#Does Sansa poison Sweetrobin

[agentrouka-blog]

Hiiiiiiii :3 I’m here with another stupid (😎) ask :33

What do you think of Sansa’s line “my father and I have other concerns” when she and Maester Colemon are talking about giving Sweetrobin sweet milk. Maester Colemon objects to Sansa’s demand that SR be given sweetmilk again when going down the mountain. She’s pretty adamant about SR sweetmilk even as Maester Colemon shows concerns about nosebleeds. Many have theorised this as Sansa knowingly poisoning SR and has been touted as the Sansa = villain (🙄) theory by the antis pretty steadfastly. Does Sansa know about poisoning SR? What other concerns do she and LF have? Is she actually poisoning SR or is she just irritated with him and wants him to shut up?

Hello!

Neither. She's genuinely concerned with Sweetrobin's future as Lord of the Vale, after GRRM has taken care to insert not one but two shaking fits into the previous chapters that leave him incapacitated and soiled, and which are generally treated with "medicine" just as harsh or worse, like high level narcotics, alcohol or leeching and bleeding. .

This stuff is rightfully seen as an improvement. He's awake, calm, not losing blood or ingesting addictive substances.

And while he hedges and mutters, Colemon never comes right out and states "It could kill him". He lets a distracted Alayne cut him off or trails off by himself. And he eventually relents, giving the appearance that his concerns are not that serious.

And Alayne is rightfully distracted. After a peacefully resolved siege against the rule of Littlefinger (guardian of Sweetrobin), they are coming down to spend the winter with Lord Nestor, accessible to the Vale lords (his future subjects who need to respect him) for the first time in a long time. And the descent itself is also very dangerous, as we will be shown.

“The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn.” Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert’s frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. [...] “It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time …” “Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs.” “I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep … you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?” [...] “Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.” “You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

(AFFC, Alayne II)

That's his future she is trying to protect. Not to mention, this is before she ever learns about Harry the Heir. Why on earth would she support poisoning him, when Littlefinger's protection of her depends on his role as Sweetrobin's guardian?

This is the same Sansa that is planning his new bodyguard crew in her TWOW sample chapter, who considers what his future wife will love about him, the same Sansa whose gentle care even Colemon acknowledges helps Sweetrobin calm himself without medicine. No, she is not knowingly poisoning the kid.

(Also, Maester Colemon may well be playing his own game, giving him antidotes or refusing to administer doses, depending on how you want to interpret the fact that Sweetrobin still suffers a shaking spell on the mountain, and the "vile" substance mixed into his milk without explanation.)

#sansa stark #alayne stone #sweetrobin #maester colemon #sweetsleep #rouka ask

[jackoshadows]

Sorry to send you a sansa ask lol I was just wondering if you could help me out. I'm trying to understand why people say sansa is a literal child right now but they also want her to be queen in the end. Are they assuming we will have a big time skip? I mean, if she should be excused for being dumb because she is a child then why do they want her to be queen, wouldn't that make her situation worse?

Welcome to Schrodinger's Sansa!! It's an asoiaf fandom phenomenon where the character of Sansa Stark is simultaneously many things at the same time.

No, they are not expecting time skips. They are arguing that Sansa is simultaneously both very smart and also she's a little child unable to understand when adults tell her things.

Exhibit A:

Linking to this essay because it's often send to me in discussions about Sansa being very smart.

But there’s no reason the readership should share those views. Sansa is a very clever individual who makes increasingly good use of several skills she started the series with, and develops greatly as an observer and an actor over the course of the story.

Same person then writing about Sansa pushing the Maester to drug SweetRobin with the dangerous SweetSleep despite the Maester warning her that it has long term consequences for SweetRobin's health:

I’ve said before that I don’t think Maester Colemon is doing nearly enough to actually explain the problem with sweetsleep to Sansa, so I’ll have none of that either, thank you. She’s thirteen with no grounding in any sort of natural science whatsoever;

More broadly, do we expect thirteen-year-olds to be able to take full responsibility for another’s medical care? Do we expect them to have a sophisticated understanding of, say, heavy metal poisoning, or prescription drug abuse? Even with modern resources? Sansa, who cannot head off to wikipedia and start researching for herself, is in a situation where she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know.

Sansa does not have wikipedia and therefore cannot double check on what a doctor is telling her about a drug is still one of the funniest things I have read on here about the character 🤣, right up there with Sansa being the 'embodiment of hope for the future' and 'flames coming off the side of the face' for a bnf when a blogger called out Sansa for bullying and mocking Arya's appearance.

Again, keep in mind that Maester Coleman is Westeros' version of a physician, a doctor who treats the sick. This doctor is telling Sansa all this in the text:

Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk,” she told the maester. “That will stop him from shaking on the journey down.”

“He had a cup not three days past,” Colemon objected.

“And wanted another last night, which you refused him.”

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time …”

I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep… you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose? I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast… is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent? Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise… music. Music frightens him”

“This descent… my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy.

And then when he gives her a final warning, she threatens him with Littlefinger because 'father and I have larger concerns' than SR's health and well being.

Very well.�� They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns” - Alayne, AFfC

This is what happens when fans self-insert and project onto a character and rely on fan made headcanons instead of actually interacting with the canonical text. They want her to be flawless, therefore she's a naive, innocent little baby. The same consideration is never afforded to the other children, even Arya who is two years younger to Sansa. And yet if one looks at their character endgames, Arya is always an assistant to Sansa, there to give her the information while clever Sansa puts together and uses the information to rule.

They want Ned Stark and Maester Coleman to explain stuff to Sansa like this for her to understand what they are telling her:

And yet she is also the smartest, most cleverest character in the series - smarter than Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, LF etc.

One of the reasons for why we get so many of these bnfs thinking that 'Sansa Smart' will be queen/lady of WF and at the same time arguing that Sansa is naive/innocent/a little child is because they see her as this flawless symbol of kindness and compassion.

I already wrote about this here that in fandoms like asoiaf, virtues like compassion and kindness is seen through the lens of white, western liberalism and traditional femininity. I wrote that long ago and now with the rise of tradwives, it's even more relevant to this discussion.

It has always baffled me that the character trait most often highlighted in fandom for classist and sexist Sansa is kindness and compassion simply because fandom thinks that being polite and having good manners = being kind and compassionate.

This results in posts like this where they argue that Sansa is actually being kind to Jon Snow by treating him like a bastard when the author through Jon Snow is actually being critical of the character!!

Remember this is the quote from the books!

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. - Jon, AGoT

We also have a bnf chiming in and agreeing that yes, Sansa was indeed being considerate of Jon's feelings here!

Even Jaime Lannister has had moments of kindness, where he tries to help Pia. And yet the only character in the series on whom these character traits are constantly pushed onto is Sansa Stark.

Sansa can actually be an interesting character if her fans let her be one. She's not a little child who does not understand what Ned and Maester Coleman tell her. She does understand and chooses to ignore it for her own selfish reasons - marrying Joffrey, whom she loved, and becoming queen or wanting LF's plans in the Vale to succeed. That's why she feels 'as wicked as Arya' when she goes and tattles all of Ned's plans to Cersei. That's why she thinks that while the Maester cared for the boy, she and LF had larger (more important) concerns.

