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kob131 · 5 years

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https://sokumotanaka.tumblr.com/post/185075585017/chill-disscussion

Ah yes, because the guy who shat himself in rage because RWBY ended up in the same game as Persona is such a reliable source....

So with death battle’s upcoming Mitsuru vs Weiss match I wanted to talk about, mostly nerd out about mitsuru, look regardless on weather you like rwby or not weiss isn’t on mitsuru’s skill level.

Spoiler Alert: he uses numerous conflicting examples and sources to effectively inflate Mitsuru as a fighter.

(I mean she fought two gods and lived to tell about it.)

Neither of which she is confirmed to fight. That’s the issue with feats like these: they rely on possibility. And it's equally likely that Mitsuru did nothing. Only Makoto is canonically confirmed to fight the Nyx Avatar.

In fact, the closest thing to a canonical representation of the battle was the P3 movie Winter Of Rebirth...where Mitsuru is fighting Shadow hordes, not Nyx who is getting soloed by Makoto. And since Makoto is a Wild Card user. he would be VASTLY more powerful than Mitsuru.

As for Erebus: Again, only one person (Aegis) was required in the fight. So we don’t know.

So let’s talk about mitsuru and then weiss as combatants. Both women fight on teams and manipulate ice in some way. They both summon things That’s about all I can compare, why? cause I took a deep dive into both series, and I’ll be frank, mitsuru fighting gods and monsters that can cause nukes is a feat enough.

That was enough for ‘Yu Vs. Jotaro’...

And again: That’s not confirmed. The only god you could be talking about here is Erebus-

And you know what? I’m just gonna preemptively go full Autism on you.

here’s Erebus’ stats according to the Megami Tensei wiki:

STR: 80 MAG: 75 END: 90 AG: 60 LUC: 70

And here are the stats of all the party memebers in Persona 3 at Level 99:

Junpei: 82 44 69 56 53

Yukari: 50 91 55 55 53

Akihiko: 69 70 55 63 47

Mitsuru: 55 85 52 61 51

Aigis: 61 58 84 56 45

Ken: 55 66 58 70 55

Koromaru: 58 56 58 82 50

Notice something?

The so called ‘mountain crusher’s’ STR stat is LOWER than the best physical attacker and Junpei’s never seen cracking any mountains.

Not just that but Mitsuru also has average agility (which dictates speed and hit rate with physical attacks) and average luck (dictating the success of status attacks) alongside the LOWEST END stat in the game meaning she wouldn’t be able to keep up with Weiss, she’d most likely fail using status attacks since they have a base success rate of 25% and one solid physical hit would do serious damage.

So right there are reasons why Weiss would have a chance if we follow your apparent standards of using gameplay.

But mitsuru is the team’s tactician and well studied in her academics despite fighting monsters, she’s top of her grade, she’s a great fighter and when she returns in persona 4 arena/ultimax she’s kinda insane as a fighter. (going through the full story in both’s massive text walls would take ages But I played through both a few months back and the things they write them capable of doing is insane)

yeah, like saying a monster can crush mountains but is weaker than an above average baseball player?

Then we have a little issue of; she’s not the tactican. Makoto is. Mitsuru is just the boss.

Yeah and? Can see use it in the battlefield?

Most death battle fighters are great fighters.

Also so now we’re using Arena as an example? Does that mean you accept her moveset in that game as canon? Meaning No status moves and no Diarahan?

so I decided to come up with a post (originally a power point before it crapped out) as to why mitsuru at her current skill is just too much for weiss.

So we’re using gameplay as a basis with Mitsuru’s P3 stats and her P4A moveset, judging how you’re talking.

Let’s talk about mitsuru first

Mitsuru kirijo:

Feats/Abilities/skills:

Mitsuru is top of her grade, she’s so good the school often ask her to make speeches for assemblies that rouse the school so much, the principal tried copying them word for word out of jealousy.

And? So is Weiss so which school has higher standards? Also speech giving ability Is not the same as tactical thinking.

Despite also studying for school, she leads and runs S.E.E.S as a tactician (a chairman actually has the final say on everything but she leads them in battle) Her persona is both good for combat and sensory support (meaning she can sense her allies and other people, persona and non persona users)

On and off mind you as you’re only required to go into Tartarus occasionally and extended time in Tartarus will wear out a Persona user.

Meanwhile, Weiss’ studies ARE fighting since she needed to qualify for Beacon so her life has been revolving around being a good fighter.

Mitsuru’s persona can conjure ice in an instant and is completely unaffected but any ice type attacks done to her, she doesn’t even react at all.

She can also heal and is a pretty good healer in battle (When she isn’t casting marin karin! Regardless there’s no rule in death battle that says they can’t heal, the only rule was outside help and with the last handful of death battles some of them had healing factors)

She can also charm her enemy or cause them to go into panic

Yeah and she’s super weak to fire.

And-wait a minute. Why are you referencing Diarahan and status attacks in the same post as the one where you try citing feats from Arena? Are you just picking choosing what Mitsuru gets?

Mitsuru doesn’t need to use her evoker and can actively summon her persona in the real world. (This is also mentioned in persona 4 arena and shown in battle as mitsuru states she only uses it out of habit.) This is also stated by when she calls her persona in both the game and manga she doesn’t use her evoker.

Bullshit.

This is from Mitsuru’s first battle in Persona 4 Arena.

And even IF she does summon her Persona without her Envoker here: She’s in a different world. Same in Ultimax.

You’re just lying at this point.

