#discussion of nuance in fiction

[waterberry-strawmelon]

just gonna go ahead and say this in advance—

if Riz does indeed come out in junior year, and he says, “I’m ace” or “I’m asexual” when referring specifically to his lack of romantic attraction, aromantic people are allowed to be upset about it.

#because yes of course some people irl say ace to mean both bc that’s how they personally identify #but in fictional media the distinction is necessary. especially with how few canonically aromantic characters even exist in ANY mainstream/ #popular media. #I assure you I’m not invalidating anyone who is ace and they mean that to include lack of romantic attraction. #But to look at this from a MEDIA PERSPECTIVE its irresponsible to do this w/out clarification that they also know the word aromantic exists #because otherwise that’s just a conflation of asexual and aromantic without any nuance #and an erasure of aromantic people who are not asexual. #Plus—name a single fucking time a character in mainstream/popular media has said the word aromantic. #Because I can name several instances where they say asexual. But I can’t think of ONE where they say aro or aromantic. #(Maybe that Isaac kid does in season 2 of Heartstopper? But I haven’t seen it so I’m not 100% sure.) #anyways. #the way this fucking fandom—and ANY fandom with a canon aro character—discusses the aromantic spectrum #is blatantly just to remove their own personal guilt for shipping that character with other characters and erasing their orientation. #because yes aromanticism IS a spectrum!! But when people talk about fabriz and say ‘he can still be ace!’ (Which is aro erasure) or #‘he can still be aro!’ They never SHOW riz still being aro or having any kind of complex relationship with romance. #I’m angry and I’m allowed to be. #I get that a ship you liked may be hard to let go of or something #But I’d be much less mad if all the fabriz fans said ‘yeah I know Riz is aro in canon and he and Fabian would never get together. #I just like to imagine it sometimes in fiction/fanon!’ Then that would be a WHOLE different conversation #Because then they’d at least be acknowledging that riz doesn’t feel romance in canon. That fabriz is something that actively #Goes against the canon characterization of one of those characters—and that’s fine. Just fucking ACKNOWLEDGE IT. #But most of these people either WANT fabriz to be canon/believe it WILL BE canon #OR I guess feel uncomfortable confronting the fact that they ARE erasing riz’s aromanticism so they don’t even acknowledge it at all. #fhjy #fantasy high #d20 #dimension 20 #riz gukgak #aromantic riz gukgak #fhsy

[liobi]

I've been seeing a weirdly high level of Dungeon Meshi discourse that just. Completely misses the point lately and I'm honestly kinda frustrated about it. So.

First point of address. Laios isn't canonically autistic. He is written in a way that lends itself to the reading of him being neuro divergent, and I think if he was a real person he would be on the spectrum, but the world of Dunmeshi itself does not have the concept of autism (yet). If it did you can bet the human enthusiast Kabru would have immediately pegged Laios as such. As for Falin, she'd also likely be ND but closer to ADHD judging by the relatively small amount we get to actually see her existing as a character.

NOW THAT THAT'S OUT OF THE WAY. Toshiro isn't being ableist with his expectations of Laios picking up on social queues and being angry that he doesn't get it! Laios is legitimately rude to him! In terms of micro-aggressions, he does it constantly and unintentionally. He straight up calls Toshiro strange looking and fucks up his name! But the thing is, Toshiro's biggest flaw is that he applies his cultural norms to his interactions with everyone, regardless of culture. Chilchuck and Mick have a small talk about how Toshiro, with zero indication of feelings beforehand or any romantic involvement, just asks Falin to marry him and expects it to go well, all because she looked at a bug and he thought she was the most unique and different woman he had ever met (small aside, almost all the women he had met at this point are either family, his dad's mistress that is more of a mom to him than his own mom, his retainers, and his uhhh indentured servants/Literal Slaves)(Itsuzumi is a whole ass other conversation that I'm not even remotely qualified to talk about). He's a man of high social status that's never had to think about that fact before, never had to examine the power and privilege he has at his disposal. As a result, his expectations of people to learn his cultural norms, something he's been used to in his homeland, go unmet and are a source of friction.

Here's a real life example. In the US Midwest, if a person slaps their knees and/or stands up, sometimes saying some combination of "Welp/it's getting late..." They're politely telling their guests "get the fuck out of my house." It's impolite to ask people to leave, even politely. This is absolutely arcane and insane, why would anyone do this? Society!

