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horse-girl-anthy · 1 year

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Pseudo-Incest in Revolutionary Girl Utena

while RGU contains actual incest between blood-related brothers and sisters, there are also relationships between characters who are not blood related, yet behave both romantically and familially towards each other. I believe that these pseudo-incestuous dynamics add an important layer to the themes of the work.

the most obvious pseudo-incestuous relationship in the show is between Nanami and Tsuwabuki.

although not blood related, there are many similarities between this dynamic and other incestuous couples in the show. most importantly, role confusion: although he is not her brother, Tsuwabuki wants to be; and although he is younger than Nanami, he wants to be her older brother. yet, when he approaches Nanami, this desire somehow warps into him being her "boyfriend," or more accurately, her servant.

Tsuwabuki is the youngest of all the characters, unable to understand the meaning of his interest in Nanami. at this age, the foundation of a child's life is their family, and they are likely to understand all relationships in terms of family dynamics. thus, when young people begin to develop their sexuality and enter into the world of adult relationships, confusion is bound to follow.

there is also an apparent draw to these confused dynamics. Ikuhara has discussed how in fiction, incestuous romance relies on the myth that “blood relationships are eternal.” by portraying both blood-related siblings who seek eternity in each other's arms, and non-related characters who blend roles, RGU is able to examine more deeply the dynamics which motivate incest.

Mikage's feelings for Tokiko and Mamiya are up for debate, but in my view, they aren't as simple as "romantic interest," in either case. rather, I would argue that he becomes fixated on them because of their relationship to each other.

Mikage is a lonely individual, an outsider with no significant relationships, family or otherwise. upon witnessing the tragedy of this little family, the sister's true care for her brother, the brother's gratitude and sad resignation, he is entranced. what Mikage is seeking is a family, and this comes out in romantic obsession with both siblings.

Utena is similar; as an orphan, she has no family dynamics through which to understand the world, and her desire for family is easily manipulated. she views Akio and Anthy as the ideal siblings, enjoying watching them interact in much the same way as Mikage liked to spend time with Mamiya and Tokiko. Akio is ready to take full advantage of her naivete.

in the final arc of RGU, Utena pseudo-joins the Anthy-Akio family, with all the baggage that entails. examining Akio's pattern of predation, it's as if he's trying to make everyone he meets into another Anthy--a younger sibling he can control and sleep with. thus, his relationship with Utena is pseudo-incestuous. it's my contention, as well, that Utena and Anthy develop a sisterly relationship in the show, as they live under the roof of the same patriarch.

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in his privacy files, lead writer Enokido stated that the prince's appeal is related to dependency, which "is a most serious matter for a mammal that cannot survive for several years without dependency after it is ejected from the mother’s body at birth." thus, rather than taking a moralistic stance, the creators of RGU understood that struggles with role confusion and dependency are natural parts of human development. however, Enokido also wrote, "people who are in love for real would not be chasing after the image of a prince."

pseudo-incest isn't just the result of a desire to have a family; it's a result of the erosion of the boundaries between individuals, the grasping after certainty, the drive to force closeness with others for one's own benefit. Tsuwabuki put his own self-image over Nanami's actual safety, all while claiming to care about her. Mikage wanted to be a part of Tokiko and Mamiya's family so badly that he tore everything apart at the first sign of trouble. and Akio is immature to the point that he can't conceive of a relationship not based on patriarchal, familial power. notably, when Utena and Anthy become true lovers in Adolescence, the family angle is dropped and Akio is no longer around to muddy the waters. whatever real love looks like, it isn't people replicating their own family dynamics eternally, and it won't be found in the chains of dependence.

#rgu #commentary #this essay is specific to RGU btw other Ikuhara works are different on this issue #i think i should have included Miki/Anthy/Kozue in this #maybe i'll do a separate post for them #theyre p straightforward tho. mostly

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rabarbarzcukrem · 11 months

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Incest in Utena

(warning: long.

...and probably incohesive)

So, I have once encountered an opinion that Revolutionary Girl Utena doesn't take a definitive anti-incest stance. This person argued that while there are abusive and unhealthy relationships in the show, their toxicity doesn't stem from them being incestuous, but from the abuse itself. So in their opinion, incest wasn't presented as being directly related to abuse in Utena.

And I disagree. I think that to ignore and overlook the incestuous elements in Utena, to say that they simply happened to be that way with no purpose and connection to be made to their abusive nature, is to do a great disservice to the creators and the show itself. For a series that is so complex in its ambiguity and usage of metaphors, that crafts its symbolism so deliberately, to simply put such a major factor into the story without intention of a deeper reading is just... extremely unlikely?