Also: That ice spear doesn’t look very impressive when you remember Weiss summoned an ice WALL that fast in Volume 1. Yeah, if you’re gonna use outlier feats, so will I.

She is able to again as I said snap second conjure ice within seconds in any shape she deems necessary

Proof and no, the ice mirror from P4A doesn’t count.

Non persona users can’t see persona (one guy remakes on how he sees a silhouette but only cause he’s standing next to her, another character natsuki walks into a battle and can’t see the others persona from the distant she’s at.

And yet in Persona 4 Yosuke reacts to seeing Yu’s Persona awakening.

Her persona Artemisia has a whip that can reach long distances and instantly freeze her opponents, she can also make floating and homing projectiles.

A. That whip thing: proof

And B. Only in Arena which you pick and choose which to use.

Mitsuru herself is remarked as moving faster than the eye can react when others watch her fight her shadow, this is also reflected in her normal combots where she moves faster than the eye can see and can hit a person over 15 times (don’t believe me? watch her combo video)

https://youtu.be/fw-2yn_vKG0

Pretty sure the same thing happened in CTB with Weiss-Point is?

And at one point while fighting naoto a person with a gun who is also a persona user is able to disarm and disable in two fluid motions.

Disarm who? When? under what circumstances? Also a gun shoulding matter if Mitsuru can tank nukes right?

Need I stress mitsuru is incredibly smart, she has to run a magic C.I.A and outsmart a bunch of idiotic men in suits who think she can’t handle it, and had to at one point outsmart detective naoto, which is a feat in itself.

https://sokumotanaka.tumblr.com/post/185075529807

A. She runs it with help

B. You said ‘idiotic’

and C. Your post proves nothing

Weaknesses:

Fire is mitsuru’s weakness and while that sounds like an easy solution remember when weiss’s weapon starts burning with fire, mitsuru is either gonna back off, or disarm her.

That being said it’s her only weakness.

She also has average agility, less versatility, unreliable versatility, no debuffs or buffs aside from Mind Charge, limited mobility, a reliance on her Persona for big attacks and Mitsuru is never shown disarming someone so thee fire weakness is still major point. Especially by P3 standards which would cause her to be dazed and buy Weiss time.

That might seem bogus as being it but mitsuru has a lot of “human” weaknesses that won’t come into the death battle.

as a fight she is the superior, not just because I prefer her but because she’s been doing this longer and has to manage a fighting lifestyle and being a normal woman dealing with people who probably think she’s breaking the law for speaking out of turn with them.

Like what? Are you afraid they’re gonna bring up how Mitsuru and other Persona users tire out in places where they can use their Personas?

Also most of what you said doesn't pertain to Death Battle.

Up’s:

(this here is the things each fighter has against the other in terms of the fight.)

Persona is invisible to weiss

Persona and her ice magic have the superior reach

Mitsuru is older and more experienced

Mitsuru is smarter as she was the tactician of a team while also juggling high school.

Wrong

Unproved

Unsubstainated and unreliable

Unproven

Great upsides

Weiss schnee:

Feats/abilities/skills:

Weiss on the other hand doesn’t have much going for her. (let’s list these first)

Weiss’s semblance

Weiss’s fire dust (albeit finite)

Weiss’s speed glyph

Ignored how her glyphs can be used to leap and jump in air

Ignored how fast her glyphs can make her (stunning Flynt)

Ignored her Wind, Ice and Earth dusts

Ignored her Time Glyph which gave Blake the ability to slice lazer beams in order to cut down missiles in mid flight (outlier feat I know but has that stopped Soku?)

Ignored her Armor Gigas which is shown to be incredibly durable and powerful, slicing apart a Grimm that tanked several boxes of Dust exploding on it without a scratch

Ignored her Queen Lancer giving her projectile attacks, aerial mobility and backup

Ignored her Ice Wall which historically held the stringer of a complex sized scorpion in place for several minutes.

Wow you ignored a lot.

Weaknesses:

Weiss drops her weapon, alot, it happens often.

When weiss is surprised, she freezes up

weiss doesn’t have the experience to fight off mitsuru.

weiss hasn’t fought against opponents on mitsuru’s level or fought against gods/god tier monsters.

Example

Unproven

Neither has Mitsuru

Up’s:

Fire dust

Speed glyph

Summon size change.

And the stunning coming from Fire Dust

And The ice wall giving her a time borrowing option

And the Armor Gigas being stronger physically

And The Queen Lancer being agile, flying and having built inprojectiles

And her Time Glyph giving her a powerful ranged option

And her glyphs giving her far greater mobility

And her speed glyphs giving her a blitz option.

Funny how if you explain shit and pay attention, you see things are actually very even. But hey, Soku’s never been honest when it comes to RWBY so why start now?

Real talk?

Weiss in her one on one fights has lost to all her opponents. White fang lieutenant, Flynt, And Vernal.

All powerful close range combatants. Something Mitsuru is not.

The third whom I must stress is a normal bandit, she doesn’t summon things herself, use magic, she’s not a god trapped in a human body, she’s just a normal woman, and she beats weiss down, while weiss struggles to get afoot and she loses this bout as well.

Let's just ignore how vernal is technically stronger than a complex sized scorpion and was posing as a demigod at the time....

Now I know it seems like I’m only glossing over negatives, which I must stress I’m not doing out of dislike, I took a deep dive-

Bullshit. One look at Persona then RWBY shows you doing the bare minimum for RWBY while giving Mitsuru the best versions of all her elements.

For example super and goku one which has insane feats that the other will never reach, hench each one literally ending with clark winning.

superman just has feats that are too insane.

