#jonerys meta

[hamliet]

Hi! I just want to say I love your alchemy meta posts related to asoiaf! So many things clicked after reading them. Wanted to ask, you mentioned that Dany/Jon have an active/passive motif in their respective arcs, can you elaborate on that? Does it refer to their future arc in TWOW? (Dany going all out on slavery/conquest, Jon adopting a more apathetic attitude to the impeding doom of the Long Night...)

Hi!! So, you're here to nag me about the meta I said I would write and never did despite outlining it, yes, fair enough. (I'm kidding with you! Thanks actually for this kick in the pants.)

It's actually a motif for both Jon and Dany's arcs throughout the entire story. So let's start by redefining again what the point of passive/active is. In alchemy, the main goal is the "union of opposites," usually embodied in two characters in literature. The classic opposites tend to have the following motifs/symbols associated with them:

Male: Sun, sulphur, fire and air, hot and dry, red, gold, heart, active.

Female: Moon, mercury (or quicksilver), earth and water, cool and moist, white, silver, mind, passive.

ASOIAF switches the genders, which is very interesting. Jon is marked as white, water (snow), has qualities of mercury (mercury can shift states very easily; Jon goes undercover), is cunning, is of course associated with the cold north. Dany...

Well, Dany actually starts A Game of Thrones as passive (not wanting to marry Drogo and begging Viserys not to make her), but by the end of the first book she is fully active. This actually fits her other "alchemical" motifs because she starts off as white, the "moon of [Drogo's] life,", silver, etc. but by the end of the first book is reborn out of fire, and is therefore marked as sun, sulfur, gold, fire and air (flying on fire-breathing dragons), hot and dry (the territory of Essos), etc.

And of course, Dany is active, while Jon is passive. Let's go through the books, shall we? The active/passive motif exists in relationships as well as their internal motivations/personal goals.

Let's compare their (romantic/sexual) relationships first. Jon is reluctant to get involved with Ygritte and only does when there is little choice; he is attracted to her, so I wouldn't say it's nonconsensual, but there's also certainly an element of "do it or die." Dany also had little choice with Drogo, but by the middle of AGOT she's the one initiating public sex with him without any shame.

Jon's other quasi-romantic relationship so far is with Val, which thus far is (and likely will forever remain) unconsummated, with Jon fully committing to never violating his vows again. He also refuses to marry Val even though doing so would be politically expedient for Stannis. In contrast, Daenerys initiates with Daario, and she is the one who decides to marry Hizdahr even though she doesn't want to, for reasons of political expedience. She's actively making these choices.

It's even present in how they treat subordinates in regards to sex. Dany has sex with Irri and feels guilty for it, because even if Irri is happy to do so, she's still Dany's servant, and Dany knows there's an uncomfortable power dynamic there and expressly feels guilt over it. Jon is instead defined by what he doesn't do: his brothers of the Night's Watch spread rumors about him and Satin, but the reality is that nothing is going on and there probably isn't any attraction there either. Dany takes action; Jon does nothing and thinks that it'll all blow over and people will come to accept Satin, when that is very naive. (I'm not saying Jon is doing anything wrong; he's not. It's just an interesting parallel I noticed.)

Then let's talk their purposes and internal motivations. Jon defines himself as illegitimate, as Ned Stark's bastard. Daenerys defines herself as the rightful heir to the Targaryen dynasty. How does this translate into active vs passive?

Daenerys is active in regards to protecting slaves and freeing them. She just doesn't always do it wisely. But she intervenes and stops several assaults and frees people, crowning herself queen in Meereen to stay queen.

Jon, on the other hand, is a lot more passive. He refuses to help Gilly when she asks for help at the visit to Craster's because it's just not done and would violate his vows. Jon is forced by Qhorin Halfhand to go undercover with the Wildings; literally, he's pushed into it. Even when he is elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he did not campaign for himself nor seek it out. It's passivity, and a sharp contrast to Daenerys's deliberate seeking of power.

However, what they both do with power is very similar. Daenerys wants to free people and save them. Jon, too, wants to save the Wildlings. They can't help but empathize with people mistreated around them. Daenerys definitely sees herself in slaves (sold to Drogo), in sexual assault victims (again, Drogo), and in people forcibly taken to strange lands (being raised in Essos, always on the run). Jon sees himself in the Wildlings, always defined as an "other" despite being very human (Wildlings and bastards are treated differently for no legitimate reason). Both struggle with duty vs passion, with Dany choosing duty (Hizdahr) over passion (Daario), and Jon of course as well (choosing the Night's Watch over Ygritte and over Val).

As for the future, well. Every character tends to become "the monster you think I am," to quote Tyrion. What is the monster everyone thinks Daenerys is? What is the monster everyone thinks Jon is?

The Mad King's Daughter.

Bastards are craven.

Both quotes occur multiple times in every single book. Both Jon and Dany try to define themselves as different from this. Jon refuses to be craven. Dany is in denial about who her father was, but there's also a level wherein she worries about her own sanity, so she suspects something.

Both Jon and Dany also make an opposite decision in A Dance With Dragons. Jon finally chooses to be active and march south; the problem is that this completely destroys duty and is foolish. Dany chooses to be passive and robes herself in white and pearls again in her marriage to Hizdahr. It just... doesn't work out for either of them.

