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byers-bowlcut · 1 year

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I've seen people say El likes the IDEA of having a boyfriend more than she actually likes her own boyfriend, and jfc it's so true 😭 Like it's all over the show:

Season 1

She's initially attached to Mike because he's the first person to give her shelter, food, genuine human care and just,, not calling CPS immediately. Her feelings for him was born from trauma and dependency in season 1. And throughout the rest of the 3 seasons, we don't see it grow past that.

Also I think it's noticeable in S1 that:

She was uninterested when Mike tried to share his hobbies with her

She also did not seem to mind AT ALL when she questioned if Mike could be her brother. He voice is neutral and curious here, not the least bit repulsed by the thought of being siblings with Mike, like girl does not care 😭

Season 2

This season has zero onscreen moments of Mike and El actually getting to know each other further. They were separated nearly the whole season.

What we DO see:

El's attachment and dependency on Mike that was developed from S1

We also find out how El spent a year of her life watching melodramatic romance films. Many other middle schoolers might identify that relationships in real life don't work like those films. But El is fresh out of lab life, she's literally learning the world through this TV, and has now become obsessed with the IDEA of having a boyfriend/relationship just like that.

Season 3

Again, no onscreen moments of El showing interest in who Mike is as a person.

The very first scene we see of them, she's trying to get him to stop singing along to the song they're listening to. She seems to like kissing Mike. But isn't shown enjoying anything actually characteristic about him, like sharing interests with him such as music.

Hopper indicates that they don't do anything meaningful together either. We see here that before hanging out with Max, El had little sense of her own style, her hobbies, her interests- meaning spending time with Mike for months probably didn't involve many talking points did it?

Also in season 3, El dumps Mike with ZERO hesitation. Then she has the time of her life with Max. The most acknowledgment we get that she's oh so heartbroken is a small frown to Max that her and Mike aren't on best terms. And even that doesn't seem so paramount cause 1 episode later she totally dismisses Mike after he explains how Hopper threatened him. She just tells him maybe Hopper was right 😭😭

It's literally ONLY once she starts becoming in danger that she starts clinging onto him again. I feel like we've seen this film before hm.

Like where are any signs that she likes Mike as an individual, and is falling for who he really is, rather than simply being attached due to trauma, and liking the concept of doing romantic things (ie: kissing, dancing at the ball, etc.)

Season 4

This is the season it becomes the MOST OBVIOUS: El loves the concept of a happy relationship and being loved, but not really loving Mike for who he is. And bringing in Will's feelings just emphasizes this point.

To start, El continues doing all these relationship-y things that she did in the start of S3. She has Mike's name and pictures plastered all over her room. She makes a "Mike box" with his pictures decorated all over it. But the thing is: this is all sort of a façade at this point. We know she's BEEN unhappy with him for months ("From Mike! From Mike! From Mike!"). But with all these items, she's basically trying to convince herself that she's in this happy, fantasy, movie-like relationship, like she probably watched in hopper's cabin in season 2.

And then, there's the sheer difference between her and WILL in their feelings for Mike. We see it right off the bat when Mike comes to the airport: Will and El both have plans to give Mike something.

Will plans to give him a painting he worked extremely hard on. The painting is a connection of what they BOTH love: DnD, and it includes their friends who also play the game. It's very personal and immediately touches Mike. What's more is, the painting illustrates the exact qualities about Mike that Will loves: his leadership, his bravery, his guidance. This painting literally spells out to us that Will truly loves Mike for WHO HE IS.

Meanwhile, El plans on giving Mike a fun reunion date. She has the whole day planned out. And immediately: we see that what she wants to do doesn't actually takes Mike's interests and personality into consideration. You can see and hear the strain in his voice when he talks about "burritos for breakfast" 😬

You can see how he's not that relaxed at rinkomania, and nervous about skating, saying he's clumsy. He probably would've much preferred movies and playing a board game, over skating. But El has her own ideas. When she brings Mike to rinkomania, she tries to act really cool about it. She wants to impress him, wants to seem like she fits in and belongs.

Her present was never actually ABOUT Mike, and about loving Mike that she would plan this huge date for him. Her present was about her desperately wanting to have this cool date like every other normal teen girl might, with a normal boyfriend, and make it seem like they have a happy perfect relationship.

And then finally we reach their S4 fight. I find it extremely interesting how Hopper's cabin is framed in the background during their whole fight. It's almost like an indication that her desperate need to be loved by Mike stems from her trying to cope with losing Hopper and the hole left by him, that clearly did not exist when she happily dumped Mike in S3.

In their fight, when the topic of bullying comes up, Mike says he understands her, but El is quick to say he doesn't. She thinks Mike doesn't understand her, but this is just as much her not understanding HIM as well.

She doesn't get the extent of Mike's insecurities (definitely partially a result of bullying), something that Mike later divulges to WILL and not her. If the writers wanted to show us how much El understands Mike and loves him for who he is, her and Mike would work through his insecurities in their rs together, NOT through a middle man.

Overall it's pretty striking that we've never once heard El actually compliment Mike, or articulate, or even show what exactly she loves about him through four whole seasons. I mean...

Attachment to him due to trauma or grief =/= loving him for who he is.

Wanting to BE loved =/= loving him for who he is.

So really in terms of a relationship, what El ACTUALLY wants is the concept/idea of a regular boyfriend, and a happy easy relationship, all in an attempt to feel normal. And that's why we see them fall apart the way they do in season 4, and why Will is currently so involved. Because Will DOES see and love Mike for exactly who he is.

#eleven hopper #mike wheeler #will byers #byler #analysis on el's character and her feelings for mike #anti mileven #stranger things

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fabulouslygaybean · 2 years

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GOD. ALSO IM FRUSTRATED ABOUT THE WHOLE SUBTEXT-BUT-NOT-SUBTEXT THING THEY'VE GOT GOING ON WITH WILL AND MIKE.

#dont rb #no like. look. i don't rlly hardcore ship anything anymore. im super casual abt it and i just do whatever i think is fun at that moment.#but like... what they've got going on with the two of them is frustrating at best.#im definitely not against like.. the dynamic i guess? it makes enough sense. a boy is in love with his presumably Very Straight childhood -#- best friend who also has a girlfriend. he doesn't know what to do but in the end he just doesn't wanna lose his best friend.#ive been there. that's not the problem.#my main complaint is just that like. they can't seem to decide what they wanna do with that whole thing.#they act like its Super Secret Subtext and that its just up for interpretation when it's really truly not.#the scene where he's talking about all the things el must love about him? its SO damn clear that he's talking about his own feelings too #he made a whole damn painting with mike as a focus. he's spilling out his heart in a way that hopefully won't be noticed.#mike doesn't of course because he's a presumably very straight teenager and he's too busy thinking about his gf to notice #mike feels reassured and goes back to focusing on other things while will ends up hiding his face from him and crying #jonathan notices and has a very knowing expression before he goes back to focusing on the road #even if you ignore the super mega obvious scene it's prevalent throughout the whole season #will wants to support his now adopted sister el and her boyfriend mike and he tries to keep it friendly but its difficult #mike ignores him for most of the summer bc he's your standard straight boy teen and is uber obsessed with his gf #he never calls and he ignores will when he asks if he can show him a painting he did and he ignores his worries and advice #its so damn obvious. will is trying to keep up a friendship bc he knows he'll probably never get to be with him but he still cares about -#- him dearly bc they've always been friends and at the very least he doesn't wanna lose that #ive been there!! ive been in that scenario so many damn times!! that's a common queer experience!!!#but the showrunners are always like. Oh But It's All Up For Interpretation ;) Will Is Just A Good Buddy To His Friendly Friend ;)))#also to clarify: i know what the actor himself has said about all of it. im not gonna go after the insta post he made when he was like 12.#he himself has talked about it not mattering in more recent stuff too and that's fine. i rlly have no qualms with him over this.#im mostly just frustrated with like.. the duffer brothers and maybe some of the writers. y'know?#it's just poorly executed. ignoring the elephant in the room ain't a good look. it's not the end of the world but it ain't great either.

