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LOUDER THAN WAR WITH NIGEL CARR 9.8.2022

TOYAH: How are you? NIGEL: Great, thank you. How are you? TOYAH: Oh really good, really good. You're not dressed for a heatwave. Where are you? NIGEL: Well, I'm sitting in a cool shed, a lodge in my garden so it's out of the sun first thing in the morning. Progressively hotter as we go through the day so I'm OK with that. If it gets hot I'll just take my top off. So how are you? You have had a busy few days, haven't you? TOYAH: Oh, I don't mind the gigs. I really love performing but the travel is a nightmare. Heathrow Airport on Saturday, all of us - Wet Wet Wet, me, Carol Decker, Chesney Hawkes, quite few others - were supposed to be on an 11 o'clock flight that got withheld by an hour So by the time we landed in Belfast I literally had to get changed in the car, run out the car onto the stage, do the show, run back into the car and get the plane back. I mean, it's just … I get so wound up by these things. The only time that you think aaah is when you're actually on stage! NIGEL: You can relax almost!

TOYAH: I can relax (they both laugh) People always say to me "you're so energetic" and I was just so fucking happy to be here NIGEL: Well, I saw some of the photographs over the weekend. You had Rebellion Festival. Thursday, wasn't it? TOYAH: Oh! Friday, it was amazing! NIGEL: I did Friday and Saturday but I was working on Friday. So I was at the gig and I apologise so … and then you had Durham yesterday? TOYAH: Yeah, Stone Valley (below) It’s been three amazing shows. R-Fest was breathtaking. My sound man didn't realise there was a sound limit. So for my first three numbers it was so loud it was breathtaking. And then someone came with a sound monitor and said could you turn it down, please?

NIGEL: Were you in the Empress Ballroom? TOYAH: I was on the Promenade. It was huge. I loved it NIGEL: I've got the setlist and everything and it looks like a really sort of fun show TOYAH: For me to be on the Promenade - I'm not a great performer at midnight, and when I've done that at Rebellion before, and you go on at midnight, I really feel it - it's quite hard for me to deliver my energy at that time. For me to be on in sunlight and it was very bright on Friday - with the Tower literally yards away and people were on the glass floor watching the show. I looked up and you could see people watching the show It was full, absolutely rammed and I loved it. It was perfect for me to do an alternate festival. Going back to my punk roots at four in the afternoon for me was absolutely perfect. And I love the audience and you could hear the waves, which for me was just orgasmic. You're just hearing them hit the shore while you're singing. It's just something that I want to experience again. I really enjoyed it every minute of it. And the audience was great NIGEL: What a colourful audience. Have you ever seen it? The spiky hair, the studs, the leather jackets

TOYAH: What I really loved is you have the people who really look like that. And then you have the Blackpool holidaymakers who were wearing funny hats with mohicans. You just thought should the twain ever meet like that? It was so hard because the real punks and the real mohicans are very protective of the how they live and what they represent, standing side by side with someone with a stick-on mohican. It was fascinating NIGEL: It really was and I was walking around the venue as well around the Winter Gardens and you could see all of the hotels and the punks were sitting in deck chairs out the front TOYAH: I loved it! NIGEL: It was just incredible. I've never seen such a colourful festival and I've been to Leeds and lots of different festivals, but where do you get such a concentration of just one mind, not one way of dressing yourself but a whole genre just represented so wholly in one place? It was incredible TOYAH: And for me, it made sense of Blackpool (Toyah on stage at Rebellion, below) because it is a hit and miss sometimes. The sun was out. You have these wonderful, diverse human beings who are always friendly. And they were everywhere. And it was the most perfect day and the most perfect world for me on that day

Because when you look back to 45 years ago, that would have been a very different story. You'd have had riots, there would be chairs being thrown. But this was harmonious. It was beautiful. And I just thought this makes sense of Blackpool. It was the perfect place to have the festival NIGEL: Oh, absolutely right. And I was thrilled to see the mix of audiences. You talk about the locals and the punks, but I was looking down from the balcony at Cockney Rejects and the mix of people down there. It wasn't just people in the 50s and 60s who remember punk the first time and actually if they did fall over they were helping each other up - not smacking the hell out of each other. There were kids there as well, 20 year olds

TOYAH: Very good disabled platforms as well. I can't bear it when people in wheelchairs are put right close to those speakers and they suffer for that. I looked out and I saw two fantastic platforms where they could really get the best view and they were safe. I thought it was very well designed NIGEL: Absolutely, I did as well. I thought it was fantastic. I just love the fact that when there was a skirmish in the mosh pit, there weren't people being knocked over TOYAH: They were holding each other up (both laugh) NIGEL: And another thing I noticed, and you'll know what I mean, is that there were people crowd surfing and they'd crowd surf to the front. And then like a kid with a sugar rush on a helter skelter they'd run round and do it again TOYAH: Yeah, it was great. It was perfect NIGEL: I absolutely loved it. So we're going to talk about predominantly - you've got the tour with Billy Idol coming up, which is a fantastic event for you. Can you tell us a little bit about how that came together and how you got the -

TOYAH: A bolt out of the blue. I'm slowly learning the history of this tour, that it had to be postponed because of Covid and that The Go Go's were originally opening and ... just a bolt out of the blue. I got a phone call saying can I fit these arenas in while I'm doing my Anthem tour? Because my album Anthem is being rereleased on the 9th of September so I'm out touring that and by some really strange coincidence I can fit every one of the arena shows in. I'm wildly excited - not only about Billy Idol and I've been performing “Rebel Yell” for 20 years now - NIGEL: I noticed that on your setlist and I was going to ask you when you were going to be included - TOYAH: God no! NIGEL: Can you imagine doing “Rebel Yell” and then Billy comes on and does it TOYAH: The whole of my set - “Mony Mony”, “Rebel Yell”, “White Wedding.” “Enjoy Billy Idol!” (Nigel laughs) NIGEL: It’s like telling the best joke at a wedding, isn’t it? TOYAH: Yeah! Shouting out the answer. But another thing that's really exciting me about this tour is Television and (their album) “Marquee Moon”

