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deargodhelpmeaaa · 4 months

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Evidence that Krerdly will/could in fact become canon

So usually when I ship something Im like yea this is not going to be in the actual thing but I always see other people all like "PLEASE LET THIS BE IN THE ACTUAL THING" and I genuinely can't tell if they're joking or not like do we actually care that much are we stupid do we need mental help

Anyway here's my evidence as to why it will (could) be(come) canon because fuck you.

Berdly saying he has a crush on Susie is extremely unreliable, as he just kind of randomly decides he has one out of the blue and it's obvious she doesn't like him back and he's stupid very smart and terrible great at reading the room and therefore thinks she does anyway.

the following dialogue is after the queen battle:

(some trivia: dextrose refers to a type of sugar, I think our little boy was trying to sound clever with a big word and didn't use it right, or he meant to say "dexterous" which he would ALSO be using wrong btw, as it means "clever" and right now he wants to be stupid which makes him calling them clever out of character. )

There's his first lot of dialogue. Then interact with him again and he says this shit

His reasoning?

There's a lot to unpack here.

Berdly tells Kris he must turn them down because he thinks he likes Susie and is under the assumption that she likes him back. Nowhere is it implied that he is not actually interested in Kris; it is only indicated that right at this moment Berdly's sights are set on Susie because there are things about her that he really admires, and so his interest is set on her. Notice how he refers to his life as a VN. That means visual novel. He sees himself as a man amongst a variety of love interests, and believes he can only choose one, as is the case with a typical visual novel, which indicates that Berdly thinks he is monogamous (I say "thinks" due to the popular theory that he might not truly desire romance at all and just claims to since that is what he currently equates any form of intimacy to). Among the people he has marked as love interests are Susie and Kris, and so therefore he is not necessarily uninterested in Kris. He sees them as a potential match, but they are not the one he's focused on.

He says Kris is being insistent about something. While this could be him misinterpreting them showing concern for him for romantic affection, as he does have this weird fixation on romance, this line of dialogue is actually really weird for a variety of reasons if we really look at it.

He says that Kris is being "insistent" on something, and that he "must turn them down." While it is easy to assume interacting with him caused Berdly to think that showing him additional concern by talking to him means you like him romantically, you must also consider the fact that throughout the game Kris is implied to say things on their own, but we ourselves never actually get to see what they are saying. Take for example here:

I'm certain this is the case with non cutscene moments, too, where you interact with NPCs and stuff. I can only really think off the top of my head to how even when u interact with one of the swords in ur inventory Noelle tells you to stop hitting you with it, and also there are times where Kris is moving on their own despite the soul not having wandered off like in the offscreen Ralsei dialogues, plus there's Kris removing their soul sometimes which always follows us controlling them... essentially they DO still have some control over themselves even when we are controlling THEM and they can still talk on their own, which I don't see how that doesn't include interacting with NPCs outside of battle or cutscenes. I just am too lazy to open the game up again and scour it for more NPC's responding to something we didn't hear Kris say, so instead I gave you an elaborate explanation of how Kris works and it works just as well so fuck you. But feel free to look for examples of NPC's outside of battle or cutscenes responding to something Kris probably said anyway and rb this with your findings that would be great.

Back to Berdly turning Kris down. Both of Berdly's dialogues are in response to something. This second line in particular looks really suspect, and makes me believe Kris may have actually done something overt in order to cause Berdly's focus to shift towards romance, and the reason Ralsei never says anything about it is so we don't notice that our character acted on their own- as he is definitely judging them for saying that LOL. I just don't see how it makes sense for him to just say that unprompted (granted, he is a weirdo, but in a cute innocent sort of way, and not the perverted incel freak some fans make him out to be but); it just feels to overtly a reply to something said to him than it does to him SIMPLY being interacted with.

Counterargument for this second point now: it's very possible that when we interact with Berdly, Kris did something to just comfort him, like put their hand on his shoulder or something like that, and them doing it more than once causes Berdly to mistaken the gesture for a romantic advance, and I was just over analyzing it because I ship them and I relate to Berdly which means I'm a nerdy idiot genius just like him. This still does not negate point number one, though.

3. Berdly is not disgusted by the prospect of romance with Kris. His reasoning for turning them down is because he's focused on Susie; nowhere is it said that it is due to their gender or appearance or anything like that at all. I assumed he was doing some hetero-normative thing with how Noelle and Susie are both girls and he's a boy but Kris lacking a gender and him not being like "eww no" to them indicates to me that he wouldn't necessarily mind something queer going on.

I want to look at the visual novel thing some more because I've honest to god never seen anyone else talk about it.

I think that he sees Kris, Susie and Noelle as potential partners. He's not interested in Noelle himself and says that he only pretends to be because he thinks she is. It's obvious he thinks that if he were to not, she might leave him, as this romantic interest he thinks she has in him is what he believes is the reason why she even tolerates him in the first place. Were she to ask him out (she wouldn't; this is from his perspective), Berdly undoubtedly would say yes, even if it isn't really what he wants, because what he really wants is to keep her around since he literally relies on her for his studies. He confesses to not liking her in chapter 2 because he wants her to know that his sights are set on Susie and doesn't want that to break her heart.

Susie is a new one, as he suddenly finds himself admiring her and confuses this admiration for her for romantic affection. He is undoubtedly going to continue trying to pursue her until he is inevitably not only shut down but learns about her and Noelle.

Lastly, there's Kris, who, besides Noelle, is one of Berdly's only friends. While he is their rival, he does show a lot of affection for them throughout the game, even back in chapter 1. In the library he tells Kris that he was worried about them.

He also offers them a random discount on the overdue book just really randomly, which is so sweet of him honestly. There is a layer of pretentiousness, smugness, and condescending-ness throughout his dialogue in the library, which is just him trying to prove himself better than Kris.

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It is implied/shown that he sees a lot of potential in them. He refers to Kris as the third smartest student in class, which, despite seeming like an insult at first, is still a bit of a compliment in its own way. Talking down to Kris is sort of a defense mechanism for him. I think this is displayed really well in the scene below:

He does, however, really care about Kris at the end of the day and it's clear he values them. I really want to bring up the scene where you give him the present. First, he doesn't even EXPECT you to be gifting him, and walks into the scene assuming you're not on his side, taking it personally when he sees you with Susie. Then, when you do give him the present, he's initially shocked, then genuinely really happy and appreciative of it, to the point that he kind of almost drops the snarky attitude. I also really want to note that he doesn't even say thank you. Like he doesn't even know how to react. Poor guy.

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Throughout chapter 2, we see that the two of them have played video games together, that Berdly trusts Kris enough to want to do puzzles with them while he's struggling to do them alone in the mansion, and so yeah, it can be concluded that despite Berdly's attempts to push Kris away and prove himself as their superior, he does genuinely care about them a lot.

So, Krerdly.

Krerdly.

The only thing getting in the way right now is that Berdly is focused on Susie. Though he might think what happened was a dream in the pacifist route, he probably is going to be fixated on her both there and in the neutral route due to now assuming he has a crush on her and her liking him back; he doesn't realize that he's mistaking his admiration for and desire to get closer to her for a crush. What will kill this for him is when he finally gets to see her with Noelle and realizes neither of them liked him romantically. He'd probably then turn to Kris and ask them if they liked him, since they're the one other person on that list of love interests I just did. And regardless of whether or not you say yes, he'd still be left thinking about them a little bit, and start to seek intimacy with them since Susie and Noelle are now fixated on eachother, and Berdly thinks he needs romance so he's looking towards someone who could potentially bring him that as well: his close friend who is still single.

