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remythologise · 3 years

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I don't even watch SPN but all the rants got me super intrigued, is it possible to get a layman's summary of what's going on? I think I understand why the Destiel canon confession thing got everyone mad but what happened after? What's the meta narrative everyone's talking about? Was there an expectation of something and they didn't deliver? Just super curious feel free to ignore if you don't have the time x

Hey anon! Sorry for flooding your dash haha. Layman’s summary is as follows:

Of the people watching SPN and shipping Destiel in season 15, most don’t expect it to be canon. A small group of people are providing meta being like it’s DEFINITELY going canon, but 500 times bitten 600 times shy, most don’t believe them. Now I wanna say, this meta - on the most part - makes sense. It does. It just assumes a smarter show than I think Supernatural is.

Season 12-15, from when Dabb takes over as showrunner, is emotionally about building a family around ‘Jack’ a nephilim child who considers Sam, Dean and Cas his ‘three dads’. They love him as a son, textually this is stated many times.

Season 15 is a meta narrative in which the characters face off against God, ‘the Author’. The Author also represents the SPN writers. Many people believed that this meant the end of the show would be Sam and Dean being ‘free’ of the narrative that had chained them, which is, to SPN’s credit, exactly what happened (if executed extremely fucking poorly.) The defeat of God is the one plot point in 15.19 I liked, even if I don’t like how it was done.

During this season and to be honest, many previous seasons, there’s a really subtle Dean/Cas narrative being drawn, and when I say ‘subtle’, I mean like, it’s loud for an intelligent show, but quiet for a CW show where nothing is written subtly. And this season, there’s a beautiful line being strung through about free will, about how Castiel had free will, how he fell for Dean, outside the narrative. Outside of the author’s intention. It matches up with the meta arc.

15.18 airs, Destiel goes canon with Cas’ confession, suddenly everything is on the table. The show REALLY IS intelligent enough to understand that amazing meta narrative; the characters falling in love outside the author’s plan. They really bring it into canon. Suddenly, all the bi flag lighting and weird tap dance scenes in this season make SENSE. And I mean that sincerely; it was like the arc of the season was completely locked into place with this. Everything had a place to fall into. Everyone is very excited for the end, because surely, surely, this being a grand epic narrative where one main character confesses to another, Castiel would not stay dead. The narrative had showed us that Dean loved him, through mixtapes given and unmatched grief for his death and choked off prayers. And tap dancing with lamps, if you read into that.

I think the problem is that the Dean/Cas arc was written subtly by the talented writers who love it, and for that reason it’s far better than anything else in season 15. And I think people wrongly assumed that Dean would be allowed to love a man in return, despite the narrative imperative he return Cas’ love (Cas being a character who has never really been treated the way he deserved, and a happy ending being the antithesis to Chuck/The Author’s desired tragic ending) Which brings us to

15.19 airs, and it’s a complete clusterfuck. The episode itself is the worst I’ve seen, hands down. The writing is terrible, the ending is anti-climatic, they have montages that are supposed to be emotional but just seem like random clips of random characters to completely incorrect music choices. Not only that, but the characters end the episode emotionally OOC in a way I’ve never seen before. At the start of the episode, Dean begs God/Chuck to bring Cas back to life. Chuck has the power to do this; we see this when he resurrects Lucifer from the same place Cas is. At the end of the episode, Jack, despite having acquired God’s powers, resurrects EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, but not Castiel. Castiel is not mentioned, by Jack - the son who adored him, and who he adored - and not by Dean - who had just received a love confession from him, and had not twenty minutes earlier begged God to kill him and Sam and bring back everyone especially Cas. Hello?

There are so many plotholes and canon continuity errors and dropped plot points with 15.19 but let me say the most glaring wrt Cas; in s15, Ruby asks Cas to free her from the Empty. She says it’s eternal suffering for demons and angels there. We know the Empty hates Cas. Lucifer, in this ep, mentions the Empty being a fucking nightmare. And yet DESPITE ALL OF THIS, Castiel is left there to suffer. And the writers it seems are pretending that the Empty is meant to be ‘peaceful’, despite this being mentioned nowhere in text.

At the end of the episode, Sam and Dean toast to Jack and Castiel, to the ‘ones they lost’ and then just seem to be happy and fine with everything. Sam doesn’t even mention his love interest, Eileen, who he had been panicking over being dead. And full smile coming from the man, Dean Winchester, who was textually suicidal last time he thought Castiel was dead. What??? But it really does seem like the family was just broken up without any emotional catharsis and Castiel’s confession won’t be addressed.

As far as we are aware, Misha Collins is not returning and the next ep is a Monster of the Week brother-centred ‘classic’ episode finale.

So basically; everything intelligent we thought was happening in the story was mostly a lie, Dean/Castiel was no-homo’d out of being a beautiful never before seen meta narrative love story (well, a reciprocated one), the family dynamic of Team Free Will was horribly broken up with no emotional coherence or catharsis, and most of this seems to be a poorly written excuse to have the two brothers alone again. Oh, and also, Castiel is an incredibly tragic queer figure who spent the whole show suffering, dying, and serving the man he loved, and got sent to super-turbo-hell for it. And NONE of the dropped plot threads or emotional threads are gonna be picked back up, barring a miracle surprise appearance from Misha Collins in 15.20 - but even then, how do you excuse Jack walking out, and forgetting to bring Cas back to life? How do you excuse Dean suddenly giving up on Cas as soon as it’s possible to revive him again... what, because he’s gay for Dean now? How do you excuse any of it?

#ask #anonymous #spn spoilers #supernatural spoilers #anon really like 'only if you have time' and I'm like. an excuse to rant about this shitshow? you indulge me #boys I swear if I am wrong about next week you can all charge me $100 each in damages I will be so happy I won't care

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wendibird · 3 years

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SPN 15X18 Observations

Let me preface this by saying, I apologize ahead of time if I and/or my notes seem a bit cynical. I’ve had a rough week. (I think everyone has.) But for whatever it’s worth, here are my notes, observations and meandering thoughts on tonight’s episode.

