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newhologram · 6 years

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Glorious purpose, sacrifice, and the god who started it all

Send a heartbeat to The void that cries through you Relive the pictures that have come to pass For now we stand alone The world is lost and blown And we are flesh and blood disintegrate With no more to hate

- The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning by Smashing Pumpkins (because this song is 100% about Avengers)

Been on an MCU binge to put everything under a microscope, so here’s what’s been rolling around in my brain.

Infinity War spoilers below with speculation/theories for Avengers 4 that includes A4 spoilery set leak stuff.

**SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT**

* * *

There’s a lot to talk about as far as theories as we were given some hopeful leads in IW and other films. Just to take inventory on some other speculations and fun ideas:

Shuri may have backed Vision up

Soul World: is that where Gamora is? Is that where everyone who was dusted went?

Nebula may get a meaningful role in helping to take Thanos down

Captain Marvel’s role in all this??

The possibility of Adam Warlock coming out of his cocoon

The Eternals maybe

Hawkeye/Ronin

Thor’s Stormbreaker handle being made of Groot somehow solving something

Thanos being overcome with grief in his isolation

The possibility of a major time jump in A4 to see how Earth has moved on after the snap, which may include Tony’s future with Pepper and their child. Everyone will have lived so many years with the consequences of the snap.

It also feels like each character might have to go on their own hunt for the stones, which might lead to an interesting reversal of the loss and sacrifice they faced in IW. I wonder who gets assigned to each stone and how that’ll play out for their individual character arc? There’s one stone for each original Avenger, so that’s cool to think about

Erasing versus dying. If you’ve heard anything about “the Event” that a lot of astrologers have been talking about lately, basically our reality is due for a cosmic event which splits us—leaving people behind and taking the rest into a prosperous new universe. Some will be “erased” from this existence. It’s been called the Rapture. Which is uh. Pretty interesting considering IW premiered on the actual date of the rapture prediction and how the Snap is absolutely a kind of sad superhero bad ending rapture.

Rewriting everything that we’ve seen in the past 6 years in canon

I’ve also seen some talk of theories such as “Loki is Bruce Banner in disguise”. I can see why this theory is popular because Bruce acts really weird the whole movie and seems to know things he shouldn’t. But I’m not too into it because it feels like there’s a big payoff coming with the Hulk (as in, we better get a cool shot of him bursting out of the Hulkbuster armor, like the toy).

There’s also some talk about spotting Quicksilver and even Wolverine on the set but I have nooo idea what those would even mean, not just in regards to the plot but with the whole joint custody thing Sony, Fox and Disney have been working out.

All of that said, I’ve been thinking about a few other threads in particular though, so that’s what I’ll be exploring here. Just speculation for fun. Let’s see where it leads.

☀ Undying Fidelity

The opening scene was really suspicious to me for many reasons. These directors are sharp and I believe there is purpose to everything we see as well as what we don’t see.

Let’s talk about my boy Loki.

He starts out pretty scared. The guy is sweating bullets.

After the Hulk engages Thanos, Loki isn’t on screen for several minutes. We don’t see him reacting or hiding or anything. I don’t trust that, especially not with the Russo bros directing it. I feel as though something is being hidden from us in this moment, distracted by the Hulk just as much as the bad guys are.

When he reappears to offer himself as a guide to Thanos, suddenly his demeanor is totally different. He seems calm, resolved even.

His choice of words is very important. The most suspicious to me are: “rightful heir to Jotunheim”, “God of Mischief”, “do hereby pledge my undying fidelity”. Loki does not want us to forget that he’s not only a Jotunn, not Asgardian by blood, but he’s a God, and a very, very cunning one. To be honest, it doesn’t feel like that last line was for Thanos at all. It honestly feels like he’s saying it to someone else—maybe himself. To his own duty in this moment. Which brings me to the next bullet point:

After that last line, dagger forming, his eyes quickly dart down. There’s a pause. A small beat there. He looks as though he’s steeling himself. That, to me, is the face of a man who very much knows he’s about to die. It’s a very Obi-Wan moment, right in front of Thor. It’s somehow even more heartbreaking if he knew it was coming, and was still so scared and small when Thanos wrapped his fist around his neck.

Loki’s a smart cookie. He may be relatively young for a god/alien but this isn’t his first rodeo. He already knows how deadly and terrifying Thanos is without the Gauntlet/stones, so what does he think he can do right now? He knows a little dagger isn’t going to win this for them and that’s precisely the point. He isn’t dumb enough to try that sincerely, which makes me believe even more that it was strategic. I have a feeling Thanos chiding him about his choice in words (”undying”) is going to come back to bite him in the ass.

Back to Loki’s words being important. When he’s first about to surrender the Tesseract earlier in the scene, he says to Thor, "I promise you, brother, the sun will shine on us again." He says it with so much purpose.

And his final words to Thanos: “You will never be a god.” Another reminder: Loki is a god. He’s survived a black hole, stabbing, Hulk-smashing, Grandmaster’s orgies, and likely more in his years. We’ve come to expect him to fake his own death by this point, though I’m still on the fence about whether this one was fake, or a necessary one he knew needed to happen, or somehow a bit of both. I wonder, only a little, where did Loki’s body go, is it just floating around with the rest of the dead?

For that matter, where the hell is Valkyrie? Is there any meaningful payoff rather than just humor for Korg calling Loki a ghost in Ragnarok? I’m not too hopeful for something like that, but it’s a thought.

Later on in the film we see Thor, another god, (barely) survive the concentrated full force of a dying star. I’m supposed to believe Loki, an incredibly gifted frost giant child trained in the arts of magic, Loki Ha Ha Duplicates of Me Everywhere Odinson, Loki I’m Right Where I Need to Be Laufeyson just has a sudden brain fart, tries to stab the Mad Titan, gets his neck snapped in front of his brother, and it’s not on purpose?

BITCH. DID. NOT. TURN. BACK. TO. BLUE.