Superman lifted infinity. Mitsuru help weaken one giant Shadow that was aid to be strong enough to destroy a mountain and yet it's strength stat is weaker than Junpeis. (And before you complain about me using gameplay on a supposed non gameplay feat-Erebus HAS NO non gameplay feats.)

They are nowhere compatible, even in the comparison range.

Weiss can kick some grimm ass, but we’ve yet to see her have a decisive victory against an opponent single combat.

where as we get to see/play (depending on weather you read the manga or play both arena/ultimax (both are canon because it’s the same thing but contextualized as a comic) mitsuru fights people with the same skill as her and comes out on top.

A. By the same standards, Mitsuru is in the same boat as Weiss

B. You’re using Arena as your line for feats but not moveset (or even consistently as feats since you still quote P3)/

And C. Np she didn’t. The investigation team is LESS experienced than Weiss so logically they’d be easier if we accepted your interpretation.

The winner should be Mitsuru with all due respect.

And yet you feel the need to lie about Mitsuru and completely gloss over and lowball Weiss.

God, now i’m scared because not only does this scream ‘Ben and Chad, do as I say or else’ but since you’re lying, it makes it seem like Weiss will WIN in a fair fight.

Word of warning Soku: I will tear you verbally into shreds if you so much as glare at Ben and Chad. And god help you if Dudeblade recognizes your bullshit.

#sokumotanaka

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thecardaddy · 5 years

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wutheringmights · 26 days

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can i ask for the hot mess commentary plz?

sure

Before we crack into this, take a moment to read what I said about the neck thing. I write that up a long time ago, but it provides some important context and is a good refresher on the secret history of Spirit's bi awakening.

Also, the director's commentary for this chapter is here, in case you want to review that.

Good? Okay, let's go at it.

So.... they had sex. Yay. Insert jazz hands.

I feel like I actually have way less to talk about here than I did for the neck thing. Granted, a lot of the neck thing is behind the scenes stuff. I guess that's a good place to start.

You may recall the informal hiatus CTB went on after Spirit came back to Warriors's era. I used a lot of that time to actually work out how to end CTB and what character/plot points I would need to hit to have a satisfying conclusion.

During this time, I was listing out things about Spirit and Warriors that I need to return to. Spirit had his codependent histories with the greenhorn and Zelda, or really his strategy for offering himself up as a means of feeling more in control, that needed to be explored. I needed to do some kind of follow-up with Warriors's latent attraction.

The two topics were similar enough to make me want to tackle them at once. But the moment I did, my brain decided that they should hate fuck. (I definitely was also thinking about my old concept of Spirit's unrequited crush-- I still write the characters like that happened, even if it never actually made it into the story.)

Why hate sex? Honestly, it would be kinda funny. Plus, it's a good writing exercise to ask yourself what would happen if your characters in conflict did (not really).

I knew immediately it could only end badly for everyone involved. But I knew I needed Warriors to hit an emotional low point to motivate him to do his Castle Town plan. I knew I wanted Spirit's big speech to come at a time when he and Warriors were emotionally connecting again, and that the response to that speech needed to push him back to Time.

Shit, I thought. This might be what they do.

But, like. I love protecting my peace. I have been skirting around the edges of homo eroticism with Spirit and Warriors as much as I dared. I didn't want to invite angry anons. But then.... did I really care? I understand where people are coming from, but at the same time... this is such a minuscule non-issue. Truly, and with emotion: who even cares?

First off, we already established with the neck thing that whatever fucked up thing these two have going on does not count as shipping. And second, if it does count as shipping, then fine! It's shipping then. This is what the plot is. I've been working on this story for too long to compromise now. I'll reap the consequences, whatever they may be.

I decided to keep it on the books, half believing I would change my mind once the chapter came up.

I was feeling very confident about my choice, up until the day of posting. That was then I got slammed in the face with regret. Luckily, there hasn't been any issues. I may have overestimated as much the general populous care about CTB. If there was ever any confirmation that this story has the world's most niche audience, this is it.

And you all have been great. There's been a lot of encouragement and kind words from you the readers, after you all stopped yelling, of course.

(Though I was prepared to be an obstinate jackass to anyone who tried to complain. I found a loophole and was ready to exploit the hell out of it. I was so ready!)

Funnily enough, everyone's reactions to the past few chapters helped to reassure me the most. There was been a lot of jokes about Warriors and Spirit having the world's worst situationship (lol).

So them having sex turned into an important character and plot moment. Warriors and Spirit got built up and tore down in self-destructive ways. This experience becomes the wake-up call Warriors needed to decide that he was ready to stop being the hero and get his life back.

A lot of people expressed surprise that Warriors and Spirit would go through with it even after talking it out. To be honest, I was a little surprised too! I was half convinced that Warriors had grown enough to stop the self-destructive cycle and turn Spirit down. But when looking at the scenes leading up to them being alone-- from Twilight denounce his friendship with Warriors, Toto turning him away, and Warriors generally in an emotional rut over his intellect and lost beauty--I realized that Warriors was already in the middle of another downward spiral. He would go through with this, if only to feel valued. It was the war all over again.

Also, apparently half of you guessed that Warriors would get cigarette burns from Spirit eventually. I hope you all were happy with the results!

When I posted that snippet from the chapter, apparently all of you knew that a kiss was coming. Ooops. I'm a little glad I surprised all of you with what happened next afterward.

On to funnier things:

I meant for there to be more compare/contrasts between Warriors's nights with Icarius and Spirit. The only one I really managed to do was Link being unable to sleep next to Icarius vs Warriors falling asleep easily.

