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justanotherwriter140 · 2 months

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Kung Fu Panda 4 - The Movie

The last really, really long discussion post (for now).

Major spoilers ahead!

This review is full of spoilers, so please refrain from reading through it until you've watched KFP4. I would highly suggest doing so, as I want everyone to form their own opinions without my influence. The movie has its flaws (some of which admittedly being a bit distracting), but it's a fun film that has things to offer.

Kung Fu Panda 4 is a fun movie (take that as you will) that takes its audience on an action-packed, surprisingly funny, yet relatively contained adventure on which Po doesn't really do much. It's an inconsequential, safe sequel that doesn't really hurt the franchise but adds close to nothing.

I had a good time watching the movie. It was obviously produced with its theater experience in mind and the action scenes especially reflected that priority. The humor was actually funny sometimes and I enjoyed Po and Zhen's dynamic. During the film, I was able to put most (most!) of my grievances aside and take the movie for what it is. I've discovered that the best way to watch KFP4 is with low expectations and an open mind.

I have a lot of things to say about KFP4, both complaints and compliments (though the former might be taking the forefront in this review), and I hope this review can help those of you who have seen the movie organize your thoughts. I've been having a lot of trouble with that specific aspect of things myself. Those who get it get it.

With that said, let's get into my full review of KFP4! I've been waiting for nearly 2 years to write this and I'm so excited to share every single thought.

I'm going to follow the format of my first discussion post and curate a bulleted list of my thoughts, followed by an analysis of each of these points. Keep in mind that everything I say is IMO and this is more of a rant post than anything else.

Here are my main points:

The Furious Five's role is comically minuscule in the context of the film. Their actions are inconsequential and add nothing to the plot (a confirmed last-minute add), and they have 30~ seconds of screen time. Shifu is also largely irrelevant.

Mr. Ping and Li's presence has little to no effect on the movie (though I won't complain too much because they were pretty fun to watch and this movie has bigger problems). In almost any scenario, I am adamantly against having characters present that don't add anything to the narrative; however, Mr. Ping is an exception. I love Mr. Ping. James Hong is a gem.

Zhen's screen time is not utilized well and her character is underdeveloped. She definitely wasn't annoying, but I didn't find her either compelling or funny enough to warrant the screen time she was given, especially considering it wasn't used to establish a backstory/strong motives. This makes me feel bad for the character because the movie kind of screwed her out of any substantial development.

The Chameleon, while complimented greatly by Viola Davis, is an underwhelming villain. Viola Davis is amazing in this film and I would suggest watching it for her performance if for nothing else, but the Chameleon is underwhelming considering the super cool concept behind the character.

The film feels very rushed. Apologies to those who disagree, but I think the pacing is atrocious and the final fight is anticlimactic. The movie felt like a word-vomit with no discernible intermissions that stops abruptly when the film ends.

I felt as though Po didn't change/grow as a person and the audience never had a chance to either bond with or relate to his character. His internal struggle is kept to a minimum and we don't spend a moment alone with him as an audience, which is disorienting and distracting. Watching the film felt like running into an old friend at the store who's too in a rush to have a real conversation.

The action scenes were strong with few exceptions. Creative art direction was utilized and I thought the martial arts choreography was entertaining and dynamic. I love the color palette of the film and many scenes were very impressive visually.

With my main points established, I do believe it's ranting time. Strap in, folks.

Let's start strong with the Furious Five: I'm gutted. Chagrined, despondent, crestfallen, etc.

The lack of the Furious Five negatively affects KFP4 so much, because not only does their absence hurt the atmospheric integrity of KFP as a franchise, it also forces KFP4 to bring in a slew of different characters—all while still noncommittally including the FF at the very end because I believe the marketing team required it—that clog up the cast a bit. It all goes to show how important strong, established side characters are.

The Furious Five are side characters, but the role of "side character" does not equate to being irrelevant, expendable, or exchangeable. I recognize that the Furious Five aren't super developed as characters beyond a handful of lines that allude to traits sprinkled sparingly among the members; however, I believe that the tiny bits of development we have been given have proved impactful in the past. Tigress's development in KFP2 is a prime example of how much narratively conscious changes (however small they may be) can positively affect these movies.

Because of limited runtimes, the Furious Five often operate as more of a singular unit than five individuals. Even so, I don't think discarding them is valid. They're so important to the KFP universe (to Po's universe!) and not having them with him feels so wrong. The Furious Five are fully integral to the heart of Kung Fu Panda, which is why I believe a lot of those who have seen the new movie have expressed something feeling "off" or something being missing.

I agree with this sentiment. To me, KFP4 didn't feel like a KFP movie. I don't need a Furious Five spin-off movie and I can be fully content with a KFP5 centered around Po's journey as an individual as was intended from the beginning, but he can't carry an entire movie on his back. As strong as he is in every sense of the word, he is only one character. He's the centerpiece of the franchise, but a centerpiece can only go so far without the rest of the design, so to speak.

For me, the Furious Five's absence is one of this film's biggest faults. It's huge and glaring. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, either, because the friends with whom I saw the film refused to talk about any other aspect of the movie after seeing it. Seeing them at the end was better than nothing, of course, but it was a disappointing culmination after eight years of waiting.

That all is to say I feel robbed. Despite all of this, though, I understand that there were reasons why the Furious Five weren't included in the movie. I don't believe the production team would exclude the Furious Five unless they weren't given a choice.

Shifu and Po's dynamic continues to be thoroughly delightful but their interactions are short and simplified. I would have loved to see more of them in this film, especially considering the extreme relevance of teacher-student relationships in KFP4. I (somewhat) digress, though, because the idea of Shifu having to live at the Jade Palace with only Po for an extended period of time is hilarious enough on its own. Maybe that's what the short film is about!

The comedy is odd but has some jokes that stand out. Po maintains a healthy relationship with his inner sass, which I think makes him more fun to watch and kind of eradicates the man-child verdict. Some jokes don't land, of course, but I genuinely thought KFP4 had some funny moments. Mr. Ping was consistently awesome and Po had some good lines sprinkled throughout the film.