Do I really think Loki is still alive? I don’t know. Loki is very, very dear to me but like I said, I’m on the fence. Because it seems like the deaths that happened before the snap, save for Gamora, might be permanent because we needed to feel that the stakes were high. On the other hand, again, Loki is very gifted. We’ve seen him “die” before and I still have a very hard time believing he’s fully dead and not god-level deep coma smacked down needing time to regenerate if he doesn’t just turn blue right after since his iconic look is an illusion too. His line about the sun shining on them again uses the word “us”, which could indicate a revival and reunion somehow.

But I’m cry because you know he and Thor got into a lot of trouble growing up, and big brother was always there for him. But then little brother goes through some hard stuff, falls into a black hole, gets picked up by a cult, and it all comes down to this moment now: no home to return safely to, no mother to console him after Odin’s discipline, Thor unable to save him.

♥ We Don’t Trade Lives

Before I go into A4 speculation, let’s look at how each character deals with sacrifice, just for fun:

Loki is given a choice: his brother’s life, or the Space Stone → Loki surrenders and sacrifices himself

Quill is given a choice: the love of his life, or Thanos getting closer to winning → Quill is hesitates and is unable to keep his promise of sacrificing Gamora

Gamora is given a choice: her sister, or the location of the Soul Stone → Gamora surrenders to spare Nebula

Thanos is given a choice: his favorite daughter, or the Soul Stone → Thanos sacrifices Gamora for the stone

Dr. Strange is given a choice: Tony Stark, or the Time Stone → Despite earlier warning Tony he wouldn’t hesitate to sacrifice either him or Peter if it means keeping the Time Stone safe, he surrenders the stone → He sacrifices his duty, his life, and the lives of everyone else who gets dusted in order to put them on the one right path he saw out of over 14 million

Wanda is given a choice: Vision, or the Mind Stone → Her struggle with this choice starts earlier on when Vision offers to sacrifice himself to destroy the Mind Stone → Cap tells him “we don’t trade lives” → Wanda is also not willing to immediately kill him when asked → They run out of time and options, Wanda finally sacrifices Vision, which as we saw didn’t really work out the way they wanted

Our characters struggle with sacrificing something important to them in order to save the universe (remember, in the eyes of Thanos, he’s saving the universe too). Many of the characters value their loved ones above everything else and don’t want to have to make that choice. They don’t want to face the pain of a life without that person, or they don’t want another person to suffer or die painfully because of them.

Alright. Let’s talk bidness.

♛ Reframe the Future

Yeah—remember B.A.R.F.? Binarily Augmented Retro-Framing.

This has to be what Tony will use to look back at things. I see him replaying the events of the first Avengers over and over, trying to figure out how it all could’ve gone so wrong, what clues they missed, and how to fix it.

Which brings us to the question of time travel. Is this where the idea of Infinite Avengers will come in, if the multiverse is explored? I don’t have too much of a lead on that, but it’s interesting to think about. If that ends up being the title of A4 it would certainly point to that.

(Note Tony’s greying hair which supports the idea that A4 will start 5-10 years after Infinity War)

Many have speculated about the devices on their wrists in these photos, as well as the fact that while Tony and Ant-Man seem to be their present selves, others are in their old costumes from the first Avengers. Doesn’t quite answer why Cap is wearing a device, unless they recruit lots of multiversal Avengers from various timelines/realities/points in history to help? (Wouldn’t it be crazy to find out that Ant-Man has been a secret tiny time traveling Avenger the whole time?)

It’s hard to know exactly what kind of time travel shenanigans we’re dealing with. Maybe we’ll learn more when we see Ant-Man and the Wasp, since they’re going to be dealing with the quantum realm, where time doesn’t really exist. In the quantum realm, every possibility exists at the same time.

We do have some clues though.

Exhibit A: Loki in all his muzzled glory, as seen at the end of Avengers.

We know that this time travel plot would involve going back to where it all started. But what could be done, what is Tony’s play?

Exhibit B: Tony Stark in S.H.I.E.L.D. gear. More specifically—

As one of Loki’s escorts.

What we don’t see in Avengers is how everything goes down when they take Loki back into custody (after grubbing on shawarma). We don’t see the discussion about what to do with him and Thor’s decision to take Loki and the Tesseract back to Asgard.

So, again, what the hell is Tony’s game plan?

If he’s disguised as a guard, there could be a chance to get alone with Loki and talk to him. Tell him everything that goes down. Get him to help. Get info from him, and make sure he knows how things need to play out in order for this all to work.

I’m not sure how yet though. It seems this could somehow involve Stark making his own Infinity Gauntlet, but that’s later down the line. Where does Loki fit into the plan beyond the time travel scene? That may be all we get of him.

I’m so excited for the possibility of my two favorite characters working together or even having just once more scene together, however it plays out. Tony and Loki both smiled at each others’ jokes in A1 and I loved it. I feel like their dynamic would be so interesting to explore more. Tony totally clocked that Loki is a diva, because they’re both like that lol.

☮ Glorious Purpose

But what’s most interesting to me right now is the implication that if this is the closed loop kind of time travel, it would mean Loki has known about all this since the end of Avengers.

When the Hulk was distracting everyone, was Loki hiding behind a wall, readying himself for what he knew he needed to do next? I’ve heard talk of the possibility of a duplicate since that’s what Loki does, but would Thanos have been able to tell he was killing an illusion? He didn’t have the Soul Stone then which likely helped him tell which Strange was real later. I’ve also heard talk of a Loki switchout, but I’m not too convinced because it would involve somehow transporting another Loki there. Not so sure there would be a stealthy way to do any of that.

Did Loki die in the beginning of Infinity War fully knowing all those years that it was going to happen, that it needed to happen, in order for the sun to shine again?

Did Loki die to help save the universe?

...

If Loki knew those few weeks on Sakaar were going to be his last, do you think he was like, “Guess I better live my best life and spend my final days sipping cocktails on Grandmaster’s lap.”

My final speculation prediction REQUIREMENT from Marvel Studios is to have Avengers 4 end with a beautiful Pepperony wedding filled with superheroes. Whoever’s left, that is.

(This also means if there’s a time jump, Tony will possibly erase the present he has with Pepper and their child in order to save everyone... Should be interesting.)

