#yes Arya loves her sister but that doesn't mean all of their issues are going to magically disappear when they reunite and this is somethin | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

janiedean · 3 years

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not to be that person but idk why everyone keeps behaving like sansa surviving KL and LF means she's smarter than every other stark like only court intrigues and politics require you to be smart?? and surviving amongst the smallfolk and assassins and night's watch and beyond the wall is all about brawn and physical strength??? that's so... classist lmfao, like surviving without revealing you're a highborn in a warzone, not starving to death, not being killed by soldiers/assassins/whatnot requires as much brains as surviving court politics. jon had to deal with politics at the NW and with Stannis. admittedly bran's story was doesn't at all in the show but he's about the only one who manages to explore his warging abilities fully it's not a piece of cake?? and arya had to escape KL, survive flea bottom, then harrenhal (under ROOSE BOLTON FFS) and the bwb and the red wedding AND get to braavos and survive the faceless men whoch is supposedly the leading assassin organization in asoiaf.

i'm not even getting into everything dany's done and survived lol. but okay samsa is the only genius in westeros, we know she is because tyrion says so i guess? not to mention show sansa's political "mentors" are possible the WORST examples of rulers we have - cersei and littlefinger. they didn't give 2 shits about ruling or the smallfolk or leadership, just about their own power. and i'd say that's important given how much time grrm spends showing us how the smallfolk suffer because of the games played by kings and queens.

this... actually requires a bit of going into it but like not counting that show sansa was a travesty and I'm choosing to not acknowledge it, and show lf was... I mean I'm not even going into how much it was a disservice to the og char whom I detest but honestly book!lf wouldn't marry sansa to anyone he didn't do research about lmfao but like not going into... those... plot holes.....

the entire point is that in the book sansa ends up under those two's tutelage anyway and... she's posed to do the contrary? what does she think looking at c.? that when she's queen she wants to be loved not feared, and like... being with lf is testing her morals but it's obvious that since she survived staying kind until now (I mean... again it's her leitmotiv she helped lancel & about everyone she could who was a jerk to her to the point it sent at least lancel into a faith crisis, she felt bad for joffrey like FOR FUCKING JOFFREY COME ON that's her selling point HER FUCKING SELLING POINT) then she'll just... gain enough political knowledge to outsmart people when she wants to but she won't use it to be a jerk she'll use it.. to.. help her family... when they're reunited which is p obvious to me but nvm

the thing is that people have decided to attach it to the underdog female character goes up the power ladder trope which.... like that's not it

also there's the part where like people are so caught up in the whole WHO HAS IT WORSE BETWEEN SANSA AND ARYA WHO IS THE BEST feud that... they don't notice that they have specular ways of dealing with trauma like arya is dealing with having to lose her identity/risking not knowing who she is anymore and she has to deal with increasing violence/ptsd-related trauma bc she's throw in the middle of everything bad she could end up in like she was almost in the red wedding I was 90% sure she also died until I saw she had a chapter after, while sansa has managed to dodge courtly poisons by being herself and by not letting it change who she is which tyrion noticed which everyone noticed which is why guess what tyrion is willing to stand up to his father and tell him no when it comes to actually having sex with her when he couldn't for the marriage and she's the only person that managed to get past sandor's trauma issues enough that he tried to actually help her for what he could, like... arya has de-personalization to overcome, sansa is holding to her guns by staying herself and she has to learn what good she can from lf before ditching him and keeping on staying herself like it's fucking specular it's not supposed to be a game of who has it worse

(wish ppl would get it also with jaime and tyrion and their coping with trauma but nvm)

the fact that ppl downplay that jon isn't politically an idiot at all irks me forever but like... bruh the dude handled being lord commander, an entire siege when he was like seventeen and was hobbling around on crutches, managed to infiltrate the wildlings without anyone finding out (and it traumatized the shit out of him but nvm) and if only he was good at PR he wouldn't have gotten juliuscaesared, like... okay X°DDD