Oh, one more thing though. For episodes 19 and 20 (and anything really to do with them) in addition to my usual tags for the episodes and season, I’ll be tagging them with #dontspoilthefinalhunt for any who wish to avoid spoilers for them.

Pre-Episode thoughts:

So, I’ve heard enough rumors already to know that mooooost likely Cas is going to die this episode. And let me be clear, he’s my second favorite character in this show after Sam. But I have trouble feeling strong emotions for something when I go in knowing that I should. But I’m going to try to go into this one with an open mind.

Also, in the past I liked Billy as a character because though she still had some biases, she still seemed mostly neutral, like OG Death had been. And from previews it looks like maybe they’re turning her into an outright villain like they’ve done with God? Yey.

- Where’s Chuck? Did he just bampf off?

- So he’s gonna blow up in the Empty?

- Yep.

- So now Dean cares about him? (Jack)

- Poor Jack. He doesn’t get what’s going on.

- Yey! Jack is back!

- “You’ve snapped me out of worse.” When?

- They’ve prayed to Michael? Yey for not overlooking options! (Not being sarcastic.)

- Charlie!!!! And yey she has a girlfriend! (Are they gonna kill her?)

- Aaaaaaand there she goes.

Commercial thoughts:

So, I get the whole narrative idea of taking a character that everyone assumed was kinda on your side and revealing that they were always working towards their own interests. I get it. And it can be effective. I still don’t like it with Billy.

I’m glad Dean said what he did to Sam. Even if Sam says (and probably thinks) that he doesn’t need to hear the apology, sometimes it needs to be said anyway. And I think saying it all helped Dean a bit too. He needed to know that Sam understood.

I’m glad Jack’s back though!

- Oh Jack. You’re worth more than your death.

- I’m glad Cas is saying this, but sadly, I think the “we” only applies to him and Sam.

- So Jack is powerless when he came back? Did the bomb thing burn out it all out?

*is confused*

- Yey! Eileen! (Please don’t have her just vanish….)

- I’ma cry….

- Oh no……

- “If I let myself go there I’ll lose my mind. I can’t go there right now.”

- Oh Sam. Always trying to push down his feelings because there’s other shit going on.

- Hug!!!!!!!

- Sam’s gonna drive Eileen’s car. Just shoot me now….

Commercial thoughts:

So yeah… Wonder what Billy’s plan is here with this random picking-off of people but not like, all at once. She COULD do it all at once, she has the personel. (The Empty didn’t kill all her reapers.)

I think she’s setting her own kind of trap or something.

Also, I take it Chuck just vanished? They didn’t say anything about it but that seems to be the impression given.

Still pisses me off though that after bringing Eileen back and only half-assing her role they just had her vanish. (At least Rowena’s in charge of hell, so if she wound up down there again, she SHOULD get a better shake than she did the first time.)

- Donna!!!!

- Eileen’s Car…… *cries*

- Sam’s got so much emotional stuff going on this episode. He’s got this grief for Eileen in the background and he’s worried about Jack and trying to help him, and trying to save all these people.

- OUch……. Double ouch. (Were in references to the expressions on Sam’s face when Donna first comforted him about Eileen and then Charlie made her comment about not wanting anyone else to go through what she did.)

- (Yes, I’m worried about Dean and Cas too.)

- Sam’s still their “Chief”.

- That's weird….. Why does his touch kill plants? (Not people at least.)

- Yeah, she (Billy) was waiting.

- Oh dear…..

- So what IS causing this?

- NO! NOT DONNA!

- WTF?!

Commercial thoughts:

So Chuck is doing this? I mean, it makes sense. He’s gotten petty enough. But now what?

Also poor Sam. I mean, he tries so hard to save people. And time after time it just doesn’t work out. It could be seen as part of “Chuck’s Plan” because of how he wants his big story to go. So now I guess he’s just being more direct about it. Sam isn’t allowed to do well unless it’s been authorized by the Narrative. (AKA, him.) When he tries, he just gets shown the error of trying. (But he’s beaten down if he doesn’t try too. Like S8.)

Also still don’t like how Billy’s character has changed.

- She thinks she’s Freddy Kruger?

- Heart attack? His first “death” was supposed to be his heart. (In “Faith”) Wonder if that’s intentional here?

- Oh god… please don’t tell me they’re going to….

Commercial thoughts:

Okay. I don’t ship Destiel. At all. I’m not an anti though, cause I’m firmly a ship-and-let-ship kind of person.

But that scene while very heartfelt just didn’t do anything for me because it felt more than a bit like revisionistic history. However, I will say, congrats to the Destiel fandom. They killed Cas, but that scene was definitely for you all.

They’re killing off so many people though it’s like… this is one of my problems when I’m going into a situation where I’m “supposed” to feel a certain way. It makes me awkward. (Like the Episode “Lebanon”.)

- Gah, poor Sam.

- WTF?! Is Chuck taking everyone in the world?

- FUCK?! THAT’S WHERE THEY’RE LEAVING IT OFF?!?!?!?

Okay, so my hope is now, since they’ve gone THIS far with what Chuck is doing, that unless the ultimate resolution of the story is going to be “everything goes away forever” they’re going to have to leave some way to bring people back.

I’ll be honest, I had trouble connecting emotionally with this episode. But that may not be the episode’s fault. I’ve been working some long hours lately and I just today found out that someone I work with has tested positive for Covid. (I just got tested today.) Plus with all the election stuff still going on, there’s a lot of real-world things on my mind.