I think familial dynamics play a crucial part in relations between characters. When in comes to the Kaoru siblings, for example, the central point of their obsession with each other is their shared childhood, and the unique bond between them, on the account of them being twins.

It's also interesting how often the show blurs the lines between romantic interest and familial love. Kozue's possessiveness over her brother, which at first glance resembles jealousy, can also be read as a deep longing for Miki's understanding and affection that she used to get when they were children. Her brother is fixated on his idealized vision of her, perfect and pure. His distaste for her sexual relations with other men also comes off as a desire to keep her to himself - which may lead to an incestuous interpretation. Their unhealthy fixation on the past stems from a desire to restore the special connection that they lost when they started growing up, even though its perfection may have not existed in the first place. The innocent world of their youth, where they were free of worries and completely compatible. They share a deep longing for closeness with each other, but the fact that they grew up into very different people, whose worldviews are in conflict, makes it impossible for them to regain it. I think it could be also quite useful to take their parents into the account - whose separation and cold treatment of their children played a part into shaping the tight connection between the two siblings. They are the closest two people can be, they share everything - their room, the milkshakes, their parents, their blood, their memories and history. They are (to each other) the only person that could ever understand what the other went (and is going) through. And yet they don't. Their siblinghood and kinship is the very basis of their relationship and it could have never become this intense if they had not been twins.

The lack of love from the parents being the factor that brings the two siblings closer together, is a phenomenon that also occurs in Nanami and Touga's storyline. The girl has become thoroughly dependent on her brother and has built her entire identity and personhood around being his sister, which starts falling apart the moment she finds out they aren't blood related. This stems from the concept prevalent in the whole series - that familial relationships are fundamentally superior to chosen ones. This notion is supposedly true because of the fact that blood relationships are something one is born into - they are stronger, natural, and eternally binding. It's not difficult to notice how easily this belief can be used to diminish the meaning of abuse in the family and prevent the victim from pursuing escape. And it is used that way, both in the show, as well as in real life.

Nanami is aware of how insignificant the girls Touga dates are to him, and has accepted his way of evaluating people as her own. She thinks of them as vermins, after all. But while he can play with their feelings and discard them one after the other, she will always be his sister, which grants her a right to Touga's affection and a place by his side for the rest of their lives.

However, the fact that she feels the need to assert her superiority over other girls so frequently and violently clearly shows that the relationship between the siblings is far from stable and points to Nanami's deep insecurities, resulting from her brother's manipulation. He deliberately witholds affection from Nanami as a form of control and purposefully maintains the ambiguity of their relationship. This specific type of emotional abuse she faces can only happen if they are siblings and is very closely related to the pseuo-incestous nature of their bond, resulting from the very problematic environment that the two have grown up in and Nanami's feelings being twisted and used by Touga to his advantage.

Nanami prides herself in being "in love" with her brother only as long as she doesn't realize what that entails. The moment she recognizes the implications of her behavior and sees the consequences of a real incestuous relationship, it immediately becomes clear that this is not what she has ever desired. But it is her separation from Touga that allows her to do that, and to wonder about who she is and what is it that she really wants.

And so we move onto the most abusive incestuous relationship in the series, which is thought to be the one every other relationship in the show mirrors in some way... Akio and Anthy's. This example is the primary reason why I think that omitting the connection between incest and abuse means misunderstanding one of the core elements of the show. The very reason Anthy keeps on enduring her torment is the fact that Akio/Dios is her brother. He's her only family - the one person always tied to her, that has seen all of her, that knows and has experienced what she had done - and will not leave her.

The knowledge that Akio will always be her brother is a curse - but a comforting one. It absolves Anthy of having to experience the new, which is scary. After all, a coffin is a cage and a prison, but is it not safe? She stays both because of this resignation and fear, and because she holds onto the sweet memory of a person who used to love her, and who she loved in return. One could argue that Anthy perceives herself as deserving of this suffering simply because of being a witch - but upon a closer look it becomes obvious that Anthy is a witch...because she is Akio's sister. It's outright stated in the play performed by the shadow girls that the reason why she could not become his princess is the fact that she's related to him. We are shown later, in the true version of events, that Anthy locked Dios away out of love and care for her brother, but that becomes twisted into selfishness and jealousy in the play. This is also a way to shift the blame for Anthy's abuse onto her - "Isn't this what you wanted?"

Again, we encounter the phenomenon of the line between platonic affection and romantic desire being extremely thin. However, it's not entirely clear if this is simply a way to visualize the intensity of the complicated feelings between the characters, and to obscure the true meaning and nature of them by symbolism (as Utena often does) or something that is supposed to be read as a commentary on the omnipresent sexualization in Ohtori/society. Perhaps it it both.

