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squish--squash · 9 months

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I'm rewatching Good Omens, and noticed something in the first episode that has left me spiraling into a theory.

It's in the scene when Hastur and Ligur are handing Adam over to Crowley. Hastur asks Crowley to sign something beforehand, and:

I thought it was a scribble the first time I watched it bc I was trying to figure out what was going on. But it's not a scribble.

It's not a 'C' either, for 'Crowley' It's not a 'A' or 'J' either, for the rest of his name.

It's an 'L'. It gets hard to see as he's finishing it, but it's the letter 'L'

This is how you write a capital 'L' in cursive:

you swoop up and to the right, drop down, swoop left, and finish on the right.

and Crowley does this with his signature:

here's him beginning the letter, swooping up and to the right

Then he moves down,

loops to the left,

And finishes it as he moves back towards the right (and at this point, the complete letter is hard to make out. It's why I thought it was a scribble the first time I watched this episode)

Crowley's signature on the document Hastur makes him sign before delivering the Antichrist to start Armageddon, something that is arguably one of the most important things hell wants to document, is an 'L'.

WHY?

Why not a 'C', for Crowley, the name he currently goes by? Hastur and Ligur confirm the name itself earlier in the same scene ("What's he calling himself up here these days?"/"Crowley.")

Well, if going by what he claims in a later s1 episode that "Crowley" is his last name (Anthony J. Crowley), it would make sense for one of his initials to be put there.

Except it doesn't, because "Crowley" is not his real name. it's not the name he began with, the one he had as an angel.

So then, what would this name be? What would be a name for an angel, who is now a demon? A demon who was there to tempt eve, as a snake, into eating the forbidden fruit. Someone that brought the stars, and light, to the universe. A name that begins with the letter 'L'.

There's one I can think of that matches, and that name is Lucifer.

"But Squish!" I know some of y'all will comment, "What about that line Crowley said in episode 5? He mentions Lucifer, so it can't be him!"

In episode 5, Crowley says the following: "I never asked to be a demon. I was just minding my own business one day and then...oh, lookie here, it's Lucifer and the guys! Oh, hey, the food hadn't been that good lately. I didn't have anything on for the rest of that afternoon. Next thing, I'm doing a million-light-year dive into a pool of boiling sulphur."

Crowley also says in the second episode: "I didn't mean to fall. I just hung out with the wrong people."

A lot of people believe that it's implied that when Crowley said this, it meant he met Lucifer and hung out with him. But when he says it, it sounds like he's mockingly quoting someone else, talking to him.

The "Lucifer and the guys!" might've been directed to Crowley, using his name. This would match that line from a previous episode, "hung out with the wrong people."

"But Squish!" I know some of y'all will comment after reading that, "What about Satan? Lucifer is Satan, and Crowley isn't Satan!"

And neither is Beelzebub. Fun fact, by the way: One of the many names for The Devil, Satan himself, is Beelzebub. But Beelzebub is a whole different character. So why can't Lucifer be a whole different character too? After all, many people still argue to this day that Lucifer and Satan aren't one and the same...

Also, here's something interesting:

Crowley is the only character in the tv series that has mentioned Lucifer, and it was in that line I mentioned earlier. Lucifer is also mentioned once, in the book, but by Shadwell, mishearing Newt's last name as "Lucifer" instead of "Pulsifer". And Satan? In both the book and the tv show, he is never called another name other than "Satan", usually followed by his fancy and long title. His description in the book's "DRAMATIS PERSONAE" is literally "fallen angel; the adversary". No Lucifer.

And how about this:

Crowley was the one who started the universe, we see that at the beginning of season 2. He was the first one, to our knowledge, to say "let there be light." "Lucifer" means "light-bringer" Crowley was the snake that tempted eve into eating the apple in the garden of eve. We see this in the beginning of episode one. Many claim Lucifer was the one who did that. Crowley fell because he asked questions about how the universe should be run, after seeing its creation and being so proud of it. Many claim Lucifer's big sin that sent him falling was his pride stemming from his beauty causing him to revolt; eerily similar to Crowley asking questions after watching the beautiful universe he helped plan be born and growing protective after learning it was going to get shut down so early in its lifetime, isn't it? Crowley was a powerful angel. This is heavily implied in season 2, with the tiny joint-miracle he and Aziraphale made being as powerful as an archangel's. He has the ability to mask his presence powerful enough to fool Uriel, Michael, and Gabriel (the only other character we've seen have that kind of masking power was the Metatron, who Crowley was also the first to recognize). When going through records with Muriel, they claim only very high-ranking angels have clearance to look through the records of Gabriel, an archangel so powerful he single-handedly had the power to stop "Armageddon 2" from being put into plan; Crowley is able to access them. And Lucifer? Often described as having been a very powerful angel.