Sansa is interesting in the way she deflects and refuses to acknowledge the unpleasant truths before her and lives in this alternate reality where everything is fine. She ignores Joff's sadism because it clashes with her idea of noble, beautiful princes. She ignores what is being done to poor SweetRobin because she thinks it is essential to her own survival that LF's plans succeed.

The reason her stans refuse to dig deeper into the character other than extremes of naive, innocent child and smartest character ever is because Sansa would then be as flawed as Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran etc. and they don't want that for her. They want her to be special in some way and this is it.

Arya killed the guard to survive - and she's portrayed as too damaged to ever live happily with her family. Jon and Dany face hard choices of doing the pragmatic or the morally right thing and are often called out on those choices, especially Dany. Pretty much most of our protagonists engage in morally grey actions.

And yet Sansa fans insist on her being this flawless character- it's everyone else' fault except hers. It's Ned's fault, it's Coleman's fault - they didn't explain properly. It's Arya's fault for trying to help Mycah, Arya should have tried to build a relationship with Sansa. Suddenly it's Sansa who is the outcast in Winterfell and Arya the favorite. Suddenly Sansa is Ned like and Arya 'bites people like Catelyn'.

This leads to her being interpreted as this idiot who cannot understand when a doctor is telling her a drug is dangerous. Which then clashes with their essays about 'Sansa Smart' and how she is going to be the best queen ever and change the system and bring about women's rights and all that.

It's the same with this 'pawn to player' stuff they write for the character. They expect her to be this smart player of the game and at the same time remain this good, idealistic, 'kind and compassionate' leader... How?! LF and Varys did not get to where they are by being good people. Sansa has to get her hands dirty, be ruthless and often times not be concerned about the well being of others - just as she does with poor SweetRobin. And yet her fans think she will become LF level of game player and do it while being kind.

Especially baffling because GRRM is deconstructing all these tropes of good knights and kind ladies. Brienne of Tarth is the embodiment of the perfect knight and yet she is not what one would expect a knight to be. This was part of Sansa's arc of growth - where she sees and experiences up close the brutality and lack of morals of these knights in KL.

The Northerners are loyal to Ned Stark, not because he was some beacon of kindness and compassion or because he had good manners and said please and thank you but because he ruled according to the laws of the land and enforced those laws in a just manner and was therefore an honorable Lord. He beheaded those who committed crimes, he put down rebellions, he took child hostages and he also kept the peace of the land.

And Ned Stark was as flawed as all the other characters. So this insistence that Sansa has to remain this caricature of 'kindness and compassion' - even if it's canonically untrue considering bigotry is not kind - is bizarre and one of the main reasons for why we have Schrodinger's Sansa. I can't wait to see all the excuses and justifications bnfs will come up with if we get TWoW and Sansa is doing all sorts of morally grey shite and going along with LF's plans.

#asks

[leulah]

I saw some posts talking about Sansa poisoning Sweetrobin and how its proves she is evil and heartless and my three takes on that is:

1. I do not believe she is aware of what she is doing. Sansa does not have a knowledge of medicine and doesn’t know how much is too much. It is a medicine that helps SR through his very bad fits, and simply she is acting as the dutiful daughter to LF. She does what she is told.

2. Even if she did have a suspicion what could she do? If she goes running to the Vale knights either she isn’t believed or she is and loses her one protector in Westeros. Sansa does not fully trust LF but she still needs him whether she likes it or not.

3. And like idk even if she was willfully poisoning him I wouldn’t care lol. Everyone else can murder in this series but Sansa can’t? I think she deserves a little murder as a treat. 

#capitalization today because i am typing on my laptop #sansa stark #pro sansa stark #sweetrobin #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #holly talks #mine

[esther-dot]

Apparently Sansa is 'most classist and most white character' in asoiaf. Add ableist and abusive also. If it's not good enough add a murderer to it. Sansa antis are so blind in their hatred for Sansa that they always over-exaggerate her flaws or twist them to make her sounds worst then actual criminals. If they can't take criticism of their faves then they should left Sansa alone.

I’m finally responding to asks again, anon. Sorry it’s taken me so long!

Discussion of Sansa’s flaws has caused some discord in the Sansa fandom because there are a lot of different takes on specific lines, however, I agree with you that antis have taken things ludicrously far in their efforts to prove she’s a baddie. There is a double standard in which The Hound slaughtering one child and intimidating, threatening, and intending to rape another child (Sansa), doesn’t mean he’s a monster, but Sansa saying a mean thing to her sister makes her evil. Make that make sense. 😂

Broadly speaking, I think the difference between anti Sansa takes and anti [insert fandom fav] is that usually we point to an action and say it’s so bad it indicates a specific role for them. Like, “You know, murdering your ex lover and wanting to rape your sister makes you a bad person, Tyrion” or “Hey, burning a person alive and profiting off of slavery feels like non-hero-y actions, Dany” whereas anti Sansa people can’t really argue that fighting with your sister makes you a villain so they’re forced to push it and argue, “no, she DOES know that they’re poisoning sweetrobin...” We don’t have the confirmation, there are no objective “this is wrong” signs, but they know deep down Sansa is evil so they insert into the story knowledge and intent to argue that she is. They’re free to do that, and I happily block them because if we’re expected to ignore what is explicitly stated while they get to write things into the text that don’t exist...well, we actually are reading different books!

So (again, broadly, there are instances of disagreement between well-intentioned readers), criticism of one character is based in what the text presents and the other is based in the readers feelings and there isn’t really a common ground to engage on because I don’t share their feelings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I have no idea what they might mean by Sansa being the “most white” when I would assume that would have to apply to all Stark kids equally? And if we mean that in a non literal way, but a broader “she is privileged in her world and benefits from that privilege”…well, again, so do the other Starks. We’re even shown that Jon, in spite of how he has suffered for being a bastard led a privileged life too, so I don’t buy that this is a valid complain against Sansa specifically.

A lot of fans have addressed the classist issue and I think the fandom overall does a bad job of accepting certain aspects of the world. It matters to Jon that his mother is a lady. Why? Because he’s in a classist society and he accepts the terms of his world even though he as an individual is a good person who does challenge some norms. He’s still a product of his world though. Being a bastard eats him alive for a reason. Trying to act like Sansa is particularly heinous in that regard is silly. Arya is a standout in rejecting certain norms and I think that’s great, but the contrast is part of the representation of two different types of women who both suffer in their world. The idea isn’t that Sansa should be Arya or that Arya should be Sansa. The author is talking about much bigger and less sexist ideas there. And while Arya will ultimately be free from the burdens of society, I think Sansa’s position within society will allow her to make changes that benefit others. As for their accusations that Sansa is ableist, a while ago I wrote this about Sansa and Willas:

She goes from asking if he’s a knight as her first reaction to saying it doesn’t matter about his leg. She chooses to not be fixated on it and reshapes her daydreams to accommodate him.