I mean... yes it's classist but that's a dead horse to beat, if people actually took that angle into account they wouldn't write off brienne or davos chapters as BORING if only bc they're the only ones where you see how not-nobles are doing as in badly X°D

anyway like all stark kids have enough smarts to survive their storylines and robb had to be taken out with a betrayal so he wasn't being that stupid either differently from what my villain origin story thinks but again as someone said once if you hate a stark kid to prop up your fave your fave most likely would hate you so that's my stance X°D

but like... the point is that sansa was shown to gaf about others/the smallfolk/people lower than her in the food chain which dnd/half of this fandom didn't get which is why she'll be an excellent regent for bran and I'm dying on that hill but again this entire thing where you have to pit your fave against everyone else to show how much more badass/smarter they are is imvho a useless exercise because then I'll cut the gordian knot and say that if gilly managed to survive at least seventeen years with her father in that context knowing that her mother was also her sister and that she'd get the same treatment and if she had male children they'd get put out in the open and killed and then was forced to swap her own baby for another without knowing if that baby was going to die or not and she still had it in herself to not turn into a complete asshole she wins for toughest survivor in westeros at least out of the girls unless we want jeynep to give her a run for her money because like... going from lf to ramsay and not as a protegé and considering she was afraid ramsay was going to sic dogs on her when they saved her I think we can maybe ger some perspective here X°DDDD

(I'm not even going into the guys because honestly there's an amount of trauma that's not quantifiable in there X°DD)

like...... again everyone has it bad in these books and propping up your fave making the others look bad makes no sense bc if you love your fave then you have reasons to and you don't need to compare them to others to make them look as good as you think they are and that's my hill to die on X°D

#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #janie rants #anonymous #ask post #anti show sansa #trauma cw #incest cw #abuse cw #rape cw #anti-cersei lannister #anti cersei lannister

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trinuviel · 5 years

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I really liked your addition to the meta about Sansa's relationship with Ned. You write in the last paragraph that Sansa is very different from her siblings and doesn't really interact with any of them which i found really interesting since Arya (and sometimes Jon) is always thought of as the 'outsiders' at Winterfell. Do you think it's maybe more fair to say that Sansa was the outsider in the family in a way despite her adhering to and being praised for her proper, ladylike behaviour?

You pose an interesting question that is also hard to answer because there is hardly any canon material about how Sansa interacted with all her siblings at Winterfell. Of all the Starklings, only Jon is really a bit of an “outcast” because he’s a bastard and that has a very real effect on his place in the family and how he’s treated. Arya may feel like an outcast because she doesn’t conform to gender expectations but she only appears to have a contentious relationship with Sansa - and that has to do with their differences and Arya’s low self-esteem. And when you add Ned’s obvious favouritism of Arya over Sansa, which Sansa noticed and resented, then you get a volatile brew.

She does have a fond memory of a snow ball fight with Arya but not much else though we do know that both Arya and Bran thought her romanticism stupid. A lot of fans seem to think that Robb and Sansa had a special relationship but there’s actually NO textual evidence for this whatsoever! Her relationship with Arya was contentious for several reasons I think - they are very different people with different interests and we do get a few hints that Sansa would have liked that her sister also had an interest in the things that Sansa likes. Another reason that their relationship is conflict-ridden even at WF (though it gets so much worse after the Trident) is partly due to Arya’s low self-esteem because she’s not good at the stuff Sansa is good at and in this respect we mustn’t overlook the part that Septa Mordane played in this. That woman is the root of Arya’s self-esteem issues. I do recall something about Sansa being closer to Bran but it’s been a while since I’ve read her chapters. We don’t know much about her relationship with Jon but most assume that it is distant because she calls him half-brother. I do think that there’s some truth in this but it is also notable that he has fond memories of her - and it is just adorable that she at some point instructed him in how to talk to girls.

We hardly get any examples to examine the sibling dynamic of the Starklings as a whole. However, there is one example that may be somewhat illuminating:

Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now.

…

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too. (AGoT, Arya IV)

Both Bran and Sansa are pretty scared - Sansa so much that she runs away. But while Arya gets mad, she only gets mad on behalf of Bran - and neither Robb nor Jon, who oare the oldest, bother to run after Sansa to reassure her. The result of the prank is a lot of laughter in the end - and here Sansa is excluded from the sibling camaraderie because none of them bothered with her. It is rather sad when looked at from Sansa’s POV. It is only one incident and thus we should be careful to generalize but it could indicate that Sansa was indeed isolated from her siblings.