Both have tried so hard, and gotten nothing. They're going to sink into their flaws, their tendencies towards activity and passivity, and also become the monsters people think they are. HOWEVER. Their arcs are not going to end with them as monsters. They need to see what they are capable of becoming to truly face their demons and overcome them.

Daenerys is going to go on the warpath in The Winds of Winter. I think that's very clear from her final chapter in A Dance With Dragons. She tried to temper herself. She chained her dragons. She married a Meereenese man. She let the fighting pits reopen. It hasn't brought the peace she's been seeking. I think she'll use fire and blood to subdue her enemies and take Westeros.

Jon, on the other hand, has just been killed. Melisandre is clearly going to resurrect him. He wanted to march south and ditch duty before he died, and I don't doubt he'll ditch duty. Why hang around the Night's Watch when they just killed you? He's probably going to sink into apathy, especially once he finds out that Arya is not the girl in need of rescue. His family is nowhere around him. He was just killed by his new "brothers." Why bother? Why keep caring? Why keep trying? I definitely see him ditching the Watch but not coming to Stannis's aid either.

Also, both will get a reveal about their parents. Dany will learn that the Mad King was truly evil when King's Landing blows up in her face in a green blur of her dad's wildfyre. Jon will learn he's actually not Ned Stark's bastard... not even his son, in fact. Dany's reveal will be a result of her action, Jon's will almost certainly be a reveal from someone else to him, not his own searching. Dany will be horrified because of what her father wanted to do and what she committed (even if she didn't mean to go so far), while Jon will be horrified by what was omitted by the man he thought was his father.

But the answers to their problems can be found through each other. Jon will find his family again--his siblings Arya, Bran, maybe Rickon, and Sansa--and meet Sam again, too. He'll find love with Daenerys, someone who has messed up atrociously and still wants to do good. And he'll find out that being a Targaryen is not a taint through her; even when you'e messed up, you can still be a hero. Daenerys will be wondering why on earth she even has her dragons and how she can possibly rule after leaving the city in ashes, and along come the Others. She's the only one who can defeat them. She'll just have killed f!Aegon (likely unintentionally) and knew he was a fraud, but here's an actual family member. She's not the last Targaryen; instead of seeing that as a threat, I think she'll see it as a comfort eventually. Dany will help Jon remember his duty again, and Jon will help Dany love and be loved again, and together they'll save the world.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf meta #jonerys meta #jonerys #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #alchemy #asoiaf theory

[daenerystargaryen06]

"How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly..." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb." -A Storm of Swords -Jon XII

Daenerys wanting Daario to carry her off at sword point, and Jon thinking of stealing Val for her love. Two parallels of one girl wanting to be stolen, and one boy wanting to steal someone. Both for love.

"None of them had ever seen a direwolf before, he realized, and Ghost was twice as large as the common wolves that prowled their southron greenwoods. As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there." -A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

"Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

Jon is sorry he can't steal away Val, and Daenerys reflects on the fact that even if Daario did attempt to carry her off at sword point, he'd be cut down.

Both Jon and Daenerys have a sense of romanticism in their POV's. Both are hopeless romantics (perhaps Daenerys more so than Jon in a sense). Both want love, despite denying it deep down. Jon because he's a man of the Night's Watch and a bastard. Daenerys because she is a Queen over her people and accepts duty over giving in to "girlish" thoughts.

Both had found love within confinement. Jon having fallen for Ygritte while pretending to be on the Freefolk's side. Daenerys having found a twisted love in Drogo after being sold to him as a bridal slave. Both were coerced into sexual relations with Ygritte and Drogo. Both had to watch Ygritte and Drogo die (and Dany killed Drogo out of mercy).

"He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander's Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask [...] "Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying. -A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

"And when the bleak dawn broke over an empty horizon, Dany knew that he was truly lost to her. “When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” she said sadly. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When my womb quickens again, and I bear a living child. Then you will return, my sun-and-stars, and not before.” Never, the darkness cried, never never never. Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars. If I look back I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream. She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Both Jon and Daenerys have also found interest again after the deaths of Ygritte and Drogo. Jon wants Val, and Daenerys sleeps with Daario and may perhaps love him, but doubts over her relations with Daario. Both focus on their duties over giving in to what they really want. Daenerys even marries again for peace over giving in to what she really wants.

Both Jon and Daenerys think of having children, but push away the ideal. Jon due to being a member of the Night's Watch and a bastard. Daenerys due to thinking she is barren/cursed by Mirri Maz Duur and can never again have a child born from her.

Jon reflects that if he ever had a son, he'd name him Robb after his brother. Daenerys when pregnant with Drogo's child names her son Rhaego after her brother.

Jon is the secret son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna is associated with blue winter roses:

"He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood." -A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." -A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When Daenerys has visions in the House of the Undying, she sees the Wall:

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Jon is the 'blue flower' she sees growing from the wall of ice, filling the air with 'sweetness'. Jon is Lyanna's son. Both carry blue flower representation.

Jon also wants to know everything there is about his mother; who she was, if she loved him, what sort of person she was. Just alike to how Daenerys wants to learn and know everything she can about Rhaegar, as she also idolizes him in a sense. Both have thoughts about these people. Jon constantly thinks about his mother (Lyanna even if he does not know yet who she is); Daenerys often thinks of Rhaegar (despite never knowing him). Both think of these people despite them already being gone from the world, and both only wish they could have known who they truly were as people and can only guess how Lyanna and Rhaegar would've thought or acted.