Also, as I said, knowing that these are the final episodes, it’s pretty much a given that things are going to ramp up. (And the people involved with the show have been telegraphing the hell out of Cas’ death, so it wasn’t unexpected. And I get it. Some people really do need that time to prepare emotionally and adjust their expectations.) But I still feel like a lot of the things they’re asking/expecting us to care about, they haven’t put the actual effort into the storytelling to make that happen. I love the absolute shit out of Eileen, but for most of this season she’s been written as little more than an accessory to Sam. And just so he can have some “feels” about someone. And then she gets vanished without so much as a last glimpse of her? (And this episode was filmed before everything closed down due to Covid.)

I mean, his reaction STILL tore me up, because Jared is that damn good at conveying those emotions. But once again, like LAST time they killed her off, it was amongst so much other shit that there’s barely time for him to even feel it. In fact, he even said that he couldn’t because of what else was going on. And by the end of the episode pretty much everyone else in the world is Thanos-snapped too?

And I get it, this episode is clearly not about her. It’s about the whole situation. It just still feels like a disservice to the character.

And speaking of disservices to characters…

So, about what Cas said in his speech/confession to Dean. The revisionistic retelling of history has been strong this season, but that was especially bad. We know from past episodes that Cas has ALWAYS had “a crack in his chassis” and always had sympathy and love for humanity. We know that he cares about a lot of people, and has put a lot of effort into becoming a better being. (Just a few episodes ago he talked about how he truly found his purpose when he became a father. And he also had talked about finding his true family.) But no. Apparently all of that character development was just because of Dean. What bothers me isn’t that he told Dean “I love you.” What bothers me is that it truly feels like Cas’ entire character was reduced to one half of a ship.

Okay, and what also bothers me is that Sam was literally an afterthought in all of that. When for most of these years, Sam has been the one who’s been the most supportive and understanding of Cas. Sam is the one who lately has had the closer connection with him. But naw. He ain’t important, except as an extension of Dean.

And I get they were trying to throw some fanservice to that corner of the fandom, especially since Cas was slated to die 3 episodes before the end. But they could have done it better. I’ve read fanfic that handled Destiel in a more believable way. (I was reading for the Saileen content as they’re often put in as a sister-ship and it can be hard to find fic of them without it.) And technically this wasn’t even requited. Dean looked more shocked than anything, though I admit that's up to interpretation. But someone in one of the discord servers I'm in posted a picture of that part of the script for this episode and it outright said in the directorial notes that Cas said what he did knowing that Dean didn't/couldn't return his affection the same way. So, there is that.

There were other aspects of the episode I also had thoughts on, like, wtf is up with Jack not having his usual powers but wilting plantlife? Some extension of the bomb-thing? Is he radioactive now to anything with “Celestial energy”? But wouldn’t that have made him give Cas problems too? Or is this supposed to be indicating something else? Amara did that too before she started turning lighter, back in Season 11. Is he somehow turning into the Darkness? Or did he come back from the Empty partially possessed by Lucifer? Gah. I don’t even know. I’m just throwing ideas at a dart board now. *LOL*

And at this point, wtf CAN they even do against Chuck? I really don’t know. I’m hoping the next episodes are better, but I know 19 was written by Buckleming and they don’t have the best track record. True, a few of their episodes I’ve actually enjoyed. But sometimes they fall short on writing the Brothers Winchester.

Anyway, I think I’ve probably rambled enough for now.

#spn 15x18 spoilers #spn season 15 spoilers #episode review #my thoughts #some salt #sam winchester #dean winchester #castiel #jack kline #eileen leahy #donna hanscum #au bobby singer #au charlie bradbury #billy/death #meg!empty #character death

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incarnateirony · 4 years

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15.07 Thoughts

1. Y’all know I’ve been very opinionated about certain things, but my inbox has been such a perpetual onslaught that I haven’t had time to really *sit and genuinely write*

2. This is premised 100% off of an expansion on a beautiful post by @heliodean (x) -- or more, I would say that heliodean already wrote most of what I would begin to say, and very elegantly about the text, subtext, representation, visibility, canonicity, but that all as a simple underline to the growth evidenced by Dean. 2b. That is to say, that while the queer text is itself indivisible from the original text, I would like to expand on a few points that are also character-specific, and I didn’t want to kidnap a representation-leaning post to discuss only phantasmally attached affairs.

So again, @heliodean‘s post is an absolute must-read, but building aside on the discussion of Dean’s growth as expressed in the episode, I wanted to focus on some personal John-facing issues.

While helio mentioned Lee’s last advent of Dean being when he idolized John Winchester, which is very true, but I think several of their engagements -- including, yes, the queer narrative but not dependent on it -- are hugely reflecting.

Even if we take, in example, Dean, ass slaps, waitresses and Lee -- a common discussion point is for example that despite open flirtation, Dean dismisses her like she brought his burger over too well done, implicitly. She was there, literally while they talked about double dogging someone down, and despite ass slaps and flirts and posturing, she just kind of vanished into the aether, a thought to neither of them.

How this attaches to the John related issues actually requires dropping a level deeper, when you realize that while the implication is itself surface level text, the words hang instead in old canons, just reflecting at the surface; the sense of history being tangible between them is there for a reason. Even if you took the most heteronormative read on how to double-dick down an ungendered individual, that we hetly decide was female, and that the balls never touched or whatever because *big gay panic* the choice to literally bring that to center discussion after Dean implicitly seemed to forget it ever existed, or act like he didn’t want to talk about it until being charmed by the memory in particular.