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byerseason · 4 days

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why byler is the only logical way to end stranger things: a personal opinion

long post incoming. i've been thinking about what else can they do other than canon byler or is there any logical way which would please everyone. but i genuinely can't find any logical ending.

first of all, let's see the options i heard from people who doesn't think byler is gonna happen.

not adressing will's love for mike, mike never finding out about it and will's arc simply focusing on supernatural part : well, we all know that's impossible. not after spending a whole season to show us his deep love for mike. also it's confirmed that an emotional arc for him is what is gonna tie up the story.

"his love for mike was for him to explore his sexuality, he's gonna have another boyfriend." : they could easily show it to us without bringing mike into it. the byers moving to california was a perfect chance for it since it's a place better than hawkins when it comes to LGBT, they could easily give him a love interest, include him to their journey to find el just like they included argyle and give him a good character arc in s5, just like robin in s4. well, they didn't.

"mike is gonna reject will" : okay, then what was the reason of making him fall in love with mike? did the writers want to write a horrible story for the only gay child in the group? especially after showing us how miserable he feels about mike and how much he loves him? no.

now let's look deeper at the character arcs. my biggest reason to think byler is the only logical way is: will byers

i don't think i have to mention how much will suffered throughout the show and how he needs the happiest ending. they left season 4 at a point where everything about that love triangle is unresolved and they're obviously going to do something with it.

we all know mike is the one who understands will the most. he always been, since the very beginning. we've been shown that their bond is different and special. in a scenario where mike rejects will, we all know this is gonna be ruined. will is not gonna magically bury his love and go back to being besties with mike. and for mike, it's not possible for him to ignore will's love for him and stay friends as nothing happened. it would ruin their friendship for absolutely nothing.they can't simply take the only one who understands away from him.

will said he wants to spend the rest of his life with mike for two times. even if he doesn't have any hope, he desires it. so why giving him a love that he will never have? in this scenario will's character arc is literally "the gay kid always thought he will never have love just because he is gay, he thinks it's wrong and he is a mistake, well yes, he was right! he will never find the love and just watch the other straight people have it. thanks for watching stranger things." will's arc should be an arc where he is proven wrong, where he understands it's okay to love, where he is loved the way he loves, purely. otherwise his character arc is gonna be useless. where did we leave will in s4? he was thinking there's no chance for mike to love him and he has zero hope-- he ripped off the band aid. if mike rejects him the character arc and all the build up in season 4 becomes useless. he was at zero, and he is still at zero.

like i said giving him an arc where he is loved the way he loves was easy to be done without mike but now it's too late. they made it super clear that will doesn't want to be loved, he wants to be loved by mike. mike hurts him yet he still thinks mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all. that's not a simple crush. that's pure love. as a writer of a show you don't spend too much time to sympathize the characters love to the audience -something you never did with your other characters, at least not as much as will- you don't show them pouring their heart to a gift, just to waste it, just to make the character feel the worst they can feel just to make the person they love happy. will loves mike such a way that he prioritizes his happiness over his. this is what is gonna pay off.

the second character whose character arc needs byler: mike wheeler

mike has always been the most complicated character of the show, but most of his actions have no explanation other than him dealing with his own feelings. the show introduced mike as the leader of the party and i think it's okay to say he was one of the main characters in season 1 & 2. what happened after s2? a crazy character downfall. the audience started to dislike him and think he is useless. he didn't have any character development in the past 2 seasons. why? why? why?

because we all just watched him struggling. dealing with something inside of his mind that we don't know.

let's talk about a scenario where byler doesn't happen. this makes all mike's arc about being a love interest since s3. no development, no explanation for his behavior in the past 2 seasons. of course mike is traumatized and never talks to anyone which effects his behavior a lot. but there's still an unanswered question. why is he distancing himself from will specificially? the writers showed us that they understand each other the best, they know each other the best and notice if somethings wrong, so why is he distancing himself from the person who he needs the most as a best friend?

this is where we start to think if the problem is will himself, for mike.

why did we make will fall in love with mike just for mike to distance himself from will for no reason and make will upset? did we want will to suffer for no reason or create an empty storyline?

if mike is not how we think he is, he is going to end the show with an empty character arc who is nothing but a love interest, a side character. if mike ends up how we think he is, he is going to be the best onscreen representation of internalized homophobia. people think he is useless or just an asshole but he will turn out to be a perfectly written character who has his own arc.

people love to say "gay people didn't exist in 80s, byler would be unrealistic." which is completely wrong. gay people DID exist in 80s and they DID find love. did they have peace? they didn't. this is why mike and will are gonna be a real representation. we watched all the real struggles they went through. even if we don't get to see them as a couple, they will know they love each other by the end and that's what matters. and there's nothing unrealistic about it.

#byler #mike wheeler #will byers #byler endgame #byler analysis #byler proof

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thefirstlioveyou · 2 months

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What will Mike and Will's S5 Fight Be About?

Shawn Levy basically confirme/implied another angsty Byler fight for S5.

But, what will it be about? Some think it'll be about the painting, but personally, I don't think so at all. I believe the fight will be about Mike's internalized homophobia; Mike will be afraid to romantically be with Will and it hurts Will.

First off, I don't think Mike would be mad for him hiding his feelings or lying about the painting. The sole purpose of the painting lie is to open a gate way to Mike knowing how Will feels about him. It's a set up. Why would he be mad that it was Will who thought those amazing things about him? He's in love with Will.

Now, let's see the common traits that all Byler fights have:

miscommunication, but they both want the same thing

is about their relationship

mike projecting

happens pretty early on, episodes 3-4

triggered by a shift in their relationship/mike doing something

they are alone

It's pretty predictable that S5 will focus on Mike's feelings for Will and be in Will's position this time. He's gonna be a yearning, gay mess! However, it doesn't make sense to copy every little thing as that wouldn't bring anything new to the table. It would quite frankly feel lazy and boring.

I actually believe they will be honest about how they feel episodes 3-4 (after Mike discovers the truth about the painting, what would be the shift in their relationship), and it will be a very angsty scene rather than a happily-ever-after moment (for now). Here's how I picture it: Will wants a relationship with Mike, Mike wants one too, but he's reluctant to because of the shame and bit of denial still lingering.

As understanding as one can be in this situation, it's also hurtful to hear on the receiving end. I can imagine it makes Will very upset. After so long of waiting for Mike, waiting to see if his feelings could be reciprocated, he finally gets it but doesn't get to keep it because of the shame Mike feels. Will does indeed feel like a mistake for his sexuality but, as he also states, Mike makes him feel otherwise. So, if he heard the same person that makes him feel better for who he is, say he's wrong for being the same thing he is.... that would HURT Will terribly. In Will's eyes, he will truthfully believe Mike doesn't want him, even if in Mike's POV, he wants nothing more than Will. This is where the miscommunication comes in play.

