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ajollybirdcollector · 2 years

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HOTD: Succession is messy and Alicent has a point

I’ve seen many takes all over the internet that Alicent is power-hungry and wants to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra in favour of her own kids. That the Greens have no rights, that Rhaenyra is the heir, that it doesn’t matter that her kids are bastards because they have their claim to the throne through their mother, etc... And I wholeheartedly disagree.

I do not think Alicent necessarily wants the throne, actually, we are given quite clear indications in the earlier episodes that Alicent did not want Aegon to be named heir ahead of Rhaenyra but she quickly becomes to understand that things are not going to unfold smoothly and it’s mainly due to the patriarchal system of Westeros but also how Rhaenyra behaves as an individual. Early in the show, Alicent is made aware by her father of how ugly the situation could turn out, she also understands that Viserys is not willing to clean up the mess (much of it of his own making), that Rhaenyra is going to act however the fuck she wants and that Alicent can trust neither with her own safety and the safety of her children. Alicent knows shit is going to go down regardless and that she and her kids will die if her side loses.

* DISCLAIMERS: I just want to make it clear that I am pro-absolute primogeniture, I do not agree with the male preference within the patriarchy and overall misogyny of Westeros. This post is not about justifying Rhaenyra being passed over or anything like that. It is more about highlighting that Alicent does have a point and that viewers are short-sighted and unfair when they bash her and judge her action with their 2022 worldviews, completely ignoring the different social structure of this fantasy world and the implication it has for how the characters within it behave. Personally, I am neither really on Team Green nor Black when it comes to who has a right to the throne because... It should be Rhaenys Targaryen, she should have be Queen instead of Viserys... so Team Queen Who Definitely Should Have Been? Or even better, Samwell Tarly’s idea of I don’t kow... democracy? Like a government chosen by the people and not some random dude who happens to be the son of some other random dude but hey... We are a couple of centuries too early for that in this world. Furthermore, this post is mostly sticking to a political cost-and-benefit analysis of the situation and won’t got to much into details about how those characters’ personal feelings and traumas obviously affect their decisions.

Alicent has every reason to be fearful of what will happen once Viserys dies. It was already the case before Rhaenyra had children and it only got worse once she gave birth to obvious bastards. You may think what you want about Otto but he puts out a very fair assessment in the show when he says that most lords won’t easily accept a woman as the Queen, especially when there is a healthy dragon-riding male heir (Aegon) available. There are rules of succession in Westeros but nothing is set in stone and many scenarios can unfold. The judicial system is really more like a set of loose customs rather than organized laws that are rigorously enforced like in our world. The laws of inheritance are not clear cut. George R.R. Martin says himself that they are “vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory”. So yes... succession gets messy when several people have a claim.

The ideal situation in this world is to have a strong, healthy and adult legitimate first-born male as heir but when you can’t have that, what is chosen instead? If you know about the lore of ASOIAF, you will see that there are many instances of succession crisis when a choice must be made between different pretenders that all have a claim but none has the absolute best claim (ideal situation above). So what do we choose? The female heir (daughter) or a more distant male relative (half-brother, uncle, cousin, etc), the infant heir who can’t rule or go to war on their own or an adult relative who can, a sickly/insane heir or a healthy relative, the heir with dubious parentage or the relative who is undoubtedly legitimate, etc... There are quite a few messy successions in ASOIAF’s history like the succession of Beron Stark, of Walder Frey, of Aenys I Targaryen, of Aegon IV Targaryen, of Donella Hornwood, of Jeyne Arryn, of Jaehaerys I Targaryen, etc... And most succession disputes involve a lot of people dying. People pick sides and start scheming and fighting and it quickly turns into a bloodshed (the Dance of the Dragons is the most famous one).

In HOTD, there is no first-born male heir to Viserys. So what would the lords of Westeros choose? A first-born female heir (emphasis on the first-born) or a second-born male heir (emphasis on the male)? Viserys might think he settled the matter by naming Rhaenyra his heir, but it doesn’t really mean anything. The lords are technically subservient to the king but in reality, their collective opinion matters more than his individual one, especially once he is dead. I believe Jaehaerys knew that and it’s why he had the lords choose the future heir at the Great Council of 101 rather than declare an heir himself.

And while I’m mentioning the Great Council, the characters in the show are right to say that it sets a precedent. Rhaenys and her children (which included a boy) were passed over in favour of the next male in line, Viserys. By the very precedent that put her father on the throne, Rhaenyra and her children should be passed over in favour of the next male in line who is Aegon. Without that precedent, Rhaenyra would not even be in a position to be heir to the throne or to fight over it with Aegon because Rhaenys would be Queen and Rhaenyra would be way down the line of succession behind Laena, Baela, Rhaena, Laenor and their “Strong” children (although in a world where Rhaenys became Queen instead of Viserys, Laena and Laenor probably would not have married Rhaenyra and Daemon). If you go against that precedent, then what would stop Rhaenys and the Velaryon to start their own war for the throne since Rhaenyra becoming Queen would nullify the precedent set and actually make Rhaenys the person with the best claim to the Iron Throne. Without that precedent, the Iron Throne ‘rightfully’ belongs to Rhaenys. Now, this could have been solved by the marriage of Rhaenyra and Laenor Velaryon. Rhaenys compromises. She forgoes her claim to the throne and in return her son becomes consort and her grandchild will be the monarch after Rhaenyra. She, Rhaenys, never becomes queen but at least her descendants do eventually get the Iron Throne and a war is avoided. Except... Rhaenyra and Laenor do not have children. Worst than that, Rhaenyra passes off bastards as Laenor’s children as well as Rhaenys and Corlys’ grandchildren (in the world of GOT, it doesn’t matter that Laenor is on board with it, especially since Corlys is still the head of House Velaryon and not Laenor). Because of that, both the Iron Throne (Rhaenys’ birthright) and Driftmark (Corlys’ birthright) will go to the bastard sons of their daughter-in-law (Jacaerys for the throne and Lucerys for Driftmark) who are blood-related to neither of them (in a feudal, patriarchal world like ASOIAF in which bloodlines, ancestry and houses are the most important social institutions, it doesn’t matter that Laenor liked those boys as if they were his, it doesn’t even matter if Rhaenys and Corlys like the boys, they are still bastards that aren’t related to them. Equal rights for adopted/non-bio kids do not really stand in such a social system like it does in our world in 2022). And this is why the betrothal of Jacaerys and Lucerys to their cousins Baela and Rhaena was essential to keep House Velaryon on Rhaenyra’s side. Through those marriages, the Iron Throne still goes to Rhaenys’ descendants through Baela and Driftmark still goes to Corlys’ descendants through Rhaena.

Coming back to what the lords would choose between the two claimants (Rhaenyra or Aegon)... Well, every house is going to take a side based on what they think is “right” but mostly according to which side they believe they stand to gain the most on and which side won’t upset the social hierarchy for everybody else (how many succession disputes would break out all over the kingdom if it becomes acceptable for women to have a claim as strong as their younger brother? Most lords will want to avoid that). And it doesn’t matter if Alicent and Aegon do not want to throne (which was made pretty clear that they indeed don’t really want it). It doesn’t matter if they are perfectly fine with letting Rhaenyra become Queen.

Daenerys said it quite accurately to Jon in the last season of GoT which is (roughly): “It doesn’t matter what you (Jon) want. What will happen went they (the lords) demand you press your claim and take what is mine (the throne)? [...] It will take on a life of its own (the truth about his ancestry) and you won’t be able to control it or what it does to people.” She knew that it didn’t matter that Jon had bent the knee to her and that he didn’t want the throne. The lords and ladies who had something to gain (or even just had a preference) from Jon being on the throne instead of Daenerys will plot to get him there and to get her out of the picture. Similarly, Alicent knows very well that many lords (because of misogyny and because of how recklessly Rhaenyra behaves) will force a war on her sons against Rhaenyra.

Furthermore, she knows that if she lets Rhaenyra take the throne before a war can be forced on all of them, her sons will still most likely die. For the Blacks, Alicent’s sons will always be a threat to Rhaenyra’s rule and they will have them killed even if the order to do so doesn’t come from Rhaenyra directly (it would probably be from Daemon or Corlys or any other advisors who will make sure “accidents” happen to ever prevent Aegon, Aemond and Daeron, or anyone else on their behalf, from pressing their claim to the throne.)

Rhaenyra does propose marrying Helaena to Jacaerys to ‘reunite’ the Green and the Black but that is also not a feasible option and Alicent refusing it makes sense. As I mentioned above, Jacaerys and Lucerys must marry Baela or Rhaena if Rhaenyra hopes to keep the support of Rhaenys and House Velaryon. Furthermore, Alicent must have known that if anyone still tries to use her sons to take the throne from Rhaenyra, such a marriage would have condemned her daughter and her grandchildren by her to most probably die (see Elia Martell and her children, they had to be killed even after Robert had won the throne because they will have always been a threat to him).

Really, the only way the Dance of Dragons could have been avoided would have been either to marry Rhaenyra with Aegon (best solution as they would have ruled together and the throne would have passed down to their legitimate son who should have then been married to a daughter of Laena Velaryon, effectively making both Rhaenyra, Team Green and House Velaryon happy) or have Rhaenyra and Laenor actually have a legitimate son that would have married Helaena (different combination, about same result).

Alicent was put in a difficult position in which her life and that of her children would have been on the line no matter what. She could either let everybody uses them as pawns, or take charge of her own side as much as she could and try to get the best deal out of it because everybody else in her life (her father Otto, her husband Viserys, her best friend Rhaenyra) made it clear by their words or actions (or inactions) that she and her well-being are not their priority and that she would always come after them and their interests. She is not a man, she is the daughter of a second son who might be Hand of the King (a title that can be given or taken away on a whim of said King) but is no lord and has no army (unlike say Margaery and Cersei who were the daughters of great lords and had the red cloaks/green cloaks in King’s Landing to protect them as well as brothers in the Kingsguard), she has no power of her own and unlike Rhaenyra she doesn’t have a dragon, she is the Queen but that is really just an honorary status because her husband is the King and it only lasts as long as Viserys is alive. She is in survival mode and it is understandable that she is going to be as ruthless as need be. For all that I support this woman’s rights and this woman’s wrongs (mostly).

* English is not my first language, please forgive my poor grammar and convoluted sentences.

#team green #team black #house of the dragon #alicent hightower #team alicent #team rhaenys #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra #alicent #aegon #targaryen #dance of the dragons #iron throne #hotd

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curi0uscreature · 27 days

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Swap Compton’s / “King of the Gulch” Story

( Written in 2023, first literature post based off a poll I did like. officially a month back. T’which thanks to the ppl who did vote for more writing stuff! )

As a man that loved animals dearly combined with his great understanding with them, he joined in on the Vet lifestyle. It was fun for a bit seeing all the different animals and getting the opportunity to help all of them! But one day on a work rush, it was extremely over the usual amount each day. And more so, overwhelming for Compton. The barking, the great amounts of concern people had for their pets, the faint yelling, and then—boom. All of it was gone!…almost all of it. And the reason for it wasn’t exactly good. The faces of concern immediately switched to anger and the faint yelling was almost louder, mixed with the sound of dialing phone numbers. It wasn’t long before Compton found himself locked up. in jail. For who knows how long honestly.

God, it felt like the entire world’s weight was on his shoulders. What kind of person would he be after he’d come out of this place? If anything he might do worse than the incident he committed before. And it certainly wasn’t like he’d knew anybody that could bail him out..it was a risky idea but it was extremely tempting. Late at night, he escaped jail making sure to leave no trace of evidence of his tracks. He stayed in in unkept places in the area he lived in and kept a low profile. Until discovering an underrated restaurant that was in dire need of a chef…They don’t know him. They don’t fear him at all. They aren’t aware of his past record and he had some good cooking knowledge in his hands…He applied. And if anything this was better than his job as vet. People were nicer and given that it was kept low, nearly nobody even recognized him! He eventually saved enough money from payment to go on vacation as well! By the time he came back, nobody recognized him either. He was no longer a famous criminal.

Not long after, a woman named Lucrecia recruited him for her research group full of powerful psychics. Out of anyone, Cassie and him became the closest of friends! Beekeeping, literature, helping each other out, they were almost inseparable! However someone none the wiser caught his eye. Otto Mentallis. Sure he was full of himself sometimes but it was slightly,,endearing in a way? Maybe even..charming. Cassie disliked him, but she was his best friend after all. Surely she wouldn’t think about him negatively over a small crush right? With this knowledge in the back of his head he’d tell her eventually. Meaning after several weeks of trying to hide it. Somewhat Surprisingly: she was very supportive for him after he opened up! Even offering to help him out when confessing. But that confession didn’t come up until it was followed by another few weeks of stalling and confidence building. He had to get it out somehow and honestly, any day now before his feelings were bottled up and tied into knots.

So one day in the lab on his occasional one-on-one research time with Otto, he expressed how he felt. Well muttering out a few mumbles at first before getting to the main point. But it checked out given: Otto felt the Same way! They started dating a few moments afterwards. And those moments soon turned into weeks, into months, and into years. By the time they even knew it, Bob and Helmut were getting engaged! It took a while for them to arrive due to prepping the most out of everybody but what matters is they were there with all of their friends. It was beautiful.

( Post “Ford-igula” )

Bob and Helmut are gone. Lucy’s lost herself—mentally. Cassie feels demotivated, all while Otto’s in a sense of denial during the opening. Sure the attention and popularity was nice in a sense but it didn’t feel…right. At all. Especially with the current situation at task. He tried to reach out to Lucy, but she immediately shunned him off. He tried beekeeping with Cassie again which helped, but only for a little while. Otto stated that he’s fine multiple times during check-in’s but it is very much clear that there was something much, much more than that underneath. It eventually lead to them splitting apart mutually. He still loved his partner dearly but he just..couldn’t stand seeing him being in denial like this.

Overtime the more he repressed his truest emotions during missions, it built up. But in a different way. Something that felt almost..physical. Mainly on his temple, but he tried to brush it off as something that’ll go anyway with rest but it increasingly got more painful because of his repressing. Once again—Boom. This time harming himself on the left side of his face. It took several days to recover properly but that might as well been his final straw. The night he was able to get back on his feet was the night he had reluctantly left to the forest. It turned into nightly beekeeping alone and interacting with friendly animals every now and then, but the animals slowly grew into crowds.

Because of his understanding with them, they were more so mad about the fact he wasn’t the owner of the gulch due to how well he treated them. But they slowly grew out of control with this ideal concept, leaving Compton with no choice in the matter. He had tend to them. He was in the deepest part of the forest where it’d probably take ages to get out and back and his vision wasn’t the best with one eye working but the other being blind. So until further notice, he’d protect this place. It’s sacred for him and his “subjects”. He now earns the title: King of the Gulch. Legend says if you manage to get in his animal kingdom, you’ll never get out.