NIGEL: Absolutely fantastic. I loved that when it came out in ‘79. I devoured it. I think it was amazing to see that TOYAH: And I think it's so clever of Billy and his management to do that. Because everyone is going to hear “White Wedding”, “Mony Mony” and “Rebel Yell”, and Billy has quite an extended repertoire. And I think for him to add Television and to add me with my punk history it allows people to go into the genre that Rebellion festival goes into I can play the pop, I've got “Slave To The Rhythm” coming out as a single. So we can deliver the hits, we can deliver the pop, but what I loved about Rebellion and Stone Valley this weekend - I was able to do my very first songs, which are completely out there. And this is what I'm going to try and do with the Billy Idol tour - just do the whole 45 year journey in half an hour

NIGEL: Yeah, so you're going to be playing “It’s A Mystery”, “Thunder In The mountains” and that's a really clever thing, as you were saying, that Billy has done because you've got that New York cool going on one side and you've got the pop on your side And then you've got Mr. Arena himself Billy Idol in the middle, which, honestly, when I saw the venues I thought my God Billy Idol is huge still! The thing that hit me that he was playing all of those … the AO Arena (in Manchester) and all that sort of thing. That was a huge venue. So you've got 3000 - 4000, no, actually, on the front of the promenade sort of 10 000 people - TOYAH: It was at least 10 000 NIGEL: I think we sold 15 000 ticket tickets, but even in the Empress Ballroom for people like Cockney Rejects, The Blockheads - there were 3000 or 4000 people in that ballroom. That was incredible. But moving up to the arenas, you're going to be talking 15-20,000 people, easily TOYAH: Yeah. Billy is a classic name now. Like Alex Cooper, like Ozzy Osbourne

NIGEL: Yeah, they fill these big arenas TOYAH: And I think it helps that Billy is a very visual artist. He's great looking. His videos are fucking amazing. When you've got all of those qualities about your historic work I think you can easily fill an arena NIGEL: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, he's got such a rich history going right the way back to Generation X of course. So I believe that Robert’s appearing with you which I'm thrilled to hear. Is he going to punctuate it with some prog edge? How's it going to work? TOYAH: Robert and I start touring together October 2023 with "Sunday Lunch" but you have preempted something because we are doing a premiere to it with Trevor Horn at Fairport's Cropredy Convention this Thursday (below) NIGEL: Oh wow! TOYAH: We're in the Trevor Horn band and no one knows yet NIGEL: Can we say that?

TOYAH: Yeah! Well, my work with Robert – he is now part of the “Posh Pop” brand. Myself and Simon Darlow - we created that in lockdown with the “Posh Pop” album, which went to number one in about 36 charts. And 22 in the main chart. Robert is now part of the lineup, and we start writing “Posh Pop 2” in November. It's going to be quite a rocky album. So Robert and I are officially working together, but that's really coming in 2023

NIGEL: I'll talk about the videos later on, because I've got a few more things to go through. I just love the synergy of you two in the kitchen. It's just amazing, but I'll talk about that in a minute I just want to ask you a few questions to fill in a few holes and make the connection from the late 70s to now - so just indulge me for a second. You've always been a trailblazing woman in a man's world and an inspiration for so many Who did you take inspiration from in the late 70s - because you were a woman working in a very, very difficult industry, acting and then you jumped into singing through “Quadrophenia” and “Glitter”. So how did that come about and what gave you the inspiration and the guts and guile to push yourself forward? TOYAH: I always intended to come to London and be a musician. My kind of rather stupid intention was using acting as a stepping stone. I got spotted on the streets of Birmingham because I was dressing like a punk when no one knew what punk was - including me

I was a hair model, I made my own clothes and I was a hair model for Wella so my hair was pretty strange in 1975. I got spotted and I ended up starring in a half hour TV drama on BBC2 about a young girl who breaks into the Top Of The Pop studios to sing two songs NIGEL: That was “Glitter” TOYAH: “Glitter” and I had to write those songs. I'd had no experience of being in a band or of singing at a microphone until that studio experience. And then when that was seen, I was invited to join the National Theatre by which time I was 18 and that put me in an environment of musicians And I started to learn about the London punk movement and performers like Polystyrene and performers that weren't your conventional Farrah Fawcett - Majors model type looking women. They really inspired me because I'm barely five foot tall and at that time I was three stone heavier I didn't know how I was going to fit into the music world but punk opened the doors for everyone - all diversity, all body types. And it made it possible for me and I put a band together and started to do gigs when I wasn't onstage at the National Theatre, mainly to help me get over my stage nerves which I had until about 1990. I just pushed and pushed and pushed to get gigs

Back then (there was a) hugely healthy pub circuit. And eventually towards the end of the pub circuit time in my career we had 2000 people turning up every night blocking the roads. I still wasn't signed and Safari Records wanted to sign a “punk” act. So they signed me. No other label would touch me NIGEL: You were on Safari, but I didn't know any other bands on Safari. It wasn't a well known label at the time TOYAH: At the time you had Wayne County who's now Jane County. So historically, all of that catalogue with Safari but they also had Deep Purple NIGEL: Wow! And so that was the springboard into it TOYAH: Very much

NIGEL: But must have been tough. So you were spotted, but it still must have been some sort of fight to get yourself out there TOYAH: It's always been a bit tough. I think if I was 6'2" and looked like Elle Macpherson, life would have been much easier. But it's always been tough. I'm relentless. I don't go away. I got “Monkey” in “Quadrophenia” because I helped Franc Roddam out by putting John Lydon through the screen tests for “Quadrophenia” I didn't get a role and Lydon was absolutely astonishing on that screen test. He's a great actor and waiting to be discovered and I didn't get a job out of it and I just turned up at the production offices at Wembley Lee Electrics banging on the window of Franc Roddam’s office … “Give me a fucking job!!!” He called me in and he had Phil Daniels in the office with him and he said “well, if you can do the party scene with Phil now, you've got the job”. Well, Phil was in “Glitter” with me, I knew Phil. So we improvised the party scene there and then and I got the job but I think with Franc Roddam I was not the ideal person to play “Monkey”. But he knew I just wasn't going to go away and I was up and coming. I was an award winning actress. And I was a big name within London

But it's still tough, mainly because virtually every scene I've done in a movie I've had to be on a box to do a two shot (two people in a shot together) because I'm so tiny. And that does affect you, especially in the world of Hollywood where the average actor is six foot. So I’ve really need to push and persuade people that I am the woman for the job NIGEL: Yeah, but it's really about the ability. It's about the skill. It's about the delivery. It's not really about being five foot one or whatever, it's in there, it’s in you TOYAH: Yeah, it is but a lot of British actresses are small. Judi Dench didn't break big time into movies until about the mid 80s. Up until that point she's the world's leading stage actress, leading comic TV actress and then whoomp! Straight into Hollywood and she made it possible for smaller actresses - Imogen Stubbs, myself - to be a movies because suddenly people said the talent comes first NIGEL: Absolutely. Tom Cruise is reportedly quite short, but I believe he's 5'9"or something. In a man's world 5'9" is short TOYAH: In my world it's bloody tall! (they both laugh) NIGEL: It's way up here! (points up) TOYAH: (looks up) Wow!

