#Littlefinger's trial

[hylialeia]

[taking you by the shoulders] game of thrones was never good, seasons 1-4 were only well-liked because they were consistently adapting book material that sometimes felt compelling when they decided not to strip it of its context or accidentally kept the significance of its original impact and themes. the show always had a problem with shock value for the sake of itself and an ultimately shallow motive that directly opposed the books themselves, which rotted the adaption's core; any enjoyable material was a fluke resulting from the efforts of good actors and book-canon, as evidenced by the sharp decrease in quality (or "quality") when the showrunners had to choose between adapting the most thematically rich moments in the series or making a mad dash to their imagined Shocking Twist finish line

#don't lie to yourselves anymore be free #s1 had the littlefinger sex worker monologue and introduced tyrion as some lecherous pleasure focused drunk #s2 butchered the dany in qarth storyline so badly I've blocked most of it from my memory #s3 look how they massacred my girlies cat and robb and brienne #s4 what did you do to oberyn... to the tyrells... to the jaime cersei story arc #(<- credit where it's due at least the tyrion trial monologue fucked severely) #(but what's it matter if they sacrificed tyrion's whole arc and robbed us of dinklage's performance as anything but audience surrogate??) #s5-s8 is self explanatory. #anti got #asoiaf

[agentrouka-blog]

For Sansa to put Lf in a trial and giving him a death penalty, she needs witnesses right? But who are this people? I mean she has her own testimony, but i feel she will need other people too. It's just no one comes to my mind but his own minions who need him alive, i guess.

That's why I don't think that Sansa is going to put Littlefinger on trial for betraying Ned directly.

I mean, for one, it's legally dicey to prosecute someone for pretending to go along with and then betraying a political coup aimed at overthrowing the ruling dynasty - based on an unproven hunch that the heir is illegitimate. That's a very protagonist centered view of justice. We know Ned was correct in his assumption because Cersei confirmed it to him in private. But it's not possible to prove this, nor that Littlefinger had reason to believe it to be true at the time. He served as a loyal subject of the crown in King's Landing to the outside observer. Why would anyone convict Littlefinger of a crime here and call that justice?

And there is also zero way of proving he had any hand in manipulating Joffrey into executing Ned. Same thing applies, what crime can he be convicted of here? Not supporting the Starks because that's simply morally correct? Hardly.

Killing Lysa? Sansa herself is the only witness and she herself corroborated his version of events in front of the Vale lords. It's her word against his now, unless they have Marillion stashed away somewhere, and how credible a witness can he be, after confessing to the crime before?

Poisoning Sweetrobin? Unless the kid actually dies, there's no crime, and unlike the maester following his orders, Littlefinger can credibly claim ignorance of the long-term effects.

A hint at what will possibly happen may be Janos Slynt.

Janos Slynt is not executed by Jon for betraying Ned. He's not executed for being Mean To Jon(tm) either. Or for being a Lannister loyalist even. He is executed for a very ordinary, actually avoidable, acute case of insubordination. Jon gave him an order. Slynt refused. Jon handed him a very severe punishment that was, however, considered legal within the circumstances.

If Littlefinger is convicted of a crime it's going to be one that is actually provable, probably unrelated to his major betrayals of House Stark, related to recent/current events in a way that actually warrants the harsh punishment he has coming in general.

My vote goes to trying to manipulate the succession in the North, either relating to Jeyne Poole (should she be able to credibly testify that he had a hand in the plot to make her "Arya") or to a future attempt to interfere with Rickon, Sansa or Jon. Perhaps it may even be something entirely else. An avoidable trap he walks into based on his own sense of invincibility, just like Slynt.

#rouka queue #littlefinger #trials #vengeance v. justice #sansa stark

[racefortheironthrone]

I just came across this bit of reddit dribble and was curious what your opinions were:

“Tywin doesn't think he's smarter than he is. I'm not just saying this because he is actually pretty smart, but because he doesn't overestimate his intelligence or it's ability to get him and his family out of trouble. So much of what he does in the series is defensive actions based on the assumption that his enemies know what they are doing and are smart enough to be threats.

You have to remember, he doesn't actually start anything. He sent the Mountain to raid in the Riverlands because Cat kidnapped Tyrion unprovoked. That actually gave him Casus Belli against the the Tully's at minimum, and the Starks once Jamie confronted Ned about it and Ned backed up Cat, and the Arryns once Lysa imprisoned Tyrion. Tywin tried to avoid open war by raiding instead, as a means to pressure Hoster Tully to influence his girls to let Tyrion go. It was an action that could be easily walked back if Tyrion was released, allowing everyone to move on. Everyone involved should have recognized that Tywin was within his rights to outright invade the Riverlands in response to the kidnapping, and his merely raiding was restraint meant to leave room for de-escalation. The problem was that Lysa was insane, Cat and Ned were morons being manipulated by Little finger, and Hoster was incapable due to illness. Tywin overestimated the intelligence of his opponents in this instance, by a lot. He also never underestimates the Tyrells, unlike everyone else, because he understands how cunning Olena is and how she runs the House. While everyone else assumes the Tyrells are jokes, Tywin understands that he has to keep them happy. He likely figured out that Olena was the mastermind behind Joffrey's death and chooses to scapegoat Tyrion to maintain the alliance.”