In conclusion, have this whiteboard drawing I did for @spazzeon as I tried to explain all of this

#avengers #mcu #infinity war #marvel #loki #infinity war spoilers #teku #long post

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elizabethrobertajones · 6 years

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Ok so if all four of them are gonna be in a *cowboy themed* motel in 13x6 they're gonna have to split up 2 and 2 right??? So I'm really gonna need Dean and Cas to share a room and then have a convo that's reverse of the "Talk to me" one in S8 where instead they talk about how they both did feel suicidal but how they've both overcome it. ~For reasons unknown~

That would be great mirroring, and it’s always good to compare the fun episodes where things seem back to normal to 8x08… However… Sorry, but this is a bummer reply, I’m just not good with leaving off things like this :P

I sort of feel though that neither Dean or Cas got to completely overcome things in their respective paths through dark other worlds… Cas said he’d just keep fighting and even if the standing up was an important part, he acknowledged he was going back with a sense of hopelessness that he’d get what he truly wants - and that’s just how it was in the Empty, while it sounds like he may have forgotten the experience so it’s for now a metaphorical state he passed through and we got to see it vocalised and it probably means roughly where he’s up to. But the despair of resolution, the fact need/want has been called out for US to know it’s a major theme but Cas of course hasn’t actually talked face to face with any Winchester, let alone Dean, to resolve need/want, which is the core of his depression, thematically… He’s come back with levelled up determination and a will to live, which is great, but there’s so much work to do before he feels happy even if he DOES remember the Empty. I’ve written ridiculously long things tracking his arc so I’ll just say that this was a great step forwards for him but in no way actually resolving anything.

For Dean as well, Billie sent him back but it was with the “work to do” order/motivation that’s made Dean and Sam power through a lot of their worst times, and like how in the Empty nothing new was actually said about Cas, it just brought everything up that was troubling him so we’d get a sample of how he feels, that was just repeating the theme for Dean that he started this season on - that at best he’s going to feel like a guy doing his job, because someone more important than him told him he had to and he can’t stop now.

Billie’s words are the sort of advice he got in season 7 after Cas (and then Bobby) died, from Bobby, Frank and Eliot Ness, all of which was a variation of the same sort of nihilism about doing the job because it’s the job and you’re the one who does it. I’m in most agreement with the meta I’ve seen that Dean didn’t go into that whole mess looking for a reason to die, he just was in that state Bobby described:

BOBBY:I want to talk about your new party line.

DEAN:Party? What are you talking about? I don’t even vote.

BOBBY:“The world’s a suicide case. We save it, it just steals more pills”?

DEAN:Bobby, I’m here, okay? I’m on the case. What’s the problem?

BOBBY:I’ve seen a lot of hunters live and die. You’re starting to talk like one of the dead ones, Dean.

DEAN:No, I’m talking the way a person talks when they’ve had it, when they can’t figure out why they used to think all this mattered.

I’m picking on this conversation because it’s the most detailed but also because it’s the one Dean has WITH Bobby so in no way shape or form can it be about Dean losing Bobby, except that of course this episode gave Dean and Sam both a private conversation with Bobby about where they were at, so we could have a good last moment with him each, and also to gauge how they’d react to his death (Dean with this massive depression caused by losing Cas and his betrayal to pile on top of) and Bobby’s last advice apply after as well. His advice being:

BOBBY:Come on, now. You tried to hang it up and be a person with Lisa and Ben. And now here you are with a mean old coot and a van full of guns. That ain’t person behavior, son. You’re a hunter, meaning you’re whatever the job you’re doing today. Now, you get a case of the Anne Sextons, something’s gonna come up behind you and rip your fool head off. Now, you find your reasons to get back in the game. I don’t care if it’s love or spite or a ten-dollar bet. I’ve been to enough funerals. I mean it. You die before me, and I’ll kill you.

Cheery.

But this is essentially what Billie does for Dean. She reads him, sees he wants to die, and he tells her that he doesn’t matter, so she reassures him that he has a job, that he is important, that he’s in this cosmic position of responsibility. It would almost be encouraging, to know you’re not meant to die that day, that there is a reason for you to be alive. But not for Dean in the state he was in then.

Cas coming back is GREAT and of course it’s going to make Dean wildly happy. But he’s been feeling this way about the job a long, long time in ways that aren’t to do with Cas at all but is just his underlying major trauma that you can see coming from a hundred miles off in season 1:

from 2x09:

DEANI’m tired, Sam. I’m tired of this job, this life … this weight on my shoulders, man. I’m tired of it.

[…]

DEANI just think we should take a break from all this. Why do we gotta get stuck with all the responsibility, you know? Why can’t we live life a little bit?

Or this speech from 2x20 I contractually have to quote at least once a month as a card-carrying Dean!girl:

DEAN All of them. Everyone that you saved, everyone Sammy and I saved. They’re all dead. And there’s this woman, that’s haunting me. I don’t know why. I don’t know what the connection is, not yet anyway. It’s like my old life is, is coming after me or something. Like it like it doesn’t want me to be happy. Course I know what you’d say. Well, not the you that played softball but… “So go hunt the Djinn. He put you here, it can put you back. Your happiness for all those people’s lives, no contest. Right?” But why? Why is it my job to save these people? Why do I have to be some kind of hero? What about us, huh? What, Mom’s not supposed to live her life, Sammy’s not supposed to get married? Why do we have to sacrifice everything, Dad? It’s… Yeah…

(And, side note, it really annoys me when people make 2x20 about brotherly wuv, platonically or not, because THAT is why Dean decided to go un-wish this life, not because of anything to do with AU Sam, who he still trusted he could find his Sam in >.> I’ll just keep repeating this until I stop stumbling over the idea… :P)

He’s had similar smaller moments like this but season 2, 7 and now 13 are his grief seasons, so I’m most interested in these parallels. Like, just in general. Specifically in season 2 because he was dealing with John’s order to save Sam or kill him, which of course is a dynamic that Jack could horrifyingly repeat for him if Dean gets attached to a kid with the same horrifying destiny. Specifically in season 7 Dean was dealing with losing Cas and it immediately struck him to the core, that even while Cas was still Godstiel he was having mirrors with his season 2 self after losing John:

DEANSounds good. You got any leads on where the demon is? Making heads or tails of any of Dad’s research? Because I sure ain’t. But you know, if we do finally find it - oh. No, wait, like you said. The Colt’s gone. But I’m sure you’ve figured out another way to kill it. We’ve got nothing, Sam. Nothing, okay? So you know the only thing I can do? Is I can work on the car.