And then you can date him and yay Krerdly real.

That's my theory.

Goodnight.

#krerdly #kris deltarune #kris dreemur #kris dreemurr #berdly #analysis #deltarune #deltarune analysis #deltarune chapter 1 #deltarune chapter 2 #susie deltarune #krispy chicken #suselle #noelle holiday #ralsei #theory #speculation #shipping #Youtube

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patchwork-crow-writes · 6 months

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Thoughts on Kris x Ralsei, continued

(this is a continuation of my first post on this subject, creatively titled Thoughts on Kris x Ralsei. The parts all build upon each other, so it's best to read from the beginning. Here's a little TOC so you can get up to speed:

Part 1: And They Lived Happily Ever After Part 1.5: I Believe Your Choices DO Matter Part 2: A Pair of Star-Cross'd Lovers <- (You Are Here!) Part 2.5: In Another World, We Could Have Been (Just) Friends (Future parts to be added as they are written))

(Please be aware that this series will go over topics including coercion, non-consentual romance, and an observation pertaining to potential incestual undertones. If any of this makes you uncomfortable in any way, please proceed with caution. Thank you)

Part 2: A Pair of Star-Cross'd Lovers

Kris Dreemurr is doomed the instant the player assumes control of them.

If Undertale is a game about how your choices can affect the world, then Deltarune is about how sometimes, your choices mean absolutely nothing. Fate grinds on, irrespective of your wishes. Onward you march, towards your ultimate destiny.

This concept features heavilly in a lot of RPGs - the idea that the protagonist is the "chosen one" who will save the world, which due to the constrains of narrative and gaming, is what ends up happening 95% of the time. Much like the Knight and Princess dynamic I discussed in the previous part, this trope is so heavily ingrained in the gaming psyche that we do tend to accept it when it happens,as part and parcel of the RPG experience.

This very familiar setup is where Kris and Susie find themselves upon meeting Ralsei, who waxes lyrical about the very Non-Specific-and-Light-on-Any-Identifying-Details Legend. They are told that the balance of light and dark is being disrupted and a "terrible calamity (will) occur", are shown some apocalyptic imagery, three heroes who are identified by their race/species (and not their name - a detail which may become important later on), who will stop something nefariously dubbed the "Angel's Heaven". It is Prophecy 101, the most barebones framing for a quest you can imagine... but hey, the game needs a hook, doesn't it? Some grand stakes to get the ball rolling.

And so, the roles are doled out: Kris is the human, the unwavering leader; Susie is the no-nonsense contrarian who doesn't really care much for concepts of fate and determinism, and Ralsei is the exposition fairy, doing his best to keep his comrades on the path he has set out for them.

Ok, cool. But where does Kralsei fit into this? Well, in Part 1 and 1.5 of this series of posts, I brought up how Deltarune goes to great lengths to bring the idea of this pairing to prominence... but I didn't really talk about why the game is doing this. And the answer is, because it ties in with Deltarune's central theme of destiny and determinism. Or to put it another way:

Your Choices Don't Matter.

And here, you might protest. Because surely when the game says that, it's only refering to Kris's choices, right? We, as players, can choose from different dialogue options, we can choose to FIGHT or SPARE our adversaries. More fundamentally, we are the ones in control of Kris's movements and actions, while they are almost entirely powerless to fight our influence (note how I say almost - this will be important later).

But think for a moment about the choices we are given as players, and ask yourself - what meaningfully changes as a result of our actions? In Chapter 1, it doesn't matter whether we fight or spare anyone, they'll all return regardless in Chapter 2, with a single line of dialogue added as a handwave to explain why. And while Chapter 2 gives us a little more say in this - we can lose potential recruits to Castle Town by fighting rather than sparing, and they won't turn up in Ralsei's dark world at the end - the main points of the story do not meaningfully change to reflect this.

(there are, of course, things that we CAN do to change things in a pretty big way *coughSnowgravecough* but given that the means to achieve this are rather well-hidden, and it involves doing some very, VERY messed up things in pursuit of it, we can consider it an exception that proves the rule - technically your choices CAN have consequences, but those consequences are so horrific that you're probably better off not choosing in the first place.)

Okay, sure, you say. But this doesn't apply to the interpersonal relationships in Deltarune, now does it? If we don't want Kralsei to happen, then we simply don't choose any of the options that hint at it. That much must be in our power, surely?

To which I have one riposte: the Acid Tunnel of Love.

Brief overview of this sequence: Kris and Ralsei are tasked with "distracting" Queen while Susie and Berdly go to rescue Noelle. Literally on the next screen, the only way to proceed is across a giant river of acid, atop a swan pedallo, while soft carnival-style music plays in the background. Partway through, Ralsei has a heart-to-heart with Kris/the player, Rouxls Kaard does what he does best, and a photo may or may not be taken at the end.

You don't get to choose not to do this (unless you do that other thing which we're not discussing here). This just happens. And it's difficult to get away from the fact that this entire scenario is dripping with romantic undertones, especially when it's contrasted directly afterwards with Susie and Noelle's equally-romantically-charged Rescue and Ferris Wheel ride.

But then, perhaps it's a parody. A funny contrivance that sends up the absurdity of Kralsei by comparing it to a romantic pairing with actual weight, Suselle. But there are two problems with this; the first is that if we write off this scene as parody, then we must also do the same with the ferris wheel, because they both operate under the same logic - they're both based on a massive contrivance.

The second problem is that Ralsei doesn't seem to have got that memo. And no matter how you respond to his questions, the scene will end with his admiration for Kris strengthened. There is NO dialogue option you can select which will dissuade him from his feelings.

Exhibit A: calling Ralsei a lackey will have him cheerfully exclaim "Ooh, I've never been somebody's lackey before!" (because he's a darkner, that's literally what he was designed to be). Exhibit B: saying "It's strange" has Ralsei write off his question as, erm, "sarcasm". Which would perhaps be read as a rebuttal, except that his understanding of social situations is so minimal that he might genuinely believe he's committed a serious faux pas here, rather than interpret the response as a rejection. It also doesn't change his follow-up response, either. Exhibit C: Saying nothing when he says "it's good that you're you" has him laugh at how "Kris-like" not saying anything is, before saying that he "[likes] you-like things".

Cue Ralsei haters throwing their hands up in exasperation.

Contrast again with Susie and Noelle's scene. Here, too, we're presented with options to influence how things will happen. But the crucial difference is, we have absolutely zero sway over Susie, and she will always choose to say and do her own things. Here, too, we are powerless to intervene, but in a more direct way, whereas with Kralsei, even though we CAN choose an option, none of them make a difference to the scene or its outcome. This serves to show just how much agency Susie actually possesses, and is a stark contrast to Kris's severe lack of agency... as well as our own.

What does that mean, exactly? Well, consider this: Susie is free to make her own decisions, up to and including choosing NOT to pursue Noelle romantically. Kris, on the other hand, has no such freedom, and thus cannot choose to opt out of entering into a relationship with Ralsei. And, as I have alluded to a few times, neither can we, despite what our own feelings on the situation might be.