How does the line go, "every word you just said is wrong"?

Cat did not just kidnap Tyrion, she exercised her rights as a noblewoman to have him arrested - that's why Tyrion is put on trial at the Eyrie. The proper response to that is to use his family's position at court to win a trivially easy legal case and completely maneuver his political rivals out of royal office by exposing them as paranoid and lawless, not to send the word's most identifiable deniable asset to attack the Riverlands, making his enemies the injured party. Far from avoiding open war, Tywin got maneuvered by Hoster and Ned into violating the King's Peace and committing open treason by attacking the King's banner. If Robert hadn't conveniently dropped dead exactly when he does, Tywin would have been denounced and attainted as a rebel.

Likewise, Tywin was losing the war in the Riverlands when the opportunity for the Red Wedding dropped into his lap, and almost lost the Crownlands too if it hadn't been for Littlefinger's "just in time" arrival bailing him out.

[adarkandmagicalforest]

can i just make it known that there is a huge difference between shipping Sansa with the Hound vs shipping Sansa with Littlefinger?

its the difference between a flawed, damaged person who's been hurt by the world and his own family but still wants to do whats right as far as he possibly can, who has softer, tender feelings for a girl who reminds him so much like he used to be and both wants to open her eyes to the world that wants to hurt her in order to protect her

and a damaged man whose experiences with the world has turned him truly rotten, has made him coveteous, has made him ambitious and ruthless. who yes wants to protect Sansa, but to an EXTENT. he wants to protect Sansa because he views ownership over her, like she belongs to him, that she is his prize for destroying the families who he views as having stolen his possibilities ans future from him (the Starks for Cat and humiliating him after their trial by combat, the Arryns for looking down on his station, the Tullys for casting him out)

The Hound is someone who knows that Sansa would never want him, but fights to protect her anyway.

But Littlefinger would sooner see Sansa dead before ever letting her choose another man over him as Catelyn did.

#sansa stark #sandor clegane #petyr baelish #the hound #littlefinger #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #sansan #alayne stone

[fromtheseventhhell]

It took her back to her childhood, to long grey days at Riverrun. She remembered the godswood, drooping branches heavy with moisture, and the sound of her brother’s laughter as he chased her through piles of damp leaves. She remembered making mud pies with Lysa, the weight of them, the mud slick and brown between her fingers. They had served them to Littlefinger, giggling, and he’d eaten so much mud he was sick for a week. How young they all had been. (Catelyn V, AGOT) None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. (Sansa I, AGOT)

--

“He did not know you,” Ser Rodrik said after, wondering. “He saw a pair of mud-spattered travelers by the side of the road, wet and tired. It would never occur to him to suspect that one of them was the daughter of his liege lord. I think we shall be safe enough at the inn, Ser Rodrik.” (Catelyn V, AGOT) “What were you doing to that cat, boy?” Myrcella asked again, sternly. To her brother she said, “He’s a ragged boy, isn’t he? Look at him.” She giggled. “A ragged dirty smelly boy,” Tommen agreed. They don’t know me, Arya realized. They don’t even know I’m a girl. Small wonder; she was barefoot and dirty, her hair tangled from the long run through the castle, clad in a jerkin ripped by cat claws and brown roughspun pants hacked off above her scabby knees. You don’t wear skirts and silks when you’re catching cats. (Arya III, AGOT)

--

Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match. (Catelyn VI, ACOK) “And Arya, well…Ned’s visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart’s desire. She had Ned’s long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collect dolls, and would say anything that came into her head. (Catelyn VII, ACOK)

--

He had forgotten Catelyn, until the iron brazier came crashing into the back of his head. Helmed as he was, the blow did no lasting harm, but it sent him to his knees. “Brienne, with me,” Catelyn commanded. The girl was not slow to see the chance. A slash, and the green silk parted. They stepped out into darkness and the chill of dawn. Loud voices came from the other side of the pavilion. “This way,” Catelyn urged, “and slowly. We must not run, or they will ask why. Walk easy, as if nothing were amiss.” (Catelyn IV, ACOK) It was the scariest thing she’d ever done. She wanted to run and hide, but she made herself walk across the yard, slowly, putting one foot in front of the other as if she had all the time in the world and no reason to be afraid of anyone. She thought she could feel their eyes, like bugs crawling on her skin under her clothes. Arya never looked up. If she saw them watching, all her courage would desert her, she knew, and she would drop the bundle of clothes and run and cry like a baby, and then they would have her. She kept her gaze on the ground. By the time she reached the shadow of the royal sept on the far side of the yard, Arya was cold with sweat, but no one had raised the hue and cry. (Arya IV, AGOT)

--

“I’m almost a man grown, and a king—your king, ser. And I don’t fear Jaime Lannister. I defeated him once, I’ll defeat him again if I must, only …” He pushed a fall of hair out of his eyes and gave a shake of the head. “I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but …” “… but not for the girls?” Her voice was icy quiet. “Girls are not important enough, are they?” (Catelyn I, ACOK) That much was true, Arya knew. Knights were captured and ransomed all the time, and sometimes women were too. But what if Robb won’t pay their price? She wasn’t a famous knight, and kings were supposed to put the realm before their sisters. And her lady mother, what would she say? Would she still want her back, after all the things she’d done? Arya chewed her lip and wondered. (Arya IV, ASOS)

Some parallels between Arya and Catelyn that I noticed during my re-read. It's interesting to see not only how similar they are, but also see how many moments they have that directly mirror each other.