#psychonauts 2 #psychonauts #psychonauts au #swapnauts #compton boole #fanfiction. maybe #would it count if it’s technically lore relevant #trevor.txt #long post #writing #note this was ones of my first pieces since I got back into it again I think

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lemonhemlock · 2 months

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Hey!

Relating to what @redrosesandcharmingsouls ask. Do you think that Viserys and Otto, even Daemon to extent complicated relationships extend to the fact that Jaehaerys chose Otto as his hand after Baelon died.

I always seen it as Otto was groomed in a way to be Viserys' hand. In someways they do balance out each other. And that also plays into Daemon’s relationship with Viserys. He wants to be hand, he wants that relationship that Otto has with Viserys.

Hmmmm.....

We're going to have to base the answer on book lore in this case. Show lore is going to be different because the ages are different, but these details are not provided currently and who knows if they ever will be.

But textually Jaehaerys was 67 years old in 101 AC when Baelon died, Viserys was 24 and Daemon was 20. Now, Jaehaerys was an old man and had only two more years to live, he wasn't exactly predisposed to naming a 20-year-old impulsive Daemon to become his Hand.

We don't know Otto's age exactly, but we do know Alicent was born in 88 AC, so he must have been old enough then to father her. I'm choosing the very early, very arbitrary age of 16, which would make Otto 29 years old in 101 AC. It's very unlikely he married that young, though, so he was most likely older when he became Hand. In this situation, it's very understandable why he was chosen instead of Daemon or Viserys. Whether Daemon, with his brash filtre, would interpret this as a slight or another reason to consider himself aggrieved is a different matter.

Jaehaerys did probably think that giving Otto the opportunity to gain experience as Hand would also help his preferred choice of King (Viserys) in the long run. You're also right that Daemon has probably coveted the position of Hand for quite some time. But he was still too young in 103 AC and still very chaotic, whereas Otto had proven himself to be a steady hand and adept enough at administration for Viserys to have kept him on.

What the Realm needed after settling a succession crisis was stabilisation, not further trouble. Daemon was just not the right person for that and his behaviour since Viserys became King was not indicative of someone with the potential to take on so much responsibility. He asks his brother to set aside his marriage with Rhea Royce, which is always a controversial move in any political climate, and flip-flops between several short-lived political offices: master of coin, master of laws, the City Watch. Needless to say, he was not removed from those posts because he did such a good job. In a way, you have to laugh at Daemon's insistence on becoming Hand, because he probably would have thought the post very boring and uninspiring.

#ask #notbloodraven #anti daemon targaryen #anti viserys i targaryen #jaehaerys i targaryen #otto hightower

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horizon-verizon · 1 year

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This is about the show only:

Viserys, as the King, is the patriarchy, and Rhaenyra is only able to get away with rebelling against it because Viserys lets her. Viserys expects Alicent to be a dutiful childbearing wife but let’s Rhaenyra do basically whatever she wants because he feels guilt for what he did to Aemma. And Rhaenyra is okay with that. She doesn’t care about other women suffering. She only wants to bend the rules for herself.

Instead of being angry at Viserys for marrying Alicent she is angry at Alicent, who had no choice. Alicent has been maritally raped by Viserys for years. She dutifully bore him three sons and daughter. They even all have the Targaryen look and ride dragons. She did her duty, and he still doesn’t give a shit about his kids with her and clearly favors Rhaenyra. Still, Alicent took care of Viserys for years when she could have just let him rot. She may not love him romantically but she clearly cares about him, despite what he did to her.

Alicent has been a saint, because if I were her I would have poisoned both Daemon and Rhaenyra and also Viserys to protect my children. Alicent, as a victim of Viserys has every right to advocate for her children and put them first. She has every right to want Aegon to be king, not because she’s some woman hater like y’all think, but because she’s simply a mother who wants to protect her children and frankly deserves to have her bloodline on the throne after everything she went through.

She doesn’t even want Rhaenyra dead, she still cares for her despite everything. Alicent isn’t perfect but neither is Rhaenyra. You can support and root for Rhaenyra while acknowledging that Alicent does have a point and that the story is not black and white. I understand why Rhaenyra wants the throne but I also understand why Alicent thinks crowning Aegon is necessary.

Special Note: Since the show's world is the same as the ASoIaF canon's, the cultural, legal, and political laws and situations and contexts I will bring up are all valid. Plus, I've made several posts as to how this show is garbage in terms of writing and characterizations & basic consistency. This post will put that aside (for the most part) to be Watsonian.

*EDITED POST* (4/7/24)

Can you do something for me, anon? Point out to me a single scene or family that is actively preparing to usurp Rhaenyra before any of the greens did. We see Borros shout at Lucerys, but did you actually see him with troops and supplies stored places in preparation to usurp Rhaenyra BEFORE Aemond arrived?

Alicent's kids were always safe. You, like her, took Otto's words for granted, and for why?

I explain how Otto and Alicent were wrong about the lords rebelling (w/o green interference) all in my points below.

Let's take a breath. Imagine what having a female Queen Regnant--not just a Queen Consort, Queen Dowager, or Queen Mother--would do for any other woman seeking power in a male-dominated society that frequently abuses its own women from noblemen to common blacksmiths (Megelle).

There is now a precedent (since people shout "what about precedent?!") of a female leader. Such that would socially justify and legitimize further other female claimants of noble seats across the realm.

Jeyne Arryn is an example of a woman who would have benefitted even more from Rhaenyra ruling, even w/o Rhaenyra being Aemma's daughter and thus Jeyne's cousin. Her rule of the Fingers, Vales, etc. would have had much more confidence and power than if Rhaenyra hadn't had an unencumbered reign as a woman in her own right.

("The Blacks and the Greens") -- the greens looking over list of those who could support them:

("A Son for a Son") -- Jeyne's reasoning for supporting Rhaenyra:

But because Rhaenyra not ruling, what happens? For years, women/girls like Arianne Martell, Sansa and Seren Stark, and Jeyne Poole (Arya Stark, if she hadn't gotten out) are even more abused--physically and emotionally--by power-seeking/misogynist men.

You bleat about how Alicent is abused. Well, by her participation and actions in usurping Rhaenyra, she made life worse for all women in Westeros. Because the idea that women should not be leaders and that men should always have power over them became stronger (posts and reblogs by brideoffires).

If Rhaenyra had been allowed to rule, would any of what happened (during the Dance) to the common-born or any noble person in and out of King's Landing have happened? NO!

Rhaenyra had been heir for at least 12-13 years in the show and Lord Caswell was killed for trying to escape and alert her. I'll bring up the book once here just so my point is supported: those oaths that Viserys had the lords make for Rhaenyra? Most followed through and supported her throughout the actual war...that the greens started. Many of them enthusiastically did so. (Frey, Blackwood, the Arynns/Jeyne Arryn). Even a Stark, Cregan, kept fighting for her.

And a quick note: Also, do you know another person who plunged Westeros into war based on their anger at a handful of people for merely personal AND unjustified reasons (I will explain how Alicent is unjustified to be against Rhaenyra way below)? Aegon IV against Naerys and Aemon for their possible affair and Naerys birthing Aemon's child. It was said that Aegon believed Daeron, his official son, to be the bastard son of his siblings Aemon and Naerys.

In this case, Aegon IV was the type to prefer everyone suffering if he had no control, instead of doing as Viserys I did (if it was true or not, that part really doesn't matter politically) and kept hypothetical non-bio-son as his protected heir. I say "protected" because by naming all his bastards legitimate on his deathbed, Aegon IV endangered Daeron II's body and claim.

Yet this show will have us think that Alicent thinks always or mostly in the favor of "the realm" and unselfishly. And a huge reason why I that Alicent presents as "unselfish" more than hypocritical by the show's wriitng rather than her own hypocrisy is because Rhaenys--the resident supposed "wise" woman--has named Alicent as "wise" depsite immediately following that up with Alicent only making "windows" in the "prison" their patriarchal system shoves her into.

Another way is the effect of the Nymeria page she sends to Rhaenyra to try to dissuade her from war and just accept Aegon's rule...reminder, this page is of a woman nonDornish Westerosi would think a woman abnormal for her being a ruler onto herself AND Nymeria was a woman who while had to flee her past home and war with many lords for her people to survive....like Rhaenyra in this situation, aso had to fight wars (even when they were of conquest) to ensure her people's survival. She changed Dorne not for any noble reason, but for necessary self-oriented reasons of survival. And she's remembered as one of the most influential, important figures of Westerosi history, having created an entire different and lasting society in Dorne. Nymeria being framed as abnormal or cautionary--like Rhaenyra & Alicent have been in the in-world document of Fire & Blood--is par for the course and if Alicent was trying to be cautionary to Rhaenyra through the cautionary example of Nymeria, it would make sense for Alicent to do that. But it doesn't, really for Rhaenyra to fully & sincerely accept that line of persuasion. In other words, we shouldn't be validating--if what I said abt Alicent trying to use Nymeria as a cautionary note to Rhaenyra and not something like "remember when we used to be friends?!" way--and saying her reasons AND her way of ending a war are justifed or good...because she's still stealing something, one of the only things Rhaenyra has had that a man is allowed in this world.

MOST of the Westersi lords were in support of her and her "bastard" son Jacaerys. There were no real, substantive pushback or material war preparations against her for a real rebellion. Helaena was safe to marry Jaecaerys and become Queen herself, but Alicent refused why exactly? Because Jaecaerys was, to her, a bastard unworthy of her daughter...

AND because she was still angry with Rhaenyra for...what exactly? Because Rhaenyra lied about "losing her virginity"?

Why does this matter to Alicent, when it is the fault of her father for making this public news? Why couldn't this be kept secret, as all the other times a noble girl/woman has had affairs and bastard children? (I get into real-life scenarios of kings actually allowing their wives to birth bastards and have lovers way below). Hint: Otto wants Rhaenyra to be replaced above him doing his "duty" to Viserys and actually being a good Hand. To pretend otherwise is a delusion.

Let's review the context of Rhaenyra's lying to Alicent (scroll down to "The Context of Rhaenyra’s Lie in Episode 4").

You: "Viserys, as the King, is the patriarchy, and Rhaenyra is only able to get away with rebelling against it because Viserys lets her."

Did you witness episode 6, where Alicent nearly lead most of the council meeting while Viserys sat close to her?

We are meant to understand that over the years, Viserys lets Alicent do more and more. He also allows her to demand Rhaenyra's children be brought before her every time they were birthed or not long afterward, knowing that Alicent wants him to call them bastards and declare them as such.

Customarily, Queen Consorts don't sit in councils unless their husbands allow it. Otherwise, they aren't included. Alysanne was involved because Jaehaerys allowed it.

But do you hear of any Queen Consorts joining the council After the Dance? Was Naerys involved when Aegon IV ruled? What about Daenaera and Aegon III? Shaera and Jaehaerys II? What about Rhaella and Aerys II? Cersei and Robert?

No, again, it is after the Dance that women are customarily excluded from substantive politics even as a Queen Consort. (Queen Dowagers or Mothers do not count because the king is usually their son/stepson who is either too weak to rule independently or officially too young like Alyssa Velaryon was for Jaehaerys).

You need to remember that Alicent is trying to force Viserys' hand and reveal the boys' parentage to everyone so her own sons get support, knowing he did not want this, knowing that he is king.

Like Rhaenyra pointed out about Otto tailing her, questioning the heir/princess about their business and especially the parentage of their kids is treasonous (without concrete proof, and honestly she has none because one can never prove another's parentage at this point in history AND they had room to claim that the boys could very well have inherited darker features from their Baratheon kin).

In this light, we can say Alicent acts "treasonously". Yet Viserys lets her get away with it instead of putting his foot down. Doesn't really matter that he was ill and rotting, he was able to muster the strength later when he was sicker so that anyone who questioned Rhaenyra would not be left alone to live. Why couldn't he do this earlier, when he was healthier and stronger?

Yes, Viserys ignored her about the Velaryon boys...what did you expect him to do, renounce and abandon his daughter just because she birthed kids, not Laenor's? And make Corlys' ire worse? The guy who WANTS Luke to inherit Driftmark? Not only that, ruin his daughter and the house's images more than if he did as he did and allowed them to be legitimate? Then wouldn't Viserys be a worse father? Alicent was suggesting trash "advice" on that, both politically and personally.

So really, it seems you want him to be evil to Rhaenyra alone, rather than actual fairness.

I don't think you watched episode 4 well.

I agree that HotD!Young Rhaenyra is freer than Jaehaerys I's daughters of the book. But what Viserys gives Rhaenyra is actually not much choice or room at all. unlike Jaehaerys' daughters, who have both parents one of whose problems were that there were too many children,

Rhaenyra's mother's death by Viserys mission to get a son AND her immediately being named his heir gave her new unique anxieties and burdens.

Her distance and rebuttals are all results of Viserys taking her friend as a wife and breaking one of those few bonds left to her. Because you can't be your stepmother's/Queen Consort best friend when she will birth other competitors (at this point, show!Rhaenyra was in deep doubt).

In that episode, we see how much choice he actually gives Rhaenyra:

Not letting her speak, not working with her to shut down Otto

dismissing her concerns about Otto until she gave him an ultimatum, which only seemed to work because he already suspected or disliked Otto

Not considering how it would rather benefit her claim to marry her uncle, as was the point of all those incestuous marriages between cousins and siblings and uncle-niece/aunt-nephew both in Valyria and Andal/FM Westeros.

*not in the episode, but still a part of this* marries her only friend, knowing that she is literally her only friend, all so he can avoid marrying another younger girl and have his cake/eat it too--attracted...knowing that they would never be the same again

He wanted obedience, anon. "You are my political headache!" Meanwhile he doesn't see how it would be politically better for her to marry Daemon.

Laenor is gay. We already know that he and Rhaenyra tried but nothing came of it. There were never going to be any kids from that union.

What did you expect Rhaenyra to do exactly? Rape Laenor? Get a Lysene sex slave to impregnate her? You'd be the first to call her terrible for either of these.

Not have kids? That is even worse than not birthing her husband's children. For someone like her, the heir to the throne, to be called "barren" and unable to produce heirs herself. A thing Otto can use against her and promote Aegon the Elder as heir, which would give Otto more power over Rhaenyra.

Find another Valyrian-descent-male noble or blonde guy? And what guarantee do we have that he wouldn't try to take advantage of Rhaenyra though his blood link to any children he would sire and endanger her--plus those kids'--lives and reputations and positions?! We see how men in Westeros and beyond reach for power through even those children they do love...Rhaenyra was with Harwin bc he didn't demand anything of her nor looed for advancement through their kids. He was there just for her.

Do you want that, maybe because you already have a deep hatred for Rhaenyra that is irrational?

Viserys got Rhaenyra into the mess that she was in with Laenor for his own ends and by his own cowardly need to have Alicent/someone that he thinks he chose as freely.