[...]

and sure, it’s a romanticized version of her life with him, but that’s just who Sansa is, and who she isn’t is someone who would hate a person or be cruel because she is ableist. She is cold to Tyrion because his family murdered hers and she was forced to marry him. I’d even say this whole section is a glimpse of her attempting to reprogram herself in-spite of the ableism of their world. (link)

She wanted to marry Willas, and in spite of being forced to marry Tyrion she felt sympathy for him. In spite of her own discomfort with certain aspects of sweetrobin’s behavior, she tries to comfort him and improve his life. People do not need to like her, but their hatred really has made them distort her beyond all recognition. Reading the books, Sansa seemed particularity compassionate to me and there were lots of moments that pointed to this, but perhaps the most significant is her knowing she should fall into the norms of her world and hate the entire family of those who have killed hers, but she can’t, instead she helps

I think any honest reader can see what the author is saying here. Sansa isn’t soft, weak, or stupid. Sansa is kind, compassionate, and brave. She is the kind of person we should want to influence their world because she would make it a better place. Refusing to see that and creating other accusations to lob at her means misunderstanding not only Sansa, but a huge part of the story.

#ask dot #sansa discourse #< tag to filter if you don’t want to see these

[gendrie]

eddard x

3 kingsguard who are supposed to protect the king? are ready to die for jon? i guess he is going to end up being “legitimate” but lyanna/rhaegar being married feels cheap idk

dawn - the coolest sword we never get to see 

all this male posturing while lyanna bleeds out 

“I have never seen such anger in a girl“ i love her your honor

rhaegar naming it the tower of joy is gag worthy 

bobby b is such a useless bum. he did no justice!!!! but a good character tbh

even drugged up and with a shattered leg and his own family at great risk ned still remembers dany

catelyn vii

theres a lack of warmth b/w lysa and brynden bc she really only cares for sweetrobin and petyr. she’s so isolated from her family

a paragraph with the words “poison” “natural death” and “lord robert” 

petyr got his ass beat 

arya and catelyn watching a trial by combat parallels. the dudes they hate win and get cut loose.

jon v

they got chickpeas on the wall! quick make these dudes some falafel 

i really do not find jon all that compelling but he’s already proving he has what it takes to lead the wall and ultimately westeros against the walkers

tyrion vi

the tysha thing is so fucked up. 

“I would have killed the man who did that to me." even bronn realizes who the villain is in that story 

tyrion promising the vale of the arryn to the clansman hm hm hmmmm feels like unfinished business. it’d be crazy if he returned to the vale while sansa is still there

eddard xi

everybody looks down on edmure but he’s a good egg

all this about the mountain terrorizing these villagers and arya will be among them soon enough

pycelle drop dead challenge 

the creation of the brotherhood with banners!!!! a group founded by ned and are currently under lady stoneheart’s command. i just wanna see arya complete the circle by leading them herself to do justice as was their mission. we got a taste of it at the stoney sept but i want more. 

sansa iii

littlefinger’s presence is sansa’s storyline is already so significant

sansa is more meanspirited about jeyne p. than arya is 

and she called jory ugly for no reason lol 

and she blames mycah for his own murder

she is acting just like lysa: vain, mean, hysterical, blinded by infatuation, and disconnected from her family 

ned said “say nothing of this” but sansa heard “tell cersei everything”

arya apologizes, tries to make amends, and reaches out to comfort sansa. sansa does nothing but insult her. which wouldnt be a big deal if sansa actually regretted it but grrm gives us nothing 

#asoiaf reread #this is excessive but i didnt feel like breaking it up so

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Stupid insane bitch, in what world Adelaide Kane isn't conventionally attractive ??? Have you watched Reign ? In what world Olivia Hussey as freaking Juliet Capulet isn't feminine ??? Tell me repugnant cockroach, can we compare a little girl/teenage girl and a grown woman ?? Are Arya and Lyanna infinitely more beautiful than the Targaryens ?

I'm insane? You made a dummy account in order to send me this utter piece of filthy trash. Not only are YOU the BITCH. But YOU are also the INSANE piece of fucking shit in my inbox. Are you really so insecure over your stupid camera of a fave that you need to resort to being a fucking coward by making a dummy account in order to send me hate mail, considering I don't accept anons? How fucking pathetic are you?

You know what? I'm not going to answer your fucking insane questions because I never said any of those things. How about you go back obsessing over your self-insert now and not actually enjoying the fandom experience? You do know the only thing Sansa has going for her is her looks right? That's why you all obsess over how beautiful she is, and we all know it. Sansa is nothing but a camera. She may be pretty on the outside but she's ugly on the inside. She's nothing but an empty headed, vain, classist, selfish, apathetic, willfully ignorant, and cruel little girl who didn't care one lick that Joffrey tried to kill Arya or that Jaime attacked and injured Ned. She's also a traitor to her own family. I hope Sweetrobin pushes her off a cliff, or that Littlefinger uses her as a convenient scapegoat if Sweetrobin dies considering Sansa is the one pushing the poison down Sweetrobin's throat, knowing it's harming him but "father and I have larger concerns". I'll honestly laugh. And you know what? You all brought it on yourselves. Sansa used to be one of my favorite characters on GOT, and I was pretty neutral about her when I read the books, but you Stansa's have made me fucking hate her guts. I hope you all are patting yourselves on the back for alienating most of the fandom.

Here's some food for thought. Arya and Dany are GRRM's most favorite female characters. Arya has the most chapters of any female character and Dany has the most word count of any female character. Arya features in every book. And while Sansa had one more chapter than Arya in AGOT, Arya features pretty central of 2 of Sansa's POV's and Arya has more of a central focus that Sansa in AGOT in other character's POV's, like Jon and Ned. Arya and Dany also don't feature as a camera and they are active participants in their stories, unlike passive, dumb Sansa. And may I remind you about how the direwolves foreshadow the Stark who named them. Arya named her's after a powerful warrior queen and Nymeria is currently leading a pack of a hundred wolves in the Riverlands, ultimately foreshadowing Arya's future leadership arc. However, Sansa named her wolf Lady and Lady died due to her not telling the truth about what happened, y'know, because Sansa's a liar who can even lie to herself! (Isn't she so talented?) Hm...I wonder what this is foreshadowing for your fave? Definitely not what GOT gave you all.

Seriously though, why are you Stansa's all so pressed over fucking canon? Arya is canonically pretty and growing into a wild beauty. And "wild beauty" does not mean "unconventional". It means "natural" and "effortless". But sure, go ahead and cry about Arya being canonically beautiful. Show how fucking shallow you are. Arya stans aren't over here dismissing canon and calling Sansa physically ugly, so why are you dismissing canon to call Arya physically ugly? Is it because you are trying to condone Sansa's behavior when she bullied Arya? You think Arya had it coming to her if she was ugly? If so, it goes to show that you're a fucking bully as well, which obviously, considering you are sending hate mail with personal attacks against me over a fucking fictional character! How pathetic. But what's really pathetic is not accepting the character Sansa really is, which drives you all into frenzies of insecurity because deep down you know that Sansa isn't important, that she doesn't have a leadership arc, that she won't be accepted again by the North (like you really think the North will like her when they find out that she was the one to snitch on Ned, or are you going to deny that Sansa's guilty of this despite GRRM saying that she shares in the responsibility of Ned being captured and killed and the murder of Ned's household?), and that she will never be an endgame queen. Like just admit it. Your fave is nothing special and it spooks you to your very core because you overly identify with canon Sansa, but just like canon Sansa, you're delusional and always play the victim, and try to pretend you're the "good girl". Honestly I hope you get the help you need because you clearly need it for camping out on blogs that you know will upset you and then react like a thirteen year old child. Go outside and touch some grass for goodness sakes, before you end up being committed you white bitch.

