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jackoshadows · 3 years

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The ASoIaF fandom can be so frustrating sometimes.

It’s okay to admit that one doesn’t like this or that character. There’s nothing wrong in disliking a character.

I am pretty open on my blog about my indifference towards or dislike for Sansa because of her stans. I don’t make disclaimers about how much I love the character before proceeding to criticize Sansa. I am not a Sansa stan and that’s okay. My blog is a place for me to jot down my thoughts and celebrate characters, books and shows I do like. If you love Sansa as a character, block me, don’t follow me etc.

What’s obnoxiously annoying are the folks who claim to love all the characters the same and then give their ‘unbiased’ opinions which are held up as canon facts because they came from neutral book reader experts. To hell with that nonsense.

These posts reek of hypocrisy and double standards. It often tears down some characters while subtly propping up others - and it’s gobbled up by the wider fandom as unbiased interpretation of the text.

One example is pushing forth the notion that calling Arya pretty (Something that both her father and brother tell her she is in the books) is wrong, it’s sexualizing her, it’s okay for Arya to be ugly, she’s canonically not pretty because Cat/Sansa said so and no other interpretation is allowed etc. And then the same person who says all this celebrates Sansa’s beauty and ships her with a 27 year old man who falls in lust with Sansa.

Or when they say that the Arya-Lyanna (and Sansa/Lyanna parallels, because it’s always important to mention Sansa with respect to Lyanna even if said person claims to not care about Lyanna as a character) parallels are overrated and not important and they don’t care about Robert’s Rebellion characters but on their blogs there’s all these posts, fanarts and meta about Elia Martell - a Robert’s Rebellion character.

A so called book expert would note that GRRM has several characters outright compare Arya to Lyanna or mistake Lyanna for Arya in the books while Sansa has no such comparison. But no, the unbiased book expert thinks that the Arya-Lyanna and Sansa-Lyanna parallels are equivalent and are both overrated.That post just annoyed me excessively into writing this long ass rant post.

Why are these neutral, unbiased folks so interested in stripping away from Arya’s story?

In the books Jeyne Poole is masquerading as Arya Stark - but that story is only Jeyne’s, has nothing to do with Arya or Arya’s importance to the North.

Arya is a strong warg, Nymeria and her wolf pack are a ‘Chekov’s wolf pack’ that GRRM has hung on the wall - Our expert opinion is that Direwolves are not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

Arya is pretty - why needlessly call Arya pretty, it adds nothing to Arya’s story and is all about sexualizing a child.

Arya-Lyanna parallels - why do we need these parallels, Arya is distinct and interesting without them.

These aspects are all important parts of the character’s story. There are so many very well written essays exploring these concepts with respect to Arya’s journey of self discovery in the books, the narrative significance of her parallels to Lyanna, her bond with Nymeria and her warging talents. For those who are interested, here are two bloggers who actually like Arya and have written about her character and character arc.

https://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/meta-masterlist

https://ashotofjac.tumblr.com/tagged/arya-stark

Some of these same people will rush to condemn any reading of the books that does not have Sansa wielding power at the end as being ‘Sansa hate’. But they will have no issues to undermine and devalue Arya’s actual book story, the relationships she has, the parallels she has, the skillsets she has, her appearance, her importance to the current story happening in the North.

There is a whole ass plot currently in the books of Northerners rallying for Arya Stark and preparing for battle against the Boltons for Arya Stark. But that’s not important because it’s actually Jeyne Poole and Arya’s story is about sailing off west of westeros. But hey, Sansa will definitely go North and hold power and that’s like 100% happening because we are the unbiased book experts and we say it is so.

Or when all else fails - Arya is a Mary Sue, she’s a fantasy character, she’s a ‘strong female character’ because she fights with a sword, people like her because she’s a tomboy who fights. Sansa is realistic, Sansa is complex - but here are all the essays that basically transfer Arya’s complexity and story to Sansa - because it fits more with their fave, because these aspects would fit better with the traditionally feminine character even though they never tire of talking about how GRRM is deconstructing tropes. Because the trope deconstruction is only applied to Arya, Jon and Dany. Never Sansa.

And honestly, why are these people reading a high fantasy series if they hate fantasy and fantasy characters so much? We love Sansa because she’s so non-magical! Then go read non-fiction books. They also twist Jon, Arya and Dany into ‘fantasy’ characters - despite these characters going through some very real and human experiences. What’s fantasy about Arya’s experiences in war torn Westeros, Jon dealing with bigotry at the wall, Dany trying to rebuild Meereen, while dealing with famine, disease and insurgency?