Toshiro has grown up in a place where he's had to be hyper-aware of these things, where he can't verbally state what he literally wants or means. And he's conformed! He's decided to do what's expected of him. Laios, on the other hand, instead chafed against the expectations put on him as the child of the village elder and against the way people treated Falin for being different. He gave up his privilege (assured house, home, fiancee, position and responsibility within their town) in order to pursue a freedom beyond the society he saw as wrong. Laios is fundamentally uninterested in people (as opposed to monsters and demi-humans which is why he's uniquely suited to dealing with the multicultural aftermath of The Whole Thing), but he values his loved ones and personal code of honor enough to do what he needs to protect those things, even if it means going against society.

Anyways this is a long winded way of saying Toshiro and Laios are complex characters and narrative foils of each other in the early narrative and shouldn't be turned into one dimensional parodies of themselves for the purpose of Hot Takes. Thanks.

#i saw so many people calling Toshiro ableist and still calling him Shuro Despite Everything #and other people saying Laios is a terrible near irredeemable person due to micro-aggressions #that i got fed up and word vomited #discourse is stupid!!! there are discussions to be had and points to be made but these are Fictional Characters #written by a Japanese woman with an extremely nuanced view of the world #dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon

[thetwistedbeauty]

“Morally Grey” Characters

Morally grey characters are a staple of literature and storytelling, and they can be some of the most compelling and thought-provoking figures in a narrative. These characters often blur the lines between good and evil, making readers question their motivations and actions. However, the acceptance of morally grey characters hinges on how their complexity is presented within the story. While morally grey characters can be intriguing and even empathetic, it becomes problematic when their moral ambiguity is used to excuse or downplay abusive or harmful behavior.

Complexity vs. Excuse: Morally grey characters should be portrayed with depth and nuance. Their actions and motivations should be explored in a way that allows readers to understand the complexity of their choices. However, this complexity should not serve as an excuse for abusive or harmful behavior.

Accountability: It's essential that morally grey characters are held accountable for their actions. Their choices, even if morally ambiguous, should have consequences within the story. This accountability demonstrates that the narrative acknowledges the impact of their behavior on others.

Character Development: Morally grey characters should ideally experience growth and change over the course of the story. They may grapple with their actions and seek redemption or self-improvement. This development adds depth to their character arcs and provides a path for reconciliation with the audience.

Exploring the Grey Area: Morally grey characters can serve as a vehicle for exploring ethical dilemmas and the grey areas of human nature. However, this exploration should be done with sensitivity and an awareness of the potential real-world implications.

Avoiding Glamorization: It's crucial to avoid glamorizing abusive or harmful behavior, even within the context of morally grey characters. Romanticizing or justifying such behavior can send harmful messages to readers.

Balanced Perspective: Authors should strive to present a balanced perspective on morally grey characters. This means acknowledging both their strengths and flaws, their virtues and vices. Readers should be encouraged to form their own opinions rather than having a character's behavior imposed as unquestionably acceptable.

In literature, morally grey characters can be some of the most captivating and thought-provoking figures, challenging readers to question their own moral compass. However, their complexity should never be used as a means to justify or romanticize abusive or harmful actions.

#morally grey characters #character complexity #character development #ethicaldilemma #Narrative nuance #abuse awareness #accountability in fiction #character arc #reader’s discussion #Game of Thrones #the count of monte cristo #The Silence of the Lambs #The Picture of Dorian Gray #The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo #American Psycho #Crime and Punishment #The Catcher in the Rye

[ladytemeraire]

Ok I binge watched both Enola Holmes movies and I am a bit wine at the moment so here are my thoughts:

I want all of Enola's clothes immediately thanks

Did not know I needed Henry Cavill as Sherlock Holmes but he has absolutely ROCKETED to the top of my personal favorite Sherlock Holmes portrayals

(The way he politely but firmly demands that Mycroft make Enola his ward? His delighted little "Ha!" when his baby sister beats him to the punch on a case? The way he immediately softens when he realizes someone held a knife to her throat (and he wasn't there to protect her)? They have a standing sibling date to check in with each other??? A+ Sherlock zero notes I would happily watch six seasons and three more movies of these two)

