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killian-whump · 8 months

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what was the shipper drama at peoples con?

I assume it was SQ fans arguing amongst themselves about Jen and Lana's offscreen relationship - or lack thereof.

My understanding of the drama is that the con was long touted to be a "reunion" of the two actresses, with even Lana herself promoting it as such at one point (obviously, having been given a bum steer by the con organizers - another point against them right there). However, Jen kept being unavailable and the con kept being postponed in hopes that she would eventually be able to come... until Jen finally informed them that no, she had no intention of ever coming.

Hopeful SQ fans were disappointed, while others were angry any of this ever went on, since it's been years since the two women have appeared at a con at the same time (let alone together) and Jen was rumored to have said she had no intention of ever doing so again. So you have the "They're friends, we know it, this could've happened!" crowd fighting with the "They don't get along, this was obvious fan baiting, we should all be pissed!" crowd, on top of everyone being angry about the shitty way this con was organized and promoted - and how shittily they're all going to be refunded.

To me, this all seems like stupid people (the con organizers) being stupid (depending on Jen's appearance when she's notorious for canceling, and depending on an SQ reunion when it seems highly unlikely Jen would be up for one in the first place) - and fans getting caught in the stupidity crosshairs.

But the ship drama comes in when fans can't accept that their fave onscreen ship is created by two people who just ain't mates. I get that it sucks, I get that you're not going to get the photo ops and paired panels of your dreams... but it is what it is, and pretending it's otherwise doesn't achieve anything.

To a lesser degree, it reminds me of what C*lifer fans do with Colin and Jen. They inflate the friendship that is there into something it isn't - at best, imagining they're besties when they're not; and at worst, imagining there's some kind of romantic inclination there that is downright offensive to both actors involved and their spouses.

You gotta let your faves be the people they are, you know? And that includes accepting their offscreen relationships and friendships as they are - not as you wish they were.

#fandom drama #ridiculously stupid convention organizers

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juneviews · 1 year

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kind of related to the fetishization anon.

my unpopular opinion as a gay guy who's been watching and reading bl for a Long time is that one of the worst things the fetishizing part of the audience does is get the actors involved in their little game of who's fucking who. don't get me wrong, there's other uncomfortable stuff that makes my skin crawl but that is also relatively fair. It's inevitable that, if you like men, watching two men make out or have sex on screen is going to make you feel some type of way. I get it and it's normal and absolutely not my business how they react to it. but the actors are just doing their job.

It drives me insane when conversations about an actor's skill get twisted into like "yeah he was good in that role because his on screen boyfriend is actually his secret irl boyfriend and they're in love", it's both fetishizing and offensive to the actors themselves. Imagine putting effort into a performance and someone goes "he looks in love because he actually is in love and they're fucking tonight🥰".

The fact that is is such a widespread thing that some companies actively exploit it with fanservice makes me sick because they always fall for it. Then when an actor has a life outside the role he played it's all "bl ships we failed to protect" and "[actor] said he has a girlfriend I'm so sad". That hot and steamy bl show is not real life, let the fucking actors do their job.

I've literally made a full video on this exact topic so I'll just leave it here lol, but yes to everything you said! the bl industry is very special compared to practically all others bc it capitalizes on blurring the lines between acting & real life: the more people believe the ship they see on screen also exists irl, the more followers the actors will get, which will result in ads, events, lives, fanmeets, etc. in a way, these actors are selling their privacy & their right to a public love life in exchange for fame & money, and only very few have succeeded in transitioning away from that. and those who have all have entirely left bl so that's why the toxicity didn't follow them as much. ultimately, though, this inherent feeling that bl actors BELONG to their fans & also only to their one true pairing must be incredibly emotionally taxing. I also think these implications get worse if you're a closeted actor who's facing pressures to keep it under wraps yet still is being sexualized from their on-screen queer roles. that type of cognitive dissonance where people love gay you but they don't really LOVE the real gay you, just the puppet version that they can control, is so fucked up in my opinion. and I'm sure one day the bl industry will have to cut down on that shit bc there will be one incident where it WILL end badly.

xxx

#answers

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rainbowsky · 2 years

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XZ's team refused to cooperate with business CP. I wonder why 👀👀👀

An important reminder that this is just a 🍉 rumor, and totally unverified. All 🍉 are just 🍉. To be taken with a huge grain of 🧂. I often see fans quoting these rumors as though they’re true, and that’s how false information gets embedded into the fandom. Please always qualify rumors as rumors.

This one seems to be a continuation of the overall theme that he's supposedly refusing romantic roles, etc. There are reasons to believe this could be true, and some reasons to be very skeptical.

Fake, fan fiction, CPN.

A lot of people (myself included) were expecting heavy fan service with OOL when it came out, but despite a bit during Weibo night 2020, we really didn’t see any. Instead, we got a steady diet of high fructose turtle candy from GG throughout the airing and promo for the drama.

I suspect the plan had initially been to do heavy fan service for the drama, but the shifts in the entertainment industry climate and in how fan wars are handled (artists are held fully responsible for them now, and there are consequences for failing to manage fans) led to a shift in how the project was marketed. We don’t know what all happened behind the scenes or what the teams involved discussed and decided, but it seems to me inevitable that things would change given all the changes in the industry climate. There could also have been other reasons (or I could just be wrong).

BXG often talk about GG’s rumored refusal to take on romantic roles and his rumored refusal to do CP marketing for upcoming projects as though it has something to do with DD, and I think that’s highly unlikely to be true. I talked recently about why BXG’s investment in the GGDD jealousy trope is unhealthy, offensive and even dangerous. It’s just not something BXG should be pushing/claiming about GGDD (not saying that’s what you are doing, here, Anon, but you left it vague and I know a lot of fans are into that stuff so it bears repeating).

In my previous post about the romantic role rumor I talked about some of the reasons why GG might refuse romantic roles, and those reasons all apply to why he might also refuse CP fan service. None of them have anything to do with DD. I’ll just restate those reasons here:

GG is a serious actor who wants interesting projects of substance and depth, and to shed his ‘idol’, ‘traffic star’ image. Part of shedding that image needs to involve engaging in projects in ways that don't encourage that kind of image/fan reaction.

GG is constantly having to deal with fan wars and controversies, and it's no doubt a huge headache for him and his team. Nothing - NOTHING - generates more of that BS than CP/romance stuff.