Or how Jon and Dany getting any kind of happy ending or becoming rulers would be so boring, sweet, predictable, conforming to tropes, a happy ending etc. But Sansa getting love, romance, going home, becoming the Stark in Winterfell, getting her fairy tale ending - that’s totally what GRRM is going to do! No trope deconstruction there! In may ways, Benioff and Weiss’ ending is not all that surprising - Mad Queen Dany, Jon remaining a bastard with the freefolk, Sansa having power as a leader - are all popular theories among bnfs in the fandom. D&D wanting to wind up the show quickly with easily found fan theories is not that much of a stretch.

ASoIaF reddit is equally frustrating. Instead of Sansa stan bnfs on tumblr who pretend to like Arya and Dany while subtly undermining their story and importance, on Asoiaf reddit it’s Stannis stans who dislike Jon and Dany because these characters present a challenge to Stannis. The mere suggestion that Jon may play a role in the battle against Ramsay sends them into frothing at the mouth rage. They hate Jon, Jon is a Gary Sue because he dared advice Stannis - the greatest general ever - on Northern military strategy. Never mind that Jon grew up in the North and learned from Ned, how dare Jon Snow know more than Stannis! Unacceptable!

And I love Stannis Baratheon. I want Stannis to crush and defeat the Boltons. But unlike reddit dudebros, I can see that he is a secondary character, a tragic character who is most probably going to perish and Jon takes over because Jon Snow is a central protagonist in the story.

I feel it’s the same with Sansa. IMO, GRRM clearly doesn’t see Sansa in the same way as he does Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Bran. Whenever he is asked questions about the books, book plots, long term arcs, endings, age gaps etc it’s these characters he often brings up and references. It’s these characters who are important to him.

And that’s why there’s a lot of undermining and undervaluing of these character’s and their stories, them being described as fantasy characters, tropes, Mary Sues and Gary Sues, ableist rhetoric about Tyrion and Bran to undermine them.

I am damned certain that if it was Sansa who had all the parallels to Lyanna, or if she was the warg, or Jeyne Poole was impersonating her, this would all be ‘VERY IMPORTANT’ and on all the gifsets and essays. But she isn’t. So fandom bnfs are reduced to talking about how these aspects are not all that important anyway.

It’s like how this quote - ‘You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts’ turns up on gifsets every other day on the Arya tag but this quote - ‘Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier of Arya had been a bastard, like her half brother Jon. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered’ very rarely does and will not get reblogged when it does.

Or when Sansa sees Joffrey trying to kill Arya and sides with Joffrey or when Sansa throws Arya under the bus and tells the Lannisters that it’s Arya who is the traitor - just sisters being sisters y’all!

It’s all about maintaining a certain narrative about Sansa - and when others point out her actual relationship with Arya in the books, we are accused of hating and wanting Sansa dead and how we should be criticizing Tywin and the Mountain instead. This is nonsensical whataboutism and ignores that people talk about these aspects of the books because sometimes bullying, getting mocked for one’s appearance, abuse and neglect from parental figures etc. can resonate with certain readers unlike getting one’s head smashed in by Frankenstein.

At the end of the day, I wish these people would be honest about the characters they like and relate to. We are all biased. That’s why our opinions and interpretations are subjective. There’s nothing wrong in saying, hey, I like Sansa more than Arya or Dany, I relate to her character more.

I relate to Jon Snow a lot, I see things from his POV, I would disagree with the characters who disagree with Jon, I enjoy his story at the Wall and the North. My interpretations of the text are therefore colored by my bias towards Jon.

For others, it’s Dany or Sansa or Arya or Tyrion or Jaime. And that’s okay because these are fictional characters and liking one more than the other is not going to earn anyone woke points and lead to women’s rights.

And finally, there’s nothing edgy or cool about disparaging the central protagonists of a high fantasy series as being fantasy characters - go read other books if one is not into fantasy.

#rant post

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shivaliszt · 5 years

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The issue isn't the lack of foreshadowing. The issue is the foreshadowing.

(Credit to /u/shhansha on Reddit for this post that says it in much better words than I could.)

Many have argued that Dany’s moral and mental decline in 805 was unearned and came out of nowhere. I agree with the former, but dispute the latter. It didn’t come out of nowhere; it came out of shitty, kind of sexist fan theories and shitty, kind of sexist foreshadowing.

I’ve been reading “Mad Queen Dany” fan theories for years. The earlier ones were mostly nuanced and well-argued. The first I remember seeing came from Adam Feldman’s “Meerenese Knot” essays (worth a read, if you haven’t seen them already). The basic argument, as I remember it, was as follows: Dany’s rule in Meereen is all about her trying and struggling to rule with compassion and compromise; Dany ends ADWD embracing fire and blood; Dany will begin ADOS with far greater ruthlessness and violence. Considering the books will likely have fAegon on the throne when she gets to Westeros, rather than Cersei, Dany will face up against a likely popular ruler with an ostensibly better claim. Her ruthlessness will get increasingly morally questionable and self-serving, as she is no longer defending the innocent but an empty crown.