Because this chapter and the last were supposed to be one, this scene was supposed to come out around Valentine's Day. Could you imagine?

I had the silliest time trying to figure out how to get Warriors and Spirit alone in a room together. I had this grand plan about them needing to get a room in a different inn from the others, whether because they were too tired to walk home after dancing or because they were too drunk to remember the way. Then I realized that Ganondorf could just give the Chain enough money to get more rooms. I realized this way later than I should have.

If you're wondering.... they switched....

I wrote that Warriors thought that sex with Spirit felt like an argument. That is because they are both the bossiest motherfuckers in bed. They both want things done their way or else. It's combative. Unfortunately, they both like the challenge.

I did have an idea for how to end this whole matter in a funny way, both involving someone from the chain finding out.

In my first idea, Time barges into what he thinks is just Warriors's room, in the middle of some kind of rant. Then he sees both of them sitting in bed, pauses, then promptly walks out. Warriors and Spirit quickly get dress before there's a knock on the door. When Warriors opens, Time walks in casually and starts his rant again while pretending none of this had happened. He would wait until Warriors was alone to be like WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!

My other alternate scenario involves Warriors and Spirit getting a room in a different inn. In the morning, Spirit is hurriedly trying to leave when there's a knock on the door. This time, it's a few members of the chain asking if he's seen Warriors anywhere. He says no. All but one walk away. The one who stays (probably Legend) would lean and discreetly tell him that he knew the room was under Warriors's name, so if they were done, could he tell Warriors to get his ass outside? Cue Spirit burning up in embarrassment.

EDIT: I actually had a third silly scenario idea. Similar to the others, Twilight barges in to talk to Warriors about Midna (they're still friends in this scenario; this was an idea from a long time ago). Warriors is still in the bed, but luckily Spirit is in the bathroom. Warriors tries to have a normal conversation without alerting Twilight that something was amiss. And it almost works until Spirit just walks out of the bathroom, waves, and goes to put his clothes on. Cue Twilight's 404 error.

So, yeah! That's the Hot Mess. As always, it's been really fun to see everyone's reactions. Warriors and Spirit are both extremely polarizing, and I love hearing everyone's hot takes.

Does this count as toxic yaoi? Not until I see an AMV to "Numb" by Linkedin Park. Luckily, Warriors and Spirit will never do this again. Probably.

#same rules as last time: please keep this out of the main tag #it's been fine so far but let's not tempt fate lol #feel free to ask follow up questions as well #me rambling #lu ctb #ctb lore #ctb spoilers #the hot mess #ctb commentary

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fallingintheforest · 1 year

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@wutheringmights

CTB update spoilers:

Spirit in the present, now that he is tall and beefy and can absolutely take Warriors in a fight.

#time is very stressed #ctb spoilers #CTB #flying skull crushers have been banned

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wutheringmights · 1 month

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AUTHORS COMMENTARY FOR NEW CTB PLSSSSS😭😭😭

Thank you! I would be more than happy to explain myself.

My commentaries have, historically, been a pain in the butt to read on a formatting level. I have attempted to fix this by breaking up the commentary into labeled sections. Consequently, this led to me writing out way more than I normally would.

So, enjoy.

[The Past]

Pre-Festival & Festival Day

As I mentioned previously, I wrote a significant part of this past section for the last chapter-- all the way up until Link asks for Icarius’s name. I ended up cutting the chapter into two for space, which meant that there was a few weeks between writing the first and second half of the icarius stuff.

I really did not spend as much time with the latter half as I wanted to, and I think it suffers for it. I’ll elaborate on that in a second. Let’s try to stick to talking about the chapter in a somewhat chronological order.

I joked about this last weekend, but Jakucho is extremely funny for hearing Link speculate about Icarius and Nephus and deciding, “Yup. Not my problem. Have fun with that.” Of course, she thinks he’s obsessed with Nephus and not Icarius.

Gaze upon my weak attempt to confirm Ayane is trans. I think this might have been a bit of a clunky way to do it. I never know how to get characters to confirm their identities without it sounding too much like a script read. Hopefully, this was at least clear if not entirely blatant.

Holidays are such an important part of world building, and I think it is very silly when you are in a fun little fantasy world and they celebrate not-Christmas or the like. That being said, sometimes you are so exhausted of any ideas that you have to sit down and say “Fuck it. Off-brand Halloween.”

That being said, having a holiday to mourn the loss of the Sacred Realm feels fitting for the world, even if the inclusion of masks was a bit clunky.

I really do think an under-explored area of Zelda lore is that the goddess’s realm is just... gone. Corrupted. Where are the goddesses now that the Sacred Realm is the Dark World? Is there a holy crusade to restore the Dark World to the Sacred Realm? I think Nintendo could do a dark fantasy spin off about this. Or when I finally get around to running that Hyrule homebrew DND campaign I have been cajoling my friends into playing, I’ll make it a plot point.

Now that I am typing this, I am realizing that I really should have had a little moment where all the masks forces Link to remember the child. Fuck.

In my original vision, Icarius was going to be very polite and quiet while at Jakucho’s estate, only for his next scene to be him snarking at some guys during a bar fight. What a bait and switch that would have been.

When I was a kid, I genuinely thought that the keaton mask was supposed to be a Pikachu mask (in part because I had only seen it in my cousin’s copy of Super Smash Bros). Hence, the yellow fox vs yellow mouse banter.

Link’s House / Icarius Backstory

Writing Icarius and Link banter was surprisingly difficult. I have this whole vision in my head about these two being loving to verbally spar with each other. And for some reason, the dialogue was just not flowing the other day.