Or perhaps, more realistically in the subtext to the *actual text* as expository line everybody is spinning circles on -- quite simply, there were triplets and there was a woman shared between them, but she wasn’t what he remembered. As far as Dean was concerned, there was one woman and, very quite-down-to-point, one man has was sharing. The fact that he happened to have trimmings of a spare woman as a commentary didn’t even plink his memory. *Holy shit*

-- (and let’s be real, MOST OF THIS WAS IN DIRECT TEXT TOO. The only “subtext” is the most liminal understanding that words connect to each other and sentences are usually related to the discussion at hand, but that’s about what people call subtext these days. Dean literally forgot and had to be reminded. I guess “subtext” is applying the working adult brain to figure out how the FUCK you forget who you were putting your dick in. The tryst itself, the bizarre things Dean forgot, these are all... well, text. And the rest is so narrowly subtext that someone missing it out of genuine ignorance and not petty malice and active choice/reconfiguration is pretty much contingent on someone literally not thinking at all)

I’m not gonna heavily debate textuality in this post because at this point, fandom dialogue is a helium inflated parody of itself on most of that, but like I really? Don’t give a shit? How someone tries to move the goalposts around? Seriously grab that whole scene at the table front to back, and then the stage, and show that to some random straight guy you know that doesn’t even watch the show. I’m going to tell you 99.9999% right now the first thing to come out of their mouth is “That’s fuckin gay” or some variation of it into various fields of PC-facing culture. The hilarity of trying to run defense lines for them at this point is somewhere out in orbit in Alpha Centauri, bitching about a whole other solar system of shit.

But taking back to that -- that waitress, that woman that just evaporated. That was a different time. That’s when Dean wanted fodder between him and anyone else he had a deep connection with. That’s when Dean *did* womanize. Did bury himself in skin.

And frankly that’s a Dean that hasn’t existed for a long time while fandom has sat in general denial about it, or the canonicity or *sets off carousel music*

(My mood every time a young bright eyed LGBT warrior thinks they’re doing a service by dismissing, deleting or denying low-visibility LGBT text)

Mutual ass slaps and vigorous bisexual reactions be damned, Lee’s adoration OF John was even brought into text, be it the solemn vigil he held up in his service, or his textual “I’m you” to Dean, and everything old Dean might have become if things hadn’t dramatically shifted gears in his life; but something the *here* and *now* is trying to make him become.

Reaching into the alchemical stuff again, be it Silver And Gold, or Nothing Gold Can Stay, or Golden Time, or now, the monster that spits out fake gold as long as you feed it, and stop caring. The thing Chuck is trying to make them. The things -- the people -- the building treasures in their life of Eileen, and Castiel, and yes, lost several episodes but not forgotten, Jack and Mary; Eileen treasure found anew, Cas a treasure lost that took the last light of his family, and Jack and Mary’s shadows, with him.

The force that broke their chain, the force that was first ready to face authority, because this was not a new battle to him; it had just been given new meaning, many years ago, when he first faced Dean. Dean echoes the broken despair Cas once saw life as from angelic roost, and Cas stands instead for every lesson Humanity taught him, and continues the fight, and walks away from a toxic vortex of destruction drilled and doubled down on by Chuck’s purposeful machinations -- machinations Dean convinced him to break from long ago, but the man that the angel fell for is not who he is now; the fire he gained from Mary went out in her death into the dark and obsessive and introverted blackened side of John Winchester, not the one that, taking his wife’s hand, disappeared into gold.

(Don’t even get me started on the recurrence of this exact shot in Dabb’s SPN, we’ll end up in a whole other aside.)

“Nothing Gold Can Stay.” This is the lesson Chuck has been trying to force down their throats alongside murder suicide. It is our target subversion, but--

This episode fundamentally *exists* to just *put Dean Winchester’s growth into perspective*. Be that textually affirmative bisexuality (regardless of if it’s visible enough for everyone’s taste, which I hold in bizarre levels of wtf question/suspicion), or about the boy of vices and basically casual misogyny and grim habit that has grown into a man that -- while he may remember it fondly with crinkles in the corner of his eyes, he doesn’t flit it to whatever filler is in the seats between them, but to that old “friend” that, you know. *jazz hands*

About his fight with resignation that has griefed him since his first demon deal, and of self worth, and of what he has learned, and of what he will deep down never let anyone take away, even if he’s made to question it.

(Dabb on 14.13 Lebanon and the lessons imbued)

This episode??? Like??? Jeremy Adams didn’t blow me out of the water. I jettisoned somewhere into another galaxy or some shit. Here I am holding tentative resignation about how bad the new (presumed) straight white male author on crew is gonna do while looking at history, but giving benefit of the doubt, making a few jokes??? And then it’s like HELLO YES ALL OF THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE. WHAT KIND OF FIRST EPISODE BLACK MAGIC? THAT WAS A BOBO LEVEL FIRST EPISODE.

Oh my god.

I mean, I’m sure we all saw it coming, like deadass you all know I’m not a genius for saying and expecting -- Dean, lessons learned and remorseful from these last few misadventures, coming in to want to talk to Cas, who has had no such giving and keeps his focus on the target, outside of his perceivably crumbled relationship. Like, expecting this is about as simple as expecting them to fight monsters, or Sam and Dean disagreeing over a method/plan.

But as unsurprising as it is, it held weight and value, after the episode -- as given in my addition to the original referenced link -- spent its entire time framing loss of best friends, empty space, the ramifications of turning one’s back, and knowing gold when you have it and what’s worth fighting for.

Now, to fall back to touching on the textuality topic: I thank 15.07 for the display of performative absurdity. It’s not the first episode to rip open and expose fandom’s dirty underbelly and intersectional marginalization forces wearing an LGBT Activism Suit -- 14.03 also did so loudly by Bobo (eg read: “The Problem with Dreamhunter” [A post that points out what people will accept for canonization when there isn't a rival ship or excessive projection of antis specific to a ship which is *SPOILER ALERT* nowhere near what everyone pretends is needed when they want to argue just to argue and some intersectional WLW vs MLM issues]) -- but it was the first to approach it directly with Dean, much less so textually.