#arya stark #catelyn tully #catelyn stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #I will add more as I come across them #Hurray for Arya and Cat parallels that actually look at how they're similar and not just reduce them down to being /feral uwu/! #Their relationship has always driven me crazy because they are so similar and yet Cat was still so hard on Arya #ahhhhh the fucked up relationship between mothers and daughters!!!! mothers who think they're doing what's best #and the daughters who suffer for it ahhhhh!!!!! #obviously they love each other but they very obviously have their issues and them being so alike makes it that much more fascinating #I'll always be mad that we (for now) don't have any one page interactions between them

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Not to demonize Cat but the woman literally said Arya was a trial and she wanted her to be like Sansa; she admired Edmure’s efforts to look after his people but at the same time she saw them as useless mouths to feed; she wanted 14 year old Jon out of his own home in Winterfell. How is that supposed to be similar to him? Same with Sansa being Ned 2.0 just because she’s in the Vale. She doesn’t recall any of his lessons like his other kids do. He is a man who lived and died for his family and was overall well liked by his people. He carried Lyanna’s secret to his grave. Sansa snitched on her family (bitterly regretting it) because she was in love with the little psycho who tried to murder her sister and she barely had any contact with the smallfolk. The math doesn’t add up. Just reads like a Jon/sa fetich of NedCat 2.0, same people who insist Jon longs for Cat’s love and approval since he has oedipus complex or whatever. But one can not erase canon and none of the women Jon felt attracted to had anything to do with Cat. They need milk of the copey.

Yes, I agree with you.

Comparing Catelyn saying that Arya was "a trial" while the latter was missing to Jon gifting Arya the Needle, it's clear that those two characters view Arya's behavior differently.

Arya herself was doubting that her mother would want her ( which mind you wasn't true, Catelyn wanted both her daughters back. But it says a lot about the impression she had given to her child through her behavior). Meanwhile, she was certain that Jon would want her even if no one else would. Jon's acceptance is wholeheartedly, he doesn't criticize Arya's parts their society considers unwomanly ( and in fact, all the girls he finds attractive share those traits of hers).

Here is the thoughts of Catelyn when her brother gives shelter to innocent people in Riverlands war zone:

Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege.

ACOK - Catelyn I

Jon Snow in ADWD is doing exactly what Catelyn is criticizing her brother for, he gives shelter to "useless mouths" ( aka all the Wildings that can't contribute to the fight against the Others).

Jon's worldview, beliefs and behavior is so different from Catelyn's that it's laughable to claim that "he's Catelyn with Ned/Lyanna's characteristics". Do they have a couple of things/ traits in common? Surely, but so does almost any pair of pov characters. That doesn't mean all of them are copies of each other.

Moving to Sansa, I disagree with the fandom's notion that she's Ned 2.0. As you said, she doesn't recall his lessons like his other children do. That's not to condemn her because Ned taught mainly the boys and Catelyn was responsible for the girls ' education ( Arya is the exception here because we know that she liked to follow her father and see him performing his duties as the Castle's Lord).

And then there is the scene where Sansa tells Cersei her father's plan. Again, I'm not gonna codemn a 11 years old for making a silly decision but considering that a major theme in Ned's story is that he never revealed his sister's secret, preferring to soil his honor in order to protect it I fail to see the similarities between father and daughter in terms of personal values and priorities.

As I often say, Sansa was way closer to her mother than she ever was to her father and she shares some core beliefs with her ( plus her narrative comparison to Cat is important due to the Littlefinger obsession with both of them). So if the fans want to link Sansa to any of her parents, Catelyn the correct choice imo.

On a side note, I'm sure that you probably meant no harm but I don't like the word "psycho" to describe awful characters. Joffrey was a little shit but that was because he was spoiled by his mother and neglected by his father. He didn't have any psychosis. Mental illnesses affect real people and that's why I don't like seeing them being used as slurs.

#asoiaf ask #laren-dorrs

[goodqueenaly]

Having recently read Thomas Costain’s The Black Rose, I have now also finished another Costain historical fiction novel, The Moneyman. To (very) briefly summarize, The Moneyman is the story of a real-life figure, Jacques Cœur, a merchant raised to the nobility by King Charles VII of France and made the king’s chief finance minister and one of his closest advisors, only to be disgraced and exiled after a false accusation of murder is laid against him by that same king. As I mentioned in my last post, The Moneyman is supposedly GRRM’s favorite of Costain’s works, so I was very intrigued to see if GRRM would borrow any ideas or character models from The Moneyman for his Westerosi works.