And by the other day, I mean that a part of my major revisions the day of posting was to fix this entire section. Did it work? Not really. But I got a D grade prose up to a B-, and that was going to have to do.

My biggest gripe is their conversation in Link’s house, where Icarius info-dumps his entire backstory. In my brain, this scene would have felt dark and moody while still being a little romantic. They definitely hit all the points I needed them to hit for the plot, but it just... it’s so stilted. It doesn’t feel like Icarius is unloading years-worth of grievances on someone who he can trust to listen, if only for a night. It feels like Icarius is reading from a script. Ugh.

There was going to be an in-story explanation from Icarius as to why his hair is bleached that never actually came up. For those curious, it’s that Nephus had the grand idea first to bleach his hair but was worried it wouldn’t look good. So he had Icarius dye his first. Sure enough, he thought it looked terrible and decided to not go through with his end. Icarius was going to be very annoyed by that and would bitch about how long it would take for him to grow it out again.

I originally was not going to give him the bleached hair to begin with, but after everyone made fun of Warriors for not recognizing him in the first place, I felt like I had to make a significant change to his appearance. It actually helped to get him to play the role I needed him to play in Link’s post-war problems.

Let’s rewind. In my original outline, Icarius was never here in Kakariko. This entire chapter would have instead been Link deciding on his own terms to get over his hang-up over being involved with men and going out to flirt with one. This would have been a random soldier who had been discharged and was just passing through town on his way home from the war. Link would have subconsciously been attracted to him because he resembled the engineer.

For example, he would have made some comment about liking how strong his hands were.

This soldier was truly going to be a random guy. At most, he would have mentioned rooming with a friend on-leave named Arlo (who appeared earlier in story as a soldier in the trenches). The whole point was that Link felt like he could connect with another person as long as he didn’t give them a chance to look too deeply into him.

But after the House of Nephus characters were all introduced, I realized I needed to find some way to elaborate on them. Switching out the random soldier for Icarius was the easiest move.

Does it work? Kinda? It definitely helps the obsession plotline, but the original point got lost among all of the Icarius backstory.

So, Icarius backstory. I feel terrible for everyone who was looking forward to Link being swept away in a beautiful, touching romance. I tried to warn you.

Icarius and his relationship with Nephis is fascinating to me, and I really feel like I only have time to scratch the surface. Icarius is very smart, but believes that Nephus is one the “good ones.” But he can see that Nephus is starting to lose respect for him, so he plays these tricks to remind him that he’s still needed. He knows its foolish but his entire like has encompassed Nephus and he’s scared to know what it would look like without him. It works for a while, but not long enough. The reader knows that it stops working because that smart mouth of his that always picks fights gets taken away.

And that’s not even addressing the greater society Icarius lives in or the way Philo’s addition changes things for him even more.

All that’s to say that even if Icarius is not the perfect romantic lead people were hoping for, I intended to suggest in-story that if either him or Link were in different circumstances, there could be something there.

I actually really like the idea of Warriors’s love interest being an agent of an enemy state who is mean to him in the exact way he thinks is hot. Instead of inventing Hylian soldier or Sheikah warrior OC’s to be Warriors’s love interest, can there be more of this? It doesn’t even need to be Icarius. I just think falling-in-love with-the-enemy-but-the-enemy-is-a-shithead-about-it is an extremely funny dynamic.

There is also nothing funnier than Icarius thinking he’s met a nice, normal guy only to realize mid-act that he Messed Up

Also I hope this contexts helps fill-in the blanks for some of Icarius’s actions in the present day, which is no doubt a lot of “oh crap, it’s that guy I screwed that one time” and “how dare you forget about the one time we screwed!”

Post-Icarius Timeskip

I really needed to spend a few days at least on that last bit about Link’s realization. It’s so pivotal for his character, and I really just shoved it in at the end there. I’m going to have to add a lot of flowery prose to the beginning of next chapter to make up for it.

That being said, it’s important to me that there really isn’t a specific trigger for him realizing what he’s done. He just finally feels comfortable and safe enough for his brain to start processing everything he did.

It was very important to me that Link decided to stop dwelling in his past by putting a bowl into his cabinet, only for that bowl to break when he realizes what he’s done. Symbolism and stuff.

[Present Day]

Ganondorf’s Arrival & Townhouse

I’m really happy that so many of you were excited for Ganondorf’s arrival last chapter. That scene was so cheesy that I was worried it would dampen the excitement of actually getting to see him.

Originally, Ganondorf and Lincoln were going to have their argument in a bedroom, but I moved it to the foyer for convenience sake. But in my mind, I never moved Lincoln’s starting place from hiding in Ganondorf’s room, hence why he started the scene at the top of the stairs and not a more logical spot (in the hallway).

The reason it was going to be in the bedroom was because I thought Lincoln had snuck past Ganondorf’s guards and housestaff. But they all know about Lincoln, so it made more sense for Lincoln to subtly enter through the back entrance. It’s a whole thing.

I think my favorite part of the Chain already being at Ganondorf’s house is that there’s an implied subplot that happened off-screen where they plus Lincoln had to go hunting for where they thought Ganondorf was staying.

When Spirit pretends to not know who Ganondorf is, there was going to be a joke where the boys are trying to explain everything and he’s like “oh, so we’re all being racist here.” I ended up cutting it because, well, they were being racist.