And thus we come to the title of this part - Kris and Ralsei are Star-Crossed. No reference to this line is made in Deltarune as of present, but it has numerous connotations which I believe are relevant to these two characters. Firstly, the idea that their connection is destined to occur - it's written in the stars, woven into the game's literal architecture. As such, there is nothing that anyone can do to stop it from happening - not Ralsei, who probably would be quite thrilled with it, not the player, who try as they might cannot influence it either way, and certainly not Kris, who is almost entirely unable to voice their own desires. We are each as powerless as each other in this instance.

Secondly, the idea that this destined relationship, no matter what form it might take, is doomed to end in tragedy. From the reaction to the various teas, we can infer that Kris is lukewarm on Ralsei at best (this may change as future chapters are released, but it's not exactly a ringing endorsement). And as time goes on, it becomes increasingly apparent that Ralsei is likely labouring under a false notion of who Kris actually is, and has fallen for the idea of Kris that he has conjured up in his own head, rather than the genuine article.

But the problem is more fundamental still, for if we understand the prophecy correctly, light and dark must be in balance - they cannot mix. That means no new dark fountains, which means that Ralsei can never manifest anywhere as a darkner once the events of the game are concluded. This would of course preclude any sort of interpersonal connection, romantic or otherwise. The best that could be hoped for in such a scenario is that Ralsei returns to whichever object he represents in the light world and Kris keeps him around as a memento.

This all assumes a great deal, of course - Kris's stance on Ralsei may well change, and for all we know Ralsei is more than likely very aware that we exist separately from Kris, as evidenced by his clandestine conversations with Kris while we see what Susie's up to. Additionally, it is entirely possible that Ralsei has instead fallen for US through Kris, which presents... additional complications. More on that later.

All of this leads us back to the central conceit of Deltarune: Our choices do not matter. Nothing we say, nothing we do, can change what is going to happen. We don't know exactly where this is going to go, whether they will fall into a full-on romance, or if they become something more akin to queerplatonic partners, or good friends, or something like siblings, or perhaps even mortal enemies. But one thing is for sure - Deltarune is going to continue cramming Kralsei down our throats, whether we like it or not.

...okay, think I best stop there for now. And look, I know I haven't really gone too much into the why of all this just yet. But patience - much of the past few essays have been establishing the groundwork - the what and the how, if you like. I'n Part 3, I'll attempt to go over what I believe the Narrative (i.e. the game) is trying to accomplish with Kralsei - what it's trying to say about games, stories, romance, and how we can be manipulated into endorsing a potentially problematic relationship, irrespective of the wishes of the vessel we control.

Thanks for reading!

#writing #essay #Deltarune #fan theory #Kris dreemurr #Ralsei #Kralsei #Krisei #kris x ralsei #destiny #Narrative #acid tunnel of love #your choices don't matter #Suselle mention #cw potential noncon #thoughts

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willidleaway · 3 years

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OK, let’s talk about Deltarune Chapter 2. Right off the bat two things:

Toby Fox could have been charging 20 USD for this or asked people to pre-purchase the remaining chapters to play Chapter 2, and I’m frankly very surprised (if delighted) that he didn’t.

Soundtrack’s bopping. If you don’t feel like playing two free chapters of a game, which by themselves will give you nine hours of a brilliant time in an absolutely insane world filled with mad characters that all still manages to hold together somehow, I can still recommend giving the OST a listen and then a buy if you are so inclined.

And with that and the spoiler-free lead image out of the way, let’s actually (largely incoherently) talk about Deltarune Chapter 2 below the Read More line. Spoilers galore, including for a bonus enemy ...

OK, so this guy is still a card:

But some non-positive observations to begin with: the Castle Town is nice to look at but maybe a bit uninteresting for the moment, since it’s a completely separate Dark World from the main underworld of Chapter 2. It seems perhaps like a decent hub world for people who haven’t replayed the previous chapter and need some refreshers, especially with the dojo challenges. But some of the other mechanics associated with the Castle Town like recruiting, fusing items, and so forth are as yet unclear. But perhaps it hints at more interaction between chapters through the Castle Town.

And that’s all the non-positive observations I have about Deltarune Chapter 2. It’s not even a negative observation, just taking note of potential seeds being planted for the remainder of the game.

Now. Now now now now now.

I don’t know how Toby Fox manages to continue coming up with such a diverse array of antagonists all so ridiculous and insane in their own special way, but he continues to outdo himself. And not only is Queen insane but so is literally everything that happens in Cyber City and then in Queen’s Mansion, like the layers of truces across Queen and her quasi-willing peons:

and indeed, ye Triumphant Returne of Rouxls Kaard, absolute card:

But the madcap side of things doesn’t mean there isn’t real attention to fleshing out everything introduced in Chapter 1, in tandem on both the narrative side and the gameplay side. As far as the latter, we can (finally) get party members other than Kris to undertake at least basic standard non-magical actions on their own that don’t cost Tension Points, which is very much welcome. But at the same time managing TP well is even more important than before. A lot of careful grazing makes certain fights a great deal easier, in a way that I didn’t really notice for most of Chapter 1 (with the possible exception of Jevil, who I still haven’t successfully pacified). The attacks are correspondingly far denser and often don’t leave too much margin for error, but as someone with minimal hand-eye coordination I still had a reasonable time completing Chapter 2.

Well, except for one particular enemy.

oh god this fight used up every single recovery item I had

Spamton NEO is an interesting enemy, arguably more so than Jevil, and I’m not just saying that because I managed to spare Spamton but still haven’t had any success with Jevil. For one, finding the pieces of the key for Jevil’s cell is straightforward, whereas finding the Empty Disk for Spamton is itself a nightmarish dodge-fest. But more importantly, you actively have to seek Jevil out in Chapter 1, whereas your first encounter with Spamton is actually mandatory as part of the main story and then you optionally follow up on Spamton’s lead later to be able to face off against his NEO form.

Perhaps relevant to the forced nature of Spamton’s introduction is his relevance to Deltarune as a whole despite his bonus boss status. Compared to Jevil’s dialogue, Spamton’s babblings seem far more directly tied to the central themes of Deltarune around choice or agency, or rather a lack thereof (in stark contrast to Undertale’s general ethos). Jevil mostly just wants to wreak mischief and chaos; Spamton is fuelled by a need for freedom, to no longer be a puppet of ... something. And facing him in this way obviously clearly affects Kris, whose own free will is in real question ...

Oh yes, it seems now we’re really getting into the real core of Deltarune’s story, with all of the lore about the Roaring and more talk of the Knight leading up to this ending. But are Kris and the Knight one and the same? Or is Kris a puppet of the Knight? Or ... is it even the other way around? (No idea if that makes any sense but it sounds like a cool thing to throw out there.)

And another thing: this staticky smile ...

I would guess that’s Chapter 3′s boss once we actually go through this new Dark World, but why does this static remind me of the static you see behind Spamton’s glasses in some of his creepier shop dialogue? Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but there’s certainly an embarrassment of riches to over-analyse, even around Chapter 2′s bonus boss.

And I haven’t even talked about every other character being amazing. Susie of course continues to undergo really positive development, but Noelle seems to get the bulk of the attention honestly—we not only get her to finally interact with Susie, but we also learn more about her past as well her family, both about her lost sister (strongly implied to be named December) and her mother. The latter we get not only through more dialogue with her father Rudy but also in an implicit sense through her interactions with Queen, which may well mirror her fractious relationship with an overbearing mother.

Ralsei’s characterisation doesn’t try to expand as much, instead continuing to detail what’s already been planted throughout Chapter 1—his rule of the Castle Town, his awareness of the danger posed by the potential dark/light imbalance, and so forth—but nothing quite as revelatory as with Noelle. It doesn’t mean I can’t try my best to ship Kris with Ralsei though ...