As for Mr. Ping, he and Li Shan are the subjects of the film's B-plot as they follow Po to Juniper City out of shared concern for their son's safety. In my mind, they don't add anything to the story that couldn't have been brought about by other characters, but they had their moments of being entertaining. I enjoyed their silliness and thought they had a cute dynamic if nothing else.

Speaking of other characters, I want to discuss KFP4's deuteragonist and why I genuinely feel bad about the way her character was treated.

I want to let it be known that I'm still not on board with Po passing the Dragon Warrior torch to another character. While I agree that his arc is now calling for him to have a student, I disagree with the notion of him retiring from his DW role.

As I stated in my first discussion post:

Didn’t the initial significance and nuance of the title come from the fact that there is only one person who can be the Dragon Warrior, because the concept of the “Dragon Warrior” isn’t so much a title as it is Po himself? The universe (Oogway) must choose the Dragon Warrior because they are a singular being of legend. It is one person, and that person is Po. Wasn’t the point of the first film that the title ultimately doesn’t really matter because there is no “secret ingredient,” so to speak? The title doesn’t actually give Po anything. “It’s just you,” Po says, and that was the resolution.

When it comes to Zhen as a character, contrary to what I predicted I would think of her, I thought she was okay. While I was still a bit distracted by how out-of-place her design looks, I wasn't truly annoyed by her at any point and she and Po had some cute moments. Even so, I think their relationship could have been a bit more refined and developed.

While it's evident that Po and Zhen are meant to have a teacher-student/mentor-apprentice dynamic, I think their relationship feels half-baked. There were parallels that contradicted one another and ended up being confusing come the film's conclusion, and the nature of their relationship seems to vacillate depending on the scene. Additionally, the strength of their bond goes from zero to one hundred within thirty-ish minutes and left me with a bit of whiplash.

We're shown that Po and Zhen care about one another, but we're never shown why. They have a brief conversation during which they bond over being orphans, and Zhen says at one point, "You're actually a good guy," but that's it. This obvious lack of development is a bit disorienting because we're later led to believe that Zhen and Po care very deeply for one another when there's almost nothing to back it up.

A scene that sticks out to me when discussing this is when Zhen attack-hugs Po in a way that explicitly mirrors Tigress's hug from KFP2. This happens around the beginning of the third act, and while it had the potential to be an endearing moment, I think it fell flat.

The impact of Tigress's hug was brought on by her character's hardcore nature and reputation of being heartless, further strengthened with the knowledge that she was hugging Po (which was obviously way outside her comfort zone) as a show of companionship and fundamental understanding. Tigress hugged Po because he needed someone to recognize his strive for closure.

Zhen's hug had little to no impact because she had no reason to do it and it didn't indicate growth. She hugs Po because she's sorry for betraying him and doesn't want him to be killed by the Chameleon, but neither of these things are newly-established via this hug; we have already gathered by now that Zhen regrets betraying Po and doesn't want him to get hurt.

The hug is far from the movie's weakest point, but I think it's unnecessary given the context. I'm big on hugs in movies (an underutilized form of platonic affection, in my opinion), but it didn't fit here. I don't hate it, and I see it as an honest effort to bring emotionality to Po and Zhen's relationship, but it seems arbitrary.

Zhen and Po's relationship has a lot of potential and I'd be open to seeing more of them in the future, but I think some more thoughtful development needs to occur before I can humor it further. Even so, I can see myself featuring Zhen in some future post-KFP4 one-shots—sparingly, of course, because we have a lot of Furious Five content to compensate for.

Overall, they had a cute dynamic and some sweet moments but I'm not attached. I'm on board with Po having a student but I think their relationship needs a lot more development, something that this film unfortunately didn't give them time to either accomplish or earn.

Now, onto the Chameleon!

The concept of the Chameleon's character is admittedly super interesting. She's the deuteragonist's fastidious mother figure who feels that Zhen owes her a debt and as a result holds her to an impossible standard. That dynamic had the potential to be so interesting but I didn't think it was explored at all. There is no indication of Zhen having any internal conflict about fighting the Chameleon, no emotional complexity between them at all; it's disappointing because I think it would've added a bit of earnestness to the film.

Additionally, the idea of a shape-shifting villain is versatile. A shape-shifting villain gives those telling the story a lot of room to experiment with the protagonist and different ways in which the main character can be challenged and tested. It's yet another good idea utilized poorly. Just one idea: the Chameleon could have disguised herself as one (or several) of Po's family, friends, etc. and brought to fruition a new arc with his character (seeing as he arguably doesn't have one in this film), but she only disguises herself as Zhen very briefly in the movie.

Furthermore, the Chameleon completely relies on the powers of previous villains to pose any sort of threat to the main characters. She summons Po's former nemeses from the Spirit Realm (despite there being little logic in doing so considering Kai's literal evisceration) and takes their kung fu abilities for herself.

An excerpt from my first KFP4 discussion post that I think is relevant to the point I'm trying to make:

I don’t think it would be in the best interest of anyone if the past villains were to come back in any way that’s not a flashback (even then, I’m not sure I’d see the point). In all honesty, I thought that the whole point of the villains was that they died and stayed dead. They were defeated by Po once and for all as a testament to the idea of establishing Po's character growth and journey as a person through the bad things he’s able to overcome. It’d be highly contradictory to the messages of the other films if these villains were to suddenly come back.

While there was an honest effort made to portray the Chameleon as intimidating, I never felt as though any of the characters were endangered by either her or her army of lizard henchman. She's a visually appealing character (aside from her eyes, which I thought more resembled those of a gecko than a chameleon) and I greatly enjoyed Davis's performance, but overall I don't see the Chameleon as a notable villain.

The return of Tai Lung (had he been on his own) had the makings to be an excellent story, especially considering the importance of teacher-student dynamics in KFP4. To see him interacting with Shifu would have been incredible and could have led to further closure on Tai Lung's end (because I think that's kind of what the team was going for anyway), but it didn't happen.

It was nice to see Ian McShane reprise his role, but I wish Tai Lung's characterization had been more reminiscent of the way he was in the first film and more complimentary of his overall character arc. Tai Lung isn't a one-dimensional villain with a singular goal and motivation, and I couldn't help but feel as though the complexity of his character was simplified for the sake of KFP4's narrative.