Related, I know Enola would always be in his shadow and thus she was right to turn down his offer, but I would also watch six seasons and three movies of Holmes & Holmes Detective Agency, oh my GOD GIVE ME THIS

The soundtrack for both movies absolutely WHIPS, it is exactly the right blend of Dramatic and Playful Period Murder Mystery without overpowering the visuals or demanding you Feel Things that aren't supported by what you're watching

The first movie does, unfortunately, suffer from the modern adaptation plague of "corsets are RESTRICTIVE and a CURSE" but that scene is mercifully brief and Enola proceeds to kick ass in appropriately structured and tailored period costume; also I will give her a pass since she was raised, as Mycroft says, as a wildling and so was probably not used to corsets and viewed them as a symbol of society trying to box her into a particular role.

Speaking of which, I was ready to go through the screen and fight everyone who wanted to force Enola into the mold of a Proper Lady, I should not have been surprised at the vehemence of my reaction and yet here we are

ALSO re: asskicking: ENOLA IS THE ANTI-MARY SUE, oh my God I was so delighted to see her being competent but not hypercompetent. She is resourceful and clever and skilled but she still gets bested sometimes, because she is a young woman facing off against unscrupulous men who are not pulling their punches! She wins through hard work and cleverness and it takes multiple tries for her to succeed!

I expected to be mildly annoyed at the romance but I actually really like Enola + Tewkesbury, they are v cute and I am surprisingly soft for competent badass lady + soft gardener gentleman and their whole relationship felt very organic rather than forced. (I did have some secondhand embarrassment at the ball in the 2nd movie but I suspect that is A Me Thing rather than a writing issue.)

Please see my previous post re: period dramas/romances and why Regency period costumes are boring as hell. MORE VICTORIAN/EDWARDIAN FANCY COSTUMES AND BALLS AND RELEVANT PINING PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

The social commentary in general is very very good, especially in the 2nd movie, but Edith's speech to Sherlock in the 1st movie absolutely knocks it out of the park

(Also speaking of Edith: Enola has two moms thanks for coming to my TED talk)

Holy SHIT I am so here for this version of Moriarty???

Enola setting her big brother up with Watson as a flatmate is a gift to me personally and I would like to thank everyone involved with that decision

#ladytemeraire talks about fictional characters #Enola Holmes #Enola Holmes 2 #expected to have a good time but did not expect to seriously love these movies #I don't feel qualified to talk about making the cast multiracial other than to say 'I like it' #there's probably nuance I would miss or not be the right person to discuss in depth #but: I liked it. It was refreshing and added nuance and I like it.

[kelprot-old]

there's something to be said about the idea of headcanons, and of plastering bits you resonate with onto pre-written characters, in an effort to "see yourself" in them. it's not malicious at all, but sometimes I wonder what the whole purpose of it is.

if it's for some kind of representation, to see certain ideas or traits manifest in a story you like, i would understand but also tell you to just like....go read something else. instead of ordering a hawaiian pizza minus the pineapple, just order a ham and cheese pizza. if that makes sense. lots of people on here love to post all about their favorite stories with queer headcanons, but refuse to take the step outside their realm of comfort and read something that has those queer themes actually interwoven into the story.

other times, people claim to do it just to see themselves reflected more in their favorite characters. which feels equally as flimsy to me. if you can't emphasize or even find enjoyment in a story if the characters dont resemble you (or an idealized you) in some way, then. idk. maybe work on that or something

#thisisnt like. a mean targeted post im moreso just thinking about things. i do this myself sometimes lol im not immune #anyways sorry im stuck at home for 6 weeks so im gonna be posting nonsense like this #in reality none of this really matters too much at all #however as someone who used to be way into this shit when i was a teenager i wonder what kinda purpose it serves? other than the obvious #we're reaching a state online where fiction is restricted more and more to these headcanon-y fandom-like levels of nuance #which is in part due to how many people are just teenagers and dont tend to worry too much about metanarrative discussions #nor is that everyone's cup of tea in the first place #but over the past 5 or so years it feels like more and more people default to this method when it comes to any kind of storytelling #regardless of the initial values of the original media they're discussing. it all gets relegated to this fandom-o-vision #this isn't even tumblr-centric. it's very prevalent on here yes. but every other social media seems to be following in kind #perhaps not with the same exact methods. but the similar lack of nuance feels like its there too #i just worry sometimes. maybe it isnt that important. but. oh well #im gonna go make myself a delicious milkshake

[theswirlersisterscircus]

just looked at the d20 ao3 tag for the first time since fhsy was coming out and i was curious so i sorted by kudos and. why is the first page of fics almost entirely riz/fabian. guys. huh.