[… five years elapse]

SAM: So, what? Try to talk to him again?

DEAN: Sam.

SAM: Dean, all we can do is talk to the guy.

DEAN: He’s not a guy. He’s God. And he’s pissed. And when God gets righteous, you get the hell out of the way; haven’t you read the Bible?

SAM: I guess…

DEAN: Cas is never coming back. He’s lied to us, he used us, he cracked your gourd like it was nothing. No more talk; we have spent enough on him.

SAM: Okay.

DEAN: Hand me that socket wrench.

Dean didn’t lose the car this time, just had Miriam deface it with “Bitch” on the window and the car was washed and shiny in a couple of episodes. But it’s metaphorically a similar process and I guess all they had time for when 13x01 was about taking time in a very different way, by giving Dean like 10 minutes at the end of the episode all about how he was grieving Cas.

Anyway, I think there’s a lot of thematic overlap in what it means for Dean right now, with Billie’s reminder of his position on the cosmic ladder, to John’s order about Sam, to Dean’s responsibility to deal with Cas and the Leviathans, which eventually crystallises into his mission to kill Dick - and though Dick kills Bobby, finding out who is the head leviathan in 7x09 really just seals the deal of who Dean needs to personally kill to deal with everything, and the Bobby thing was just an extra motivation to fall into a revenge mindset, but it also about what happened with Cas (and when Cas comes back, he has to help kill Dick for the same reason it all happened to him and he was connected to it and responsible).

We really haven’t seen anything yet, but I think getting Cas back is a temporary fix at least to a bigger issue, which is Dean’s burden of the world, which Chuck lumped on him in 11x23 and made me very, very excited that Dean’s duty to save everyone was hopefully going to get some microscopic treatment and maybe one day some sort of resolution. I don’t think Billie’s comment was a pick me up, and it reminds me of how Cas started picking on Dean on Heaven’s behalf in 4x01 - telling him they had work for him. In 4x02 Dean complains a lot about how he hates being singled out and it’s absolutely horrifying that he was saved for unknown reasons. And those reasons turned out to be being Michael’s vessel and one of the 2 grenade pins needed to be pulled on the planet being destroyed.

(Which we have some handy visuals for and reminders of in the AU world right now :P)

I’d hope in the long run Chuck’s orders end up being destroyed as much as John’s were, because the parallel is 1 to 1 except bigger scale, and Chuck telling Dean the world has him to protect it literally in God’s own place is an absolutely horrifying unfair burden than broke him in season 5 and can be directly equated to how season 2 broke him when Sam, who was basically his whole world at the time, was lumped on him with the same burden. In the mean time, Billie’s adding to the weight on Dean, although long run she’s neutral, commenting on it rather than ordering, and seems to have some confidence that he has a purpose and will fulfil it, I can see Dean struggling with it in just the same way he took Cas’s comments in 4x01.

So even if he seems happy to get Cas back, the root problem of his depression, his sense of being worthless, is still truly about how he defines himself as a hunter and the guy who is supposed to save everyone - who will trade himself for a house of random ghosts he feels he LET DOWN by not investigating well enough sooner. Because he has sole responsibility to fix the planet.

The job is killing Dean literally and metaphorically, and the grief of losing all his loved ones as they do it is just an additional awful, awful part of it. Not getting Cas back immediately thanks to Chuck in 13x01 just confirmed how alone Dean is in the world to him, and he directly mentioned the line from 11x23 when reaching out to Chuck… Getting Cas back and Cas returning seemingly on his own steam is going to be a nice turning point, and good for uplifting Dean, but the core problem remains and since 11x23 I’ve been pretty certain that Dean’s endgame is NOT to be a hunter… Billie also now makes me think he has some purpose to fulfil, and ideally, fulfilling it would let him finally get off the cosmic ladder and be who he wants to be without obligation.

About all I can really speculate about that hopeful endgame would be that Sam seems to be lumped in with Dean on this, but Cas is literally outside the system based on how he got himself back from the Empty without Chuck’s interference, OR except for in thematic “rewards” or dramatic irony from just missing him really hard, Dean didn’t actually bring him back by DOING anything, and Jack, who is also outside the system in some ways, did instead. But that’s all a huge mess right now :P Need more data.

So anyway, to go back to Dean and Cas next episode? I think they will have a lot to talk about but it has to be immediate character stuff about their actions and desires. They are both really good for each other and going through very similar emotional territory so I hope they get honest and tell each other how they’re doing, but I don’t think they’ll be talking about overcoming anything. I think if it does mirror 8x08 it MAY be a reversal that Dean admits how bad he was doing without Cas, and Cas is still too uncertain about what happened to him or with a link to make it directly about Dean to reciprocate the sentiment… For all the good communication lately I’m not entirely sure if Dean and Cas can absolutely knock down all the walls.

And I seriously fear dramatic interruptions to their reconciliation just because of the extremely vague episode descriptions we have after 13x06, which seem to be concealing exactly what happens in that episode… I’m really expecting silly cowboys for like the middle half of the episode, with the first quarter for reconciliation and getting onto the job, and the last quarter or five minutes for shit to completely hit the fan in some way, probably about Jack, and probably involving Cas since he’s specifically not mentioned in the episode descriptions *even though they just got him back*.

I’m not worried or wanky about this, I’m just bracing myself for the next round of drama and what its subject will be. If Cas is fine and hanging out with the Winchesters still for 2 episodes and it was redacted spoilers for the sake of 13x05′s last 5 minutes that’s awesome :P But it sounds like time to brace yourself not to expect everything to be fluffy or resolved, either with plot stuff, or emotional arcs. We’re only 5 episodes in so the drama needs to keep on happening, and there’s no way Dean and Cas can or should overcome their arcs about their depression when it’s been set up so interestingly, just because they’re hanging out again.