Tai Lung's presence in KFP4 may be odd, but Shen and Kai's appearances are even more so. Kai, if I remember correctly, was fully obliterated by Po, reduced to literal particles on screen (which is kind of wild now that I think about it). Shen being in the Spirit Realm makes sense all things considered; however, Po and Li had no visible reaction to his presence, which seemed a bit unlikely considering Shen's deeds. This plot hole can likely be attributed to the fact that Shen and Kai's cameos (to my knowledge) were last-minute additions to the movie.

I have to talk about the pacing. I have to. I'm sorry, bear with me.

To me, the film's pacing is erratic and disconcerting. While I can appreciate a quick-moving narrative that doesn't dawdle on storylines that aren't interesting/important, KFP4 kind of flings itself too far in the opposite direction and ends up being frighteningly fast-paced. Once the credits began, I felt like I had been holding my breath for the entire movie.

KFP4 is confusing because while the runtime is standard for a KFP movie, it feels incredibly short. At the same time, the film's story moves at a breakneck speed and leaves little time for heart and development. These things culminate into a barreling boulder of a movie that simply doesn't have time to let its characters, story, or audience take a breath.

A fast pace is not inherently negative, but I don't think it worked in the favor of KFP4. The KFP franchise has always been very emotionally grounded (and just very grounded in general), so to see a film in which emotion/heart takes an aggressive backseat in comparison to action and comedy is jarring. While I think it's unreasonable for fans to expect the same emotional integrity as the original films to be present in the current and upcoming ones, I still think there's room for Po to grow and I felt as though the notion of him developing further was brushed aside in this film.

As for Po's growth, I felt it was nearly nonexistent. The previous trilogy wrapped up his character's journey beautifully and I know that KFP4 was bound to struggle with this particular aspect of making another KFP film; however, just because the strongest pillars of Po's character are established doesn't serve as a valid excuse to reverse his development and repeat what he learned in KFP3.

In KFP3, Po learned firsthand that he is capable of spreading wisdom and teaching kung fu. He also learns that he is constantly growing and that change is inevitable; there is always something more to learn.

"If you only do what you can do, you will never be more than you are now."

"I don't want to be anything more, I like who I am!"

In KFP4, Po pushes against this narrative despite fully accepting it in KFP3, actively reversing crucial parts of his character development achieved in the latter. KFP3 was non-ambiguously about learning to cope with change and responsibility, and I can't help but feel like KFP4 is simply copying this message while not adding anything to it.

Additionally, I felt that KFP4's Po generally felt less personal than he has in the past. In every KFP movie up to the franchise's most recent addition, I felt very connected to Po as an audience member. I felt like I was truly seeing the world of KFP through his eyes. I consider this to be one of the franchise's most impressive feats; it's incredibly difficult to build a universe around a character without making the audience feel limited to one perspective and one part of the world.

With KFP4, I felt both limited and disconnected. The world didn't feel as vast and all-encompassing as it has in the past and Po didn't seem fully like himself. This could be me nitpicking (as I'm prone to do), but I can't recall a single moment in the movie in which Po was alone on screen. Scenes like these are crucial for me because I see them as a meet-cute between the character and the audience, a moment for us to cross the bridge into their world in a way that's silent and intuitive. These little bonding moments are absolutely integral to feeling connected to a character.

Po's dream sequence in the first KFP movie is one of the best examples of this. It presents his aspirations, alludes to his way of life up to the point of the movie, and showcases his personality. During Po's dream sequence, the audience is quite literally inside Po's mind; we're there with him, seeing what he sees, subsequently feeling what he feels. Po is a dreamer at heart and makes the audience feel like dreamers, too.

In KFP4, I felt like I little to no point of reference when it comes to how Po was feeling. I didn't feel immersed in him and his world.

I know I've been very "doom and gloom" throughout this post, which is an exhausting mindset for everyone involved. I want to end my critique with something positive because I think some praise is deserved. Let's just say the movie could have been a lot worse, the details of which I'm sure you're all well aware.

The color palette of the movie is beautiful and somewhat reminiscent of the first film. While the animation style of KFP4 is far more simplistic than its predecessors, I was very impressed with its use of shadow and light. Po's many faces were also hysterical, props to those who helped make him as expressive as he is.

Additionally, the movie's action sequences were clearly thought out and discussed in great detail. The experimentation with camera angles was really fun to watch and I enjoyed the majority of the film's fight scenes. They were fun, bouncy, and entertaining, and quite likely reinstated audiences's love of watching a cuddly panda kick butt.

Congratulations, you've reached the end! Thank you so much to all of you who took the time to read this unnecessarily long and detailed review. As long as I help someone translate their conflicted feelings into coherent thoughts, I'll call it a win.

I want to reiterate that I don't hate Kung Fu Panda 4 and I had fun while watching the film. It has its flaws and there are a lot of aspects that I dislike, but the effort of the crew is obvious and I greatly admire and respect the hard work put into the film by those who worked on it. This does not at all excuse my issues with the movie, but it's worth saying.

As for the future of the series, I only hope that the next installment is more considerate of the franchise's origins and why Po's story is being told in the first place. I fully believe that another sequel could be good given a strong, passionate crew with a great understanding of the characters and world (and I wouldn't be averse to some previous directors returning, just to put it out there).

Thanks again to those who took the time to read this crazy excuse for a movie review. Feel free to either disagree with me or add things in the replies/reblogs, I'm always looking for more thoughts to think.

Until next time!