#nick knacks #not gonna maintag out of respect but huh?????? guys please #lets all sit together and have a chat about what we think about aromantic people #because. yeah there's nuance when it comes to the discussion of aro ppl being in relationships #this is a fictional character who in the text does not want a relationship and has been comfimed aroace #why are we still seriously shipping them. guys. guys come back lets talk about how to respect an aro character #and no hate to those people im just. i would love to know how you feel about other confirmed aromantic characters #or why you guys specifically care more about two men being in a relationship over the canon aromantic-ness of one of those men #anyways. who said that. #vent #<- i guess mostly just so ppl who have that blocked dont have to see this lmao

[thevikingwoman]

no, sorry, I've actually never disliked a character because of their fans

#I just don't interact with them #and continue to enjoy the character #and in addition #usually there's only a few deranged people anyway #and most fans are fairly normal #ymmv of course #but t while there are topics and character discussions where I avoid the main circle #most people on the periphery are normal #and I frankly find it a bit tiring that you now have to avoid liking a character #to not be grouped with “those people” #I do hope people around me make more nuanced judgements like that #anyway yes this concept actually do bug me tremendously #I'm not going to self-censor which fictional character I like

[musical-chick-13]

Who is the woman on your pfp? She looks very cute.

Ohhh, let me introduce you, my friend, to Cersei Lannister from Game of Thrones, the Character Of All Time, and my FAVORITE character in any piece of media ever.

This woman is the most fascinating fictional construct I have ever encountered, and, although she is...not a good person, her struggles are so painfully real (and even, many times, relatable) that she feels the most human to me out of an entire cast of richly human, well-rounded characters. She has an extreme tangle of a bunch of different psychological issues, all of which manifest in some pretty unpalatable ways.

She gets angry and jealous, she acts out, she has an unhealthy dependence on alcohol and is part of the most intensely codependent relationship known to fiction. She feels so trapped in her womanhood due to the horrible way the society she lives in that she resents other women and has a hell of a lot of internalized misogyny. She has an over-idealized view of her parents while also having been influenced in all of the worst ways by her father. She leans on violence and cynicism and increasingly-ill-advised personal isolation as a way to try and feel some semblance of control in a dangerous, misogynistic world. She exemplifies this intersection of "being a bad person," benefiting from material financial privilege, and being incredibly sympathetic and disenfranchised. And she fully owns up to the fact that she does horrible things!! She believes that what she does is justified to survive and to prevent other people from hurting her children, but doesn't try to kid herself into thinking she's a good person; and there are not enough words in the multiverse for how much I appreciate that. She also serves as a deconstruction of the "Evil Queen" archetype, because what would push someone to act like that? How do we measure those actions against a world hell-bent on cruelty? How do we reconcile the fact that there's still a person under there, one who is also suffering and who also deserves to be viewed with humanity, just like everyone else?

And probably most significantly (for me, anyway, lol) she's an excellent example of an antagonist who is mentally ill but not Evil™ Because Of It. Her mental illness and the maladaptive things she does to cope with it (mostly by turning...just about everything she does into a desperate attempt to avoid feeling any more pain--from her violent grabs at power, to her feral protection of her children, to her alienation of most of the people around her, to her automatic and self-sabotaging distrust of pretty much anyone and everyone) simply lend context to her worldview and allow us to see why she chooses to act the way that she does. The suffering she experiences due to her mental illness is intentionally meant to be sympathetic and to humanize her. We're meant to feel for her, and the few people she trusts and/or genuinely loves (mainly, her twin brother; her children; and, eventually, her right-hand-man) are the ones who don't make a habit of calling her "mad" or treating her like she's "crazy." She still gets to affect the overall story and other major characters in significant ways, which...doesn't always happen for female antagonists or characters who are meant to be read as mentally ill. And she doesn't die prettily after two or three episodes before never being mentioned again, either!! She's an extremely important character all the way through the show. And though mental illness deeply affects her in many aspects of her life, it's not The Reason™ she's violent or hostile or dangerous. It's simply a characterization choice that helps us understand her.