Speaking of which, the whole thing with the maid calling Warriors “my lady” is that Warriors was going to try to gently correct her (because he thinks she’s stupid), only to find out that she was just being passive aggressive

Some may remember that one of the hardest cuts I made to CTB was a reporter OC. You can definitely tell that I am massively regretting that cut right now. Imagine how could it would have been for Warriors to pressure this antagonist journalist who’s been reporting all his fuck-ups into helping him fix everything. That sub plot would have been so good.

I was going to have a few of the other heroes confront Warriors as to why he credited Zelda, reaching a similar conclusion that his narration provided. Ended up cutting it for space.

A lot of the black blood stuff that I came up with for this chapter really doesn’t hit with LU, but at this point, I really don’t care.

There’s something about how Spirit viewing monsters and humans the same resulting in him very easily killing people while also being the only one who would realize that black blooded monsters could have always been cured, had anyone thought about it before. I just enjoy the way this man thinks.

Also, Spirit really enjoying spicy food is such a stupid character quirk, and I am almost ashamed of how much effort I went to develop it. Originally, I wanted Wild to get so fed up with Spirit being unimpressed with his cooking that he would demand Spirit to cook one night, only to discover that he actually can’t cook and just overcompensates with a shit-ton of hot sauce.

Ganondorf’s speech about how to win a war is partly the result of me spending months ruminating about how the Triforce could be used to end a war ethically, and partly an exploration of how Ganondorf thinks

I wanted to do one last scene of everyone leaving, where Wind would confront Time about being an asshole to Ganondorf. I cut it for space, then convinced myself that I would have time to add it back in, only to then cut it for time. My apologies to the Wind fans who have gotten nothing as of late.

Hospital & Family Dinner

I said before that I wasn’t initially going to rescue Toto until the end, which means that I had no plan for how Toto would feel until now. I realized that Toto was just... done. He wanted no part in Warriors’s life any longer. Unlike Kat, who got a lovely send off, I think this will be the last we see of Toto: an unfinished, unresolved mess of emotions.

When I was first describing Lincoln’s casual fit, I remember thinking to myself that I was just describing a semi-retired aged rockstar. The image has not left my brain, and if I was willing to throw a few more anachronisms into the story, I would have 100% described Lincoln like that.

Fun fact: Orlanda’s family was going to come back in the form of her sibling being a prominent member of the rebellion. I didn’t do it because it was getting ridiculous how many relevant people were related to each other.

When I was first coming up with Linkle’s character, I had the idea that she had that shallow form of feminism where it’s a big win for women everywhere when, say, generic action heroine wears pants. So I had it in my mind that Linkle hates dresses on principle. So during the fever dream sequence, when Warriors dreamt that Linkle was fawning over a dress, it was to show that he didn’t really know her that well.

But I never really established this idea that well and no one knew this about Linkle, so into a dress she goes.

I told myself that I was going to scour the entire story to double check if I had ever described Lincoln laughing anywhere, but never got around to it. But the nice thing about unreliable narrators is that if I get something wrong, I can just blame Warriors (that is not really how unreliable narrators work)

I have a friend who “tee-hees” while she laughs, and it’s the cutest thing ever. I just think it would be fun if Lincoln also has an adorable little kitten laugh.

I had to look up how they build roads on dunes for this chapter.

I did write the full Lincoln and Ganondorf backstory in a post way back when, if anyone wants to review it. It would be nice to get to get all the small details into the main story, but it’s really not pertinent to any of the main action

I definitely talked about Niko before, but I can’t find the posts. To refresh: Niko is Spirit’s uncle, in that he’s a member of the Macaryll family but no one can remember who he’s actually related to. Spirit’s parents are dead, and he lived with a different uncle and aunt until his apprenticeship. Then he moved in with Niko since he lived near Alfonzo.

Warriors hating chocolate is a character quirk that’s not necessary to the story, but I just think is too funny to not go out of my way to include

The idea of Linkle and Lincoln dancing came from a completely different scene idea. I played around with doing a similar set-up while the Chain is on the road to the Zora’s Domain. The scene would start with Sky showing Lana how to do a Skyloftian dance, which would lead to everyone else showing off their moves. When Warriors admits that he doesn’t think he could dance anymore, Spirit would teach him a New Hyrulean dance that required only one hand.

That led to an idea of Warriors dancing with Linkle and Lincoln, then just Linkle and Lincoln dancing themselves.

The night was going to end with Warriors forgetting his scarf and, when he went back to get it, he would overhear Lincoln venting to Ganondorf about how the whole stepping up as the parent thing is going. This got cut because it’s more fascinating when you’re forced to infer that a character is thinking.

The Walk Back & Out Dancing

This scene of Warriors and Spirit walking back together and opening up is my real pride and joy this chapter, which unfortunately got massively overshadowed by everything else.

So I will now take time to gush.

Spirit’s photography... so I wanted to give this man a hobby because the man cannot just like trains. I know everyone headcanons it as his hyperfixation, but it’s also his job. He needs a richer life than just that one thing. Granted, I took the route of making him start as a trainspotter like the Spirit Tracks NPC Ferrus.

I just feel like I am so correct about Spirit liking photography. I want this to be my cultural impact. I know I said that already about Icarius, but I mean this more. Go forth and give that man a camera.

The official document Spirit was carrying around was his engineering license.

Also, I was 100% ready for everyone to flood me with questions about Spirit’s ex-boyfriend. After the ickywars ordeal, I figured that there was a significant chance y’all wouldn’t be normal about him. I was prepared. And you know what? I’ve heard zilch. So, let me info dump about this man now.