I hope this reply makes you seethe so much that you puke.

[fedonciadale]

1/ I’m a bit confused about the whole “Sweetrobin” is being poisoned”-thing. By whom? I mean, in all practicality who is supposed to be doing the poisoning at the moment? We have master Colemon who is reluctant to give more sweetsleep, cautioning Sansa in vague terms. LF has been away from the Eyrie. Sansa certainly isn’t slipping him anything. So who would be doing it? It’s clear that LF is displaying disregard for SR’s physical health, showing us that he probably won’t need him around

2/ much longer. But who is supposed to be actively poisoning him now? Certain people even claim Sansa is knowingly participating in poisoning SR, and I just can’t see anyone who would have an interest in him dying yet, and I can’t see how master Colemon helping LF slowly poisoning him corresponds with him warning Sansa/Alayne about giving him more.

The poison everyone seems to think will put Sweetrobin in, is indeed the sweetsleep. To me it is perfectly clear that there are three parties involved here, that have different agendas, Colemon, who is the maester and whose interest is foremost the health of his lord. Petyr, whose actions we only see through Sansa’s eyes and who uses Sweetrobin to fasten his hold on the Vale. We can assume that he might be interested in offing Sweetrobin, but only after he has established his power. Sweetrobin is a spoilt child and might be easier to handle than Harry the Heir. Anyway, I would argue that whatever Littlefinger’s plans, poisoning Sweetrobin must be done very stealthily, if he wants to do it, and I would argue that for now, Littlefinger does not want to kill him, not yet. As for Sansa, she obviously cares for Sweetrobin, but she also feels the duty to do what her father wants of her.

Then there is the medical situation of Sweetrobin. He has ‘fits’ which probably means that he is an epileptic.This is a danger to his life and to his position: He can hurt himself (and others) when he shakes and it is quite clear, that all of the persons involved are keenly aware that the authority of the Lord of the Vale would be shaken, if it were common knowledge that he is weak. That can’t be in Littlefinger’s interest and it can’t be in Sansa’s interest. Sweetrobin likes her, he even has something like a crush, and his affection is a protection for Sansa. So, apart from the fact, that she seems to have a soft spot for him, it is not in Sansa’s interest to kill him.

So, a medicine that helps with the fits seems like a good solution, doesn’t it? Only from what we learn from Maester Colemon, sweetsleep a) creates an addictions and b) has nasty side effects and c) loses some of his effectiveness over time. So, it’s not just “Give Sweetrobin his medicine and everything is o.k.”... So, people who are the caretakers of Sweetrobin have to weigh their options - and there is not necessarily a good solution.

But let’s look at the evidence :

AFFC: Alayne I:

The maester combed his fingers through his hair, dribbling globs of porridge on the floor. "Lady Lysa would give his lordship her breast whenever he grew overwrought. Archmaester Ebrose claims that mother's milk has many heathful properties."         

"Is that your counsel, maester? That we find a wet nurse for the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale? When shall we wean him, on his wedding day? That way he can move directly from his nurse's nipples to his wife's." Lord Petyr's laugh made it plain what he thought of that. "No, I think not. I suggest you find another way. The boy is fond of sweets, is he not?"    

"Sweets?" said Colemon.         

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."                 

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."

"A pinch," Lord Petyr said, "before you bring him forth to meet the lords."  

"As you command, my lord." The maester hurried out, his chain clinking softly with every step.

So, this is Littlefinger. He is the one who suggests the sweetsleep. We can assume that he knows very well about the properties of the medicine. He is the one, that instigated the poisoning of Jon Arryn and Joffrey after all. To Littlefinger the medicine is ideal. An drugged and probably addicted Sweetrobin is that much easier to handle and he even has the ready excuse that it is necessary to ensure Sweetrobin’s dignity. I don’t think it is conclusive evidence that Littlefinger wants to poison Sweetrobin in the long run though. It is possible, but not conclusive. Anyway, I think poisoning Sweetrobin is one of the options Littlefinger is open to.

Now, let’s get to the crucial Alayne chapter.

AFFC, Alayne II:

"Good. That is good." His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. "This descent . . . my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered."                 

"The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn." Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert's frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

Petyr Baelish was clear across the Vale, though, attending Lord Lyonel Corbray at his wedding. A widower of forty-odd years, and childless, Lord Lyonel was to wed the strapping sixteen-year-old daughter of a rich Gulltown merchant. Petyr had brokered the match himself. The bride's dower was said to be staggering; it had to be, since she was of common birth. Corbray's vassals would be there, with the Lords Waxley, Grafton, Lynderly, some petty lords and landed knights . . . and Lord Belmore, who had lately reconciled with her father. The other Lords Declarant were expected to shun the nuptials, so Petyr's presence was essential.         

Alayne understood all that well enough, but it meant that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. "Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk," she told the maester. "That will stop him from shaking on the journey down."    

"He had a cup not three days past," Colemon objected.

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."         

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."                 

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

 "I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"                 

"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

"I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast . . . is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent?"

"It will not be a large feast," she assured him. "No more than forty guests. Lord Nestor and his household, the Knight of the Gate, a few lesser lords and their retainers . . ."

"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."

"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep. "Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing." What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . "Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."

So, we learn several thing in this chapter. It looks like the one time, Littlefinger ordered Coleman to give sweetsleep to Sweetrobin was not the only time. We do not know who gave Sweetrobin a cup ‘three days past’, but we know by Sweetrobin’s asking for it, that he is already addicted and by Coleman’s refusing him, that he is worried about this.

Now, the situation is very dire. Sweetrobin has to descend from the mountain, and Sansa and Coleman are at odds how to do this. Coleman wants to bundle him up - which is very undignified, and Sansa wants to protect his dignity, at least in part because Littlefinger told her so. So, this is a hard decision: Bundle him up like a sack, which will hurt his dignity and endanger his position up to a point where his life might be in danger, or drug him just this once more.... Sansa opts for drugging him just once more, and as an afterthought twice more, because Littlefinger has already arranged for a feast, where Sweetrobin must ‘perform’ as a lord. This is why some people think Sansa is in on a plan to off Sweetrobin and browbeats the Maester into giving Sweetrobin more drugs, knowing full well, what it means....

I beg to differ. I think it is easily feasible, that Sansa wants Sweetrobin to keep his dignity and that she finds herself between a rock and a hard place on what to decide. Because there is other evidence that a) Sansa knows Sweetrobin very well, and the boy wants to be brave and a knight and probably does not like being bundled up unconscious and drugged and b) that Sansa cares for Sweetrobin very much.