Lucifer is such an important name, such an important character, in the theologies surrounding Good Omens. So, where is he? Why has he only been mentioned seriously once, by Crowley?

The answer could be this, simple and short: Because he is Crowley.

EDIT:

I dug up the book. It's been a while since I read it (I honestly don't remember much from the book) and here's what it has to say about Crowley's signature...

"Your real name."

.........

HELLO?

EDIT 2:

I found this post from Neil Gaiman's blog. The wording is confusing me, and I can't tell if this debunks or supports the theory..

What Neil Gaiman says is "That was the angel Lucifer. He doesn't exist any more. Now there's just Satan, the adversary." which might throw this entire thing out of the window, but the thing is: he never said Satan used to be Lucifer. He just said Lucifer doesn't exist anymore, but Satan does.

Furthermore, the person who first asked a question asks more questions, two of them: 1. Is Satan what's left of Lucifer after he fell and stopped existing, and 2. If so, does that mean there was an angel that existed that then fell and turned into crowley?

Neil Gaiman's answer is "As far as Crowley is concerned, the Angel that he was no longer exists. (And his name as an Angel wasn’t Crawley or Crowley.)"

He doesn't confirm or deny anything about Satan in that. All he said was "the Angel that he was no longer exists" and that Crowley's angel name wasn't his demon name.

Huh. Funny. He's saying angel!crowley no longer exists, when he just revealed that Lucifer "doesn't exist any more." Either there's a connection here, or I'm going insane.

#good omens #good omens 2 #spoilers #good omens 2 spoilers #good omens spoilers #crowley was lucifer theory

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nephilimupdates · 9 months

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Is Crowley Leviathan?

Floating theory is he is Lucifer. It’s atleast established that he is a very powerful demon, and was a very powerful angel!

Could he be leviathan?

“ The first hierarchy includes angels that were Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones:[19]

Beelzebub was a prince of the Seraphim, just below Lucifer. Beelzebub, along with Lucifer and Leviathan, were the first three angels to fall. He tempts men with pride and is opposed by St. Francis.

Leviathan was also a prince of the Seraphim who tempts people to give into heresy, and is opposed by St. Peter.”

#good omens spoilers #good omens #Crowley #crowley was lucifer theory #good omens 2 spoilers

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metamatronic · 9 months

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“I didn’t mean to fall. I just hung around the wrong people.”

stills under the cut:

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nocterish · 8 months

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Season 2 has me on a chokehold so I have to draw to cope from the emotional damage it gave me with drawing Crowley with The Fallen Angel painting

[Prints]

#yes i know that painting is lucifer and i've seen the theories of crowley being lucifer but no i didn't make this with that theory in mind #it just fits for the whole “i didn't mean to fall” line from s1 #good omens #crowley #good omens fanart #anthony j crowley #y-yes i'm alive guys i've been slowly working on this ok and been busy playing and coping with my friend about them too

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fyoht · 9 months

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season 2 + nods to 'crowley was raphael' truthers

#personally i quite enjoy being delulu #golden tooth truther here I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT MEANS BUT I KNOW IT MEANS THINGS.#aLSO. THE PAUSE. WHEN GABRIEL TRIES TO REMEMBER THE NAME. MUSIC SWELLING.#a fakeout if i ever saw one #(you can't) change my mind #and listen i love the 'crowley was a nobody' theory just as much but they threw that one out the window with the file reveal #so.#crowley is lucifer theory is uh fun but i can't get behind it whoops #good omens #crowley #crowley was raphael #good omens 2 spoilers #ok that's too many tags already. if you're still reading PLEASE RECOMMEND ME FICS.#and also if you want a gifset send an ask cause i'm obsessed #also! feel like most of these are from heaven-times. and yeah. more 'crowley in heaven' content @neil gaiman please #crying over the gif quality btw

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indigovigilance · 7 months

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The Erasure of Human!Metatron

The elephant in the room is that Neil has [purportedly] denied the existence of a human Metatron. But I, for one, think an elephant really ties the room together. So let's get started.

First, I will address Neil Gaiman’s apparent denial of the Human!Metatron storyline (below the cut):

Caption: The Metatron in Good Omens wasn't ever human.

Which would seem to put the debate to bed.

Except.

Caption: That’s not really his father. It is. It is now, and it always was.

By Adam renouncing Satan as his father, we have in-story canon evidence that the past can be retroactively changed. So a storyline past can be divergent from an in-world past which has been modified. But only to a degree, because Aziraphale and Crowley clearly remember that Adam ~was~ Satan’s son, and Adam still retains some residual powers. Like pencil marks on paper, the past can be erased, but the shadow of its former self will always be there. But if that's not enough for you, there's also...