GG likely doesn't want to deal with straight relationship rumors, and CP marketing tends to lead to shipping and relationship rumors. Such rumors are a threat to his career. Celebrities in that region are marketed on a fantasy of romantic availability, and if they are thought to be in a serious relationship that can kill a career. It's why even straight celebrities hide their relationships.

I think that this all goes doubly, triply with CP marketing, moreso than romantic roles. Someone who deals with the kind of BS GG is constantly having to deal with - all the fan wars and rumors and controversy and being dismissed as a traffic star - all that stuff is a bane on his career. If he doesn’t take on CP marketing, let me guarantee you those are infinitely more important reasons than anything BXG clownery can cook up.

Now, I think it’s likely that GG also has personal reasons for being uncomfortable with straight fan service, but we can’t pretend they’re his primary motivation. I don’t think they would be, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, just a bit of a reality check/reminder for BXG - GG didn’t really do CP marketing for The Untamed, either. Of course, I think that he had strong personal reasons to be uncomfortable with marketing involving his real relationship, but I still think it’s something worth remembering in this context. It’s not like this - if true - would be a shift in policy for him.

There are also reasons to be skeptical of these rumors. After all, they’re 🍉 rumors, and 🍉exist solely to gossip. A lot of the stuff they post is entirely made up, with the aim of getting clicks and clout, or even to intentionally stoke up fan wars or harm celebrities reputations. Nothing generates more interest and traffic than controversy, and few things are more controversial than CP/romance rumors (and rumors about GG in general).

So like I said, take it all with a grain of 🧂. In fact, I strongly believe that people who take 🍉 seriously should not be reading them at all.

Of course, that’s just my 2 cents on the topic. Others might disagree, but this is how I see it.

#fan service #rumor mill #actor gg #ask

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witchern · 1 year

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I respect the duffers because they arguably have the biggest show on the planet right now, on the other hand the showrunners of house of dragon and andor need to get a grip, them being like oh the writing is done we'll just be on set doing other duties. What load of fucking bullshit, as multiple writers and showrunners have said and even detailed in various threads, writing never stops, every single one of those "producing" duties involves writing so I don't know who these two think they're are fooling but that's scabing and I need the WGA to address this bc there need to be consequences for this mess or otherwise what are we doing here, these are two of the people who have some of the most leverage and could help the strike a lot and they also have a lot of privilege as in this won't actually hurt them financially or hurt their career, like it's not about you, how about you lend a helping hand to the generation of writers coming after for whom writing is becoming an untenable career instead of pulling the rug from under them.

hard agree!! the duffers did the right thing and i'm glad to see so many people (fans, especially) supportive of their stance.

meanwhile tony gilroy needs to put in an expedited shipping order for a fucking spine. like yeah yeah all the articles have said that he's staying strictly on the production side of the show and not participating in any writing on set, but per the leaked disney memo, he would still be asked to do things like cut for time or make line adjustments during filming......which would be scabbing, because the WGA explicitly forbids that per the strike rules.

ryan condal is apparently in good standing with the WGA, but seeing as he still hasn't said anything publicly about supporting the strike and yet he's already back on set, he's on thin fucking ice as far as i'm concerned.

at most i think they'd be fined. members who scab COULD be expelled from the WGA, but i don't know how big of an offense you'd need to commit to actually get kicked out.

fun thing worth noting is that the directors guild contract AND the screen actors guild contract expire on june 30th, and both organizations have publicly stood in solidarity with the WGA. hollywood's fucking around and they're about to find out.

#anonymous #asks

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moistvonlipwig · 3 months

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Sceo for the ship ask game?

Don’t Ship It

Why don’t you ship it?

Honestly, I'm just not the biggest fan of Theo. I don't dislike him at all, I think he's theoretically interesting as a character, I find his backstory super tragic and sympathetic (it still fucks me up that he let his sister die and he has to live with that for the rest of his life...that's sooo juicy), I like that he's a character who pretty clearly has low/no empathy but he's still allowed to find redemption and join the pack, he really should be one of my favorites by all rights...but in practice I just don't care about him very much. I'm not entirely sure why he's never clicked for me the way he should on paper -- I don't think Cody Christian is a bad actor or anything. I think maybe if S5 were better I'd like him more? Lol.

I also think there's part of me that's like...okay, I fully buy that Theo's in love with Scott, but why would Scott be into Theo? I'm not saying he couldn't be, I'm just saying I never got the sense that he was super captivated by Theo or meaningfully challenged to grow by Theo the way Theo was by him. I think that's the real stumbling block for me here, actually -- I have other ships where I'm really only interested in one of the characters involved, but in those cases I still have a good grasp on why both characters might be interested in the other. But I struggle to see Scott's POV in Sceo.

What would have made you like it?

If I cared more about Theo? Lol. And if S5 & S6 were better. And if we got more of Scott's POV on the relationship that convinced me that Theo could do something unique for him as a partner.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

Sure, I can definitely see the appeal. Childhood friends where one of them has the other up on a pedestal, then goes away and Comes Back Wrong, then tries to tear down the other one from their pedestal and steal their life to the point of literally murdering them, then tries to redeem themselves largely because they are so inspired by that other person? Hell yeah! That's juicy! I certainly understand its popularity more than I understand the popularity of Thiam. (No offense to Thiam shippers, but, I don't get y'all.)

#sorry theo but you will never be marcy wu #thanks for sending! this was fun :) feel free to send more if you want!#the bite is a gift #he cares about people

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bredforloyalty · 2 years

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for the unpopular opinion .. d*stial (sorry)

it's okay thank you for the ask!! i just appreciate that no one's gone for the jugular, yet, lmaooo. let's not discuss further what this means

but okay destiel, whatever, i'm not sure i want to sit here all day and type and, act like i can make people who are committed to misunderstanding me (hellers in this case) see my point of view lol.. but the post did say 'brutally honest opinion' and i've got PLANY off time..... i will say, here, that i personally kind of hate it, which you obviously knew. given the way you asked 🥴 i'll just put the uhh vent under a cut