Anyway, fluffy boys and mean girls aside, it’s also nice to see characters like Berdly—who seemed like a completely incidental one-note gag character in Chapter 1—get fleshed out with reasonably compelling (although obviously insane) motivation and backstory, and one wonders which other characters may get this sort of treatment in future.

Speaking of other characters as well, how cute and/or cool are all of the new enemies and enemy-adjacent characters???

Part of me suspects Tasque Manager in particular is actually carefully engineered to break the Internet. But my favourite is Swatch, who gives off weirdly Tuxedo Mask-esque vibes to me:

And an additional bit of speculation: I strongly suspect we’ll see some persistent things across the chapters that aren’t necessarily linear in progression. When I brought Spamton’s shadow crystal to Seam, they basically chided me for not having Jevil’s crystal (for god’s sake Seam it’s not for lack of trying), but then said this:

Is it possible that the game’s keeping track of certain global things outside of any of your individual saves, and some of these certain global things might not just have to do with optional bonuses ... ? Is it possible that some of these certain global things may enable cross-chapter nonlinear gameplay to accompany all of the other Castle Town mechanics introduced in Chapter 2?

Or do I just not want to replay all of Chapter 2 if I manage to pacify Jevil?

Time will tell. How much time?

Only time will tell on that front too, I guess.

Overall: Chapter 2 of Deltarune is another spectacular episode in Toby Fox fleshing out this unbelievable yet somehow credible world in his madcap way, and you can bet I will be watching for future chapters with great interest.

PS: I finished Chapter 2 of Deltarune to have a good time and I’m honestly feeling so attacked right now—

look expiration dates are important okay

#undertale #deltarune

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just-char · 3 years

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Hey Char, been a while. I'm curious, did you play the Snowgrave route of chapter 2 and if so what were your thoughts? I played it and it makes me think of you with the horror elements, so I wondered if you gave it a go.

Hello, Bun! Long time, no see, indeed. I’m glad to hear you thought of me as I primarily associate playing Deltarune and Undertale with you (you were the one who bought me it in the first place, after all, and convinced me to play it. Even when I listen to the soundtrack I think specifically of how you enjoyed it!)

Also, Napstablook = Krickis as far as I am concerned. Where there is Napstablook, I am thinking of Krickis. On actual serious thoughts, the Snowgrave Route is certainly an exciting one. I have not played it myself (Kris and Noelle are so young and I can barely manage to play the genocide route in Undertale) but I did watch another person play through it and my thoughts are as follows: wow!

Toby Fox most definitely has a hidden penchant for horror and it’s planted all across Undertale and Deltarune (Alphy’s lab in the true pacifist run in Undertale immediately comes to mind.) It’s a lot to do with the environment and atmosphere he’s capable of building in all areas of the game creating process, whether it be music or art design or battle mechanics (I imagine with the help of others too, but unfortunately I’m not very familiar with who works on the games) and creepy seems to come easy to him! I know you didn’t ask about Spamton, but his boss battle is another fantastic example of this. That horror element is a lot more... nightmare-y, though, I suppose? What I mean to say is, it’s almost silly. It doesn’t feel as real as what’s happening with Kris actively throughout the game, or what happens to Berdly. Part of this is because fighting Spamton doesn’t have consequences (that are obvious to the player.) The worst that happens is that Kris appears to have a panic attack afterwards and is visibly upset by what they’ve been forced by us to witness, but what I like specifically about the Snowgrave Route is that this lasts and it’s really explored. The lasting consequence it seems to have on the psyche of Noelle and Kris and the implication of the entire route is horror through and through, in a fantastic, amazing, wowza way.

And now, because I am a little bit too excited to talk about this, an unedited and possibly impossible to read ramble about horror and Noelle and Kris below the cut. The way I describe the game and the role the player has might be upsetting, so please do not read unless you’re very comfortable with body control horror etc..

Deltarune isn’t a horror game but its premise mirrors one in multiple ways and I find that very fascinating. It is almost more unnerving that such horrible experiences are masked by the fun, whacky outer layers. One could play Deltarune and never find Jevil or Spamtom’s boss fight or play the Snowgrave route and remain blissfully unaware of what lurks beneath a very normal (if occasionally dark!) adventure story.

Despite this, there is a lot to be said about Kris and the player’s control over them, as well as some choice words from Noelle about Kris’ recent behaviour and demeanour. It’s hard not to assume that Kris is possessed by us. We can force them to say things but they can react to these dialogue choices and become visibly upset at the actions we force upon them, so even playing the game as intended without discovering anything remotely below the surface, it’s impossible to ignore what actually playing the game and controlling Kris does to them. Essentially, stripping away all of the scariest parts of Deltarune doesn’t matter, because its actual premise, where you play, not as Kris, but as an entity CONTROLLING Kris, is in itself horrific! Kris is a child, at most sixteen and I certainly believe younger than that, and no amount of drawing them weirdly tall and lanky and emo-y can change that.

Possession and inability to control one’s self are heavily utilised in horror. When you consider how many times you’ve watched someone be tied down, forced to witness whatever is happening to them in real time, or the general horror and gore associated with demon possession in even current mainstream movies like The Conjuring (or even a mix of both! Media that explores being trapped inside the body without any control while being possessed and the effects it has on your mind is not common enough) it’s easy to see the connections between a lot of horror tropes and Kris’ ‘problem’. Only thing is, we’re directly perpetuating this horror every time we play. We are the demon! We are the person who is strapping someone down and forcing them to witness horrific things by our hand! I mean, it’s just fantastic. Deltarune is by no means a horror but it certainly feels like it. I suppose that’s the power of implication!

Being more specific to the Snowgrave route (I promise the previous ramble was related!) the player extends this control to Noelle, arguably the most vulnerable and ‘helpless’ character in the game so far besides Kris themselves (and even then, that’s in a much more literal way.) unlike Kris, who physically has no choice, Noelle feels as though she has no choice. She’s a pushover and unable to prevent who she perceives as her childhood friend from forcing her to do things she doesn’t want to. Her relationship with her mother seems to play into this complex. Noelle has always been one of my favourite characters— even with what little we see of her in chapter one, she makes a lasting impression and it’s not surprising that people wanted her to be a party member in this chapter. (The irony!) But this newest chapter also furthers an interesting trait of hers, namely, her fascination with fear. She enjoys being scared, she gets a rush from being in dangerous situations, feeling unsafe. She says so herself, though she uses more external situations to explain it (scary forests, etc.) It certainly explains her crush on Susie, but in the Snowgrave Route, it really works against her. Or, we use it against her. At a first glance, what we do to her in the Snowgrave route is awful, and then, the more you think about it, the worst it gets (usually a trademark of excellent horror and great writing in general, in my opinion.) not only are we playing into her deepest insecurities (because remember, it’s not Kris doing this, or us playing AS Kris, it’s just we, the player) we are actively abusing her as a person. We force her to fight. We force her to hurt people. We do all this for power. And we do all this while simultaneously doing it to Kris as well! And forcing Kris to be our mouthpiece, forcing them to hurt their friend who they presumedly love and care for! Unlike Susie and Ralsei, Noelle’s opinion of us cannot affect our journey and she is easy to control, so we do it. And once again, these are kids! They are children! We are not fighting Sans Undertale to the death, we are actively abusing and controlling children, much to the detriment of their mental health and the physical health of those around them.