The ridiculous redefinition of words, of “what *I* think canon means” whipped completely out of fandom generated buzz and no dictionary on the face of the planet -- the demands, and the active erasure of existing LGBT text because it wasn’t *visible enough* -- really does show a seedy side of fandom that wears a nice Representation Warrior dress sometimes, but betrays a series of issues:

Most points boil down to “I won’t acknowledge any text unless it is loud enough to argue down any idiot I ever meet”, putting the focus not on representative resonance and value of quality of text, but on personal vindication for raw argumentation. A world where trolls and their personal agendas have actually taken *greater importance* to people than the representative text, and is an absolutely abysmal motivation or bottom line for any discussion and yes, if you recoiled and feel ashamed or called out about that, rather than patching over your pride and doubling down, maybe skim the reblog tags bisexual people have left on my several dozen posts about the damages of them being actively deleted is doing.

If you care about representation, you’ll think about that. Even if it’s not the loudly visible version of representation you *want*, it is what it is, and well--it is. Pretty simply. There is no perfect fantasy world where everybody understands and wants the thing you do. And I’m not just talking about LGBT rep. I’m talking about the people you pretend to need to argue gay canon with still being absolutely flummoxed by canon itself, like them saying “family don’t end with blood” and “found family” are “fanon concepts”. People that are confused where demons go when they die. People that rebuke literally many-times textualized non-gay things just to suit their personal agenda. And shockingly, they have a personal agenda about the gay content too.

I’m talking about straight pairings like mulder and scully that got no romo’ed around even after they kissed and got pregnant and the whole nine, because bawww that’s not what the show is about so *allow me to build elaborate theories that make no sense and pretend they have standing in canon equal to the straightforward read*.

Cuz that’s where we’re at right now. Our fandom is just particularly bonky, and has been allowed to go so far off the edge of the map and away from center GA-resonant discussion that the bog standard antis have literally come up with body-mutilating necrophilia as an answer to avoid the gay, and somehow... *shruuuuug?* people act like these people not only are of equal worth but like... deserve... any consideration long term? Which is when we lean into the next point on MOTIVATION.

So ask at what point arguing with tinhats beat out your actual interest in representation and LGBT rights and media issues. Ask at what point you surrendered your focus on feeling resonant with a character that has been textually acknowledged, and traded that for implying you suddenly can’t relate to the character until he performs [X] exact function, exactly how you want, and when you want. Hell, I have even gotten an anon that literally said they would have acknowledged it if SPN had given them what they want when they wanted-- so basically, too late, not enough.

That’s not how text works. Whether the text came ten years ago or now, the text is the text. Your personal fulfillment aside, text is text. And I highly urge people to stop demanding tokenism above demographic-targeted representative types (eg bisexual, raised in the 80s in a patriarchal/power/grit based society and its own associated dogmas, fairly masculine identity, and so on) or demanding characters perform as if they were from another demographic (be it age or gender) because that’s your demographic.

Once you start removing elements of the represented demographics (LGBT, male, age, origin, etc) and wanting it to perform by way of *your* demographic’s behaviors or base line needs/wants, that’s when we’ve left representation. That’s when we’re demanding tokenization. And when you’re demanding tokenization to win internet fights with people who don’t even believe what they say, you have long left the representation wheelhouse. That’s what we call troll wars.

Do not let LGBT media representation be kidnapped into troll wars. Do not let content be degraded or removed just to engage in troll wars. And if you want to engage in troll wars, and you value the arguments more than the discussion *of* representation intersectional issues, and methods, and all around it -- then just... stop. Stop saying you want representation. Don’t.

I’m tired.

#supernatural #spn #meta #my meta #pagan life #gold #alchemy #hermeticism #jeremy adams #15.07 #dean winchester #mine

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life-love-geekculture · 5 years

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SPN 14x20: a few (i.e. many) thoughts

Writers lie.

But, they lie in order to tell a greater truth.

At least, that’s how the proverbial wisdom goes anyway. After this episode, however, I’m not entirely sure I know what Chuck’s truth is supposed to be.

“Endings are hard. Any chapped-ass monkey with a keyboard can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible.”

That’s my all time favorite quote from the series. Along with the addendum endings are a raging pain in the ass. Ever since his introduction, I’ve always felt an affinity for Chuck’s character. He’s a writer. So am I. He vocalized a not insignificant part of that experience. Reconciling the pain characters you create and love have to go through to get them from point A to point B. The difficulty in wrapping up a story. Hell, critics. It’s one of the reasons Metatron always drove me a bit nuts during his play at godhood. All of the technique, but none of the artistry.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is Chuck’s turn to villiany hurts a little. It’s brilliant beyond all belief, don’t get me wrong! What better way to get across the theme of free will on a meta-narrative level? But within the SPN universe it just feels anti-thetical to the story he’s been “telling”. An honest to god betrayal of it.

Don’t get me wrong. I can buy the avoided apocalypse (the first one at least) was Chuck’s intent all along. He wanted Sam and Dean to choose family. He created free will so it could be used. It plays seemlessly into the parental metaphor they’ve also attached to him. The kids have got to grow up sometime. And part of growing up means cleaning up your messes on your own. Which the Winchesters do...a lot.

This sudden shift in attitude,though, just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s less writing an ending as crumpling the document and throwing it away. If the multi-verse is supposed to represent drafts, then Chuck is the kind of writer who keeps ahold of them because some element in one could make another better (and now bringing all the alt-hunters back make sense on a meta level and my head hurts). The point is, if SPN is his final draft or his favorite why destroy it?The characters’ didn’t do what you wanted ? That’s half the fun of being a writer! The unexpected twists of creation! Inspiration turned to life! It makes no sense.

And so I tried to look at it from the God-angle perspective and it still doesn’t make sense. Chuck doesn’t change. Like he told Lucifer he’s pretty much the same as he’s always been. Yes, there’s the Old Testament’s wrathful side. The fire and brimstone and punishment, but even in the Bible that’s balanced with compassion and forgiveness. There’s the Chuck whose solution has always been: build a bigger box. The one who fought for creation to be born. Not made, born. The one who could be reasoned out of apparent wrath because the point was the lesson (the truth) he was trying to get across. And then I remembered his exchange with Castiel...