This is a real thing that happens in many Queer relationships even to today, when one is ready and the other is not yet. There is no bad guy (unless cheating, abuse, etc is involved of course) in these type of situations. You can sympathize with both sides... Which makes this a perfect fight to watch as the audience; it wouldn't make you hate either of the characters.

Some people say Mike’s accepted his sexuality by the end of S4, but I feel like if he did, it wouldn’t really be a good set up for him to be Vecna’d in S5. His struggle with who he is and his relationship with El is crucial to S5. If we keep Mike struggling with his sexuality and his trauma regarding El, this gives a purpose for him to be Vecna'd, which is the perfect way to explain a lot of his character the past seasons. Similar to how Max escaped Vecna the first time, Mike would do something similar (with the help of others, of course). He will have to accept the mistakes he's made, accept past events that were out of his control and accept who he is, or let himself die. Rather than focus so much on saving others or being needed to others, he must save himself now, for himself. He has to finally believe he is the heart. Finally confronting and accepting what he can't change will bring his character and his relationships to a full circle. It would explain his dynamic with El and Will the whole series. He will finally have the self-confidence he lost.

As much as people want Byler to have an established relationship in S5, I don't think that's likely. With a fight already implied to happen again (most likely early on), it wouldn't make much sense? They're a slow burn on top of that... The season is building up to them being together, it's not them already together (at least I don't think so).

The writers can obviously find a different route, but I feel like this would work and fit well. It would save Mike's character perfectly and it connects with the Mike being vecna'd, or at least in danger, theories; It gives it more purpose.

I just can't really imagine what else the fight would be about. It has to be about their relationship and it has to be about it changing in some way. Mike's weird behavior still needs to be explained... so I would think the fight has to be connected to the reason for that behavior. The fight would then be about his internalized homophobia. And if it is, it has to be explicitly about it, not just subtext like S3 fight.

Rather than “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls” and insulting Will, Mike straight up will have to be like, “I’m scared, what if this is wrong? I don’t know how to do this.” “This isn’t right.” This time Mike will be direct how he feels about HIMSELF, but Will would still be hurt because this is the same guy that made him feel better for being Gay…

If this is how the fight plays out, lord hold me because I won’t survive it😭😭😭

#writing this in one go with no revision #byler #mike wheeler #will byers #stranger things

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clarkegriffins · 3 months

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do u ever stop to think about this whole love triangle discourse and end up laughing bc there shouldn't be a discourse to begin with? like one boy wants nancy in his life and says that she's the most important part and the other boy looks like he's two seconds away from being put out of his misery because of his relationship with nancy to the point he's ghosting her and she thinks he's cheating. also do u ever think about how both of these boys talks about nancy? how they describe her? and the reasons they love her? how they see her?

first we have jonathan saying this:

first of all, i love his lack of energy go girl give us nothing (why he looks like he wants to d word, ur literally talking about ur girlfriend 😭) so, that's him saying all the reasons he loves her, and ofc we know that nancy is like that but why he's talking about her work ethic and not about her, like u should all read this post about how much nancy cares about other people and how being a reporter allows her to listen to other people's stories and help them, but jonathan only talks about that, work work work, how she behaves in work, how she is ambitious at work which we know she is, that's not a bad thing at all, i love how determined she is, how she works hard for that, it's actually one of my favorite traits of nancy, but i don't see people (and jonathan) talking about what drives that ambition forward which is helping other people, now going back to jonathan's speech which is even more ridiculous when we watched s3, because according to him he loves how hardworking nancy is, and yet:

wait a second, drop the story? i thought you loved how she's never done a single thing halfway in her life? and then:

anyways, that doesn't sound like someone who loves all these things he listed in season 4, now moving forward to steve, i was talking before how jonathan only said things about nancy's work ethic and not about her and what drives her forward but can u believe that steve does that? and not the fully developed steve in season 4, no, the s1 steve, the one who still messed up from time to time

i think it's very refreshing to see someone describing nancy and acknowledging how caring she can be, how she worries about other people, how she wants to help people, and he sees that, and this isn't even a big speech bc good knows narrative wasn't at their side in s1-s2, it's just crazy to me how there's scenes of nancy being there for jonathan in awful times (when will was being possessed, she held his hand, she was there, and yet not a single thing about that, about how much she's caring and protective) it's just sad bc do u see how she describes him? "caring, compassionate, protective, never back down from what's right (only when he wants to lie to her countless times i guess)" how could he not do the same for her? THE nancy wheeler who stood in front of A CAR to protect him and her friends when billy was about to crush her, and you know this isn't just an issue with jonathan, i feel like this is an issue with the fandom too, i feel like the fandom only seems to care about that side of nancy, like her career is the only thing she cares about and nothing more, and that's just isn't nancy wheeler, but then again, she's one of the characters people misunderstand the most in st (just like her brother, i guess is the wheeler's curse) we have 14 year old mike wheeler listing how much he loves el on her bad days, on her good days, with her powers, without her power, for exactly who she is, and all jonathan can say about his girlfriend is "she works 👍"

#stranger things #nancy wheeler #steve harrington #stancy #nancy x steve #anti jancy #anti jonathan byers #again not really bc i don't hate him #i just think his character is just a big mess and hell i don't see how the duffers can fix that with only one season left

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chirpsythismorning · 7 months

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Some of the evidence supporting Mike not being in love with El is brutal. No, but seriously.

In s3, when El's leg is injured, instead of Mike putting his arm around her waist, allowing him to take some of the weight off her injured leg, he puts his arm around her shoulder, basically having the exact opposite affect of taking the weight off of her, instead just adding more weight for her to have to carry.

Now, I’m not coming at Mike here, I’m actually coming at the writers, because this choice here has everything to do with them using this gesture to signal Mike’s lack of feelings for El, even at the expense of realism.

I say this bc any person with common sense, including Finn and everyone around him and Millie filming these shots, would've known it looked unnatural for Mike to be adding more weight onto El as opposed to taking some off of her.

This means that what Mike did here, Finn was directed to do, and therefore it was for a specific reason.

And we know they could have easily made the opposite choice, because they show us Max AND Lucas doing it.

See how putting an arm around El's waist looks so much more natural? Because homegirl is injured and clearly needs help taking weight off her leg to qualm some of the pain she's experiencing there, which is why Max and Lucas are shown here doing it the correct way.

And so, why can't Mike do the same? Why are the writers making a point to show Mike being incapable of simply taking some weight off of El, instead doing the exact opposite?

I don't think it's as deep as Mike not being able to do something intimate, and that's bc, again we see Max and Lucas doing it.

I honestly think what they're trying to convey with this choice here, is that Mike thinks he's helping El, when he is in fact doing the opposite despite his best efforts. The implications of that and how that sort of aligns with their romantic relationship and what it leads to at the end of s3, going into s4, is pretty spot on.