Lucifer!Satan

Neil Gaiman has also been pretty consistent with this characterization about the non-existence of the past in other characters, for example Lucifer!Satan:

Basically (not to be rude), if you think that these statements can be taken to mean that we will definitely not get a story about Enoch aka Human!Metatron in S3, you have fundamentally misunderstood how time, history, and identity work in Neil Gaiman’s Good Omens universe.

So what Neil said about Metatron never being human… can we just collectively set that aside for a moment?

Caption: Work with me, I’m extrapolating here. Yes? Good. Read the rest of the meta.

Evidence of Human!Metatron

Now that we have established that a former, no-longer-existing version of Metatron could have been human, let’s examine the in-world evidence. The best direct evidence is:

Caption: I’ve ingested things in my time, you know.

This is weirdly important in the Book of Enoch. Food is mentioned in the Book of Enoch at least fourteen times, and consistently it is associated with being human, and having earthly desires, and subsequently with sin, whereas the angels are described as not needing to eat food but instead being nourished by faith alone. Enoch!Metatron’s own relationship with food is also explicitly elucidated:

Enoch answered to his son Mathosalam (and) said: Hear, child, from the time when the Lord anointed me with the ointment of his glory, (there has been no) food in me, and my soul remembers not earthly enjoyment, neither do I want anything earthly.

I propose that "in my time" is a direct reference to Metatron's prior existence as a human, and the fact that this time is over serves to underscore his current inhumanity, making him all the more sinister.

Other Evidence Pointing to Book of Enoch

This next bit is somewhat dubious evidence, but the entire reason I wound up investigating this is that I was actually investigating Baraqiel:

…and for the God-fearing life of me, I cannot find any reference to Baraqiel except in the Book of Enoch. So this is a pretty big ✨Clue✨ to just leave hanging out there if it’s not supposed to lead us to this text.

The Scottish Mason

Okay guys, this the part where it all comes unhinged, but I promise the payoff is worth it.

The Book of Enoch was recovered from Ethiopia in 1773 by a Scottish explorer named James Bruce, who also happened to be a Mason. In 1774, upon his return, he was made a Fellow of The Royal Society of Edinburgh. And if this quote doesn’t get you, I don’t know what will:

Amazingly, Bruce brings back not just one copy, nor two, but three! Three copies of this text, which was previously thought to have been lost to the West forever. This inevitably led to all kinds of accusations as to where he had come by them, and more importantly how? Add to this that Bruce was a Mason in one of the most influential lodges, a Bruce descendant, and an imposing physical figure and 6 feet 4 inches tall, with dark red hair and an irascible temper, it is no wonder that so much excitement and mystery surrounded the man. [source]

So, you know, this guy:

In summary:

There are reasons that we should be looking to the Book of Enoch, and the story surrounding its reintroduction to the Western world, as source evidence for Good Omens S3.

If you enjoyed this, you may also like my meta on Baraqiel and Azazel, which draws upon the Book of Enoch.

My original (in retrospect, kind of terrible) Metatron meta is here.

#good omens meta #good omens #good omens 2 #the metatron #metatron #book of enoch #crowley #satan #lucifer #baraqiel #book of life #ivoc #erasure theory

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thatgaiagirl · 9 months

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I still like the interpretation that God favours Aziraphale and Crowley, and is sort-of preventing Aziraphale from Fallling properly for his little indulgences, because they both have Free Will.

God created Humans with Free Will - not Angels, and therefore, not Demons either.

Well. Except Aziraphale and Crowley - it can be seen as them ‘going native’ from exposure to Humans, being able to make their own choices now, but I think it goes deeper.

Crowley has clearly been comfortable with exerting his Free Will and defying Hell since the very Beginning - emphasised most, I think, in the Job minisode, where he’s already settled into the ‘I’m on my own side’ routine and it feels like he’s been disobeying Hell for a good while. And if i may tie this into the Crowley is Lucifer theory for a second, he’d be the first Angel to ever develop Free Will, which is what led to him falling in the first place. He has something no Angel or Demon has - imagination. He’s been unique in his ability to ask questions from the very start.

But Aziraphale also had it from the start. He gave away his sword. He acted on his own internal sense of Right, of Good, that was separate from Heaven’s wishes at the Beginning. People have already made observations about the ‘I gave it away’ moment from S1E1 as the moment Crowley fell in love, but it goes deeper than that. This is where Crowley realises that he’s NOT the only Angel to ever develop Free Will. This Angel, who’d previously warned him off asking questions like any other would’ve, had an Inkling of human choice in him (a choice that led to the birth of violence and the Sword becoming the symbol of war, unintentionally).