Jon thinks of having dragons at the Wall:

"We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

When Jon dies, Daenerys hears a wolf howling in the distance:

"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Both have an association/thought relating to one another's animal sigil/companion. Jon thinks of wishing for three dragons (Daenerys' house sigil and her dragon children). Daenerys hears a wolf howling when Jon dies, making her feel sad and lonely (Jon's house sigil through Lyanna/Ned and his direwolf Ghost).

Both Jon and Daenerys dream of home. Daenerys with the house with the red door and the lemon tree. Jon with Winterfell.

Both are estranged from their families (Jon being at the Wall. Daenerys being in Essos and the last of her family having died).

Both have lost their brothers in different means. Both have had their mothers die from childbirth and never got to meet them. Both of their fathers (Rhaegar and Aerys) died during the Rebellion.

Both had arcs of leadership and rule, and struggle with their decisions and making hard choices. Jon winds up killed due to his choices at the end of ADWD, and Daenerys becomes stranded in the Dothraki Sea due to her choice of saving Drogon (and her people from Drogon) from the fighting pit and escaping on dragonback.

While Daenerys thinks of taking the IT as a duty due to being the last of her family and Viserys' last living heir, Jon admits to wanting to become Lord of Winterfell but turning the opportunity away.

#daenerys defence squad #daenerys stormborn #daenerys targaryen #daenerys targeryan #daenerys appreciation #mother of dragons #pro daenerys targaryen #breaker of chains #khaleesi #asoiaf jon #jon snow #asoiaf daenerys #a song of ice and fire #team daenerys #meta #long reads #long post #parallels #jonerys #jon x daenerys #snowstorm #drogon #ghost #ygritte mention #drogo mention

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

Something has been bugging me lately; why is it that so much of the ASOIAF fandom hates romance? Like, this is a problem I've noticed and it's honestly kind of weird. To be sure, George's view on what is romantic is, uh, dubious at best, but to outright be so against it the way I've seen some people be against it is quite bizarre, to say the least.

Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course there's no romance there! Rhaegar clearly was just using Lyanna as a baby factory to produce a super prophecy child because that's all there is to his character!

Jon and Daenerys? They won't be getting together like that dumb show! And if they are, it will be purely a political marriage! No lovey dovey stuff there!. After all Dany likes "bad boys" (which somehow translates to "evil men") so why would she like a strong, assertive man like Jon? And why would Jon like her? Not like he likes strong fiery tempered women!

Those are the two biggest examples but there is more. Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen are more ambiguous since they are historical characters, but a lot of people are convinced it was 100% unrequited love.

I've even seen fans complain about the line from Barristan where he thinks about how Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry over the affections of Shiera Seastar caused the Blackfyre Rebellions. Like sure it wasn't the only reason, but to think that jealousy and romance didn't have an effect on those rebellions is a bit weird.

Yes, I am aware these are some problematic pairings, not least of which because most of these are pretty incestuous. However, the complaints about these romances do not stem from a moral quandary. In the case of R+L, you see people calling Rhaegar a groomer and pedophile (see my post on him on my full thoughts there), but the majority of it is simply "well it's stupid because they told no one and caused a whole war, the selfish brats" (bonus points if someone specifically targets Lyanna).

Okay, setting aside the fact that, like with the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion was caused by far more factors than their elopement, why does making it an abduction Rhaegar did simply for a magic messiah baby make it a better story than the fact these two were in love and desperate to escape situations they felt trapped in, leading to shortsighted decisions that had an unexpected affect on many people?

With Jon and Dany, the backlash is "but that's so cliche! George wouldn't do something as cliche as two of the biggest protagonists falling in love." As if George doesn't constantly engage with cliche storybeats as often or even more than he subverts them. Even when the evidence for the two getting together is literally so overwhelming that you'd need to be willfully ignorant to ignore the foreshadowing (plus the fact George literally said that their union is "the point of the series").

And again, I must ask; why is Jon and Dany marrying to secure a political alliance without any real love between them a better story than an epic, doomed romance between two people who have gone through such similar struggles and have such similar personalities? What does R+L=J even exist for if they are just a couple of convenience using each other?

I'm not saying you have to love and ship all these people together. Because we sometimes forget our little fandom bubble, most people are not okay with even fictional incest ships. That's okay. Sometimes it's not even incest ships, but again, that's okay! We are all different and have our preferences! Some might not even care much for romance.

But the way a lot of this is criticized doesn't read like that. It's always focusing on the negative aspects. Especially with Dany's love interests. I'm not a fan of Daario and Dany, personally, but it is a bit uncomfortable how she is targeted so heavily for thinking and getting horny about him. Like... let a girl be horny and infatuated? Lol, I don't know!

With Rhaegar and Lyanna, Prince Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, the "problem" is that their disregard for political betrothals and following their hearts makes them stupid monsters who are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. That is absolutely not the way we should take these romances.

These doomed, tragic affairs aren't about how people are selfish. It's about the power of love. The way love makes people act rashly. The way love consumes someones thoughts and feelings. Love is powerful, it is transformative, transcending. That is the point. Even in spite of the death and chaos occurring around it, the love these people have for each other is something that cannot be broken.