He is not only responsible for Alicent's misery but Rhaenyra and Laenor's as well. He also was responsible for Rhaenyra having to have kids whose parentage would always be doubted since it was an open secret that Laenor was gay.

Again, what do you think Rhaenyra was supposed to do? Demand an annulment and risk insulting the already ruffled Corlys? We already saw how Viserys was determined to have her marry Laenor to ensure a Velaryon alliance and smooth over his rejection of Laena. Do you really think that she could have done much there, when she already depends on Viserys for the said inheritance for the throne, as you have stated WHILE battling her other feelings of grief, anger, etc.?

So no, Viserys doesn't give her much choice or many allowances.

In real-life medieval, Tudor, and early modern history, kings, lords, etc, there are many examples of husbands and fathers (latter less occurring) actively encouraging or allowing their wives, daughters, etc to have their own lovers or even children with said lover that the husband then names as his own.

Whether because:

the lover is an accomplished politician who takes the burden of rule off of him

wanted to stay married to said wife because of her dowry, other inheritances, or political connections

because the husband is infertile

because the husband is gay and unable to impregnate his wife

or because they already have kids and the king/lord/husband/etc do not want to jeopardize or draw suspicion of their kid's legitimacy -- better to claim all than to risk some

Sometimes it is even the court and territory's nobles and courtiers who want the queen/lady/wife to have lovers and children outside of her legal marriage just for the heirs, to avoid the madness of said king/husband, or to obtain a more competent politician/commander. The open secret if you will.

This means that Viserys sees many benefits in Rhaenyra having any sort of kids, which explains how he was willing to claim her sons as legitimate. I also have to remind you that Corlys also accepted these boys because he also wanted an heir.

Yes, Viserys loved his daughter in some capacity and wanted to protect her, but we can't ignore the political benefits that come with her having children within the cover of a legal marriage to a gay man.

In this way, Rhaenyra is further trapped in marriage, popping out sons and kids that while she comes to love, are also there to be heirs for another man. Does this sound familiar?

You should take read of Eleanor Harman's Sex with the Queen to learn more. Here's an excerpt:

With regard to royal children, the only consideration more important than their kingly blood was the monarch’s self-interest. Many kings acknowledged children they knew had been fathered by someone else. Often, kings did not want to cast doubt on the paternity of older children they knew to be their own. In the case where the king could not father children, sometimes court factions heartily desired the queen to bear bastards in order to stabilize the throne and cement their own interests.

Fortunately, the queen’s complete and utter disillusionment with her husband usually set in after the birth of the heir. And so it was not deemed worthwhile to lose international prestige, throw the nation into tumult, and question the paternity of all royal children, simply to deny the one cuckoo in the robin’s nest. In the early nineteenth century, the last son of King John VI and Queen Carlota Joaquina of Portugal was extremely good-looking and slender - unlike either of his parents - and happened to be the spitting image of the handsome gardener at the queen’s country retreat. Other than a few snickers behind painted fans, no one said a word.

You: "Viserys expects Alicent to be a dutiful childbearing wife but let’s Rhaenyra do basically whatever she wants because he feels guilt for what he did to Aemma. And Rhaenyra is okay with that. She doesn’t care about other women suffering. She only wants to bend the rules for herself."

Already explained the little-to-no choice for Rhaenyra aspect.

Yes, Viserys does expect Alicent to do this, because, unlike Rhaenyra, Alicent is not facing 10% of usurpation or pushback that Rhaenyra--as heir--would/could.

She is Queen Consort, not soon-to-be-present Queen Regnant. Alicent is not his heir. She is his wife and the person who bears him other children, his "spares". Unfortunately, that is the way of feudal, monarchial patriarchy. Of which Alicent wants to use it for herself and uses it to judge/make Rhaenyra seem unfit...the very system and principles that oppress her, Alicent.

This does not mean Alicent had no right to pursue power for herself by principle, even though I want Rhaenyra. Show!Alicent, however, lives to give up power for conformity's sake in comparison.

And Viserys should be held accountable for sleeping with a teen girl who clearly didn't approach him with full willingness. And if not Alicent, it would have been any other girl or woman. Because girls are socially eligible to become wives as soon as they get their periods in Westeros, even if the practice is that parents and guardians usually wait until the girl is in her later teens (16-19). That's a societal problem that both he and Otto can and did take advantage of.

But again, anon, what exactly did you expect Rhaenyra to do? The girl was also 15, like Alicent!!!!

You seem to give the mantle of responsibility if Alicent's suffering to her. I said this already in another post, but Rhaenyra just lost her mother a few months earlier (something Alicent has experienced) and she has taken to her duties as heir. Alicent is the one who was more available for her than she was to Alicent. Can Rhaenyra read minds, now? Why didn't Alicent let Rhaenyra at least know that Otto was forcing her to do this? That, at least, was within Alicent's power.

What is Rhaenyra supposed to have done when Viserys and Alicent both explicitly told each other (episode 2) they'd keep their meetings secret from Rhaenyra, thus keeping Rhaenyra totally out and in the dark whilst she was mentally preoccupied?

NOTE: I want to clarify that I don't think Rhaenyra would necessarily become Alicent's savior and stop Viserys from choosing her and use chess moves against Otto, or that Alicent should have thought Rhaenyra would 100% deliver her from this situation. Rhaenyra may or may not have been at least able to bring them together to think of how they could Viserys to know of Otto's plans, but that is not the point I make when I compare Alicent and Rhaenyra during this time. Alicent seems to have lived her entire life pressured into suppressing her desires for the sake of obeying her overbearing father, and it would be terribly hard to overcome that and see through those teachings instilled in you. But just by these statements alone, Rhaenyra proves to not be her actual enemy nor the cause of her suffering.

I could flip it around: If we say they were truly friends, why not say something--if we presume that they always talked about Otto's suffocating expectations of Alicent and their supposed many years of close friendship? The show--by not letting us see how they actually related their relationship with their families to each other (the jump cuts and lack of any flashbacks)--refused to allow us to better qualify the character of their communication habits. (I already answered this in the paragraph above). How close were they really? We only get their relationship through the lens of Rhaenyra's family's succession crisis. Before the events of episode 1, did these two girls tell each other a lot of things that they wouldn't tell others, and I mean the most private things--or do they hold those back and why? Would Alicent tell Rhaenyra about her father sometimes drunkenly bemoan her mother's passing if Otto did that? Would Rhaenyra tell Alicent any of her crushes? Would she tell her what she thought about the Faith, and if so, where did she stop if ever? Either way, with what is presented on-screen, the onus of their relationship did not/does not rest fully on Rhaenyra, esp when she didn't even know and could not spare time or thought to Alicent while going through shit herself.

So it doesn't look like Alicent gave Rhaenyra much of a choice either, to even attempt to help her out or give room to process information and respond, choosing to keep it close to her chest. Maybe to not lose her friendship sooner than she liked, it being due to obedience to her father and Viserys keeping it secret, or afraid of Rhaenyra not believing that she wasn't being overly ambitious and disrespectful towards Aemma's memory, etc. Once again, the point is that Rhaenyra had less ability to anticipate all this happening, so there needed to be just one person who told her all this. And in friendships & any relationship, one has to know when the ball is in their court, and in this instance, it was Alicent and Viserys. But both chose to keep Rhaenyra out of the loop completely until the last minute bc neither wanted to deal with what they both knew would be very hurt & angry feelings from her.

Meanwhile, before Viserys announced his marriage, Rhaenyra was actually being very helpful and "obedient", performing her tasks/duties. If you think ignoring Otto and choosing a capable fighter, specifically saying that "my father needs a worthy fighter with experience" and choosing Criston is her not following the rules or thinking of Viserys, you'd be dead wrong. This also goes for her suggesting they use dragonriders to join Corlys in the Stepstones, to which, once again, Viserys refuses and makes her look dumb, all because it was an interruption in "adult", manly matters. (Yes he allows her on the council later, but first events matter and he allowed a bad image to be made that day of her. Stupid of him.)

Finally, Rhaenyra is ranked lower than Viserys, THE KING, despite being his daughter. It appears you want some grand gesture or a big power play from Rhaenyra to protect Alicent from soemthing she doesn't even know is happening. What would you want her to do? To repeat myself, demand an annulment or a cancellation after it's already been announced? Again, if she had known prior, maybe something could be done and she could persuade him otherwise, but we'll never know, will we? And risk insulting Corlys? Again?!

So really, you should be angry at Otto and Viserys more than anyone. They are the ones with the power to put Alicent into the position that she is in. That's the patriarchy talking. That's not Rhaenyra's doing.

As for Rhaenyra's anger:

mother just died

Alicent's silence/keeping such secrets from her

Viserys' public dismissals

feeling some self-hate and disappointment for not having a male's value in her society

If you are going to advocate for Alicent finding fault in Rhaenyra's ability to find holes in the patriarchal mold made for her, we should keep in mind that Rhaenyra was deliberately kept out of even knowing what would happen to her and what she'd be up against later on in the first place. Would this not sting at least? Especially after she's told Alicent, presumably, about her fears for Aemma, her disappointment in Viserys' disregard for her before Aemma died, and her fears of being discarded once a male child arrives? All those years of friendship and thinking Alicent would tell her such important information? If we can forgive Alicent for thinking Rhaenyra would literally kill her kids or endanger them bc she fears her father and believes everything from him, why can't we "forgive" or cut Rhaenyra some slack for being angry that her best friend didn't tell her anything that could determine her future?!

When you've been doubted and sidelined all your life, it would take a lot of ability to compartmentalize (certainly more than anyone in this show has) to see past the nail in the coffin before it came down, which is not necessarily a good thing bc you risk repressing too much of your own emotions and thus debilitate yourself from making more rational decisions or debilitate your own ability to process information and get to conclusions as fast as you could.

Honestly, both girls are beleaguered and have much in common in terms of suffering from patriarchal authorities. Both are forced to have children for the sake of politics, one sexually abused and denied sexual exploration alrogwthwr before she hit 18, and the other totally shut down in any participation in politics as well as trapped in a position more vulnerable to others machinations if she hadn't had kids.

Their fathers both are the ones truly trifling.

You: "Alicent has been maritally raped by Viserys for years. She dutifully bore him three sons and daughter. They even all have the Targaryen look and ride dragons. She did her duty, and he still doesn’t give a shit about his kids with her and clearly favors Rhaenyra. Still, Alicent took care of Viserys for years when she could have just let him rot. She may not love him romantically but she clearly cares about him, despite what he did to her."

I wrote a post about feudalism, Queen Consorts, spares, etc for Alicent and Viserys, and the claim that just because she birthed him, children, doesn't mean he customarily owes her anything, much less making her kids heirs. Because this show's world still has the same sexist circumstances, same as what I said there for the show.

Anon, it's misogynist to go "Alicent did her duty by bearing four 'obvious' Targ children" when Rhaenyra's kids also ride dragons while not looking "typically" Targaryen.

You're saying that Alicent's kids are "worth" more than Rhaenyra's because she was a good girl and birthed heirs. You also fell for the court idea of "trueness" being "obvious" in appearance--blood purity.

Finally, are Alicent and Rhaenyra only worth their wombs, now? Is that what you want from your (assumed) fav, to just be a pawn spawning out "true" heirs for her father to take advantage of? Whose fault is it that Alicent is put into her position? Viserys is obviously partially at fault for choosing her at all, but who put her there? Otto. For purely selfish reasons. Why are you so devoted to hating a girl for mourning and being busy, whilst the true perpetrator of Alicent's suffering is Otto?

Why do you think that suffering for doing your "job" of being a baby factory and enduring marital rape = having "good morals"?

*Disclaimer*: I do recognize how show!Alicent was sexually abused, as she was obviously unwilling.

My point is that why does sexual abuse have to be or is a requisite for respect and a tool of exchange for power? Why is it characterized as a thing that Alicent "let" happen to her, instead of just socially forced onto her? You do this when you argue that she "did her duty" and consented to give Viserys children without it being a problem about how Otto put her there in the first place, a place where she had little to no options. You don't mention this.

Children trump wives/husbands/spouses/SOs, as you argued that Alicent's love for her kids trumps whatever she feels towards any hypothetical husband/Viserys.

Why are we asking him to emotionally abandon Rhaenyra altogether for Alicent's kids? Romantic love is a nonfactor. Romance doesn't get top priority when we're talking politics, nor is it always or should be the final authority on who gets more favor. I mean, if we're talking about the characters only, Rhaenyra is Viserys' daughter. You're revealing that you'd prefer if Viserys gave his political favor to his wife over his daughter, which is pretty crazy considering that Rhaenyra is his heir and his eldest child, the child he's known and emotionally engaged with far longer than he's known Alicent. And this is coming from a person who agrees wholeheartedly that he was a terrible dad to any/all of his kids in different ways but was worse towards the green kids with his comparative neglect.

While it's fair to say Viserys should pay more attention to his other kids, I don't think that's all you want. I think that you want him to just name Aegon heir, that he can only express true love for his other kids by giving the heir title to Aegon and removing Rhaenyra. Because you think that the throne is Aegon's birthright. And you think it is his birthright just because he has a penis and Andal male-preferred primogeniture exists. Meanwhile, if you go through Westerosi history and read carefully, you will see that while girls are not as preferred to boys, you will see examples of girls leading houses even with male relatives available. Jeyne Arryn is one, who had male cousins and uncles by no brothers after they and her father died. You may counterargue and say either Jeyne had to take power to have it and/or that in Westerosi tradition the girl can only inherit if she has no nuclear-male relatives, and you would be correct.

Problem there is that you would be defending a patriarchal setback for women, and are therefore misogynist because you do not want women to have real autonomy. Autonomy is the power of self (it's in the word). Power that comes from and is practiced from the self, exists by itself and is generated from the self. It is the ability to make decisions for one's self, by oneself, as far from others' always-biased-and-never-fully-understanding-of-you's perspectives or abilities. More substantial power is not when a woman/girl only gets power when all other male options are unavailable, is that actual autonomous power or a pure autonomous claim the same as a man's? No.

So if you, anon, are upset with the idea that a woman seeks power for herself or ways to shape her life how she wants it without a man or man-lead/filled/prioritized institution making decisions against her, then you yourself prove to be misogynist and hateful of women seeking autonomy.

What about when she grows older? Do you suggest that Alicent remains powerless then? Again, what I pointed out about Viserys letting her have a lot of power for years from episode 6. You should be troubled by how it's told how the Queen consort's only true job is to be a fertile womb, not congratulating her fertility under this context. Why is passive "power" the only power you want to afford a woman?

Once again, Alicent is Queen Consort. Not a Queen Regnant as Rhaenyra would have been.