#kung fu panda 4 #kung fu panda #dreamworks animation #kfp #kfp 4 #movie review #i'll add the actual picture of the furious five's cameo when i can get ahold of one of decent quality #my time has come #it wasn't THAT bad #i didn't love it #but it is what it is #it's a tentative 6/10 all things considered #free the five #perhaps i treated kfp3 too harshly #don't get me wrong the movie had good qualities and i can tell a lot of work went into it #a lot of missed potential imo #a lot of characters done dirty #i didn't even mention the score but i thought it was just okay #i wasn't wowed #i know close to nothing about composing though so i should probably just not even go there #credits were the best part both cinematically and musically #i feel mean but i'm not going to be dishonest #bc obviously you all simply must know how i feel about the silly panda movie #a more detailed version of the grievances i have w the dragon warrior plot can be found in my og discussion post if anyone's interested #as well as my thoughts on bringing back old villains #might make some edits to this in the future but this is all i have to say for now

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ride-a-dromedary · 4 months

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If the implication in the old journal entry is accurate, and Halsin ended up having to be the one to destroy the shade of his former First Druid that he trained/was taught under, do you think he had time to mourn him? Do you think he fell to his knees in the rubble, feeling the shadows press heavy around him, catatonic, as the weight of realization finally started to hit him? Were any of them reflected back at him when he peered into the dull, sparking energy left behind? Did he let himself cry? Scream? Did he carefully stone his expression and nod tightly in approval, like neatly tying a package, since what he eliminated wasn't him - what was left was so twisted beyond recognition, such a dark reflection of the man he had come to see as second family, that it was better destroyed?

Or did he have to run? Did he shove his grief deep down in the place where it always goes to make room for his survival instinct to bring him into the sun again? Did he have to unceremoniously abandon what was left of him because there was still a chance there may be others - a hope made in vain that the ones they had to leave behind were still out there - praying as he went that he had found peace, that Silvanus recognized his face, before the curse took what was left?

#BG3 Musing #Halsin #Halsin Posting #you think halsin watched astarion fall to his knees and sob #and karlach scream at her hurt #or laezel's jaw set as her world and everything she knew came crumbling down around her #and just...felt his fingers twitch in empathy?#do you think when the emerald enclave responded to his request for aid by putting him in charge he realized that eventually #everything abandons him when he needs it most?#i sure do #idk man the idea that halsin possibly had to put down a man he obviously admired #and had to come to the realization the even those who seem infallible and mighty can fall in a heart beat #that for some reason you survived when those who *should have* did not #that your name got hailed among harpers as one of a hero when all you want to do #is curl up on yourself and tell yourself that you are nothing but what is left #that...gets to me a bit #angst on crimis

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riddlerosehearts · 5 months

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i am so tired of seeing this screenshot about wish's ending reposted everywhere and used to make fun of the movie:

and this is coming from someone who didn't even like the movie very much, but this is misrepresenting what happened. yes, there is a thing where asha wears a cloak resembling that of the fairy godmother and at the end star makes her a magic wand and the kids say she's like a fairy godmother, king magnifico does get trapped in a mirror, etc, and the movie was absolutely filled with easter eggs and references to previous movies--yep, when i saw the movie i did in fact take these scenes as just easter eggs! after all, think about this logically, if all currently existing movies in the disney animated canon were meant to take place in the same universe, and asha canonically grows up to be cinderella's fairy godmother, then...

how can you explain such a drastic difference in appearance? how can you justify asha, a brown-skinned afro-hispanic girl with a face full of freckles and long brown hair, and this old white woman being the same person? you can't, because they're not!!!! if i recall correctly asha doesn't even wear that cloak at the end when they're calling her a fairy godmother, she just wears it during one scene when she's a fugitive and has to sneak around. also...

the creators of the movie have directly confirmed that they were not trying to set up a disney multiverse and that it's not meant to be taken that seriously. rapunzel and eugene's cameo in frozen also wasn't meant to be taken anywhere near as seriously as everyone took it. neither were any previous cameos like belle in hunchback of notre dame or aurora in oliver and company (and if aurora being in oliver and company was canon, she'd be over 600 years old!). and, back to wish specifically, the little easter egg earlier in the movie where magnifico sees a wish bubble from someone who wants the perfect nanny to take care of their kids and says he's "poppin' that one" also doesn't mean the banks family from mary poppins canonically lives in rosas. the scene at the end where a boy named peter who wears all green and dreams of creating a flying machine goes to work with a girl in a blue nightgown whose wish is to fly doesn't mean peter pan and wendy actually somehow lived together in rosas and knew each other before the movie peter pan ever happened. it is literally impossible for all of these movies to take place in the same time period and universe, so it's a good thing that they, uh, don't, and were never intended to. please, if you don't like the movie, that's perfectly fine, but don't say disney is trying to create some convoluted multiverse and "MCU-ify" their movies when that just literally isn't true.

#disney #wish #disney wish #ughhhh #wish 2023 #nobody is even going to see this post or care but whatever. i am Tired.#one person i explained this to said even they KNEW it was all just easter eggs but they hated the movie and wanted to shit on it #and like??? what is the point??? if you hate it that bad then make fun of it for something that's actually true at least 😭😭#to be completely honest i feel like the fact that there is zero logical way for asha to be THE fairy godmother #should've tipped people off if nothing else!?!?!?#you can even tell that the cloaks aren't the exact same--asha's doesn't have sleeves and has purple inside the hood #anyway i'm so glad princess aurora really was literally there in the 1980s in oliver and company #even though she was born in the 1300s #we stan disney's first immortal vampire queen <3

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lesbian-in-leather · 3 months

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Let's Talk About Alastor

Hazbin Hotel is rotting my brain so it's time for me to ramble about it to no one in particular!! Obviously this post will contain a whole multitude of spoilers, so please don't look under the cut unless you're fine with that/have seen the full season

As I mentioned in the tags of this post, I have SO MANY THOUGHTS about our beloved Radio Demon, especially in regards to the finale and how I think his plot could go next series, so buckle up folks, this'll be a long one

First off, let's talk about the way he fights. When he's fighting anyone, Alastor is big, and showy, and fucking deadly. We see it time and time again—he has fun when he fights, he enjoys the carnage and, most importantly, the terror he elicits from his foes. And that's why he was tasked with dealing with Adam—he's insanely powerful, and if anyone can take down the head of the exorcists, it would have to be Alastor (because obviously they didn't know Lucifer would show up to help, and Charlie hasn't fully come into her power yet, but that's another post). And he knows it! He knows he's powerful, he knows he's deadly, he knows everyone is shit-scared of him, and that's what he relies on.