I feel like the fandom has taken the wrong approach to this series tone and themes. I'm not George's biggest personal fan, to be quite honest, but he is a self described romantic. Turning Rhaegar from a lovestruck prince to a selfish crazed maniac is not romantic. Turning romance or potential romance into cold political maneuvers is not romantic.

The point of all this is that, yes, the world is dark. It's scary, it's cruel, unforgiving, and cold. But in that darkness, there are pockets of light that shine and make you feel safe, and warm, and happy. It makes you forget all the troubles around you. That light, that warmth, that love, is worth fighting for, even if it's all that is left, even if it doesn't last.

I am of course, slightly biased in my assessment, lmao. You could say that me, being a bisexual polyamorous transfemme, is maybe a bit of a big fan of romance and love! Yet, it still saddens me that people try to keep romances from just being romances, and try to make the story and world more bleak as a result. We already have Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, Euron, Randyll Tarly. We have people who use love against others for their own gain or outright reject it violently. We don't need more of that.

#asoiaf meta #asoiaf #jonerys #rhaegar x lyanna #asoiaf discourse #watch out i might be poking more at the fandom in later posts #i just have a lot of thoughts and need to put them down somewhere otherwise they drive me crazy

[evax3]

Heya! I wanted to ask you… do you have any hope that the books will come out and we’ll finally know the real ending? And what do you think Jon and Dany’s endings will be? I keep on being optimistic we will get the real ending. And all I need for it to be perfect is Dany and Arya and Jon (my three favorites) surviving and being able to find peace and happiness after the hells they all suffered. As much as I want Dany and Jon to be King and Queen, I’ll settle for them living. But what do you think?

Hello my friend, thank you for the ask!! :)

regarding the books, I'm sure we’ll get to know the ending some day, one way or another. Whether they'll ever be published, I have little hope, but never say never. At least I assume that after his death there will be a "GRRM – Unpublished Works" collection or something similar in which we can read chapters from Winds and Dream of Spring as well as many other short stories about our faves. 

As for Dany and Jon’s ending, I highly recommend @hamliet 's meta’s. I love reading all of them but especially the analysis of Dany as a romantic heroine. It tells us so much about what we should expect for her endgame and why (it all makes so much sense!!). 

I assume Dany will set King’s Landing on fire. Not intentionally, but because her father hid the Wildfire under the city and Daenerys will accidentally blow it up with her dragons fighting against f!Aegon. I don't see her killing innocent people as some collateral damage, but I see her fighting her enemies with fire and blood (which imo makes all the difference).

The incident in KL will throw her into a crisis and I think only with Jon's help she’ll get out of it and pick herself up to fight with him against the real enemy aka the Others (I’m sure their decision to form an alliance is one of the last scenes of TWOW and in ADOS they’re already a couple romantically involved with each other). 

So I guess Winds will be about Dany conquering Westeros while Jon is a little lost, has to deal with the aftermath of his mutiny and then later his parental reveal, while A Dream of Spring will be more about their relationship and the Battle for the Dawn. I think Dany will be Azor Ahai and save Westeros with Jon by her side, but no one will thank them for that because of what happened before in KL (and also the general prejudice against their family). And that this is one of the essential elements that make the ending so bittersweet (as George has indicated). 

She and Jon will be the true heroes, the bastard and the exile, but no one is going to see it or give them credit for that.

GRRM describes himself as a romantic writer and romantic literature is shaped by the fact that it focuses more on the inner conflict than the external conflict. So I assume that all 3 (Arya, Dany and Jon - who are also my favorites) are mainly dealing with their identity crises in the following books. What is their purpose in this world? How do people's expectations fit with their own desires and ambitions? By the end of the story, these questions should be answered.

I think Arya is pretty safe, when it comes to staying alive. I'm not quite so sure about Jonerys/Snowstorm. As much as I want it, because of course I wish for a HEA for my favorite ship, I actually don't see the two of them ruling together. I think they'll fall in love and Dany will get pregnant (because them having a family with each other has been hinted at way too much and unlike D&D, George isn't just doing that only as "clickbait"). But my fear is that only one of them will be able to see their child grow up… 

And I'm not even sure what I actually want for their endgame if anything were possible? Probably to pack up their baby, Ghost and the dragons and then emigrate, lol. Maybe to Lys or somewhere warm? But they both have too much of a hero complex to ever pull that off ❤️

#asoiaf speculation #twow speculation #jonerys #snowstorm #valyrianscrolls #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #jon x dany #george rr martin #asoiaf meta #asks and answers

[docpiplup]

I'm starting to do a re-read of Jon and Dany's POV chapters, and it's very interesting that just starting their chapters of AGOT, Jon I and Daenerys I, some parallels can be noticed between them

It's the first POV chapters for both characters, so the ones in which we get to know them (although Jon has appeared previously on Bran I, we get a different perspective, Bran perspective in Jon is like the older cool and calm brother, but now we get to know Jon's inner thoughts) and the main part of Jon I and Daenerys I are set on a feast.

