is a part of that debunking because neither Dean nor Cas act like the media stereotypes of what bi (or ace or pan or whatever Dean and Cas might be) looks like. They started as friends, and became emotionally close before SPN canon got into the zone where it seems a lot more serious about possibly openly vocalizing or consummating the subtextual pining. Friends-to-lovers isn’t insisting all friends must be lovers. It’s fans identifying something in this particular pair of friends and in the narrative, in the canon, and don’t discard it just because of a heteronormative default that buys a slow burn will-they-won’t-they for m/f but sneers that same-gender potential romance is delusional.

Likewise if it’s Dean and Cas and someone slaps some form of slash label on it while refusing to own that they ship it and refusing to own there could be sexual attraction, instead of simply saying “it’s a gen fic I love their friendship” would also an example of toxic masculinity ideas and probably a lot of self-shaming about seeing and enjoying the slash in the first place. Dean and Cas friendship enthusiasts and Dean and Cas shippers actually get along pretty well (assuming no one is acting like a dick) and that, I think, is because there is such a powerful emotional component to the ship, and Dean and Cas friendship enthusiasts tend to be non-virulent and tend to be open-minded about why the shippers see more in it even if they don’t.

This should be also true of w*ncest fans and enthusiasts of the sibling bond because again, massive emotional component as common ground, but I feel like what’s happening is the more intense and virulent w*ncest fans are trying to draw such a hard line that if you aren’t into incest, there’s no space for you. This goes hand in hand with the virulently pro-codependency fans, who romanticize mental illness and then can’t seem to figure out why anyone is upset with them, and who think that anyone who isn’t into romanticizing mental illness hates the bro bond so they’ve swept out plenty fans who adore the sibling bond with their virulence.

Personally I find uncomfortable when fans insist that gen fic about two dudes being close needs to be some kind of pick-your-fighter-label form of slash instead of just owning it’s a celebration of close male friendship. Bromance is a stupid term and IMO part of toxic masculinity too.

There’s also the erasure of the fact that D*estiel is one of the least smut-driven ships. A recent study of ships with the highest smut content found w*ncest at the top and D*stiel barely even rated, and here’s the ironic part: virulently anti-destiel w*ncest fans and ship shamey non-shippers slapped D*stiel with a default assumption that it’s all about fapping material and two dudes getting it on and you just want to make spn into a porno and accuses D*stiel fandom of fetishizing m/m relationships when w*ncest is at the top of the smut pile. No I am not shaming you for enjoying smut. No I am not saying that a ship is superior for being less smutty. I’m very clearly objecting to the shaming and misconceptions of D*stiel fandom, which are often willfully perpetuated.

This misconception has stubbornly stuck in spn fandom and it’s incredibly annoying. Please join us in the year 2018. When so much of D*stiel is Dean and Cas not having sex but just being ridiculous and making heart-eyes and in denial and trying to figure this out and maybe they brush hands and blush, it’s almost Victorian. (Y’know, like the canon ha ha. Oh wait that’s not funny I’m serious). A lot of D*stiel fans write slash fic so they can get them to talk honestly with each other.

So sure, have your ficfests how you like, but I think it’s worth at least pointing out that this fixation with slapping the -cest label on everything is an example of toxic masculinity concepts at work, is normalizing incest to a ridiculous degree, is de-normalizing fans who really just appreciate a sibling bond, what with the stans insisting that w*ncest is just another term for their close emotional bond, *splutter* I don’t watch SPN for ships how dare you instead of, y’know, having the balls to own the fact that they’re intrigued by the incest ship. They shove it everywhere and disown it all in the same breath.

#mildew

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