Unfortunately, once again I find very little to parallel with ASOIAF. The titular Moneyman himself might be as rich as Littlefinger, but the charges of embezzlement falsely levied against Cœur would be all too accurate if laid at Littlefinger’s door. Indeed, Cœur's deep, honest, but not sycophantic loyalty to Charles VII - a willingness to tell the king the truth coupled with a desire to look out for the best interests of the kingdom - could not be more alien to Littlefinger, whose selfishness and dishonesty are central to his personality. (In fact, the closer parallel to the Moneyman might be someone like Enguerrand de Marigny of The Accursed Kings.) I suppose you could compare Cœur to say, Davos Seaworth - the honest common man raised to the nobility by a grateful king - but Cœur is, well, defined by his substantial personal fortune in a way Davos obviously is not (because he has none, of course), nor can Charles VII’s petty jealousy of Cœur's wealth (and his subsequent willingness to condemn his devoted servant on trumped-up charges) be compared to anything in the relationship between Davos and Stannis. 

Now, is it possible that GRRM took a bit of inspiration from Cœur's trial at the end of the book for Tyrion’s trial at the end of ASOS? Maybe. Just as Tyrion was falsely accused of poisoning Joffrey, Coeur is falsely accused of poisoning Lady Agnes Sorel, the beloved mistress of King Charles. In both cases, the author makes very clear that the accused was not in fact guilty of the crime by setting the reader in the accuser’s point of view at the time of the supposed poisoning, while simultaneously using circumstantial and/or outright fabricated evidence to make the case against the accused seem that much more damning. (Nor, indeed, is an explanation lacking in either case: the author makes clear many times, through Cœur as well as other characters, that Agnes Sorel is too sickly to live long, while Littlefinger explains the Joffrey poisoning plot to Sansa in pretty plain terms after the Purple Wedding.) Just as Tyrion’s physical proximity to and post-murder handling of Joffrey’s wedding cup helped sell the testimonies to his guilt at his trial, so Coeur’s administration of medicine to the dying Agnes Sorel is used by the prosecution to portray Coeur as a fiendish poisoner. Too, much as Taena Merryweather falsely testified that she had seen Tyrion pour poison into Joffrey’s cup, followed by Shae's false testimony as to Tyrion and Sansa’s allegedly conspiracy, so on the stand at Cœur's trial Jeanne de Vendôme fabricates an elaborate story of poisoning which she supposedly witnessed firsthand. Additionally, just as Pycelle (correctly) reported that Tyrion had taken poisons from his stores in order to falsely suggest that Tyrion gave poison to Joffrey, so one witness at Coeur’s trial - a doctor whom Cœur privately derides as a “great windbag … pedantic and opinionated and yet at the same time servile to all forms of authority”, not too far off the mark from Pycelle himself - seizes on Cœur's real, though harmless, mercantile association with the East to falsely link Cœur to the “Eastern poison” which supposedly killed Agnes Sorel. Cœur also offers to confess to a crime he knows he did not commit, in order to save his alleged co-conspirator (though he later rescinds this proposal); somewhat similarly, Kevan offered, in vain, to have Tyrion confess in exchange for permanent exile at the Wall (an offer that I think was genuine on Tywin’s part). 

Now, while Cœur is not allowed to offer any defense on his own part (much as Tyrion was not at his trial), Cœur, unlike Tyrion, actually gets exonerated for the poisoning allegation, thanks to the testimony of an honest doctor who identifies the flaws in the case against Cœur. (Though Cœur is convicted of what Costain asserts were equally ludicrous charges and forced into permanent exile.) Of course, Costain didn’t invent the idea of trumped-up charges and patently untrue accusations in a legal trial (and Costain himself clearly states in his introduction and epilogue that he has, so he believes, adhered as closely to the real history of Cœur's downfall as possible), so it’s not that I think GRRM is uniquely indebted to Costain for Tyrion’s trial. Rather, while I think both are borrowing the same old tropes for similar stories, I can also acknowledge that this specific usage of those tropes may have been part of the inspiration for GRRM. 

#asoiaf meta #thomas costain #the moneyman #tyrion lannister

[ichorai]

new anon here ! i’ve been thinking so much about jaime and the bitter wolf. i’m very curious about her fate (what direction she sort of goes in, or if she survives) towards the end of the show and how / when she reunites with jaime after he helps her escape kings landing !

— 🐢

i'm definitely not planning on following the events of the show bcs after a certain point it just becomes utter shit so i'll def be going in my own direction! still working out the kinks, but rest assured that jaime and the bitter wolf will meet again :)

cut off for spoilers (in case anyone would rather just read the fic whenever it comes out rather than read the plan for the plot)!

right after the bitter wolf leaves king's landing, she sets off to find sansa, and jaime will also leave king's landing for the seige of riverrun (like in the books)! i'm planning for the bitter wolf to go on her own journey for quite a while. she changes her appearance by dyeing her hair a different color. she runs into trouble on sea and has to head inland. she crosses through one of the fishing villages near duskendale and heads towards the riverlands to get to the eyrie.

at maidenpool, she comes across brienne of tarth. brienne informs the bitter wolf about sandor clegane, and how she thinks he has sansa (when in fact, he has arya). this contradicts with what varys told her with sansa in the eyrie, but the bitter wolf trusts brienne far more than varys. she wonders if varys is conspiring with littlefinger and lied to her about sansa's whereabouts, if the eyrie is a trap of sorts.