I do think that there are several factors in play that results in Sansa being somewhat isolated within her own family when it comes to her siblings. I’ve written about this in the first essay in my Winterfell’s Daughter series so I’ll just quote myself:

Sansa is very much a child that conforms to the expections that accrues to her gender and her social status. She is a conformist and obedient child and yet she is also a bit of an “outsider” within her own family. This “outsider” status is visually articulated from the very beginning of the story. When we first meet the Starks, Ned, Catelyn and all they boys are outside in the castle courtyard. On the other hand, the audience meet Sansa and Arya in an indoor space, engaged in the art of embroidering, which is coded as exclusively feminine. However, Arya quickly leaves the confines of the sewing circle and runs outside to engage in archery with her brothers. Sansa’s difference from her family is further emphasized when the Starks line up to meet the King. All of the Starks are clad in fur-decorated cloaks. However, unlike the cloaks of her parents and her siblings, Sansa’s cloak is of of a light blue colour that matches her dress. Visually, she sticks out like a sore thumb.

From the very start, Sansa is singled out as different from the rest of the Stark through purely visual means. It isn’t something that the show (or even the books) delves very deep into but part of Sansa’s isolation within her own family is tied to her gender. Like all other highborn children, boys and girls are educated differently in the Stark family. The distinction between inside and outside spaces encapsulates the gender divide in the very first episode.

The lives of highborn girls are proscribed by a number of restrictive social conventions – almost all highborn women in Westeros are forced to engage in compulsory femininity. This is not a problem for Sansa since her interests and talents conform to the social restrictions placed upon her gender. Arya, on the other hand, doesn’t conform. She rebels and engages in activities normally reserved for boys. In that sense, Arya shares something with her brothers that Sansa doesn’t. In fact, Sansa’s feminine world is very much cut off from the sphere her brothers inhabit. Thus, Sansa conforming to gender norms also marks her as a bit of an outsider in a family of four boys and one tomboy. Therefore, it shouldn’t be that surprising that Sansa is eager to leave Winterfell – even if it is her safe and loving home. She desperately wants to find a place where she “fits” in a way she doesn’t “fit” in at Winterfell.

This analysis is show based but I think it holds true for the books as well. Both interests and gender norms played a part in separating Sansa from her siblings - gender dictated differences in education, most notably when it comes to weapon’s training for the boys and sewing and music for the girls. Interests also matter - and it is noteworthy that there’s very much an inside/outside divide between Sansa and her siblings when it comes to their interests. Sansa likes doing embroidery, reading, singing and playing an instrument and writing poetry. All indoor activities whereas the rest of her siblings favour outdoor activities.

So yes, in this sense, Sansa is a bit of an outsider in her own family - she is really the “odd one out” since none of her siblings really share her interests - and both Arya and Bran find the things she likes stupid. Because Arya and the boys prefer outdoor activities, they share something that Sansa is excluded from. It really isn’t very surprising that Sansa so eager to leave Winterfell and find a place where felt that she would “fit in” at the beginning of the story.

Thanks for the ask and sorry about the late reply.

#sansa stark

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madaboutasoiaf · 6 years

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I was wondering if you could help me understand a line in a Catelyn’s chapter that I have never been able to understand-“I had enough love for any woman.” I’ve never interpreted that as Catelyn being happy with Ned, but as her making the best out of a bad situation-a defense mechanism. It doesn't seem like a passionate description of their marriage, but then I can't reconcile that meaning with her last thoughts of being reunited with Ned. I don't get it. Thoughts?

Hi there!

I’ve seen some discussion about this line and I respectfully disagree with the interpretation that it suggests Catelyn was just making the best of a bad situation. Taking that line on it’s own ignores the context.

Edmure is glum about his prospective bride, imagining her to be unattractive.

“With so many different mothers, a few of the maids are bound to turn up comely,” said Ser Marq Piper, “but why should the old wretch give you a pretty one?”“No reason at all,” said Edmure in a glum tone.

Catelyn takes issue with this, reminding Edmure that appearance is not everything.

It was more than Catelyn could stand. “Cersei Lannister is comely,” she said sharply. “You’d be wiser to pray that Roslin is strong and healthy, with a good head and a loyal heart.”

This exchange reminds her of when she met her own husband-to be.

She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion.