NIGEL: I noted you've had 96 roles, it says on IMDb. I think they include TV as well. That's a lot and it begs the question what do you prefer to do? Do you prefer the sort of kudos, maybe it's more cerebral? Having to learn the lines and being in front of a camera or getting up on stage and wowing 15 000 people. Where does the heart lie? TOYAH: They both have such a quality about them. I love performing on camera, and that's probably the only acting I'll do now. I don't think I'm going to do stage again. Unless it's like the National Theatre where you only do four shows a week NIGEL: I saw you in Manchester (the stage play of Derek Jarman's “Jubilee”, below)

TOYAH: It's backbreaking doing eight shows a week and I don't feel my body can take that anymore. But as a performer to be in a state of performance, whether I'm singing or acting, is absolute nirvana for me. It's my commune with God, it's unbeatable and there is no choice between the two. I love going into an area of that life, that supernatural, and for me performance is supernatural. I could never give it up. I would go cold turkey and die. It's such a remarkably rewarding thing to do NIGEL: The part itself - the learning the lines, that immersing yourself into a character … is that what you're talking about? Or the people and crew around you, the support that you get. Is that what it is? TOYAH: What support? (Toyah cackles) NIGEL: (laughs) Well ... you know I mean TOYAH: I just won Best Critics Award at the Richard Harris Festival for “Give Them Wings” as Best Actress, which premiered in Leicester Square last week. I was working in five degrees in a silk slip in bare feet on the street in Durham in winter in 2019 when we shot that! The reward is for me the kind of schizophrenic escape

So when I’m learning lines and when I'm unravelling what the character is words give you every bit of information you need. It's like taking the best holiday to the Bahamas you can take because you don't know what the hotel's going to be like. You don't know what the weather's going to be like It's all about discovering something that is governed by words and I just adore it. When I'm on stage singing - the words and how you deliver those words and the breathing techniques you use to deliver those words just take you into a higher consciousness. And I just couldn't live without doing that NIGEL: Yeah. So actually, there's a lot to be taken from both. You can immerse yourself into acting, you can immerse yourself into the singing. I suppose with the singing you are singing more of your own words, your own creations and I guess that must give you extra. I can't imagine the feeling of writing something, a tune and words and having those people jumping around to it

TOYAH: And the word is immersion. It's total immersion when you're singing. It's not just about the breathing and the delivery. It's about listening. And you're having to listen to every member of the band and come back into timing, because once you get expressive, you move out of timing. I've only really learned in recent years to use a motion on the downbeat. So to finish a word quicker rather than hold the note because it has more impact And another thing is learning about impact - music doesn't always come from having the bass end revved up. It comes from the harmonic interaction between the guitar, the keys, and the voice and all of that. So you've got your foot right down on the accelerator when you're doing a gig and you never take your foot off it. With acting most of the time you're working to a camera with an ensemble of actors but the other side of the camera, you've got people scratching their asses, yawning, eating, texting on their mobiles, reading the newspaper and that is terrifying Especially if you've got to cry on cue, and you've got someone who's just got their finger up their nose in your eyeline. It is extraordinary and when you hear stories of the A-listers losing it on set, because someone is distracting them in their eyeline, it's quietly terrifying when you are carrying a whole day shoot that costs sometimes over 1 million pounds to run the film on that day. And you're dealing with someone in your eyeline who's texting or looking at porn on their phone. The responsibilities are huge, but at the same time the rewards are bigger

NIGEL: Yeah. You often go to the screenings and when you get to that it must be an amazing feeling to see how it’s put together

TOYAH: I never go to the screenings. With “Give Them Wings” (above, Toyah as Alice Hodgson with Daniel Watson as Paul Hodgson) I've got all these awards for it and its started to be available for streaming now. I will look at it now. But I have to say the context of the awards and the good reviews and for me the reviews have been phenomenal, makes it possible for me to watch it NIGEL: Absolutely. There's been a huge renaissance in punk and post - punk and all of that type of music. It's like your time has come again, isn't it? That everything sort of converged in this perfect storm and I follow a lot of bands and a lot of bands that have burst out of Manchester and they've helped bring back this post - punk wave I'm listening to “IEYA”, one of your core tracks and I love it and it sits slightly out of the “It’s A Mystery” “Thunder In The Mountains”. It's more sort of post - punk. It's more Siouxsie and the Banshees than anything else. It’s an amazing thing that this wave has almost hit perfectly for you

TOYAH: Yeah. I think the thing about “IEYA” and all my early stuff ... there were slight influences of prog rock in there - which was purely by mistake. I grew up in Birmingham. I was 11 when I saw Hawkwind and Black Sabbath, I grew up with Led Zeppelin. So all those influences were with me and when I discovered punk, what I discovered as a dyslexic was a form of music I could fit into but I still had in my memory the music I saw live for the first time “IEYA” started its life as an improvisation because we needed to do so many encores on our shows. In ‘77,’78,‘79,1980 ... We were that large. We’d do 10 encores. So we just came up with “IEYA” and we’d play it for 36 minutes like a kind of tribal trance NIGEL: It goes to your bowels and it can just go on forever TOYAH: Just goes on and on and on until people just pass out. I can remember one performance we did the band was so hot they were down to their underpants and Phil Spalding was vomiting in a bucket. It just was going on and on and on and we couldn't stop it. So “IEYA” started as a live improvisation in front of screaming punks