Both are observant young teens that attend to a feast, for example we note that Dany and Jon make descriptions of many of the attendants at the feast and see some details like desdain and anger of Cersei during the feast, and even Benjen pleases or Dany noticing that Illyrio's sweet words are just mere and false words to please Viserys, which Viserys believes without reasoning and wholeheartedly.

Jon

.....

Dany

.....

Feasts in which both Dany and Jon will start their journey, one that both they'll have to start despite they don't want to, Jon joining the NW because he doesn't fit in Winterfell because he's a bastard and Dany because she has to marry Drogo due to Viserys' interests to conquer Westeros.

Also this idea fits with the following quotes, Jon and Dany thinking they would give anything to be in other simpler situation:

Jon

Dany

#jon snow #daenerys targaryen #canonjon #canondany #snowstorm #jonerys #asoiaf reread #agot #a game of thrones #asoiaf meta

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

an opinion that drives fans mad sometimes is the thought that dæny might have an alliance with euron if he pulls of his charm on her and the fact is the show had him randomly obsessed with cersei another queen when in the books he's obsessed with dæny and she has pretty weird taste in men, i don't believe she had a healthy relationship with drogo but she seems to like strong edgelord ish men so euron being charming towards her and tricking her isnt impossible

I'm pretty sure those fans are angry because they want her to hook up with Jon and have his magical inbreed babies as soon as possible, and feel threatened by other ships, even if they're obviously doomed by the narrative.

But from a political standpoint, it makes sense she'll form an alliance with Euron. It was repeated multiple times in her chapters that she needs the support of some of the local lords to take back the throne, because otherwise she will be seen as an invader and everyone will band together against her. The problem is that a true ally wants something out of an alliance, nobody is going to die for a stranger for nothing. And unfortunately for Daenerys, the local lords of Westeros either want independence from the Iron Throne (Iron Islands, North, Riverlands, probably the Vale), are already allied with Aegon VI (the Martells, the Tyrells after Cersei blows up the Sept) or are afraid of any Targaryen taking the throne for fear of retribution after Robert's Rebellion (the former STAB + L alliance). If she joined any of them, she would have to give something up, be the northern kingdoms, her claim to the Iron Throne or her desire to avenge her family.

But Euron isn't interested in political matters, he just wants to sacrifice her in a magic ritual to attain godhood or something insane like that, so he will accept whatever terms she wants just to get close to her. As you said, her type seems to be strong confident warriors with no fashion sense, and she already had nightmares about fucking a man with blue lips, so my prediction is that Euron will offer her the Greyjoy fleet in exchange of a marriage alliance. Marrying a man shes attracted to for a political alliance will seem like a small price to pay, a solution to the conflict between duty and desire she experienced with Daario and Hizdahr, but it will cost her too much in the end.

#asoiaf #my meta #valyrianscrolls #anti daenerys targaryen #anti euron greyjoy #anti jonerys #storm x storm

[dragonsfromthemoon]

Both Jon and Dany have a father figure/mentor nicknamed “Old Bear”: Jeor Mormont e Willem Darry, respectively. 🥺

#jon snow #daenerys targaryen #jonerys #snowstorm #this gives such a cool idea for a meta #all the characters that indirectly connect jon and dant

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

8x01 - Gendrya vs Jonerys

In the dragonriding scene we get:

Jon: "What's wrong with them?"

Dany: "They don't like the North."

And we see Jon's reaction.

Dany doesn't like the North. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's stated definitively here.

Jon: "It's pretty cold up here for a Southern girl."

Dany: "Then keep your queen warm."

This is after Dany has said that they could stay up there for 1000 years and no one would find them with Jon replying that they would be pretty old. Not only is Jon suggesting that she shouldn't stay, but he doesn't respond to her romantic suggestion with an answer that someone in love would. It wasn't even played off as teasing by Kit's performance or Emilia's (her reaction to his line). Then when he says that it's too cold, Dany asserts the imbalanced power dynamic between them once more while also getting what she wants.

When you compare that scene (which was probably the most romantic scene Jonerys has in the show), the difference is pretty blatant:

Gendry: "Not a bad place to grow up if it wasn't so cold."

Arya: "Stay close to that forge then."

A huge contrast considering what we saw with Jonerys in the previous scene (yes, they literally had the dragons/waterfall scene right before this one - another tool GoT uses from the tool box very well is editing, in addition to timing and dialogue). Gendry is actually complimenting Arya's home while also mentioning the cold temperatures. (to link it to the previous Jonerys scene) Arya's response, while dismissive on the surface, posing as a very take-it-or-leave-it attitude, literally tells him to stay, while also showing her not pushing Gendry the way Dany did Jon to keep warm (which also makes sense given their relationship isn't there yet).

Gendry: "Oh, is that a command, Lady Stark?"

Arya: "Don't call me that."

Gendry: "As you wish, m'lady."

Here is the teasing that was absent in the waterfall scene. It's a callback to their connection and this joke between them but we also see it in their performances, with Gendry smiling and Arya eventually smiling as well. Not to mention that Arya doesn't enforce the imbalanced power dynamics between them like Dany did with Jon; she doesn't want to be called a Lady even though technically she is a Lady Stark.

The show purposely contrasted these two relationships to showcase the difference: healthy (Gendrya) vs unhealthy (Jonerys), and what blossoming love actually looks like. Even though Arya didn't accept Gendry's proposal in the end and went off sailing, it doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for him (and I think this is partly why they included the love scene for them in the next episode).