If you look further at the talk of Sansa and Coleman it becomes also clear, that Sansa does know him better than his own Maester. Sansa knows that Sweetrobin detests singing, not music per se. She knows his dreams of the winged knight and comes up with the idea to have a guard for Sweetrobin that alludes to his favourite stories and when they actually do the descent this happens:

"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."         

She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."                 

"Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe.

Sansa risks her own life to bring Sweetrobin down the mountain. She would have been much safer if she would have walked on her own and pass the narrow, but she helps Sweetrobin across. If she wanted to kill him, that would have been the moment. Just send him over the narrow on his own. He would have fallen and died and nobody could have blamed her.

So, to me the idea that Sansa wants Sweetrobin dead is ridiculous. If she wanted that, she could have done it a thousand times and none being the wiser. No, she takes a hard decision to bring him down safely and to leave him some of the dignity, the boy definitely wants to have. You might argue that she should discuss the options with Sweetrobin, but Sweetrobin does not like to talk about his weaknesses, and he is still a child. Although Sansa is also a child she makes a decision here, which takes medical evidence into consideration but also the wishes of the patient. I’m sorry, I can’t see any fault with that. Sweetrobin himself wants to have agency and be a knight. It is the Maester who thinks only about his health and not also about his mental health. What would it do to him, if he had been bundled up like a sack?

You could argue, that Sansa should have called off the feast after the descent, to give Sweetrobin a rest, and yes, I would agree, but Sansa as the daughter of a lord also knows how very important appearances are.

So, Sansa is not about to kill Sweetrobin and if he dies, she’ll be devestated, I think. I would also argue, that even Littlefinger is not after Sweetrobin’s life, at least not yet.

Again, looking at the evidence from the books, I fail to see the scheming bitch Sansa haters see in every line of Sansa chapters....

Sansa haters will be my villain origin story....

Thanks for the ask!

#Sansa Stark #Sansa Stark defence squad #Littlefinger #Sweetrobin #Maester Coleman #anon ask #Does Sansa poison Sweetrobin #No and no

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

Hey maid ,you said that Maester Coleman might not be giving sweetsleep to SweetRobin .

In Alayne II AFFC , Alayne instructs Colemon to give SweetRobin sweetsleep twice . Once that is when they are leaving the Eyrie for the Winter and next during the feast . These are 2 dosages that she orders after Colemon tells her that SweetRobin was given Sweetsleep three days before . So that is 3 dosages in truth if the Maester ends up giving him the sweetsleep before leaving the Eyrie and later during the feast though it's never mentioned later that he does it . From the waif, we know that 3 pinches cause death and that Sweetsleep never leaves the body . Idk how much of a time difference is there between Alayne II AFFC and Alayne I TWOW but shouldn't the kid be dead by now or Coleman isn't actually giving him ? Now it could either way and Robert Arryn might end up biting the dust in Alayne II or Alayne III TWOW .

Hello Witch!! Yes, if Coleman was giving Sweetrobin as much sweetsleep as Littlefinger ordered him to, the kid would be already dead. Good thing he isn’t. First things first, is implied that three pinches of sweetsleep is the accute lethal dosage for a man, not a child:

"A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end." (AFFC Cat of the Canals)

I’m guessing the waif doesn’t explain how much poison she needs to kill a child or a teenager because the amount of poison needed to kill a man will also kill them. No kill like overkill, I guess. If children need a smaller dosage it would explain why Colemon reacted like this:

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch... perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try..."

"A pinch," Lord Petyr said, "before you bring him forth to meet the lords." (AFFC Alayne I)  

Coleman’s body language is clear. He’s sacred, but he still tries to reduce the amount of sweetsleep to “a small pinch.” Littlefinger ignores him, either because he’s trying to kill the kid, or because he actually doesn’t know what he’s doing.

A pinch of sweetsleep is enough to knock out a grown man for aproximately eight hours, it would surely do the same to a small child, if not worse, but there’s no mention of Sweetrobin being sleepy during the meeting, or of him falling asleep. The Lords Declarent already think Littlefinger is abusing the kid, they would notice is he seems to be drunk. Sansa’s POV specifically tell us Sweetrobin doesn’t sleep well and wanders around the castle at night.

So either Colemon isn’t giving the kid anything, or is giving him enough to stop the shaking and disregarding Littlefinger’s suggested dosage. The later is still dangerous, because the chronic toxicity has a smaller threshold to build up than in an adult, but better than obeying and getting the kid killed.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #maester colemon #robin arryn #anti petyr baelish

[istumpysk]

Regarding the dark Sansa take, the most that antis can come up with is SweetRobin's poisoning.

The funny thing is even if she is doing it, even then Grrm has left it in ambiguity considering how much information she has. There is no concrete evidence in the text itself compared to other characters' darkest acts/thoughts. There is no ambiguity to Tyrion's dark thoughts about raping her sister and even raping the Sunset Girl. He clearly spells it out. There is no ambiguity to Arya's problematic death list. He clearly spells it out. He literally writes a whole chapter dedicated to Daenerys' fall . He spells it out how taking over someone's body is an abomination .

With Sansa even in her internal thoughts, you don't have a line like " He needs to die so I can marry Harry " . Infact we have her wishing that SweetRobin's wife would love her hair and a group of knights would protect him and give him confidence. If I really wanted someone to die , I would never try to enlist people to form some sort of an elite bodyguard gang for them.

The day the text spells it out that Sansa wants to gather power even at the cost of her cousins' death , something like " His death needs to wait. Now is not the right time to have the boy succumb to poison as Father (LF) said. The marriage with Harrold may take some time " , I will completely accept Psycho Dark Sansa and probably would jump the ship to other fandom 😆. Till then I think I have put my money correct on which less problematic character I have to stan.

There is a reason why Grrm called guys like Jaime and Sandor Clegane villains because killing a kid and having no remorse about it is very very problematic and is not something one can just recover from . There is no coming back. There is a reason why Grrm called Arya a psychopath even though I disagree with him . Heck even the 1993 outline which doesn't paint Sansa in the best light, still doesn't classify her as an antagonist or a dark character. On the contrary, it (wrongfully ) accuses her of making bad choices .At the end of the day even AGOT Sansa ( who people try to paint as a villain ) is not that problematic. One can criticize her classism, inability to see things, ableism and guess what even then none of these traits are strong enough to gurantee her as a dark character or a making of a villain. Those are prejudices and something one can learn to recover from . Dark Sansa is a take popularized by LF stans who think both of them are destined together and Arya stans who think Sansa has the same disturbing dark monologue for a child of her age like Arya.

All very well said, anon.

Whenever our little Starklings succumb to their darker impulses, there’s always an underlying temptation of what they want most in life, apart from their family and home.

Why does Bran wear Hodor's skin?

No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for awhile. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

He wants to be strong again. He wants to walk.

Why does Arya incessantly recite a prayer list of people to kill? Why does Arya join the Faceless Men?

Each night before sleep, she murmured her prayer into her pillow. "Ser Gregor," it went. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." She would have whispered the names of the Freys of the Crossing too, if she had known them. One day I'll know, she told herself, and then I'll kill them all.