I do think Mike thinks he's doing the right thing by being with El instead of voicing any doubts at the end of s3, because he is under the assumption that she is in love with him. I do think he believes he is indebted to her and that this is the least he can do after everything they've been through together, which has mostly been riddled with romantic pressures and so continuing that instead of disputing it seems like the only option anyways. Not to mention, he does care for her deeply, so it's not hard to imagine that he's a teenage boy confusing deep care for love (he literally tells us this is his problem when he can only say care and not love to El's face... but that's a whole other conversation).

Still, when it's all said and done, Mike's not actually doing El any favors by being with her romantically, if that is not what he truly wants.

Because that's the sad truth about all of this, which is that you would never want someone to be with you just because you want them. If you knew that they truly couldn't have those feelings for you, you'd want to know, right? You don't deserve someone just because you have deep feelings for them. And I think there's so many layers to this idea, bc many people are capable of not giving Byler a chance bc they truly believe Mike could never return Will's feelings. Will also feels this way atp, so though it hurts, he rips the band aid off, because he would never want Mike to be with him just out of pity or something. No one would want that. And so it all really comes down to who Mike truly loves romantically and wants to be with. And the right thing to do, even if it hurts someone, is to be honest, because being with them just bc you think that will make them happy is never going to be enough if you aren't truly feeling it, or worse, feel it for someone else.

We see how Mike's inability to be honest with El at the end of s3, leads to a season of Mike feeling deeply insecure and undeserving of the love El has to offer him, and even though he does try, he always comes up short. Despite Mike putting up this front that they are the perfect couple, the details are telling us something is off. And it gives him away.

Another example that I think is very similar to this loaded gesture from Mike to El in s3, is the scene in s4 when they hug in the airport.

Common sense ppl, picture this: You're reuniting with your long distance girlfriend. Then suddenly, she runs up to you, with her arms wide open, and instead of opening your arms wide to embrace her properly, you take the bouquet of flowers you brought her as a gift, and shove them against your chest just as she approaches to hug you, effectively squishing the present you got for her (a pretty delicate present at that) for no reason other than to... what exactly?

Like?? El isn't even squishing the present Mike, she's trying to hug you, dude! Your gf is trying to hug you properly and you threw the gift you got for her in between you so you could throw in a careful! x3??

Again, this has less to do with Mike's thoughts and reasoning behind this gesture in a literal sense, and more to do with the simple fact that this is a narrative choice! Mike is not a real person! There are real people sitting down and writing this and actors are having to do multiple takes to act it out. What feels natural for a situation is going to be what is often chosen 9 times out of 10, because of realism and wanting the audience to see stuff happening that is believable. That 1 time though, when it's not being done the way it would usually be, is usually because there's a specific reason for it.!

So the question really is, not why is Mike doing this, but why are the writers having Mike do this, and what message are they trying to convey about Mike's feelings based on his behavior, in these moments where he's just not capable of committing to El genuinely, one way or another?

#byler #no but most of the gay subtext is just so like... you really didn't have to do all that?#gay subtext at the expense of realism? check #mike thinks he's helping el by not breaking her heart and just being with her despite feelings for will he can't deny #very reminiscent of mike's 'maybe you thought you were helping but you weren't. you hurt me! what you did sucks!'#i do think it would be epic too see that moment come full circle but with el saying it to mike this time #bc i'm sure el would much rather have her heartbroken finding out that mike is incapable of loving her romantically #than to find out he was with her bc he didn't want to hurt her even at the expense of his own happiness #like no one wants to have someone be with them out of pity or obligation #we want someone to love us truly and deeply and genuinely!#we see how much el struggles in s4 bc of all the hints she's getting from mike that he doesn't genuinely love her #bc that's the most important part of a romantic relationship #it being equal #and it didn't feel that way #sure she's gonna be pissed #but she's gonna be more pissed he wasn't just honest #friends don't lie obvs

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starbylers · 1 year

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Mike ‘rejecting but accepting’ Will cannot co-exist with Will getting a happy ending

Even when I try to genuinely picture a scenario in which we get an ‘I accept you’ ending to Byler (it’s not happening this is just a thought exercise lol) I just…can’t? It's impossible to do without sounding like someone who's never read or written a story in their life:

Mike says 'You'll always be my best friend but I'm straight and I love my girlfriend sorry' and then what? They just never talk about it again? Ignore the elephant in the room every time they're together? Mike can't do anything to help Will with this, other than distance himself to make it easier but it's practically confirmed they will be a team next season so that's not happening. Will is not a robot, he won't just stop loving Mike because Mike says he's straight. Will already believes Mike is straight and in love with El, and yet his feelings are strong as ever. They won't just disappear, it would take time and active effort.

So if this 'rejection' happens early in the season (giving Will actual time to feasibly move on), if his arc was really to 'get over Mike', is he just going to hang around the rest of the season feeling sad but trying to forget about it? So it's just another season of Will being in unnecessary emotional turmoil...and then one day he just kind of does forget about it and the storyline fizzles out? What even is that. Like try and picture how this would actually play out on screen, it's ridiculous to even consider.

The only solid place Will's acceptance story could go after confessing to Mike is coming out to his family (and hopefully the party) which we obviously all want for him and I hope they get a really beautiful scene, but the problem is the audience knows everyone will love Will no matter what (he might not know, but we do and we are the target audience here) so there's no stakes. The only real stakes in Will's coming out from a storytelling perspective is how Mike will react (it’s the only uncertain variable), and if we get this very early on in the season (giving Will time for a believable 'moving on' arc) his storyline would be incredibly anti-climactic, it would have peaked and have nowhere else to go. It's not like he's going to date someone else.

And if we don't get the 'rejection' early on, Will won't have time to feasibly get over it (especially since we already established that being rejected and moving on would not be an automatic process for someone as unconditionally in love as Will is with Mike), and he would inevitably end the season unhappy. But we know that's not happening so...

And no him getting over it during the time-skip is still not logical or good storytelling, it would be a cop-out and an unsatisfying plot device. Like Will confesses and is rejected by the boy he loves then it’s the next episode and he just doesn’t care anymore and the whole storyline is dropped? If it was an early season time-skip, then he’d have no real personal arc for the rest of (majority of) the season. If it was a mid-late season time skip, we’d still have him either pining or trying to move on (which is a painful and hard process for anyone) for the whole pre-skip, depending on when exactly the rejection occurs.

It's not that Bylers think Will couldn’t ever be happy without Mike but it's that the narrative as it's set up is not going to accomodate that whilst also adhering to basic storytelling principles (and without the writers letting a gay character constantly suffer with no pay off). He will either end up with Mike, spend the season hurting/pining/struggling again but by the end it just sort of fades into nothing (‘moving on’), OR they will drag his unrequited love to the final episodes guaranteeing his unhappy ending. Anything else would be nonsensical and unrealistic aka him just being fine and happy and completely over it right after he's rejected. Or them completely forgetting about the build up of this storyline with the excuse of a time jump, cutting short his personal arc and leaving the character with nowhere to go. These are literally the only options for the end of Will's story, and the only one that is happy and is objectively the better-written story is Byler.

#byler #I wrote this during an exam help

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digoload · 6 months

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the paladin line up!!! (click for better quality)

This is a part of my voltron AU that I already did a bit of art on this here. i'll probably update my foolish design at some other time but there he is for now.

Under the cut -- my reasons for these particular characters, plus some sketched story ideas i had for them/their backstories prior to canon.