brienne and the bitter wolf (and pod) search through the riverlands for sandor clegane, but are later told that he's dead. they come across rorge (masquerading as sandor) near the trident and get in a skirmish with him and his group. brienne is brutally wounded as she tries to protect the bitter wolf, but the bitter wolf mistakenly believes that she has died. the bitter wolf flees the trident and heads east towards the eyrie. it was her last hope to find sansa.

she asks an inkeeper about the vale, and learns that lysa arryn is dead, and petyr baelish is now the lord of the eyrie. this throws a wrench in the bitter wolf's plans, as she now can't just stroll into the vale without the threat of littlefinger giving her back to cersei lannister. not sure who to trust and what to do, the bitter wolf abandons her plans to go to the eyrie. this turns her back to the riverlands. the riverlands are js a never-ending doom cycle they can never escape istg

at a small village, she hears talk of the disastrous sieges in the riverlands with jaime lannister at the head of it all. she heads to pennytree, where she hears they have made camp. there, she meets with brienne and jaime. both are shocked to see her, and she is shocked to see brienne alive. jaime and bitter wolf catch up, and she finds herself angry with what he is doing (all the sieges in the riverlands helping house frey take over the tullys). this puts them at odds with each other because yk the freys murdered her nephew. the bitter wolf was already struggling to forgive him for what he did to bran, and now she finds herself completely torn with jaime. what's worse is that she's definitely still in love with him, and just doesn't know what to do.

i'm still struggling to figure out what to do with brienne/lady stoneheart because we're still not sure of brienne's intentions in the book and whether or not she lies to jaime and is going to betray him, or if she's just biding time, or if jaime will die at stoneheart's hands, or if there will be a trial by combat of some sorts, or if jaime will simply be taken captive again, or if he'll be released from stoneheart somehow. i'm also trying to figure out what the relationship between lady stoneheart and bitter wolf will be </3 i js know it'll be a lot of pain ;-;

i'm exploring options rn! but i love jaime and bitter wolf so bad </3 juggling between several different pathways where the bitter wolf is put in a position against jaime and sides with stoneheart because of all his seiges on the tullys. like the tragic trope of having to fight the person you love etc etc

or i could go with the bitter wolf telling stoneheart about sansa in the eyrie and begs to have jaime redeem himself and fulfill his oath by having him go and save sansa. but idk if stoneheart would ever let go of jaime alive ykwim ???

if any of you have suggestions or would js like to discuss the story moving forward i'd love to hear it :)

#i'm not made by design #bitter wolf is sooo near and dear to my heart #part two is still being planned out bcs it's so hard to plan out with all the tiny details and also working around the show/book canon #but if anyone wants to chime in their input it'd be greatly appreciated !!! :) #this story is so hard to plan omfg

[wearenorth]

Sansa's main reason why the North should be independent is that "The Northmen had suffered too much to ever accept the rule of an outsider again". Ok, but if you look closely, the Starks are basically the sole reason why the North suffered:

It was Lyanna Stark who ran away with Rhaegar (not hate on them, but technically that's the only narrative we can go with till GRRM gives the full story) and that, as a lot of people like to say, is the reason why Robert's rebellion started.

It was Brandon Stark who came to the Red Keep for Rhaegar "to come out and die" - Bradon openly, for everyone to hear, threatened the crown prince - mad king or no, look from whatever angle you want, that's a treason.

It was Rickard Stark who chose trial by combat thinking that he will fight someone from the Kingsguard - that's via Jaime Lannisters sort of a testament.

It was Ned Stark who rallied the North and joined Robert's rebellion leading thousands to death.

It was Ned Stark who chose to finish the war by going to lift the siege of the Storm's End.

It was Ned Stark who went to the Tower of Joy with 7 other lords from the North and chose to fight the Kinsguard. A fight that left only him and Howland Reed alive.

It was Ned Stark who decided to ignore the warning from the deserter from the NW about white walkers and his upcoming future.

It was Ned Stark who agreed to Joffrey-Sansa's marriage proposal as well as agreed to become Hand of the King and go to the South.

It was Ned Stark who made many mistakes, trusted the wrong people and ignored Cercei's warning - some of the reasons for his imprisonment.

It was Sansa Stark who ran to Cercei and told her all Ned plans - though this was cut out from the show.

It was Catelyn Stark that ordered for Tyrion to be arrested and brought to justice - which led to the Lannisters taking this as a slight and threat for them.

It was Sansa Stark who wrote a letter to Robb and most likely Catelyn too letting them know about Ned's imprisonment and supposed treason, as well as the one who called her family traitors for her own survival.

It was Robb Stark that rallied the Northern lords and raised his army and led them into battles, because Ned was imprisoned.

It was Robb Stark that sacrificed nearly 2000 men for the victory.

Though it was Robb who needed alliance with the Freys, it was Catelyn Stark who brokered this alliance on shity terms.

It was Robb Stark who demanded that Lannisters would recognise the North as an independent kingdom - something that Lannisters would never do.

It was Robb Stark who left the North mostly defenseless and who sent Theon to deal with the iron borns - which lead to their invasion to the North, Winterfell and most keeps to the west to be taken.

It was Robb Stark who broke alliance with the Freys by marrying Talisa.

It was Catelyn Stark who created discord among the North - Riverlands army by realising Jaime Lannister, which also led to Rickard Karstarks disobedience and his men's departure.