And now... How does Utena fit into all of this? She is an orphan - a fact that is frequently overlooked and treated as a "protagonist thing" that makes a simple yet impactful backstory. But it is crucial to Utena's personal journey and the way she perceives Akio and Anthy's relationship. She doesn't have any close family that we know of, no point of reference to what healthy familial bonds look like. This is the main reason she stays ignorant and oblivious of Anthy's abuse for so long.

When it comes to Akio's advances and her own feelings towards him, it induces a certain sense of wrongness and unease in her (although she explains it to herself using incorrect reasons: Akio's engagement status, and not the massive power and age imbalance between them). But the way Anthy is treated and her strange behavior goes unquestioned by Utena, as she's always able to explain it by thinking of it as a part of a perfectly normal sibling relationship.

A lot more can be said about incest in Utena - its role in the system of Ohtori, or how gender and age play into it (I haven't even mentioned Tsuwabuki...) But it seems evident to me that the familal dynamics are inherently tied to the toxicity and abuse that occurs in the relationships discussed. It is purposeful. All instances of incest in Utena are shown to be harmful and this element is never excused or glossed over.

Because this contrast between blood bonds and the bonds one builds (for Anthy, between Akio and Utena) is crucial to understanding the show, and is precisely the thing that makes Utena's queerness so revolutionary. Instead of compliance and conformity, it signifies defiance, choice, agency and freedom. Akio's control is built upon the notion that he's the only one able to accept Anthy for the terrible witch she truly is, but this is not true, and Utena proves that. She experiences cruelty at Anthy's hands, she's stabbed and betrayed by her, and yet doesn't give up on her. Anthy can only stop being afraid of the world beyond Akio once she sees that it is worth it, that there is a person out there, waiting for her. That she is not forever doomed by being Akio's sister, and the outside world holds hope and love for her.

#don't treat this as some deep dive #these are just a few thoughts #rgu #revolutionary girl utena #also I love how Ikuharas commentary touches on this subject #I just think it's sad that the criticism of rgu is often 'it contains incest' when the way it shows it is so complex and worth analyzing #like. it may sound weird but the incest part is important !#moje

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piejumper · 2 years

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Did a reread of chainsaw man to solidify my thoughts on part 1 and more specifically to get a better view of my problems with it. tw for themes and discussions of incest and sexualization of minors and spoilers for chainsaw man, long post below the readmore

Reread chainsaw man part 1 to refresh my thoughts on it and approach it again after the initial feelings if being so taken in with the spectacle and horror of it have faded and I think I've settled a little on why I like it and also why I don't like it, because of the more glaring flaws it has and why they're probably gonna explode into controversy later.

One of the things about it that still make me uncomfortable in a serious way is its approach to sensuality in regards to the relationships denji forms that aren't sexual in relation to characters like power and specifically how it's depicted visually, and how the Manga as a whole has a serious issue with sexualizing minors in a way that I feel the narrative doesn't justify enough to clearly land what (i think) is its messages and how it damages how its trying to frame the way in which denji is exploited by the women around him because of his traumatic and neglected childhood and warped preception of love as a result.

Specifically with how the imagery in the later half of chainsaw man when denji is supposed to be taking care of power as like a sibling the author seems to exploit the fact that they aren't related to insert a lot of really uncomfortably sensual positioning where it didn't need to be for the message of denji not viewing the relationships he has with her as needing to be as a physically romantic one either.

And while it's not actually bad that this approach was used removed from context as a way of showing denji's relationship with a girl he lives with that he met only recently in his life that hes come to care for, it's the retroactive recontextuallized perception later that denji and power were meant to be viewed as siblings that I feel damages the integrity of the moments because fujimoto has a skeevy past when it comes to how he depicts brother and sibling relationships in his other work and his seeming fascination with themes of incest in his previous works like fire punch and one one-off he did that's escaping me.

I don't feel he dose a good job of carefully exploring the messy and terrible complexities of incestuous relationships to do the subject matter the justice it deserves for people hurt by them without depicting it in a fetishistic and voyeuristic light. And that extends to how he chose to depict the other exploitative relationships involving women in the Manga esp the ones that are minors.

And his use of sexualized imagery in that regard i feel also fails to not be an inherently fetishistic and objectifying display in places where that display doesn't add anything or enough to the story in a way that justifies it. I like the story fujimoto told with the elements he included outside of these visual elements, but his usage of serious subject matter in ways that fail to not actually avoid or condem the incredibly fucked up implications they have and it makes his work feel surface level and exploitative in itself and hurts the kind of people irl that the story itself is supposed to be about and the horrible relationships hes supposed to be exploring.