But it WILL make them feel a lot better in the short term. :D I’m really excited for what they WILL say to each other, I just feel like in some ways we’re really starting to put the cart before the horse on identifying what stories are being told and what moments are being offered to tell them, and assuming the stories are over just because something really dramatic happened. I’m seeing it a lot with all sorts of thematic threads, that just because they’re becoming obvious or surface level or have had a really dramatic moment all about them, they’re being wrapped up as we speak. Instead I think it’s got to all be set up for the rest of the season, where this is all important stuff to know, but the real work hasn’t even begun yet :P

#Asks #they are DEFINITELY changing the emotional landscape of the show and have been for a few seasons #but that doesn't mean that it's all over just because things are turning up positively now :P #13x05 #13x04 #13x06 #season 13 spoilers #season 13 speculation #dean analysis #my stuff

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mittensmorgul · 6 years

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But why cant cas/misha be contracted to be in more eps? Having a main charactwe dissappear for 50% of the shows eps is something that happens on no other show ever. The leads closets characters are usually in all the eps. Cas as a sinilar positiin and history to arrows "felicity" (a guest character upgraded to main cast and a romance with the lead due to fan popularity) and she is all the eps with gigantic focus and I could go throw 100s shows why cant spn have that whe most others do?

Okay, I’ve been sitting on this long enough to have chilled out since the initial tsunami of wank hit my inbox the other day, so hopefully I’ll be able to address this in a level-headed fashion.

First off, comparing Supernatural to other shows just doesn’t work. The show really, truly, at the center of everything else, is about Sam and Dean Winchester. Yes, Cas is a very important character. Yes, he is a Winchester, part of their family, loved dearly by both of them. Yes, his entire character arc beginning from that first moment he crashed through those barn doors in 4.01 has been one of the most epic developments in any character in television (and arguably literary) history. Cas is Capital-I Important.

But the way the story of Supernatural has ALWAYS been told, Sam and Dean are at the center of the narrative. For the most part, the story happens TO Sam, and the emotional heart of the story has been experienced and reflected to us by Dean.

Now I ask of you to consider what actually happened with Felicity and Oliver. What did the show have to do to her and to their relationship when they seemed to be getting their Happily Ever After ending? (note: I don’t watch Arrow, but Mr. Mittens does, so I sort of watch it peripherally and have a general idea of what’s happening on the show through him)

Felicity was gravely injured, dark secrets from Oliver’s past resurfaced, Felicity’s trust in Oliver was broken, and their relationship ended. I mean… is that really the sort of thing you’re suggesting would be a good thing to happen to Dean and Cas?

Really?

Dean and Cas have been doing this very slow dance toward one another for nine years. Are you suggesting that suddenly shoving them together before the story is ready for them to be together just because “fan popularity” demands it is actually good writing?

Because at that point where does the narrative tension between those two come from? Would they fight with one another? Would they split up? I mean, that’s what happened to Oliver and Felicity…

So let’s not compare Supernatural to other shows. I’m more than happy with the QUALITY of Cas’s narrative over the last few seasons. The story itself has made it clear exactly what Cas’s issues are (depression, self-doubt, letting go of his obligation and duty to heaven, who and what he even is or wants to be, who he loves and what he fears…). We’ve been undeniably shown HOW IMPORTANT he is, both to Dean and to Team Free Will and the Winchester family unit.

We’ve also been undeniably shown Dean’s personal issues, with his self-doubt, his feelings of worthlessness, and his codependency with Sam has been put under a microscope for dissection. His issues with Mary and John, and his issues with God and the entire universe that keeps manhandling him into situations that he’s supposed to fix, his bout with the Mark of Cain and Amara, and now Billie’s plans for him… he just wants off that cosmic ride, but he doesn’t yet know how. And it’s undeniably clear that having Cas around is part of what he wants. Arguably a HUGE part of what he wants, if the first six episodes of s13 are anything to judge by.

So yeah, looking at the narrative as a whole, I am perfectly content to let Dabb and Supernatural keep telling this story the way they always have.

It’s spirals all the way down.

The narrative continues to circle through the same themes, but going through the loops faster and faster, overlapping more and more. Honestly it’s a gorgeous way to tell a story, just speaking as a writer. Like Billie said, it’s poetic.

I know writers (no name-naming, for obvious reasons) who have capitulated to reader demand for certain characters to do certain things, or for things the writer originally planned for the story to NOT happen because readers were upset by it, because the readers couldn’t see the writer’s Grand Plan… and without exception, EVERY writer I know that capitulated to Fan Demand and changed their story– altered their vision in the name of fanservice– regretted it and felt their story suffered for it.

So honestly? Yeah, I’m glad Dabb is holding to the reins here. I’m glad he hasn’t derailed NINE YEARS worth of buildup just to appease us. Because in the long run? That’s how you take something grand and suck the life right out of it.

What does that have to do with Misha’s contract or the number of episodes he’s scheduled to appear in every season? Pretty much everything. The story’s not ready for that.

Will the story ever be ready for that? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But I’m not writing it. Andrew Dabb is. I have no reason not to trust him here. So far he’s done nothing to shake my confidence in him, and in sticking to the larger narrative.

(Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting that people’s feelings on whether or not ANY character is being treated “fairly” by the overall narrative are invalid, nor am I suggesting that anybody doesn’t have the absolute right to discuss those feelings on their own blog. I share my *own personal opinions* on this matter. I’m getting anons telling me to shut up about this… and I’m like, you do know that the only reason I keep talking about this at all is because y’all are delivering it directly to my inbox, right? Most of why I haven’t been discussing this otherwise is because it’s something I’m entirely unconcerned about.)