(also, yes - qtubbo tucks his jeans into his socks)

Green Paladin - Tubbo. He's green already, fantastic. Also, a nerd like Pidge and naturally curious. I considered other Create-oriented QSMPers for green lion but I think Tubbo fits the best!

Yellow Paladin - Missa. For a while I was gonna make Forever the yellow or blue paladin, but then I realised the whole cast would be wayyyyy too zany or weird. We needed a sturdy, relatable character. Someone who was scared. Someone who didn't really want to be there. Someone who would have an unlikely romance with a menacing purple rebellion-leader alien in space. I knew Missa was perfect for the job.

Blue Paladin - Etoiles. We don't know the specific qualifications for someone to be the blue paladin (thanks Lance), but there are some clear similarities between Lance and Blaytz (I know Allura doesn't really fit with the pattern towards the end of the series, but work with me here), so I sort of made up my own requirements. 1. screams with joy when they get to pilot their lion. 2. dogboy. 3. ready to throw down. (season 1 allura fits all 3 of these, but arguably not really towards s6-7-8). I kinda relate him most to Blaytz out of all the blue paladins.

Red Paladin - Roier. You KNOW it had to be Roier. Who else. Literally who else. The man is red. Ready to throw down. Trusts his instincts. Angsty backstory. Right-hand to the guy who takes the lead in most situations. Also, just in general, I have a vivid vision of qroier in the red lion's cockpit. He could totally pull it off.

Black Paladin - Cellbit. The other characters I considered for this role were bbh and philza, but in the end I liked them more with having alien roles mainly due to their backstories (BBH as an immortal soul-guide demon and Philza as an avian). I just think that Cellbit would fit this role better. He already sort of heads the Order, is associated with the colour black as well. But most of all. I think there's a lot of potential for an angst arc where he goes off on his own for some dumb self sacrificial reason I guess, or maybe because of his extremeee trust issues, and neglects his leader duties because of this. and then there's a whole lesson learned kind of thing, maybe roier brings him back, etc.

Now for some backstories:

I think Tubbo would follow Pidge's backstory and motives pretty closely, given his penchant for breaking into the federation offices and snooping around (very Pidge-like behaviour). The thing I struggled with was getting someone to be kidnapped by space aliens that Tubbo cared enough about to go searching for. I already have plans for Fred, Phil, and the eggs, and they're the main things that drive qtubbo. Also, ideally, they'd have to be somewhat older than Tubbo in order to be on the Kerberos mission in the first place. For a while, I thought about somehow having Tubbo and Pierre being connected, but they're not super close in canon, even if he would make an Excellent Sam Holt.

BUT THEN I REMEMBERED: MORNING CREW. ITS PERFECT. I don't think they'd be directly related, but Pac as Matt Holt just works so well. I think Fit and Ramon would be rebel fighters that free Pac from the Galra and they sort of fall in love that way, but Mike was on the Kerberos mission too and is still missing, and that's Pac's main motivation.

So I think the best people for the Kerberos mission crew would be Pac (technician), Mike (engineer), and Cellbit (pilot). Cellbit obviously takes Shiro's role (sans robot arm, that's Etoiles' duty later on - this AU would divert from VLD canon pretty early on). Roier never gives up on Cellbit, just like Tubbo never gives up on Pac (and Mike). Except unlike Tubbo, who has to purposely get enrolled at the Garrison as a cadet in order to get intel, Roier is already graduate from the same class as Cellbit. He KNOWS there's a coverup of some kind, but he has no way of proving it. Fortunately, an old upperclassman/ex-tutor believes in him enough that he believes in Cellbit too, and together they get to work on figuring out this mystery. When an alien pod crash lands, they know they've got to get a closer look.

Missa is an unfortunate decontamination unit first-responder who gets in the way. They can't just leave him behind to sound the alarm - he has to come with them while they rescue Cellbit! Unbeknownst to them, Tubbo has already taken out the alarms and is also on his way over. Miraculously, they all escape with their lives, and magic space lion adventures ensue.

I feel like none of them would really have any time to change into casual clothing, so they're all in uniform. Cellbit would probably still be in prisoner clothing but tbh I just didn't think of that lol. Also, I wanted to draw him in a garrison uniform that wasn't detox or combat oriented. There are so many cool garrison uniform designs out there so drawing the same one twice was kinda soul crushing lol. cant wait to show you guys their individual character sheets!!

#my art #qsmp tubbo #qsmp cellbit #qsmp roier #qsmp etoiles #qsmp missa #tubbo fanart #cellbit fanart #etoiles fanart #roier fanart #missasinfonia fanart #qsmp fanart #qsmp #voltron legendary defender #digo speaks #qsmp vld au

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lunabug2004 · 3 months

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I want to preface this post with the fact that I find Mileven completely adorable in seasons 1 & 2. They were truly at their peak and I adore them. I also absolutely love Dustin and Lucas. Now onto the post:

Dustin and Lucas make me so mad in s1 on behalf of Mike. Them telling Mike that he's practically obsessed and in love with El just because he missed one (1) day of school to help a kid who is their age and obv scared/in need of help, then kept her around because he thought she could help them find their missing friend... is insane to me.

I understand that they are kids, and that's why I don't really hold this against them... but it's so frustrating to watch from both a Mileven perspective and a Byler perspective. Mileven because they (or Mike at least) didn't get the chance to come to this conclusion on their own, he was basically forced to confront his newlyfound feelings in the middle of one of the worst times in his life. Byler because if Mike really does suffer from internalized homophobia omg did this mess him up even more. Like "oh, they think I like her so it must be true, right? Maybe I'm not so weird after all." type thinking was probably occurring.

Plus just the forced-ness of it all in general makes me uncomfy.

Watching Dustin say "all you ever wanna do is pay attention to her" as if it's a completely bad thing is so saddening to me, because yes, Mike really does care for El, but he's also so deadset on keeping her around and believing in her at that point because he knows she has a direct connection with Will.

Also Lucas's "El, will you marry me?" and Mike being so genuinely confused and annoyed by it is so telling to me. He was definitely not focused on his feelings for El, romantic or not, at that time! I don't see how he could be! His best friend is missing, he's known El for a couple days at least, and we know the Duffers don't believe in love at first sight (which doesn't mean they can't write it but still).

Idk, I know I'm not alone on this, but the whole situation just feels weird and slightly forced w/ romantic Mileven in s1.

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bugsbenefit · 1 year

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attraction in ST

or. oh god stop stripping the show of it's themes no please no it needs those, stopppp

actually making this post now bc i'm sick of people claiming anything remotely sexual or even kissing happening to the party (an opinion that often pops up in the context of byler) in s5 would be horrible, sexualising, or out of character for the show

ST has always had a realistic approach to kids growing into their sexualities. the show's never shied away from directly addressing sex and sexual feelings so i'm honestly amazed by the extremely puritan interpretation of the show. i'm assuming, in good faith, that a big part of it is coming from people not having seen the actual show in ages and are just forgetting how explicitly the show handles sexuality. instead of just assuming it's from culturally raised christian people, who feel uncomfortable seeing any portrayal of sexuality, no matter how tasteful or realistic

i'm also saying all this as an ace person myself, i get not being into sex and not wanting to see it. however, refusing to acknowledge entire themes of a fictional show just because i don't experience them is bizarre to me. sexuality is vitally important to a lot of the characters and isn't just there to be fun(gross). essentially, ST is the opposite of porn without plot

so just as a little reminder what's actually IN Stranger Things. canonically.

sorry i had this sc for ages and wanted to include it Somewhere, so here you go. at a little starter... dorry

also this is an old draft seeing the light of day now, if anything's worded weird it's bc i didn't read all of it over again so oops, grammar hard?