No whisper was too faint to be heard in the House of Black and White. "Child," said the kindly man one day, "what are those names you whisper of a night?"

…

"They're people I hate. I want them to die."

"We hear many such prayers in this House."

"I know," said Arya. Jaqen H'ghar had granted three of her prayers once. All I had to do was whisper . . .

"Is that why you have come to us?" the kindly man went on. "To learn our arts, so you may kill these men you hate?"

Arya did not know how to answer that. "Maybe."

A broken sense of justice. She wants to avenge her family, end her pain, and fill the void that’s consuming her. 

The problem with dark!Sansa “poisoning” Sweetrobin is that there’s no internal conflict here. Sansa quite clearly does not want Robin to die, and certainly doesn’t want to be Harry’s Lady of the Vale. Where’s the temptation? This isn’t it.

So what does Sansa want above all else?

Sansa wants to love and be loved.

How do you make that dark? How do you tap into a moral dilemma with something as pure as love? How do you create a conflict of the heart?

I have an idea.

#stumpy ask #anon #jonsa #sansa stark

[chispas-and-broken-bindings]

What Dany stans do with Dany , you do the same thing with Jon and Sansa .

Okay, nonny...I’ll admit it. I have a bad memory, so by all means pass on receipts, but in the mean time let me try and find all the times I've written about how Jon or Sansa's feelings and intentions excuse their actions (since I'm assuming you are referring to this post here).

Let's start with Sansa. 

Outside of fan-fiction, which is totally separate than canon analysis, I’ve written about Sansa Stark in the context of the books exactly once. 

While she is great and all, she’s not all that exciting for me to analyze...her potential is there, and I think her chapters are sad and lovely to read, but we’re five books in and she’s yet to have much of any power, and power is largely what I’ve been interested in examining when I have the urge to write. That being said, there is a meta or two hanging out there, written by others, about what Sansa does with the little agency she does have, and I found them to be interesting reads. Perhaps a kind soul will drop some links. 

But I digress. This is about me...and what I do with Jon and Sansa, right? 

Even in my tiny nothing post about Sansa, did I use her feelings to justify her many crimes? (Since, again, I’m assuming that is what I’m being accused of. Your ask was a bit vague, nonny. Please work on your specificity next time.) 

Well, what are her feelings? Oh yeah. She’s very upset about being forcibly married to Tyrion after spending months as a prisoner of war. What a baby. 

What are her actions? Minimizing Garlan and Leonette’s concern for her well-being by putting on a brave face and telling them she is well. Jerk.

What was my conclusion? Let me just quote myself: 

I’m sorry, but who reads passages like this and thinks, “ugh, Sansa…what a conniving villain”. I re-read the chapter where Sansa is married to Tyrion and the whole thing makes me want to cry. Also, all the kudos to Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, Leonette for making an effort to comfort a traumatized child.

I don’t know, nonny.

 If you want to use that post to write an essay about how Sansa’s courtesy is actually a cover for her great crimes of poisoning Sweetrobin and killing Mycah...by all means go for it. 

Now on to my boy, Jon. Let the evidence of favoritism commence!

I’ve definitely written more about our sad bastard in the North than I’ve written about Sansa, so I’m sure we’ll find some fruitful returns on your accusation here. 

How has one currently dead Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch fared beneath my pen? 

Well, there is the post that I cannot find because Tumblr is a black hole and I’m bad at tagging, where, if I remember correctly, I said I’d never forgive Jon Snow for what he did to Gilly and her baby.

But, without evidence, I suppose that isn’t admissable in a court of fandom discourse, is it? 

All is not lost dear nonny. Do not fear. I apparently can’t shut up about the topic. 

First, I have this ask where I must totally defend Jon because he’s obviously my fave, right? Wrong. I accuse him of hubris and abuse of power. 

Regardless of his noble intentions with the baby swap, Jon displays a lot of hubris in thinking that he can control what happens to either child afterwards, that the greatest danger is Mel’s zealotry, and that his intentions make his actions excusable. I think he is wrong on all three counts.

He abuses his power over Gilly and meddles in a situation he has no authority over because he knows he has no such power over Stannis or Mel.

Hm.

I also used this ask, about a totally different subject, to wax on about the same topic, because as I said, I can’t shut up about it (or Daario). Surely, in this one, I talk about how flawless and awesome Jon is, right? 

Oh yeah, I call him an utter ass, a potato, a manipulative little shithead, and a coward. 

But please, go on about how I give Jon a free pass. 

I’m bored now, nonny, but if you want to make this interesting with an actual rebuttal essay, where you point out all the times I’ve forgiven Jon for his misdeeds because of his lonely bastard vibes and plain-at-best looks, I’ve made the endeavor easier for you by linking out to my other mentions of Jon Snow. 

Have at them. 

Jon and Dany foil ask

What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

Qhorin and Jon by the fire

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. I and it doesn’t even mention Daario

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. II - Let’s Build a Fire & Make Speeches!

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. III - Murders & Miracles! Yay!

Thanks, I guess, for giving me an excuse to make a master post linking to my “metas” about Jon and Sansa. If you choose to return, please bring me something more interesting to chew on. I bore easily, but love to play. 

#my asks #my many crimes against sansa stark and jon snow #masterpost for all the times I've dunked on Jon #my favorite character in asoiaf #jon snow #sansa stark #chispas does a meta #or metas #I guess #chispas does a snark? #would that be more accurate? #I'm going to regret these nonsense tags when I can't find this later #if you accused me of favoring Daarion #then you'd be right nonny #bluebeard gets away with murder #fuck #I mean Daario #i hate tags

[turtle-paced]

Re. Brienne, Jaime and wildfire: Sansa/Alayne was in the room when the Maester warned Littlefinger about exceeding the use of sweetsleep. She absolutely knows what it does and what it will do to the kid.

Here’s what Arya’s been told about sweetsleep:

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness."

- Cat of the Canals, AFFC

You can see how this is actually a decent sweetsleep 101. Sweetsleep has been introduced to Arya as a poison, first up, but the Waif is also giving her quantities and matching them to effects on the human body.

By contrast, here is what Sansa’s been told about sweetsleep and/or been present in the room for when sweetsleep was discussed:

"Sweets?" said Colemon.

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch... perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try.."

- Alayne I, AFFC

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time..."

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep... you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"

- Alayne II, AFFC

Sansa’s been introduced to sweetsleep as a medicine, not a poison. Colemon has hemmed and hawed and said “I might” and “not too much,” while Sansa can see the clear positive effects in terms of calming Sweetrobin. But what’s too much, and what’s too often? What does “not leaving the flesh” mean in terms of health outcomes? Colemon’s literally trailing off right there before he hits the consequences of sweetsleep overdose and not telling her.

This is a pretty logical and reasonable train of thought from Sansa. Sweetrobin’s doctor has approved some medicine for him to take when he needs to be calmed down -> Sweetrobin needs to be calm to get off the mountain -> now is a good time for Sweetrobin to take some medicine.

Remember, Sansa has exactly zero grounding in science and medicine. The concepts and mechanics of medication are not things she’s come across before. Unlike the reader, who has access to Arya’s PoV to give them the sort of quantities that will be fatal.