(i'm gonna continue using the word heller but i really don't mean it in a derogatory way, i find it fun and when i first started watching spn and getting involved with the fandom, destiel enthusiasts were calling themselves that, and it's shorter than destiel enthusiast. or enjoyer. so yeah i mean nothing bad by that, if anyone's got a better idea of what to call them i'm listening)

umm so generally i don't hate ships, like i mean unless i find a good reason, unless they're fundamentally offensive (what falls under that umbrella for you might differ from what falls under it for me. this one's not offensive though). but the stupidity i have witnessed from hellers specifically. it's astounding. that's what i hate, how pervasive it is, the way of looking at the show that hellers have 😬 'they silenced you' says so much, i don't know how they got there. it seems like a group hallucination, most of the queerbaiting and the versions of the characters people have in their heads. especially dean

i can't comprehend what some of the destiel bloggers on here saw in the show, i don't know what they watched, i don't know how they're looking at the world, it's a mystery to me. maybe they really wanted it, i mean destiel to,, not be a baseless ship, maybe they really wanted those crumbs from canon. why though.... i have such a hard time sympathizing with that, with the people who annoyed the actors at cons, who demanded shit from the writers and thought the finale wasn't fit for the characters because a ship that's huge on tumblr blinded them to what actually happened in the show....... and it's the community that's essentially responsible for the novel ship it, i mean that in itself is unforgivable LMAO

it's the wrong approach to, well, media, imo. asking for "representation". when there was zero intention there from the beginning. it just isn't there, that's what i think: destiel is not there, it is fanon, almost entirely. which wouldn't be a problem, but big internet communities have convinced themselves otherwise, and started shitting on people who watched the show for the show and not for the "secret good version of supernatural in their heads". the way i used to use that phrase and now it fills me with loathing lmaoo before i watched any of spn, i was under the impression there was at least tension or a little queerbaiting. but the characters are just not who hellers pretend they are 😔 i've been cheated by destiel, i've been lied to, big destiel burnt my crops and snuck into my house in the middle of the night and killed my children and stole my donkey gyshjcyx you get the idea

it seems like a completely different way of approaching entertainment. this "let's ignore canon and see how well it works as clay" thing. why not watch a romcom. is this really the big romance for you? otp, destiel? the hill you die on, is this, this nothing? there's so much stuff, out there, and you want to. imagine a supernatural that's different in all key aspects from the real show

Some people, some hellers, fervently deny fundamental parts of spn, and that, i hate </3 tv shows aren't completely subjective, you can't just make shit up, there's intentions and narratives and, whatever the fuck, you know. even if the show isn't really good. it's not all in the eye of the beholder, some interpretations ARE simply dumb or biased. i'm incredibly tired of people with Those interpretations being the loudest, and of them roping so many others in

like, mutuals who haven't seen a minute of this show put stupid spn posts on my dash because the desticule convinced them of stupid shit 😭 i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm whiny about this. i'm whiny because supernatural has become fucking important to me and people don't even attempt to see it for the parts i think are good, they get straight to butchering it and playing tea party with the monster stitched together from its corpse gxsfhxy

like watching the show for destiel is kind of an insult towards me </3 and it's also completely alien. don't know where it comes from, i can't even stand misha collins's acting, i do think it's worse than both jackles and jarpad, and castiel is just not interesting to me. making him and his relationship with dean interesting sounds like a really tough job, you're doing all the work, because the writers served almost nothing

so there, that's my opinion. destiel is bland, not supported by canon in major ways, plus it does the opposite of pleasing me aesthetically :( but if i think of what it could be, there's something there? michael's vessel and a violent hunter, daddy's blunt little instrument, with the angel who rebelled? :) on paper it doesn't suck! i have a few mutuals who ship destiel among other things who are totally cool and normal. i wouldn't have big problems with the ship and shippers just doing their own thing

if there was any chance of me ever becoming interested in dean/cas or suddenly finding myself compelled, it's gone by now. died. raise a glass to the memory of a positive relationship between me and deancas 💔💔💔

#ask

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sometimesrosy · 5 years

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Hi Rosy, I didn't want you to get involved in a other drama but it seems to me that you've been in this fandom for a while, and there's something I don't understand. First, what do you think of the Ship Alliance created by S*chin? Is it a good idea ? I don't doubt that it starts from a good intention but with this fandom nothing is easy. [1/3]

[2/3] Then why do I see a lot of people on twitter say that the cast hates B*llarke? I've been watching the 1oo since 2017 and maybe I missed things, but even today except R*chard who was not cool with fans in a convention, L*ndsay who said bc would be boring, E*iza with his "b*llarke sh*t" and T*sya who just defend the ship in which her character is part of. I don't understand no, it's just their opinion, you don't have to agree with everything.

Hi Rosie, I didn't want you to get involved [3/3] Regarding J*son I don't read interviews and i don't take seriously his tweets or reblog whatever but I don't think he hates bc either. I'm just trying to understand why there is this generalization, I know that with the ship war in 2016 things were awful and everyone evolved feel miserable and that now many have lost hope and are disappointed but well. Hope you doing okay, love your meta about the show !

Yeah, I’ve been around. And I used to get involved and look for everything they said and all the tweets and interviews. I don’t anymore. And more than not getting involved in the cast and crew’s social media presence I really don’t want to be involved in the FANDOM’s interaction with cast and crew’s social media presence, because fandom keeps trying to draw the cast and crew into their shipwars and other nonsense. Fandom won’t LET anyone be positive, because the problem is, if they are positive about one thing, someone else will feel they are being slighted, and turn them into the enemy. If Sachin loves Tasya and tweets about how great she and her character are, it’s seen as being against Bellarke. Because fandom HAS to pit themselves against whoever is “against” their ship.

When I first saw Sachin’s initiative, I was like cool. Go for it! Then I read the comments and I was like. Oh God. Not again. You Fucking ASSHOLES.

The cast does not hate Bellarke. They don’t hate bellarkers. They might very well hate the people who harass them. That is not just bellarkers, for sure. People are pretty awful to other people in this fandom, maybe in all fandoms, maybe on the internet, maybe irl, too.

I have personally been involved in multiple fandom initiatives to be positive and spread positivity in this fandom. You know what happens when you make a concerted effort to BE positive here? People come out of the woodwork to attack you and make you miserable, to hurt you, to call you names, to destroy you. Every single time.

This is why I gave up on the bulk of fandom and just retreated to my geeky little corner here and stopped interacting so much, or debating, or reading reviews, or twitter.

I actually DO take Jason’s tweets and interviews seriously. Remarkably, he’s the one who’s statements are actually the most revealing of the coming story. He doesn’t hate Bellarke. At all. He’s a big fan. That’s the story he’s telling, but fandom doesn’t like the pacing of his bellarke story, and they don’t like the journey of it, and they don’t like the various obstacles, and they don’t like the genre of it, and they especially don’t like that he’s FINE with it the way it is and is not concerned about making Bellarke bone right now, because he’d rather spin out the story, keep the tension going, than give in to a fandom that acts like toddlers having a tantrum. He is more interested in his show and his story and his vision of bellarke than he is in fandom… and for a fandom that thinks the story is about THEM, that is an offense. And makes him the enemy.