Huge. Contrast.

#gendrya vs jonerys #anti jonerys #antijonerysposts #anti jonerys meta #got #gotposts #game of thrones #metaposts #got 8x01 #got rewatch

[winterprince601]

jonerys is, in concept, very funny. two targaryens left in the entire world x they could have literally anyone else x but no this aunt MUST marry her nephew x targaryens try not to commit incest challenge - EASY MODE- failed x

#it's kind of my guilty pleasure ship #because i am aware of this ridiculousness #but i just sort of think they deserve each other #/pos #obvs that can and probably should be platonically #but we'll see!! it's never stopped grrm before!! #asoiaf #jonerys #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #asoiaf meta #house targaryen #targaryen #cw incest #but like canon-typical #canon typical incest #this isn't anti jonerys btw #like i get it i really do

[hamliet]

Is sansa connected to the winter rose?

In a word: no.

The winter rose is connected to Lyanna, Jon, and Daenerys.

The winter rose itself is a flower, a beautiful blue rose. They exist at Winterfell, and the legend associated with them is that Bael the Bard, a successful singer, entered Winterfell under an assumed name. As a reward, Brandon Stark offered him whatever he wanted, and Bael asked for the most beautiful flower. Brandon gave him the rose, but the next morning, Brandon's only daughter was missing from her bed, and the rose lay on the covers.

The crown of winter roses is what Rhaegar gave to Lyanna. Lyanna even dies holding roses, although their petals had turned black from death. The point is clearly that Rhaegar wooed Lyanna and she ran off with him, leaving her family. She also then died, and the beautiful blue roses had all decayed. I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love to some degree, but there's still a lot of political machinations at play and love, true or otherwise, didn't save them like in a fairy tale. In the end they were left with blood and death, not living roses. It's a symbol of loss as much as it is of love--loss of a daughter, loss of Lyanna, loss of a mother.

The context in which the Bael the Bard legend is told is also relevant: Ygritte tells it to Jon, who is Lyanna's son. I mean, the clues could not be clearer:

Ygritte: And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose? Jon: I never knew my mother. Or any such song.

Not only that, but Jon is facing a similar choice to Lyanna, of breaking his vows and staying with Ygritte. In the end, he chooses to return to the Watch.

But, it's not over. No, the legend continues in Brandon Stark relentlessly searching for them, but they never find anyone. He has no heirs, but then the girl returns with an infant, and as it turns out she and Bael never left the crypts of Winterfell--a place of death.

The symbolism is again pretty obvious: Jon as an infant, but also the idea that love stays with you even when you've lost the people whom you love. It's bittersweet. They're with you all along. And, from death comes life. The Stark bastard becomes a Stark lord. Again, the Jon symbolism is obvious.

Bael then becomes a King Beyond the Wall and invades the North, and his own son fights and defeats him--because Bael could not bring himself to kill his son. But his mother still loved Bael and commits suicide. Lovely. But again, the symbolism and themes are obvious: choosing love over duty (as Bael does) and choosing duty over love (as the Stark daughter does) both lead to death, because "death, the high cost of living." Our job living is to walk that tightrope and find a balance we can live with.

Dany's visions in the House of the Undying also connect Jon to the winter rose: she smells it "sweetly" as it grows "from a chink of ice in the wall." It's clearly associated with romance, as well.

Sansa has no connection to the winter rose as far as I can tell. In fact a search tells me the only connection is that after Ygritte tells Jon this, the next chapter is the one where she first "flowers," which is exceedingly tenuous as a connection. The Stark daughter who is repeatedly connected to Lyanna is Arya, not Sansa, and the winter rose has never actually appeared in either of their stories the way it has in Jon's and Daenerys's.

#ask hamliet #asoiaf meta #asoiaf theory #jon snow #jonerys #daenerys targaryen #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf #bael the bard

[daenerystargaryen06]

" we have ample evidence from the books that there can/will be a Targ Restoration, but it won't end with the Targs on the throne"

could you tell me which ones?

The evidence for a Targ restoration is laid within small hints and foreshadowing within the books. It is subtle and not easily caught, but if you take a moment to go through the books with a careful eye and speculate over the reasons GRRM has written certain things in Dany and Jon's chapters, it can be led as a potential hint/speculative potential of Dany and Jon to be the ones to carry out the Targ legacy/restoration.

Let's begin with the beginning foundations of Dany and Jon being set up to meet:

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

"Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow." -A Storm of Swords - Daenerys II

"All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye." -A Clash of Kings - Jon I

Jon and Daenerys are meant to meet, and a relationship will spark between them, as hinted at within the books. GRRM has also stated to D&D (as said by them) that the main point of GoT/ASOIAF is Jon and Daenerys meeting. Two people who struggle with politics, leading, and coming to terms with their true identities. Daenerys just wants peace and a home, Jon just wants to know who his mother was and a home for himself as well.

Now where does Targ restoration come into play and is hinted at? We have a few select lines within the books that give us some subtle cues:

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb." -A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Both Jon and Daenerys think of having children, but both resign into accepting that they may never have children of their own. Daenerys due to believing she was cursed by Mirri Maz Duur, and Jon due to being a sworn brother of the Night's Watch along with thinking that he is a bastard.