NIGEL: That's amazing. And just going back to the very early days - because I do a radio show and in anticipation of this interview I played “Victims Of The Riddle” and it's almost avant - garde in its construction and in the way that it's delivered. There's a big difference between “Victims Of The Riddle” to “It’s A Mystery”. That was a massive jump. How did that happen? TOYAH: “Victims Of The Riddle” was an improvisation at two in the morning. So Steve James, wonderful producer, two in the morning. I said "just play three notes". Keith Hale played three notes. We looped those notes because everyone was into looping then, it was the beginning of synthesisers I said "give me a microphone" and I did a 20 minute improvisation, which is on the re-release of “Sheep Farming In Barnet”. So everything about the single is in that improvisation. And then Steve James and Keith Hale edited it into that single so it is avant - garde. Totally avant - garde NIGEL: It really is

TOYAH: It is the most extraordinary vocal and a 20 minute improvisation. I have to say is fucking amazing! NIGEL: Yeah, it is. It's an amazing track. And I like I said I played it in the middle of the show in anticipation of this, I absolutely love it. But there's a big jump from that to “It’s A Mystery” TOYAH: Yeah. Keith Hale wrote “It’s A Mystery”. I contributed the second verse, but I was never, ever credited as that and I certainly don't earn royalties off it. But Keith Hale had a band called Blood Donor who I regularly sang with and I did a lot of demos for them Keith had written this long song called “It's A Mystery”. It had a 12 minute vocal at the top and a 20 minute instrumental and Safari felt that that was going to be a hit song for me. So Keith and I went into the studio with (the producer) Nick Tauber and arranged the into the single that everyone knows. So the record label Safari were desperate to iron out my avant - garde approach to everything NIGEL: Make it more pop

TOYAH: Make it more pop. I was complicit. I wanted success. Absolutely every other punk rocker around me was having major success so I was complicit in how that journey happened NIGEL: You immersed yourself in it and allowed yourself to be transformed into, well … they call you the Punk Priestess, don’t they? (laughs) TOYAH: Yeah NIGEL: With the big hair - who styled all the hair and everything? Was that from the hair styling days?

TOYAH: The big hair started with “Thunder In The Mountains” (below) when I was in a shoot with the very famous fashion photographer John Swannell, and he brought in Robert Lobetta, who is a hair designer and Lobetta had spent a week making these amazing peacock fans that they attached to my head and then we had to find a way of making that work live So live I would just back comb my very thick hair and have big sunflower hair, but I kind of adopted that with the makeup artist Richard Sharah on “Thunder In The Mountains” art work and never looked back. That really caught on NIGEL: It’s an iconic look. Like a huge peacock. It was just absolutely amazing TOYAH: And very, very satisfying at that time because it made look a foot taller

NIGEL: Yes, of course! Absolutely. Now, I have to ask you about "Sunday Lunch" because I watched some of the early ones and they were quite modest and then they got more flamboyant (laughs) TOYAH: We were learning as we went along NIGEL: You’ve got 430 000 people watching one video. It's incredible! TOYAH: Yeah. And we've now had 111 million hits. We discovered as we went on that heavy rock, and the more extreme the rock, like Rammstein and all those wonderful bands - the more views we'd get and we think it's the simplicity of the kitchen There's no production values. We do one take. Sometimes, like Alice Cooper's “Poison” we did 21 takes, but most of the time we do one take, and we just go with that. And some people prefer to listen with the sound off because they can’t bear the sound (Nigel laughs)

But we discovered … when we did Metallica's “Enter Sandman” and I didn't wear a bra and I was on the exercise bike we hit 10 million very, very quickly. And we thought we're onto something here NIGEL: A bit saucy TOYAH: We say it’s our “Carry On”. It’s rock’n’roll “Carry On”. I am the Barbara Windsor of rock and roll NIGEL: What I love is the way Robert sort of looks into your bosom and goes (shakes his head) TOYAH: Yeah. For Robert … he just likes having a hot wife. The way Robert sees it is “look, I'm Robert Fripp, I've got a hot wife”. He's not possessive or jealous at all. But he really does like me to look his ideal of hot which is very 1970s Benny Hill NIGEL: He comes across as such a lovely man. I remember when you came out of the jungle (on “I’m A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here”) and think Robert was waiting for you and he was almost in tears. You have this very special relationship that really comes across, not just in the media, but on those videos as well. You can tell there's true love between you. It's lovely to see

TOYAH: We are that cliche that we are soulmates and best friends and I think it helps that we are like chalk and cheese and we don't hold each other back. If he wants to go to the States for two months he goes, if I want to go off and make a movie for two months I go. There's never compromise and I think that helps us a lot NIGEL: What do you attribute that to, that relationship? I read somewhere that you lived in separate houses. I’ve read a lot for this interview!

TOYAH: For the first 20 years we lived in separate houses and then for the last 10 years we lived in the same house. And as of three years ago, we now have separate houses again. I just let him be what he needs to be. It's as simple as that. And he needs a hell of a lot of time alone. And funnily enough, I do too. And we we both give each other that space NIGEL: It's fabulous. I love watching your videos. I think they're absolutely amazing. And I look forward to the next one coming out and I wish you well with them. You said you were going to do some sort of extra stuff on those videos or a film or something. What did you say? TOYAH: In October 2023 we're touring “Sunlay Lunch” NIGEL: Oh, I see. You're going to do “Back In Black” and you're doing maybe “Poison”, all of those live on stage? TOYAH: Yes NIGEL: You have some special costumes coming for that tour then, have you? (laughs) TOYAH: Yeah. Basically it's going to be an absolutely stonking rock show, but it's all based around “Sunday Lunch”

NIGEL: Look, Toyah, it's been an absolute joy talking to you TOYAH: Thank you NIGEL: We are running out of time and I don't want to take up more of your time. I've loved talking to you and I really wish you well for the tour with Billy, I think it's going to be amazing TOYAH: I’m so excited! I love arenas! NIGEL: Bet you are! It will be absolutely great and it's an opportunity for all of those people to see, 1000s and 1000s of people in those arenas. You must be so excited! TOYAH: It's thrilling, absolutely thrilling. I think I excel, I'm better Toyah in that environment than I am at home. So I'm very excited NIGEL: Fabulous. Thank you so much, Toyah. Thanks for talking to me. A joy talking to you TOYAH: Thanks, Nigel. See you out there NIGEL: Take care! TOYAH: OK! Bye!