And then the finale happens. He's in that final battle, and he's actually put to the test. And in terms of sheer power, for once in his afterlife he isn't the strongest in the room. He's actually outmatched, or at least on an even footing. And if he'd fought like everyone else, then maybe he would have succeeded—if he'd taken Carmilla's advice, I have no doubt that he would have won, or at least held Adam off for long enough that the others could have come and helped him. But he never stood a chance. Because he fights like an angel, and that's why he loses to one. Look at Carmilla's conversation with Vaggie:

"You leave yourself open with every swing; you fight like someone unafraid of harm" "Angels wield no shield, little armour, and fight with reckless abandon"

Remind you of anyone? Rewatch Alastor's fight with Adam—he's fighting just like he always does. He has multiple opportunities to take him out, but, like always, he chooses to play with his food. He's enjoying himself, he's riling Adam up, dancing around him, taunting him. Because at no point does he consider that he could lose this fight—he has no armour, no shield, he didn't even bring an angelic weapon! He just has his trusty radio mic (the source of his power? Perhaps... but that's a discussion for another post) that Adam breaks. And the genuine fear in his eyes, in his voice when that happens? He has no idea what to do. He never even considered this could happen. Everyone else is fighting for their lives, but he was treating this war like simple sport... until suddenly he couldn't.

And speaking of motivation, once again we can look to Carmilla's song to see why he loses when the other, objectively less powerful souls (Husk, Angel, Cherri, hell, even Nifty) succeeded. Yes, they weren't against Adam, but they were still fighting exorcists—you know, the same angels that have been decimating hell's population unchallenged for literal centuries. But they didn't die. Because they were fighting for what they truly believed in, because they had a real reason to not only fight, but to live. I saw it mentioned in this post earlier, and they make such a good point! Charlie's fighting for her dream and for her people; Vaggie's fighting for Charlie; Lucifer for his daughter; Angel, Husk, Pentious and Cherri are all fighting for their friends (something Charlie gave them, btw, but again, that's a different post). But what's Alastor fighting for? Power? Fun? To prove a goddamn point? I think he loses because even he doesn't really know why he's fighting. I mean, listen to Out For Love and tell me it doesn't apply to Alastor just as much as Vaggie:

"I see you're driven by your detestation Your every step is stoked with animus You need a different type of motivation Or there's no way that you can handle this I know you're thirstin' for vengeance, Vaggie You're out for blood But you'll only stand a chance if you're out for love"

Which would bring me onto where I think his plot will go in future seasons (should we get them), but first we need to clear a couple of things up and try to understand his character as best we can. Now here's the thing, I know a lot of people are divided on the topic of Alastor's feelings. Some people say he genuinely cares about the others, while some say he's just putting up a façade and playing the game, and that all of the supposed evidence of his feelings are actually manufactured manipulations. But I think both readings are true, and also, neither of them are.

Because I think Alastor does care about the others, to an extent. But I also think he refuses to acknowledge it, to recognise that part of himself, that he's buried those feelings so deep he doesn't even know that they can exist within him anymore. I think whoever holds his leash (Lilith? The seven year gap is a little too convenient to ignore, but at the same time, now that we know where she is, what's her motivation? Anyway, another post) pushed him towards the hotel for their own purposes, but I also don't think they're particularly checking up on him. I think his mission is to do with Charlie, but I also think he's grown genuinely attached to her over the months they've known each other. Why do I think this? I'm glad you asked!

First off, let's examine his reactions in various key moments throughout the series so far:

This first shot is the most annoyed we see him for the entirety of the song Should Have Stayed Gone, despite singing with one of his (many?) self-proclaimed rivals, Vox. Now yes, he does look moderately peeved, but I would argue that it's much less to do with Vox, and much more to do with the focus on television and his constant fear of irrelevancy (more on that later in this post). Then look at his expressions later—

Now he's enjoying himself, he has that ever-present shit-eating grin we all know and love. And, most crucially, no one else can see his expressions during this song. No one's looking at him in the first pic, and for the rest of the song he's in his radio booth, so it's safe to assume that his expressions are far less guarded than when he knows he's being observed. Why is that important? Well, let's take a look at another Alastor-heavy episode, shall we? That's right, no Alastor analysis would be complete without a delve into Dead Beat Dad, so here we go!

Right off the bat, we're shown his dislike of Lucifer. I know some people say it was all for show, but I disagree. Hear me out—Alastor's smart, no one's arguing otherwise, so why make an enemy of the literal devil just for sport? Now, let me be clear—I don't think he actually sees Charlie as a daughter-figure (at least, not consciously, and certainly not as strongly as he was making out). The thing is, he is good at reading people, and all it took was one look at Lucifer can't-wait-to-break-the-door-down Morningstar for him to realise that Charlie's affection was what mattered the most to him. However, his hatred of Lucifer was not all for show. So why did he hate him? The fact that he hadn't heard of him certainly won't have helped (again, Alastor definitely has a whole complex, we'll get to that), but his loathing started before Lucifer had even spoken to him. How do I know? Take a look at the moment when Lucifer has literally just opened the door

Look at that eye twitch. No one's looking at him. No one can see it. But the sheer, unbridled rage is so evident that he can't quite keep it from his face. And all Lucifer has done is hug his daughter. Now, assuming the two have never interacted before (Lucifer certainly doesn't seem to remember him, and Alastor doesn't act as though they've met) what reason does Alastor have to hate him? If Lilith is his master, perhaps it's on her behalf? But he doesn't seem particularly loyal to whoever holds his leash, far from it, so that leaves us with the two most logical options: either Lucifer is the one holding his leash (not impossible, but I wouldn't say it has much evidence thus far), or Alastor is genuinely opposed to him because of how he's treated Charlie. Because he does care about her, however little he'll admit it to himself.

Just to really hammer this point home, I'd like to show just some of the many other instances of Alastor being genuinely furious with Lucifer over the course of this episode—in fact, seeing as we've already talked about Should Have Stayed Gone, let's constrain ourselves to Hell's Greatest Dad for now, shall we?

All Lucifer has to do is laugh at the start of this song, and just look at Alastor's face! That's anger, or at the very least intense annoyance—with ever-smiling-Alastor, the proof is always in the eyebrows. Then we get this wonderful sequence of expressions while Lucifer begins insulting him:

Oh, and just in case you need a comparison, here's a shot of Lucifer insulting Alastor side-by-side with two different instance of Vox insulting Alastor. And some people still think Vox is his rival and he was just messing with Lucifer?