It could be argued that these are problems more endemic to Manga as a whole but in this case that the extent fujimoto takes these kinds of things I feel far extends past what's the norm and also regardless of conventions are, are things that should be criticized and are examples of a more core problem with his work.

Reze is the primary example of this outside of power that comes to my mind when I think of this because in a few ways the manner in which she's shown in an objectifying light do make sense because she's meant to be denji's first real shot with someone like him and in the context of denji thinking about her in the way a horny teenager dose it makes sense he would be thinking of her in that light, but in outside material and the way this is visually approached in the manga reze is fetishized despite the fact that she's supposed to be around the same age as denji who is *16* in cannon at that point, despite the fact that we never get an actual answer about how old she is, making it so the Manga dances on the line when it comes to actually crossing the line.

It's hard trying to describe the way that this occurs because while I was reading I was seeing how the ways these moments happen most of the time can have deeper meanings that do reinforce the fact that what you're watching happen to denji is fucked up and exploitative and also why denji is doing the things he dose, and I do think that csm overall dose keep in line with that idea, but as fujimoto pushes that envelope he crosses the line in a number of areas that make it feel like cms is caught in between trying to be a story that engages with fucked up subject matter in a critical way, with Being a voyeuristic spectacle for that fucked up subject matter and that really sucks.

Tl;dr I don't think fujimoto did a good job with his approach to sexuality in csm, it being voyeuristic and objectifying with the serious subject matter he engaged with in certain areas

#csm spoilers #chainsaw man spoilers #tw incest #tw sexualization of minors #i do like chainsaw man because i feel like fujimoto capture lightning in a bottle in a way by trying to actually discuss the fucked up #dynamics that he shows in csm and why they're things that are fundamentally horrible to an audience that sees them fetishized regularly #in the media they consume and while doing so told a touching story of a guy trying to learn how to live a normal life #after coming from a broken home and the messy and akward way that looks like from a person who has no frame of refrence for what thats like #but its hard to talk about those things if i dont acknowledged the ways it fucks up in that regard

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ladyhindsight · 2 years

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I feel that book stans who say "Jace and Clary were not ACTUALLY related!" miss the point completely.

Let's say I was told that a guy I just met and got a crush on is actually my brother. First of all, my crush would instantly disappear. Second, even when it turns out that he's not actually my brother, my memory of him woul be tainted: on a romantic level I would always associate him with that sense of repulsion and wrongness.

Clary and Jace never feel repulsion. And any thought of wrongness simply vanishes as soon as they discover they're not related.

Are we meant to believe that "deep down, on a biological level, Clary and Jace knew they were not related! they felt they were made for each other, even when the world told them the opposite!" (actual quote from a book stan).

Like, no? Biology is not a super power? Clary's genes aren't telling her "hell no this guy is a complete stranger! word!"

Clare and her stans go on and on about how tormented Clace's love story is, how torn they are between doing what's right and doing what's pleasurable (which, again, 🤮🤮🤮 I could never associate pleasure with someone I suspect might be related to me). But in the books it never feels that way.

There's angst, sure. But they never hesitate to kiss and get all over each other anyway. So the angst is just empty and used to fill page space smh.

And the people around them? Who are supposed to talk some sense into them? And try to separate them? Do absolutely nothing?

I know that Clare grew up an only child, so I can understand having an interest in exploring siblings dynamics.

But there's a big difference between that and an incest fetish, which she definitely has (only book stans could argue otherwise).

Years ago, when TDA was in the works, she mentioned having an autistic step-brother, which I think she acquired in adult age.

1) Thinking about that makes me hate her portrayal of an autistic character even more (Ty not liking to look people in the eye but magically being able to do so with Kit because LoVe; Julian being such a martyr and a saint for taking care of someone affect by the Terrible Disease That Is Autism; Ty being obsessed with Sherlock Holmes (incidentally Cumberbatch's Sherlock - who was heavily coded as autistic - was at the peak of its popularity at the time... what a coincidence) and computers (because an autistic person has to have something going on for them, right? They have to be good with numbers!); Ty being very childish, pranking and laughing at Mark, when every autistic person I know - me included - gets SO uncomfortable anytime someone is made fun of (because that's something that happens to US all the time, and autistic people can have empathy and compassion and sympathy for other people, Cassandra);

2) Not even having a step-sibling made her reconsider her fetish.

And ok, fine, she has a fetish and wants to write about it in her series for teenagers? It's her right. I hate it, but it's her right.

But damn, the way the fandom goes about it does make me worry.