#narrative structure #it's spirals all the way down #misha #castiel winchester #anonymous #this is an andrew dabb appreciation blog (except when it comes to car stuff)#how the sausage is made #wank adjacent #see this is why i avoid talking about my 'unpopular opinions' i like having friends :d #when stuff lands in my inbox i have to assume people are asking me specifically about it because they want reassurance #knowing that i am supremely chill™ about all of this sort of stuff #so i do try to reassure but sometimes i just don't know how to deal with straight-up vitriol because i can't even fathom it #and i have no desire to hurt anyone or invalidate anyone's feelings #i'm just sitting here in my happy little corner enjoying a tv show #dabb vs cars

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mothzi · 7 years

Text

To see a universe in a petri dish

I almost titled this post Reflections on Writing but that sounds like a pretentious Medium article written by an ambitious sleep-deprived intern stuck doing copywriting in a design company. At least this current one is manifestly ridiculous with no pretension otherwise.

This post is years in the making. I’ve got many different drafts of it, but it has never come out right: words keep failing me, or rather, I keep failing words. But I’m steamrolling ahead anyway. If you are kind enough to be reading this, please hold on tight, and give me a chance to try.

I want to talk about stories. Stories have evolved in form; they used to come between hard covers, now they have been liberated. But in structure they are still mostly the same. We are taught this in primary school, elementary school, the basic education level: that you must have a plot, a narrative. This plot is a journey, taking you from point A to point B. There is a main character (or a few main characters), whose back story(ies) and character growth (or in some cases, decline) drive, parallel, or is otherwise the main narrative. Stories have become so complicated now, of course (pick-your-own-adventure, anyone?), but the basic formula remains in that there must be this central cord—a spine—running through the story. Picture this like a satay: the narrative is the skewer, the meat (or mushroom, or other ingredients you like) are the other goodies like characters, world building, universe logic, great art, good looking actors, and the likes. The sauce can be the smut--some people think it’s not necessary, some people think you can’t have satay without it, most enjoy it anyway.

(Satay comes to mind because I’m South East Asian after all; feel free to substitute it for corndog, or other delicious skewered things that you like)

(I’ve never had a corndog before. Is it nice?)

But what if there is no main driving narrative, apart from the very loose and general narrative of the advance of time? Bear with me: forget about the story satay. What if we have a petri dish, fill that petri dish up, not with agar, but with water. Drop a few pollens onto the surface of that water. Now put the petri dish under a stereo microscope. What do you see?

You’d see the pollens moving about randomly with no clear discerned pattern whatsoever. This is because of Brownian Motion: millions of water molecules in that petri dish are colliding against the pollens, moving them this way and than that.

Let’s stretch this concept further then, imagine the petri dish is a storyverse. The pollens are characters. There is no main narrative drive here, no one can tell the pollens where to go. Sometimes the pollens bump against one another. Sometimes they end up going in the same direction. Sometimes they split apart. Sometimes they never meet. But they exist in the same storyverse, and each of their actions affect everything else in the petri dish in minuscule but real ways.

And imagine this, each story is basically that moment in time when you peer down the microscope and note the position of a pollen. In this storyverse, there are so many stories, all of which are self-contained episodes of a character or a few characters’ uncertain journey, a snapshot of their state in that moment in time. You can just stop there and step away from the story and move on with your life (please don’t), but read more stories and you get a sense of the character’s journey, as well as the universe as a whole.

What is this petri dish storytelling not? It is not necessarily boring--in fact, I’d like to think it allows for the audience to pour deeper emotional investments. The traditional storytelling arc is not necessarily excluded out. It’s just a different way of approaching the storytelling itself, of placing emphasis and focus on different elements of the stories, which in this case, should be on the characters, or an aspect of the characters.

This kind of storytelling is different from, say, the kind that Marvel is popularising now with MCU (although superhero comics and sci-fi books and TVs themselves have always been an MCU style storytelling). This kind of storytelling is like a tree that keeps branching, and each branch is as important a narrative spine as the other.

That kind of storytelling (which some people, for good reason, call it franchise storytelling) focuses on the universe--the world building--first and foremost. Yes, the characters can be compelling, but the characters are also vehicles to discover the universe, where there is a big purple dude with even bigger chin sitting on a chair wearing a glove with gems embedded in it, or where Kessel runs can be accomplished in 12 parsecs, or where there are 11 registered magical schools hidden all over the world!

But in the petri dish storyverse, the universe is just like that water in the petri dish, a medium. It can be something more--tons of exciting things can happen in the background, for example, birds, especially pigeons, could have risen up and taken over human civilisation. But it’s not treated as an attraction for the reader--the main focus is still on the characters going about their otherwise boring normal lives in the context of the universe. It doesn’t have to be necessarily slice-of-life, but it is descriptive and intimate. We follow the characters not to explore the universe, but because we’re nosy and maybe obsessed.

This is the kind of story that I’ve been trying to tell--and it’s sort of embarrassing to admit this--for years now. I thought (I still do think this) that there is no way it can work, chiefly for the reason that in a petri dish storyverse, there is no jumping on point. How do you introduce a story to someone? You give them the first book, the first issue, the first episode. There has to be a beginning. And most people want to know why they should be interested: this is the premise of the story, and most of the time this is best represented by the narrative spine, or a quirk of the world building. So I thought, no, there has to be the proper definitive story, and everything else can branch off it.

But it just doesn’t feel right! Yes, I can certainly attribute it to my being a weak writer and egregiously weak in narrative writing. It may also be the fact that I’m impatient and have the attention span of a fruit fly, and I want to be able to focus on a lot more characters than what can fit in a satay-story. A big theme of my writing is loneliness and uncertainty, and I feel that by trying to write a narrative driven story I deprive the characters of this space to explore their loneliness and uncertainty, and their interaction with others also struggling with their own loneliness and uncertainty.

In any case, I personally enjoy stories that force me to engage and think harder. I thought about this while watching Logan: I loved that a lot of the big events that might merit extended flashback or exposition scenes in other superhero movies are referred to obliquely, treating the audience as someone who’s been there all along. Storytellers who do this, in my opinion, are showing their audience a lot of respect and trust, and I appreciate that a lot. I spent months, years, trying to find a way to “make things easier” for the hypothetical reader. This is what I have to do when designing websites and UX/UI interface: make life easy for the user, incentivise them to go along.

But do I really have to dismantle everything for the purposes of making life easier for the hypothetical reader in this case?