It was Robb Stark's justice that led for the remaining Karstarks to join Boltons on the Starks quest on taking back the North.

It was Robb Stark's mistakes that lead to majority of the northerners either refuse or ignore the Starks call on their quest on taking back the North.

It was Sansa Stark who demanded that the northern lords would fight for them and was refused (for example, Lord Glover).

It was Sansa Stark who didn't say anything about the Knights of the Vale and let nearly all combined army of northerners - wildlings to die - that's about 3000 men (since Boltons had about 6000 men and Ramsay said that Jon's army is half the size). But nobody seems to care about that.

It was Sansa Stark, influenced by Littlefinger, who did nothing to stop discord among the northern lords during the time Jon spent in the South. Actually, you can see how Sansa reeps benefits from it.

It was Jon Snow who decided to tell Cersei that he already bent the knee to Daenerys during peace negotiations with the Lannisters.

When Daenerys came to the North to fight for the living, it was Sansa Stark who disrespected Dany the most.

It was Sansa Stark who basically dismissed everyone's sacrifices after the Long Night.

It was Sansa Stark who broke the oath sworn in front of the Heart Tree by telling Tyrion about Jon's real parentage - what started the conspiracy to overthrow Dany. Technically, Sansa started another Dance of the Dragons.

It was Sansa Stark who wanted the northern army to "rest", instead of marching south for Daenerys.

It was Sansa Stark who brought "ten thousands northerners" to fight for Jon, who was imprisoned in the Red Keep, meaning she was ready to send thhem to fight (how she got those numbers still baffles me, cause in season 7 it was stated that northern army has fewer than ten thousands men and with with casualties from the Long Night, where everyone lost half their armies, the northern army is even smaller or maybe they didn't fight in the Long Night then).

And it was Sansa Stark who doomed the North to starvation and poverty by declaring themselves independent and by cutting all ties and help from the Iron Throne and other kingdoms. For example, there will be no one to regulate trade for 6 Kingdoms and the North, meaning that The Reach or the Vale can sale food for a bigger prices than to other regions, if the IT interferes, they'll side with 6 Kingdoms - the seller, cause the North is no longer the IT subject. And it's very well known that the North isn't rich.

Actually if you look in the history of the North while Targaryens ruled from the Iron Throne, you would see that the North had some minor conflicts, but still lived in peace. Probably, the only exception is how Cregan Stark rallied the "Wolves of winter" when he came to aid the Blacks near the end of the Dance of the Dragons.

#show starks are the villains #that sansa's line about the north's suffering just proves that they see themselves as the good guys #and wants us too seem them like that too and blame others for their mistakes #anti game of thrones #anti got #anti d&d #anti show starks

[sad-endings-suck]

Arya and Sansa ending up as bitter enemies by season 8 of GOT is wild to me because it is so clearly the exact opposite of what should have happened and even an oblivious writer could see that.

We see early in the show/books that Catelyn’s relationship with her sister Lysa has devolved to distance on Cat’s end and jealously and fear from Lysa, though they had been very close as young girls.

Sansa and Arya start out as having a lot of negative and complicated feelings with one another, so thematically they should be closer and more understanding to each other by the end of the story, to more positively mirror their mother’s relationship with her own sister.

But no, instead of being understanding or even having a sibling rivalry they literally want to kill each other. Like what the actual fuck. Their relationship had never been that bad, and we’re just supposed to believe that after not interacting at all for years and believing the other is dead their relationship somehow got much worse?

In the books Sansa even has a fond memory of Arya and Bran ambushing her with snowballs as a joke, and when Sansa slips on the ice and falls, Arya stops and runs over right away to see if she’s okay and then Sansa laughs and starts playing with them again. And you’re gonna tell me they want to kill each other?? No fucking way. They fought yes, but not like mortal enemies.

And they never even patch it up after they put Littlefinger on trial. They just, don’t do anything and then the show ends.

it’s such a sick joke.

#asoiaf #arya strak #sansa stark #house stark #got #got season 8 #littlefinger #catelyn stark #lysa tully

[wpmorse]

"You stand accused of regicide and kinslaying. Do you truly imagine you will be allowed to come and go as you please?" Ser Kevan waved at the table. "You have quill, ink, and parchment. Write the names of such witnesses as you require, and I shall do all in my power to produce them, you have my word as a Lannister. But you shall not leave this tower, except to go to trial."

Tyrion pg 895

Tyrion is locked in the tower for the murder of Joffrey. His uncle Kevan offers to bring any witnesses Tyrion wants but he won't let Tyrion do any of his own legwork. I have to confess this is one of the times I have had problems with this series.

While I know that even though A Song of Ice and Fire is inspired by the War of the Roses, Westeros is not 15th-century England. Having said that, the parallels are there. The legal profession was making a comeback in the 15th century and there was much more to the law than just chopping off thieves' hands.

There must be dozens of lawyers or the equivalent in Kings Landing available to do what Tyrion needs. I know this a show trial that is so rigged it offends kangaroos, and yes, I know I am reading far too much into this but I think that there should be more for Tyrion to work with here.

Of course, if I start nitpicking here, the next thing you know I'll be asking why Littlefinger doesn’t have a staff of 100 clerks.