I love her more than life itself. She's everything to me.

#mel screams about fictional ladies again #I didn't even get into the whole prophecy thing and how much THAT fucked her up. or the details of her feelings about her mom. #truly there will never be enough space in the totality of all posts I ever make to do full justice in explaining all the nuances #and characteristics and motivations of this one fictional woman #multi t(ASK)ing #cersei meta #(<-for blog organization purposes) #(I wouldn't really call this ''meta'' but that's my general umbrella tag for me discussing [i.e. yelling about] this character)

[this-acuteneurosis]

I've always subscribed to the idea that "child stealing jedi" was more of a rumor planted by the Sith? Doubt there's much support for either idea in actual canon, but I think it would be neat to have Leia learn that they talk to the parents about how Raising Force Sensitive Kids is hard and then the parents decide if they should/shouldn't go with them?

It could lead to her realizing that even if she knows Palpatine's game, she's not immune to his* manipulation, which would be interesting.

*his being Sith in general, since it wouldn't have been started by Palps

(not that you'd have to! I'm just rereading and had Thoughts)

That's...not really an idea I have much interest in. I have very specific Thoughts about the behavior of the Order across 1,000 years and how they were perceived by the public (both generally and specifically in relation to taking on initiates).

I don't really talk about it much because, well, any mention seems to summon the exact sort of people I was afraid I would encounter when I started writing in a fandom as large as SW for the first time (very angry, very very vocal about it). Aside from my general disinclination to fight with strangers on the internet because that never goes well, I also know how little canon material I've consumed relatively speaking, and it's pretty clear to me from the lurking I've done more recently in SW fandom spaces that I...do not consume the media like most fans? Or at least, not the most vocal ones. So fighting seems doubly not worth it. We can just enjoy our own spaces.

Anyway, if any well intentioned Jedi ever sat Leia down and explained to her how reasonable the process was for taking in children and why it was so valuable, she would have two immediate thoughts, mostly emotionally driven.

How dare you dismiss my parents, they raised me Just. Fine. In full view of a Sith Emperor!! And Vader!!!! And

(Recalling what Shmi has told Leia of how Anakin was taken) If Qui-Gon Fucking "Ends Justify the Means" Jinn were alive right now I would kill him again...

No matter how many objective facts you threw at her, Leia would look at the situation that harmed Her Family and led (ultimately) to the destruction of Her Planet and be Very Unimpressed with anyone's arguments.

(Could she believe that Palpatine took rumors of Jedi stealing children and leveraged them to further isolate the Jedi, sure. But Leia of DLB didn't hear that rumor from the Empire. The person who suggested it to her was Luke, and whatever biased or faulty information he might have had, Leia knows governments well enough--even well intentioned ones--to be suspicious.)

#I know I've mostly only consumed the movies #And even then not all of those #So like I am Not An Authority on canon #but I'm also not very interested in fandom discussion on Good and Evil in SW #at least not the internet ones I've seen #they feel very reductive and not very nuanced #I've loved me some asshole characters in my time #but I try not to put them into a Good or Evil box #no one is really all one or the other #and I feel like that is doubly and triply true for organizations #fictional or otherwise #already regretting this post...

[badscienceman]

forever annoyed by the inability to have constructive conversations involving media criticism anymore. I feel bonkers because it's like everything immediately dissolves into reactionary, all-or-nothing arguments that leave me baffled and usually uncomfortable

#personal #thinking about the person who joined the book club I'm in then got mad at the queer and/or poc members #because we were reading a book by a poc author that involved queerphobia #and when this person reached the queerphobic part she just could not engage with it at all #which obviously it's fine #you don't have to read those things #but to accuse everyone reading of excusing queerphobia because we were trying to discuss the context of when and where the book was written #despite the fact we had for like weeks been having very nuanced discussions about this author and his work #honestly mostly calling him a misogynist and queerphobe lmao #despite the fact that a woman from the same area the author was from was there discussing her experiences etc #and then the other side of this is like #you're an sjw if you discuss the implications of how poc/disabled/etc characters are treated in fiction or whatever lmaooo #obviously people don't generally say “sjw” but it's basically what they mean let's be honest #thinking about the person who got mad that I had a rule not to send certain content in a discord server #because obviously that meant I was engaging in (insert shipping discourse) #obviously it meant I disapproved and was being an sjw type #but really it was just that someone helping to mod had trauma surrounding this one specific thing #so when the mad person decided to show me who's boss by sending that content anyway they were literally doing nothing to me #but they were hurting someone else #all or nothing you're not allowed to have boundaries because if you have boundaries it's actually commentary on your stance or whatever #so annoying

