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egotisticalmachine · 6 months

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sorry to ask you to ‘diagnose’ me, but lately ive been finding that i really really heavily relate to a lot of pwNPDs posts. ive also noticed thought patterns i have with my non-system splitting (thoughts go from ‘i am the most victimized person ever in the world’ to ‘i am the most horrible abuser that ever existed’).

i wanted to ask how you got diagnosed/started seeking information on NPD. i want to perhaps bring these thought patterns up the my therapist, but im unsure how to (esp since she has used the term “narcisstic abuse” in reference to experiences ive had)

any advice?

thank you for your patience, my life is very busy these days and i dont have a whole lot of time for tumblr, but i dont want you to think this is unimportant to me.

to be clear, im self diagnosed, and not planning on seeking a professional diagnosis, so i can only really walk you through doing your own research and self reflection and tips i can imagine would be helpful for seeking a diagnosis if you choose to do so. im aware my choice is somewhat controversial, and i would be happy to list out all my reasoning in a separate post, but i feel like that would be really fucking long (and kind of bitter tbh) and this is already gonna be a doozy. my main point is that if youre going to self diagnose, itll take a lot of research and thought; and if youre going to seek a prof diagnosis, itll take research and thought as well but youll also need to take into account the trustworthiness of whoever you turn to for help. if you go the prof dx route, i wish you nothing but the best of luck.

but onto my own process.

first, the DSM-5. a free PDF of the entire thing can be found here. make sure to read over the first part defining personality disorders as a whole, as well as the section on narcissistic personality disorder ofc, AND the disorders that it can often be mistaken for, which are listed under "Differential Diagnosis". take note of any that it seems you might fit the criteria for instead, or in addition. remember that NPD can be comorbid with many other conditions, as long as it isnt directly negating the diagnosis, such as narcissistic traits only being during episodes of mania.

please note though that the DSM-5 is still written from an outsider perspective. while it is ultimately the outline for a diagnosis, its not exempt from framing us in a negative light. for example - my lack of empathy isnt the result of any "unwillingness", i literally just have a lower capacity to empathize with others than the average person does. i can fake it, most of the time, but i cant force the real thing.

the DSM-5 also focuses mainly on pwNPD who are more outwardly grandiose, while ignoring those of us who dont present that way. for the most part im not a very "arrogant, haughty" person because ive learned thats not how i get my needs met. i may sometimes accidentally sound patronizing without realizing it, or i might unmask in safe environments and let myself be healthily arrogant (like playfully boasting and half-joking about everyone loving me), but on the whole i avoid it because in my experience, people like me better when im humble. even if im often arrogant internally, i filter myself. im not particularly grandiose now, but i used to be even less so - i was more of what gets referred to as a vulnerable narcissist, displaying (very often excessive by the standards of social acceptability, but still usually genuine) emotional vulnerability to others in the hopes of getting comfort and attention, and often placing myself into the "inferior" social rung that i believed everyone else wrongly saw me as because i felt that if i tried to take the "superior" position i "rightfully deserved" i would be hated for it. now i would say im in between grandiose and vulnerable, but still not as grandiose as whats described in the DSM-5.

also, consider the ways the criteria might apply in ways that may differ from whats described, or what immediately comes to mind. the "Diagnostic Features" section describes pretty specific scenarios, and i know i personally sometimes struggle to think beyond the examples im given. are the "special people" you associate with morally or creatively or spiritually special? do you exhibit entitlement by not doing assignments and being surprised by the consequences, or by expecting someone else in the household to handle the chores because youre busy, without considering that theyre busy too, maybe even busier? does your need for admiration apply to art you create, jokes you tell, facts you share?

TLDR for those last four paragraphs: the DSM-5 is absolutely the starting place for research, but doesnt encompass the entirety of the narcissistic experience. which is where the next step comes in -

keep researching. this step is... very, very difficult. the sad truth is youll mostly see articles about how horrible narcissists apparently are. youve probably already seen much of this and im sorry. theres not really any way to avoid it, because even resources that can offer actual help tend to have at least a degree of disdain for us. ive seen some pwNPD recommend the works of dr daniel fox, such as his worksheets available for free online, and if they might be helpful i encourage you to utilize those; however even his youtube channel is incredibly villainizing, at least based on the thumbnails (I Am Not Clicking On That Shit) so i really cant take him seriously and wont be giving him any of my money. please just be cautious wading through everything and remember that, whether you have NPD or just narcissistic traits, you arent the monster these people want to frame you as.

i wish i could remember every article that helped me along the way, but the biggest one i always recommend to ANYONE who wants to learn more about NPD is the one ill link here, Narcissus And The Daffodils. the authors use the checklist linked here to go into detail describing the spectrum of narcissistic experiences. the checklist is built using the DSM-5 criteria, essentially reworded, restructured, and added to in order to offer a more thorough understanding of NPD.* the authors elaborate on the checklist to explain how those criteria tie in with the experiences described.