Her marriage with Ned started out as dutiful. Ned wasn’t good looking like Brandon, there was no instant spark of attraction. Then she goes on to say it all changed as they got to know one another, because even though Ned wasn’t handsome, he had other, more important qualities-in particular, a good heart.

And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned’s solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.

The point of it was that Edmure might find love with Roslin, with time, just as Catelyn did with Ned. “I had love enough for any woman” means “I could not have had more love”, not that she was trying to make the best out of her duty. She discovered that Ned had a “good sweet heart.” It’s entirely consistent with the other quotes we have from Catelyn about Ned.

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god…

She could see the grief on his face, but even then he thought first of her. “Your sister,” he said. “And Jon’s boy. What word of them?”

“Go to her,” Ned urged. “Take the children. Fill her halls with noise and shouts and laughter. That boy of hers needs other children about him, and Lysa should not be alone in her grief.”

“Robert is coming here?” When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.Catelyn wished she could share his joy. But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs.

Their marriage was one of love and respect.

“Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.”His words were like an icy draft through her heart. “No,” she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?“Yes,” Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. “You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.”

Ned trusts Catelyn to govern the North in his absence. That’s no small thing. There’s also passion between them in AGOT.

Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache.

…when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber.

They enjoy one another. Ned goes to Catelyn’s bed, she teases him because the room is too hot for him, and his answer is to open the windows.

After Ned dies, there’s a number of quotes where Catelyn thinks of her love for him

It was a stirring sight, yet it did not lift her heart. She wondered if indeed her heart would ever lift again. Oh, Ned…

I have lost my Ned, the rock my life was built on, I could not bear to lose the girls as well…

Catelyn had not eaten today. Perhaps that had been unwise. She told herself that there had been no time, but the truth was that food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. When they took his head off, they killed me too.

Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children.

Catelyn loved Ned very much. There wasn’t instant passion with them, but it was there on the page in AGOT, and Catelyn and Ned longed to be together again throughout that book. I’m not saying their marriage was perfect, it obviously wasn’t, but the strain in their marriage does not negate the love they have for one another. It’s especially clear at the end, before Catelyn dies, as you say.

They could do as they wished with her; imprison her, rape her, kill her, it made no matter. She had lived too long, and Ned was waiting.

Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb… Robb… please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting... The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved.

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair.

#catelyn stark #ned stark #ned x cat #my meta #I probably went a bit overboard with the quotes #but I had Thoughts #Anonymous

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sydney-stylites-blog · 7 years

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Of betrayals and backstabbings | The Dragonpit edition

Yeah the title really doesn't make a lot of sense, but I liked how it sounded 🤷🏻 I kind of wanted to explore the whole Jon betraying Dany thing again, and why the Dragonpit scene conclusively ended any doubts I might have had regarding that.

I've been staunchly against the concept of Jon betraying Dany and I've addressed it multiple times already. Betraying Dany doesn't fit in Jon's character sketch. There a million already existing problems which everyone has to deal with, and Jon playing Dany is not one of them. Of course, then we have the classic case of Ygritte brought up. If Jon could betray her for the Night's Watch, why can't he betray Dany for his family? What antis conveniently forget every time they bring this up is that Ygritte (and the wildlings) were coming to destroy the Night's Watch (and a ton of innocent people while at it). So Jon betrayed her because he had no other option. Dany is coming with her armies and dragons to save Jon's home, save the North...so why, why would Jon betray her? What would he have to gain by this?

Consider this. When Sansa and Arya played Littlefinger, that was awesome! We not only supported it, but we were thrilled af when it happened! But what about when Littlefinger had betrayed Ned Stark, and that was after telling him he shouldn't have trusted him? I mean, he had warned him earlier hadn't he? So the betrayal wasn't out of the blue, right? It was something we should have been expecting, wasn't it? But did we support that? Did we agree with or sympathise with Littlefinger?

And okay, when Jon betrayed Ygritte, who did you agree with more? Did you feel bad for Ygritte but also felt that Jon had done the right thing? Could you see Jon's struggle between love and duty and acknowledge that the right choice wasn't as easy to make?