Over time, though, I saw “Mad Queen Dany” theories devolve. Instead of ‘obviously she’s a moral character but she has a streak of megalomania that will increasingly undermine her morality,’ the theory became, 'Dany has always been evil and crazy.’ I saw posts like this for years. The theorizers would cherry-pick passages and scenes to suit their argument, and completely ignore the dominant, obvious themes and moments in her arc that contradict this reading. I’m not opposed to the nuanced 'Mad Queen,’ theories, but the idea that she’d been evil the whole time was patently absurd, and plays directly into age old 'female hysteria’ tropes. Sure, when a woman is ruthless and ambitious she must be crazy, right? But then the show started to do the same thing. Tyrion and Varys started talking about Dany like she was a crazy tyrant before she’d done anything particularly crazy or tyrannical. They’d share *concerned looks* when she questioned their very bad suggestions. Despite their own histories of violence and ruthlessness, suddenly any plan that risked a single life was untenable. Tyrion–who used fire himself in battle! To defend Joffrey no less!–walked through the Field of Fire appalled last season at the wreckage. The show seemed to particularly linger on the violence, the screaming, the horror of the men as they burned during, in a way that they’d avoided when our other heroes slayed their enemies. Dany, reasonably, suggests burning the Red Keep upon arrival. The show, using Tyrion as its proxy, tells us that this would risk too many innocent lives. She listens, but they present her annoyance and frustration as concerting more than justified. From a Doylist perspective, this makes no sense at all. There’s no reason to assume she’d kill thousands by burning Cersei directly, especially if Tyrion/the show ignore the caches of wildfire stored throughout the city. It would be one thing if the show realized his, but they don’t really present Tyrion as a saboteur, just as desperately concerned for the lives of the innocents he bemoaned saving three seasons prior. The show uses Tyrion (and fucking Varys! Who was more than happy to feed her father’s delusions!) to question Dany’s morality, her violence. Tyrion and Varys’ moral ambiguity is washed away, so they can increasingly position Dany as the villain. 805’s biggest sin is proving Tyrion, Varys, and all the shitty fan theories right. Everyone who jumped to the conclusion that Dany was crazy and maniacal before we actually saw her do anything crazy and maniacal was correct. Sure, the show 'gets’ how Varys plotting against her furthers her feelings of isolation and instability, but do they 'get’ that he was in the wrong? That he had no reason to assume Jon would make a better ruler than Dany (especially since he’s never interacted with Jon)? That he suddenly became useless when he started working for her? That he’s been a terrible adviser? Does the show realize he’s a hypocrite? His death is presented sympathetically - a man just trying to do the right thing. Poor Varys. Boohoo. And Tyrion! Poor Tyrion. Just trying to do the right thing. Smart people make mistakes because they’re not ruthless enough because this is Game of Thrones. Does the show realize how transparently, inexcusably stupid every single piece of advice he’s given Dany has been? 802 presents Dany as morally questionable because she might fire Tyrion, but of course she should fire Tyrion! He’s incredible incompetent! Does the show realize Jon keeps sabotaging Dany? That she’s right to be pissed at him, and if anything, should be more pissed? He tells everyone in the North he bent the knee for alliances rather than out of faith in her leadership. Well no shit they all hate her! You just told them she wouldn’t help without submission! He then proceeds to tell his sisters about his lineage, right after Dany explained to him that they would plot against her if they knew, and right after they tell him that Dany’s right and they’re plotting against her. Again, the show definitely 'gets’ why Jon’s behavior feels like a betrayal to Dany, but do they get that it actually is a betrayal? It’d be one thing if the show were actually commenting on hysteria in some way, showing the audience how our male heroes set Dany up to fail. There are moments where they get close to this (basically whenever we’re at least semi-rooted in Dany’s POV), but for the most part, it feels like the show is positioning Tyrion and Jon as fools for trusting Dany, not for screwing her over.

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rainhadaenerys · 5 years

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I've been tagged in different tag games, so I'm answering them all here.

@eldritch-crone tagged me and asked me 11 questions:

Rules: Answer the 11 questions below. Then make up 11 of your own for the next person to answer and tag people.

1. If you could get two characters in asoiaf to switch their narratives with each other, who all would it be?

I would say Jon and Dany (I would have them gender swapped as well), because I feel like that wouldn't really change a lot and they would end up having similar arcs as they have in canon (like, their arcs are both about compromising until they reach a point in which they don't want to compromise anymore, and both are trying to make changes in society). I choose this because I would like to prove once and for all that Jon and Dany are similar rulers.