THAT is why Crowley became interested in Aziraphale. That’s why he sought him out at Noah’s arc, to talk to the only other Celestial Being capable of choosing like he could. It’s why he stuck to Aziraphale during the Job fiasco. He was nurturing that part of him, encouraging his Free Will to blossom. Introducing him to human food. Letting him see what he could do with it. It’s also why he doesn’t want Aziraphale to Fall - obviously, Crowley is heavily protective of his Angel, but at that early stage he also doesn’t want the only Angel with Free Will left in Heaven to suffer the same fate he did.

The part of Aziraphale Crowley fell in love with was his ability to choose. His free will. His silly little requests like asking him to miracle away a paint stain when he could do it himself, enjoying food so immensely, assisting Aziraphale in a dangerous magic trick because he CHOSE to do it, because he said ‘Trust Me’, all his little quirks and their arguments and the exceedingly HUMAN behaviours he’s picked up over the years. Crowley loves Aziraphale as Aziraphale, not the Angel.

And despite himself, its also what Aziraphale loves about Crowley. He loves Crowley for Crowley’s Goodness - what he doesn’t understand is that Crowley’s Goodness isn’t Heaven’s Goodness. Heaven’s Goodness is the Goodness that drowned the world. Heaven’s Goodness is the Goodness that wanted Job’s children dead. Heaven’s Goodness with leave the world just as destroyed as Hell’s Evil.

But he doesn’t realise that. Not yet, anyway. And, as an Angel with Free Will, why wouldn’t you want him for the Second Coming?

#crowley #good omens #good omens spoilers #good omens 2 #good omens 2 spoilers #aziraphale #ineffable husbands #hnnng brain go whirrrr #this also ties really well into the Crowley is Lucifer theory #so do with that what you will

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cassandralie · 9 months

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Muriel, the Dimmest Little Morningstar

Maybe the question isn't "was Crowley Lucifer?" but who else was also Lucifer? After all, there was more than one Morningstar

or, as Crowley put it more casually,

he doesn't remember them, of course, probably due to Book of Life fuckery, just like he doesn't remember Fufur and Saraquel, who were also probably in the Morningstar Legion (that or the rebels called themselves Morningstars).

Which is why he also doesn't remember Muriel and Muriel also doesn't remember him. Both of them had their memories altered by the Book of Life*

*Sub Theory: the Book of Life erases who you were, makes it so you never existed... but you don't disappear or die. You become someone new. Hopefully this theory doesn't implode later--yeah, that's right, I made that sub joke instead of the other kind involving um...sandwiches.

But, just like Pepperidge Farms, the Metatron remembers.

he didn't say the "dumb" one, or the "stupid" one. Maybe to be polite. But "dim" isn't very polite either. It's just slightly less on the nose than the "not very bright one", aka the Dimmest Morningstar

But what happened to Muriel and their original memories? The same thing that was going to happen to Gabriel, obviously!

Muriel is basically a junior reporting angel. Sorry, scrivener. A no one and they know it.

Ranked so low they didn't know there was a rank under (which there probably wasn't until the Metatron wanted to punish Gabriel)

whatever Muriel did Before the Fall, whatever their name used to be, the Metatron didn't get rid of them because:

that's right, Neil Gaiman the Metatron will need Muriel for his evil plans, probably involving thee Second Coming and another apocalypse.

maybe to keep them out of the way, or maybe because they have power he's waiting for the right moment to unlock.

But he does make sure it's still locked.

Other people have explained that the book is about pieceing together fragments of the past* Maybe Muriel will remember who they are? Remember who Crowley is? Remember what really happened to cause the War in Heaven, the Fall, all that?

Maybe they will remember just in time to stop the Second Coming and the Second Armageddon--with help from our divorced dads, of course.

(*also a missing uncle - Crowley? A fellow Morningstar.

*also an estranged father with a belief in a higher power - Aziraphale? the Metatron?

*and also an exploded Grandmother - God? Muriel's previous identity?)

For further evidence, please note the star and crown on their helmet and recall "everything is meant" TM

This looks like a former Prince of Heaven, Morningstar Legion to me

And that is my theory :)

(if anyone said this first, sorry! All credit to you!)

Now, I'm no published author and barely anyone reads my fics (but the ones who do are Real Ones-- I love ya'll), so I have zero street cred here, and am probably so off the mark my dart hit the wall instead of the dart board, but I wanted to share my thoughts anyway and see what everyone thinks. Please let me know!

(Bonus Crack Theory: Muriel's original name was Lucy/Luci/Luciel. Combine with Fufur, that would make a Lucifer with bad demon spelling Lucyfur.)