Chuck: See this is why people need to lie. It’s good. Keeps the peace, you know?

Castiel: Seems like an odd stance for...you.

Chuck: Is it? I’m a writer. Lying is kinda what we do

Chuck is God’s lie.

That is, it’s the mask he wears to keep the peace. It’s his way of walking away and letting the kids learn (and in many ways blossom) for themselves while still supervising. It’s something Metatron calls him out on when they meet in season 11 to discuss Chuck’s autobiography. Specifically, Metatron notes the emphasis on time spent in the Chuck persona was being used to hide the truth. And, it’s a truth Chuck readily confesses to Sam in the Bunker.

Jack told the universe to stop lying. Chuck comes back immediately in full father-mode. The father who demands obedience over the growth of the children (hello, season 1 & 2 parallels). These are not coincidental. Now, sure Chuck could fix creation, but could he do the same for himself? Evidence suggests...not so much. And, based on the look Billie gives Jack in the Empty, the kid done fucked up something. That was not a happy look.

So where does this leave us?

Well, with a zombie apocalypse in the immediate future and lots of ghosts to deal with next. More importantly, though, it looks like the boys may be on a mission to stop or save God himself. It’s...it’s a hell of a way to go out. The writer in me is very proud.

Before I wrap this up, though, a few thoughts on TFW 2.0:

First, I called it with Dean. Again, not a surprise. As I said, he needs to get to the edge before he can back off from it. That said, this episode wasn’t without some painful moments for him. As some of you may know, I’ve started rewatching and reviewing old episodes of SPN in preparation for the series finale. A bit serendipitous given recent events, but as part of that I rewatched episode 1x03 recently. Dean’s speech about Mary being his hero is so similar in tone to the speech he gives Lucas (the kid with the psychic link to the lake ghost) about his belief in Mary wanting him to be brave. It physically hurt to watch. The facade hiding the pain of Mary’s second death publicly cracking in a way similar to the facade hiding the pain of her first. But it also made me really excited to complete this review series and pull out those hidden parallels. Also, don’t think for a second I won’t point out how much of a nerd Dean really is. I have said it for years and now I feel vindicated!

On a more serious note, I don’t know what to say about Jack. Seeing him dead hurt (the only tears I shed in the finale to be honest). But this season left off with so many unanswered questions. Just how powerful is this kid? What are the Shadow and Billie planning? What is with Halucifer 2.0? How the fuck do souls actually work? And I’m still trying to get my head around his self-prophecy to Cas. A perfect world has always seemed, again, anti-thetical to the point of the story. The power of choice means things can’t be perfect and the only way to bring about perfection is to rob creation of choice. It’s a constant battle the Winchesters have had to fight. I’m cautiously intrigued to see how this storyline is going to be fulfilled.

So let’s talk about Sam. I knew the kid was in a bad place going in to this episode, but...DAMN!

I’m pretty solidly in the camp he wasn’t intending to kill Chuck with that wave of multi-dimensional hoo-haa. Sam’s only ever been that bad of a shot during the trials when he was sick. Still the fact he even tried it...This might be the one thing I can’t forgive Dean for this season. Even when the boys have been at their worst, Dean still allowed Sam to talk.To get his grief out. There’s been no relief since Mary’s death and Sam’s journey has inevitably played into a point I made reviewing Absence(14x18). The boys are used to dealing with death as a matter of consequence, not an accident. Which is why Sam is currently blaming himself for what happened. While it’s true Jack’s storyline for the season contributed towards Mary’s death, it’s something that could have happened regardless of if he had a soul or not. There’s no cosmic choice involved. But add it to the list of things that have gone wrong this season, and it makes sense for Sam to shift the blame to Chuck when he realized he’s been watching and apparently not doing anything (something we’ve known about Chuck for practically forever).

It’s something people do when bad things happen all the time in the real world. Chuck could have been less of an ass explaining why he couldn’t help, but he’s sorta not...wrong. Assuming he didn’t interfere with Jack to kick this mess off (and I hope to God that is not the case), it all goes back to free will. Sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes Someone makes a stupid mistake in the heat of moment, and you just have to live with the aftermath. That said, I just kind of want to wrap the moose in a bunch of blankets and keep him protected in the Bunker forever and...

And so finally, we come to Cas. My sweet, awesome fucking angel/best dad in the whole universe. Cas wins the whole season! Give him all of the awards! The poor angel has been putting out fire after fire and I love him for it as much as I’m still terrified for him. It does crack me up a little that everyone got so pissed at the boys last episode for the Ma’lak box, and yet Cas is literally thinking of putting Jack in the Cage this episode. Like father, like son I guess. Yet, it’s clear his intention is to save him. Cas isn’t blind to the danger Jack poses, but his aim is to just contain him till a cure can be found. Not a great solution but the only one we have at the moment. And can we talk about that scene in the graveyard! Perfect imagery of a father being strict but compassionate towards his son who screwed up. All of the awards! All of them!

#supernatural #spn #spn spoliers #moriah #spn 14x20 #I didn’t mean to write a novel #spn: a few thoughts #spn in review #chuck #castiel #dean winchester #sam winchester #jack winchester

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mittensmorgul · 5 years

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In 12.23, Castiel said he saw the future, that Jack would pretty much save the world "And it is a world without fear and without suffering and without hate." We've all wondered if they'd ever bring Jesus into this show. What if Jack is basically Jesus? It's not a perfect fit, but he's the grandson of God, born to a mortal woman, raised by stepdad(s), and God decreed he had to die. So maybe what Cas saw was true, and Jack will eventually come back and save the world. Thoughts?

oh wow, there is actually quite a lot to unpack here...