As for everything all cast members have done “to” the bellarke fandom… I think we should remember that the cast members are all human beings. They relate to the show not through shipping, but through their jobs, their colleagues, the characters they bring to life, the people they work with, the intensity of filming, the scripts, their scenes. The show is actually not just about bellarke, and if the actors relate to the story through other characters and other ships, it is offensive of the fandom to demand that their otp gets all the attention.They have other concerns in their life than fandom and one particular ship, whatever ship that is.

Sachin defended Tasya because Tasya was being attacked by fandom. This is not an offense against fandom. This is not Sachin causing division. This is fandom behaving badly and harassing people. Now he wants to reconsider the way he relates to fandom and start this initiative, and people are attacking him as a villain.

He’s not a villain. He’s an actor. And not a big one. He’s just a guy with a minor role on a cult tv show, trying to use his small realm of influence to do something positive.

I never should have read the comments on his tweets. Because what I saw was that it’s not the cast and crew that are the bad guys in this fandom. It’s the fandom. And fandom refuses to consider their own biases, actions and choices in the drama that we keep getting drawn into. They continually blame other people for their own behavior, justifying the harm they cause by saying other people are responsible. This is not true. Fandom is out of control. And none of us can control the rest of fandom. We can only control ourselves, and what we allow into our fandom experience. Jason and the cast are not evil because they tweet something shippers don’t like. Starting a war because someone tries to be positive and create the fandom they’d like to interact with is NOT the role of a good guy.

We don’t DESERVE to get the ship we want to bone just because we love them. We did nothing to earn that deserving. Just existing and watching a tv show, even voting in polls or tweeting about it doesn’t mean we DESERVE our otp to be endgame. We are not entitled to it. It is not ours. This story belongs to someone else. Jason. And the rest of the cast and crew. It’s THEIR story. They are creating. We’re an audience. They are not owed our praise, our attention, or our love. They have to earn it by telling a good story. We are not owed the story we think we should get.

I actually got an ask about Sachin yesterday and didn’t want to answer because I would be negative after seeing the fandom reaction. But I’m sure you all saw the negative reaction on your own now. Sachin is not a bad guy for wanting to be positive. We are the bad guys for seeing someone wanting to be positive and then turning around and tearing him apart for wanting something better. And this is what keeps happening in fandom, again and again. It is exhausting.

I am honestly surprised that I have not lost any followers, but have continued to gain, steadily, because I pretty much hate 75% of fandom now. And I’m not particularly quiet about it. I’m rude. I flat out insult fandom and refuse to be drawn into their nonsense. I’m sick of the meangirls and the burn books and the shipwars and the pettiness and immaturity and the gossip and ignorance and self involvement and entitlement. Oh my god the entitlement. As they accuse JR of causing all the division and bad feelings in fandom while completely ignoring their own actions and dismissing their own aggressive, disrespectful, demanding, cruel, relentless, entitled attitude.

No one should be allowed to comment on any tweet or post without first asking themselves, “what role do I have to play in this? am I doing the right thing? how have I contributed to this? am I correct in my thinking?”

ugh. i rant. this is all the same bullshit we’ve been dealing with the whole time. fandom disgusts me.

#i have other asks on the same topic and i’m just going to use this one to answer you all ok?#fandom is full of shit and they keep blaming other people for the shit and i’m tired

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quellines-stories · 6 years

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Hi!! I don't mean this to come off as offensive, I'm genuinely interested in your point of view RE your post about underage ships-people also use ships which contain abuse and artwork/fics depicting such to help them cope with their own abusive experiences. Shouldn't people have this outlet to be able to express their emotions etc., through characters, as long as their work is properly tagged?

No worries, this doesn’t come off as offensive at all! :)

However, considering this is something I’ve already thoroughly discussed in the link I provide later on below, I would prefer you sending me an IM (Instant Message) if possible so I don’t spam my followers with summaries of what can be found in said link, lol! I really don’t mind discussing this kind of stuff with people that have an open mind considering I used to be on the opposite side of this argument and believed coping through this kind of content was useful before actually looking into it and accepting I couldn’t counter the points I’d found. In fact, if you have any counters, I’d be glad to hear them– I’ve changed my opinions on quite a few things in the past when met with arguments I couldn’t find counters to, and I don’t mind debating as long as the people I’m debating with consider what I have to say just the same when it comes to counters.

As someone who once used fictional content to cope with the abuse I went through, I USED to believe this was an outlet which should be available, however after realizing such outlets did much more harm than good to both victims and potential victims, I changed my stance upon understanding that coping through reliving and sexualizing the trauma you went through isn’t a healthy way to cope considering it keeps you stuck with that trauma while risking you developing into an adult that enjoys ped0phili@c content. I also realized those outlets are still used by very real ped0phile$ that get their rocks off to the concept of abusing kids, as well as the fact those outlets are often used as ways for ped0phile$ to normalize their abuse when it comes to potential victims. There’s no long term nor significant benefits when it comes to these outlets.

I’ve already throughly discussed how these coping outlets result in harm rather than healing to victims, and a high risk to potential victims as grooming material, and the likelihood of these outlets becoming a space for ped0ph!les looking for ped0phili@c content more so than becoming a space for victims (which shouldn’t be shared, for obvious reasons. Outlets like these result in ped0phile$ and victims interacting, which results in damage and risk to the victims.)

I discussed this much more so in the link below, and provided sources along with credentials.

http://quellines-stories.tumblr.com/post/162523933856/quellines-stories-awareslaura

This goes over quite a bit of the harms which come that normalizing ped0phili@c fiction for any reason brings. If you want to stick to finding out why it’s harmful when it comes to using it as a coping mechanism, feel free to refer to point 2 in the link.

I’ll put in a few quotes to summarize, however the sources and overall explanations are in the link if you’d rather refer to that.