#asoiaf #a storm of swords #pen and ink #illustration #kevan lannister #tyrion lannister

[poorshadowspaintedqueens]

In your opinion, what changes take place in the Meereen, Kings Landing and Dorne storylines should Doran Martell send Oberyn to the former and Quentyn to the capital, instead?

Hi, anon! I'm going to take a wild guess that you also listened to the most recent NotACast and were struck by @poorquentyn's remark that if Doran had switched the places of Quentyn and Oberyn, a very different Dornish plot would have resulted.

First off, absolutely. No question, things would have been very different, and, like several earlier thought-experiments they've done (I'm particularly reminded of the alternate Qarth plotline back in A Clash of Kings), there's a lot of interesting thematic shifts that happen.

We'll start with Quentyn, since his journey (theoretically) has just one destination: King's Landing. His purpose: To take the Dornish spot on the Small Council, to spy on the current regime, and to find weaknesses they can exploit long enough for Oberyn to return with Daenerys to sweep the board, as it were.

First of all, Quentyn Martell would definitely not make the same social or reputational splash that Oberyn did. He does not conform to the obvious Dornish stereotypes, and his less flamboyant personality means he's better able to observe without being noted himself. (Not that Oberyn is a bad spy; he's excellent at hiding in plain sight and making enough of a spectacle of himself that everyone around him gives themselves away. But Quentyn is different.) He'd probably interact politely enough with Tyrion, but would lack that underlying connection that Oberyn felt, which makes it far less likely that the Dornish faction would intervene so obviously in the trial by combat. It seems a safe assumption that the Purple Wedding would still go forward as planned, since that was a Tyrell/Littlefinger plot, but I agree with @poorquentyn and Manu that at least part of Oberyn's plan in OTL was to sow discord within House Lannister by cultivating a possible alliance with Tyrion, so that element of the plot would likely disappear.

Now, what I could see happening instead is Quentyn making some attempt to reach out to Sansa, rather than Tyrion, but Sansa is so far out of the loop on everything at this point, that I don't know that Quentyn would get very far. Most likely, he'd get swept along in the wedding preparations and witness the fallout from "Tyrion" poisoning Joffrey without necessarily intervening. After all, his goal is to gather information, not to make waves. But since Varys is still plotting his own coup in the backdrop, I suspect Tyrion would still survive under these circumstances, and would still escape King’s Landing after murdering Tywin.

Where I think things would change significantly is in Dany’s storyline, and potentially Young Griff’s, depending on exactly where Oberyn goes and what travel path he takes. We know that Oberyn is the one who signed the marriage pact with the Sealord of Braavos and Ser Willem Darry shortly after Dany’s birth, promising Dany and Viserys to two of Doran’s children. That seems to indicate that he has no involvement in or knowledge of Varys and Illyrio’s plans. But Oberyn’s past participation in the sellsword trade in Essos means there are information sources and avenues open to him that aren’t to other people. He could hypothetically start toward Slavers’ Bay and Daenerys only to discover that Jon Connington (who he knew from before Robert’s Rebellion) is in fact still alive and had an unexpected blue-haired kid who may or may not be Oberyn’s long-lost nephew. Given what we know about Oberyn’s closeness to Elia, and the potential ramifications of a male Targaryen heir on the loose, even this plot change would give Oberyn plenty of opportunities to go down in glorious flames just like he does in OTL.

In the alternative, if we assume that Oberyn either doesn’t get the hot Golden Company gossip in time, or he has enough self-control to stay focused on his main assignment, he would probably make his way to Slavers’ Bay via Volantis, much the same way Quentyn did, but I expect he’d travel more quickly thanks to age and experience. (Bonus points if he’s got Marwyn and Alleras with him, and dammit now I want to read this AU.) Barristan and Belwas have already joined Dany’s entourage by now, and it seems unlikely that Oberyn would intercept her before then, but I expect that if he encountered Barristan in Dany’s train, the two men would recognise one another in short order. As for Dany herself, in Oberyn, she would have a rare glimpse into at least the events of the Harrenhal tourney (where Oberyn was present) and more information about her brother Rhaegar.

PQ and Manu both pointed out that Daario Naharis is clearly cut from the same mould as Oberyn, though (imo) far less interesting. So if Dany meets Oberyn first, unless Oberyn meets a differently sticky end, poor Daario doesn’t stand a chance.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #asoiaf au #oberyn martell #quentyn martell #daenerys targaryen #tyrion lannister

[agentrouka-blog]

I'm sorry if you've answered this (I checked your LF tag, but I might've missed it), but how is Sansa killing Littlefinger?

Hi anon!

I haven't posted any detailed theories about that because I don't have any yet. The only thing I am expecting from it with a certainty is that it will be done by the Stark sisters in concert (potentially involving Jeyne Poole directly as well), in Winterfell, in a public trial of sorts. Their shared theme of travesty trials is too strong not to let their shared triumph be framed as a proper one.

They will likely trap him into that trial beforehand. The situation is going to have to mirror his betrayal of Ned in some way, as well as his manipulation of Lysa, so my guess is he'll believe he's pulling the strings in a familiar puppet dance, only for the puppets to turn on him the way he turned it on Ned and Lysa.