Colemon says she doesn’t understand, and then he doesn’t explain what it is she doesn’t understand. I think all evidence points to Sansa not knowing exactly what risks she’s running with Sweetrobin’s health and that she is unaware that Littlefinger is pressuring Colemon into overprescribing sweetsleep, to Sweetrobin’s detriment.

#ASoIaF #valyrianscrolls #sansa stark #a feast for crows

[jackoshadows]

There are many people in the fandom who claim Sansa is the one who resembles Ned the most out of her siblings. Do you think that’s true?

I have always disagreed with this fandom viewpoint. I would think that logically the characters who resemble Ned the most would be the characters who value Ned’s wisdom and advice, and that would be Arya Stark and Jon Snow.

Sansa and Ned are very different in terms of personality and characterization. Ned loves his family above all else. He sacrifices his honor for his sister and takes in her baby despite it being a stain on his honor. His love for his sister outweighs his friendships with Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn.  Sansa, on the other hand, keeps supporting Joffrey over her sister every single time and puts her little sister in danger by telling Cersei that it's Arya who is the traitor.

Ned confesses to treason to save his daughter’s life. The only reason he warns Cersei of the danger to her and her children was because he didn’t want Myrcella and Tommen to suffer the same fate as Elia’s babies. The only reason Sansa tattles all of Ned's plans to Cersei ending up with the girls - Arya, Jeyne and Sansa herself - trapped in KL is because she wanted to remain in KL, marry Joffrey and become queen.

Ned’s act was selfless, putting himself and his family in grave danger to save his enemy’s children. Sansa’s act is selfish, putting her father and her family in grave danger because she wanted to become queen.

In the post I made about  Ned’s friendship with Robert Baratheon, I have seen comparisons made between Ned’s blindspot for Robert and Sansa’s blindspot towards Joffrey. I disagree!

Ned’s friendship with Robert was despite him knowing that Robert is not a good person. Ned condemns Robert for supporting the deaths of Elia and her children. He resigns as Hand when Robert continues to press for Dany’s assassination. It’s in Ned’s own POV chapter that he critiques Robert as a person. Ned’s opinion was pretty much that Robert sucks big time but he’s my friend so I love him.

Sansa on the other hand does not acknowledge Joffrey’s sadistic villainy even when it’s right in front of her, because she wants to marry him and become queen. She’s willfully blind to everything he does. Instead she blames Arya and Mycah - the innocents in this - for all of Joffrey’s wrong doing.

At first she thought she hated [Joffrey] for what they’d done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate - Sansa, AGoT

In fact, rather than being similar to Ned, Sansa is more similar to her mother Catelyn here. Just like Catelyn blames and hates an innocent child Jon Snow for something Ned did because she wants to love her husband and be happy with him, similarly Sansa hates Arya for something Joffrey did because she loves Joffrey, wants to marry him and become a queen who can do things like order Arya around.

Notice also in the quote above, how at this point of time, Sansa also blames the queen - Cersei - for Lady’s death and thinks on how Cersei and Arya were the ones to hate. Later, when she wants to prevent Ned from taking her away from KL, she secretly goes to Cersei and tattles all of his plans that he tells her in confidence. She no longer hates or blames Cersei anymore because Cersei is necessary for her to stay in KL and marry Joffrey. Sansa therefore keeps changing and crafting the narrative according to whatever suits her personal self interests instead of having a honest conversation with the truth.

A repeat of this is happening at the Vale where her little cousin is being slowly poisoned by dangerously high doses of SweetSleep and the Maester has outright told Sansa that this is harmful to SweetRobin and she ignores this because Littlefinger’s plans are more important and crafts a narrative that SweetRobin will be perfectly okay.

There can be no one more honest than Ned Stark (The only two instances where he lies is to save his nephew and his daughter) and that is in stark contrast to Sansa herself.

Then there are other aspects like Ned Stark’s relationship with the workers of Winterfell. Again, it’s Ned younger daughter who mirrors him here.

Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.“ - Arya, aGoT

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. - Arya, AGoT

Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody. This Mycah was the worst; a butcher’s boy, thirteen and wild, he slept in the meat wagon and smelled of the slaughtering block. Just the sight of him was enough to make Sansa feel sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers. - Sansa, AGoT

Sansa does not like to interact with the workers of the Winterfell and looks down on Arya’s interaction with them while Arya follows in Ned’s footsteps and spends time listening and learning from them.

So, yeah, I can’t think of any one similarity between Ned and Sansa and am always baffled that this is a popular opinion in fandom. Of all the siblings Sansa is the least like Ned, highlighted by the fact that Sansa never thinks of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell the way Arya, Jon and Bran do.

#asks

[agentrouka-blog]

hello, how are you? i hope you’re having a wonderful day!

recently i was wondering if there is the possibility of maester coleman switching sweetsleep with a milder poison or medicine but keeping the act in-front of sansa and LF? i consider the idea because maester coleman seems to greatly care about sweetronin and LF isn’t someone well-trusted in the vale.?

Hello anon, and thank you!

Let me direct you to @a-maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair who has made some interesting posts on that very subject recently!

I think that's actually very plausible, and Colemon would occupy a role very similar to Cressen and Luwin, deeply caring for the child(ren) in their care.

There's also the fact that Colemon may be feeding him antidotes or other secret treatments.

Robert sniffled. "Maester Colemon put something vile in my milk last night, I could taste it. I told him I wanted sweetmilk, but he wouldn't bring me any. Not even when I commanded him. I am the lord, he should do what I say. No one does what I say." (...)

He followed her along the hallway and down the twisting stairs. "I am grateful for your intercession, my lady. You have a way with him." He hesitated. "Did you observe any shaking while you were with him?"

"His fingers trembled a little bit when I held his hand, that's all. He says you put something vile in his milk."

"Vile?" Colemon blinked at her, and the apple in his throat moved up and down. "I merely . . . is he bleeding from the nose?"

“No.”

“Good. That is good.” His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. “This descent … my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered.” (AFFC, Alayne II)

The blinking, especially, stood out to me.

"Some liars blink. Some stare. Some look away. Some lick their lips. Many cover their mouths just before they tell a lie, as if to hide their deceit. Other signs may be more subtle, but they are always there. A false smile and a true one may look alike, but they are as different as dusk from dawn. Can you tell dusk from dawn?" (AFFC, Arya II)

Colemon is being shifty. He knows that the situation is serious, that Sweetrobin does require some kind of medication. He gave him dreamwine and milk of the poppy before the Sweetsleep came into play. Narcotics and alcohol. Clearly, he's not fully hands-off when it comes to drugging the kid for his perceived own good. He's now asking about nosebleeds, which are not mentioned to be a side effect of Sweetsleep.

And if all that should fail, Maester Ballabar will be seated in the back of the hall, with purges and antidotes for twenty common poisons on his person. Tommen will be safe, I promise you." (AFFC, Cersei III)

It seems that Colemon may well be playing a dangerous game.