“using abusive ships as a coping mechanism to abuse is unhealthy due to how it keeps the victim reliant on a method of reliving the past through fiction rather than moving on and is not at all the same thing as exposure therapy.” (2)

“it’s a red flag is because it raises a risk of the consumer losing more and more control over whether they just like it in fiction rather than bringing it into reality. The more they consume, the more it desensitizes them, and the more it raises the chance of it becoming something they begin to enjoy outside of fiction.” (1)

“fandoms which are centered around pedophilia, rape, and abuse is bound to have people who have either have committed or are restraining themselves from committing those things in it.” (6)

“fictional media which romanticizes and/or normalizes abusive behavior is a common tool abusers use to groom their victims into believing the abuse they face is normal,” (2)

Overall, there’s not a good reason for anyone to use ped0phili@c based outlets to cope, much less grown adults, which is something I didn’t realize until I stopped listening to what self proclaimed Tumblr fandom elders (with no experience on the harms) claimed, and actually got to see a psychologist to help me recover from the abuse I wasn’t healthily recovering from when it came to attempting to use this faulty coping method that did more good than harm, and began to go into a field to obtain a degree (which I got a while back) involving adolescent psychology while studying the pros and cons of the correlating influence fiction which romanticizes and and normalizes abuse like this has on reality.

Plus, sexualizing characters portrayed by underage actors to cope is extremely predatory to do to those actors– there’s never a good reason to fetishize minors… they are not a tool to ever be used for anyone’s personal coping methods, and certainly not something grown adults should be getting their rocks off to for ANY reason. Adults that use the excuse of “coping” so they can sexualize a character played by an underage actor is something which should be seen as a red flag, because children and teenagers should NEVER be used as a source for kinks, no matter the reason. They are not crutches to healing and therefore shouldn’t be pulled into someone’s so called “healing” through coping, despite how sexualizing the abuse one went through is not healing whatsoever. If the only way someone can make themselves feel better is through exposing and fetishizing minors, that should be a pretty clear indication that that method isn’t actually working, because people’s expense should NOT be the source of one’s healing. That is what my post you were referring to was about.

I like to emphasize that valuing real people is more important than valuing the entertainment gained from fictional content, and while there might be some that disregard that or brush off what was discussed above, the reason I debate about this kind of thing is to give those who want to stop consuming content like this a recommendation on how to do so as well as an explanation of why doing so can be more beneficial than remaining reliant on such content, which is further explained step by step on the last part of the link :) Additionally, I also like to debate to see if anyone has counters I hadn’t considered, since I’ve changed my mind on this kind of thing before considering i used to support such outlets when using them as an unhealthy coping mechanism.

#ask #anon #quellines debates

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trashy-greyjoy · 6 years

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I really don't think the actors give a crap about ships. Or most of them I think they care about how complex of scenes they can get for their abilities. That's it. When they lash out or say something negative the way some have apparently been doing, I bet it has to do with some fans that are sticking out as obnoxious. Passionate shippers can be some of that, especially those who start to take it to personal lives like undermining the actors real life personal relationships etc..Twitter's crazy

Ok I get being annoyed with being constantly asked about ships, especially when you're not a part of them, instead of the story. I understand that. But it is still NO excuse for being rude to fans to the extent that some actors in this show have. Being an actor and especially one on a show targeted towards teens and young adults, fandom and shippers come with the job. And 5 seasons in they know that. This show is still in the air because of the support and action of that fandom. And to say that directly to someone's face at a con, that they paid their own money to attend to meet you? Its unprofessional and its rude. You can not ship the characters or even dislike them, but there should be a level of professionalism when it comes to stating that. Bob might not like bleggo (based on previous interviews) or bellarke (according to richard) but he's never been rude to fans about it. He's never made fun of the fandoms for it. Lindseys made jokes about blarke in the past ("do you REALLY want bellarke??") But again she hasn't been outwardly rude to fans or the fandom. The cast knows that bellarke is a big deal. Its a ship involving the series leads that has a large fan base, (a fan base that didn't try to cancel their show and put them out of a job) so by now they should know it'll be talked about in interviews and they should know how to answer it without being rude to THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT YOU. Going forward we should just stop asking the whole cast the same blarke quesrions and just watch it unfold. The cast just keeps getting more careless and offensive and its not worth it. It ruins the experience of watching the show. It doesn't personally bother me because i dont really care what they think about the ships they arent involved in and it doesn't change the script they're playing, but they should still be more considerate to their fans. 👌💖

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motorcyclegirlfriends · 7 years

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it's about the pattern. not JJ's pattern, all shows and f/f ships. we've seen actors/producers do this many times. everyone thinks they're special and should be judged on their life of goodness. no. an action can be judged against the systemic pattern too. "not the story we're telling, just friends, i don't see it, won't happen, family show"-- this constitutes a visible pattern. the pattern is homophobic, i don't care what your feefees were at the time. also "ignorance of the law..."

Late ass reply, and I honestly hate to bring the topic up, but here we go:

“Family show” is different, actually homophobic. Has the secret meaning of “seeing gay people living their lives is harmful to children”. (This is what I mean by an innately homophobic phrase)

“Not the story we’re telling” is shady to me, because it feels like “we’re not being activists, we’re telling normal stories” which is offensive, but it might just actually be their way of saying “we’re not gonna go that direction” ? Depends on if my vibes about it are right.

“They’re only friends” is just alerting us to whether or not they’re gonna get together.

This isn’t a package deal. Saying one of these things doesn’t mean you mean or think the others, regardless of what other people have said in the past.

And the way they emphatically said it wasn’t, “you’re crazy for thinking it’s a possibility!”

It seemed more like, “everyone is going crazy for this thing that’s not actually gonna happen.” Like a half put-on exasperation. Exasperation that we have no reason to believe exists because the ship is gay.

(The common theory is that Jeremy’s reaction had to do with the fandom’s intensity. It’s both eclipsing of the canon content that they’re actually working on on purpose, and has been historically aggressive. Personally, I think Melissa was just kinda going with it for humor.)

And just in case anyone was wondering: these writers deciding not to make both of their leads wlw just isn’t homophobic.

There is indeed a pattern of not having representation in the media, not including diversity in shows over and over and over again, when writers who aren’t a minority should still be able to relate to these people enough to tell stories that include them. They should be able to see themselves in these people.

If they can’t, that hints at a larger issue within them...

But shipping is different.

Someone can’t force themselves to ship something different than their orientation. A straight writer wouldn’t feel pleasure in writing a gay relationship any more than a gay writer would feel pleasure in writing a straight relationship.

Any more than a gay person would feel pleasure in watching a straight relationship.

Expecting a straight person to change their lead- who is often their favorite character and who they most relate to- so that they start dating someone of the same sex, when they themselves aren’t of that orientation and can’t feel the emotion of the relationship, is expecting too much.