And I don't mean people writing fanfics; again, that's their right (some do it to cope with past trauma, too, so I can't judge).

It's the people writing huge rants about how the concept of "relatives" is a construct, and "all non-human animals have no qualms about it" and "as long as two people are consenting adults there's nothing wrong with it".

These people feel nothing but validation when the only people criticizing incest in Clare's books are the vapid, insufferable villains.

Big time. Clary’s leaps in intuition, knowing Jace was meant for her and being with Sebastian was something inherently wrong, just serve this narrative that it didn’t matter that they believed to be related to each other because deep down they knew.

No. Just no. No one reacts to this situation realistically. Clary shows repulsion once the truth has been revealed to her by Jocelyn, but until then she just pines after Jace like there is no factors present to do exactly the opposite.

It was a tormented love story in a sense that it was very torturous to read. Theirs is not an obstacle people can relate with. Their choice between right and pleasure doesn’t come off as that when the narrative gives them every opportunity to choose the latter.

Clary and Jace are free to drool over each other because the people around them don’t care. They don’t talk about it, they don’t express any feelings about it, nothing. Isabelle is bordering on accepting it, Simon doesn’t care because he can see how much it hurts Jace to love Clary. Alec is barely even present when it comes to this subject. So how exactly is their chances of being together been hindered by this when no one gives two shits about it?

Clare wants to represent autistic people with Ty but at the same time fails to create a character consistent to a disorder he has. It’s also noteworthy that Ty’s character was more so utilized to show how amazing and all-giving Julian is.

Over and over again Clare only exemplifies more how little she understands siblinghood. Jace and Clary are truly the beacon to it all. And yeah, everyone has a right to write what they want, but it’s a bit alarming that the valid criticism people have given to the Clace plot line is dismissed as hate and people just not understanding such complicated love story. And then we have Sebastian and Zara who are the only ones to actually say anything about it, but the way they are written rather implies that readers are supposed to side with Clary and Jace, and that Sebastian and Zara are just big meanies.

People still don’t seem to understand the difference between portraying and fetishizing.

#Clary Fray #Jace Herondale #Anti CC #Anti Cassandra Clare #Reply

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yesods-a-purple-punk · 2 years

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This is meant to be a good faith question and not proshipper nonsense so: Aren’t In-laws different because there is no bond of blood nor is there the destruction of family ties (this applies to being adopted siblings or just being raised together) that make the action so disgusting. But there’s no such tie between in laws? (Then again, there is a case by case basis in that so idk I may be wrong.)

Here's the thing, it's morally questionable to the point it makes me uncomfortable. It runs between the line of not incest (no blood relations? maybe??), to incest (that's your wife's brother!).

But here's the thing, how much are you to apply the "oh well they aren't blood-related" to family ties? Does it mean that adopted siblings aren't considered a part of the family despite being seen as a family? Even when they grow older, one never meeting the other but knowing your relationship was always familial? Maybe Argalia and Roland get together despite that mind gymnastics, incest is and always will be, inherently abusive.

Well, ok. Whatever you believe in, whether or not you think my logic is inconclusive, it's what you decide. Here's the thing with Argalia and Roland's relationship throughout the entirety of Library of Ruina.

Throughout Argalia's run, he's doesn't see Roland as his family. He just sees him as the man that married his sister. Part of Argalia's character development (in the true ending) is that he finally accepts that Roland is a part of his family.

And you could argue that Roland never saw him as family or only saw him as an obstacle to his true goal. What is true and a canon fact Roland does not like Argalia. Not only for his behavior and treatment of him but let's not forget Argalia turned scraps of his own sister (and Roland's wife) into a puppet. Don't think that'd give Roland any reason to see his brother-in-law as a perfect boyfriend.

Whatever anyone thinks, I personally don't like it. I see it as incest. I can’t stop people from shipping it. People will see the pairing as incest no matter what and still ship them (not naming names... 🍬👀) but for this reason and for my mental health I wouldn't want to risk anything I make to have something so repulsive shone in a positive light, dead dove or not.

#asks #long response

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colorisbyshe · 2 years

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Not sure if you've seen this tweet from xrjz already, but one part of their fuckery that I'm aware of is that they ship sworn brothers and they justify it by saying they aren't really brothers, which this tweet illustrates (just add the twitter dot com back to the front of the url):

/XiranJayZhao/status/1395419345497427968

Sorry for falling asleep in the middle of this. Last night was the first time melatonin actually worked for me, I legit put down my phone for a second and then fell asleep 😭

Anyways, oof. This always catches people and then slowly leads to “yeah adopted siblings aren’t incest,” “step siblings is fine,” and sometimes id they fall down the rabbit hole long enough “Oh, these long lost siblings werent raise together so it’s fine.”