Now you may say, "Ah, but that's not a fair comparison! Alastor was clearly winning his argument with Vox, whereas he and Lucifer were on a much more even footing!" to which I would reply yes! Exactly! That's why Vox isn't anywhere close to being Alastor's rival, and also at least part of the reason Alastor cared so much when fighting with Lucifer. If winning against Lucifer was as easy as Vox, of course he'd pick that fight. But it wasn't. At the start of Hell's Greatest Dad, he's getting straight up humiliated (as those four waiter-esque pics demonstrate). And yet, he keeps fighting. Partially for pride, I'm sure, but some part of him absolutely cares about the argument he's making.

How do I know that? Well, you see, first of all we take a look at how Alastor acts when he first starts singing. As we all know, Alastor's power lies in his voice—his face was made for radio—and he's (almost) always so much more in control when he's talking, and always in control if his radio filter is in place. In fact, the stronger it is, the more he appears to be taking charge. So, when he first begins to fight back against Lucifer, he immediately puts that Cheshire-Cat-esque façade back into place, quite literally dancing around Lucifer as he does so:

And yet, his energy is so much higher than normal. He's leaping around, his usually calculated movements suddenly far more erratic and energetic than we've seen him. For example, in his first verse alone, he goes though all of this:

Not only is he using far more power, he's become so showy, his expressions are so much more unhinged than even he usually is, his pupils are near-constantly slitted, and, most importantly, take a look at his colour palette. Right at the very start it's still his classic red and black, but then—without Lucifer even interrupting—he gets so invested in convincing Charlie (and, by extension, proving himself better than Lucifer) that he switches to what I have dubbed his Powerful Palette. It only ever happens when he's demonstrating his full abilities; when he's angry at Husk, when he's fighting Adam, when he makes a new deal, and... now. Arguing with Lucifer over who's a better father to Charlie. And while usually it's in brief flashes before he returns to normal, here he stays consistently in his greens and pinks, for a good majority of the song. You don't think that means he really cares, even just a little bit?

And when Lucifer has the gall to interrupt him with his golden fiddle, and just look at Alastor then;

Look at his face, look at his posture. Alastor, notorious for waving his arms around in grand, swooping gestures, is standing there, gritting his fucking teeth, fists clenched, arms folded at what must be an uncomfortable angle. The only time he moves is to concede a tiny step so he can drop a fucking piano on the literal devil.

Now this bit is so interesting, because he, very briefly, seems to believe that he's won, or is at least winning. And even then, he doesn't relax, he doesn't return to his normal colour palette or even his normal expression. He's still furious, you can see it—with Vox, it was a game. This is personal, and then when Lucifer is actually not only fine but still fighting, now playing a new instrument, (literally playing the devil's chord) to deliberately ruin Alastor's melody? Oh that's pure rage.

This first expression is his immediate reaction to it and, perhaps even better, the other two are him trying to contain it. Because he knows he can be seen, but he physically can't look any more collected than that; he can't control his expressions during this song. If he could, he would, because it would irritate Lucifer all the more, and he's more than smart enough to realise that. But neither of them can control themselves here, because both of them really, genuinely, care.

Then he physically places himself in between Charlie and her father, not only pushing him out of the way, but then going so far as to physically drop him out of frame with a gesture reminiscent of a Roman Emperor as he reinstates his claim over Charlie—again, feeding into his need to be relevant and powerful (we're getting to that part, I promise). But isn't it interesting that this time, he didn't even use his power? He pushed Lucifer with his bare hands, not bothering with the intimidating shadows or powerplays, because for once it wasn't about that. For once he wasn't focusing on the person he was fighting, but on the person he was fighting for.

Now this exchange is so interesting. Because Alastor misses a really good opportunity to get Charlie on his side, and I think he misses it purely because he (almost certainly without realising it) gets actually, genuinely offended on behalf of his friends. Because when Lucifer calls the others losers, he's insulting Charlie's family. Knowingly and callously! Right in front of them! And if Alastor was in his right mind, he would have absolutely pointed it out with a fake gasp and a shit-eating grin. But look at the way he reacts to Lucifer's interruption—the narrowed eyes, the tensing of his shoulders, the flexed wrists and clenched hands. That's genuine anger; it's too immediate and out of character to be anything else. Because he didn't intentionally goad Lucifer into saying that. And instead of taking advantage of the opportunity, he responds by, very childishly, asking Lucifer to "butt out" of his song. Because they were Charlie's family first, and he may feign indifference, but he included himself among them for a goddamn reason, and how dare Lucifer insult them like that?

And again, compare how he's moving and standing to how he was in Should Have Stayed Gone. In this gif (and Hell's Greatest Dad as a whole, but let's focus on this bit right now) he's glaring, his shoulders are hunched—he tries for his usual nonchalance by pushing Lucifer out of frame with a swing of his hips, but then is immediately betrayed by his expression, and his reaction the second Lucifer comes back at him. Meanwhile, in Should Have Stayed Gone, this is how he acts while taunting Vox:

He's so much more relaxed, he's visibly having fun, and Vox is the one bending himself out of shape to try and get Alastor's attention win the argument. Another interesting parallel between him and Vox in these numbers is when Vox is clearly losing towards the end of his part in Should Have Stayed Gone, compared to Alastor's first verse in Hell's Greatest Dad.

I mean, these frames are just a little too similar, don't you think? Both of them desperately trying to grab the attention of the subject of the song, duplicating themselves and leaning over the borders to try and be noticed... oh Alastor.

And now, finally, we get onto the bit that I've been promising for this entire post: Alastor's inferiority complex. The thing is, I think I've worked him out (at least, to an extent). We've seen time and again that he hates the idea of being irrelevant—the fact he doesn't like any technology beyond radio (leading to the real reason for his annoyance in that very first picture I used, when he sees everyone gathered around Vox's screens); his reaction when Carmine said she had not in fact, been wondering where he was; his reaction when Lucifer says he's never heard of him; the way he rushes to "remind people why he's here" at the end of Dead Beat Dad, and the fact that when he first arrived he took out all of the overlords who dared to dismiss his power, just to name a few. His fatal flaw is clearly pride—he wants people to know him, he needs to be relevant or he doesn't know who he is.