Details such as the watch and the blackened “conversation” we have with Noelle in the hospital really only add to the experience. The implication that Berdly has been seriously harmed and potentially killed by what we’ve done to him (or more accurately, forced Noelle to do to him) is handled really interestingly from the younger persons perspective, where he simply doesn’t wake up. I could really go on and on, but unfortunately time is a constraint and I don’t think what I’m saying is very easy to parse anyway.

To summarise: Snowgrave Route good. Very well-written. Deltarune is a horror in disguise, but I will continue to put my hands over my ears and pretend everything is okay, just like Mr Toby Fox would like me to do. Thank you very much for the ask, I hope you’re doing well! If you have any thoughts of your own, please share them with me. I’d be delighted to hear your opinion as a writer (horror or not.) :]

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #tw: horror #tw: mind control #(Technically? I’m very worried about the way I describe the game in this post. I don’t want to make any of my followers uncomfortable)

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spamtonspipis · 2 years

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currently going through extreme emotional grief rn and thinking of things to make myself feel better and one of them was the following:

burger route.

in one of the mid-to-late chapters, toriel finally starts to get suspicious of kris and their actions, and asks pizzapants to watch them and the house while she's gone.

not entirely sure what she'd be gone for at this point, maybe setting up a meeting with asgore about kris' behavior? or maybe even seeing someone, idk. single goat mom tingz

susie bursts into kris' house while The Pants is there and is like "KRIS WE'VE GOT A GODDAMN SITUATION THERE'S ANOTHER FOUNTAIN"

Pants Boy is like "what the fuck why is this child swearing at me"

kris and susie convince Los Pantalones to join them on their dark world journey to seal the fountain

ralsei shows up and Pantalonely is like "wait a second you look like" and is IMMEDIATELY SHUT DOWN by someone before he can bring up asriel

side note i imagine Pant probably just has a palette swap as his dark world variant bc he literally cannot imagine himself not working fast food and being a loser. absolute fuckin dipshit moment <3

susie and ralsei go off on their own after a certain point in the chapter (or maybe even right off the bat, like ralsei has smth to talk to susie abt and tells kris to teach Hosenjunge to do battle)

and immediately the first thing you want to do when battling with Good Ol No Vacation Days is defend w/ kris and then use his special skill

i rly like the idea of Italian Food Trousers having a talk skill and then using it like one normally would in Undertale but then when he talks he majorly bums the enemies out

or the enemies start laughing at him which causes him to get angry, buffing damage for his next attack

and after that, defend with kris and allow Olive Garden Knickers to attack and kill the enemies

Minimum Wage Man starts to panic but the player mentions asriel when given the choice and that seems to strike a nerve with him

the route delves a bit into Unfortunate Pants Lad's friendship with asriel

to stay on the route you have to keep killing enemies after they've been affected by Emo Pants' skill, up until you encounter a shopkeep

the shopkeep first offers an ice-themed item and Pantaloons goes fucking berzerk on this poor soul bc GOD WHAT THE FUCK EVEN IS ICE-E AND WHY DO I WORK FOR THAT CORPORATE BASTARD HUH

I BARELY MAKE MINIMUM WAGE AND ASRIEL'S ALL THE WAY AT COLLEGE AND HE'S LIVING SUCH A GOOD LIFE RIGHT NOW

AND HE'S GOING TO FORGET ALL ABOUT ME

oh fuck, maybe Pizzeria Pissboy has more complex feelings than just missing his good buddy goatman

i imagine that there would be a choice between stepping between Sad Pants and the shopkeep or allowing him to keep wailing on them

and to keep going you have to let our Fast Food Sadboy beat up this innocent capitalist

(which sidenote the words "innocent capitalist" are very much a contradictory statement)

Loserpants ends up finding another item on the shopkeep's person (yes he loots the corpse what about it)

it's a small keychain with a dragon on it

it reminds him of asriel

after you equip him with the keychain, Pizza Boy unlocks a new skill that makes killing enemies quicker

you keep defending with kris and using Poor Little Underpaid Meow Meow to kill enemies

until a section later where kris and Aforementioned Meow Meow see ralsei and susie again

Catboy Garbageman gets really angry and defensive and runs away from them after they ask to rejoin the party

after a while there's a scene where Stinkboy Cashier and kris are chilling out relaxing and he says that he's really happy to get to feel important to someone else again

throughout the route it's implied that Pants, Pizza either previously had or currently still has feelings for asriel

Mamma Mia, that's a spicy meat-a-ball-a of-a emotions!

the player then has a dialogue choice where choosing the option about PP's past is the option that continues the route

choice 1 is more abt his and asriel's friendship and about his aspirations to study theater in college

choice 2 is more abt his job at ICE-E's P"E"ZZA and leads to Pizzapants realizing that his coworker (the blue rabbit boy, who i will refer to as NCG, nice cream guy, from here on out) actually does seem to care abt him and want to be friends

the route keeps going up until kris & PP meet up with susie & ralsei again

if the player's missed a kill before this point kris will choose to fight alongside susie and ralsei again, PP will stay behind in fear of getting himself killed, and the game will continue as normal

however if kris & PP have killed everyone else, Pizzapants will tag along behind the party. the rest of the route continues normally until the final boss

the final boss will call Pizzapants out specifically, and ask to fight him, because they've noticed that he's been killing darkners

Pizzapants will agree but only on the condition that kris joins him, and the boss agrees, but never targets kris with their attacks, only targeting Pizzapants

susie and ralsei will occasionally chime in during the fight

all of Pizzapants' attacks and skills are essentially useless against the boss, save for the skill that kris can instruct him to do to spare them

after the fight is over, regardless of whether kris fought or spared the boss, Pizzapants will fall to his knees in shame and ask kris if he's still important to them

regardless of the answer, PP will say "yeah, sure" and dejectedly walk offscreen

back in the light world, when Pizzapants comes to, he'll get even more distraught, but will mention that he's relieved that his actions weren't actually real, and then says he has to use the bathroom, which he leaves to do

if kris walks into the bathroom again after the dialogue, the following will happen:

first they won't be allowed, with PP screaming loudly at the top of his lungs. why would you walk in on him going pee that's icky

second time they also won't be allowed, as PP will scream again

but the third time PP will say "alright alright geez" or smth and then kris can go in

when they see PP he's washing his hands, and the flavor text mentions that he's whispering to himself about how he can feel dust under his fingernails

going to ICE-E'S P"E"ZZA and talking to NCG will get you a dialogue where NCG is worried that PP might ditch work today and that he was really looking forward to seeing him again

NCG has feelings for Pizzapants and they're real and beautiful, love wins <3

after the dialogue with NCG PP will show up and look confusedly at kris

NCG will try to say smth but PP will immediately dismiss him and only talk to kris

this drives a rift in the formations of friendship between NCG and Pizzapants

PP mentions asriel again and NCG starts looking really sad and dejected, and after the dialogue ends and kris goes to leave, PP walks up to them

"hey, i know we haven't been close but, if you'd want to hang out sometime then i'd be free to. in fact, i was actually about to quit my stupid dead-end job here, so i'll have plenty of free time"

the final scene of the game shows kris taking out their SOUL and doing smth Suspicious, knife in hand

upon opening the game again, NCG's sprite is in the background and he asks you, "do you feel important now?"