Spirit’s ex-boyfriend is named Jean. He is on the cusp of 30 (compared to Spirit’s 23/24). He’s a mechanic, which is a few steps below Royal Engineer. He lost his leg in a work accident when a piece of machinery fell on him. They met through work. Spirit goes through phases of being a serial dater before swearing off dating for a few months, but Jean is the first person to make it past an awkward first date and hit relationship status. Spirit thought that because he was older, he would be more understanding.

And Jean tried. He really did. But Spirit is massive defensive and always on the offensive, so every slight disagreement turned into an explosive argument. Jean decided that he could not deal with someone who could not have a rational conversation with him, so he dumped him after 6 months. This was fairly recent, about three months before Spirit returned to Warriors’s era.

Spirit was going to name drop Jean in his speech later, but I couldn’t figure out a way to make it clear who Jean was without it sounding awkward.

I really like Spirit and Warriors’s conversation about Icarius, if only because it shows where their communication fails. When Warriors insists that you have a duty to disobey bad orders, he is criticizing himself for falling into the military mindset. This sounds like a criticism to Spirit, who insists that people will do anything under orders because that is what he did.

After Warriors has spent nearly every chapter since his amputation bemoaning his disability, I really wanted there to be a moment where he realizes that just because his ability level is different, he doesn’t have to give up doing everything he loves. That’s just an important lesson for him to learn, even if it is a little inspiration-porn-y.

The Hot Mess

You might realize that there is a massive elephant in the room I am not going to discuss here. That is because this post is going into the main tag. No one has complained to me yet, but let’s not tempt anyone right now. Just like the Neck Thing, I’ll make a separate post later for anyone who wants it. Just remind me in a few days.

With that being said--

Them sharing a cigarette was another scene that was originally conceived as taking place during the trip to the Zora’s Domain. Spirit’s anecdote about failing to make friends would have served as an early hint about his loneliness and inability to make friends.

I also have never smoked a cigarette before, so I had to sit there on wikiHow reading up on how to smoke one without coughing.

The half in Spirit’s four and a half attempts at quitting is this time he decided to quit, only to relapse after three hours. It was too short to count as a full attempt.

Spirit’s speech hopefully reveals what exactly is Spirit’s problem, both how he sees it and how it really is. Unlike Warriors, he never found support and healing once the war ending. No one understood his experiences, and his coping mechanism of lashing out ward away anyone who could help him. Spirit just wants to feel better, but he doesn’t know how.

Like... his whole thing about starting his own garage-- he’s a child prodigy who is used to be good at the things he does. He ended up tarnishing his own reputation, so he threw himself back into work because working on trains and fulfilling his dream is supposed to make him happy. He’s successful, but he’s not satisfied.

I was also expecting people to have a ton of questions about why Alfonzo disowned Spirit. In short, Spirit was already on a thin line with his lashing out and shitty attitude. Alfonzo was willing to let that slide until he realized Spirit was breaking work regulations to go on more runs without taking the legally required amount of time to rest inbetween. Spirit was a legal liability. He fired Spirit, but made it very clear that he was doing him a favor by not reporting him and getting his Royal Engineering license suspended.

No one else in New Hyrule knows the real reason why Spirit was fired, so they all assumed it was his personality. So he has a bit of a reputation now for being hard to work with.

Another thing that was not 100% conveyed in Spirit’s speech was that even if he didn’t hurt Zelda, he could not be with her because he does not want to be Prince Consort. His experiences in Warriors’s Hyrule thoroughly scared him off from politics, though he would have refused anyway since he would never give up being an engineer.

Fundamentally, Spirit is an extremely lonely person who has felt abandoned by everyone in his life. He knows that his life is the way it is now because of his experiences with Warriors. His guiding principle is trying to find some way to fix himself so that he can get the life he was supposed to have, one where he is happy and loved.

I just... god, I love this character.

And then there’s Warriors, who feels like he not capable of change and that any opportunity he has to change has been denied to him. Fixing Spirit and Time’s relationship was supposed to be a part of his redemption. Making Spirit happy was supposed to mean he’s forgiven. He has no friends, not in the Chain or in Toto. No one needs him.

Warriors also just means so much to me. I adore this disaster of a human being.

Warriors’s Plan Out

Does Warriors’s plan make sense? I am assuming it does since no one expressed confusion, but nearly every comment thus far has exclusively been about the Hot Mess (understandable).

There was a reason I was peeved I had to cut every chance in earlier in the story to go back to Castle Town, and it’s because I’ve known that it was going to be an extremely important location.

Warriors choosing to forgo a glorious revolution in favor of maintaining (if not manipulating) the status quo is not a great philosophy for our protagonist to be spouting in 2024. In my defense: a) I came up with this story in 2021, which was a different real world landscape, and b) Warriors would never become this ideal hero.

It feels more true for Warriors to not really become the idealized hero. His best is not that great. But if he can’t help being the worst, he could at least use his methods for good.

I have mentioned before that I have low empathy. Lincoln’s speech about people naturally being better or worst at being good is a product of a lot of my musing about how I sometimes feel frustrated and resentful at how hard I find it to follow the social cues that would make me a “better person.” Wouldn’t I be a better person if I had an easier time recognize when someone is in trouble and needs my help. Instead, I have to depend on myself to remember the cues, and I am so prone to mistakes.

I want to be a kind person. I want to be the best person anyone has ever met, but it’s an uphill battle. I feel like I am always working against myself. But it’s still important that I make the choice every day to be kind to others.

Besides, I have been told that I am more kind and helpful than other people, if only because I don’t rely on my feelings when deciding to reach out to others. So it has its perks.