TLDR: the show has never shied away from explicitly addressing sexuality. buying into the puritan fanon version of the show is going to make your s5 viewing experience worse because that show doesn't exist

season 1

we're starting the show off with Stancy, which is very sexually charged in general. (even in s4 Nancy still experiences physical attraction to Steve despite them having unchanged compatibility) the plot surrounding them in s1 explicitly focuses on Nancy having sex with Steve and later regretting that choice. the scene that everyone remembers, is of course, the "explicit" (not really, because ST is really tasteful with how it shows these teens explore themselves) sex scene

they're in sophomore and junior year of highschool here. around 15 and 16 years old - yet the show doesn't shy away from letting them figure things out. and it's not like this sexual theme is contained in only that scene. it keeps coming back the whole season as Nancy tries to sort her feelings out and deals with the aftermath of that night

also sidenote here while still at Steve and his party: even Steve's friends are very casual with their sexualities. and yes, they can even explicitly mention sex and specific sexual acts, no holding back here

Nancy's character conflict in s1 very much hinges on her sexuality and sexual themes. and it's not like there is a magic you need to be at least this old rule to know what sex is on the show like so many people seem to believe, because even 12 year old Mike seems to very much know what his sister and Steve are up to. he even goes out of his way to use it against her

iconic line! but i've seen insane takes trying to spin this into something not alluding to something sexual. i'm sorry to say if he doesn't think they're full on having sex he at least thinks they're getting very intimate with each other regardless

so not even the youngest characters on the show are "innocent and pure" the way fandom likes to claim when it comes to sexuality. and of course they aren't. real 12 year olds know what sex is, they're young not oblivious

and the following seasons make that even more obvious

season 2

as of s2 the kids are getting more involved with the sexual jokes, not just making them about other people but even being directly involved with those themes themselves. which is also realistic. with 13 sexuality starts to get thrown your way by every possible form of media. lots of them start developing crushes, have no idea how relationships work, etc. it's messy, typical teens thrown into the dating game. (i say all of this from a developmental media psychology perspective thanks uni and not personal experience sorry lmao, i'm a bit too ace to have my own input here)

s2 features comedic and awkward mentions of sex(ual activity) towards Lucas and Max,

older peers giving their 13 year old friends well meant advice on how relationships work,

and has even younger characters play around with attraction/kissing/love as well, which is incredibly normal for kids to do at that age

they're all young and the show treats growing up realistically. while the theme of attraction or sexuality gets more relevant for them (in scenes that are often received with awkwardness by the characters themselves) the show offers them safe territory to stand on. none of them are directly confronted with sexuality and are instead offered people to seek advice from for example

meanwhile the sexuality theme for the older kids is still very much explicit. just as Nancy's arc is still heavily tied to her romance and sexuality (which ties into her non conformity themes - she's an ambition driven person trying to escape the culdesac life first and foremost)

not only do we get another sex scene (this time with a cut away), there's also explicit jokes about it after

sexuality on the show is continuously awkward and messy. Jonathan and Nancy are only 16-17 here - no one really knows what they're doing or what the right way to go ahead is and Jonathan rightfully almost does a spittake here. out of pocket Murray

sexuality. is. awkward. (we get is s2 thanks)

season 3

s3 gets even more explicit with it's awkward puberty sexuality themes

from Dustin talking about how much he likes kissing Suzie (and her liking him not having teeth for it?) which weirds Steve out to the repeating, awkwardly received, "happy screams joke" (which gets a callback in later scene)

sexuality is still awkward for them. it's a realistic approach to what 14 year olds act like and know. they're actively dating by now, they're kissing people And have messy relationship situations. all while still acknowledging knowing what sex and attraction is, duh, of course they know that. but i'm explicitly pointing it out because i see obscene amounts of people claiming the characters are completely sheltered and even implying that they know what sex is would be gross. to that i say, do you not remember being 14???

and while i'm at s3, also let it be mentioned that even the adults are suffering at the hands of the sexuality theme here. Hopper's hookups with random women are focused on in s1, but now that he's getting closer with Joyce they get very explicitly told to just have sex. literally

not putting the whole dialogue in here, i already have too many images because there's so many sex mentions in this show and he really just tells them their mating ritual is painful and they should tear their clothes off and fuck right now

thanks Murray, always insightful

season 4

and s4 has stopped just confronting the kids with the existence of sexuality, but is tentatively starting to explore mature themes more directly - which allows them to tentatively start exploring their own sexualities instead of just having to acknowledge the general concept of sexuality

Max gets to ogle shirtless Steve

Lucas has something under his bed that's never confirmed as anything except "100/10 gross" but had 90% of the audience i saw immediately assume something sexual (magazines or the like)

and has a bunch more direct nudges, from the kids "experimenting sexually" as Murray says

to Argyle explicitly telling Jonathan he needs to have sex with Nancy again

to Hopper and Joyce's escalating make out in a church while shirtless

to visual innuendos (i'm looking at you hose scene. this one wouldn't be such a big deal if there wasn't a genuine moral panic about it last year. which was crazy. people literally had to pretend the scene didn't exist to escape the witchhunting mobs, except instead of being killed for magic it'd be for looking at a canon scene and acknowledging it. crazy times - aside from that there's also more visuals you can take as innuendos in s4e1 which there's already posts about out there so i'm not getting into them here, i'm more focused on the overt textual references)

to Yuir extensively talking about pleasing women and making them cum (I'm sparing you from that, the sc in at the top was already enough)

to explicit graffities all over the place, like here as an example "give me head until i'm dead" which is in frame for the whole phone call and Steve talking about his bitchlesness. and is also some of the only easily legible text (i hope this is readable, most of my screenshots kind of died a bit so maybe you need to look at an actual clip to see the text)

that is aside from the "DRUGS" poster which touches on another point s4 makes. the show doesn't just explore sexuality, it also puts the kids into more mature situations in general (not talking about the deaths, this is a horror show), specifically drugs

Jonathan uses weed as a coping mechanism the whole season and Eddie even sells the stuff in full bags (insane weed selling practices btw, even i know that). Chrissy (17-18) wants to do weed and ketamine. and we also see Lucas (14) hungover after drinking at a party for the first time

the show does not shy away from portraying realistic teen experiences

Murray called s4 very well, the kids pound some bears, smoke some ganja, play nintendo, and experiment sexually

literally. you have drinking, weed, and confusing queer sexualities. they took this list step by step

and all of those pretty normal things teens tend to explore. and i say that as someone who was decidedly not into those things. the ace experience is a bit different, but i can still acknowledge how that period was like for my allo friends and people in general

there is an extreme push in this fandom to reject any form of sexual jokes or references in the show, made mostly by people being uncomfortable with portrayals of sexuality. however, the themes not only still exist, they're also very prominent throughout all 4 seasons and are important to a lot of the characters directly

and it's also noteworthy here to see how ST approaches it's sexuality theme. it grows with the characters. starting out as jokes and being received with awkwardness to slowly letting them figure things out on their own time and turns. an extremely realistic progression and very common for coming of age narratives such as ST. it's a far cry from shows exploring sexuality or sexual themes for the sake of the viewers enjoyment like Euph0ria (don't want it to show up in tags)

based on what we currently know s5 could very well be taking place in 1988 or later which would place the party at around 16-17 years old. going into the season with the fanon version of the show that is completely clean and non sexual will 100% set you up for disaster