After Viserys gives her that power and she gains much more in episode 8 in his illness, she is the next in the show's hierarchy/authority, as we saw by her giving orders to the Kingsguard. At least next to the King's Hand. She is also in charge of the running of the castle in that she dismisses servants and makes sure that whoever is in charge of collecting and organizing accounts of food, supplies, etc. (usually a castellan or a steward). Servants including those who dress and take the king's piss/poop out. Those who are literally close to Viserys. We see it in episode 3, where Alicent sends the servants away and cleans Viserys herself.

She has more influence or power than she or some fans think bc she is closest to the King. Not official policy-making, law-making, war-waging power, but a lot of social court power. Power that does not come from Otto.

In Westeros, it appears the heir officially outranks the Queen Consort because we haven't seen a Consort boss around the heir on their rank alone [a parent can do do with a child, but what about if the Consort isn't the parent of that child?] but in the show, they try to reverse that in episode 6. This doesn't track at all unless the writers do what they should have done and show accumulations of moments where Alicent gains more unofficial power as Viserys deteriorates and lets her go off to the races OR/AND she more and more gets him to feel that he needs to give her such power. Queen Consorts don't sit at council with the King, once more, it's a privilege granted to them and is actually an anomaly. Therefore, it would have been that much more meaningful to show how Alicent got where she got in at least 3 episodes preceding what we get in episode 6, even though it still wouldn't b match what happens in the original story. This is an example of the writers creating a new lore point but not sticking to their own invention or being logically consistent abt it.

Yes, her main and defining "job" -- by those patriarchal more she herself is trying to enforce -- is to give Viserys children and be the model of female chastity that Andal tradition dictates to her (alms, faith to the Faith, only having sex with Viserys). Plus run/oversee the royal inner household (its resources [ex. food] & the royal offspring), and possibly arrange marriages. She is even expected to bear with her husband's bullshit because he is her husband and she is a woman. (You'd be surprised at what Queen Consorts had to put up with in real-life history.) But she is not completely helpless & she doesn't have 0 agency. She just doesn't have any imagination and is resentful of Rhaenyra instead of the real perpetrators. Mostly because her imagination or independent thinking has been stifled by her social role as a female noble.

No, she could not have let Viserys rot with no (at the very least) supervision because that would put a social mark against her and her public image as a merciful Queen--the customary standard for a Queen--and be seen as her neglecting her husband. And Alicent had no intention of inviting that sort of censure. I recognize that she grew to have some sort of care for Viserys enough to be upset at his suffering and death, but that is something that is unequally expected of her as a wife and Queen Consort. the pressure is more on her to fulfill her duties to her husband than it is on Viserys to his wife, and he does not have the same duties as her, thus less pressure. He can take a mistress all he wants if he's adamant or sexually seeking enough. This is a world that is harsher and more expectant on the wife than the husband, even placing conditions of legal treachery into the mix. What do you expect as a "reward"? You don't get power or respect by complying or submitting to already oppressive systems/individuals' oppressive actions. Do you think that if you are a "good girl", you get to be happy and safe and compensated? That's not how hierarchies work. As a commentator below states. No, you get crumbs that you are taught to "enjoy" or have no other choice but to swallow.

So, it is not black-and-white "pure" & "free" devotion that she just wanted to take care of Viserys. She's also motivated by what she thinks she has to do to be a good woman/Queen/wife, which is all patriarchal bullshit. She thinks she has to be so accommodating towards Viserys because she knows that is her feudalist role as a Queen/woman/wife and that that will somehow give her peace. She thinks being perfectly chaste and caring will bring her some sort of satisfaction with how her life turned out, but suppresses her anger and probable feelings of shame that she seems to ignore.

Shame for having been spent to Viserys at all while having been above reproach before then (there should have been court gossip, but that's another thing).

Shame or guilt for not letting Rhaenyra know.

Shame for replacing her friend's mother when she listened to her speak about her family drama AND lost her mother herself.

All works as a paradox for living as a Queen Consort.

It is by Andal tradition (not Valyrian) that the husband has nearly full power over his wife's life and that a wife obeys her husband. Rhaenyra is Viserys' eldest and Alicent gave birth to Viserys' "spares", which by the Widow's Law, we very well can make a strong case for how these kids do not go before Rhaenyra in the line of succession:

To rectify these ills, in 52 AC King Jaehaerys implemented the Widow’s Law, reaffirming the right of the eldest son (or daughter, where there was no son) to inherit, but requiring said heirs to maintain surviving widows in the same conditions they enjoyed before their husband’s death. A lord’s widow, be she a second, third or fourth wife, could no longer be driven from his castle, nor deprived of her servants, clothing, and income. The same law also forbade a man to disinherit the children by a first wife in order to bestow their lands, seat or property on a later wife or her children.

Rhaenyra can use this law to argue -- not that she should be put on trial, she's made heir by her father and since it was his will/word that's the definite LAW -- and strengthen her monarch-given right to ascend.

Your wife/Queen Consort can be good to you all she is. If you, the king, say that the heir is a specific person, they are that person regardless of who his wife is or how dutiful she is. State matters can and have been influenced through marriages and interpersonal care, but it can just as well not be because it all depends on the king's/monarch's disposition and the political context. That was the risk Otto took and used his own daughter to try and manipulate. Not Rhaenyra's fault at all.

That Alicent failed to see that until the 9th episode (the show itself, for all its flaws, is telling you this, anon!) shows how intelligent/narrow-minded/unrighteous Alicent has been from the time she set herself against Rhaenyra in their conversation of episode 4. And even before, when she never told Rhaenyra Otto's instructions to her and for years pushed that burden of responsibility on Rhaenyra..

When she's yelling about "having one child like that", she's referring to children born out of wedlock to a girl who doesn't act within her patriarchal sexual restrictions. Said restrictions are that women/girls should expect to only sleep with the man/boy their authority figure designates for them while their husband sleeps around and fathers bastards indiscriminately.

So, yeah, Alicent is a misogynist towards Rhaenyra.

You: "She doesn’t even want Rhaenyra dead, she still cares for her despite everything. Alicent isn’t perfect but neither is Rhaenyra."

Anon, you really don't get human psychology. A parent's love and care for their kids is such a visceral thing.

How is it in any way feasible that 8th episode-Alicent's behavior is realistic or consistent with how real people behave toward what they think is a threat to their kids? It doesn't make any sense how Alicent changed her tune after Rhaenyra apologized in episode 8. By:

calling Rhaenyra's sons bastards, endangering them all (whether by social shaming/ostracism [which can and has caused mental deterioration in human history], exile, or actual execution)

humiliating Rhaenyra by demanding that Joffrey be brought to her right after Rhaenyra birthed him to show the entire court that she doubts his parentage

by dismissing all her concerns and demands to deal with the Stepstones problem in a much more substantive way than just leaving it up to Daemon to stave off the Triarchy

There was no coming back from the years Alicent spent antagonizing Rhaenyra. She herself broke that connection based on false notions. Alicent has shown malice before episode 8. HERE is my past post about how Show! or Book!Alicent was never going to be a woman I rooted for when a possible Queen Regnant was available.

Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and has always been so. Therefore, what Alicent was doing was usurping her.

...Usurping means killing people 80% of the time (an arbitrary number, but you should get it). And of the two sides, the greens were the group who'd be more willing to carry out unprovoked assassinations (Aegon after Jaehaerys' death [book, who knows if the show will include this], Aemond killing Lucerys, all the ploys Otto made behind Viserys' back, Aemond firing on the riverlands and killing all the Strongs, etc.)

To quote a lot of green stans and flip it: looking back in real history, people killed for thrones and power more often than they did in imprisonment, and even with imprisonment, it's usually not long before the person mysteriously dies in prison. Know your history and upgrade your understanding of human behavior and motivation. If any person who seeks to usurp someone else truly-duly thinks they can do so without killing them or having one of their supporters kill them (unprovoked), they are delusional. Or at least if you use this argument for why Alicent should act as she did, why isn't this the same for Rhaenyra/the blacks' end?!!

As I've said, Rhaenyra had several supporters who even fought for her after she died.

Watching episode 9, how could you think that Alicent actually had any influence and power over Otto and the councilors, who plotted behind her back to kill Rhaenyra? That she had to give her feet up for Larys to masturbate to in order to just get verbal info? (This is all after Viserys dies, so do not try to use me saying she had power under Viserys above when she loses much power after he dies, which is my point and which HotD exaggerates).

She couldn't use her brain to figure out Otto was behind her suffering all along? Until episode 9?

Show!Alicent never claimed power, so she was in a worse state than book!Alicent was. Your fave is an eroticized doormat for the male gaze (xenonwitch's reblog), not a powerful, self-driven woman.

Their friendship never made sense anyway. From a Doylist standpoint. And show!Alicent herself is a terribly constructed character; Rhaenicent doesn't make sense (article in Polygon).

Sure, Viserys supposedly treats Rhaenyra well and lets her get away with a lot of behavior that these other fathers of ASoIaF would never, BUT he also doesn't:

[book & show] give her enough political training, or equal to that of an male heir--though he does makes her his cupbearer and allows her to sit in council to hear said council (passive learning), he does seem to properly engage, quiz, test, etc. her in decision-making for economic, political, etc. stuff; he does not seem to ever ask for her opinions of certain laws or policies, existing or currently considered; he does not let her make many decisions without lecturing her or ignoring her in front of others (episode 3 with her suggestion about taking dragons to meet Daemon); NOR does he get some sort of tutor through some sort of training, military-wise--likely strategy, not actual combat training (a tutor even from Essos, there would have been many businesspeople and wealthy business families available and eager to work for the royal Targaryens)--that Dany in the main series had to herself must learn and continue from her earlier exilic education on the go. Rhaenyra herself must learn most of what she knows by herself when she heads to Dragonstone! If you can give your heir/child the material to help advance their understanding of certain things even in ordinary education, why are you holding back for this specific instance when the stakes are higher?!

[book & show] he does not firmly, properly, and publicly denounce Alicent's harassment and accusations

[book & show] make one or more of her sons his cupbearer/transition him into being a part of the council as well

[book & show] he does not try to prevent other's talk of Rhaenyra's sons until much later when it is way too late

[show] he doesn't question Alicent's asking for baby Joff at all or pursue why Rhaenyra was even there and bleeding apart from how she shouldn't be there--he quickly moves on, too

[show] In the book, he does send her on a "meet-and-greet" tour or "progress" of the realm to: put a face to the woman in her oath-bound lords/houses' minds -> amplify her "Realm's Delight" image, and reinforce her attractiveness/desirability/sexual purity -> make her more real and appealing. Show!Viserys sends her out on a point-blank marriage-tour where she hears marriage suits after her. The book version explicitly has Viserys/his council at least make Rhaenyra meet her subjects and hear their desires, concerns, and what they think of her. There is less of the kind of formality and distance than what the sho made in changing it into a straight-up marriage tour, so the ladies and lords seeing Rhaenyra for the first time only get to see her under the more stressful (for them as well as for her) and less emotionally engaging context of a mere business exchange. Also, Laenor was always both show!andbook!Viserys' final choice for Rhaenyra. Book!Viserys is just a little bit smarter and more careful than show!Viserys.

Viserys is better than most Westerosi men in how he treats Rhaenyra--book and show--, at least those fathers we get to hear about or get to know. Better, but not still not enough to meet the demands of his daughter's actual needs.

(8/21/23):

THIS is a great post by mononijikayu about medieval queens, female rulers, the history of how women in leadership positions were made and seen as threats to the very structure of social “order”, and contextualizing Rhaenyra thru Empress Matilda. I didn’t even know about Matilda’s husband being comparable to Rhaneyra’s Daemon! PLZ READ!!!!

Excerpt:

just as much, along with these fictitious portrayals, more lies are depicted. these women are considered vixens that cause havoc to men by shifting them into desires and danger. through the written word, we see how women are cast in roles of villains in men’s lives. it is because by their conclusive thoughts, women are the only creatures that are able to turn ‘good honorable men’ into despicable creatures who do shameful, deplorable acts for the sake of women’s pleasures. […] it is within this narrative that ancient chroniclers declare that women were in fact the doom of men. if they were not able to control the dangers posed by the wiles of women, then the foundations of the mighty society they had built would be up in flames. [...] as i mentioned, these factors of community are written down and preserved. and with that, the example of the ancients were the foundations by which medieval society built itself. the same concepts continued to cause the same issue within society and that was the exclusion of women from participating in the bigger picture of community and state, much so with governing states in their own right—without judgment or disapproval.

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hezuart · 8 months

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Now that all Chapters for The Sounds of Nightmares have come out, what do you think of it, the characters, the new lore it has given the series & how has this changed some of your views on the characters & world?

It's a cute story, an alternate take on the overall series, but I don't consider it canon to the LN series. The lore from the podcast suggests that real children from the real world are teleported to this strange scary place in their dreams like an Alice in Wonderland situation, which explains their nightmares or why they seem to "wake up" because they are "teleporting" in or something. But that's not the case for the video game series. The game series is a time loop. Characters "wake up" from a "nightmare" because they are receiving premonitions of their death or a future event. (That also might explain why the Lady has a portrait of Six. Because she's dreamed of her own demise at the hands of that child.) (It's also suggested that the adults' grotesque appearances are due to the Tower's influence in the city, and any weird faces they have are actually masks built by the Doctor to cover their dignity.)

I'm also a little confused with the ending, where Noone/Ruth wants to leave, she wants to go to this place because she doesn't have her "water sickness" or "tumor" anymore, but like... the amount of suffering and horror she has been subjected to in that world in comparison to what little Otto has put her through I don't think is something that can even remotely be compared. It's implied the Ferryman manipulated her to lure her to that world, but it's a poor manipulation on his part. The fact that she went along with it is also silly to me. She is a child, but a smart one for her age. She witnessed kids being tortured and killed in the Nowhere. I think Otto being mean to you and plugging you into an annoying machine that gives you headaches is a way better deal here. (Though Otto implied to have drugged her is messed up) The Ferryman was a scrapped character from LN1 who would take children from the mainland and deliver them to the Maw, insinuating he was hired by the Lady. Instead, now he's a Ferryman to overall dimensions who transfers children there for unknown reasons. (It's maybe implied there are several different dimensions in the "nowhere" too.) It's also hinted that Otto's sister Sisi wore a yellow raincoat, which many would mistake for Six (on top of her name), but Six didn't get a raincoat until later, leaving Five/Girl in the Raincoat to be nominated for being his actual sister. But this world also implies that children only teleport there when they are sleeping, so typically they'd be wearing pajama attire when they enter the Nowhere. Long story short, I think this whole "yellow raincoat" thing with Sisi is just an easter egg they threw in there without thinking about it; because either way, a tie-in to an already-known character doesn't make sense. Noone/Ruth also claimed that the Nomes were creatures that "belonged in that world" but that's not true, as in canon, Nomes originate from presumably one source: the Lady, who turns children into Nomes to presumably steal their youth from them. In the podcast, that would mean the Nomes were children converted to be part of the world, but truly they don't originate from it like Noone implies. Little Nightmares is a series about the supernatural. A horror meta-commentary on corruption and greed. The Podcast coming in and being all "Actually it's just Alice in Wonderland" instead of it being its own natural, strange world just doesn't sit right with me. So really overall, I don't see it changing my mind on how LN works. I don't know if this will tie into LN3, but the developers are different so you can consider it a new canon if they do change things that don't match up.