Why were our reactions different to all those situations? Short answer - motive. Our reaction to betrayals are based on the motive, and how well it is portrayed in the narrative. 'A woman murdered a man' evokes a different reaction than 'a woman executed a man who had led to the death of her own father'. Throw in the fact that he was still trying to get her to kill her sister, and we not only agree with the woman in question here, we are positively cheering her on! Because that's the difference motive makes - it justifies actions otherwise considered wrong, and we have numerous examples of it in Game of Thrones. My personal favorite, of course, is Jaime and the Kingslayer story because it perfectly highlights the difference between us knowing the reason, or judging the action as it stands.

So what could be Jon's motives for playing Dany?

We have the obvious, to protect his family and Winterfell from the unstable witch (that is supposedly Dany on tumblr).

But that's the thing again antis. Dany has never once, not once threatened or even implied in extremely vague terms anything that could be constituted to be a threat to Winterfell or the Starks. In all their interactions, whenever she wanted Jon to bend the knee, she never even went in the general area of threatening his family if he refused to. The issue of family wasn't brought up at all in that sense, so the idea that she would harm his family now, after having clearly developed feelings for him, has only sprung from the minds of the Jonsa Fandom who very much want it to be true because it justifies their POV and their ship. Because the assumption that Dany would want to destroy Winterfell, destroy the Starks and Jon realized this and is appeasing her by catering to her romantic feelings would work extremely well if, if it had been implied anywhere at least once, even if vaguely. But it hasn't been portrayed, and by itself fails to suffice as the motive setting up Jon conning Dany.

Jon will never betray Northern independence for love, and is only faking it to protect the North from Dany's ire.

Considering that the North was already protected from Dany's ire before Jon pledged himself to her, I don't even know where this comes from. Dany promised to fight the White Walkers without asking anything in return (an action which squarely put her in the 'good guy' category), Jon playing her to accomplish something which had already been accomplished is not only senseless, paranoic and unnecessary, but it also would then put him firmly in the douchebag category. Dany let him keep the North, only for him to offer it to her twice, and then ultimately turn right around and say lol, kidding?? Really Jonsa peeps? That makes sense to any of you? Why is it so hard to accept that Jon judged her worthy of his allegiance? But of course, that wouldn't work for the antis and this mess is far more appealing.

About the Northern independence though, I've already mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. The whole 'King in the North' concept arose because the Starks would not accept the Lannisters as their king, not after what they had done. Supporting the Baratheons would have been treasonous and dishonourable, and would have embroiled them in a civil war they had no interest in being part of. The main reason however, was that the Northern Lords had grown disillusioned with the Southern kings who did not care about the Northern issues at all and only paid attention to the North when it was in their own interests. Now, with Daenerys pledging herself to defeat the White Walkers, the entire dynamic of the game had changed, the Southern ruler in point, was not a Lannister or a Baratheons, but a Targaryen, who was coming to save the North instead of abandoning them to their plight and, contrary to popular belief, could in fact be trusted. The North Remembers, and it is this that Jon hopes the North will remember once the Walkers have been defeated, that Daenerys is not her father. So, in short, Jon is not playing Dany for Northern independence because it's frankly ridiculous and the alternative (he feels she's a worthy ruler) makes much more sense in this case.

Jon is playing Dany for Sansa's sake, either because he took her advice about not making mistakes seriously or he's deeply in love with her.

This is a very shipper reason, as canonically there has been no love shown from either of them, but I would have still accepted this reason if they hadn't already made it crystal clear that Jon and Sansa don't agree politically. They both have different views regarding politics, and while Jon does ask her for her opinions, he does what he believes he should do anyway. Also, while Sansa has a more grounded worldview which takes into account people's feelings and motivations - rewarding those true to you for their loyalty (Karstarks and Umbers), taking Cersei more seriously, not abandoning the North and literally everything else, Jon's are more idealistic and based on his strong moral code of 'honor' - not taking the castles away from the Karstarks and Umbers, choosing to believe in Tyrion, putting his own life on the line to save his people (by going to Dragonstone). Jon has been consistently portrayed, all throughout this season, as valuing honor above everything - a very strong Ned Stark trait tbh - and not taking Sansa's advice as seriously as he should (which is what she notices as well, and it upsets her). So with this set-up, believing that he is actually playing Dany because of what Sansa has told him is, quite frankly, a stretch, because there is no narrative indication which would make us believe that. This would also explain Sansa's reaction to learning he had bent the knee, she's resigned to it because she knows that though Jon loves and respects her, he still does what he thinks is the right thing to do. Also, Sansa doesn't berate him for doing what he did in the way she would have had she believed he had been repeating Ned's and Robb's mistakes - - > she doesn't believe he's making those mistakes ie bending the knee to Dany is not disastrous (as the antis would have you believe). Sansa is upset because Jon clearly didn't consider asking Sansa's opinion about a very important political decision, and she's upset because she knows that the Northern Lords will not accept this easily, but she doesn't react as if it's the worst thing in the world ever, nor does she act thoughtful, which would have indicated that all is not as it seems. In short, Sansa's reaction is very much expected under the circumstances, which are that Jon doesn't take her as seriously as he should. And given this, it seems unlikely to imagine that he's in cahoots with Sansa and they're taking down the Dragon Queen together (together! 😂)