#gos2 spoilers #gos2spoilers #gos3 speculation #good omens meta #muriel theory #the Metatron #Crowley #Aziraphale #not coffee theory or crowley is lucifer theory but a third even weirder theory #cassandratruths

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nymph1e · 9 months

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Listen. I know it's not canon. I know the chances of it actually being canon are like 100 to 1. But the Crowley is Lucifer theory has me by the fucking throat let me tell you.

evidence for if you haven't heard this (admittedly batshit) theory

Satan and Lucifer aren't necessarily the same person and we know Neil & Terry played a bit fast an loose with the conventional understanding of the bible (i.e. the angel hierarchy)

Crowley 'bringing light', lucifer which means 'light bringer', and 'morning star'

Crowley being powerful enough to open the archangels records

Crowley being the snake which is conventionally seen as lucifer/satan (again, fast and loose)

Crowley personally knowing the Metatron and being told he asked too many questions

"a miracle performed by only the greatest of archangels" 👀👀👀

there's actually a lot of implications that Crowley was an archangel (see above), and in Gabriel's trial, it was stated that only one archangel had ever fallen to become a demon

With that out of the way, it also gives you a brand new perspective on him as a character that - well - kind of explains a lot about his character

I mean, look at the scene where Aziraphale tells Crowley that Metatron has offered to make Crowley an angel again with this theory in mind. It adds just a whole layer of meaning. Crowley's disdainful disbelief isn't just hurt by Aziraphale not understanding him, but by him knowing that Metatron is full of shit because there is no way Crowley will ever be taken back. Some Joe-blow demon? Maybe. The former Archangel Lucifer? Fuck no.

This also adds more dynamic to Crowley's relationship with Aziraphale. Looking from this perspective, Crowley has been keeping things from Aziraphale for millennia, and likely intended to never tell him. This is completely in line with the way Crowley is consistently shown to omit things he should tell Aziraphale.

It ALSO puts them on more even grounds come season three. With just-some-guy!Crowley, we have a Crowley who has always put everything out there for Aziraphale, who has consistently chosen Aziraphale above everything else, while nothing is returned from an aloof Aziraphale. (To me) That's not a compelling dynamic. Having Lucifer!Crowley would mean that Crowley is also deeply in the wrong in their relationship, and would put them on way more even terms when they try to work their shit out.

I mean what's better storytelling-wise: a completely in the wrong Aziraphale coming back to Crowley with his tail between his legs, or Crowley and Aziraphale having a screaming match about how much they've both fucked up, culminating in a kiss?

What this doesn't explain:

who tf is satan

prolly some other glaring holes.

Do I think this theory is true? No. Do I fucking wish it were? Yes.

#good omens #crowley is lucifer theory #good omens spoilers #i know im nuts ok but thanks for reading #i din't come up with this i saw someone talk about it and it was like a light went off in my brain

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outoftimewriting · 8 months

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we've gone through raphael, lucifer, and now baraquiel for names to pre-fall/angel crowley, BUT WHAT IF, what if the J in his "middle name" that "doesn't stand for anything" actually stands for his angel name as an indication of Something™

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correlance · 27 days

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Theory: Alastor plans to defeat Lucifer by stealing his angelic grace

In the TV show Supernatural, which also features Heaven, Hell, angels, and demons, angels have something called "angelic grace", or just "grace", for short (right image). In Supernatural, all angels and Nephilim, or angel-human hybrids, are born with "angelic grace", a divine essence which gives them a great array of powers and abilities, including shapeshifting, immense strength, pyrokinesis, etc.

However, if an angel is captured or killed, their "grace" can also be forcibly taken or harvested, and is one of the rarest and most valuable substances due to this. Angelic and holy weapons may also be infused with "grace". It is unknown whether or not humans or sinners (deceased humans in Hell) can consume "angelic grace", with there being two dominant theories as to to the potential outcome(s):

A human is too weak and mortal to handle "grace", and the human dies as a result; or, assuming that a sinner or demon attempts to imbibe "grace", they are also incompatible. Assuming that angelic weapons in Hazbin Hotel are infused with "angelic grace" - for example, Adam's guitar - this is supported by the fact that sinners can be grievously harmed and killed by angelic weapons.

Humans, sinners, and demons can imbibe "grace", and grow much stronger as a result. In Supernatural, a human drinking demon blood also grants them powers, abilities, and strength. One theory is that a human that ingests enough "angelic grace" becomes an angel (Adam). Another theory is that while stolen "angelic grace" may cause death for the imbiber, "grace" freely given does not. Hence, Alastor's deal with Charlie of her free will.

In Supernatural, that show's version of Lucifer ends up having his "angelic grace" taken in order to trap and imprison him in the "Cage" in Hell. This allows Crowley, a dead human-turned-demon who died in the 1700s, to take the throne as the new "King of Hell" in his stead.

In Hazbin Hotel, we also know that Alastor, another dead human-turned-demon who died in 1933 (?), also wants to somehow imprison or incapacitate Lucifer, presumably to also take the throne as the new "King of Hell". This also involves getting Charlie out of the way as well.