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toyahinterviews · 2 years

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XS NOIZE PODCAST WITH MARK MILLER 25.8.2022

MARK: In a career spanning more than 40 years Toyah Willcox has had Top 40 singles, released over 20 albums, written two books, appeared in over 40 stage plays and 10 feature films and voiced and presented numerous television shows. In this interview, Toyah talks about her upcoming tour with Billy Idol, touring her hit 80s album “Anthem”, her Sunday Lunch videos with husband Robert Fripp, acting and lots lots more Hi Toyah, welcome to the XS Noize podcast TOYAH: Thank you very much, good to be here MARK: You've had such an amazing career and you're still very busy so we'll have lots to talk about. But first of all, let's talk a bit about the Billy Idol tour. You’re joining Billy Idol on the October dates of his tour alongside Television. How much are you're looking forward to those shows? TOYAH: Really looking forward to it. Firstly, Billy Idol - I think he's a world icon and he has such an incredible career of music to perform. I've been performing “Rebel Yell” in my set for 20 years and I know the effect it has on the audience. I'm very I'm excited about that. Obviously, I won't be performing “Rebel Yell” with Billy Idol (laughs)

But I think it's a really great line up. You've got Television doing the whole of “Marquee Moon”, which is an album I bought when I first moved to London. It's a phenomenal album. And then I've got my set to open all of the events and I know I'm gonna have a lot of fun When you're on a multi-bill but you're not the main star it's really good fun, because you just go out there, you love the audience, you enjoy what you're doing and then it's over. You can relax. So I'm really looking forward to it on many levels. And I actually love arena shows. I love doing them. So I'm going to be in my element

MARK: You're well known for your image, so do you have an outfit planned ready to go? TOYAH: Absolutely everything is planned on the rehearsal, the setlist is done. The costume is ready, everything is and if you think I'm going to tell you … I'd have to shoot you afterwards MARK: What can fans expect? What sort of songs? A medley of hits really? TOYAH: Yeah, I mean, I've had well over 15 chart hits, probably a bit more than that and I'm only playing for half an hour. So what is that going to be? Eight songs, ten if we really kind of squeeze them in. It's got to be hits. I want to go right from the beginning of my very early punk hits, because I was number one in the first indie charts. So 24 months running when that first indie chart came out in ‘79 I was number one. I never left number one in that chart. So I want to include my punk hits, which not many of today's generations will know at all. But I want to go through a complete journey right up until the single I release next Friday, which is “Slave To The Rhythm”

MARK: Last Saturday you played Let’s Rock Northern Ireland alongside Adam Ant, Belinda Carlisle, Heaven 17, Howard Jones, Wet Wet Wet and many more. You went down really really well. Everybody thought you were brilliant. How much do you enjoy - TOYAH: I had a nighmare getting there. A plane was an hour late. I was with Chesney Hawkes, Chesney and I had to get undressed and dressed in the car. We got out the car, I walked on stage. I did my show and I had an extra two songs in the set that I wasn't aware of So I was announcing songs and the band was going “no, it's this!” It was so much fun. It was brilliant and the audience were amazing and then I walked off stage, got in the car and caught the plane back. I have never been so stressed in my life purely because of travel MARK: Well, I thought because it's maybe old friends like Adam Ant, who you go way back with, back to the Mayhem days and stuff like that but you don't get to see each other and say hi really?

TOYAH: I saw Belinda. I was flying with Wet Wet Wet. I was flying with Chesney, Carol Decker, the bass player from Wet Wet Wet. We had some of the Real Thing there with us. We know each other, we're all incredibly supportive and good friends, but we do only get to meet in airport lounges. So it was fabulous. It was really nice MARK: This coming September Cherry Red will release a remastered edition of your gold selling third album “Anthem”. The album reached n:o 2 in the UK charts and features the Top 10 singles “It’s A Mystery” and “I Want To Be Free”. What do you remember about making that album because it’s such a classic album?

TOYAH: It was a very busy time, because “It’s A Mystery” was an enormous hit before we even started the album. And it meant that we had to make the album in a very tight window of two weeks. So when the band were in the studio putting the backing tracks down they were sending me tapes every day to Norwich where I was starring in “Tales Of The Unexpected”. As soon as I finished that I got back to London and in the mornings I would write the lyric and the top line melody to what the band had created, go into the studio by 2pm and record that song. Sometimes I had to do two songs a day It was a fabulous time. We were absolutely riding on this incredible success of “It’s A Mystery” and the album was an absolute joy to make but boy, I wasn't getting much sleep. And we were trying new sounds, we were trying new arrangements and it was all happening in this magical 14 day period that we had. And touch wood it worked. It really worked. I've never known anything like it

MARK: I can remember watching your first Top of the Pops performance of “It’s A Mystery”. It's such an iconic 80s moment for me. So how amazing was it for you? What can you remember about your first performance on Top Of The Pops?

TOYAH: I was very nervous. I believe Adam Ant was on because he was number one. I think Joe Dolce was on with "Shaddap Your Face", Midge Ure was on. It's a long day and I went to theatre school. I started in theatre before I ever had hit singles. I've made movies, been at the National Theatre. So I know a lot about turning up on time, rehearsing and then delivering. So it wasn't a problem to me, but we'd arrive at the Top Of The Pops studios at 10.30 in the morning. You do at least five rehearsals on camera and then go to makeup. And then you're on standby for the live show It wasn't a problem for me. But on this day, I was quite nervous and completely overawed by the experience. Because Top Of The Pops was the one show that every generation watched for the whole of their lives. I can remember sitting in the lounge with the whole of my family watching Top Of The Pops in complete quietness. We listened and to suddenly be on this show and to know that I was going to have a really high chart position because of this show was just overwhelming and magical. If I only could pick 10 points in my life to take away with me and remember in the big blue sky … Top Of The Pops, that very first one would be up there. It was amazing