If that decision were made, it would be specifically for the benefit of the fans, for the cause, and maybe because they’re logically interested in the prospect. But they would not feel it in a romantic, emotional way. Not the way we do.

And writers write things they want to see more than they write for other people to see it.

If you’ve written fanfiction, you know that you don’t want to write for a ship you don’t ship. You might do it from time to time, in small doses for people who request something about them, but your main focus is the ship that you do like. (Side note: imagine your frustration if the ship you do like to write about is massively less popular than the one you don’t.)

This might be why most lgbt+ characters are side characters. Because the writers can’t relate to them in that way, and they want the most important character to also be their favorite character.

They can’t project themselves onto the characters and feel like they’re experiencing the romance.

And if the story is romance-focused, then it is especially unlikely that they’d have the main character be gay. Not unless there is some degree of fluidity in their sexuality.

The solution is to have writers who can relate.

Lgbt+ writers.

When writers see that the fans like something a lot, they take a second look at it, and if they agree, they might change the story.

But straight writers will never agree about gay chemistry, because they can’t feel it.

And so we need more wlw/mlm/etc. writers out there, so that when we show a writer that this other ship has chemistry, they’ll be able to feel it and then possibly turn the story in that direction, instead of only advancing the gay ships that they had designated from the beginning.

This is where Supergirl has gone wrong, in (what it looks like) pushing Ali Adler, lesbian writer, off the show. That’s what we should be raging about.

That a writer who might have seen the chemistry is gone.

Not that these writers don’t personally see the chemistry of a specific ship.

Also, you can’t say “let’s compare it to the rest of society” and then leave out the fact that they have an actual canon lesbian ship.

That’s the full picture.

And not just because they have some positive track record that absolves them, but because it means that this isn’t “give us a gay character!” to which they respond with “~We don’t want to tell that story~.”

(Or show us that, in never having a gay character or only having one for five minutes)

This is, “Make this specific character gay!”

And then they respond with, “No, actually, we plan to keep that one straight.”

So if this is the reason that what they said is homophobic, then you’re also mad at the actors for just knowing what the writers are doing.

If I had gotten a lot of asks sent to me saying “Lena and Kara might actually end up being canonically together!” I might have responded in the same way.

“They’re not gonna get together, they’re (canonically) only friends.”

Now, I’d have more tact than Jeremy, because I know people’s real feelings are involved in this, but even if I were blunt about it, it wouldn’t make me homophobic.

And your “ignorance of the law” argument just doesn’t apply to the fandom’s “feefees”.

Because that’s what's happening.

It’s not that the cast was ignorant that what they were saying was homophobic (because it wasn’t), it’s that they were ignorant that lgbt+ fans’ feelings would be hurt because they hold the ship close to their heart.

It’s like if someone called the rainbow flag ugly, not realizing that people are very emotionally attached to it’s image.

It’s kind of like, “They should probably know that people might feel that way...” but calling the flag ugly isn’t actually homophobic.

Now, if they think it’s ugly because it reminds them of gay people, that’s homophobic.

If they called it ugly to purposefully hurt gay people, that’s homophobic.

But we can’t know that that’s what they’re thinking from just that statement alone, just like we can’t know what Jeremy and Melissa were thinking from just their statements.

(This is where examples of their past “allyship” come into play. It’s not “Melissa was on glee so she can’t be homophobic.” It’s “Hey, because of their track record, we have no reason to think there was anything secretly nefarious behind what they said. They just didn’t realize how seriously wlw take their non-canon ships.”)

And yet people have been automatically projecting homophobia onto what they said.

They’re placing mockery of gay fans or feelings of disdain for two women being together onto the event when it just isn’t there.

If anything, I think if Jeremy and Melissa were actually uncomfortable with Supercorp, they’d have been exponentially more careful with their words.

#supergirl #supercorp #melissa benoist #jeremy jordan #sdcc superfail #Anonymous #the format for this is kind of a mess

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nyxelestia · 7 years

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You're basically saying that TW stole a bunch of tropes commonly used by Stereks in their romantic Sterek fics, and in the next breath blaming Sterek fans for leaving when it became evident tptb had no intention of exploring their relationship. Viewers have no obligation to continue watching a show they feel no attachment to, and contrary to Posey's statement, I don't think there is any right or wrong reason to watch a show. You also say that the baiting/encouragement by actors, tptb etc 1/-

was benign and innocuous, as they were only doing their job. You say that Stydia and Scallison was hyped as well. Sterek was multitudinously bigger, which was reflected by the hyping of it and the many articles written about it in mainstream media. You then blame Sterek fans for buying into it, which OK, I guess we were all supposed to be savvy enough to realize it was all for funsies. I disagree with the notion that it’s the job of the cast and crew to tease a queer ship that they have no 2/-

make canon, just because fans enjoy it. The honest thing would have been to say something along the line of “we see you dig Sterek, that’s great! It’s not going canon but we support your creativity”. You see basis for Scerek in canon, which awesome. Write all the fics about them. Don’t however discredit the vast number of people who did see canon basis for Sterek. Not everyone has been fooled by corrupted gifsets. As for the clusterfuck that is the bi-baiting of Stiles. That’s just ugly. ¾

They baited and baited his bisexuality, whilst being adamant of not ever explicitly stating it. I think the fact that the writers felt compelled to get Stiles a gf, is the main warning sign of their incompetence. “Erica’s going to be girlfriend material. Gage leaves. Oh shit, we have to bring in another girl. YES, an as of yet completely forgotten Hale girl! Adelaide leaves. Desperation grows. AH, dub-con sex between two mentally ill teens in an institution!”. Sterek fans are not at fault here.

Ever seen that gifset about “when Stiles was being protective of Derek” when Chris was threatening him and Jackson in the last episode of Season 1? Derek was never mentioned in that scene, and Stiles was talking about Scott and Kate. // Just a friendly reminder that Derek was in fact mentioned in that scene. STILES: “Would you prefer I locked him in the basement and burned the whole house down around him?” … “Oh right, Derek said you guys had a code. Guess no one ever breaks it.” -Transcript

Posey has always referred to TW as “his own show” - ex: the cast interview with Cody C. and Dylan Sprayerry in which Posey states that shipping non canon pairing doesn’t make any sense and it’s incredibly offensive and disrespectful towards the writer, the producers and everyone involved in “his show” - and he also became a producer, so… Why did Posey never address what HIS show have done to Arden/Kira? He simply said that “Scott doesn’t need a love interest in order to be interesting” instead

You are picking and choosing from interviews to supplement your agenda.