And I think that's the real reason he hates Lucifer. Because, father-figure or not, the two of them do represent the same position in Charlie's life. But why would she need help from a human soul (albeit an insanely powerful one) when she has a literal angel around to do whatever she wants? Yes, Alastor is powerful, but if Lucifer is back in the picture... well, we all saw it in the finale. Alastor was quite literally fighting for his life, and barely escaped with it, while Lucifer was dancing circles around Adam, shapeshifting, taunting, joking, and all the while he was periodically rescuing Charlie too. His attention wasn't even entirely focused on the battle, and he wasn't even really trying to hurt Adam until the end when shit got personal.

And I also think that's why Alastor got so scared. Because he almost died. As I said right at the start, he fought like an angel. He didn't even consider getting hurt as an option. And now he's having a crisi of mortality, and being powerful and scared is a dangerous combination. So where will his story go from here?

Well, from the fact that he's still at the hotel, I think that's evidence enough that he's being forced to stay with Charlie—despite all the very real evidence we have that he does genuinely care about her (I mean, they way he talks about shaping her to Rosie? The gentle looks, the fact he loaned her his mic? Don't forget how he looked when that got broken, it's clearly so important to him, and he gave it to her twice. Not to mention the whole 'wanting to be relevant in her life' thing that I've been going on about for like, half of this post. Remember what Rosie said about words being easy, but actions are hard? Yeah, he says he doesn't care, but... anyway). So, he's being forced to stay while he looks for an out in his contract with someone. But where does that leave him in the wider story? Well, I do think he'll eventually turn on Charlie and the rest of the gang, but I also think that it'll be temporary. Assuming the crew gets as many seasons as they want to tell the full story (never a guarantee, but here's to hoping) then I think he'll probably stay for a while next season but work against them behind the scenes, then make an open move against them, then be gone for a while, then start his long and arduous journey back into everyone's good graces.

Obviously his deal with Charlie will come into play, and I think he'll probably use it as leverage to get out of his deal. "I'll make Charlie do what you want—without hurting her, or making her hurt anyone else—and I get to be free from this bullshit" kinda thing. I also think it'll be very interesting when that happens, because I have a theory on what he meant by the deal having "clipped his wings"—I don't think he can take anyone's soul anymore. Think about it; we've only seen him even attempt two deals this season, and not even once has he attempted to add a soul to his supposedly ever-growing collection. It would certainly clip an overlord's wings to not be able to amass any more underlings—especially since it seems that the more souls someone owns, the more powerful they are, not just in terms of owning other people, but in actual, tangible power. So I think he'll eventually get out of his deal, and then he'll be free and he'll go utterly off the rails... for a while. But it won't be as fun anymore. Husk and Nifty will have been forced to turn against their friends, and Alastor won't care what they think, because why would he?

Except suddenly he does. Husk's silences suddenly feel a lot more pointed, and Nifty refuses to even look at him, and suddenly he feels something he hasn't felt in a very long time, or perhaps he's never felt it at all. He feels guilt. Regret. He wants friends again, because they were loud and annoying and they didn't respect him but... he'll realise that his affection for them wasn't all for show, not even by half. Because he almost died for them. And even when he's talking about it, scoffing at his own perceived weakness... he calls them his friends.

And that's when the real fun will begin, because the Radio Demon On A Mission will be a force to behold, and god help anyone who gets in his way, because once he figures out the love he's fighting for... oh, he'll be unstoppable.

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chirpsythismorning · 1 year

Text

Why I Don’t Experience Byler Doubt

It’s simple. One of the most essential techniques in storytelling: Show, don’t tell.

Show, don't tell is a technique that allows the audience to experience the story through actions, words, subtext, thoughts, senses, and feelings rather than exclusively through the creators' exposition, summarization, and description.

Even more importantly (assuming we want to enjoy ourselves bc this is supposed to be high quality entertainment), it adds drama. Rather than telling viewers what's happening, a filmmaker will use this technique to show drama unfold. 'Telling' is factual and avoids detail; while 'showing,' is detailed and places the human subject at the centre of the drama.

This technique is literally playing out in the narrative when it comes to Mike’s inability to tell El he loves her (or even simply write love Mike in his letters), which he never would have had to tell her (spell out) in the first place, if he had just shown her that he loved her.

It’s no fun having to spoon feed your audience. Instead, it's much more enjoyable for the storyteller to present the truth in the details, even sometimes contradicting very basic assumptions that are being outright told. Hence why, for example, when the Duffers were asked about the Vecna reveal, Ross used the opportunity to go on a mini tangent: 'the best twists are ones that you go, “Oh, I should have seen that coming.” As opposed to the twists that go, “Oh, well that just came out of nowhere.” So, “Oh, I missed these clues along the way.” But you get nervous when you’re writing it because you go, “Well, to me it seems obvious--'.

In fact, Show, don't tell is what largely allows surprise revelations to hide in plain sight. Because obviously, if a writer just tells their audience everything that's happening while it's happening, we would always see what's coming next.

And so the problem I have with downplaying or even completely refusing to acknowledge the importance of Show, don't tell, in the case of Stranger Things especially, is that, in order to comfortably subscribe to what is being told, I have to ignore what is being shown.

We see this play out all the time on Reddit in particular, which if I'm being honest is the only platform at this point that treats mere speculation about Will and Mike's relationship as if it is the end of the world. On the rare occasion the mods don't remove a byler related post, the post is either already negative towards byler or the comments are filled with fury over the poster simply thinking critically by speculating about byler. Even if you manage to get a fan over there in the comments to consider certain evidence pointing towards byler as incriminating, they'll still manage to end it by downplaying the Duffers and their abilities, because 'They're not that smart!'...

They'll ask for evidence, be presented with it, only to insist that it's all reaching because details mean nothing and everything about the show is actually just surface level, ie. it's not that deep.

Without even realizing it, they're low-key admitting that going the byler route would be smart, and yet here they are tirelessly defending a show that, according to them, has shit writers and no deeper purpose. All this does is prove that they are hoping this is the case. Because even despite being presented with strong evidence that the show might very well be epic, they would rather reject it altogether.