MARK: Yeah, it's definitely one of my favourites because all the reruns on Top Of The Pops, you see it now and again popping up and it's obviously on YouTube, it’s had millions and millions of views. It's fantastic. The outfit you wore on that show – you were supposed to wear something else instead? Was it that one? TOYAH: Melissa Caplan made all of my costumes from about ‘78 through to 1985. And the costume I wanted - she was making me a very special one. I think I'd already done The Rainbow. Let me have a think about this, because this is such a condensed piece of my history. I know that we played The Rainbow about January or February and I think “It’s A Mystery” charted towards mid-February. So Melissa couldn't get the costume ready in time for Top Of The Pops because we were all firing on all cylinders, kind of working through the night recording and still doing live shows and me filming as an actress

So I had what was a design made by Willie Brown (below), who did all the clothes for David Bowie when he did “Heroes”. It's a really beautiful dress and it's not a dress I would normally have worn other than in a photo session because I was still very much working at androgyny and not being too feminine. And I actually think this dress is responsible for my success as is the song “It’s A Mystery” itself because I looked so cute and so feminine. I wasn't scaring anyone on that first Top Of The Pops

MARK: Do you still have the outfit? TOYAH: I do. It has kind of organza shoulders and it’s starting to deteriorate but I still have it and it can be restored because all my costumes are going to go to the Victoria and Albert Museum. But it's something that can't see sunlight or the air anymore. It’s vacuum packed MARK: You're so busy. Last year you released “Posh Pop”, written and recorded during lockdown, it was your first album in 13 years. That's a great album, very uplifting. I love the opening track “Levitate” TOYAH: Oh, that's good! I like that track as well. It was lockdown. I am not someone who sits around doing nothing. So lockedown actually was the first opportunity I ever had in the whole of my career to just reassess and re-evaluate, like lots of people out there It was a chance to kind of reset who or what we wanted to be. And the silence of lockdown. And what I mean by that is no one was emailing me every minute and no one was phoning me. It meant that I could sit down at an instrument and start writing music. I took up guitar in lockdown as well

And “Levitate” was one of the first songs written because we wanted the song to be - Simon Darlow my co-writer (below with Toyah) and I - just about freedom, freedom of choice, about being able to leave the house, being able to write about a situation that was profoundly uncomfortable and quite honestly terrifying. So “Levitate” is literally about that word And it's also one of my favourite words that I can ever remember. When I was at school everyone was fascinated with this word. Levitate. Levitation. And there was a very famous saint, who became canonised, because he levitated while praying and I started to read up about him and ironically, he was Italian. I can't remember his proper name now. But it was such a problem for him that crowds would turn up during the services, during his holding service with his his flock and he would start to levitate and he said or it's kind of reported that he found it profoundly embarrassing that he was known for levitating

And you've got eyewitness accounts of this happening. So people would go along and I'm talking about mediaeval times. People would go along and record this happening, they would draw it happening, they would write about it happening, they would pass the stories to their children. I've just always loved that word. It's a word that says that we have so much potential, that we almost cannot control our potential. And that's where “Levitate” came from MARK: As much as the album is uplifting, the song “Barefoot On Mars” is about your mother's final days in the hospice. It’s very moving and and it's very emotional but it sounds upbeat

TOYAH: Yeah. I wrote the lyrics after finding out what happened to my mother. I was contacted by ancestry.com Christmas last year. Was it Christmas last year? This is the problem with lockdown. I've lost so much time. It must have been two Christmases ago. And we knew nothing about my mother, my mother never talked to us. She never told us about her history. We could trace back press cuttings on her because she was a child actress and a dancer and she used to get reviews from the age of 12 So I'd seen all of that but she wouldn't talk about it. But ancestry.com contacted me and they said “we need to talk to you and we need to have counsel in the room because you do not know about this - we have unearthed press cuttings” and it appeared that my mother witnessed her father murder her mother, but because my mother was so young she couldn't give evidence and she couldn't go to court and testify And I came back home after finding that out and I wrote the lyric for “Barefoot On Mars” and I wrote to Simon Darlow and I said “this is what's just happened to me”. And I've written this lyric and I went into the studio the next day, and he’d done the track. And it was so breathtakingly beautiful that we just recorded it there and then. That song came about very quickly

MARK: Yeah, it's a great lyric, great song. Along with your husband and guitar legend Robert Fripp you have over 110 million hits on YouTube with your Sunday Lunch series of weekly music videos. They're all brilliant. What inspired you to do these? And how did you get Robert on board? TOYAH: Well, again as a performer, as someone who's always worked on a stage to suddenly think that it's going to be longer than three weeks because the lockdown originally was only going to be three weeks and I'd be back out on the road and it was dragging on and on and on. And I just thought we're all equal in this. We're all in the same situation. And some people are alone and we have each other. So we posted a very short 29 second video of me teaching Robert to do the jive and he's so cute in it because he just can't do it

And that instantly got 100,000 hits within about five minutes and we realised there were people out there that just needed contact. So we started to do this every Sunday. And it just grew and grew and grew and slowly we realised why it was growing and it is because the world audience for rock music is massive, absolutely massive. And we kept it to the simplicity of this kitchen. It didn't used to be this kitchen, we'd work in other rooms around the house, but people identified on a Sunday lunchtime with their own kitchens. So that's why it became traditionally that MARK: I think from the first video a lot of people were saying you should appear on “Strictly Come Dancing”, that they would ask you? TOYAH: I know. No, no. None of those programmes are interested in me. So fair enough. I'm too busy anyway MARK: So you wouldn't do it?

TOYAH: I would but they've got to be interested in you. I can't phone them up and say I want to do it. It doesn't work that way. I'm very, very busy. “Strictly” has already started. I am touring “Anthem”, and I'm working with Billy Idol. You've got to be completely 100% available if you get any of those programmes and for me that's very rare MARK: You would be great on it, definitely TOYAH: I don't know about that. I'm 64, I think it's a very gruelling show to do. I'm not sure how I would cope with training and all those pivotal movements within your joints for 11 hours a day. I did go and see a recording of it all lockdown. And they did back to back shows. They did the live show on the Saturday and then did the show for the Sunday immediately after and I thought my God - this is so gruelling! MARK: Going back to your videos. How long does it take to put them together? And how do you choose which songs to perform every week?