[navree]

i’m sure someone’s already talked about this but i’m tipsy and rewatching the first episode of hotd and i don’t wanna say i liked it, cuz i didn’t like anything about that scene, but i did appreciate that aemma defies the tropes we see a lot of the time in media when women have difficult pregnancies and deliveries where it’s always “save my baby over me” that without fail happens every single time. but instead, aemma is very very clear on the fact that she’d really rather not be in the position she’s in right now, and when the men around her make the unilateral choice to perform a caesarean to save the baby at the expense of her life, she doesn’t do the Fictional Lady thing of lying back and saying she agrees, she’s fucking horrified and fights against it after having spent the majority of her screentime reaffirming her autonomy as a person, as more than a human incubator. and never submits to it. she doesn’t just accept the idea that her life has ceased to have value and that she should accept dying (in a brutal and horrible way), she very clearly wants to live and that choice is being actively taken away from her. 

#personal #house of the dragon #yeah i think this is wildly incoherent but i've had a couple kir royales #but the point is i do appreciate that we're getting something other than the constant 'it's fine if i die but The Baby Must Live' thing #that we CONSTANTLY see in any fictional pregnancy #like this isn't about real life when that choice actually presents itself that's a very nuanced topic #that i am not qualified to discuss as i've not been in any facet of that situation #but in fiction it is literally always just long suffering women smiling and saying that they will gladly die #for The Baby To Live #and it's not a bad thing to see a woman who wants to put herself first and wants to be able to live and enjoy life #and is terrified and furious at the idea that she needs to die in order for The Baby To Live #and refuses to accept it as something that needs to be done and fights it as much as she can #i mean it's still a horrifying scene and until the season ends i'm going to avoid judgments on how much of the feelings i have about it #are intentionally put there by the writers and how much is just 'this is still a show made by a man and a network that' #'has already shown to have an almost perverse level of enjoyment for the brutalization of women when it comes to this specific franchise' #but this bit was........not good but at least smth i can nod my head at #anyway i hope rhaenyra finds out what viserys did and beats his ass

[polyamoryprincess]

I was gonna write a big ol rant but basically I’m tired of seeing discussions about the concerning decline in media literacy and reading comprehension being reduced to conversations about shipping and morality discourse, that is literally the smallest fraction of this problem

#I know it’s the most visceral because people have horrible fights about this stuff #But these are basically just bordering on being reading comprehension and media literacy issues #They’re more like discussions of fiction vs reality and morality discussions #And discussions of nuance #And like it’s all got a little over lap #But we don’t need to talk about fandom shit when we’re talking about what is a much huger issue of literacy and critical thinking #And probably just education because a lot of literacy and critical thinking comes from exposure to different experience and thinking #Not everything is about shipping discourse and people harassing you for liking a villain character

[miles-harding]

i’m going to start blocking people who insist that edgar electricdreams is a child. stop stripping A.I. characters of their romantic and sexual agency. computers are not humans. an A.I. having self-actualized personhood does not mean that every aspect of them is 1:1 comparable to a human being.

#you're going to have to accept nuance if you want to have satisfying discussions about A.I. genre fiction

[phlyaros]

im gonna be real anon I don't care about label shit ship discourse I care about if real people are getting hurt and ONE reblog from someone being jokingly aggressive on the subject isn't enough to convince me that people are getting hurt when there's more evidence to the contrary. you've put me in a shitty situation here and I don't want to engage with it. please just ask people what they actually think next time before you go throwing your assumptions at other people.