They would rather have one of their favorite shows suck and defend it religiously, then consider the possibility that it's good and gay...

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely fans on reddit that don't hate byler. I imagine out of the million in that sub, there's a silent majority that would be open to it. Keep in mind, most fans still active at this point in hiatus are hardcore fans, and so they're obviously opinionated, that goes for everyone on most platforms rn. And yet, I know there are very likely casual fans who are popping in there every now and then, the same people in the majority when after s4 dropped, saw that monologue and said What the actual fuck was that?

There’s a reason no other couple on the show has needed to hear the words I love you to believe it. Well, besides Steve and Nancy…

Because SHOW, DON'T TELL. That's why!

So, what do I mean when I say that Show, don't tell is why I no longer have byler doubt?

It's actually pretty ironic, but basically the moment Mike told El he loved her, that's the moment they showed us that he didn't.

I mean, for starters, how does one go about filming a romantic love confession? Because if we're being entirely serious right now, they made just about every artistic and creative choice possible to go against what a romantic love confession should look like to feel satisfying.

I mean, you'd probably want the atmosphere to be intimate, right? Make the audience feel like these two are the only two people in the room (world) for this moment?

Well, that's not the case for Mike and El, nor is it the case for literally any of their scenes in s4 (arguably a lot of their scenes in the series; Will the wise drawing in El's room, I'm looking at you). Almost all of the scenes with them together in s4 had Will in the background, often times in the literal frame between them. That is NOT how you film scenes for a romantic pairing that you want the audience to root for, from beginning to end.

You guys gotta understand, rewatch value is one of the most important aspects to this story for the Duffers. When talking about the prospects of s5, they mentioned that they rewatched all the Lord of the Rings, saying how important it was, despite what some fans might say about the ending being too long, or this or that, bc to them, it was necessary to watch it all, and to rewatch it and rewatch it, in order to appreciate the entire story as a whole, aka the way it was intended.

If you're a serious about Mike and El as a romantic pairing, but because of the way the show has set up their relationship over the seasons, you can't sit down and enjoy more than a quarter of each season bc they're either separated, broken up, or on the rare occasion they are together and happy, they're accompanied by a kicked puppy in every shot, maybe all of that's for a reason.

And that applies to the scene in Surfer Boy more than any other scene in the show, a scene that is supposed to be Mike's monologue to El... You mean a scene that directly parallels Mike's monologue to Will in s2?

When planning the end of s4, do we think the Duffers just decided they wanted this intimate moment between Mike and El to have Will in the frame behind Mike (visually piggybacking off of him, in an episode titled The Piggyback...) in almost every shot, including when he said I love you for the first time, for no reason at all? Or is it possible there was a reason for it? Just like there's been a greater reason for everything?

Like bro, I'm sorry, but even if what's being told in that scene is relevant, all of it still reads as either a lie, a partial lie, a lie of omission or a platonic truth hiding behind romantic phrasing: I don't know how to live without you = platonic (trauma bond), whereas I can't live without you/I don't want to live without you = romantic. The later is out of desire/want, the former is out of fear of the unknown.

The entire scene the lighting is blinking rapidly. And so the vibe they're going for here is uncertainty, which is quite odd for a love confession that's supposed to feel certain? Then we have El seeing all red the entire time. She's literally choking, hearing Mike struggle to muster up anything that could help her pull through, only to overhear Will calling Mike the heart, followed by Mike finally saying I love you????

And I guess according to the Duffers, nothing says true love like a love confession ending abruptly by a two day time jump...

Oh and how about, instead of them taking the time at the end of the season for El and Mike to have a private moment, where they could finally address their love for one another, let’s have them barely on speaking terms, and the one time they do talk, let’s have it be offscreen and mentioned in a private moment between Will and Mike, who in contrast to Mike and El, we're going to prioritize having a scene with them alone together at the end of this season...

In the last minutes, let’s have El look at Mike and Will, only to avoid them with visible annoyance. And THEN let’s show Mike visibly defeated by El's annoyance, instead prioritizing reassuring Will, aka his friend with whom he shares an I didn’t say it/ You didn’t have to bond...

I mean? Are we just not going to talk about it? The fact that I didn't say it/You didn't have to could pass off as a literal synonym for Show, don't tell...

It just kills me that even with all of that, the Duffers were like, You know what? Fuck it. Let's show them all the endgame couples lined up next to each other, with Will and Mike in the middle and El standing on her own in front of them. If by now they still refuse to consider it, after everything, this ending probably wont convince them anyways, but it makes for great rewatch value...

Seriously, if you're subscribing fully to the belief that what is being told is the whole truth and nothing but the truth (so help you god), then you're having to ignore all of that. And I can't ignore all of that, I just can't. Which makes it impossible for me to experience doubt anymore.

#byler #stranger things #byler doubt #not really #quite the opposite #but i'll tag in case #show don't tell allows you to acknowledge what is being shown AND told bc the truth of what's being told is hiding in the details #that's not the case for people only wanting to believe what's being told bc they're having to completely ignore the details to believe it #like i know for milkvans... byler scenes do NOT work in their favor #whereas for bylers... pretty much all milkvan scenes do work in our favor #and so genuinely i just can't experience doubt anymore #arguing with antis is fun to me #looking at reddit posts is peak entertainment #ppl praying to the gods that ST sucks bc they would rather have that be the case than it be an intricate story with deeper meaning #bc then that would mean all the queer-coding that's been hiding in the details all along was intentional...#there's nothing I can do for ya'll except sit here and watch you unpack that #reddit is going to be quite the spectacle over the next couple years #once byler happens there's probably going to be instant denial #then mourning #then acceptance #or whatever the 4(?) stages of grief are #then they'll eventually get to a point where they will allow themselves to look at the evidence instead of avoiding it out of fear #and that's when it's finally going to hit them #oh my god #it's me #i'm part of the reason they had to water it down #bc even upon being presented with evidence #they rejected it #and now they gotta give credit to tumblr bylers who discovered most of the evidence they've been shitting on for the last few years #honestly i'm looking forward to it

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