When like… for me at least… “not incest on a technicality” really just… isn’t a line I need. Like I don’t need to ship something so badly I’m like “Okay, these people who were raised together and consider each other siblings aren’t incest because they aren’t bio related but also these people who are bio related but weren’t raised together also aren’t incest because there is no real power dynamic to be abused.”

When I could just… not ride that line. And, no, I’m not arguing about this. I don’t care about anyones fringe case that is technically okay or maybe absolutely okay. I don’t trust someone making broad statements about a type of family relationship jot counting as incest.

Like I’m good.

I get it, some things are more complicated and nuanced, but like… these aren’t real people who happened to be in a real nuanced situation. Y’all saw a family unit and thought “Okay, there’s nuance here so I’m still shipping.” This is not the same.

That bit isn’t aimed at anon. It’s a preemptive strike against future anons.

#incest cw

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fruk-and-usuk-soliditary · 5 years

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Why UsUk is Not Incest

Before this starts I would like to say that I have done lots of research on this topic. This will not just be me going "thEY'rE Not BRoThErs uwu I doN't HAvE EviDEncE bUt bElieVe me aNYwayS". No, I have lots of evidence for this subject, and if I did not firmly believe in this I wouldn't be sharing it. I will be taking people's arguments and stating my own view on it based on facts of this universe, as much as I can. I will also throw in some other pieces of evidence that don't exactly refute other arguments, but I feel like are important.

I am open to discussion on any of these, as long as you are respectful and are able to come up with actual evidence as so do I. In no way am I saying you have to see their relationship as non-familial or romantic at all. You are allowed to have that interpretation of their relationship, but I do say you should respect me for my interpretation of it as well. With that said, let's get on to the essay.

Argument #1

"America called England Big Brother, so that means they are brothers."

This is a common one that I see, and I understand why. However, in Japan, when you are calling someone "Big Brother" or "Big Sister", it is a term of endearment. You can say it without meaning "you are actually my brother and we are now related". And you could argue that that's not the case, however, in the manga, this fact is stated right after the panels of Baby America calling England Big Brother.

Another thing to point out is that England refuses the title of Big Brother, because he was overly flustered from the term of endearment, since he is so used to being called everyone's Little Brother.

One more thing about this argument, is that France calls himself everyone's Big Brother. And for us FrUk shippers, yes that includes me, he even calls himself England's Big Brother.

Using this argument, that would say that FrUk is incest as well, when we all know that is incorrect. Italy also calls both Spain and France Big Brother, but they are all not related. Romano certainly doesn't call either of them Big Brother (although Romano and Spain's relationship is also up to interpretation as well).

Argument #2

"England raised America, so he has to be a part of his family."

Once again, a common one I see that makes a lot of sense. However, England never really raised America. He was constantly gone, across the ocean. There are multiple times we see America completely alone and raising himself.

America has raised himself, he taught himself how to grow, and since he's a country, he grew up rapidly. When England comes back to America, he is absolutely shocked by how fast he's grown. This bit is more of an analysis since we don't know for a fact, but I feel like this shows that England was gone throughout America's development. So, while you can still easily have your opinion on this one, I don't think England raised America at all.

One more thing is the scene where England "says" they are brothers in the dub of the anime. However, that is the dub of the anime, not an official canon source. In both the sub and the manga, England never says they are brothers, and in the manga even goes as far as to say that he's more of a mentor or a boss.

Argument #3

"The Funimation poster says that England and America are brothers."

This one is super easy to debunk. This poster is in no way canon, it was made to promote the show. In this poster, we see lines that connect England and America that say they are brothers. However, there is no connection between Canada and England, or even Sealand and England. If America is considered a brother to England, then Canada very well would be as well, but there is no connection. Sealand and England are actually confirmed brothers, but they don't have that connection line. Also, Wy would be considered a relative to England and therefore Sealand, yet there is still no familial connection between them. This shows the inconsistency throughout this promotion.

Another thing to add is that this is not from Himaruya. Himaruya is the creator, and the one who has the final say in what is and isn't canon. He has made no mention of this poster, confirming or not confirming it.

Unless if it comes from the original source, or is confirmed from the original source, nothing is for sure.

Argument #4

"Colonizing equals adoption."

I've seen people say this a few times, however this is far from the truth. If colonizing meant someone adopts another, then that means France's inappropriate behavior towards Seychelles is incest or even England's potential crush on Seychelles is incest. If you want to interpret a colonization as adopting, then that's how you interpret it. However, know that it does not apply to canon.