#burger route #deltarune au #deltarune alt route #deltarune fan route #deltarune #deltarune pizzapants #pizzapants #burgerpants #nice cream guy #kris #susie #ralsei #asriel #long post #pipis.exe #idk i literally just thought of it and like. the thought of toying w/ bp's self-esteem in a game that tells you your choices don't matter.#anyway stan pizzapants <3

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cellydawn · 5 years

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Sans is a Darkner Theory (MASTERPOST)

I know that this theory has been touched on before, but I’d like to compile all the evidence from the original post with some additional stuff I found relevant into a single comprehensive post. To preface this, I would like to remind everyone that the merchandise based on Sans isn’t canon and that though Deltarune isn’t a direct sequel to Undertale, the Deltarune FAQ confirms that connections between the two are not precluded.

I’m going to divide this theory into three parts because I want to cover all my bases and there is an extensive amount of evidence, so without further ado, let me introduce you to my completely self-indulgent crazed ramblings!

WARNING: This is very long. Also, a bunch of speculation here so read at your own discretion.

1. Sans has connections to the Deltarune universe

Let’s list off what we know for sure:

Sans instantly recognizes the Player as a human and has knowledge of the Surface.

In the conversation at MTT Restaurant, Sans confesses that he knows the feeling of wanting to go home.

According to the Snowdin Shopkeeper, Sans and Papyrus showed up one day and “asserted themselves”.

In his lost soul dialogue, Sans says that “you’ll never see ‘em again”.

During his battle, Sans reveals that he “gave up trying to go back a long time ago” and that “getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore, either.”

After being defeated, Sans says that he’s “going to grillbys”. In Deltarune, the first place we see Sans is at Grillby’s. Sans’s house and the restaurant in Deltarune are the same as in Undertale (except for slight alterations like the lack of snow and...’sans)

Undertale!Sans and Deltarune!Sans have identical sprites.

After talking with the Clam Girl and learning of Suzy, you can go to Sans’s workshop and find a card sticking out from the back flap of the binder, described as a poorly drawn picture of three smiling people with the words "don't forget" written in lowercase. Deltarune’s credits song is titled “Don’t Forget”.

We can safely assume that Sans came from another place that is not the underground nor the surface; Sans misses his home and his friends there (presumably the people in the picture); Susie and Suzy are related somehow. Additionally, we can speculate that Sans and Papyrus may have arrived from another dimension. It might very well be the case that Sans originated from the Deltarune universe: Sans is completely resigned to the fact that he can’t alter the past no matter how hard he tries. Deltarune’s prophecy is all about inevitability. Sans’s defeatist attitude might stem from this.

Here’s some evidence that is more debatable:

River Person warns the Player to “Beware of the man who came from the other world”. It’s possible that the man in question is Sans.

I’ve noticed this isn’t brought up as much, but Sans’s word search is from ICE-E’s, which is a brand we only see in Deltarune. As far as we know, there is no trace of this brand in the Undertale universe. It definitely doesn’t appear to be one from a newspaper—it’s a distraction given to kids at restaurants.

BONUS: There’s a wacky inflatable mascot that resembles the ICE-E’s mascot in the dog shrine found in the skelebros’ house (console version)

During Shyren’s encounter, if the Player hums twice, the flavor text describes Sans selling tickets made of toilet paper. Now, we know that all the food in the Underground is made out of magic. Magic nourishes monsters, but it doesn’t pass through their bodies as waste. Why does Sans have toilet paper?

Alphys seems to be in-the-know about Sans’s time-space shenanigans. In the epilogue of the pacifist ending, there’s some dialogue that suggests Alphys and Sans are quite familiar with each other. Both of them want to keep this a secret for whatever reason. In a neutral ending in which Alphys becomes the ruler, she is mournful of the deaths of Undyne, Alphys, and Asgore, but is glad that “at least Sans is here”. In the MTT quiz, if you pick “Don’t Know” to the question about her crush, Alphys reveals that she has done research on alternate universes and knows they exist. Both Sans and Alphys have connections to Gaster, who is quite prevalent in Deltarune. She, along with Sans (and coincidentally, the ICE-E word-search) are affected by Fun values and have their own Fun events. It seems a little random, but what if all the Fun events are Gaster-related? Are Alphys and Sans the two people mentioned in Entry 17?

So I think all of these pieces are sufficient in establishing Sans’s connection to Deltarune, though it is still unclear whether Sans came from Deltarune into Undertale or vice versa, OR Sans showed up from yet ANOTHER universe. That’s a theory for another time, though. On to the next part!

2. Sans has abilities/properties exclusive to Darkners

Some of the basics:

Sans can teleport, that is, use “shortcuts”, as evidenced by appearing both in front and behind the character in Snowdin, going to Grillbys, chasing after Papyrus in the wrong direction during the Pacifist ending scene, etc. Though Rouxls Kaard is shown to teleport, Lancer’s style of teleporting most closely resembles Sans’s. There are multiple instances in which Lancer stays ahead despite the Player passing him (for example, Lancer sneaking a sign past the party despite there only being one way to the door).

The door to Sans’s room greatly resembles the fast-travel doors that only Darkners are able to create. If you get the key to his room, the pitch-black and seemingly-endless walkway is not dissimilar to that of the supply closet. Papyrus also happens to liken Sans’s room to “another world”. All of the weird junk could be representative of various landmarks in the dark world.

Sans can manipulate shadows as seen through his first appearance (I also like to think that this is the reason why his “eye-lights” can disappear). This is most prevalent with Ralsei, Lancer, and the King obscuring parts of their body with shadows.

Darkners have colored portraits. At first glance, you would assume Sans doesn’t have one, but his head is already—conveniently—black and white.

If that wasn’t enough, let’s take a look at Sans’s battle in the Genocide Route. The most distinguishing feature of this fight is Sans’s ability to dodge your attacks, an ability that was thought to be unique to him. As it turns out, Darkners are also able to dodge (provided that they are warned). In order to actually beat Sans, you need to tire him out, and once you have dealt the final blow, he runs away. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

I believe that Sans actually survives the encounter as well. I’ve seen people claim that when he goes off-screen, the “dusting” sound effect signifies that he dies. This is wrong. That sound effect plays at the end of every battle, regardless of whether you spared or killed an enemy. I’d like to point out that the EXP you gain from the battle does not confirm Sans’s death. If you pick on Loox, you can get 5 extra EXP stacking up to 3 times. This means that killing an enemy is not required for you to gain EXP. I’ll also include that the kill counter doesn’t go up once Sans’s battle is over. It’s believed that this is the case because of Chara’s interference, though I don’t personally agree.

Let me also present this tidbit that I see no one else talking about: unlike literally any monster in the underground (besides Flowey, but he doesn’t count), Sans HAS NO HP BAR. When he gets hit, the damage numbers are present, but the HP bar that should have appeared above him is absent. Darkners don’t have a visible HP bar when struck.

Here’s some stuff that’s a little bit more controversial/speculative:

Lancer more or less implies that Darkners bleed, though we haven’t seen any examples of this yet. Ralsei doesn’t correct him, however. We know that the monsters in the light world don’t bleed (“Does it hurt to be made out of blood?”), and Susie’s comment (“Everybody bleeds, right?”) could be read as her trying to look cool for Lancer. Then, does Sans bleed?

It has been confirmed by @nochocolate that the red coming out of Sans is the exact same red as his ketchup bottle. This is a deliberate choice, but it doesn’t completely deconfirm that it may be blood because we don’t have other instances of blood to compare it to. Additionally, there is a mention of both blood and ketchup from Noelle: "This isn't another trick, is it, Kris? Like when you put ketchup on your arms and told me it was blood?" This might just be Toby Fox poking fun at the fandom or intentionally misdirecting us—really, it could go either way.

