VERY RAMBLY BUT I think rose and martha are like the inverse of one another in terms of narrative, in that they both meet a doctor who is deeply deeply hurt, but the doctor interacts with them about it so differently, because of where they're at with that hurt, and the doctor is like "hey, I'm suave and vulnerable beneath the surface, which is quite attractive, want to travel in space and time in my whimsical timeship?" and they both go "oh heck yes!" and then it's like splintered glass from that point on, like martha lives in a funhouse mirror of rose's story -- up until she makes it her own of course and she does call the doctor out on it relatively early on, although rose continues to have that haunting effect
so rose has this bubble created around her that is perfect and unchangeable almost, in which nothing bad can ever happen (except for all the times it does but huuush, we'll be together forever forrealsies don't look at that big ol hurricane hurtling our way), which then inevitably bursts, but is always there-as-memory, because rose becomes something of an impossible ideal to some extent
and martha isn't protected at all, and has all the badness spilling out on her because the doctor is unable to contain any of it (and maybe is relieved to finally give up on being strong), and subsequently all of the promise of wonder has an air of sourness to it, and the doctor will always feel incredibly guilty about how it all ended
but crucially there's a lot they have in common, that is quite different to, say, donna (who is woven in in her own, interesting, way) -- they both become attracted to this powerful, interesting, and suuuper traumatised being, they're both taken along on a journey of promised wonders, they're both incredibly reliable to the point that the narrative is retroactively fitted around how much the doctor's belief-systems revolve around belief in their companions, with many others from the past given their dues (starting with sarah-jane), and they both do see wonders beyond their comprehension (and so does donna, but again, there's something a bit different there to poke at in another post...),
except where for rose this wonder helps her break out of the path that was set down for her and become who she always had the potential to be in a way that is mostly framed as a positive (although with some -- I think -- under-analysed caveats...) and she will be forever thankful for the doctor arriving in her life, martha's is more like an awe that the universe is so hostile and so lonely and so heartbreaking, and so she needs to become more resilient and more ready to make choices that are terrible (from travelling the broken world for a year to the osterhagen key....), and so there's another story about someone who becomes strong and tough (just like rose) but it's because the doctor wasn't really able to be there for her, and while I don't think the show (from memory) ever has her totally regretting the doctor dropping into her life, there for sure is some solemnity to how her story ends, a bit of a dampener in comparison (even tbh in comparison to donna, who yeah, gets her memory taken, but is suggested -- now confirmed perhaps? -- to get more of her life in order/feel more self-confident, also partially because of that subliminal influence of her time with the doctor)
and this isn't to say that it's all-bad for martha! her working for UNIT and Torchwood has a lot of very interesting facets to it, and she is fulfilling her potential to be this impressive, capable person, but the ways all of this was built up to is so heartrending
rose coming in and "saving" the doctor, except it was a bit of a lie, because the second she wasn't there they crashed even harder than before, and martha coming in with the idea that she could save the doctor and walking away when realising what it was doing to her life, and both rose and martha irrevocably changed to the point that the person pre-doctor is barely recognisable in them anymore, both take on the doctor's self-sacrificial traits...
and also the idea that rose gets the fantasy, but it's the fantasy a-bit-to-the-left (funhouse again) because there's always something a bit disconcerting about the lengths the doctor goes to to maintain the bubble, to the point of offering up the alternate-him/tentoo so that she can still have it, even though the actual physical doctor that shared it with her isn't actually there! and martha gets the glimpse of the fantasy, and then has to come to terms with the fact that she's not the person it's "for" and reassess her relationship to the idea of a fantasy in the first place (it helps that martha is an incredibly practical, pragmatic person, but it's still so... ouch)
I don't think it was intentional, but this also fascinating from the perspective of rose as a white woman and martha as a black woman -- who is the fantasy for, to the extent that strange and universe-breaking events go into maintaining it, and who has to be practical and pragmatic and self-reliant?
and also, it's got more tragedy in both cases -- rose as a spectre/haunter of the narrative is always a little bit intangible when she's looked back on (even though in the story she's in she's incredibly real and well-rounded, every time I go back to s1 I am struck by how grounded she is in reality), and I think that's something interesting in terms of her mother's warning in s2, how if she travels with the doctor "forever" she'll become something else, something not her
and martha's mother warns her as well, although she's not completely sure of what, and in contrast to rose this warning comes into very painful fruition, harming her entire family (except, maybe her brother? I wonder if there's anything written about that), but where rose is so omnipresent, martha tries several times to take herself out
(also something about both of their mothers being their anchor-points)
there's something there that's at the centre of both rose's and martha's arcs:
is the change they're going through because of the doctor... good? good for them? good for their families? good as in they're becoming better people than before? good for the world they inhabit? is it good for the person they used to be? did they become better than that person? can they ever truly deal with or even begin to comprehend how these events made them who they are? can they even connect who they are now to who they were then? was this good?