#little nightmares #ask #text post #the sounds of nightmares #LN

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neopuff · 6 months

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title: compliments word count: ~3100 ships/characters: sasha/milla, otto summary: Sasha struggles with his feelings and gets advice from an unlikely source. ao3 link: https://archiveofourown.org/works/51792757

It was not a familiar situation that he found himself in.

Sasha Nein was an expert on keeping his feelings in check - he was meticulous and orderly and just the slightest bit paranoid when it came to staying clear and level-headed. He was, however, only human. And being only human, there were occasions where his emotions would run away from him, as much as he tried to stay on top of things.

As he laid on the ground underneath his partner, his face hot and an awkward smile on his face (because what else could he do when his heart was beating so fast?), Sasha was faced with one of those occasions.

Professional as always, the two of them focused on their mission and getting each other safely back to base, rather than spend any time examining the moment they’d shared. But hours later, when Sasha found himself alone in his lab, accompanied only by the soft hum of Milla’s presence in his mind, he was able to sit and focus on his feelings.

Their partnership wasn’t something new. They’d been working together for a few years already, and often their minds would come together without even trying. Their closeness couldn’t be understated - they knew more about one another than anyone else in the Psychonauts.

His growing feelings for her were also not new. Sasha had been…working on them for several months, trying to understand if he was misinterpreting his attachment to her as romantic when it was simply admiration, or if he was truly falling in love with his partner. He wouldn’t be the first - not the first Psychonaut to fall for a fellow psychic, and not the first person to fall under the spell of Milla Vodello.

It took several weeks for him to admit the truth to himself - he was not just falling for her, he was already 100%, completely in love. It was…strange, to say the least. Based on his research, Sasha had assumed this realization would make him feel more antsy or nervous around her. Instead, he felt calmer. Having her in his mind was always comforting. She never pried or spied or dug into areas he asked her not to. She was respectful of his privacy, just as he was to hers.

Genuinely, Sasha didn’t think his feelings for Milla would become a problem. He had no intention of acting on them or telling her anything about them, and he’d never let his feelings for her get in the way of his work. He was a Psychonaut first, human being second.

Of course, that was easier said than done.

Milla Vodello was beautiful and affectionate and friendly. And she was touchy - she liked to hold hands, link arms, kiss cheeks, hug. Sasha Nein normally wasn’t a fan of any of those sorts of things, though when Milla was the one initiating, he had no problem whatsoever.

There was one particular evening on a foggy day in April, when Milla let him know that she would be spending the night at a loud party with a friend named Francisco, and suggested that they could temporarily sever their psychic connection.

“I wouldn't want you to get a headache, darling,” Milla had said very sweetly.

And he agreed with her. It made sense. He didn't enjoy loud music or clubs and Milla explained that she hadn't gone partying with her friend in a long time, so she planned on drinking more than usual. It was a Friday, she'd already requested leave for the weekend - there was no professional reason for Sasha to do anything but agree.

But as he tried to work that night, as he often did, Sasha’s thoughts kept drifting to her friend Francisco. He was unfamiliar with the man - Milla had only mentioned him once or twice before while telling stories from her younger years. Those stories weren’t particularly detailed - Sasha had no real indication of what her relationship with Francisco was. It sounded like they were friends. But…relationships could change at any moment.

Psychonaut first, human being second was repeating in his head for over an hour, in a booming German voice that sounded oddly similar to his father’s, when Sasha realized he’d gone through an entire pack of cigarettes.

He felt deeply ashamed that simply the idea of Milla maybe being on a romantic outing with someone she shared history and interests with had put him in such a stupor. He’d gotten no work done and wasted money by smoking too much too quickly.

That was the first time that Sasha Nein considered the possibility of telling someone how he felt about her. The thought of telling Milla made his face turn red and his eye twitch, but perhaps he could tell…someone else. If therapy had taught him anything at all, it was the benefit of talking things out.

Unfortunately, he was not currently seeing a therapist. And he didn’t have many people he could call his friends. No family. He had a friendly(ish?) relationship with some of the Psychic Six, but was worried that there could be professional repercussions if he told them he was struggling. Sasha relied on his partnership with Milla more than he ever thought he would, and if talking about his feelings meant the possibility of losing her, he would keep his mouth shut forever.

“Burning the midnight oil, Sasha?”

Sasha turned around, surprised to find one of the Psychic Six standing at his doorway. Normally Sasha was keenly aware of his surroundings at all times; just another piece of evidence that he was getting distracted. “Otto. Can I help you with something?”

Otto Mentallis tilted his head slightly and smirked - he had always liked Sasha and he didn’t keep that a secret. They had a lot in common, and Otto saw a bit of himself in the man. “Just smelled more smoke than usual, wanted to make sure you hadn’t fallen asleep with a lit cigarette in your mouth.”

“Ah.” Sasha sighed, even more ashamed of himself than before. He glanced over at the ashtray on his desk and frowned at the sight of so many cigarette butts clumped together.

Following his line of sight, Otto raised a curious eyebrow. “Is something stressing you out, Nein? That looks worse than usual.”

Sasha paused, considering his options. His first instinct was to lie and say he was fine, there’s nothing on his mind. But Otto was a man of logic over emotions - though he wasn’t always known for respecting privacy, the man’s complete lack of interest in romance could make him the ideal person to discuss his problems with.

“...yes. Something is bothering me, actually,” Sasha said quietly, finally relenting.

Otto looked momentarily surprised by that and walked over to Sasha’s desk. “Let’s hear it, then. Maybe I can help you out.”

“It’s…complicated.” Sasha felt completely out of place, not sure how to word his feelings or his concerns. “I…I’ve been looking through the Psychonauts Handbook for an answer.”

“About?”

Sasha took a breath. “Fraternization.”

The look on Otto’s face would’ve been comical if Sasha wasn’t busy being too emotionally compromised to pay attention. That very clearly was not a word that the older man was prepared to hear.

“That’s, uh…hm,” Otto started, putting a hand to his chin. “I’m guessing this means you and Agent Vodello finally hooked up.”

Sasha’s body froze, bewilderment taking priority over his embarrassment. “...I don’t know what you mean by that.”

“Hook up? Really? It’s -”

The younger agent held up one hand, his other pinching the bridge of his nose. “I don’t know what you mean by finally.”

Otto chuckled awkwardly. “Well. You two are closer than the average partners - I’m sure you’ve noticed that. Everyone else has.”

Sasha felt himself getting more and more embarrassed by the second. “I…no, I didn’t realize that. We work very well together, but we’ve never…” He paused, trying to figure out what to do with his hands. He felt like a fool for thinking a conversation could improve his situation. “We’re just partners. And friends.”

“Alright, sure.” Otto didn’t sound convinced, but he was confused. “So then why the question of fraternization? You hooked up with someone else?”

“There has been no hooking up with anyone,” Sasha answered, starting to get impatient. Otto had a habit of running his mouth instead of letting other people talk, which was usually only slightly annoying. At that moment, Sasha found it agitating. “I…I think I’m…”

His mouth suddenly got dry, his cheeks flushed, his hands shaky.

Otto tilted his head again. “You don’t have to tell me if you don’t want to, you know.”

“I’m…in love with Agent Vodello,” Sasha said quietly, not realizing how strange it would feel to say it out loud. He’d barely even said the words in his head - out loud, it felt like he wasn’t even speaking. Like his words weren’t his own.

“Ah. Alright.”

The room grew silent for a few moments, and Sasha could feel the awkward tension in the air get thicker and thicker. He glanced up at Otto and was confused to see the man staring off into the distance, contemplative hand to his chin.

The older man finally spoke again after what felt like an eternity. “So what is your concern, exactly? Are you asking if you’re allowed to be in love with your partner?”

Listening to his question worded in such a way made Sasha feel like a fool. It sounded very, very stupid. “I…I don’t know,” he answered uncomfortably. “I’m worried my feelings will get in the way of our partnership.”

“Well, what’d she say about it?” Otto asked pointedly, almost like it was a completely normal follow-up question.

Sasha shook his head, unable to make his embarrassment lessen. “I haven’t said anything to her. And I’d prefer if you didn’t, either.”

Otto stepped closer, leaning against Sasha’s desk with his arms crossed over his chest. “Even I’ve got more tact than that, Nein. But I’m confused. Why not tell her? She probably feels the same way. Then you can get married and have babies if you want all that.”

Sasha felt his cheeks turning somehow even redder. “I-....I don’t-” He took a deep breath. “It’s not that I don’t necessarily want that. Or not want that. But I don’t think she feels the same way and I wouldn’t want to make her uncomfortable.”

Otto hummed. It was clear he wanted to say something that might not go over well, just from the way he was sorting through his thoughts. But Sasha couldn’t imagine how their conversation could possibly get worse.

“You’re overthinking this.”

“Am I?” Sasha asked genuinely.

“You’ve been partners for years. Even if she didn’t feel the same way, she clearly cares about you dearly,” Otto started - his voice was monotone, almost like he was reading something. “She’d never want to lose you as a partner and wouldn’t let a little thing like this get in the way of your teamwork.”

Sasha sighed, unconvinced. “It doesn’t feel like a little thing to me.”

Otto rolled his eyes and put a hand on Sasha’s shoulder. It was clear to both of them that he was not used to comforting someone in such a way, but he was doing a better job than either could’ve imagined. “You should try telling her, then.”

“I-...I don’t see that happening in the near future.”

“Well, try to do it before you die, at least.” Otto shrugged. “You work dangerous jobs, it’d be a shame to move on without getting to say it.”

He had a point, Sasha had to admit. He and Milla had already been in plenty of near-death situations where he’d felt an urge to hold her close and never let go.

“I can’t imagine where Bob would be if he’d never said anything,” Otto mumbled, off in his own world. “Probably even more miserable than he already is.”

Sasha frowned. He wasn’t much of a drinker, but the idea of losing Milla the way that Bob Zanotto lost his husband was almost too much to consider. He didn’t want to die without telling her. But he didn’t want to burden her with his feelings if she didn’t feel the same way. It was a difficult line he needed to balance on - but he was nothing if not a man of balance.

“You could just try flirting. See how she responds.”

Somehow, that suggestion was even more exhausting than straightforwardly telling her how he felt. “It should be obvious that I’ve never flirted with anyone in my life.”

Otto scoffed. “All you have to do is compliment her. I’m sure you already do that.”

“I…” Did he? Sasha had complimented her skills, her bravery, the many obstacles she’d overcome to get to where she was. He was constantly impressed by her and admired her in so many ways. He even, very occasionally, complimented her appearance - though only if she did something new with her hair or was dressed up for a special event.

“If you think she looks good, tell her so. Women love that.”

Sasha felt embarrassed again. “She always looks good.”

“Tell her, then!” Otto slapped him on the back. “Maybe she’ll smile and say you look good, too. Maybe she’ll kiss you. Lots of options, Nein.”

“I think this has been the most uncomfortable conversation of my life,” Sasha said, one hand over his mouth as he glared into the distance.

Otto chuckled. “Then you need to have more uncomfortable conversations! This is nothing.” The older man sighed and stretched, loudly cracking his back. “You need to quit overthinking and just be yourself.”

Sasha sighed again. “It’s hard not to overthink when she’s…out with someone right now.”

“Boyfriend?”

“I don’t believe so.”

“Then what’s the issue?” Otto’s wrinkled face was scrunched up in confusion.

“I don't know what the issue is! But I've not been able to get it off my mind,” Sasha confessed, exasperated. “I’m not accustomed to…jealousy.”

Rather than a chuckle, this time Otto laughed - loudly. It made Sasha steam with embarrassment and frustration.

“Nein, trust me. You’ll be fine.” Otto patted the younger man’s shoulder and sighed almost dreamily, thinking back to something from years past. “If you ever feel an urge to follow her or sabotage her other relationships, then you’ve got a problem. A little jealousy never hurt anyone.”

Desperately wanting this conversation to end, Sasha relented and sighed - he was going to try to listen to Otto. He’d take the man’s advice and see how it went. “For someone who’s claimed to never been in a relationship, you’ve been acting very knowledgeable about the subject.”

“That’s what happens when you’re always watching from the outside.” Otto wagged one finger knowingly. “It gives you more perspective.”

Sasha had to admit, that made a lot of sense.

“Now trust my methods! You’ll see, Sasha, it’ll work out.”

“...I’ll try.”

There was no drama or fanfare when Milla reconnected their minds the next day. Sasha kept his questions brief - did you have a good time with your friend, did you make sure to drink plenty of water - and Milla seemed satisfied. She didn't mention anything significant, the club played some older music that she hadn't heard in years and that made the experience more fun, apparently. But otherwise there was nothing of note, and it didn’t seem like she was hiding anything from him, either.

On Monday morning when she floated into his office to bring him what would be his second cup of coffee for the day, Sasha slowly turned his head to stare. She looked lovely every day, just as he'd said to Otto, but something about her did seem lovelier that morning.

Perhaps it was seeing her for the first time in several days.

She placed the coffee on his desk and Sasha smiled at her awkwardly. “Um…Camilla?”

“Yes, darling?”

“You, uh…you look very nice today.”

Her head popped up and there was a confused expression on her face - but she certainly didn't look unhappy.

She seemed flattered, if he had to guess.

“Why thank you, Sasha!” Milla answered, clasping her hands together in front of her. “And you look very handsome as always!”

He blushed and quickly turned away from her, wondering if she was just being polite. “I also wanted to say that, um.” He cleared his throat. “Your levitation skills are admirable. Any Psychonaut would be happy to have half your talent.”

There was a moment of silence in the room, a moment where Sasha thought he might've somehow said something wrong. But then very suddenly, Milla’s arms were wrapped around his shoulders and she placed a gentle kiss against his cheek.

“I'm not sure what's come over you, darling, but I'm a huge fan!” Milla said as she pulled away. “A girl could get used to so many compliments.”

Sasha huffed, resisting the urge to place his hand against his cheek where there was undoubtedly a lipstick stain. He couldn't believe how right Otto had been. “I just wanted to…make sure you know how much I value you.”

Her eyes sparkled for a moment and her smile couldn't have been wider. “You’re so sweet today, Sasha. Did something happen this weekend?”

“Not at all.” He didn't need to tell her that he was jealous of her going out with another man that he knew nothing about. “Just wanted to make sure you knew.”

She floated up and bent her knees, hands still clasped together and hanging down under her legs. She was smiling so much that it was hurting her face, but how could she stop? “I appreciate that. And you, of course.”