Sans’s mouth doesn’t move at all while he talks. It turns out that there may be an explanation for this! In Undertale, you can see the mouths of face sprites move while words are being spoken.

However, in Deltarune, both Lightners and Darkners don’t feature moving mouths in their textboxes! In instances wherein the full-body sprites are shown (Papyrus date, Alphys date, literally all the battles), the mouths don’t move either. So while his expression rarely changes, it might turn out that Sans DOES actually move his mouth while speaking, we just can’t see it. I’m a bit iffy on this theory since it varies from monster to monster in the Light World. Moreover, in Undertale, while Mettaton’s mouth doesn’t move at all (I’m going to disregard this since he is a robot) it’s very peculiar that the same can be said for Alphys.

Seriously, why doesn’t Alphys’s mouth move at all?? This HAS to be intentional, all of the other characters with a face sprite have moving mouths. Deltarune!Alphys doesn’t have one either. This brings up more questions than answers: Are certain monsters Lightners and others not? Is Alphys a Lightner? Did her “research” on alternate universes involve her actually traversing the multiverse? Am I overthinking this? In any case, it’s more stuff linking her to Sans...

If it turns out that not all monsters are Lightners, then it makes sense that Sans is so devoted to Papyrus, assuming that Papyrus is, in fact, a Lightner. No other person’s death makes as much of a difference as Papyrus’s concerning Sans’s behavior towards you. Alternatively, if Papyrus is not a Lightner, then it stands to reason why Sans is so depressed—he has no way of fulfilling his purpose. “Sans”, after all, means “without”.

The Light World has virtually no indications of monsters being able to use magic. In Undertale, it’s stated that magic is a method of self-expression for monsters, yet the only magic we see in Deltarune is from within the Dark World. If we compare Deltarune!Toriel’s stovetop to Undertale!Toriel’s, we see that the flavor text has omitted her use of fire magic. Susie is able to send out magic ax attacks, but this is likely due to the nature of the Dark World. I need to clarify that she is not the one that casts the Pacify spell at the end of a “neutral” run; she realizes that the King is tired, and waits for Ralsei to finish the job. Her remembering Pacify is exactly what it means, and Ralsei comments on it because he is expressing surprise that she cared to remember the spell she made fun of him for. I’ll also point out that the lack of magic would be the reason why the monster-human war ended differently/didn’t even happen, therefore allowing monsters to reside on the surface. If Sans did hail from this world, he wouldn’t have magic or would have very limited magical capabilities if he isn’t a Darkner.

Here is a piece of dialogue from Sans about the Underground. Interestingly, he differentiates himself from monsters, though this could just be because he doesn’t want to lump in Papyrus with them. The King has a similar line (“Show my son the monster you REALLY are!”). Monsters are possibly complicit in Darkners’ imprisonment. Is it possible that Sans is also resentful? Do Darkners exist in Undertale?

I feel like this interaction is worth mentioning. It’s entirely possible that Darkners were sealed so long ago in the Undertale universe that nobody even remembers their existence.

Going back to Papyrus, if Sans is a Darkner, then it’s important to mention that Papyrus is not. We see Papyrus turn to dust when he is killed. For that reason, it seems that Sans and Papyrus are not biological brothers. I think this actually makes a lot of sense given how different they look. Yes, it’s true that Sans and Papyrus both have a skeleton motif, but they don’t look remotely similar. The face shape, the jaw, the build, the height, the eyes, the nasal cavity—nothing matches! Each monster species look the same, hell, even boss monsters like Toriel and Asgore resemble each other. Compared to Papyrus, Sans seems a lot more solid (his gut) AND he’s almost completely covered up save for his face (what are you hiding under there?).

Their bone attacks are distinct as well: Papyrus’s have a more angular aesthetic compared to Sans’s rounded edges.

In comparison, Toriel, Asgore, and Asriel have the same exact fire attack.

So, if Sans is a skeleton-themed Darkner, what type would he be?

3. Sans is the Ace of Spades

This part of the theory is a bit more conjectural, but I think there is enough evidence to put this in here.

Let’s start with how Sans, Lancer, and the King are similar:

Their sprites have the same color scheme: black, blue, white, and grey.

They sport uneven and toothy grins, are round and chubby (“if you eat too many hot dogs…you’ll probably get huge like me”), and have a hood.

The spades seem to have a smile motif. The grinning “mouth” of the Card Castle has the same number of “teeth” as Sans. Additionally, you can see portraits of spade people inside the castle. They’re all smiling.

These three are the only characters that can freely shift between being completely submerged in the shadows and becoming visible. The ability to cloak their body with shadows is a trait thought to be shared by all Darkners; Ralsei, after all, exhibits this all throughout our journey. What’s interesting is that there are clear parallels to Sans, Lancer, and the Kings’ shadows: they conceal their entire form and reveal it during their first appearances.

Sans and Lancer are shown to be able to teleport. I’m bringing this up again because it seems that not all Darkners can teleport without the use of a door as indicated by Ralsei’s confusion. If Ralsei has extensive knowledge of Darkner powers, and he is unaware that Lancer can teleport, then teleportation must be an ability unique to the spades, or, at the very least, card-themed Darkners.

Sans and the King’s fights are eerily similar. You need to fight/tire them out and listen to them monologue in order to progress. A major theme of both fights is how you can’t truly spare them. Appearing worn out from the battle, they appeal for mercy. Should the Player fall for it, they launch an unavoidable attack that deals catastrophic damage. Additionally, before his fight, the King employs the use of silent text, just like Sans during his judgments and his intimidating moments. Also worth noting: in both fights, the battle box is manipulated deliberately to suit the needs of the Player (for our last attack against Sans) and the King (his weird stomach tongue latching onto the box). Sans is also capable of stretching the box as seen with the attack before his special attack.

Lancer and Sans, in particular, parallel each other quite nicely. They are both playful jokers, they both own bikes, and both of these characters have a strange relationship with food (particularly with red condiments).

The two just so happen to have stands to sell questionable foodstuffs.

Sans is evidently constantly eating:

Undyne: “And his brother kept making 100’s of midnight snacks.”

Papyrus: “GRILLBY’S… IT’S DARK AND FULL OF GREASE. PURGATORY OF FRIES… HAMBURGER ABYSS… ANYWAY, MY BROTHER PRACTICALLY LIVES HERE.”

Big-Mouth: “Sans is interesting. He has told me about all kinds of incredible foods. But, despite his knowledge, he always orders the worst burger off the menu.”

And we know that Lancer barely eats at all. He doesn’t think that having three glasses of milk as his dinner is unusual, he’s not allowed to eat the Dark Candy, he pretends to eat the salsa in the stump, and he has to get fed worms by Rouxls because his father forgot to feed him. Sans and Lancer both have terrible eating habits. I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean, but you know, food for thought.

Why the Ace of Spades:

The designs of both Lancer and the King originated from @kanotynes who created an entire deck of cards. The Ace of Spades does not have a distinct design.

French manufacturers standardized the four playing card suits. “Sans” and “Lancer” are both French words.

It symbolizes uncleanliness and depression (Sans’s socks and his room, the latter is pretty self-explanatory), omens (River Person’s warning, Flowey alerting us to not reveal our abilities to him, “you’re going to have a bad time”), and death (the reason for his skeletal nature).