ST is very realistic and non exploitative with it's exploration of teen sexuality so there is obviously nothing to worry about in the sexualization department, that's just puritan fear mongering. however, it's very likely that we're going to get more than holding hands or pecks on the lips from the characters that are now older than characters we've explicitly seen hook up before. there could be more intimate scenes or making out, yes. but there's also at least one basically guaranteed vulgar joke in there, all seasons have them

there's no real theorizing or speculation about s5 here, anything could happen and i'm not placing bets, i want the characters narratives to be wrapped up well first and foremost and trust the writers to do it well. however, going into s5 with some of the mindsets i've seen circulating on here and expecting the show to be "clean" and cater to a version of it that's never existed outside of purified fandom could genuinely make you feel blindsided by the shows canon themes

not targeted at anyone or anything specifically, just using this as a bit of a reality check of what the show is actually like after recently rewatching all of it in one go

#stranger things #you see people here get attacked for harmless kissing fics bc it's 'too sexual' meanwhile the canon show has teens explicitly having sex #the contrast is just crazy #lets not pretend half the show doesn't exist just bc it makes you uncomfortable #byler #because it's Relevant in that tag lmao #finally posting this older one (i'm even tagging it bc i'm so brave) since we're finally starting to be able to talk about the show like #you'd talk about any other show normally #and we're ignoring the puritans #sure why not talk more about the canon show

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pinksmonkey · 3 months

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Bylers Are Quite Literate

A Reddit post I made discussing Bylers and media literacy.

Unfortunately my post was removed for being reported too much, even though it wasn't against the rules in any way. I messaged the mods, but I don't know if it'll be put back up, so here's what it said:

I just want to make clear that I mean no hate to Milevens or people who don't ship Byler, I completely respect that people can ship whatever they want and I hope I would receive that same respect in return. There are lots of very smart people who don't ship Byler, and there are lots of smart Milevens. I just want to bring attention to the fact that believing in Byler is not delusional, ridiculous, stupid, or the many other things we're called. Many Bylers are very literate, probably not all of them, but lots.

A lot of Bylers actually have great media literacy, many are film students, writers themselves, or do media analyses often.

This post will specifically be about Mike's monologue to El in S4.

One of my all time favourite analyses (and the best) of the monologue is "'Prove it' I Beg You Read This." by oceanfruit444 on Tumblr.

Unfortunately the post is no longer available because the account which made it was deactivated, but I took screenshots before and will copy and paste the text here:

So, the Duffer Brothers write very complex and, usually, well done characters. They give us a trait or statement and then they prove it. As a writer, you can never just have a character say "I'm lying right now' to the screen, that would be...ridiculous Imao.

"I wrote a post not to long ago about my writing process, or the writing process in general. One of the things I spoke on was the concept of 'proving it'. I want to talk a little more about that and how that applies to one Michael Wheeler.

Of course, we see the scene in season 4 where Will Is giving Mike his painting and using it to help mend Mike and El's relationship. We see it continuously, even though we know he's in love with Mike, Will coaches him through his problems, gives him advice, etc. We see it in season 2 as well just with Joyce mentioning Will giving away his toy to another little girl who looked sad. That was kind of the time they stated this trait Will had, and then continued to prove it for the next two seasons. So when we say Will is selfless, we have evidence to back up that claim.

With proving it, that is your job as a writer. It works with situations, but mostly comes into play with characters. For example: you give your audience a trait, Will is selfless. How does he prove that and how do other characters give us clues of this trait?

Now discussing scenes with 'proving it', season 4 is very interesting because it's not as subtle as we may think it is. In the van, we see Mike recalling the first time he saw El and explaining that moment.

"It was dumb luck, not fate."

Then we go to his confession, "I knew since the moment I saw you that I loved you."

That moment felt cringy, but also, there has been no proof for this. There's actually proof combating his claim. That whole monologue was Mike looking into the camera and saying "I'm lying right now." The writers of this show are aware of that, because they continuously make sure to prove things, because that's how you create deep moments and detailed characters. If you have a character just spew things out without depth behind their words, it's not going to create a furthering and complex relationship. I mean, it's not even in writing, if your partner said, "I love you" and then proceeded to, metaphorically, spit in your face, you wouldn't believe that because you know it's not true.

Throughout season 4, Mike can't say I love you to El, he gaslights her, he calls her superman and that meeting her was an accident. He doesn't prove anything that is said in the monologue, and the writers know that, they want people to pick up on it.

'I'm not scared of you'

Mike proves the opposite of that in rink-o-mania. He was scared of her, and El proves that to us by saying you think I'm a monster too.

'My life started the day I met you.'

That just doesn't make sense because he literally tries to jump off a cliff. Apparently his life didn't need to last more than a day.

The love confession, from a writer's stance, cannot be evidence for a solidified relationship. Mike and El had not been together since their big fight. So, as we know. the feelings Mike was responding to weren't El's, they were Will's.

So then you get into another conversation of, was the love confession for El in the first place? Because in both Will's and Mike's confessions, El is the center of it, the middle piece. The writers could be trying to tell us many different things with that. They both give confessions, so are they attempting to allude to the fact that Mike and Will are both doing the same thing?

People are desperate for answers, it's a worldwide trait, so we ask many questions and we are supposed to when it comes to consuming media or any kind of storytelling. Why does he love her? Wait that doesn't make sense, why didn't he just say it in the first place? Why didn't he say it when El was begging him to? Why does he feel like it's a fight they can't come back from if all he has to say is 'I love you'? If he loved her, it should have been easy right? Why did I just waste hours of my life for a plot point that doesn't make sense? Mike said he loved El already, we've already been through this same exact plot, so why is it happening again?

So, what I'm saying is Mike is disproving his points by previous actions. The monologue feels off because as watchers we are subconsciously or, some of us, consciously aware that we were not given evidence for what the character is saying. And we don't like that.

And then, when we get verbal answers, they don't line up or make any sense.

Why? Why? Why?

So, what bylers have right is that Mike is a fake thing (character), he doesn't just get to vibe in his own head and hang out. He has to prove things to us, if he wants to say I love you? Prove it with details we can back up. You want to tell us you love El on her bad days? You're lying to us now because we saw that point disproven.

These characters have very specific jobs and arcs, they're doing things for a bigger reason, not just...cause. I don't think that's easy for many people to grasp onto. So questions writers ask themselves when there's a scene is, what does this scene mean to each character involved, and how can we make that sub textually known?" "Who is this scene for? and how will it farther their arcs'

So, what does the love monologue mean for El? And how will it farther her arc or finish part of her arc? As we know, she wanted Mike to say I love you, Mike needed to say it for that plot point to finally close. But what is the after math.

Now, what *can* Mike's monologue hold truth to? A lot of what he's saying can be backed up if he's speaking to a different person.

Will.