Both Crowley from Supernatural and Alastor from Hazbin Hotel are named for Aleister Crowley, a British occultist who died in 1947.

Assuming that Lucifer in Hazbin Hotel also has "angelic grace", and that his inherent "grace" is the source of his power and strength ("pure angelic power"), all Alastor would need to do to achieve his goal would be to figure out how to take, or steal, Lucifer's "grace", which would render Lucifer powerless, while Alastor gains power through Charlie.

However, there is another aspect: In Supernatural, the Nephilim, or angel-human hybrids, also have "angelic grace". Charlie, being half-angel and half-human, is also a Nephilim, which means that she, too, would have "angelic grace" (ex. series creator Vivienne Medrano saying that Charlie also has wings, as well as other angelic abilities).

In theory, the favor that Alastor asks of Charlie could be to lend him some of her "angelic grace", thereby transferring her "angelic power" to Alastor. This would make Alastor much stronger than he is.

If we go by the logic of Supernatural, Charlie's entire existence could also endanger and upset the balance between Heaven and Hell, as in Biblical lore, the Nephilim were a chaotic force of destruction.

"A Nephilim is a hybrid creature conceived by an angel and a human. The offspring contains a mixture of human soul and angelic grace as a source of power, inherited from both parents. Whenever a Nephilim grew into their power, entire worlds died, the Nephilim is destinated to became more powerful than the angel that [begat] them. As a result, conceiving a Nephilim is strictly forbidden by laws of Heaven, and the punishment is death for the celestial parent, along with the child...as a result, they are considered as unholy beings and abominations. [...] Theoretically, removing a Nephilim's grace will turn them into a normal human, as removing the grace of an angel would turn them, effectively, human. It is unknown if the procedure is effective. Though Jack Kline had his grace extracted and absorbed by Lucifer, despite being powerless afterwards, [the angel] Castiel revealed that his grace would recharge in time, throwing whether or not they become human into question. It's later revealed that the Nephilim's grace is what holds their human and angel halves in balance; and, when they lose their grace, their two halves come in conflict with each other, causing the Nephilim's body to shut down progressively. The only way to revert that is for the Nephilim to recharge their grace."

Additionally, the heart of a Nephilim can also be used in rituals against Heaven itself. Charlie is shown holding her heart in Hazbin Hotel:

#hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel theory #hazbin theory #hazbin hotel fan theory #hazbin hotel lucifer #lucifer morningstar #hazbin lucifer #hazbin alastor #alastor #hazbin hotel alastor #charlie morningstar #nephilim #supernatural #crowley #crowley supernatural

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the-meta-tron · 9 months

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Crowley ISN'T Lucifer, But...

So today, Neil Gaiman basically killed The Crowley-was-Lucifer theory, which is fine. I thought the theory was fun, but to be honest, it never completely satisfied me.

The most compelling evidence (for me) regarding the theory were two things 1) we see Crowley before the fall, creating the stars and Lucifer was the Lightbringer, and 2) a lot of what Satan/Lucifer is attributed are things we see Crowley doing in the show's flashbacks.

I don't think it was wrong to recognize that the mythology of Lucifer/Satan has connections to what we see in Crowley's character. I just think it's missing some important context.

For example, Crowley is The Snake from the Garden of Eden. We know that for a fact. The Snake tempts Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and humanity falls (aka Original Sin). Satan is never mentioned in Genesis. But over time, the snake is attributed to being Satan.

That doesn't mean Crowley is Lucifer/Satan. It just means humans in the GOmens verse tend to attribute the demonic things Crowley does to Satan over time because they simplify their own history. The same can be true for enacting wrath on Job or showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world (tempter of the Gospels). Those things happen, a demon does them, and later down the line, they are conflated as being done by Satan.

Originally, the word satan just meant "adversary" or "opposer." It was a word that described any adversary to God, sometimes even humans. Over time the concept of satan evolved to Ha-Satan, aka The Adversary, the personification of all evil whom Lucifer and The Devil are often attributed to. So there's actual real-world evidence of these translations of any adversary becoming The Adversary, and anything anyone does that opposes God's plan eventually becomes attributed to Satan over time.

And since Crowley is the one on Earth doing things for most of human history, I'm sure most of the things he does get attributed to Satan in the telephone of human mistranslations and simplifications.

Basically, Crowley is the overworked employee who does all the work, and his boss gets all the credit.

But Lucifer, the angel Satan was before he fell, was Not Crowley, and I think that's important. A lot of people were pointing out that Lucifer questioned God, and Crowley asked questions so badda-bing badda-boom Crowley=Lucifer, but I think that's ignoring or simplifying a lot about Lucifer.