Every reason for Jon playing Dany would have worked if the narrative had given some sort of suggestion about a possible motive, some indication of Jon treating Sansa's advice seriously, or made Jon give up the North before she pledged to fight the Walkers. And the nail in the coffin for the 'undercover lover' theory was the Dragonpit scene. Nothing would have cast stronger doubts on whether Jon truly loves Dany or not, than him accepting the truce. Despite it being the smart political move, it would have also raised a tiny red flag regarding Jon's true intentions, in my mind at least. Jon basically had nothing to lose by accepting the truce, nothing except for his honor. And that made him refuse! It wasn't just him making a public proclamation that he loves Dany (although it sorta was 😂), it was him being faced with a choice to sacrifice his honor, his word, to get what he wanted, it was him being asked to choose whether he truly was his father's son, it was him being expected by the one who knew the truth to do the dishonourable thing for the greater good. He could have lied and supported Dany later, he could simply have walked away from the battles to come because they didn't directly concern him and his people and let Dany fend for herself. But would it have been the honorable thing to do? Smarter, yes. Wiser, yes. More beneficial to his own people, yes. But honorable? After taking Dany's help to defeat the White Walkers, which let's be honest, are a far greater threat to the North than anywhere else, after taking her armies and dragons to save his home and then turning his back on her when Cersei came at her with fresh forces would have been as far from honor as possible. If Jon has indeed been playing Dany all along, then he should have accepted Cersei's offer - which would not only have placated the Northern Lords later, but would also have served as a potential hint of him playing Dany. But in keeping with the characteristic theme of this season, Jon chooses honor over the alternative more politically savvy choice. He upset everybody, even Dany, with this choice when he could have gone with the easier one, which would have ensured everyone - those at the Dragonpit as well as the Northern lords - would have been happy with the outcome. Everyone would have gotten what they wanted, and the subsequent - if any - reveal of Jon having played Dany all along would have made much more sense to the audience.

But Jon did not make the easy choice. The deliberate inclusion of this scene was only to portray that even when the choice is tough, Jon would choose honor. This is his character, his identity. Also, the callbacks to Ned Stark, aside from foreshadowing that when the time comes to choose, Jon would most likely choose his Stark heritage, remind us that Ned Stark valued honor above all, and the only times he sacrificed it was over love - love for his sister and love for his daughters, which caused him to abandon his honor for their survival. So for Ned Stark's son to betray a woman who trusts, loves, respects and admires him, a woman who's had the same struggles in life as he himself has, a woman who is willing to set aside her own personal goals to help him destroy the threat to his home, for him to betray a woman who has already given him everything he wanted, is actually a betrayal of Ned Stark's legacy and everything he stood for. By going so far as to blatantly lie in Ned Stark's name, Jon would have, in one stroke, destroyed everything that Ned Stark inculcated and symbolised, given what we already know about him having no motive at all for the undercover lover angle. So the callback to Ned was very necessary in highlighting that Jon is truly Ned's son, and throwing away his honor without an ironclad reason is not his character. It's simply not.

Also, this scene was very important because it very starkly set up the contrast between Jon (and even Dany) and Cersei. Remember how all of us were totally skeptical about believing Cersei at all in the first place? Even after the convincing reason of her wanting to protect her to-be-born child, it still was hard to believe that she would actually help them. And why was that?

'When enough people make false promises words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies.'