TPTB aren’t a monolith, either - they are a group of writers, producers, and actors who all have to answer to someone else (MTV), even Jeff Davis. Collectively, have their own agenda, their own plans for the story as a work of narration, and the show as a production. They have to react and take into account the fanbase - but that does not mean that fans get to dictate the show, either. They also regularly disagree with each other, have no idea what the central narrative will be, or sometimes just aren’t in constant communication with each other.

Queerbaiting, generally speaking, is a shitty thing to do. Especially on a show that also, already, has queer characters. On that, we agree. And I don’t know how you got “benign and innocuous” out of “they were doing their jobs”. You are, again, trying to put words into my metaphorical mouth to make a strawman argument.

And you’re right, we are going to disagree on most of the rest.

Such as reasons for watching a show. There is a right reason and a wrong reason for watching a show. It’s not about characters or ships or plot - it’s about watching the show to enjoy the show, vs watching it because you keep waiting for something to enjoy (and then getting mad when something that was never supposed to be there, isn’t there).

There is a world of difference between watching the show for inspiration for Sterek, and watching the show expecting Sterek to happen. There is a world of difference between watching the show because you like a side character, and waiting for that side character to supplant the main character as the star of the show. There is a world of difference between hoping for a ship and expecting a ship.

There is also a world of difference between “listening to fandom” and “bowing down to fandom”. By and large, the producers and actors of the show were listening. They were not obeying, they never had to, and they never should have had to.

As for the actors, there is also a world of difference between “I’d be down to play this” and “this is probably going to happen”. There is a world of difference between “I have some ideas for this dynamic” and “I want these two characters to hook up/end up together”. There is a world of difference between “this could happen (as could many other things)” vs “this probably will happen (as opposed to many other things)”.

It’s that element of picking and choosing again. Take Hoechlin’s idea for how the Darach confrontation in Derek’s loft could’ve gone - his idea was for a platonic interaction between two characters who he refers to as friends and partners in crime. Fandom took it as a shipping scene. This is probably the force that also leads to people seeing so many “Sterek questions” in interviews and panels that they forget - or never see in the first place - things like questions about Stydia, or other ships, or other character arcs unrelated to shipping at all.

I don’t pretend to have seen all the Teen Wolf interviews and such ever, but what I have seen is that along with Sterek, the cast have a lot to say about a lot of ships, hypothetical and otherwise. Of course, if you’re only ever looking for what they say about your own ship - and you only ship one thing - you’ll never see them.

(Which is probably why Posey got accused of being a homophobe. If you only pay attention to what he says about Sterek, then it’s easy to make that accusation, because you’ve never seen or paid attention to him talking about being open to Scott having a boyfriend, and being down to play Sciles or Scisaac.)

Yes, they were pandering to Sterek shippers. They were also pandering to Stydia shippers. They were pandering to Scallison shippers even while building an Allisaac relationship. They were pandering to Sterek and Stydia shippers while also pandering to the former Sterica base with Stora, and then with Stalia.

And I hate to break it to you, but Stiles’ “would you prefer I locked him in a basement?” line was still about Scott, not Derek. The conversation was about Kate, and Stiles didn’t particularly care about Derek in that scene, or in that season as a whole. Mentioning a piece of information provided by Derek was still about Kate.

I also really hate to break this to you, but Posey’s promotion doesn’t actually give him much sway over the decisions made about the show, just how those decisions are carried out. Equating the star of a show referring to said show as “theirs” and equating it with production power is a strawman argument - you are ascribing power and influence that Posey does not have to him, then blaming him for not using it, and for not putting his career on the line to speak more openly about the problems of the show.

It would ultimately achieve nothing and fix nothing - remember, racism isn’t just about individual shows, but also about the broader industry, and bias against WOC is rampant in Hollywood, MTV and otherwise. Look at fucking Hawaii 5-0 - if Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park could not get parity on a show whose ensemble they have been a part of since the very beginning of the show, what was Posey going to accomplish for himself or for Cho?

Especially given that he’s facing some tremendous cuts, himself - as a lot of people have pointed out, Scott practically became a side character on his own show in Season 6 to make room for Stydia, and this is with Posey having a production component in the show that was not there in the earlier seasons.

tl;dr - The show did its job of trying to pander to every ship. Sterek fandom took it personally when their ship wasn’t given even more preferential treatment than it was already getting, just because it also happened to be so big.

I’ve said before that fandom often blames Scott for failing to be omniscient. What you are doing is blaming Posey for failing to be omnnipotent.

#nyxie answers #anti teen wolf fandom #anti sterek fandom #teen wolf fandom meta #teen wolf #Anonymous #long post

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keenmindspodcast · 6 years

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About Tom death and casual fans who don't belive in his death. I wish they kill him in more convincent way: blown him away, put 20 bullets. That nobody have doubts he is dead. I wish it was Liz in morgue not Harold. We still don't know forwhat was 10 months gap. I don't want find out reading interviews. When I watch show normaly don't do that.

Hi friend. I agree with Jen, all of the casual fans I know do not believe in Tom’s death. True, most of them do not follow any of the actors or writers or TPTB in twitter or Facebook, so they do not know about 2 cakes, or even about Ryan Eggold being cast in another show as the lead. (a NBC’s show set in NYC)

Jen approaches Tom’s death from her perspective of character analysis, and she feels (I think I correctly interpret her feelings her but feel free to correct me Jen) cheated of a show that has hope because Liz has lost her dream. Red failed his daughter by not going to extreme measures to protect Tom.

In many ways The Blacklist is a show about families and love. A family love story.

One thing that is most unbelievable to me about those who hate Tom is that they treat Red as a god, someone whose words must be followed as gospel. And that is very funny, because I have strong suspicions that they never listen to their parents, and went out with the boy or girl they parents told them not to, smoke or injected what they were told not to, and had sex when and with whom their parents told them not to. Yet they expect Liz and Tom to blindly follow what Red tells them to do. Even when Red admits to Dembe that he does not know why he cannot be honest with Liz and accepts Dembe’s accusation that he is still lying to both Liz and Tom.

At the end the most difficult thing about parenthood, and I speak of this from a distance, as I myself am not a parent, but I am a daughter, so perhaps I have a less involved perspective, is letting go. Is accepting your child has grown up, and doing a leap of trust to treating them as adults. Red has made some headway: he tells Kate that Liz is who she is, and she has chosen to remain close to the criminal side, even as she is on the other side. He calls her Elizabeth, instead of Lizzy. And he has begun to treat her chosen life partner with a semblance of civility.