There was a glint in her eyes that made Sasha think she had more she wanted to say, but he didn't pry. He couldn't do too much on a Monday morning or she'd start asking more questions. Instead, he simply nodded at her and hoped the heat on his cheeks wasn't noticeable.

“Have a good day, darling,” Milla said as she floated back out the door.

He didn't respond, but it was less than a minute later that he felt her psychic presence in his mind.

“Would you like to have lunch together today?”

Sasha smiled, feeling accomplished despite the fact that they almost always ate lunch together. On the days that he remembered to eat lunch, of course. “Sounds excellent.”

Her response was a burst of positive energy that Sasha felt seep into his bones. He'd definitely be listening to Otto more often.

#psychonauts #milla vodello #sasha nein #sashamilla #science party #carrofics #idk idk.......i needed to write something for them #it was a desperate need #i also need to write something where they make out but thats much more difficult

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low-budget-korra · 2 years

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Comments on House of The Dragon s01e06

Alicent Hightower

I saw a tweet saying that Alicent is like those girls that have a kid right after high school so she had to marry the father of their kid so their youth, and grew resentful because their high school friends go on to college and live their best lives. Basically "you got to live everything I wanted to but Couldn't, so now I hate u" kinda of stuff and now I can't thing otherwise

Otto started te job and Alicent continue, If it wasn't for her and her resent towards Rhaenyra everything would be different. A lot of people wouldn't died.

And what's worst is that until this point or until they start to take a son for a son, Rhaenyra didn't hate Alicent or her kids, all by contrary.

In fact, I believe all this episode was about the construction of Alicent as the villain of the show for now. But she ain't the only villain...

I already hate her hypocrite and resentful ass.

Rhaenyra and Laenor

I like their relationship after all. Rhaenyra continue to be the hero of the story and Emma did such a amazing job portraying Rhaenyra feelings only with her gaze. She didn't needed much to show the power and dominance of the princess, something that we could see in the council scene where Rhaenyra dominates.

Something that was good to see after her humiliating scene where she had to drag herself so Alicent could judge the baby.

Poor Laenor, we saw he still resentful towards Criston in one lil scene in the beginning of the episode, rightfully so, and by the promo of next episode I think he will fight against Criston after all and maybe Criston will be the one to murder or severally injury him. I would be surprised if the show goes nuts again the Criston murder the king with consequences for his actions

Laena and Daemon

I like how they give Daemon the same choice they gave Viserys in the first episode. And it seems that different than Viserys, Daemon didn't choose the child over his wife or he simple refused to choose.

I really enjoy Vhagar and Laena little moment before the final Dracarys. It was like Vhagar wanted to know for sure that that's was what Laena really wanted and than did what her master command.

But I don't know, it feels of Laena died like that, It didn't seems to be some "you die or your die" situation, or she dying asking to go out in flames instead of go out in a bed. Like Bjorn did in Vikings.

The Strongs

Lyonel Strong was such a honorable man. He really is like Ned Stark but smarter.

I still don't get Larys, like plotting against his whole family? He is the reason why the Strong House no longer exists after the Dance. He really shows to be just a egoistic man who doesn't care about his own family and House legacy

I will watch Sor Harwin beating the shit outta Criston everytime I feel sad. Also, he would make a far better fight instructor than Criston

Criston Cole

What a cunt! What a asshole! Piece of shit excuse of a man. It's been 10 fucking years. Get over your incel freak. Can wait to see you die, and I hope the show give us this cathartic moment soon enough

The Kids

No much to say here other than Aegon II being a asshole and will become evil because of his mother. The same goes to Aemond.

The kids didn't hate each other, Alicent made them hate each other

Final Critic

I thought they were doing things fast because this all we've saw until episode 5 was really just a prequel to the dance but now that we already change actresses and all, yet they are still running.

Nothing big or something, is just that even tho the actors did a amazing job portraying a 10year story in 10 minutes, I really would like to see more of Rhaenyra and Harwin or Laena and Daemon, or even Laena with Rhaenyra

#house of the dragon #game of thrones #house targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #criston cole #harwin strong #viserys targaryen #laenor velaryon #leana velaryon #got #hotd #daemon targaryen

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howdoesagrapewrites · 5 months

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i love when you talk about the readers legacy/history it really shows your dedication to everything you write 💗

I want to ask how is reader remembered? do greens and blacks have different views on her? Or is she blamed for the dance since she technically cheated on Aemond and tried to run + being a bastard and a woman

You're so sweet 😭😭 sometimes I'm kid of scared I go overboard but it's really nice that you appreciate it 💜

Omg I love this question ‼️‼️‼️

Reader overall could have it worse as far as historic legacy goes. Though of course Alicent and Otto don't want the bad press on Aemond, it is kind of inevitable. Otto tries to spin it around as "see? Daemon and Rhaenyra raise unstable, easily triggered children. Poor little reader, she was probably abused by those horrible monsters, now imagine if they sat on the iron throne" they also try to reframe her death as accident caused by a senile Vhagar, but absolutely no one buys that.

By the blacks, she's seen as a strong tempered girl who was held captive by an obsessive prince and tried to go back to their family by any means possible. This would be pretty accurate if they did not downplay or straight up deny that reader had a strong bond with Alicent, Helaena and Daeron. Some say that Daemon burned all letters that could prove there was ever a bond between Daeron and his daughter, this is a rumor, as there is no evidence that Daemon ever targeted letters specifically when attacking the greens, and they could have been lost to a number of incidents.

Since Aemond got the wort part, people don't usually read the story as Y/N cheating on him as much as they think of Daeron and Y/N being cruelly separated by Aemond's whim

The most popular versions of the story usually revolves around Daeron and reader's romance, but for a number of years, singing a song with those contents would mean you would be fired from court (is not a favorite amongst the blacks)

The greens paint reader as being more defenseless, and Aemond sadly succumbing to Targaryen madness, but they take her presence at Aegon's coronation as a sign of her supporting his claim over Rhaenyra's

Reader is often called "the fist horn" or "the first fire" because it was her death that truly began the bloodshed amongst the factions

Since reader could be considered devout (thanks Alicent) she is considered a "saint" of sorts, you know, a person with a strong faith whose life is studied by religious scholars for several reasons (most of them involve some sort of "Mary Magdalene" rhetoric about the reader being born unholy but then turning to the faith and being "saved") one supreme septon said "Even the stranger coddled her softly before taking her away"

Bonus: as a child, Sansa didn't really like this story, Daeron was a knight, yet she couldn't save her beloved, and then the war came. She found this too depressing and asked for her septa to tell her a different story. But after finding herself in a similar situation, this story becomes an important part of her development, as she grows, she thinks she could understand you better than anyone (she's a reader kinnie, basically)

#dragon jaws #i think this has been one of my favorite asks about Dragon Jaws #anons 🩷#i could expand on this just ask

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creganstahk · 1 year

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do you ever think how drastically different everything would be if aemond was born with alicent’s dark hair.

walk with me.

if you think about what happens directly before his birth— otto and viserys’ big break up (where viserys firmly draws the line between his blood— rhaenyra— and otto’s, where he pretty much commits to neglecting aegon and helaena and then aemond), plus we have alicent taking criston as her personal guard, rhaenyra’s marriage and eventual pregnancy with jace

everything may have been so much worse for aemond and alicent as well. not only did his dragon not hatch, but jace’s did, and then luke’s, but aemond’s still didnt. its bad enough that aemond was bullied but it would have been worse on growing rumors that he’s actually a bastard— why else does he not look anything like helaena and aegon AND he doesnt have a dragon?? and viserys is visibly decrepit (how could he possibly get alicent pregnant again)? and then with aegon joining in on the bullying too? he really is ostracized and isolated among the boys as if he were perceived a bastard.

he wouldnt have the same ideals about “pure targaryen blood" , because how could he? but i do think he would still try and prove himself for other reasons with learning valyrian and his education. not just out of second son syndrome but to feel worthy of his name at all. but there is a bitterness that somehow acceptance and a semblance of worthiness comes easy to everyone else except him and it isnt fair. but aemond may have even tried to befriend jace more, as he’s the closest in age and thinks that they have this shared thing.

now this all works out great for rhaenyra who as we know isn’t above throwing alicents children under the bus to protect her own. as long as the scrutiny is on alicent and aemond, even just the threat of rumor, no one will really care about her situation. thing is, she would know that alicent would never have a bastard child and would never actually accuse her of anything, but nor would she vocally defend alicent. and she knows that alicent is so rule-abiding that if anything, alicent may even be dependant on rhaenyra’s good will in a sort of quid pro quo “i wont speak out against your children if you don’t about mine” .

it could also mean rhaenyra getting what she wanted with the betrothal between jace and helaena if alicent really wasnt in a position that she could refuse.

but then driftmark happens— i can picture the fight escalating with words of aemond having no right to claim vhagar. not only because she was laena’s to claim, but because aemond is a bastard. even if jace already knows by now that he is actually a bastard, he could double down on this out of projection. not because he’s a malicious child, but kids say things things in anger

but viserys would not defend aemond the same way as he would rhaenyra and that lack doing so after years of negligence is what confirms people’s doubt even more. it doesnt matter that only people of valyrian ancestry can claim a dragon, the damage has been done. and if alicent finally snaps and lashes out at rhaenyra because this bullshit has gone on long enough, it could very much result in aemond being exiled to oldtown to “keep the peace” — he’s the one that’s been maimed, he’s the one that’s had his parentage questioned unfairly and in public. but viserys is both a coward and perhaps wanted the excuse to punish alicent in someway.

and so aemond loses an eye, is exiled on false rumors, severed from the only person that really ever cared for him. sure he gets to know daeron more but his hatred for the blacks has never been more solidified. and alicent as well, any pretense of allegience with rhaenyra would be swiftly severed and she would have been working to install aegon as soon as they got back to kings landing.

all because aemond had brown hair instead of silver

#aemond targaryen

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spider-xan · 5 months

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Thinking about how the part of the Lizard origin story in ASM #6 where Connors just randomly decides to use the limb regeneration formula on himself immediately after one successful test on a rabbit is extremely goofy in a way that works for a Silver Age comic book story where you just kind of have to roll with weird shit like that bc that's just how the world works and characters behave like cartoon characters, but it gets tricky if you are updating the story to a more grounded and realistic setting for modern audiences bc it's obviously a stupid and ethically dubious thing to do - but I can only really think of three updated stories where the writers tried to contextualize him testing on himself in a way that seems more understandable than idk reasons?

The Ultimate/1610 comics had him be a lot more unbalanced than usual, so when he loses his funding for the project, he's understandably unhinged and angry and drunk when he makes an impulsive decision to jump to a later stage of the project to try and save it; the Ultimate cartoon changes the Lizard formula to one of several animal DNA projects by Otto that isn't limited to regeneration and puts him in an immediately urgent situation where it makes sense for him to use it on himself as a desperate effort to try and save Peter; the TASM film has the plot where Oscorp was proceeding with unethical human trials on unknowing test subjects and him trying to stop that by testing on himself, which, for all that I criticize TASM's interpretation of the character, is actually one of the adaptation choices I really like and thought was a great idea that also says a lot about his personality and moral compass in the spirit of his 616 counterpart, so it's a shame about everything else.

#xan's spidey meta #curt connors #the lizard

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breakspe4rs · 2 years

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WTF was that? One of the reasons I was liking HOTD so much more than GOT is because it had regained its essence. Where everything is grey ,in fact here it was much more grey. Each character evolved and their decisions could become contradictory but that was what made them interesting.

Tywin could treat people like Gendry with respect but do atrocities to his own son. It was the same here. Viserys killed his wife for a baby and crawled to the throne to defend his daughter. But in these last chapters everything seems to be forgotten. Back to the same essence of the last seasons of GOT. Obviously Aegon has to be bad ,VERY BAD ,raping girls and watching 10 year old fights. Criston is simply reduced to an extremist hater, Otto always talked about the order in the kingdom but the writers were lazy to talk about it and they only left the part where he wants the throne. Larys one of the most interesting characters in the book was reduced to an ambitious fetishist... for god sake. The series had already gone out of its way to make Rhaenyra "a good girl" in the last few chapters (even though the situation lent itself to not doing so) to such a degree that Daemon (the same one who almost killed a messenger and killed his innocent wife) seems like a good guy. The series goes out of its way to ignore any sins the blacks commit and paint the greens as the bad guys.I can understand that from the fans, but that the series makes it canon, that's the worst.

Cmonnn... A little more fairness. It's obvious they do it because a lot of fans support Rhaenyra and they need fan service. But not like that.The Rhaenys scene is the worst BY FAR(much more than the death of the old man at the council, this series definitely hates Criston). It's so random so unnecessary and incoherent, and I asked.... WHY WHAT? . WHY? i want to know how "THE GREEN COUNCIL" thinks? ,it's their time.for one chapter only your spoiled children won't see Daemon,ok, you did it already ,do it right. Is it so hard for once to focus on giving depth to one side of the war? It looks like an ao3 fanfic scene ,for god sake. The story had all the elements precisely to be a civil war. You could come to understand ,until a couple of chapters ago ,why some would not want Rhaenyra to have the crown. Many not even for the obvious reasons. But now they reduce it to "she's a woman" or "we want the throne".

The script had room for more and it is evident that they did not want to talk about it. And it was even funny to see how desperate the script was to move things forward without stopping to explore all this. Alicent even has some doubts about everything that happens but nah ,why show his turning point? Let's just put that she already decided and talks to Otto. Same with Aegon. It needed to be understood ,in an unbiased way ,why they act like that Not simply being the bad guys because the fans want them to be the bad guys , even worse that is no excuse to take away depth from each character.

There are several reasons why all there don't want to see Rhaenyra on the throne but it seems the series didn't bother even a little bit to delve into that. I hope it doesn't follow that trend because it would be disappointing to see the franchise become ,AGAIN,a toy of the fanboys

#house of the dragon #game of thrones #teamgreen #criston cole #larys strong #queen alicent #rhaenyra #hotd #team black

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bohemian-nights · 6 months

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My honest opinions on HOTD Characters:

Rhaenyra: I feel as though she doesn't do anything to better her position. Like I'm of the belief that she would've been usurped no matter what but she didn't anything in my opinion to make her situation better. It's almost as thought she thought "what could make this worse?" and then did just that.

Alicent: Unlike Rhaenyra I think she does try to better the situation for herself and her children but ultimately fails. Throughout the series she says and does certain things that are sometimes just foul and then acts as though she doesn't know what she just did. She's got the "lost pup" act down to the tea.

Daemon: He's never going to be truly "content" until he figures out what it is exactly that he wants. In my opinion it seems as though he's always trying to prove himself to someone or something. And when he realizes he's failed at doing that he lashes out (often at the people around him). He like most men in HOTD is a bad father and a horrible husband.