Lucifer didn't just question God or rebel against God. Lucifer wanted to be Above God. (Originally, the concept of Lucifer was a king of Babylon, and the concept came strongly from Sumerian mythology, but he was eventually conflated as the Devil/Satan in theology over time). The Book of Isaiah basically describes the main motivations of Lucifer:

Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High"

The Cave of Treasures was responsible for the first and most popular proto-orthodox Christian explanation for why the angels fell. Basically, the concept of fallen angels in the Bible is dubious at best. In a lot of rabbinic Jewish literature, Satan and his satans are still angels and servants of God; they just accuse humanity of wrongdoing and punish them for sins. Christianity really developed the idea that Satan was the enemy of God, and the two of them were the figureheads of Good vs. Evil. And with Satan being conflated as Lucifer and Lucifer being conflated as a fallen angel in the Book of the Watchers and that concept of fallen angels (which in the Book of Watchers notably happened after the fall of man, the angels fell because they had sex with humans) Christianity suddenly needed to explain why all these angels became fallen in the first place BEFORE the temptation of Eve, so the Fall of Man and Original Sin was retroactively preceded by the Fall of Angels, and then they had to come up with Why They Fell.

The two biggest Sins that became popular explanations for why the Angels fell were Pride and Envy. Pride, as taken from Isaiah and attributed to Lucifer The Angel instead of Lucifer The Babylonian King, where Lucifer wanted to be above God and have divinity for himself. Envy came from the Cave of Treasures, where Satan was jealous of mankind and refused to prostrate himself before Adam. Basically, God told all the Angels that Humans were going to be the next big important thing and Most Loved by God. Lucifer got jealous because He was Most Loved by God, so he decided to overthrow God out of envy, and the reason why he tortured humans is that he still is envious of them.

So I think fundamentally, if we look at these proto-orthodox explanations of The Fall, Crowley obviously isn't Lucifer. Crowley never wanted to be God. Crowley never hated or envied humanity. He protects them. He pranks them and tempts them, sure, but without malice.

He just had questions. He was Just Some Guy Angel who wanted to make the stars and didn't understand why it had to all go kablooey in six thousand years. Heaven's institution refused to give him answers (or even let him ask his questions, based on his awe at Job conversing with God), so he went and talked to the other angels who were also disgruntled with management in Heaven but for maybe more selfish reasons (Hey Look, It's Lucifer and The Guys). And because he was unsatisfied with Heaven's system, he ended up hanging out with the wrong people, getting involved in the war, and sauntering vaguely downward. And fundamentally, Heaven is going to punish anyone who challenges the status quo. It doesn't matter why or if they had good intentions.

I kind of don't want to know what angel Crowley was before he fell. Maybe he was high-ranking, and maybe he lost his memories, but ultimately the angel he was doesn't matter anymore. The trauma of the war and the fall stripped the angel Crowley used to be and transformed him into the demon we know now. The demon he is now is the only character we need to know. It is fun to theorize, and the angel he used to be might inform the demon we see now (although I think we have most of the information we need to understand that). But the war, the fall, and his time on earth, I think, inform his character far, far more.

#good omens #good omens season 2 #good omens meta #good omens theory #crowley #good omens spoilers #gos2 spoilers #crowley is lucifer #crowley is not lucifer #the job episode

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theravenmuse · 9 months

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Theorizing time! Crowley was Lucifer!

I’m going to preface this by saying I’m 50/50 on this theory, but it’s fun so we’re gonna talk about it.

Now Lucifer and Satan are not necessarily the same person in the Bible. We also know for a fact that Satan and Lucifer aren’t the same entity in Good Omens. (Neil has said this but I’m too lazy to track down the ask.) BUT in Paradise Lost, which I see as a big influence on Good Omens, Satan is the fallen angel Lucifer. Now Crowley is not Satan. We know this for certain as we get interactions between them via the Bentley in S1E1 and at the airbase in S1E6. But in this theory, the lines have been muddled and Crowely is the fallen Lucifer while Satan is someone else. No idea who. That’s not important.

Evidence Part 1: Biblical stories attributed to Lucifer/Satan that Crowley is now known to be responsible for.

Now all of these are technically attributed to Satan, not to Lucifer. See opening note about muddled lines.

The original sin

Job’s trials

The temptation of Christ

Evidence Part 2: Crowley’s former status in Heaven

Crowley can access a file that is only available to “Throne, Dominion, or above.” Now, the angelic hierarchy in GO is twisted up so much I hardly know what to make of that, but it definitely means high up.

Then, shortly after this revelation, we get the Metatron saying this: “For one prince of Heaven to be cast out into the outer darkness makes a good story. For it to happen twice, makes it look like there is an institutional problem.”

Are the two connected? Not necessarily, but the proximity of them indicates to me that they might be.