And perhaps the most difficult thing to do for a parent is to accept a child’s chosen partner. To accept that regardless of such acceptance, this person is now part of ones family. That person is never who the parent would have chosen, but it is not the parent’s choice. Once children are born, that link closes. Even if the in-law leaves, the child creates a bond for life.

The wise parent accept the choice and welcomes the person into the fold.

So we know that Red could have trusted Tom as being a family member. He could have shared the identity of the bones, or he could have at least told him why he needed to keep that secret.

I do not count:

Your curiosity is understandable. A mysterious suitcasebequeathed to you by a dying woman who insists that Elizabeth must be apprisedof its contents. But what if instead of happiness or closure,giving it to her has the opposite effect?

the “what if” there pretty much sell it as a clever turn to phrase that allows Red to be honest and avoid the truth. Like “the way Sam told the story”, and denying he is Liz’s father because Sam is, yet Liz is his daughter. being honest and being truthful are not the same thing.

The reasons Red gives for not trusting Tom, that he married Liz because he fell in love with her, are very shallow, coming from a man who in appearance fell in love with a soviet soy and had a child with her, carrying the affair for at least 5 years and in theory abandoned his wife and child, and betrayed his country,

But then again, Red has apparently only trusted fully Dembe. Not even Kate knew it all: She did not know that Red is Liz’s biological father and she did not know about Dom, which means she did not know Katarina’s real identity and possible her real relationship to Red.

At the end, it was precisely that which created the big problem, because Kate thought Red was acting above his rights as Liz’s protector, not as her father.

Red has trust issues, which work perfectly well for his endeavors, but which are not good for family matters. I suspect part of Red’s secret has to do with shame or fear, which @schadenfreudequeen ‘s excellent Jungian analysis confirmed.

Most of what Red saw and feared with Tom had less to do with Tom himself, that with his feelings and unresolved issues with Katarina. Even before we learned that Katarina was a soviet covert agent, a honeytrap, I already was suspecting that Red’s feeling about it were a lot more personal than care for Liz.

Tom was a walking, talking parallel to Katarina. The show went to great lengths to pummel these parallels:

Tom is assigned to Liz.

Tom falls in love with Liz and marries her

Tom makes believe his new employer that he did so as a job, masking his true feelings

Liz finds out and stays in the marriage, doing her own spying

Liz and Tom get back together, have Agnes.

Tom is drawn into the suitcase’s business by Mr. Kaplan. He is eventually killed.

Liz finds out when she recovers from her extensive injuries that Tom is dead.

She feels unable to be a parent, consumed by anger, wanting revenge, and worried about the wellbeing of her child. She places Agnes with Scottie.

In the midst of her recovery Liz has an incident that propels her forward, one in which she has to resort to extreme violence, and continues forward.

The show also has gone to great lengths to show a fundamental difference between Red and Liz: Liz believes in getting even, and then moving on. Red cannot: he functions in that respect as a binary being: he kills or he does not.

Betraying Red carries death, or in the case of people closest to him, banishment. Liz, in a trait she shares with her mother in law, believes in punishment appropriate to the offense, and moving on. She broke Tom’s thumb, shot him 3 times, and she imprisoned him in a filthy and cold boat for 4 months, exchanging blankets and medical attention for information, and then she was able to move on. Scottie had Solomon beat him up.

I kept him prisoner in the hull of a ship andtortured him for two months, so in my book we’re even.

Can the score be even now? Can this be over?

So, where am I going with all this?

To a point that I have tried to make many times. The parallels work even better if we ask ourselves three questions:

Why is Dom’s identity such a close guarded secret?

Why does Dom have NO pictures in his house?

Why does Red have no pictures anywhere of both the blond child and of Liz? It is one or the other.

The key to the show resides in those 3 questions. Because the real identity of Katarina, her real name are of paramount importance.

I think most people imagine that Katarina is not dead. So, we have 2 fundamental aspects in which Liz’s story deviates from Red’s:

Liz was married to Tom

Tom is dead

So, can I go back now to Cape May? In his hallucination, when forced to explain the second dish on the table, he says is his wife. When he is watching Liz as Bubble girl, we have a woman seen from the waist down. Why? Why is there no residence in which Red indulges by having pictures of the blond girl, the one in the swing and of Liz? He obviously cares about both, Jennifer and Liz? Red has stressed that biological links are unimportant, that is caring for a child that makes a father, so how could be so detached from Jennifer?

And when we start to think of Dom’s relationship to Red, it is inevitable to me that we arrive at a relationship that most of us know well: in-laws. Either we are an in-law, we grow up seeing our parents relate to their in-laws, we have in-laws. Forget about the noise of the plot and watch the performance. Ask a total stranger to watch Red and Dom scene and ask them what he think the relationship is.

And so, I suspect Red was married to Katarina. Red experienced the betrayal of a spouse but was not able to move forward. Red believes that Liz is playing house with Tom, when she had him on the boat. So, watch the scenes with Carla, again forgetting about the plot. Add that they cannot express any of their real feelings and issues because they are witness. They have a few moments alone that we see: in the cabin, when we start by Carla punching Red in the mouth.

Now: If Carla is one of Katarina’s many names, then she is most certainly alive, and Red knows where she is. And Red had prevented her from coming into Liz’s life via their agreement, something Liz calls unforgivable: keeping her from her mother.

And if so, we know that Red believed her dead at some point, in all he tells Ressler and Liz, and that Katarina thought he was dead. We have a Romeo and Juliet situation.

And so now we have Liz waking up to learn Tom is dead. Do we have a direct knowledge? No. It was Harold whom we see in the morgue. We have a tombstone that reads Keen Tom.

And we have a character who learned almost all of the big secret, if not all.

Tom may be alive, and kept away for various circumstances, But if he is, he will not come back until close to the end, because he learned it all.

So the question is, is The Blacklist close to the spy genre, in which almost inevitably romance and love does not bear well, the very traits that makes a spy good prevent them from that happy family life. Or will the show be a brilliant caper, in which the protagonists will eventually walk away with the treasure?

That I do not know.

But I would say you are correct in discarding anything you have not learned from watching the show as it aired.

Tessa.

PS. I am sure Jen will have a different answer than mine. I hope she answers it too.

#The Blacklist #Keen Minds Podcast #tessa #tom keen

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