Other Pieces of Evidence

1. Magical Strike AU

This is a piece of evidence I haven't seen many people talking about. In the Magical Strike AU, a canon AU talked about and made by Himaruya, there are only a few confirmed characters roles. This includes France, the magical girl on strike; Japan, an old man who's touring; Netherlands, a business partner; England, a businessman; and America, the son of the President of the company. In this AU, England and America do not have any familial connections what-so-ever.

Take into consideration that this is from an AU, so it can be argued as irrelevant, which is fair, but it's still something to consider.

2. America's Independence

This is a pretty controversial one, but it still needs to be addressed. During the American Revolution, America shouts "I'm no longer a child, nor your little brother." A lot of people either argue this is America just saying that to state his independence and that they are still related.

However, that would only be true if they were mortal and human. These characters are countries that live forever (until they are killed through the heart/their capital is taken over). They do not have the same meanings for different terms that we do.

America stating that he is no longer England's little brother means that he is literally no longer his little brother. This would obviously not work in real life, but this is not real life. They are not human beings who comprehend things like family the same as we do.

The only characters who have a confirmed family connection (in modern day) is Germany and Prussia, Veneziano and Romano, Iceland and Norway, America and Canada, Netherlands/Belgium/Luxembourg, and England and his three older brothers including Sealand as his little brother.

America never addresses England as his brother in modern day, nor does England. Within modern day, they do not consider each other to be brothers. This is able to occur because they aren't human. They don't have the same thought process as others.

Conclusion

If you don't see England and America as romantic, and see them as familial, that is more than okay. However, recognize that shippers of UsUk don't consider them as family.

Shippers do not look at England and America and think "UwU they are brothers so I ship them". Most shippers ship them because of their connection and relationship dynamic.

All we ask for is to be treated with respect. Hating others for shipping something is ridiculous. There is more to a person than a ship.

#hetalia #usuk #aph england #aph hetalia #aph #hetalia england #axis powers hetalia #axis powers ヘタリア #hetalia axis powers #aph america #hetalia america #aph usuk #hetalia usuk #ukus #aph ukus #hetalia ukus #i'm adamant about my beliefs but i'm still scared to post this but we'll see what happens

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spaceshipkat · 5 years

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It really bothers me how incest gets so swept under the rug when it's w/ adopted siblings or "tHeY aReN't ReAlLy SiBlInGs!!!" cause like,, when you're an adult, the precedent that they're your sibling doesn't just suddenly go away when you realize you aren't biologically related. There's a totally different relationship dynamic between "best friends w/ a sibling relationship until they get older" and "this is my brother/sister, period". (1/2)

To know that other YA authors are endorsing it, and there have even been books based around that concept for ~angst~ (Th/ousand/th F/loor by K Mc/Gee) is honestly disturbing. Incest isn’t good, whether it’s under the guise of siblings by blood or by relationship. It’s just horrible that people don’t realize how destructive this is. People stay your siblings, by blood or by relation, even when a plot twist hurtles in. You can’t throw away the years built up with that person and that relation (2/2

Sorry for the rant, it just reminded me of a situation like that going on and it made me remember. I don’t know whether you agree or not, but thank you for still having an open place to talk about issues in books

never apologize for rants! i’m always happy to receive them. and it makes me really fucking happy when you guys come to me to talk about whatever’s bothering you, bc i’m glad i get to be that safe space for you 💕

anyway, yes, i think there are two main camps in this situation: those arguing it’s fine bc jon/sa are adopted siblings, and those arguing that you can ship whoever you want bc the characters aren’t real people. the second camp of authors seem to think that teens aren’t aware of what authors say on social media, that teens don’t have goodreads accounts, and that teens don’t give a fuck about things such as incest. based on some of the interactions i’ve watched happen on twitter (thus far, i haven’t seen either of the two main authors in question respond to any of the teens who’ve replied) it doesn’t seem like they’re even willing to admit they 1) might be wrong about anything they’re arguing, such as teens’ involvement on social media, or 2) that they really need to stop before they dig themselves any deeper. incest is a verrrrrry touchy subject for a lot of people, for many different reasons (as has come up on my blog in the past few days), but the way these authors are going about arguing it just...isn’t right, imo. instead of saying that incest is or isn’t wrong and stating their case/reasoning, they’re arguing that it’s fine to ship who you want (in this case, adopted siblings who were raised as brother and sister and are, in fact, cousins) and that anyone who argues otherwise is just being patronizing to teenagers--when, in fact, those very authors are the ones who are talking down to the teens they’re claiming to want to give the microphone to.

this entire fiasco has blown up in a way that probably should’ve been expected, given how YA twitter is basically a lit fuse at all times nowadays, but the authors who are fanning the fires are just acting so...blithely ignorant to the conversation going on and ignoring every single teenage reader who is replying to their tweets. it’s almost laughable in its absurdity.