Corlys: I was so happy when he told Rhaenys that it was time for him to stop his pursuit of the throne. Because his ambition really tore apart his family. That being said I lost respect for him when he told his twelve year old to offer herself in marriage to a man old enough to be her father. He then betrothed his son (his gay son) to a woman. While obviously this was always going to happen but betrothing him to the heir to the iron throne knowing as Rhaenys said "his true nature" was never going to work out. I'm also 99% sure he cheated on his wife and had a lover.

Rhaenys: Similar to Daemon I often find myself wondering whether or not Rhaenys knows what she wants. More specifically if she can fight for what she wants. She says a lot of hypocritical things and is always the first person to call a woman out for "bending to the will of men" but does the exact thing herself.

Otto: Just like Corlys his ambition was his family's downfall. He's also similar to Daemon in the way that as second sons I think they both are always trying to prove themselves but go about it in completely different ways.He's very manipulative when it comes to his children and grandchildren, which isn't good.

Viserys: He disgusts me and like his daughter "his only child" he doesn't do anything to make the situations of himself and children Rhaenyra better.

Criston: I can excuse a lot of the things he does before episode six. A lot of people in the fandom downplay how breaking his oath effected him and just assume he hates women. When it comes to him and Rhaenyra I'm pretty 60/40. That being said I think he was unnecessary cold to her children. Other than that he just played Alicent's loyal sworn shield. Also when it comes to him and Alicent I'm 50/50. On one hand I'd love if they got together but on the other hand I don't think it'd make since for their characters.

Harwin: He didn't really do a lot but commit treason lol. No but seriously people get on Criston for not wanting to be Rhaenyra's quote on quote "whore" but what self respecting person does? I think he and Rhaenyra were happy but they were also really dumb. It's such a shame that he was killed by his own brother.

Laena: I felt really bad for her. She seemed so depressed. And honestly I would be too. She's a big reason as to why I don't like Daemon all that much. She was either fifteen or sixteen when she married him and fell for "the rouge Prince." Then he took her to Pentos, and isolated her from her family refusing to return to Westeros. And most likely emotionally neglected Rhaena. Not to mention Daemon was cheating on her as well and then laughed at her funeral and then slept with Rhaenyra the day of. I was so surprised (and disgusted) when people say her death was "good." As if she didn't burn herself and her unborn child to death. Only a severely mentally ill and suicidal person would do that.

Laenor: I felt bad for him. That being said I really do think the riders should’ve just killed him off. It’s going to happen next season off-screen anyway. Tbh I felt as though this just made everyone involved look selfish. Laenor because he’s leaving behind his “children” and family who he loves to thinks him dead already after the death of his sister. Rhaenyra and Daemon because how dare you allow everyone to think he was dead including his parents and “children.” Also what Rhaenyra and Daemon do at Laena’s funeral disgusted me.

Aegon: I can move past a lot of things when it comes to characters but rape has never and will never be one of them. His actions really do disgust me. Then I read the book and while I still don’t like him I find it odd they chose to go with that interpretation of him when Mushroom is the only one saying it. I will say that Aegon had the possibility to be an interesting character especially since his actor is attractive but rape really turned a lot of people off his character.

Helaena: I wish we could see more of her. She reminds me of Ophelia. I feel so bad for her. No parent but especially no mother should ever be put in such a situation for something she had no part in. I do wish she would say one sentence that didn’t have some sort of hidden meaning.

Aemond: He’s really the best of both worlds, show wise. But I see just like his mother he likes doing foul things and then acting surprised at the the consequences of those actions. He is in my top 5 characters though.

Jace: He doesn’t really do anything, similar to his mother. In the books it’s Jace who’s studying and learning to sword fight and is trying to improve his situation and prove himself. Whereas show wise he seems as though he just sulks.

Luke: Similar to his brother only where Jace acts confident and acts as though he doesn’t let him being a bastard get to him Luke is the opposite.

Baela: I would love to see her storyline explored more in season 2. Saw the trailer and I’m excited for her. Not much more to say other than she’s a true ride or die.

Rhaena: Unlike her sister who also barely speaks I can’t seem to get a sense of her personality when she speaks. She reminds me a lot of Sansa in the way that she used her courtesy as a shield/weapon and made every perceive her to be so kind and stupid. So next season she’ll be in the Vale and I’d like to see her learn a lot of political skills and meet Gwayne (he and Garmound can be combined) Corban.

Besides a handful of characters(excluding the dead ones Daemon, Aemond, Alicent, Baela, Rhaena and Rhaenys) I really could care less about most of the characters on this show. Most just range from boring to comically villainous. The writing for them is very meh.

#bnasks #bnask #anti hotd

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adamwatchesmovies · 7 months

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The Silence (2019)

While The Silence is based on a 2015 book and production started in 2018, let’s not kid ourselves. This lousy movie was released because of its similarities to the far superior A Quiet Place. Poorly written, with unmemorable monsters and frustratingly stupid characters, even if you’re starving for a movie in which blind threats stalk a family that knows sign language, you won’t be satisfied.

An underground expedition unleashes ancient creatures dubbed “vesps” upon humanity. These blind, carnivorous pterosaur-like beasts will tear you to pieces if they hear you make a noise. Luckily for the Andrews, they’ve all learned sign language following their daughter's partial hearing loss. Ally (Kiernan Shipka), her brother Jude (Kyle Harrison Breitkopf), their parents Hugh (Stanley Tucci) & Kelly (Miranda Otto), their grandmother Lynn (Kate Trotter) and family friend Glenn (John Corbett) flee the city looking for someplace quiet but soon learn the monsters aren’t the only threats.

Upon release, there was some controversy surrounding the fact that Kiernan Shipka isn’t actually deaf (unlike Millicent Simmonds from A Quiet Place). In this film’s defense, Ally isn’t quite deaf; she’s just losing her hearing. The movie makes it pretty clear she can occasionally understand what people are saying even when they’re not signing. Unless that’s just a mistake on the filmmaker’s part. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was.

The casting isn’t the problem. Everyone’s charismatic, sympathetic or appropriately sinister. The issue is the writing. I know these characters don’t know they’re in a horror movie but their situation isn’t THAT difficult to understand. There are flying monsters that eat anything that makes noise. DON’T MAKE NOISE. As soon as they jump in the car and bring in their dog but no cookbook entitled “Man’s Best Friend Makes a Tasty Dish”, you know these people are going to struggle with even the most basic life-or-death scenarios. They've seen the same news footage of sidewalk-covered gore and people screaming for their lives as us. Why so dumb?

Our heroes prove themselves too stupid to live numerous times. They forget to lock doors, invite shady (and murderous) strangers into their homes, fail to establish lookouts when there might be signs of trouble, discard useful weapons, etc. You’re so frustrated with them that when the flying devils whittle down the party, the odds of survival seem to increase. You start wondering if it's deliberate. "Maybe this movie will have a sense of humor about itself." It sure would help make The Silence more fun.

The story feels like a YA novel crossed with one or several other, better movies. Time is spent fleshing out the world by introducing religious cults and director John R. Leonetti establishes a romance between Ally and her “best friend”, Rob (Dempsey Bryk). All so we can map out exactly where the story will go before we get into the dystopian, post-apocalyptic world that’s sure to come in the sequels. We’re left on an ominous note. Will the vesps adapt to the one environment that keeps humanity safe, or will humans adapt to a soundless lifestyle first? To this question, all you can do is roll your eyes. There’s a reason why movies like A Quiet Place and Reign of Fire skipped right to the world being nothing but smoldering ruins. Deadly as the monsters in this movie may be, they’re not that smart. In fact, they’re hilariously dumb in at least one scene. I’m pretty sure you guys will be fine if you learn to shut up.

The film isn’t all that clever or well written. For instance, the idea of a soundless world isn’t well explored at all. Tremors was doing this kind of thing way back in the day and it isn’t the only one but writers Carey and Shane Van Dyke only scratch the surface when it comes to the concept. Without likable characters, novel twists or some kind of out-of-the-box thinking, you can’t help but notice the unconvincing special effects.

If you’re determined to watch The Silence, here’s what you do: first, you watch A Quiet Place. You have fun getting scared. Then, you watch this and you laugh at the attempt. Otherwise, don’t bother. (May 29, 2021)

#The Silence #Movies #films #movie reviews #film reviews #A Quiet Place #Tremors #John R. Leonetti #Carey Van Dyke #Shane Van Dyke #Kiernan Shipka #Stanley Tucci #Miranda Otto #John Corbett #2019 movies #2019 films

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a-few-of-my-favorite-mangas · 3 years

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Honzuki no Gekokujou / Ascendance of a Bookworm

Official Fan Book Volume 01 Illustrations - Part 3 / 3

- - a few more interesting answers - -

Q: Did Ferdinand execute Arno because he knew that keeping him alive would be bad for Rozemyne’s future?

A: That’s only part of the reason. Arno’s self-centered actions put a blue shrine maiden planned to be an archnoble at risk, and him not reporting Fran’s visit almost entirely ruined Ferdinand’s plot. His crimes were immense and it was obvious that he would continue making trouble, so Ferdinand eliminated him.

Me: I missed this on the first read, I hadn’t caught on to the ‘towering staircase’ euphemism yet... Arno’s chapter was the first really shocking chapter, I couldn’t believe how dark and twisted my mostly wholesome LN got. I kept wondering what happened to Arno? How can we not revisit Arno? I need to know what is going on with Arno! Then I did a re-read, LOL.

Q: Please, oh please! Tell us who snitched and told Sylvester about the Ferdinand illustrations!

A: It was actually Karstedt who told him about them first. Elvira had chatted to him about how happy she was to have bought them.

Me: So did Karstedt get a little petty over Elvira’s fangirling? I always got the feeling their marriage is purely political, or at least it is now.

Q: Are there any characters who were revised after you outlined the plot? If so, I would love to hear who they are and how they changed. Was it a personality change? Did they get a bigger role? Like how Damuel wasn’t supposed to be such a pitiable character, but keeps getting more and more pitiable as the series goes on.

A: I usually add substance to the characters after thinking up the general story outline, but there are several that I ended up reworking or combining into one. Myne is one such character. I originally pictured her as a meek, quiet girl who lived deep in the mountains. But a meek girl wouldn’t be able to overcome the barriers of status and distinctive cultures, so she ended up becoming the rampaging little gremlin that we’re all familiar with.

Other than that, Benno comes to mind. In my initial plan, it was Otto who would take Myne to the guildmaster. But the guildmaster was old enough that he couldn’t run around himself, and he was from such a historied store that he was too conservative for new inventions and ideas. I thought about how to bridge the gap between Otto and the guildmaster, and ultimately came up with Benno. He has connections to an ex-traveling merchant and a historied store, plus he’s young with lots of ambition and motivation, so he basically stole all the roles that I had expected to give to the guildmaster! Haha.

Lutz was in a similar situation. I originally intended for Myne to make paper with Tuuli, with Freida joining in midway through, but then it struck me that all the physical labor would be an issue with only girls involved. My solution basically involved Lutz taking over most of the work that I had planned for Tuuli and Freida to do.

I also thought up two potential routes for the temple, where either the High Bishop or the High Priest would work to protect her. In one scenario, the kindly old grandfather High Bishop would dote on her while the High Priest tried to eliminate her due to the threat her immense amount of mana presented. In order to save Myne, the High Bishop would turn to the noble society that scorned him, begging his nephew the archduke to save her. I wasn’t really satisfied with how the kindly High Bishop behaved, though, so I ultimately went with the High Priest route.

Me: I love this entire passage... I love the choices Miya Kazuki makes with her world building, and it is clear she really thinks things through. One of the best aspects of this story is that it does feel lived in, the characters make sense, and everything feels organic and connected... and kindly High Bishop, glad we got grumpy Ferdinand instead! Now I’m replacing every image of Ferdinand with the High Bishop... LOL

- - -

Really, there are so many good Q & A I kept wanting to add more, but there are just too many. I had a lot of fun reading this fanbook, images aside, the bonus story and the Q & A made this more than worth the price for me! ^_^

#honzuki no gekokujou #ascendance of a bookworm #japanese light novel

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jessilyria · 4 years

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ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY SEASON 2

Hello! This covers everything from trailers, promo pics, interviews, and articles. Pics and links will be included. The info is in vague chronological order (as much as it can be.)

Needless to say, this post contains SPOILERS and is LONG ^‿^

If you’d like a non-spoilery version with just the basic facts please check out my Umbrella Academy Timeline.

***********************************************************************

According to Steve Blackman, season 2 is about second chances and the endgame is still to stop the 2019 apocalypse (X).

The opening scene of season 2:

youtube

The siblings arrive in the past at different times, but all in the same spot - an alleyway with some dumpsters which leads out onto a high-street.

Noticeable locations on the high-street include a beauty salon for black people, and an electronics shop which later on closes down and becomes a base for the group.

The order they arrive in is the order the promo pictures were released: Ben & Klaus, Allison, Luther, Diego, Vanya, Five.

It will likely take a while before the whole team is reunited, and possibly longer before the siblings begin to meet the new characters: “It was several episodes before we all started to interact with each other” (X).

Ben & Klaus land in February 1960 (X). As Klaus is sober, his powers continue to develop and he uses them to impresses some people. (X)

"Klaus effectively starts the hippie movement off early by founding a cult whose philosophy is based on the lyrics of pop songs that have yet to be written. “Don’t go chasing waterfalls. Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you’re used to,” he tells one awed follower." (X)

"Destiny's Children! Let us commune with music." *starts whistling*

But Klaus isn’t as happy as he seems in this new life of cult stardom. “He can’t deal with the praise; it’s just become strangulating.” (X)

There’s also tension between Klaus and Ben, but its unknown whether this is because of the cult, because Klaus is "trying to rekindle his relationship with Dave" (X), or because Klaus’ evolved powers mean Ben can now possess him (X). Either way, Ben’s “determined not to be invisible to the ones he loves, willing to go further than ever before to make his presence known.” (X)

As Klaus is wearing the same outfit as the promo pics (and has a long beard which he later loses), its likely the following scene takes place early on.

Klaus: Now what? Ben: Remember when I told you the engine was overheating? Klaus: Yeah, well, being smart doesn't make you interesting. Ben: Neither does your beard.

Ben: You think I’m just going to keep following you everywhere for another three years? Klaus: Yeah, you are my ghost-bitch, remember?

*************************

Klaus: My skin was on fire! Ben: Good! I’ve got to get to San Francisco, I have unfinished business.

Allison is second to appear in 1961 (X). "Confused and looking for help, Allison walks into a diner and is greeted by a “Whites Only” sign, then chased across town by a group of white men until she finds sanctuary in a beauty parlour for Black women that doubles as a meeting place for civil-rights activists." (X)

Its been confirmed that the below image is from ep 1. (X)

Have you experienced discrimination by your employer?