they both become these larger-than-life people, somewhat without noticing on both parts (but the narrative does notice), one of them a ghost, and the other a soldier -- one of them an increasingly intangible, ever-present idea, and the other someone who has to fight every step of the way
it's just a bunch of things I've had going through my head that I can't quite formulate in coherent essay-like sentences, but for sure it's there
opposite sides of the coin, rose tyler and martha jones
I do wish they'd had space in the story for them to talk
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𝐂𝐋𝐗𝐈𝐈𝐈. Today I woke up earlier than usual and chose violence upon seeing yet another couple of details missed in translation that make me salty, specially because they're related with Travail and, once again, with the subtlety play Dain is known for in many miscellanies.
So apparently, the first detail that I read up is that the use of thrones or divine thrones of Celestia doesn't necessarily allude to a throne of power, given that gods in Teyvat are pretty much rulers. But instead, it's more so related with the concept of "throne of destiny" given that the Chinese term used for both thrones and constellations are one and the same. This could give some room for speculation and wonder if, when there is mention in Before Sun and Moon that the second throne came and warred against the Primordial One and 3/4 shades, a new vision of the future was also brought. Which, for better or for worse, could fall in place with Phanes' concerns about the rise of delusions and more that comes with Forbidden Knowledge. But knowing what's happening and the premise that at least to some extent he's responsible for the mess we're witnessing by the hands of the gods: even though the Second Who Came brought Forbidden Knowledge, in terms of raw knowledge is it actually negative or positive? And my reasoning to wonder this is that the Abyss is known for delivering knowledge and it's also known that the Abyss acts like some kind of gateway to influences outside Teyvat, and the potential that some of these tried to enter or are even aware of what's happening but their way to Teyvat is blocked. It would make further sense if we think that its skies are fake as yet another layer of "protection" from the outside.
And now what concerns Dain, he's always tied with destiny in some shape or form. Starting from the fact that he was searching his own destiny when he lost everything with Khaenri'ah's destruction, to his title as the confluence between the past and the future (future isn't exactly a 1:1 of destiny, but they are related), the fact that he has something to do with reweaving all threads of destiny and rejecting this world, which to my interpretation what he's rebelling against is the fate / Heavenly Principles as he keeps saying time and time again that he's an advocate that everyone is masters of their own destiny, as in saying that it's not being the case as things currently stand. To wrap this point up, it's curious that the Heavenly Principles (sometimes interchangeable with destiny / fate) started with Phanes and that, if the Second Who Came is meant to represent a new destiny, the Heavenly Principles continue to predominate.
◜That (divine) throne (of destiny) in the high heavens was never a seat reserved for you from the start.◞
Reading this brings something new in question: what isn't reserved for someone is that they can't achieve godhood despite that's what it's said to be the case (perhaps godhood but with a shit ton of small letters that no one reads) or that it is their destiny that they aren't allowed to choose? We have a "Loom of Fate" operation undergoing, and a new interpretation of Lumine's quote of "I won't rest until the Abyss has engulfed the thrones" is added if we re-shape the quote as "I won't rest until the Abyss has engulfed the constellations".
◜But oh, you who oversteps your bounds, do not stop walking here. For none can watch the fire burn from the other side of the river. Watch...◞
This here is what makes me salty the most, and it's because apparently the Chinese wording of "overstep" can also mean "to usurp". While for now I don't have anything major to say about this, it's the subtlety play that I talked about earlier that makes me raise an eyebrow because in the past (recent and distant) Dain proved to have a way with his words that at first glance and given the timing, it's hard to pay attention to as something relevant but once more information comes that is related to that, it makes you realize that his word choices aren't coincidental and this is one more detail that sheds some light with that. If anything because any knowledge about usurpers seems to be among the highest most classified knowledge of this world (there is an interesting ranking of that, but the lore is too extensive to make one of those) and as always, even though he doesn't state it openly, he once again says something that only those who know about it would understand.
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