I loved you since the moment I saw you. We can back that up from evidence, Mike made the choice to walk up to Will on the swing sets and ask to be his friend. Little Mike knew that he wanted Will in his life and that he was something special. So we have a check mark there. It was a choice, loving someone will always, somewhat, be a choice.

I'm not scared of you, I never have been. We can back that up as well. Will was possessed by the Mind Flayer and Mike stayed right by Will's side, walking into that shed with a boy that had sent many people to their death. He stayed next to Will's side, alone, when he knew he could be dangerous or even had no idea what he was capable of.

I love you on your good and bad days. Once again, we see that proven. In season 3 Will yells at Mike, is upset and they fight. What Mike does is very important, he goes after Will because no matter what Will said that might have hurt or how distressed Will seemed to be, he still went after him, because he cared about him. In season 2 when they leave Halloween we see it again, Will was having a bad day and Mike sat right there with him, making him feel better.

I love you. I mean, Mike has proven that over and over again. Now, that could be used for both of them, but the interesting point in season 4 is the big discussion on his issue with saying 'I love you' to El. So, something isn't lining up. Again, from a writers POV, Mike doesn't get to say that to El because you are not allowed to expect your watchers to come up with proven points to that on their own. We have to look at the context of that line and find it IN THE SAME SEASON AND PLOT LINE.

I love you. How does Mike prove that to us in season 4? And if you do not have textual evidence as well as actions to back it up, then you're not supposed to have those things. Your job as a reader or watcher is not to do the work for yourself, the writers will tell you all you need to know, if you can't find it, then they're telling you everything you need to know.

Who does that apply to? Will.

I thought that saying it might make it hurt more. This is disproven by Mike's actions with El, he begins to lose her because he isn't saying I love you. So why would him telling her 'I love you' make her leaving hurt more if she didn't plan on leaving until you didn't day it? Lie lie lie. That is thrown in our faces time and time again. He wasn't losing El until he was unable to tell her or write he loves her.

I don't know, I feel like I lost you or something. Mike says the word 'lost twice in season 4 to two different people, or was it two different people?

Mike isn't afraid of losing El, he's afraid of losing Will, and we have evidence of that because he said those exact words. As I said moments ago, the writers will directly tell you things to allow you to prove spoken points made. If you CANNOT back up a claim, they don't want you to.

If something is mentioned or talked about, it's not on accident or to fill up time, it's because it's important. Mike telling Will he felt like he lost him and giving us evidence as to why he may feel that way and then turning around to say it to El doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense because the writers are trying to get us to use our little brains to piece things together.

For a moment I'll talk about the fanfic I'm working on. We see Jane and Mike kiss for a dare in chapter sixteen (I think) and I discuss the placement of his hands, how they both, and what they do. Then in chapter eighteen I discuss Mike's hands again and their placement with detail when he's holding onto Will. Why do I do that? Because I am trying to tell readers there is a contrast to those actions Mike is making. I'm telling people the person he wants and is picking without giving his POV through tiny actions. So what I'm saying is that I can promise the writers of this show are doing just as tiny things.

So my point here is, characters don't get to just say things, they have to be proven and have logical standing or they should be taken as lies. Writing is a system and characters words and lines are thought out. Nothing humans or characters say is meant to be surface level. Not really.

The way dialogue works, is there has to be underlining meaning or message to each thing a character says. So, if you give two different characters the same exact line, they're going to be performed differently because the intention behind the words will be different. Does that make sense?

I love you. Okay prove it to me or you're lying.

I'm not scared of you. Okay prove it to me or you're lying.

As I said before, a writer's job is to give an audience something and then make the character prove it. If they don't do that, then watchers are able, or should be able, to piece together that something is wrong or a character is not being truthful.

Once again, no character will EVER look at the camera and say 'I'm about to lie' we have to piece that together. You know why? Because these stories are perfectly crafted and very much fake. We're not watching reality TV, we're watching a multi million dollar show.

So, I urge everyone to watch this show and think about this 'prove it' mentality and how well the duffers usually do it. If writers want us to believe their characters, then they must prove the points we are seeing or hearing. We never have to give them the benefit of the doubt because they don't want us to.

Mike, Will, El, every character is a puppet on a string being danced around the stage by the writers."

queerest-friend added, "This also relates to the fact that we got virtually no flashbacks during Mike's confession except for one image of El in the Benny's Burgers shirt. Even the camera couldn't help "prove" anything Mike was saying."

This is just one example of the many in-depth analyses Bylers have made about the show. We take into consideration every detail, the set design, costumes, lighting, blocking, dialogue, facial expressions, body language, and more which the creators of the show have pointed out are important and have meaning. Mike is an undeniably queercoded character, because of all of his actions in the show and the clues surrounding him. He's more queercoded than Will was in a lot of ways, and he's more queercoded than Robin. If we were right about all the evidence for Will being gay, and the same types of evidence are being used for Mike, why would one be true and not the other?

That's all, let me know your thoughts in the comments. :)

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spacerangersam · 4 months

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I already made this post, then deleted it, but I can't stop thinking about how repetitive that last episode felt. We've done the Mike's parents are overbearing plot before (also in a xmas special no less, which handled the plotline much better), we've done Kitty being jealous that someone else is getting more of Alison's attention (but unlike with Lucy, she's in the wrong, and it only happens twice. Like, I'm glad they didn't make that a b plot but it also felt weird that it wasn't a b plot), we've had the ghosts being loud and inconsiderate and upsetting Alison so many times before, hell, there was a whole episode about it earlier in the season, Fanny literally repeats her lines of thinking Alison's a prostitute, Thomas does his same old obsession roght to the bitter end, and even Robin struggling to enjoy Christmas felt similar to the xmas special where he didn't like xmas.

I don't like to conflate 'I don't like this' with 'this is bad', and I keep telling myself I must feel this way just because I don't like it, but I can't help but feel this episode was just pretty unoriginal and unsatisfying.

Most of what they did, they'd done before in far better ways and far better episodes, and none of these felt like fun throwbacks. Even the repetition of Fanny's lines doesn't feel funny, it just feels odd. I sincerely just can't really grapple with the decisions they made.

Like, idk, that cyclical nature could, in another show, be purposeful, to show how the ghosts can't move on, they can't grow past that moment of their deaths, but its not purposeful. Its just confusing and a let down. Sure, they give Alison the all clear to go and i guess thats a sort of growth (ignoring the character growth it also undoes in the very same episode), but that's what they wanted in the first place, the very first day Alison moved in. It came full circle, but that doesn't feel satisfying, it doesn't feel thematic. It makes me look at five seasons worth of build up and developed relationships and wonder, what the hell was this evening for? Am I ever going to be able to look back and enjoy the earlier seasons knowing it's all for naught?

Alison and Mike get to move on and have a better life, but the ghosts don't. Sure, she visits, but they've lost their home to the living once again, ones who don't see or hear them. They're just in another cycle of having no control, except for those occasions Alison visits, and they'll stop eventually when she dies. Then they'll really be back to square one. It just seems so unfair to them. Sure, they have each other, but that's all they have now.

This isn't even everything that's piqued at me, and it's probably half incoherent, but I needed to get it off my chest.

#ghosts spoilers #ive tried to be as polite as i can so far and insist this is just how i feel and that it doesnt mean the writing is bad #but i also cant shake the feeling that it kinda is?#i promise ill stop bitching about it soon tho

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