*while the checklist is described as a potential tool for self diagnosis, i firmly believe it cant be your only resource to do so, and im unsure if that was the intention of the creators, who do openly state that they arent professionals. however, i still consider this a very helpful resource.

as an additional note: NatD touches on three different forms of empathy, emotional, cognitive, and compassionate. after doing a lot of research on the subject, my conclusion is that nobody can fucking agree on how to categorize and label different forms of empathy, but the categorization is still helpful for me and many others. basically, whats being said is helpful, just prepare to be confused if you try to research further because that model of empathy isnt the only one out there.

beyond that, you kind of just have to keep on trucking. sift through the bullshit. use your critical thinking skills, consider what info might actually be helpful and what might just be hateful and able to be disregarded. try to keep seeking out pwNPD, but also be cautious that even some pwNPD arent going to give the best info (r/NPD sucks ass and so does the associated discord holy fuuuuuuuuuck, absolutely toxic community and also not very queer friendly). and you mentioned relating to posts made by pwNPD, so it sounds like youve already been seeking out communities, and hopefully youve been finding good ones! im certain other pwNPD have more resources than what im able to offer as well.

TLDR for the past five paragraphs: research research research, keep your wits about you, think for yourself, seek out healthy communities, and dont let the shitheads get you down.

this will also take a lot of self reflection. you need to consider how your symptoms affect your daily life, your interpersonal relationships, your private moments. can you pinpoint when this started; was it sudden, or have these traits been building up over time? what might have caused all of this, what did your youth look like, what does your life look like now? how have you been praised? how have you been hurt? what were your parents or guardians like?

professionals arent 100% certain of what causes NPD, but there are patterns - genetics, upbringing, trauma. look at your roots just as much as your branches, so to speak. some pwNPD were praised too much as a child, made to feel more important than others. some had their needs neglected. some experienced both. im sure there are other factors im forgetting to list, so again, go listen to other pwNPD and see if anything they say clicks with you. ill use myself as an example below for the sake of explaining one of many many ways NPD can develop, but thatll touch on childhood emotional abuse and trauma, without going into too much detail. if thats still upsetting to read about, feel free to skip the next paragraph.

growing up i was both put on a pedestal for my achievements and talents (like getting good grades or being cute) and devalued for anything that was inconvenient or undesirable (like being easily scared or making mistakes), so i learned subconsciously that i was somehow innately superior to my peers but also that my superiority was conditional and i was innately flawed. i moved houses constantly, so i didnt get to learn how to develop lasting friendships, and my detachment made it far too easy for me to see people as temporary sources of attention and entertainment and not much else, easy to discard without any trouble once our time was up. even once my family settled down in my teen years, they still maintained an idea that i was better than my friends. my mother in particular was manipulative, so i learned to be manipulative too - i became calculated in how i spoke and behaved, tugged at heartstrings, and outright lied countless times, all as a survival mechanism as it became harder and harder to meet the expectations placed on me. i couldnt depend on the same easiness of childhood i had grown up with, especially with other obstacles like schizophrenia in the way of my grades, but i hadnt been taught how to work for success and didnt have the support to succeed, i just felt entitled to it, it felt like something innate to me. and while all these family and school troubles were happening, and eventually work troubles, i had my trust broken many times by many people (often BECAUSE my drive for attention led me to stick around awful people and put up with hurtful behavior), and this reinforced my misanthropic idea that i must be better than other people, but that i have to prove im not below them.

aside from just shamelessly liking to talk about myself - im sure i can be honest with you here lmao - im saying all this to illustrate a very important aspect of my self diagnosis process. i am able to pinpoint a VAST array of experiences from my youth, including plenty that i didnt even mention here, which contributed to the development of my symptoms and influence my current day behavior and psyche.

which means, going back to the tree analogy, i can connect my roots to my branches. i can recognize the symptoms i experience, the branches, and i can trace back down to the experiences that led to those symptoms, the roots. that helped me to better rule out other possible causes for those symptoms - i dont experience low empathy solely because of my autism, even if that is a factor, but specific events in my life further lowered my empathetic ability beyond what it potentially could have been. i dont feel superior as a symptom of mania, both because its a constant feeling and because i can explain how that feeling was instilled in me.