Evidence Part 3: Crowley’s power

When Shax mentions (in episode 2) the accidentally super powerful miracle that Crowley and Aziraphale co-created, she calls it one that “only the mightiest of Archangel’s could have performed.” Crowley responds to her query with, “how do you know I didn’t do it?” Now, is he talking out of his ass? Who knows. He does tend to do that a lot.

What we do know is that Crowley can stop time and create pocket dimensions. Something we don’t know of anyone else being capable of. He does this most notably by creating a pocket dimension in the climax of S1 to give him and Aziraphale time to talk to Adam, but he also freezes the executioner in 1793 and Mr. Dalrymple in 1827. The latter is especially notable because Aziraphale requests that he do it instead of simply doing it himself. Now this could just be Aziraphale goading Crowley into doing things for him again, but I’m inclined to believe this is something Crowley can do that Aziraphale can’t. Aziraphale is pretty high up by angel standards.

And then obviously there’s the star making in the opening of season 2. Or, more accurately, the star factory making, which is even better in my opinion.

Evidence Part 4: “Let there be light”

Ah, that gorgeous opening scene where Crolwey creates M16, the Eagle Nebula, which contains the gorgeous Pillars of Creation. He uses that classic line, “let there be light,” to set it all off. Lucifer is known as “the light bringer.”

Then we get a call back to that opening scene in episode 5 with Gabriel and the lamp. Being mentioned a second time means to me that there’s something intentional there.

Evidence Part 5: Gabriel’s triggered memory may be a bit more specific than Crowley would like to admit.

“I remember when the morning stars sang together, and all the angels of God shouted for joy.”

Lucifer is also known as “the morning star”

Crowley deflects and says it’s what God told Job. He’s absolutely right, but I don’t think Gabriel picking it out was random. I think it’s because he’s looking right at the morning star (or perhaps one of several, since God says morning stars, plural?)

Now this is probably the weakest bit of evidence out of the bunch, BUT, it’s what tipped me off to this theory in the first place.

Now the cons.

The most obvious is that Satan is typically fallen Lucifer and Crowley is most certainly not Satan.

Crowley also mentions Lucifer by name once in season 1, in the drunk scene after the bookshop fire. Granted, he’s starting on his third bottle of Talisker, so that may be enough for him to start talking in the third person, but it’s still odd.

Like I said, I’m not sold on this theory, but we’ve got at least three years of clowning to do so why not have fun with it?

#good omens #good omens season 2 #good omens theories #crowley #crowley was lucifer #the raven's musings

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metamatronic · 8 months

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rolls up with my “what if lucifer was to crowley/raphael as crowley is to aziraphale” headcanon

imagine the pain of crowley raphael not being able to save lucifer, falling in the process, and then seeing aziraphale go through the same process and constantly fearing he was going to drag aziraphale down with him the same way lucifer did to him.

#anthony j crowley #crowley good omens #gomens #good omens spoilers #gos2 #lucifer good omens #satan good omens #raphael!crowley #crowley!raphael theory #art #doodles #meta talks #comic #digital art #fanart #my art #also i love how people were saying “omg you made satan look like adam”#and i’m like actually i think they just cast adam to look like satan’s VA #i can’t take claim for that little detail

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andsomemaniacgotridofthewheel · 1 month

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One possible plot line for season 3 I have heard about was "Heaven misplaced Baby Jesus", which would be neat because it would actually explain why Heaven needed Aziraphale the incompetent principality rebellious angel saboteur traitor to take charge of the search. He knows Earth, and he has experience in finding a misplaced (Anti-)Christ.

But a) lost Anti-Christ has already been done in book & season 1

And b) the Jesus of the Second Coming is supposed to arrive in his fully adult form, not as a baby.

And suddenly it popped into my head: what if Jesus wasn't misplaced but instead very deliberately pulled a Lucifer? (Not the Good Omens Lucifer, Lucifer Morningstar from the show Lucifer, which is based on the Lucifer from Sandman.)

What if he said, you know what Mom, I'm done, I'm not helping to destroy the world and judge people, I'm going on vacation, booked a flight (on Thy Kingdom Airways?) and will be at the beach with a martini. Pretty sure I've earned it. So long! ... and don't call.

And then Crowley & Aziraphale have to find him first because without him they also cannot stop this 2nd Apocalypse!

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mochatheangelkiller · 9 months

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Crowleys "oh you have no idea" to Aziraphale at the end of episode 6 has me thinking we were kind of right about Crowley being a former Archangel in a sense. The way he was acting around Michael when she was talking about Gabriel and how he responds to some things said about heaven is so interesting. Its not a way you'd expect a former regular angel to respond

#i can also see it in the way gabriel responded to michael saying hes the only supreme archangel left #i know she ment satan/lucifer but come ON #michael good omens #gabriel good omens #crowley good omens #aziraphale #good omens #atlas rambles #theories

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