She meets a man named Raymond Chestnut who is a “born leader with the smarts, gravitas, and confidence to never have to prove it to anyone. He has the innate ability to disarm you with a look, and is a devoted husband.” (X)

Luther appears on April 10th 1962 and lands on a dumpster.

He ends up working for Jack Ruby (X), a mysterious man who owns a nightclub (and who fatally shot Lee Harvey Oswald after Oswald was in custody for JFK's assassination). Luther’s job involves being a driver, bouncer, and underground fighter.

Its been confirmed that the following scene is from ep 1. (X)

Diego appears on Sep 17th 1963. One of the first things he sees is a televised address from President JFK.

He ends up in an insane asylum for stalking Lee Harvey Oswald and spouting “delusional claims” about JFK’s assassination (X). Its here he meets Lila Pitts, “a chameleon who can be as brilliant or as clinically insane as the situation requires”. She’s also "unpredictable, mischievous" and "sarcastic" with a "twisted sense of humour." (X)

Vanya appears on Oct 12th 1963 (X). “She arrives and gets hit by a car, driven by a woman (Sissy). She smashes her head on the cement... She remembers her name, but nothing else.” (X)

She gets a job on a ranch as a live-in-nanny for Sissy, a "fearless, no nonsense Texas Mom" who "married young for all the wrong reasons" and is "eager to rediscover what love has to offer." (X)

Because she has forgotten her past traumas, Vanya is “much more confident and more in touch with her emotional self” (X). She forms a unique bond with Sissy’s son, Harlan, who is non-verbal (X). Its been confirmed that the following photos are from ep 1. (X)

Vanya: I wish I remembered something.  Sissy: The doctor said it would take time. Don’t push yourself.

Vanya is also slowly discovering her powers on her own.

Five appears with Hazel on Nov 15th after witnessing the world going down in nuclear explosions.

Five: What was that? Hazel: The end of the world, November 25th 1963. Five: And where am I now? Hazel: Dallas, ten days earlier. Five: ...I need to find my family.

But of course its not going to be that easy, the Commission is still out there and “will hunt us down wherever and whenever we go.”

In the trailer we are introduced to the head of The Commission, a fish named Carmichael. He sends three Swedish assassins, Oscar, Axel, and Otto, to hunt down Five and the others.

At some point they acquire a milk-truck and one of them dresses as a milkman. On a location shoot, the Swedes were seen in their truck outside a house in an urban area. They check a map and one of them pumps a shotgun (X).

Whilst searching for his siblings Five encounters a man named Elliot, an "alien obsessive (who) witnesses The Umbrella Academy's separate arrivals." He agrees to help Five find the others. (X)

“3rd EVENT, April 10th 1962″ is above photos of Luther arriving, “September 17th 1963″ is above photos of Diego arriving, and the right column are photos of Vanya arriving still in her White Violin outfit.

Five manages to find Diego in the asylum and they have a conversation.

Five: Listen to me very closely, you gibbering moron. You are not going to do a goddamned thing. Diego: Why not? Five: Because we have to stop the apocalypse. Diego: But that doesn't happen for another 60 years. Five: Not that apocalypse, this is a... new one. It followed us.  Diego: *begins laughing*

At some point after this the Swedes storm the asylum.

“Who are those guys?!”

Diego and Lila seem to make their escape from the Swedes and the asylum pretty quickly however. Its been confirmed that the below pic is from ep 2. (X)

Based on Diego’s outfit and length of beard, the following two scenes take place around the same time. First, a heated car conversation which Five crashes.

Diego: You don’t know anything about me! Lila: I know everything. You are an open book written for very dumb children. Diego: I am n-not trying to b-be a hero, okay? Lila: Then why are you doing this?  Five: *appears in the backseat* Because he is an idiot. Lila: Who the hell are you? Five: Hi, I’m his loving brother. Diego: Who left me to rot in the nut-house. Five: To protect you from yourself.  Lila: Thats quite sweet. Diego: Okay. Both of you. Out.

And second, a dark encounter with a familiar figure...

Reginald Hargreeves & Pogo

The summary for episode 2 also mentions that “an incident at the bar leads Luther to Vanya,” and “Five finds an unsettling surprise in the film Hazel left behind,” which likely links to this image:

Its been confirmed that the following scene is from ep3 (X). Klaus is seen emerging from a river - now confirmed to be the River Ganges in India/Bangladesh which is considered sacred and purifying (X). Considering the series spans 10 days and is set in Dallas, this scene is very likely a flashback.

Note Ben in the background.

Klaus is also seen in similar attire in a wealthy looking house, which is potentially part of the commune where the cult operates.

Note Klaus no longer has his long beard.

And here’s Ben in what looks like a room in the same house. It's interesting to note that Ben (or the actor) is looking straight into the camera, implying its a first person point-of-view.

Apparently also in ep3 we have this delightful gem of Klaus being Klaus. (presumably theres a pool at the commune?).

Episode 3 also sees the Swedes chasing Vanya in a cornfield until she uses her powers to defend herself.

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Thanks to this, Five is able to track Vanya down (X). It's been confirmed that the following pic is from episode 3. (X)

And based on Vanya's clothes, Five then takes her to a cafe to explain a few things.

Vanya: Are you gonna tell me what the hell's going on? Five: When you were a baby you were bought by an eccentric billionaire. He raised you in an elite academy with six other siblings with extrodinary powers, but in the year 2019 in order to avoid the apocalypse we jumped into a vortex and ended up being scattered throughout the timeline in Dallas, Texas. Vanya: ... Five: Any questions? Vanya: ... what do you mean the apocalypse?

At some point ollowing on from this (but unknown which ep) Luther and Vanya have this conversation:

Vanya: What caused the apocalypse? Luther: ... You did... but not alone. I was part of it, we all- Vanya: How? Luther: You got angry. Lost control, you... blew up the moon. It slammed into Earth wiping out everything.

In ep3 we see both Allison and Raymond actively involved in the protests against the segregation by taking part in a sit-in (X).

Allison: I’d like to be served, please.  Waitress: *pointing to a Whites Only sign* Can’t you read, girl?  Allison: Seven languages.  Customer: Oh, you smart one, huh?  *The door opens and many other blank protesters enter.*  Allison: We’d like to be served, please.

However, it goes badly as "police brutally attack (the) peaceful protestors." (X).

The summary for ep3 says that “Allison reconnects with Klaus,” and in ep4 she is “searching frantically for Ray.” It seems, based on the following pics, that she finds Ray in jail and Klaus & Ben have a hand in getting him out.

Note the word "buearu" on the window and Ray in the background.

Based on Klaus' outfit, its sometime around this point he goes on a massive bender. We see him running with a bottle of whiskey, his gleeful cult following him, and dancing in a drinks aisle.

Note that Klaus is bleeding from his lip.

Following on from this, Klaus wakes up on Allisons floor, feeling worse for wear.

Ben: And how are we feeling this morning? Klaus: Ugh, peaches and cream, how are you? Ben: Curious. How many more rock bottoms are you going to have to hit before you start taking care of yourself?

In episode 4 “Vanya contends with a crisis at the farm.” Could this link to her developing romance as, despite Sissy still being with her husband (X), she and Vanya begin exploring a relationship?

The summary confirms that in ep4, “Five, Diego, and Lila crash a party at the Mexican consulate.” But the Swedes are still hot on their tail.

Note the third Swede in the background, chasing Five?

After surviving this, they return to their base. The following pic has been confirmed as happening in ep4 (X).

At some unknown point the Swedes (or two of them) also go after Allison, though it appears she fights back (and kills one of them?).

"They weren't here to sell vacuums!"

Also at some unknown point, Allison and Luther have a catch up. Based on Luthers partially healed face, this is after his conversation with Vanya in ep2.

Luther: We did it again… apparently.  Allison: Did what again?  Luther: Ended the world.

Also at some unknown point Vanya and Diego reconcile: “I don’t remember what I did, but I’m sorry, if that means anything,” Vanya tells Diego as he threateningly juggles a knife. “It does,” he responds, before accepting her as a confidant he can turn to for advice on how to handle his feelings for Lila. (X)

It appears that ep5 is when the whole family finally reunites. The episode summary explains how “summoned to an emergency meeting, the siblings hatch very different plans for how to spend their last 6 days on Earth.” (I have no idea what order the conversation goes in as each bit is a snippet from a different promo vid).

Five: Klaus, is Ben here? Klaus: No, unfortunately ghosts can’t time-travel. Ben: Are you kidding me?

Five: (I/We) really screwed the pooch on this one, the whole going back in time and getting stuck thing. But the real kick in the pants here is… we brought the end of the world back here with us. Klaus: Oh my god, again? My cult is gonna be so pissed. I told them we had until 2019. Five: We have until Monday.

Klaus: Is it Vanya? Allison: Klaus! Klaus: What? Its usually Vanya.

Vanya: None of us are supposed to be here, right? I mean, what if its us?

Luther: Diego's been stalking Lee Harvey Oswald. Diego: Hey, you're working for Jack Ruby! Klaus: Allison has been very involved in local politics. Allison: Okay, you started a cult! Ben: Thank you!

“We have to make it right again, before everyone and everything we know is dead.”

Following on from this, Klaus, Vanya and Allison have some bonding time in the beauty parlour.

Vanya: How do you guys deal with this? Allison: What? Vanya: I mean all of it. Time travel. Seeing the dead...?

Vanya: I’m gunna tell Sissy that I love her… I don’t want any secrets.  Klaus: Yeah? Allison: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Yes. Cos, y’know, if, if its all going to go tits up the least I could do is be honest with my husband. Klaus: Oh… does that mean I have to face my cult? I just hate group breakups, thats why I stopped dating twins.

“Klaus, Vanya, and Allison end a moping session by dancing together to Twistin’ the Night Away.” (X). Its been confirmed that the following pic is from ep 5. (X)

In episode 6, “Dave visits Klaus’ compound” and “the siblings meet their father for dinner” in a Tiki bar. Its been confirmed that the following pic is from ep 6 (X).

An interview with the cast has them talking about ‘the elevator scene’ and how hard it was to shoot because everyone kept cracking up. (X)

Five: All right, quick run down. Luther; super strength, Klaus can commune with the dead, Allison can rumour anyone to do anything-  Diego: Yeah except she never uses it.  Allison: I heard a rumour you punched yourself in the face.  *Diego punches himself in the face.*  Reginald: *looking at Vanya* And you?  Luther: Uh, maybe we don’t… take Vanya for a test drive.  Klaus: Oh yeah thats probably not a good idea…  Vanya: What, I think I can handle it.  *Despite everyones protests, Vanya explodes a fruit bowl.*

Based on Luther and Klaus’ outfits, the following scenes also take place sometime around the same time (ep6/7).

First, Luther pulls up to a house in an urban area, he gets out the car and has a conversation with a man (X). This is the same house where the three Swedes were seen in their milk-truck at night.

Note the gun and flask on the seat.

Next, Allison and Raymond deal with a body (of a Swede?) while Klaus & Ben don’t help. The summary of ep6 also mentions that Allison gives Ray a peek at her powers, which is maybe why he’s on board to deal with a body.

But what's the big flash that startles them? Well it may have something to do with all this craziness:

Note the chairs and people on the ceiling.

It’s hard to tell but since Ben is there, this could be Klaus being thrown backwards? The outfit certainly looks similar.

In an interview, the cast talk about how the room had to be painted completely white (then returned to normal), and how nice it was for the character of Ben to be able to share a moment with Vanya (X). This implies Vanya looses control and Ben is able to talk her down.

At some unknown point, it looks like the siblings all return to the academy.

Note that the background behind Klaus implies he’s sat in the same seat that he did as a child.

An interview asked the question "You all eat 'brain' at a family dinner..." (X) and in a different interview the cast talk about the brain acid trip (X). Could this be when that happens?

Either way, things likely don’t run smoothy. “Reginald still proves just as capable of preying on their deepest insecurities, while somehow leaving them attacking each other instead of him.” (X)

The summary for ep7 mentions someone named Carl issuing a warning to Vanya, and in ep8 it states that the FBI torture her, so its most likely the following images are from this time:

The tape recorder is turned off...

The figure from behind slaps a cloth over Vanya’s face as she takes on the appearance of The White Violin.

“A dimly lit room... Vanya is strapped to a chair. The floor is soaked with water. At the moment she is being tortured for information... After an electric shock the lights on the ceiling begin to flicker. “‘Is she doing that?’ asks a fearful FBI agent.” (X)

Also in ep7, “Five travels to 1982 to carry out his new mission”. Theres a possibility that Luther is also involved in this as a promo pic has snow surrounding the house, which I don’t think would happen in November in Dallas?

Five: I need a spotter. Luther: What is that? Like a wingman?

The summary for ep8 includes the fact that “Diego discovers what causes the apocalypse.”

“Everything in our new lives is connected to the plot to assassinate the president. That can’t be a coincidence.”

The fact we see the gun Five was going to use to assassinate JFK, implies this scene takes place on Nov 22nd, 3 days before the apocalypse. And we know from the summaries that in ep8 “Five concocts a risky plan to intercept another version of himself.”

Old Five, young Five (who’s still really old Five), and Luther.

However this may not go to plan as the summary for ep9 says, “the Fives plot against each other.”

And the summary for episode 10 is: “reeling from the events at the Dealey Plaza, the siblings head to the farm to help save Harlan.”

MOMENTS I CAN’T PLACE:

Someone flips over a table in what looks like it could be a distillery. Based on outfit and hair this could possibly be Lila, Klaus, or (less likely) Diego. Five is also there.

A similar (the same?) person flips over while avoiding gunfire. There are targets and what looks like training equipment, and the person shooting is standing under a large umbrella.

If the flipping person is Lila, then this may link to what the summaries reveal about her arc: In ep5 she confronts her mother, in ep6 the Handler is mentioned (albeit talking to Five), and in ep9 she learns the truth about her parents…

Five sneaks through a room with a camera and lights. On the blackboard the word “Pogo” is written, implying this could be Reggies house and this room is where he is teaching and studying young Pogo.

Diego walks into a control room. It looks like there might be 2-way glass. Could this link to ep8 when Diego discovers what cases the apocalypse?

Five is seen in a building with wooden panels on the walls.

Based on the background of this shot of Carmichael, the building could be part of The Commission.

“You...”

Five gets buried in rubble. Aidan looks chill about it though.

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Well done for making it all the way!

I’ve tried to avoid speculation as much as possible and keep the language suggestive. I don’t know all the facts, I WILL have made errors, probably many! So please take all this with a suggestive grain of salt, I am just a hooman trying to use her squishy brain.

Please let me know if you spot any errors, think of anything else I can add, or if you want more info about any specific event ^‿^

#the umbrella academy #tua #tua s2 #klaus hargreeves #five hargreeves #ben hargreeves #vanya hargreeves #diego hargreeves #allison hargreeves #luther hargreeves #reginald hargreeves #pogo

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