I don’t think anyone notices this, but a tag I’ve been using in the past few months is “I’m going back to the start”, mostly because that line got stuck in my head after I spent a night depressed listening to Coldplay’s The Scientist in a loop (yeah, it was that bad of a night).

youtube

(It was the Glee’s rendition too. It was quite a bad night).

I have gone back to the drawing board and starting all over again in terms of the character stories, motivations, and main events in the universe. But there is no “start” for me to get to. The pollens are always moving in the petri dish, you are free to peer into the microscope at anytime to see where they are now.

So I’ll just post whatever I want with clean conscience now. Well, I’ll still be wrecked with anxiety and self-doubt and self-hatred and crippling desperation for validation, but I’ll try to feel not as bad that I’m not posting A Main Novel. Everything counts, from painfully unfunny sketches to a longish comic to a 500 word story to the smut--all of these count. I’ll still try to make it as easy as possible for anyone interested in say a character to find their way around (for example, the tags are literally fixed to each post for easy access, and I’ve designed a very prominent search field in my theme for this purpose). After all, I still do fervently wish to have more readers, if not partners-in-crime who can tackle this petri dish universe with me.

Oh, I so do hope this post makes sense. It probably shows, but I have no academic training in creative or fine writing. I’ve never even taken literature in my life (and I’m the poorer for it). So all the above are really my own conjectures as I try to justify and self-validate what I am doing.

If you’ve read this far, thank you for reading. Thank you for even being here on this blog reading this. Please give me a chance to entertain you as much as I’m entertaining myself doing this.

#writing #storytelling #meta

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coneshotline · 7 years

Photo

LABOUR 1945-2010

of bennites and blairites, of infighting and shitflinging, of pretentious blurbs and italic text

here, have some really old mixes (made in about 2012 i think)...i don't even like some of the bands featured any more but i'm too lazy to change it. i actually only finished one of these the other day! so yes, only 'drowning men' has been published before but the other has been 99% complete for years now...blame those mmmm [smacks lips] depressive episodes

1945-1979 | 1979-2010

tracklist/liner notes under the cut

1945-1979

in our bedroom after the war - stars (out of the rubble)

it's us - yes, we're back again, here to see you through, 'til the day's end and if the night comes, and the night will come, well at least the war is over

lift your head and look out the window stay that way for the rest of the day and watch the time go listen! the birds sing! listen! the bells ring! all the living are dead, and the dead are all living the war is over and we are beginning

childhood memories - british sea power (1945 labour government - the new dawn)

and a little electricity won't hurt and no a little electricity won't hurt especially when we're all out of gas and coal and oil, and steel and cash but a little electricity won't hurt and no a little electricity won't hurt

against agamemnon - the mountain goats (clement attlee)

red, red, red everywhere bright red all along the thin canvas wall i stepped outside for a little air i stepped outside to get away from it all

one way - the levellers (aneurin bevan)

my father when i was younger took me up on to the hill that looks down on the city smog and above the factory spill he said, "now this is where i come when i wanted to be free" but he never was in his lifetime, but these words stuck with me

the velocity of saul at the time of his conversion - okkervil river (an unceremonious defeat)

the audience is tired, "we've had enough fire, we're entering the age now of ice" and i, feeling older, pull off to the shoulder and wonder, with my head in my hands, should i call my wife

and say "enough 'you and i,' enough of 'the fight' enough of 'prevail' or 'walk in the light' while the angels stood by i got high as a kite too tired to smile or know that i'm right

machine - regina spektor (hugh gaitskell)

i count all my blessings i have friends in high places and i'm upgraded daily all my wires without traces

hooked into machine

we were wasted - the leisure society (bevanites)

and from the flat above the square we watch our comrades bare their teeth, their souls, their flesh

we were wasted son we were wasted all on the ride from the nightclub to our drive all the way we sang

the pioneers - tunng (bloc party cover) (gaitskellites)

if it can be broke then it can be fixed if it can be fused then it can be split it's all under control

if it can be lost then it can be won if it can be touched then it can be turned all you need is time

so here we are reinventing the wheel i'm shaking hands with a hurricane it's a colour that i can't describe it's a language i can't understand ambition tearing out the heart of you carving lines into you dripping down the sides of you

we will not be the last

easy lucky free - bright eyes (the disarmament debate)

i set my watch to the atomic clock i hear the crowd count down 'til the bomb gets dropped i always figured that there’d be time enough i never let it get me down, but i can’t help it now

weeping willow - the hush sound (deaths and rebirth)

there will be a tomorrow the sun will light a sea of sorrow tonight it set and took our friend if i could do one thing, i'd bring him back snow won't stick to the weeping willows

maybe, this time - ok go (harold wilson)

you've spent your entire life quick-tongued and always right hasn't being right just let you down?

soft revolution - stars (1964 labour government - hopes and dreams)

we are here to save your life the fool, the drunk, the child, and his wife

we are here to take the blame to take the taunts and lift the shame

and after changing everything they couldn't tell we couldn't sing

joan of arc - arcade fire (barbara castle)

you had a vision they couldn't see so they put you down but everything that you said would happen it came around and they're the ones that put you down 'cause they got no heart but i'm the one that will follow you you're my joan of arc

speed the collapse - metric (devaluation of the pound)

every warning we ignored, drifting in from distant shores the wind presents a change of course, a second reckoning of sorts

hope on fire - vienna teng (the workers united)

gotta fight gotta strike 'cause there's no turning away from what you don’t want to know

gotta change rearrange something’s bending to break it’s just a matter of when

burning up - ladytron (born again tony benn)

i wrote a protest song about you, about you set off on the long march without you, without you

i set myself on fire without you, without you i wrote a protest song about you, about you

so many things worth burning for

sonnet - hundred waters (from 'sonnet' by percy bysshe shelley) (1974 labour government - a radical promise)

through the unheeding many he did move a splendour among shadows, a bright blot upon this gloomy scene, a spirit that strove for truth, and like the preacher found it not

white winter hymnal - fleet foxes (michael foot)

i was following the pack all swallowed in their coats with scarves of red tied 'round their throats to keep their little heads from falling in the snow and i turned 'round and there you go and michael, you would fall and turn the white snow red as strawberries in the summertime