dont feel bad if you cant pinpoint everything like this. like i said, it takes a lot of self reflection, and if theres trauma involved, itll probably be a painful process. its ongoing too, there are still moments that i suddenly make a connection between a branch and a root. and mental illnesses as a whole are complex, because the brain is complex, and life is complex. and, again, genetics are believed to be a factor, so it could be possible that if you have NPD, you may have had a lot fewer developmental experiences that led into it, but experts just really arent 100% sure about all the facts. all i can tell you is my own experience.

and of course, i know ive already said it plenty of times, but focus on those branches too. really really consider how your symptoms impact you and how well they may line up with NPD or potentially something else. i know that i have full certainty in my self diagnosis, but i know that wont be the case for everyone and even with your own personal certainty, you might still want a professional diagnosis. again, if you choose to seek that, i wish you only the best and i hope youre treated with nothing but the highest respect and dignity.

so my tips for that prof dx as someone without one. first and foremost in this section: gonna have to say your current therapist is a no-go. its not impossible to change someones mind about narcissistic abuse, but its also sadly not all that likely on your own, and more importantly it isnt your job when youre just trying to get help for a potential disorder. there are websites where you can search for specialists (dont use psychologytoday), but i know when i tried on a site i sadly forget the name of, i didnt get any results, so i dont know how many options are out there and listed on these sites.

your next option is probably word of mouth. reaching out to NPD communities, asking who can be trusted. but, given how small the community is, and that you dont want to doxx yourself and might not feel safe asking people you know irl, thatll probably be difficult too. there may be listings somewhere by pwNPD, but im unaware of any.

i think the next best option is just to reach out to therapists in your area, or just as far as youre willing/able to travel, or as far as theyll take telehealth appointments - and ask them some questions. do some doctor shopping. this is an important decision and you need to know you can trust the person youll be opening up to. i would start by simply asking if they treat people with narcissistic personality disorder. some therapists may simply not have the expertise to offer such treatment, while others may actively refuse to do so, but either way, you want that yes/no answer. if they do treat pwNPD, you can continue to ask questions about their goals in treating pwNPD, the processes they use, their success rates with these patients.

i would be cautious in asking any questions that might even POSSIBLY come off as accusatory. directly asking a therapists opinions on narcissistic abuse may result in them slotting you into the "victim complex" role, or them feeling like theyre being put on the defense, even if they dont hold those beliefs. even those who dont see us fully as villains can still see us poorly. try to ask questions that are more common to what anyone would ask while researching a therapist, and take note of anything that seems off, or of if they seem particularly safe and affirming.

also!! please consider your insurance, if you have it! all my recent doctors have been referrals from other doctors, but in the past ive had to go on the site for my insurance and find a list of doctors who would take it. alternatively, you could ask upfront if they take your insurance.

beyond all this, i dont think theres any other advice i can give you. so ill give the floor to anyone who might have anything else to add, any resources, articles, websites, therapists, advice, words of encouragement, polite corrections to anything i might have gotten wrong.

if you read this far, thank you for your time, and thank you for trusting me to offer my help. i hope i could steer you in the right direction, because the sea is fucking rough out there. whether its NPD or something else youre struggling with, im happy to help you out, even if it takes me some time to reply. and once more for good measure: i wish you the best of luck, dignity, and care.

#asks #advice #teefiesworld #also ill put this in the tags since the post is mainly addressing diagnosis and research #but like. id kind of had NPD on the back of my mind for A While before actually researching it #like ''hmmm maybe i should look into that. nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh''#''why do i struggle so much to consider others? why do i detach so easily? why do i obsess over praise? oh well nbd lol''#and i didnt give it much thought bc i didnt present very grandiosely #until eventually it gnawed at my brain enough that i researched vulnerable narcissism and had an entire breakdown of my self perception #over the course of. idk however long it took me to come to terms with my narcissism #its so funny bc i think people see treating NPD as involving a decrease in grandiosity #but for me i had to learn to INCREASE my grandiosity bc i was suppressing it so hard it was detrimental to me #all about striking that balance #not to say ive like. cured myself or whatever. but im absolutely way healthier than i used to be #bc i learned to identify those branches and roots and started adjusting my behavior #idk im ramblingggg but you asked about how i started seeking info and like #i dunno it was just kinda. i couldnt keep ignoring my symptoms and started with vulnerable narcissism and the DSM-5 and on from there iirc #btw imagine im telling you all this in like the corner of a cafe over some hot drinks n pastries or what have you. my digital treat to u

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