#i trust enough that most of my mutuals understand the nuance needed of media depiction of unsavory subjects. #if i'm wrong then I'm wrong. okay. thank you. #i hate the dichotomy i hate the lack of nuance in this discussion I want people to actually talk to each other #I want people to realize that you can respect people with different opinions than you if they aren't actually hurting anyone #I'm literally. someone who was alone with me a lot as a kid is in prison for CP/solicitation. I think if anyone can say that media- #depiction of fucked up shit that really happens is more nuanced than 'x is bad so it shouldnt exist' #you cant do that in real life. you cant make something not exist. just because something fictional contains it doesnt mean it condones it. #im so tired. im so tired. why wasnt this a dm. i dont really want to have this discussion publicly. #i can think things are gross but understand that there's nuance to depiction and just because I don't like it doesn't mean those people- #-don't deserve to have something that understands them. #not everyone is good at actually. being mature enough to handle that nuance. when they try. people can be wrong #and if people ARE weird I can just not engage with them. there's. I can decide for myself! #and now I'M stuck in my brain is insane and. as if! as if people always reblog things they 100% agree with! #im so tired. im so tired. im in pain and people are messaging me about a singular reblog from six months ago on someone else's blog. #i understand being cautious i really do but thats like insane behavior. why are you putting this on me. why didn't you just talk to me. #fucked up things happen and people deserve to be understood. okay. even if i don't like it. there is no right answer. there is no world- #where all pain can be avoided. saving private ryan made vet suicides skyrocket. did you know that #but it also understood those people. yknow. and there's more people living that it understood too. #there's just so much nuance that's thrown out when you cover everything you don't like with a blanket. okay #it's more complicated. it's more complicated. please. #in my mind it's far stranger to assume everyone is out there giggling and twiddling their fingers thinking about in/cest #than it is to just assume they don't until proven otherwise. #im so tired. just block me if you don't understand where I'm coming from. I don't care about ship disco/urse and i dont want to live- #constantly worried about what other people think about shit that has no right answer. #everyone is innocent until proven guilty and one reblog of a joking aggressive post isnt enough for me. sorry. #phlyaros' nonsense #euurgh. #welcome to the internet where we judge people based on one reblogged joke and nothing else even if it contradicts us #what a perfect encapsulation of what I don't like about dichotomy argument #tw suicide

[mister13eyond]

Ngl tho, the "why do you as an adult care about what minors say all the time" arguments feel so disingenuous to me

Like, spreading misinformation about sex and kinks gets a pass just because it's a minor who's spreading it? Or when an adult is being accused of heinous crimes over their fanfics, they should just suck it up because the ones accusing them just so happen to be minors? This is so tiring. I just can't look at those arguments in good faith

That's reasonable! I think there's a threshold of reasonable push back you can and SHOULD give when people in fandom are spreading misinformation or mass harassing fan creators, regardless of age. I think it's always within reason to stand up against that and to put your foot down and refuse to allow bullying and harassment to happen in your circle or to make it clear that kind of shit is harmful and often entirely constructed on misinformation and falsehoods.

I think I've also just seen so many accounts (on Twitter, mostly, because it's a hellsite) where it seems like they're just... spending every. Single. Day. Immersed in bad takes, QRT-ing some stupid opinion a teenager has, constantly talking about antis, constantly engaged in arguments with antis, and it hits a threshold where it's like.... are you doing this because you care about freedom of expression and exploring dark or troubling topics in safe spaces anymore? Or do you just like to argue? I care a LOT about these things and I think the current puritanical pushback against queer sexuality and kink is definitely harmful and actively hurts people, but oh my god, sometimes I see people who spend every single day hunting down bad anti takes and I have to wonder when the last time they had FUN in fandom was. Like... I think there's this idea that we're fighting the good fight by arguing against these things, and I ALSO want to make sure that we have spaces safe to do so and knowledge on how these are perfectly healthy and human ways to explore subjects we would never want to encounter in real life, but once it gets to "hunting down and QRT-ing some 15 year olds bad take" it honestly just spreads those ideas to a BIGGER audience by broadcasting them, even in the form of debunking, you know?

I guess it's just a matter of, like, balance? It's so so bad for ANYONE online to constantly immerse themselves in things that upset them. That's a real problem with puritanical circles- they're constantly constantly immersed in these things they say are triggering or upsetting, and therefore go on the attack and harm people over fiction- but the opposite can be true too. Immersing yourself in a constant flood of abusive language, baseless accusations, misinformation and harassment because you are "fighting it" is bad for you! You can't spend all your time doing that, or it becomes a kind of self-harm, you know?