TOYAH: Well, the songs have to have one vital ingredient and that's they translate on guitar. So I give Robert a whole list of songs every week that I think would visually really work very well. And then he kind of goes through all of them and see how they work on one guitar. Because he's not only playing lead lines, he's also playing bass lines as well, which is what's so remarkable about what he's doing. And if he can't make that work, we can't do the song. Sometimes I can encourage him to revisit an idea and say “look, I think you can do this on one guitar” and he'll give it a go and it works. But there are so many elements that we have to take into account Firstly, we have no production values whatsoever. We just come in. We have a few days rehearsal where we learn the song together. Then I do the setup. I work out what the trick is going to be within the setup. And then I bring him in, we sit down and we usually have the first take in one go. So there's a lot of kind of little bits that need to come together at the right time. And if Robert is worried about the song then it won't work

MARK: I enjoyed your most recent one. Ozzy Osbourne’s “Crazy Train” (above) TOYAH: I know! Brilliant! And he closed the Commonwealth Games last night and I'm 30 miles from Birmingham, and I'm a Birmingham girl as well. And we didn't know he was going to do that. So it was really well timed that one MARK: You mentioned at the start about your latest single “Slave To The Rhythm”. It’s an amazing version and I’m really pleased you’re releasing it but I did some research for this and you sang on the original demo. Is that right? TOYAH: Yeah. The original was written by Simon Darlow, my long term writing partner and he asked me to sing on it and then the demo went out I believe to Frankie Goes To Hollywood. And they didn't want to do it. They wanted to rewrite the lyric. And then Simon met up with Trevor Horn and another writer and producer and it became the “Slave To The Rhythm” that Grace Jones has made. This is the iconic version that Grace Jones did. So it's had quite a journey through a few writers, but it began with Simon Darlow

And Simon said to me that he really felt that as I was involved at the very beginning purely as the session singer, should we give it a go? And I was a bit worried about it. Firstly, Grace Jones owns it. It's very much her brilliant iconic performance, but also as someone who allies towards everyone that's been exploited and abused through history ... Grace Jones has a right to that song I was really worried about doing it. And Simon said, well, actually, his reference is that we're all slaves to time. That none of us can escape time. So that's the way we've approached it. So within the video we have the theme of time just ticking away with the fingers. So that's how Simon said we should address it MARK: I look forward to hearing it. I love the version on your Sunday Lunch. I'd love to hear the actual proper studio recorded version TOYAH: It’s a beautiful version. It's very, very brilliant and respectful. And we've not trodden on Grace Jones' toes at all. I deliver it in a very gentle way. So it's lovely

MARK: You also mentioned Trevor Horn, and Frankie Goes To Hollywood and I hear you've recorded a version of “Relax” with Trevor Horn. So how did that come about and when can we hear that?

TOYAH: Well, I can't tell you too much about it other than we're working with Trevor this week. We've got a live show with him this week as well. Trevor heard our version of “Slave To The Rhythm” via one of the writers seeing me perform it live for the first time that G Live in Guilford. And that was Bruce Wolley, who is one of the new co-writers on the song. He’s in the history of that song

He came to the show and he heard me perform it live. And he got in touch with Trevor and he said "you've got to hear this. It's really good". And Trevor phoned me and said would I come into the studio and record “Relax”. It's a very, very different version. His original idea was for the voice to be artificial intelligence. But the label turned that down and he wanted me to sing it in my deepest register. It absolutely gorgeous. It's so beautiful. It is actually romantic

MARK: Great. Can't wait to hear that and Trevor Horn, what an amazing producer

TOYAH: He’s breathtaking to work with. As soon as I put the headphones on to do the harmonies in the studio I thought my God this is best sound I've ever had in the studio! It was fabulous

MARK: Trevor Horn, his records just sound amazing. Recently, the BBC showed your first ever professional screen role as “Sue” and the play “Glitter” (above) with Phil Daniels and Noel Edmunds. In the show Sue says “I want to be so famous that I'm a household name all over the world”. Sue’s dream was to be on Top Of The Pops. That it was shown in 1976 so it's amazing to think that the real Toyah Willcox achieved this soon. There was definitely some sort of weird synchronicity going on there TOYAH: I know, it's absolutely fabulous. I had to audition for that role. I was spotted by the Bicat brothers and they called me down to London and I did the audition with Phil Daniels. With no knowledge at all that we both end up in “Quadrophenia” together a few years later. I've never been on camera. I've never sung into a microphone. I only had this idealistic dream of becoming a singer. I had opera lessons at school, I sang at school but that was opera, that was not rock music

And I remember making “Glitter” so clearly because I was just living the dream. But I had no technical experience. I had no experience of projecting my voice or placing words. I was completely raw and I think that shows in “Glitter”. But somehow the National Theatre watched it being broadcast at the end of ‘76 and they cast me in “Tales From The Vienna Woods” and by that Christmas I was living in London, about to open on the Olivier stage at the National Theatre I leapfrogged about 15 years of experience. And the National was great to me. They gave me speech therapy, they gave me movement lessons. They really tried to kind of hone my talent. But “Giltter” was the turning point in my life for everything. It was the biggest piece of luck I have ever had in my life MARK: Yeah it’s good actually, watched it this morning. Really enjoyed it TOYAH: What did you think of it? MARK: Yeah, I really liked it. Noel Edmunds was good TOYAH: Would you say I was good?

MARK: Yeah, absolutely. And Phil Daniels TOYAH: Phil’s always good. He's been in front of the camera all his life MARK: For your first ever professional performance it was great TOYAH: You’re very kind MARK: I really, really enjoyed it. And again, Phil as you said, starred as “Jimmy Cooper” alongside yourself as “Monkey” (below) in the classic movie “Quadrophenia”. Can we talk about this because it's one of my favourite films. It's such a classic movie with an amazing cast. Did you think how special it was when you were making it?