In Blackjack, Aces have a numeric value of 1 (matching his stats) or 11 (the same number of unique pre-battle dialogue from Sans, though this may just be a lucky coincidence). The Eleventh Hour is an idiom meaning nearly too late. Sans’s fight is your last possible chance at quitting before the world ends and your game gets corrupted.

Remember that bit where Sans has toilet paper? In the Card Castle, you can see that a bathroom, the Royal Flush, is occupied. Darkners have to digest their food. On a related note, the royal flush is a poker term for an A(14), K(13), Q(12), J(11), and 10 hand. Interestingly, in the sequence before his “special attack”, we see Sans disappear and reappear at the edges of the screen 14 times (again, probably just a neat coincidence).

The ace is paradoxically the least and most valuable card (in Blackjack, Poker, etc.), paralleling Sans being the weakest and strongest enemy.

Ace of Spades also represents “an end”, and Sans is there at the end of our journey, judging us before Asgore’s fight. He is also responsible for initiating the phone calls at the end of every neutral route.

Okay, this one is a little bit of a joke. In this deleted tweet, Toby said that Sans would be too lazy for sex, causing fans to speculate that he is “ace” lol.

BONUS: Sans was originally intended to run a casino. This one’s a bit self-explanatory. Also explains his poker face.

The most important piece of evidence, however, is this: the French expression fagoté comme l'as de pique means "(badly) dressed like the ace of spades." Checks out.

On Gaster Blasters:

Gaster Blasters might have a spade motif. If you connect the natural curves of the eyes and the top of the nose ridge, you get a spade shape. The GB's crests resemble King Spade's crown and possibly the neck/shoulder part of his cape.

A GB's nose resembles King Spade's when he isn't snarling at you; this might also apply to Sans if he stopped smiling (mouth shape affects the shape of their noses).

Also on the topic of noses, Sans, Lancer, and King Spade's noses translate to the same shape in their overworld sprites.

The fog from Snowdin, which has been theorized to be either a front-facing GB or Sans' face (and honestly I lean more towards it being Sans's face because of the eye shape) has a hidden line underneath and above the nose. Perhaps Sans resembles the Gaster Blasters and the Spades more than we anticipated?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....

#undertale #deltarune #darkner sans #deltarune theory #undertale theory #lancer #chaos king #sans is the ace of spades #long post #cellytheory

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argentdandelion · 4 years

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Are Darkners Mind-Controlling Lightners? (Part 3 of 4)

(Caveat: Darkners viewing Lightners as royalty-celebrity-philanthropists, rather than subtly mind-controlling godlike beings, is the most plausible interpretation of their relationship. As this was largely complete before figuring that out, it will be posted nonetheless.)(As Tumblr hates links, use the tag "Are Lightners Mind-Controlling Darkners?" for navigation.)

Darkners Are Toys?

As ZaCloud points out, the Dark World is apparently based on the abandoned classroom, and all the toys and games within. Darkners, thus, are (or are based on) toys and games. This would explain why they so enjoy helping Lightners: that’s what toys and games exist for.

However, being psychologically constructed as a toy may limit their ability to choose their own lives and happiness. Consider Seam, who says: “neither Light nor Dark hold a future for a Darkner in my condition.” Seam is an old, damaged stuffed animal; dialogue suggests toys so damaged as Seam have little potential to be played with. Should Darkners set so much of their purpose on helping Lightners (e.g., by playing with them) Seam may feel devoid of any chances to fulfill a purpose, causing a descent into depression. Although being very damaged can certainly affect a person's (or, presumably, Lightner's) quality of life, such people can still be loved, fill a particular purpose, and feel fulfilled, and so have more control over their happiness than Darkners.

Furthermore, what if the Darkners want to do things that would make them less appealing to Lightners? If, say, Ralsei wants to fix some kind of Dark Fountain problem and work on it full-time, would he deny himself future happiness indefinitely by falling out of the Lightners' lives?

Effects of Darkners Being Toys

Although knowing Lightners are toys could make things go well, by giving an innocent, reasonable context to their admiring, friendly, servile ways, there are also ways it could go wrong. Recalling that the physical forms of Darkners are mere objects may encourage viewing Darkners as only objects which exist for Lightners’ use. Consider Sid from Toy Story: by real-life standards, Sid is nothing but a little unnerving, but in a world where toys can suffer, he’s a horrific mad scientist.

Viewing Darkners as objects could have problems even if not malicious: what if Kris or Susie were to fix Seam-the-toy without Seam-the-person’s consent? Would basically doing a non-essential facial reconstruction surgery to make Seam happier or more “lovable” really have Seam’s best interests at heart? Just because Darkners are happy to help Lightners doesn’t mean Darkners would feel the same about the reverse.

Although Susie doesn’t outright talk about the implications of Darkners being toys, she does seem unnerved by the idea Darkners’ “purpose” is to help Lightners.

Susie: Hey, uh, let's ditch the weird "purpose" talk. You're probably just glad you ate a weird berry. Lancer: Yeah!! I'm still boost from the juice!!!

Arguably, Lancer is unnerved too: his over-enthusiastic delivery may very well be a façade to cover his discomfort.

Exploitation & Counterproductive Responses

Although the most likely interpretations of the fulfillment effect don’t entirely preclude free will, one could argue Lightners are supernaturally charismatic to Darkners. Indeed, it’s possible the relationship is so unequal as to make Darkners genuinely admire Lightners for unimpressive or counterproductive things:

Lancer: “Earlier, Susie ate a pinecone off the floor. It gave her a terrible stomach-ache. It was VERY brave and cool.”

Not even Lancer’s unique psychological situation of admiring villainy lets this make sense.

Lightners might also be extra-persuasive. When Susie is in the prison, she “invites” a Rudinn guard into the trash can. It turns out the Rudinn was literally invited there, not beaten up and shoved in:

Thanks for inviting me! This trash can's really great!

I apologize for the inconvenience earlier!

I'm gonna invite my friends into this trash can, too!

While it’s probably meant as a funny moment whose phrasing parallels Lancer’s earlier threat/invitation in the Field of Hopes and Dreams, it’s probably not just that. (Toby Fox made Deltarune, and he thinks of everything.)

Inescapable Relationship

But what if Lightners don't like this relationship?

They may not have a choice, if they cannot turn the fulfillment effect off. Indeed, they may not even be able to ask for help without Darkners considering the Lightner-Darkner relationship.

Some characters seem to know Kris and Susie are Lightners without being told by other characters who know, or figuring it out by process of elimination. Namely, Top Chef, a Rudinn fanning Susie, and Jevil. The last is especially interesting, since Jevil would logically be isolated from everyone, and so couldn’t be told a physical description of Kris and Susie. The fact Lancer attacks Susie and Kris even before Ralsei speaks of the prophecy and identifies them as Lightners suggests he, too, can identify them as Lightners. As the characters have nothing in common, it's possible Darkners can detect which people are Lightners.

On the other hand, Top Chef, some Jigsawries, and some Rudinns identify Susie only as a “beast”. It’s possible they have such high expectations of how Lightners act that they have trouble identifying Lightners as such when they are aggressive.

Conclusion

In conclusion, it seems Darkners are, overall, strongly inclined to a subservient relationship of dubious consent to Lightners, and Lightners cannot escape this unequal, worshipful relationship.

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Made with the help of Ihasafandom and Batter-Sempai.

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