#vale arc #maester colemon #poison #sweetrobin #sweetsleep #antidotes

[arsenicandfinelace]

The more I think about the Vale plot the less it makes sense. There's Sweetrobin who is a sickly child and instead of any sympathy Sansa is waiting ... no, trying her hardest to kill him with sweetsleep. Then she's meant to marry Harry the heir but he already has a bastard and in love. And there's Timmett son of Timmett who might be a secret Arryn heir. And half the Vale highborns can inherit castles in the Riverlands so why go North? And not to forget, Sansa is already married to Tyrion anyway.

Listen, all this is basically just window dressing for Littlefinger's downfall.

Littlefinger isn't actually going to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir. He's obsessed with her, he's grooming her, he wants to take her virginity like he mistakenly believes he took her mother's. He's not going to let her marry someone else. He's just letting her believe it's on the table to keep her obedient and working for his interests.

Similarly, he's not going to invade the North anytime soon; if he does have any intention of obtaining it, it'll be after Stannis and the Boltons have ground each other down, but his focus is very much southern power and eventually the Iron Throne.

Timmett son of Timmet is nothing. Do not think of Timmett son of Timmett.

The only Vale element likely to have any lasting consequences is the poisoning of Robin Arryn. Either Sansa gets caught and has to flee the Vale like a bat out of hell or she blames it on Littlefinger to add another nail in his coffin (which I would be fine with; Sansa is far less deserving of karmic asskicking than Petyr).

However, I do find it incredibly funny that Littlefinger is hoping like hell that Tyrion is dead in a ditch somewhere because him showing up alive ruins a lot of plans.

#asks #anon #asoiaf #the vale #no one tell me tyrion and sansa's marriage was dissolved on grounds of non-consummation #i've read about couples who tried to use that excuse and it involved virginity testing and affidavits and interrogations #not to mention the reigning monarch applying maximum pressure #because shockingly the church is not thrilled about leaving people a loophole where they can say #'oop we never banged guessed we're not married byeeeee'

[gendrie]

sansa and lysa parallels

they share the tully look with auburn hair and blue eyes. both are described as “lovely”

start out as very hopeful and dreamy girls who are preoccupied with love and are prone to idealization

fathers 2nd favorite daughter but ned and hoster harbor guilt for their damaging actions towards them. (ned killing lady and hoster tricking lysa into an abortion)

become dangerously infatuated with men/boys who don’t care for them at all (joffrey and petyr) 

married at a young age to older men against their will for political gain. lysa was the price to pay for jon arryns support and sansa was used by the lannisters in an attempt to gain the north. after their husbands death/arrest in kings landing they retreat to the vale for safety 

lysa was lady of the eyrie and sansa acts as de facto after her death. both flirtishly entertain suitors there in the struggle for power over the region

strained relationship with sisters who they blame entirely for the conflicts with the lannisters (arya attacking joffrey and catelyn seizing tyrion) while refusing to accept any responsibility for their own actions

they also reconstructed reality re: their sisters vs. their love interests. lysa has a warped view of catelyn as this evil seductress who tortured petyr and sansa views arya as a “wicked” villain who attacked her poor sweet joffrey, unprovoked, and intentionally tried to ruin her fairy tale 

and neither shows any loyalty to their sister. lysa refused to aid catelyn and sansa refused to support arya at any point. 

were manipulated, at least in part by littlefinger, into writing letters (for love) to their siblings that were not well received.

both are very feminine, love to play dress up and be the center of attention in a court environment ect

lysa is sweetrobin’s mother and sansa acts as his foster mother after her death

their relationships with petyr are probably the most important parallel. he treats them both as pawns and stand ins for catelyn. they are manipulated into lying to protect him from his numerous crimes. he uses them both as vehicles for poison. lysa kills jon arryn at his behest. sansa wears the poison that killed joffrey. she witnessed him kill dontos and lysa. as did marillon who they framed for the latter’s murder. 

i don’t think sansa is lysa 2.0 by any means. not all of these parallels are played straight. for example sansa does act as a reluctant mother figure to sweetrobin but she is also an active player in the plot to kill him. despite that sansa isn’t actually as cruel or fragile as lysa nor do i think they will share the same fate but theres clearly a great deal of similarities in their characters and parallels between their stories. 

#this isnt a well composed post and like #i took some cheap shots lol but #i honestly think lysa is the character sansa has the most in common with #to start theres a lot of traits/plot points they share #but then sansa takes over lysas entire life #as petyrs pawn sweetrobins mother and lady of the eyrie #she assumes every role that lysa played #thats some pretty significant shit imo #with genuine narrative weight #this isnt a reach b/w 2 random characters #ultimately i think lysa can be viewed as an unevolved sansa #but ik everybody hates it so whatever #im not asking anyone to cosign #by all means continue to act like theres a meaningful connection b/w sansa and lyanna #asoiaf nonsense

[rainhadaenerys]

Ok, I'm starting to get a little fed up with y'all and your Catelyn and Sansa hate. I ignore it for the most part because I simply do not have the energy to argue about anyone that isn't Dany, but I absolutely DO NOT want people reblogging my metas saying stuff like "Sansa is knowingly poisoning Sweetrobin" or making digs about Catelyn and saying stuff like "she is not forgiving". Because while I do hate Sansa stans, what I prize the most in my metas is intellectual honesty and truth. And things like "Sansa is knowingly poisoning Sweetrobin" are lies, and I don't want that kind of discourse associated with me and my metas. I definitely do no want people to think that I agree in any way with this viewpoint.

If you actually read the book, you'd know that when Colemon talks to Sansa about the sweetsleep, he is quite vague, and this happens BEFORE Littlefinger tells her of how his plans involve Robert's death (he tells her his plans at the end of Alayne II AFFC, the sweetsleep incident happens before the end of the chapter). Even if Sansa could have connected the dots later, at the moment of her conversation with Colemon, she couldn't possibly know, because Littlefinger hasn't told her his plans yet. Also, people conveniently omit the fact that they were trying to descend a mountain, and Robert couldn't shake or he'd fall to his death. Sansa is absolutely right that what matters the most right at the moment is stopping his shakings, and that at that moment sweetsleep is necessary. Argue all you want about how Sansa is refusing to see the truth LATER (and I will even agree with you on this, that there's some denial involved, especially because Sansa doesn't see a way to survive without Littlefinger right now), but at the moment of her conversation with Colemon, she couldn't possibly know.

As for Catelyn, asking for peace is absolutely forgiving. Yes, she wishes she could strangle Cersei, but she is willing to let that go if she can simply have her daughters back. A vengeful person would want to get her daughters back and still fight for revenge, but Catelyn is content in just accepting a peace. That is not vengeful. And trying to use Lady Stoneheart is not fair either, because with Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn not only is dead and changed, but her entire family is dead, she has nothing left but revenge. But it does speak of her forgiveness that when there was a chance for conciliation, she was in favor of it.

Anyway, I am just venting here, because I am going to be honest here, I am becoming quite tired of some of you guys' takes on Catelyn and Sansa. I don't think they're fair, and I definitely don't want to see people reblogging my metas to say stuff like this.

#fandom wank #please do not reblog this post or try to argue or i will block you #also in case people don't know... i AM a catelyn stan #just to make that clear