As the audience, we now know not to trust Cersei. Even when she's being completely sincere, it's hard to trust her because her words have long since stopped meaning anything to us, she's not someone who's promises we'll ever trust, because as Jon said, they are only better and more elaborate lies. And lies won't help us in this fight. So Jon not lying is very important to show us this difference, of how we basically trust Jon's promises and how cautious we are when it comes to Cersei. And as if that's not enough, Cersei's scene with Jaime lays it all completely out, when Jaime is do adamant about sticking to his promise and is struggling to understand how Cersei could have lied to them.

Cersei: I'll say whatever I need to say to ensure the survival of our house

To Cersei, the priority is only her house, her family, to the point that she can't even acknowledge the enormity of the Northern threat. She's focused on ensuring her family's survival, everyone else be damned. And that is categorically shown as an evil thing. Saying whatever is needed to be said, making false promises, basically everything that the Jonsa fans expect from Jon is clearly and emphatically shown to be evil, to be wrong. The whole purpose of the Dragonpit scene is to bring out this contrast between Jon and Cersei - Cersei doesn't care about futile things such as honor and promises when the question is about her own family's survival, Jon however not only cares about the realm, as a whole, but he also highly values honor and takes his promises seriously. We even have Jaime Lannister (my cute nugget 💖) walk away from Cersei, whom he loves above and beyond all, because of his honor. If, after all this, Jon is shown to not have any honor at all, then...

#jonerys #jon snow #game of thrones #undercover lover #doctor who gif #because i'm an idiot

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bitchfromtheseventhhell · 7 years

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I know Arya fans have issue with it but it doesn't seem so outlandish to think Grrm will have Arya die but live on in Nymeria. She has a very strong connection to her direwolf and her dreams of running with her pack seem to be when she's most free.

The issue for me is not that it seems outlandish (because I agree–I definitely can imagine a character in Martin’s world that would die and live on in a bonded animal. He did that to Varamyr Sixskins, I could imagine him having done it for Robb if Grey Wind had lived, etc.)–it’s that I look at other major elements that he’s working with in Arya’s narrative and think that it ultimately would do the opposite of what you say.

Yes, Arya has a remarkably powerful connection to Nymeria. She thinks of her as being one of the few living creatures who loves her unconditionally. Nymeria protects her without Arya being aware of it, and Arya is able to warg into her skin from thousands of miles away. Theirs is absolutely a strong connection, and I also wholeheartedly agree that at this point, her wolf dreams are where she feels the most “herself” and is running free. But I think that’s not the entire point of those wolf dreams.

Arya has been confronting since book one, both on a metaphorical and literal level. You have it in book 1, where Septa Mordane is working very hard to train Arya to be a proper lady, at the expense of feeling comfortable in her own skin; this is compounded by her sister and Jeyne Poole who bully her and call her ugly and horrible and all other sorts of things in an effort to cow her into being more ladylike as well; it’s also compounded by her parents because even if they love her, they also are definitely trying to have her shape up and be a proper lady too. She has to pretend to be everyone except Arya Stark for the sake of her own safety in the next book, and then she ends up at the House of Black and White which is literally trying to remove her face and have her become “no one,” and the whole point of this is that ultimately she will say “no, I’m Arya.” (Her wolf dreams are building towards that, as is the fact that she kept Needle.) And, when she ultimately makes her way back to Winterfell–where she’s been aiming for since the first book–she’s going to find one of the people who spent her childhood mocking her and making her feel worthless being forced to pretend to be her in order to survive, and so the question of what it means to be “Arya” might literally mean life or death for someone who spent Arya’s youth mocking just that.

Is Nymeria crucial to that? I absolutely think so. Nymeria, like Needle, is a major touchstone at the heart of Arya’s identity, keeping her grounded internally when her identity is being buffeted this way and that depending on where she is and who she is around.

Arya dying and ending up in Nymeria is not a triumph of her identity–it’s a tragedy by simple virtue of this:

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.” (ADWD, Prologue)

Arya dying and living on in Nymeria isn’t Arya dying and living on in Nymeria. It’s Arya dying, and fading slowly until she is Nymeria, and while Nymeria is vital to Arya’s identity, she is not the only part of Arya’s identity–no more than Arya is hers. Far from being an affirmation of Arya’s identity, an anchor-point that helped her navigate her way through every piece of danger she’s been in, it would turn Nymeria into the death of it.

#arya stark #meta #arya meta #anonymous #ok logging off for shabbat now

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