half day closing - portishead (the counterattack)

underneath the faded sun the silent sum of the businessman has left us choking

dreams and belief have gone time, life itself goes on

the last living rose - pj harvey (the failed referendum)

goddamn europeans take me back to beautiful england and the gray, damp filthiness of ages and battered books and fog rolling down behind the mountains on the graveyards and dead sea-captains

past the thames river, glistening like gold hastily sold for nothing, nothing

if it is growing - fanfarlo (wilson resigns)

your memory's failing your eyes are like rocks and i can see you on the floor of your box

you've got answers in everyone is electric circuits and that's all there is

then here's the irony no one will know if it's tomorrow or today that you go

caliber - wintersleep (jim callaghan)

you drive the exact speed limit keep of a track of your mile listening to radio music smiling when everyone else smiles you should take a beating willing do it in the name of the cause do it for the feeling that one day maybe you can be your own boss maybe get a beautiful woman get a fat piece of land get a couple of kids a prototypical civilian housing towards the future mining towards the sun you keep your caliber loaded no one's gonna fuck this up

electioneering - radiohead (the loan)

it's just business, cattle prods and the imf i trust i can rely on your votes

beggars - bombay bicycle club (lib-lab pact)

your guard isn't on, your barriers open your words have now got the whole town waiting my army is down, my company old and leaving quiet and burned

riding a fleet of beggars and cons taking it back, it won't be long

isles - little comets (winter of discontent)

leeds screaming bristol torn belfast and hull forlorn oxford dreaming in denial with all its gleaming spires

stoke bleeding glasgow yawns dundee and cardiff mourn york breaking sheffield cries all fears are multiplied

elephant gun - beirut (vote of no confidence)

if i was young i'd flee this town i'd bury my dreams underground as did i, we drink to die, we drink tonight

take the big game down

we used to wait - arcade fire (election '79)

now our lives are changing fast hope that something pure can last

the red flag - billy bragg (to the future)

though cowards flinch and traitors sneer we'll keep the red flag flying here

1979-2010

bye bye bye - school of seven bells (the beginning of the end)

after the great flood, all washed away, i still stayed

one by one 'til there's nothing left of you one by one by one by one

you and i are a gang of losers - the dears (old labour begets new)

every single one of us is getting massacred on a frozen path fever comes to wipe us out and scratch your name off of a list

you and i are on the outside of almost everything you and i are on the other side of almost everything

red right hand - nick cave & the bad seeds (tony benn)

he's a ghost, he's a god, he's a man, he's a guru

you're one microscopic cog in his catastrophic plan designed and directed by his red right hand

life - dai (benn vs healey)

instrumental

he dreams he’s awake - stars (michael foot, landslide defeat, and the wilderness years)

sunrise, oh sunrise, when will you ever come? sunrise, oh sunrise, when will the night be gone? it won't let me go

from red to blue - billy bragg (labour, miners, and militant)

i hate the compromises life forces us to make we must all bend a little if we are not to break but the ideals you've opted out of, i still hold them to be true i guess they weren't so firmly held by you

the geese of beverly road - the national (labour's rebranding and 80s excesses)

we'll take ourselves out in the street and wear the blood in our cheeks like red roses

we're the heirs to the glimmering world

illuminated red - the accidental (kinnock and mandelson)

and illuminated red - and illuminated white instead like a red sock burning through my table; lying in my bed

oblivion - patrick wolf (kinnock and mandelson, pt. 2)

oh my stubborn son, i know that you said you need no one don't you see danger, danger, danger, headed to oblivion?

our hell - emily haines & the soft skeleton (new labour/john smith)

we're moderate, we modernize 'til our hell is a good life all we know is to forget how to do right

colouring in the black hole

overture - patrick wolf (tony blair)

it's wonderful what a smile can hide if the teeth shine bright and it's nice and wide

titan arum - foals (gordon brown)

you see assassins on the walkway home you eat yourself from bones to bones, to tongues to toes contractors nor the council can find the time to piece your head again

drowning men - fanfarlo (the new labour ouroborous)

even though the lights have changed i'm caught up in an endless loop we spend our time with drowning men, we're going to let ourselves get dragged down

do you want the truth or something beautiful - paloma faith (landslide victory)

do you want the truth or something beautiful? just close your eyes and make believe do you want the truth or something beautiful? i am happy to deceive you

destroy everything you touch - ladytron (brown and mandelson)

anything that may desert you so it cannot hurt you destroy everything you touch today destroy me this way

bright bright bright - dark dark dark (blair, to mandelson)

you always cared for me, that was easy enough to see you always cared for me, and i pushed you in the dark and i wanted to tell you, i wanted to tell you but i lie, i lie, oh i lie, i lie i hurt myself, i hurt myself nearly as much as i hurt you

you and whose army - radiohead (blairites and brownites)

come on, come on, you think you drive me crazy well, come on, come on, you and whose army you and your cronies

masters of war - bob dylan (iraq, pt. 1)

you fasten all the triggers for the others to fire then you set back and watch

celebration guns - stars (iraq, pt. 2)

desert wind and a perverse desire to win history buried in shame

then the next day, how will you know your enemy? by their colour or your fear? one by one we can cage them in your freedom make them all disappear

my hands grow darker every day

claws off - margot and the nuclear so and sos (blair and brown)

if you wanna go, get lost if you wanna stay, shut up

wine red - the hush sound (brown takes over)

the sea is wine red, this is the death of beauty the doves have died, the lovers have lied

monster love - goldfrapp (brown and mandelson, redux)

i never thought i would return to be consumed by you again

everything comes around bringing us back again here is when we start and where we end

weekend away - tunng (the end)

wander through the wreckage all is said and done faces dance in the light

forget those days, they've gone

mykonos - fleet foxes (david miliband and ed miliband)

and you will go to mykonos with a vision of a gentle coast and a sun to maybe dissipate shadows of the mess you made

when out walking, brother, don't you forget it ain't often that you'll ever find a friend

#it took ages to write this up lmao #as for whether i'll do a 2010-onwards sequel...let's wait and see what the next election brings first :))))

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