TOYAH: It's a very good question because there is no way that cast would not let it be special. Up until that point, I had always kind of worked in an isolation of being the youngest in the company. So I'd made “Jubilee”, which I loved every minute of. I was working with the glitterati of London punk. People with way more life experience than me and they kind of protected me

And then I made the “The Corn Is Green” with Katharine Hepburn and George Cukor and again, I was cosseted. I was the youngest. And when I stepped onto the set of “Quadrophenia”, or even for the rehearsals, because we did a lot of prep rehearsals for that film - suddenly I was no longer the youngest and I was in a group of about 50 people who were all determined to be superstars. And you just had to step up to the mark It was an incredible experience. And were all great friends. We all really really loved each other. But boy, we were fighting for the limelight. And we knew it was going to be special. How could a film where the music was written by Pete Townsend and The Who had performed that music for years and years and years ... How could this film not be a success?

But ironically, when it first screened, it was critically panned. But audiences loved it. I think it was 1979 we shot it, 1980 it was released. Generation after generation around the world has discovered this film and loved it and it even still has conventions in Los Angeles

MARK: It's a great film. Absolutely classic. Is it true that John Lydon tried out as “Jimmy” and you read with him for the part? TOYAH: I got John through the screen test at Shepperton Studios. So Franc Roddam - I haven't even been cast in the film at this point, because I was working at the Royal Court Theatre, and had amazing reviews for my stage acting - Franc Roddam got me to do two scenes with John Lydon at Shepperton on camera, on a huge 36 mil camera. So I used to meet up with John Lydon in his apartment off the Kings Road and we'd run the scenes. He was perfect. He was word perfect. He was fabulous And when we got to Shepperton we just did the scenes. I played Leslie Ash’s role and John was doing Phil Daniel's role, and he was really, really special. And he behaved, he was a gentleman, he was great to be with, but no one would insure the film if he was in it. Now I have to stick up for both John Lydon and Phil Daniels here. Because if the issue was different, I think John Lydon would have gone on to be a great Hollywood actor

Phil Daniels was the only person who could really play “Jimmy,” because of Phil’s life experience. He was right for “Jimmy.” Phil Daniels gave an Oscar winning performance in that film, but obviously he didn't get any nominations because it just didn't happen. But Phil Daniels is the reason that film is so successful

MARK: You couldn't imagine the film without him at all or without the rest of the cast because everybody went on to make something of themselves. What draws you to a movie, what do you look for in a part? TOYAH: The one main factor is can I do it? Because sometimes I'm offered unrealistic things. I'm physically very small. And I now warn people I say "look, it's very kind of you to offer me this but if you're going to cast me next to people who are 6’2”, the director and the camera team are going to have real problems getting us in two shots." Two shots is where you've got two characters in one shot. So I now look for the fact can I portray that character with my physicality? And is it a character that I can really use my intelligence on?

If it's just a character where they need Toyah Willcox in the film so my name is on the poster ... I don't do those. I really don't do those. I'm an incredibly intelligent actress. My dyslexia just really informs me about people. And I really want characters that I can reveal to an audience. So that may sound complex, but there is so much you can do without saying words, and I look for that in the storyline MARK: Some people forget you were an actress first before you were a pop star. Do you have any film projects coming up? TOYAH: Well, lockdown has not helped the industry that much. So I had a film show at Leicester Square last week called “Give Them Wings”, which I won the critics Best Actress Award at the Richard Harris Film Festival. I'm playing the mother of the lead in that and I've had phenomenal reviews for that film, but that was shot just before lockdown started. During lockdown I managed to make “The Ghosts Of Borley Rectory”

Again, I've had Best Actress nominations for that. So the film industry is now getting back on its feet with a backlog of movies waiting to find a cinema and a distribution deal. And I think it's going to take a long time for cinema to find its feet again. Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney - they've all gone straight to streaming and at the moment that is where the industry is at MARK: In a career spanning more than 40 years you've had loads of Top 40 singles, released over 20 albums, written two books, appeared in over 40 stage plays and voiced and presented numerous television shows. So with all that in mind … what are you most proud of? What’s been your highlights? Can you pick anything out? TOYAH: Highlight ... probably doing Old Grey Whistle Test at Drury Lane on Christmas Eve 1981 (below) That had 12 million viewers but it was such an honour to be invited to do that. Other highlights “Posh Pop” going to number one in 36 charts. Getting a call from Trevor Horn after 45 years in the business was pretty flattering. I get up to a great job. For 45 years I've woken up to a great job. So I'm very grateful for everything I do

MARK: Yeah, I’m sure. Just a few more questions, Toyah. You’ve so much energy. What keeps you going after all these years?

TOYAH: It’s probably because I never had children. I've got a lot of energy and a lot of money (they both laugh) I don't want to be flippant about it. But everyone I know with children I think how the hell do you do that?!

MARK: I like to ask the guests the following questions, Toyah. Out of all the music in your collection which artists or bands do you have the most albums by?

TOYAH: David Bowie

MARK: And what is your favourite?

TOYAH: My favourite David Bowie album - I've actually got three – “Man Who Sold The World”, “Hunky Dory” and “Ziggy Stardust”. I just love the path he took. It's a very, very tangible path where you could see him just changing through desperation because “Hunky Dory” was a really hard time for him as an artist. He had shotguns held to his head in Texas. Andy Warhol was really nasty to him. And you just saw this ascending trajectory into “Ziggy Stardust” through these albums. And even on “Man Who Sold The World” you could hear my husband's King Crimson influence. So I just love those three albums MARK: Absolute genius. We miss him TOYAH: Yeah MARK: Which song or album is your guilty pleasure? TOYAH: “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” That album is just one of the most beautifully written and performed albums in the whole history of modern music MARK: Would you say it's a guilty pleasure? I love it TOYAH: Well, l I love it but you've got to remember people go “you’re a punk rocker!”

MARK: Yeah, that's right (laughs) You're not supposed to like stuff like that. But nowadays everybody can like anything and it doesn't matter TOYAH: Then there's no such thing as a guilty pleasure, is there? MARK: (laughs) You got me there. Such an amazing career. We could talk for a long time. I had to just pick certain things, there's lots more things we could have talked about, but it's an absolute honour and pleasure to be speaking to you TOYAH: Thank you very much. You obviously know a lot about me, and I'm very grateful. Thank you MARK: There's lots more and we have a short period of time, we could spend hours (Toyah laughs) Good luck with the new single and I can't wait to hear “Relax” TOYAH: All right. Thank you very much. Good to meet you MARK: To meet you too. Bye

TOYAH: Bye bye

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