Needless to say, I am HIGHLY dubious the show wants to have an explicit messiah figure, you know? After everything the characters have been through in the name of Free Will, the notion that some ~other~ character would magically have the power to save them all-- even if it is the mirror character for all three of them-- it seems kinda... I don’t know... disappointing, I guess? At least to me...

The show has ALWAYS been Winchesters against the Supernatural, you know? Plucky lads against fate and the whole order of the universe, in the name of humanity.

Eh, it just rubs everything the wrong way to have a character-- yes, even Jack-- pop in at the 11th hour with some woo-woo and save the day. It’s cheap.

Not to say that wouldn’t happen, but heck...

The vision of “The Future” that unborn Jack gave Cas in 12.19 may very well have been the happiness at the end of the road, but hoooooboy to assume that’s the only important thing here kinda negates everything we’ve actually watched happen between that point and now. Because the show has explicitly told us how souls are ultimately judged, you know? How human lives are measured-- not by someone sitting in judgment of them, but personally based on their actions and choices throughout their lifetime.

Billie’s books write and rewrite themselves as different choices are made, you know? Even if Unborn Jack actually gave Cas a true vision of the future... Jack-- who, remember was basically Jack’s power acting in self-protection, claiming Cas as his guardian and caretaker, and not, like, intellectually understanding what true human happiness looks like and seeing the actual, real future, because Jack still doesn’t know what those things look like now that he’s been born.

We’ve watched Jack struggle for the last two damn years to understand good and bad, right and wrong, learn to understand what human love and family are. I will NEVER believe that fetus!Jack actually understood any of these concepts enough to project some fundamental truth into Castiel’s mind that would’ve led him to abandon Sam and Dean at the gate to Heaven when Lucifer’s last Prince of Hell had just been murdered on that spot. And then after his birth Jack just... ~forgot~ any of what he’d related to Cas to convince him to become his caretaker. I mean... nope. Nothing about Jack’s ongoing difficulty understanding what it means to be human will ever convince me that he actually knew what the fuck before he was even born. He’s still confused when he gets caught out in a lie, you know? He was baffled as to why his grandmother would be angry with him for deceiving her. That’s not a being that could’ve delivered a true vision of “paradise” to Cas, unless he was picking up on what CAS has always thought was “paradise” and reflecting it back to him...

(and even CAS doesn’t get-- and definitely didn’t when he was in his depression spiral of feeling useless and needing to get a “win” for Dean back at the end of s12-- even he doesn’t really get what happiness might look like for real... he didn’t even think he really “belonged” in the Winchester family yet! He believed playing their PROTECTOR was all he was to them-- USEFUL. And hoooooboy is that so not the whole truth. A world without fear, without hate and suffering? Sounds peaceful, but it definitely doesn’t sound like freedom, you know? So any reflection of what HE might have wanted most back at that point would necessarily be affected by the fact that he had lost his faith in himself.)

I mean, if Jack had actually been born innately understanding humanity, then maybe... maybe I’d believe it, but that’s never the story we have been told.

And the show itself would seriously need to redefine the ongoing concept of “paradise” that we’ve always been given, which has always boiled down to the absence of free will, like we were shown in 14.15 when Chip manipulated the entire down via mind control into HIS idea of “paradise.” In order for him to achieve that, everyone else had their will erased and replaced with his own.

A world without fear, suffering, and hate is probably a world with a hive mind consciousness, sadly to say. It’s not a place where Free Will can exist. It’s a child’s ideal. Because a world without any of those negative things is also a world without joy, pleasure, and love.

Hi, we live in a duality. It’s not all bad, but it’s not all good, either. How long has it taken for Jack to understand that the world isn’t black and white, but entirely shades of grey? AND HE STILL DOESN’T UNDERSTAND.

“STOP LYING!” As if it was just that easy! If lying is “bad,” and hurts people, then it shouldn’t exist! But truth-- which is supposed to be “good” can hurt people so much more. Even little things where the consequences are non-existent, we often lie to spare others’ feelings, or else just keep the truth to ourselves.

“It’s so good to see you!” when someone is thrilled to see you, but you’re kinda meh about it. Maybe you were hoping to be dressed better and not frazzled after a long day at work. Not a world-shattering lie, but it makes the other person feel good, and that in turn makes US feel good.

“You look really good!” Maybe it’s clear they’re wearing a new, special outfit they seem to love. Maybe they have their hair done up fancy. And you think it’s kinda silly, but they look happy, so what’s the harm in commenting on their happiness?

In those circumstances, the truth would just be pointlessly cruel, you know? And that’s no way to go through life. No one wants to live in a world where brutal honesty is all that’s on offer...

In Jack’s ideal of paradise, the one Cas spoke of in 12.23... that’s what it would look like.

Sometimes the pleasant fib is better...

So if the show itself uses different language than it ever has in the past to redefine what this concept of “paradise” even is, then yeah, I could get behind that. But until then, it’s as naive a dream as Jack’s understanding of the world has been.

And I can 100% guarantee that Jack will be back. He got the extra deluxe Welcome To The Empty Committee waiting to chat with him. My guess (and this is 100% conjecture and not a guarantee here) is that he’ll be reunited with his “burnt up” soul and returned to Earth. My personal guess is that he will truly be helpful to TFW over the course of s15, but I just don’t know if I’m comfortable with the notion of him being a savior to them all. I’m thinking whatever happens by the end, it will truly be a team effort. Or else what else is the purpose of their final Big Bad being the biggest anti-Free-Will force in the universe?

(yes, Chuck created free will and included it in the kit, but he’s been manipulating and interfering with the Winchester’s lives since before they were born, so have they ever really been able to exercise their own free will, really and truly?)

And heck, I’m wondering why they didn’t just call Billie in the first place when they were all worried about the state of Jack’s soul... From 11.23:

BILLIE: Little tip—you want souls, call a reaper.