#ask #anonymous #tw: incest #authors behaving badly

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jaykore · 7 years

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hi! this is a weird question but jason and tim aren't actually brothers right? like even though tim's name is time drake-wayne, did jason also take bruce's last name, before he died? they aren't related in anyway, why are people saying its incest? i'm sorry this is long, im new to shipping jaytim and it's just a bit confusing to me ! (((by the way i really love your blog!)))

hey lovely! First of all, THANK YOU. That’s really sweet, and I’m glad you’re enjoying jaytim and my blog :)

Second... not a weird question at all. It comes up all the time in the tags and unfortunately a lot of people who don’t agree with the ship make blanket statements about it being incest; that is their opinion and I’m not going to bash it. I’m going to do my best to give you the facts, and I’ll say a little something about how I interpret it. And then you can decide how you personally feel about it!

There are at least 3 versions of Jason and Tim that we have to contend with: everything pre New52 (angry Lazarus!Jay and Robin/RedRobin!Tim), New52 (NotSoAngry!Jay and ShowgirlWings!Tim), and Rebirth (RedHim!Jay and Just!Tim because we’re waiting for him to be amazing again *sad*).

Fact: In all story lines preceding New52, Jason Todd was an orphan and adopted by Bruce Wayne. Jason died at age 15. Tim Drake took up the mantle of Robin at age 13 and was subsequently orphaned and adopted by Bruce. Jason never takes the last name Wayne, and Tim does only in a professional sense (to run WE), and I believe a personal sense as well (to keep Bruce’s memory alive- see Red Robin). Tim never legally changes his name that i’m aware of.

Even in the pre52 timelines, I have never considered this to be incestuous. Jason and Tim do not know each other until Jason returns from the grave. Jay has died, thus he is legally no longer Bruce’s son, and at some point Tim becomes emancipated as well.Most importantly to me: they have never lived together or shared a childhood.

Individuals argue that ‘adopted siblings are the same as blood siblings’... I absolutely agree, when you’ve grown up with them all your life there is absolutely a familial bond. When you’ve never lived with or known each other (or been legally adopted at the same time), and one of you has been dead for a year, that is not a familial relationship. In my opinion, nothing about Jason and Tim is familial Pre52. I’m sure they each see Dick as an older brother in a sense, but not each other at all.

To be completely honest, I am baffled when people call this incest and for a lot of people (myself included), I think it just seems like a justification for ship hate.

Fact: The DC verses were retconned with the release of the New52. Jason and Tim’s origins were rewritten; Tim’s so extensively that he was actually no longer an adopted son of Bruce Wayne. His parents were both well and alive, but in protective custody, and one could argue that he was in a ‘foster’ sort of situation with Bruce. He was not however adopted. Jason’s own adoption is also foggy. Sometimes they refer to his adoption, and sometimes he and Dick are both referred to as “wards”. Once again, Jason and Tim do not know each other until after Jason has passed and risen from the grave. A lot of their anger and Jason’s jealousy has also been erased and the two work quite well together.

This is where a lot of people put their shipping goggles on. These versions of Jason and Tim are prime shipping fodder imo. There is no ambiguity as to whether or not they are siblings, and they get along fantastically well. For someone who has had no interaction with any of the comics pre-52, you wouldn’t even think twice about calling this ‘incest’ because its not, at all.

Fact: Tim and Jason are still unrelated as of Rebirth, as it is meant to be a continuation of New52 to try and clean up some of that kerfuffle. Ergo, not bros.

So nonnie, that is a bit of a read, and while I have shared my views, I’ve also presented the facts as clearly as I understand them.

I’m excited that you’re digging JayTim, and I’m also stoked that you’re asking questions to try and understand their relationship better, that’s great! There’s a lot of policing in this fandom, and I would wish for everyone to be able to make informed decisions on whether or not they can or cannot support something.

That being said, whether or not you can continue to like JayTim is totally up to you. There are other issues that people raise concerning the pairing, and if you’d like to talk about those you’re more than welcome to reach out to me. Either anonymously or via PM (I’m chill I promise!). I love these two together, but I promise to do my best to give you a fair view of the situation and if you like, share why I personally continue to ship them. Your views and your decisions though are entirely your own!

Thank you for asking me also! I’m always up to talk about these babes any which way

here is another post I recently wrote concerning their relationship if you’re interested!

#jaykore talks #jaytim #anyone have anything else to add?#Anonymous

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