In order to make that happen, it's probably going to involve unanswered Stark succession questions, and a potential coup in the North, something that is leading up to a confrontation he is expecting, but with an outcome he is not expecting.

It'll probably be the most ruthless we'll ever see Sansa, since she'll have to play her part to perfection, with lots of callbacks to lessons Littlefinger himself taught her, a sort of distracting emotional manipulation to keep him from noticing what happens in the background, likely based on a practical plan devised by brilliant Arya, similarly to how she observed and assassinated the pointy-bearded merchant.

For Sansa, it will be the moment she assumes full autonomy, takes control into her own hands and at the same time embraces her sister without any reservation, no matter how different from herself. She will be killing her dark mentor and communicating loud and clear what it means that the Starks are back. No games, clear justice, and back to focusing on the real problems that need solving. Basically, a key moment in her queenship arc, even if it may actually involve her rejecting that title for the moment.

For Arya, we'll likely see a very emotional inner journey because not only will there be real justice done - justice for Ned - but she will not have to do it alone. No names mumbled in bed at night, no secretive lonely sneaking, no games of chance at the mercy of other people's caprice. Cooperative, communal justice, a sense of order in a world of chaos, and she will play a proper part in it, a "clean" part not a murky one, or a powerless one. As a member of her pack. They are House Stark now and they get to decide what that means, and Arya will make it count.

Basically, somewhat like the show's horrific Winterhell plot, but done right.

#littlefinger #sansa stark #arya stark #asoiaf speculation #trials #poetic justice #stark sisters

[purpleblackmask]

A part of me wants a scene for Season 3 to be like Arya and Sansa Stark checkmating Littlefinger in Game of Thrones.

*Crowley is led to his trial*

Crowley: Are you sure you want to do this?

Aziraphale: It's not what I want, it's what doing the right thing demands.

Crowley: And what does doing the right thing demand?

Aziraphale: That I'd defend Heaven from those who want to harm it. That I'd defend it from those who want to betray its values.

Crowley: ... Alright then. Get on with it.

Aziraphale: You stand accused of treason. You stand accused of killing the Almighty. How do you answer these charges... *turns head to the left* Metatron?

Metatron: *the-f-is-going-on-here face*

Crowley: *grinning* The Supreme Archangel asked you a question.

Also because I want an excuse for Crowley then acting all goofy in listing all Metatron's sins while being dressed as a judge/procurator with dress and wig and all that.

Bonus points if Aziraphale is dead serious and silent and never taking his eyes off Metatron for all the thing.

#can i get a wahoo #metatron your time is up and you freaking deserve this #also that implies that Aziraphale and Crowley had chances to meet and orchestrate all of this #ok I definetely wanna see this #good omens #good omens season 3 #good omens spoilers #my post

[adarkandmagicalforest]

my dream scenario for littlefingers end varies, but whether its him dying in a trial by combat, forced to fight against one of sansas champions, mirroring his duel with brandon stark or him just accidentally coming across lady stoneheart, the resurrected corpse of the woman he's always claimed to have loved and being hanged by her for his treachery, just know

in every single one of them he is being just so cunty

#its the aidan gilian of it all i think #those slutty grey streaks and utter lack of morality make me feral for this cunty grown up incel twink #littlefinger #petyr baelish #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #game of thrones #sansa stark #lady stoneheart

[kellyvela]

Sansa and Lysa = have sisters favoured by their fathers

Sansa and Lysa = fathers kill someone very close to their daughters. Hoster forces abortion on Lysa and Ned kills Lady. Both fathers dedicate their last moments to their daughters.

Sansa and Lysa = shift blame towards the wrong party. Sansa blaming Arya instead of Joffrey and Cersei for Lady's execution. Lysa blaming Cat for her trials and tribulations in life.

Sansa and Lysa = both trapped in unhappy marriages to men considerably older than them.

Sansa and Lysa = both manipulated by Littlefinger.

Sansa and Lysa = acting as Lady of Eyrie

Sansa and Lysa = being mothers to Sweetrobin

Sansa and Lysa = both having fondness for singers

Sansa and Lysa = both using a certain milk to nourish SweetRobin. Lysa using breadtmilk and Sansa administering sweetsleep to prevent his seizures.

Sansa and Lysa = both involved in plots related to poisoning of Lords of Vale

Of course Arya has parallels with Lysa with the jealous younger daughter thing and some of Sansa's arc can be drawn in parallels to Lyanna. But in truth Sansa's parallels are directed more towards her maternal aunt and Arya's are more towards her paternal aunt.

Thank you, Anon. You missed this one:

Sansa and Lysa = Called radiant. Lysa by Catelyn the day she married Jon Arryn. Sansa by Jon Snow the day she walked with her future betrothed Joffrey Baratheon entering to Winterfell's Great Hall.

Also some of those can be summarized in just one and most of the rest are foils. More in this post that already said it better.

Then I have to return the favor:

Here's a list of Sansa/Lyanna paralells.

Bonus: The Blue Winter Rose connection.

Thanks again :)

Anon's message was an answer to this post

#anon asks #sansa stark #the war of the aunts #i also have a list of arya/cersei parallels if anyone is interested #lol