There is also the fact that when Daenerys is out upon the Dothraki Sea, she has a miscarriage:

"When she woke, gasping, her thighs were slick with blood. . . For a moment she did not realize what it was. The world had just begun to lighten, and the tall grass rustled softly in the wind. No, please, let me sleep some more. I'm so tired. She tried to burrow back beneath the pile of grass she had torn up when she went to sleep. Some of the stalks felt wet. Had it rained again? She sat up, afraid that she had soiled herself as she slept. When she brought her fingers to her face, she could smell the blood on them. Am I dying? Then she saw the pale crescent moon, floating high above the grass, and it came to her that this was no more than her moon blood. If she had not been so sick and scared, that might have come as a relief. Instead she began to shiver violently. She was bleeding, but it was only woman's blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that. . . As she splashed her face, she saw fresh blood on her thighs. The ragged hem of her undertunic was stained with it. The sight of so much red frightened her. Moon blood, it's only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

When Daenerys has the miscarriage, she thinks it's her menstrual cycle. But the blood is too heavy, and occurs after she has eaten green berries and drank polluted water upon the Dothraki Sea- which could have resulted in her losing the pregnancy. This is a subtle hint that Daenerys can get pregnant, and likely will get pregnant again with Jon's child in the future, and will carry it to full term.

There are also hints within the books of Viserion exhibiting nesting like behavior, which can also result in bringing more dragon eggs into the world, that would eventually hatch and bring a new age of dragons:

"Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

"For a moment he saw only the blackened arches of the bricks above, scorched by dragonflame. A trickle of ash caught his eye, betraying movement. Something pale, half-hidden, stirring. He's made himself a cave, the prince realized. A burrow in the brick. The foundations of the Great Pyramid of Meereen were massive and thick to support the weight of the huge structure overhead; even the interior walls were three times thicker than any castle's curtain walls. But Viserion had dug himself a hole in them with flame and claw, a hole big enough to sleep in." -A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

Dragons are mentioned within the book to be genderless, truly, and they can switch their gender at will. Which means that any one of Daenerys' dragons could lay eggs and bring more dragons into the world, but Viserion might be the one to do so first.

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." -A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

As for Jon and Daenerys not winding up on the throne, that is mere speculation. But Jon and Daenerys both long for home, and even though their arcs are centered around ruling, leading, politics, etc. they necessarily don't want the burden of ruling as well. Both are thrust into their positions of power and are doing the best they can with being so young and having to deal with all of this going on. Which means that in the end they could very well turn away from ruling to lead their own lives of peace within a home they find for themselves with their future potential children.

"If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

"Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

"We will have it all back someday, sweet sister," he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. "The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King's Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back." Viserys lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"Of the ride back, Jon Snow remembered little. It seemed shorter than the journey south, perhaps because his mind was elsewhere. Pyp set the pace, galloping, walking, trotting, and then breaking into another gallop. Mole's Town came and went, the red lantern over the brothel long extinguished. They made good time. Dawn was still an hour off when Jon glimpsed the towers of Castle Black ahead of them, dark against the pale immensity of the Wall. It did not seem like home this time." -A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man's horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow?" -A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

There is also the fact that apparently GRRM told D&D that Bran would become King. Now, I don't exactly believe that myself as stated in another post made by me here. And there is also the fact that GRRM could change Bran's ending/role, or make him King of something else (such as King of the North). But if Bran DOES become King of the 7k as stated by D&D for GRRM's planned ending, Jon and Daenerys bringing a Targ restoration together within their own form of home away from ruling is another ending I can imagine for them. We have the groundwork and subtle cues/hints/foreshadowing for such a thing to happen. Of course, I do want Jon and Daenerys to wind up ruling together as equals over the 7k with a family of their own and their dragons, but in the end- I'll accept any ending just as long as my babies wind up together and happy. Thanks for the ask! :)

#daenerys defence squad #daenerys stormborn #daenerys targaryen #daenerys targeryan #daenerys appreciation #mother of dragons #pro daenerys targaryen #breaker of chains #khaleesi #team daenerys #jon snow #asoiaf jon #jonerys #jon x daenerys #snowstorm #house targaryen #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #speculation #meta #viserion #rambles #queen daenerys #daenerys defense squad #long post

[daenerysstormreborn]

It really grinds my gears when people try to insist that Jon never really loved Dany because he undeniably canonically loved her even after she torched King’s Landing. This isn’t me reading between the lines or theorizing. It’s in the script of episode 8 which is publicly available.

We all know season 8 was shit and hope the books do things dramatically differently. And I personally think that Emilia and Kitt had poor on-screen chemistry, so they struggled to convey love. But it is unquestionably canon that Jon and Dany loved each other to the end. Jon feels he has nothing left worth living for once she’s dead. He really truly did not want the throne. He was ready to die right along with her. He was going to let Drogon kill him. Honestly it could’ve been an incredibly tragic scene had it been better written and had Jon and Dany shared more screen time with better actor chemistry. Always a Jonerys truther here

#asoiaf #got #jonerys #got meta #game of thrones #in my heart Drogon flew her to Asshai where she was resurrected by a red priestess #and Jon will eventually say fuck Westeros and will go searching for the dragon lords of Asshai #and they will meet again and discover that the 3ER had taken control of her the entire time and dying had freed her from that control #and she’s been researching how to defeat him while in the shadowlands #but maybe they just say fuck Westeros together and go explore the shadowlands and Ulthos

[stormbcrn]

how do you need to be loved?