And hilariously, Sam remembered his reaper babysitters back in 14.10, in Michael’s office, but when Jack’s soul may have been lost it’s wild to me that nobody though to ask Billie about it... especially after Jack was in Heaven, and Heaven was getting invaded by the Empty...

But of course Billie wasn’t about to remind them. I think she was biding her time, waiting for the right moment when Jack could be truly restored. And now we are there. All the narrative spiral bits have finally lined up.

I am super excited for s15, but I don’t think the whole season is gonna be Jack As Jesus saving everyone, you know? He’s still gotta figure out how to save himself, too...

#spn 14.20 #jack nougat winchester #if you say 'mysterious ways' so help me i will kick your ass #spn 12.19 #spn 12.23 #lies and damn lies #billie the reaper #spn s15 speculation #Anonymous

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tinkdw · 6 years

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Could you describe more about Jensen and Jared swapping lines in Slumber Party? What’s the story on that? This is the first I’ve heard of it.

They talk about it all the freaking time at cons. They’re so proud of it, like, we know Sam and Dean so well we knew these lines were the wrong way around so we changed them yay us! Freaking…. URGH. OK here goes.

youtube link

Original written by Robbie:

Sam: wow Joffrey’s a dick!Charlie: you have no idea, wait until -Dean: woah woah woah spoilers! I haven’t read all the books yet! Sam: you’re going to read the books? *incredulous*Dean: yes, Sam, I like to read books. *Pause*. You know, the ones without pictures *sarcastic face*

Canon because they’re freaking irritating - I still love em but jeez you just didn’t get it - idiots:

Dean: wow Joffrey’s a dick!Charlie: you have no idea, wait until -Sam: woah woah woah spoilers! I haven’t read all the books yet.Dean: you’re going to read the books?Sam: yes, Dean, I like to read books. *Pause*. You know, the ones without picturesDean: *confused face*

Which makes no sense in terms of exposition or use in the episode or, well, anything at all, all it does is REINFORCE the stupid toxic masculine facade that Dean upholds and remind us that Sam likes to read - which we already knew.

J2 just reinforced the facade BS because they didn’t understand the point the scene was making, that the BS facade is just that, A BS FACADE.

Meta writers and Robbie who wrote it that way around on purpose:

Reminder that this is also before Jensen was awkward about shooting the “Dean likes Taylor Swift” scene for exactly the same reason, that he didn’t want the Dean below the facade stuff, he likes Dean who only likes classic rock, he likes Dean who doesn’t read, acts like a dude bro, URGH. JENSEN.

You play the guy as double faceted so well how on earth do you have such a top level Dean understanding? OK Sigh. He’s clearly better now 3+ years on but it’s still infuriating given he plays the friggin character as double faceted. It can’t be just good editing.

Reminder that during this period of episodes we are exploring why Dean throws Cas out of the bunker in parallel to Robin, the Cus’s waitress and framing his responsibility to Sam in Bad Boys, we see Dean and Sam’s toxic codependency get to the worst point in 8x23/9x01 and here we see Sam who says he’s ok with his life but he really isn’t, he’s resigned to it because he feels Dean can’t do it without him, it’s so deep in Sam/Dean dynamics, Sam wanting out but not feeling like he can because he has a responsibility to Dean to stay and Dean needing him and Dean not being able to let go of the deep parental responsibility he had forced upon him as such a young influenceable adult, where we see he gave up the chance to have so much love, tenderness and support, to have a father figure who cares about him massively contrasted in this episode to John, to potentially grow up in this positive environment and be a mechanic or a guitar playing rock star, with a girlfriend, being a normal kid and going to prom, all this exposing that he has this macho dude bro facade up in essence as a facade to protect himself from these feelings of loss at what he’s had to give up for Sam.

It’s all SO META. I mean it’s not even that hidden subtext, you just have to listen to the story being told, it’s really not that subtextual at all, they literally say a lot of this out loud, as well as the obvious “here’s the life Dean left behind for Sam and isn’t it so tragic” whole freaking episode that followed.

Oh dear now you also have me onto the fact that these episodes were out of order when they aired for reasons and this again ties into all this. Basically the subtext being too textual so they ramped it back a bit by putting them out of order so it didn’t flow so well. But yeah, the original order had Bad Boys directly after this episode.

*No coincidence whatsoever that it all ties in together then*

*Side eyes TPTB*

*Even more pissy with the fact that they changed all this*

I mean it doesn’t really change anything for me, I can still see all this stuff regardless because I enjoy looking at things a bit deeper so I noticed anyway, but it’s irritating having to fend off idiotic antis who say this isn’t in the show because they don’t want to see it and it’s not clear enough. Chuck bless Dabb for making this all blatant now anyway :p

TL;DR Dean is multi faceted, yes sure he has a bit of a dude bro classic rock macho side but he also has another side, who likes Vonnegut, Dr Sexy, Taylor Swift (and a bunch of other music I bet we just don’t know yet), enjoys LARPING and reading Game of Thrones, later tells us he read freaking AESOP.

By season 11 Jensen is getting it a bit more and well also the show runners / writers are putting their foot down as this stuff needs to be textualised to make any sense of the actual narrative now too given they’ve rested so much on his being double faceted, needing to address the self acceptance arc etc. By 2017 he imo now does get it, given he’s started saying at cons that he used to think he was SO like Dean and now realises there are some big differences, distancing himself from the softer side of Dean I imagine, because reasons.

So yeah, Dean was supposed to say the game of thrones line, as part of his “who he really is” story beyond the facade, but they changed it to Sam saying it. Because they are adorable but irritating doofuses.

#spn 9x04 #salmon dean #toxic codependency #robbie thompson #supernatural #slumber party #j2 say things that are annoying but we still love em #spn 9x04 meta #just stick to acting boys #let the writers do the writing #at least they do that now :D #got

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