I’m not saying Warriors has low empathy. I have expressly written him as someone with empathy. But my philosophy that kindness and caring for others is an active choice just felt like it belongs here.

There is story-canon low empathy character that I wanted to reveal in story to help Warriors beat the accusations and get people to not armchair diagnose him. I am still holding out hope I will have time and space to explore this in story, but if I don’t--

Four is written to have low empathy. It’s a consequence of the Four Sword splitting up his emotions, making it extremely difficult to tap into more than one emotion at a time, much less his empathy towards others. He can feel how this change in himself and has some thoughts on the whole thing.

Is that the end of the chapter. Fuck yeah. I’ve been working on this since Monday, If you read all this... congrats! I hope it was worth it.

Also, I forgot to mention that this is the end of Act 5. My act system is a scam and not that important, but I figured I should let you all know.

#your bonus fact is that i misspelled ganondorf's name about twenty different ways while writing this chapter #the swiftness and volume of demands for a commentary was very funny #y'all really wanted me to explain myself #bonus bonus fun fact is that it took all my will power to not formally name the chapter the Hot Mess #but like the neck thing we will just have this informal title for the scene in question lol #me rambling #lu ctb #ask #linked universe #anonymous #ctb spoilers #ctb commentary #ctb lore #fallenleafofmaple #meanlesbean #shoot-i-messed-up #savimatteo2810

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wutheringmights · 4 months

Text

Earlier this week, I said that I wanted to go back and change a few details in CTB to accommodate an idea I had been previously on the fence about committing to. I am happy to say that I finally went in and fixed all the little details I wanted.

I don't want anyone to feel forced to reread any part of CTB, so here's what I'll do. I'll list out the chapters where the changes were made above the cut. Below the cut, I'll go into detail about those changes were. Then I'll go into more detail about why I needed to make those changes (which will definitely contain some oblique spoilers for future chapters).

Please note that you absolutely do not need to even read what the changes are. This won't really change anything you've already read. I did all of this for my personal peace of mind.

Where The Changes Were Made:

Chapter 11

Chapter 20

Chapter 23

Chapter 24

What Specific Changes Were Made:

Chapter 11:

When Warriors is searching for an earring to give to Wind, he finds a signet ring in his jewelry box. Here is the full passage:

He shuffled through each little section of the jewelry box, sorting through heirloom necklaces and bracelets. At the bottom, buried under a necklace made with fake pearls, was a signet ring. He pulled it out, holding it up to the light. The edges of the ring were ornately carved, swirls of vines leading up to an emblem of an golden octopus. He thumbed over the design. He forgot he had this: a memento from a nameless, old flame. Did his old flame come by the house while Warriors was gone and find no one there? When was the last time Warriors even thought of that man? He was getting distracted now. He shoved the signet ring back into the jewelry box, then started sorting through his smaller gift boxes to no avail.

Chapter 20:

Clarified that while Warriors had seen some foreigners with white freckles before, he never realized it was exclusively a Faovarian trait.

There is also a tiny moment where it is suggested that Icarius recognizes Warriors:

He twisted his head around, catching sight of a very tall man around the same age as him. He too wore the same uniform as the boy, but his hair was dark and unruly. Even his freckles took up more of his face, seeming to fall like dust down his neck. His eyes met Warriors's and, for a brief moment, Warriors swore he saw his lips part like he was about to say something. But just as quickly, he turned his face away, quick to meet the boy's gaze.

Chapter 23:

A series of minor details concerning Icarius.

Chapter 24:

Twilight asking Warriors if he's met Nephus before leads to him realizing he trusts Icarius and speculating if he's met Icarius before:

[...] Warriors didn’t know if that meant he could trust Icarius either. Yet, illogically, he did. He trusted Icarius without question. He knew it wasn't because he felt sorry for him. There was something else nagging at the back of his brain, though he couldn't say what it was. Maybe they had met before.

Why These Changes Were Made

When plotting out this last third of the story, I knew I had to be careful with what I chose to focus on, lest the story ended up being another 500K words long. In the many cuts I made to this back end of the story, I thought I could get away with leaving the House of Nephus characters mysterious.

Unfortunately, I was wrong. You guys are really interested in learning more about them, especially Icarius. So I've been looking for a way to give you guys more in-story information about them without ruining the pacing.

I've also been working on refining my ideas for chapter 26. That's going to be a.... clusterfuck of a chapter in every sense of the word, so I've been looking for ways to condense plot points.

My solution? I realized that I could replace a one-off original character in a preplanned plotline with Icarius. Doing so will allow me to still give Link an important moment of character growth while giving Icarius some much needed screen time.

But as you can guess from the "old flame" line... it's a small role that is now ten times more important by virtue of the character who plays it having both a name and earlier plot significance.

It wouldn't make sense for the story to have gone on this long without mentioning someone so significant to Warriors's past. As a longtime reader, you would think this brand new connection between these characters would have come out of left field.

Hence, I had to go in and adjust a few things so that future readers wouldn't be disappointed by shoddy writing.

And give me credit where it's due: it took less than a hundred words for me to fix the problem. Not only that, but I think my solution was rather elegant. Imagine being a new reader and seeing the signet ring with the octopus on it, only to see the octopus symbol appear chapters later on the battlefield. Insane for them. I hope they have fun with that.

#posting this feels like i am dropping the dumbest of bombs possible on you guys lol #the story: why does warriors feel innately safe around this man who should rightly be his enemy? does the secret lie in his past?#this post: yeah so i couldn't decide if they fucked or not #me rambling #lu ctb #ask #linked universe #ctb spoilers #ctb lore

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