DEEPLY, LIKE THE VASTNESS OF THE SEA – you are a very passionate person. you feel everything so intensely, and that definitely includes love. you need someone who will match that passion, that intensity. you need someone who will care about you as much as you care about them, but you have a hard time finding that. you're usually the one who loves more, and it's sad sometimes, but it's okay. but you will find someone who loves you just as much as you love them.

tagged by @dracharenae 🖤 tagging: @wereveaux, @nanlanmo, @realmsdelite, @aeddard, @timewound, @ada1r, @graunblida, and anyone else who sees this!

#♕ * about / dash games. #*coughs at show jonerys* #i haven't written my show jonerys meta yet but it boils down to dany always having loved him more #so here we are! #top secret ship dynamic wishlist: dany being more into your muse than they are w her

[branwendaughterofllyr]

That nobodysuspectsbutterfly BNF claimed how Ashford Theory leads to Hound as the Sansa's final romantic interest lmao

What!????? That’s actually hilarious. How???? HOW???? I guess I shouldn’t be that surprised, since the Ashford theory is the only Jonsa theory that had widespread traction in the wider fandom, so it had to be debunked by the antis, but The Hound???? That’s a mighty big leap right there. Most people go for the “it’s an irrelevant coincidence” angle or “it’s going to be f!Aegon” but Ashford Theory leading to Hound is legit making me laugh.

#ahhhhhh #Sansans were the bane of my existence back in the day #found them way weirder than the jonerys for the most part #I have a horrible Sansan meta I broke down a couple months ago in dms #might dig that up #branwen answers

[evax3]

Is azor ahai and tptwp one and the same? And if Jon is nissa nissa that means Dany will have to kill/sacrifice him to save the world. I kinda feel like Jon would be living on borrowed time after his resurrection. Anyway we’ll never know since GRRM wouldn’t finish his books 🙃

Mel always uses the terms as if they were synonyms but I understand it that actually AA is a legendary hero (also called 'the last hero') who fought during the (first) long night and tptwp is the prophecy of the one who will do it again when the darkness returns aka the Others, his song is that of ice and fire, therefore tptwp is Azor Ahai reborn?

Regarding Jon and Dany and my AA/Nissa Nissa headcanon, I don't think Dany will kill Jon like AA did kill his wife. I think their similarities is more about the sacrifice for the greater good. So as much as I'd love a happy ending for jonerys, where they rule the 7K together and have 50 babies, I think if one of them has to die, it's Jon and he will sacrifice his life to save Daenerys and thus provides the last piece for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Which would be bittersweet like George had promised... 💔

But you're probably right and we will never find out!! 🤷‍♀️

#still i very much like to ponder about this!! #so thanks for the ask ❤️ #azor ahai #nissa nissa #jonerys #snowstorm #jon snow x daenerys targaryen #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #asks and answers

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Can we just talk about one of the most telling signs that had Jon not had the Great War to fight and had he not discovered Dany was family to him that he would have never accepted Dany as a ruler or even as a possible love interest?

Sam's father wasn't kind to him but we still see Sam have a slight reaction when he realizes Dany executed him. But it's when Dany mentions that she also executed Dickon, that we get a full reaction from Sam. He loved his brother and his brother was kinder to him than his father had been. Dickon was clearly Randyll's favorite while he saw Sam as a disappointment. And you could make the argument that Dickon was Sam's favorite out of the two men of his family.

After this, we see what Sam really thinks of Dany after learning this information, when he talks to Jon.

And then you have Jon:

Here he talks about Robb after finding out about his death, to Sam funnily enough. He loved his brother and Robb loved him.

The contrast is that Ned loved Jon as well and Jon loved him. It was Catelyn who couldn't stand him. Whereas Sam's mother loved him as did his sister.

But Jon and Sam both knew what it was to have conflicting feelings for their brothers (Dickon vs Robb I mean). So it makes sense that Jon is the person that Sam tells this information to and lets him see how upset he is. (he had only begun to get upset in Dany's presence when he asked her leave and bounced right out of there)

And we see Jon's reaction to the news. He knows very well who the last person was that executed a father and son: Aerys. The very same king that he mentioned to Dany when meeting her in 7x03 and Sansa mentioned to Jon in 7x02 in relation to their grandfather and uncle.

There is absolutely no way Jon would have seen Dany as a potential romantic partner, no matter how beautiful she may have been or how powerful, after learning this information.

Bonus:

Notice how Dany has absolutely zero empathy here when seeing how upset Sam was becoming. They showed Jorah's reactions for contrast while Dany was in her it-was-necessary mode with no sympathy or empathy whatsoever.

And we see Jon's reaction as the contrast:

No way that these two people (Dany and Jon) have anything in commonality other than their family line and all that it entails (meaning the dragons). They were two very different people with different intentions and motivations, two completely different rulers, and they didn't complement one another or fill in each other's gaps in a way that would have made them a powerful ruling team.

#anti jonerys #anti jonerys meta #antijonerysposts #got #game of thrones #gotposts #got 8x01 #got rewatch #metaposts