I will definitely admit I'm biased by my own perspective, but I will say anecdotally- I spent a good chunk of my earlier time in fandom neck-deep in the "proship vs anti" trenches and I felt... pretty consistently miserable. I was only following people who were proship, and I thought seeing bad anti takes deconstructed and taken down would make it better and more cathartic to follow these arguments, but it got to the point where every single day I was exposed to the idea that someone out there likely thought absolutely horrible things about me based on what I read/write/draw. I felt super paranoid and really scared of even creating things at all, anticipating I'd get dog piled at any moment... Eventually I realized a small handful of accounts were the ones CONSTANTLY giving traffic and attention to these harmful posts & ideas (in the form of debunking them/arguing back against them) and I unfollowed or blocked as needed to focus instead on, like. Actually just DOING the things I thought would make fandom better? Sharing kink fics or art, sharing my headcanons that could be heavier or more troubling, etc. And I have to say it feels A HUNDRED times better. I know there's still a lot of misinformation and harm out there, but I feel like it's so much more productive to me to simply... provide a good example to the alternative? To go 'hey, I'm one of those people who make and read the kinds of things that everyone says are horrible and make me a bad person.' while also doing my best to consistently be kind, supportive, communicative and show that I am in fact a happy healthy adult with good relationships and good support and people who love me? So that I can simply, focus on the positive side of what fandom and all its weird kinks and weird fiction have given me! Because these things ARE very much something that's brought a lot of positive things into my life.

Sorry, I didn't mean to soap box! I think you have a really good point- a lot of the time those arguments ARE in bad faith and are thrown at anyone who exhibits even a moment of pushback against harassment or harm just because it's coming from a minor. I just think there's also a really toxic side of the "constantly in arguments on the internet" subset of people who really need to step back and try and give themselves some healthy breathing room and cut off the onslaught of 24/7 exposure to abuse and misinfo 😔

#discourse #fandom discourse #thank you tho!!! it's honestly really enjoyable talking about these things when it feels nuanced and constructive #i LIKE discussions i really like analyzing different perspectives especially when it comes to #the weird cocktail of ideals and experiences that make up online fandom #it's endlessly fascinating and i genuinely WANT to see it get better #i want people to have space and ability to engage with fiction in a controlled curated way #so i like hearing thoughts on it!

[loveofastarvingdog]

i think you guys do forget i haven’t actually seen the show

#timothy's txts. #timgate #yeah i’ve been entrenched in the fandom for five years and yes this has given me a lot of information on the show #but in the specifically destiel side of the fandom there is only so much posting about xyz and it’s a long show! #i only learned about emma this year #so while i do know of the racism in the show it’s only secondhand knowledge. and while i do know about certain plot lines. ITS ONLY #SECONDHAND KNOWLEDGE. i *can’t* offer more nuance and i can’t add to the discussion #i dislike a character because someone i followed first hated that character or i like a character because i read a good fic with them in it #like. i don’t want to be condemned or condescended to because i haven’t seen the show after five years #but i also want people acknowledging that maybe the reason i only post about dean and cas and sometimes sam and/or eileen… is because that’s #the only stuff i trust myself to know enough about?? #i literally barely got the courage to post a fic for spn the first time a few months ago because i was finally tired of being so scared if i #got the characteristics and details right #you know. in a fic. a FICTIONAL STORY BASED ON MORE FICTION #idk man. i just want to be clear that i’m not gonna weigh in on characters i don’t know or plots i’ve never even heard about #because that’s a great way to stick my foot in my mouth #idk can’t you just respect that i do have my own opinions and this means liking certain characters and NOT liking certain characters???????? #tw caps #idk. just tired and there’s build up #i don’t even know what i’m trying to say #i’m probably mostly upset because i feel like i’m constantly missing things or having them go over my head #and it makes me feel stupid for not understanding and then having people be. whatever. i just feel stupid and it makes me pissy #something *i* can work on #but also if you guys can remember i haven’t seen the show. have some patience with me about ‘not knowing the time sam ate a fifty pound #watermelon in order to trick a vampire into letting a seventy year old woman with green hair go free’ or whatever #as i said i have no idea what i’m trying to say. i’m just very tired and stressed right now and. idk. IDK!!!