2. What is your endgame prediction for your favourite character?

Well, unpopular opinion here, I think Dany will live. I don't see any other purpose for her time in Meereen in which she learns how to rule, deals with economy, diplomacy and justice, and also learns about the different sides of peace and war. I think those things are all essential for a ruler, and I believe Westeros will undergo political and social changes, and who has experience with that? Dany. I don't think the whole "true sacrifice" thing has to be about Dany, literally any other character could sacrifice themselves to save the world. And GRRM has said multiple times that he has never changed the ending, and we know from the outline that Dany lived (or maybe that's just me trying to be positive, and maybe I'll be disappointed in the end). I'm not sure if Dany will be queen, but I think she'll have a political role. And boatbaby will happen.

3. What’s the one food item from asoiaf that you’d like to taste?

That's a problem for me to answer, because I'm really bored by food descriptions, so I don't pay a lot of attention to that. So I don't know… maybe Sansa's lemoncakes?

4. What’s your favourite song in Westeros, and why?

It's a tie between The Last of the Giants, because it criticizes the genocide of the giants (and therefore it's talking about important social issues), and The Rains of Castamere, because this one is simply iconic.

5. If you could bring back one character from dead, who would it be?

None, really? I'm fine with the way the story has been going so far. But if I had to choose someone, I'd choose princess Rhaenys (Elia and Rhaegar's daughter), because it always breaks my heart reading about what happened to her.

6. Which house’s words is the most iconic? Why?

Winter is coming are the best house's words. It's both badass (a warning against enemies that winter is coming for them) and it warns about hardships to come (like, it's a warning against the true enemy), how it's important to keep together and worry about what actually matters.

7. If you could bring one fashion/stylistic choice from Essos to Westeros, what would it be?

Well, that's another thing I don't really pay a lot of attention (I really hate reading descriptions, lol), but I guess Myrish fashion. I know it kind of already came to Westeros and that some highborn women already use Myrish dresses and all, but it seems like Myr has some pretty dresses (and I like lace).

8. If you were a character in asoiaf, what do you think your occupation would be?

Hmmm, I always feel like I would be a peasant, so I'd probably be a washerwoman or something. Or maybe I'd do like Sarella and crossdress to become a maester (though to be honest, I'm a coward, I don't think I would have the courage to do that).

9. What’s the one ship in asoiaf, that you wish didn’t happen?

Jaime and Brienne (well it hasn't exactly happened, but I already don't like it the way it is). I understand the reasons this ship exists, I understand the thematic importance and all, but I don't like Jaime, so that's that on that.

10. What’s your favourite quote from asoiaf?

"A queen must listen to all," she reminded him. "The highborn and the low, the strong and the weak, the noble and the venal. One voice may speak you false, but in many there is always truth to be found." She had read that in a book. - Daenerys I ASOS

This is my favorite for several reasons. First, because it shows how Dany is smart and wise. She is a bookworm (she read it in a book), and she sees that while not everyone will speak the truth to her, she can find the truth if she listens to different versions of a story. Not only that, but it shows how Dany is humble and understands that she doesn't know everything, that she needs to listen to others. And it also shows how Dany sees people as equals, how she gives the same importance to the highborn and the low, and she thinks a queen must be a queen for all. It's a wonderful quote.

11. If you could change one pre-asoiaf event, what would it be?

Hmm, like I said, I'm fine with the way the story is going. I keep thinking that if I change anything, things right now wouldn't be how they are. But if I have to choose, I save princess Rhaenys.

@hermajestythebomb also asked me 11 questions:

1. Wich two dead characters who never met would make the best interaction?

I'm having trouble thinking about it (this is what happens when you only really care about one character, it's quite difficult for me to think about anything that isn't Daenerys), but I think Joffrey and Viserys would be quite interesting. Though to be honest, while Viserys is an awful person, I think Joffrey would eat him alive.

2. Show! Tyrion or Book! Tyrion?

Book!Tyrion. I really don't like show Tyrion. Ever since he started to interact with Dany, he has been stealing her storyline (her ADWD arc was given to him), Dany has been dumbed down around him (he makes all of Dany's battle plans and Dany never has any idea), because the show writers don't know how to write smart characters without dumbing down everyone else around them, and I hate this trend the show has of Tyrion having to "control Dany's violent impulses", especially because book Tyrion is way darker than book Dany.

I like book Tyrion. He's smart (much smarter than show Tyrion), I sympathize with his wish to be loved and respected, I like his conflict between his loyalty to his family and doing what he thinks is right, I think he's an empathetic person, and I think that when Dany and Tyrion meet in the books, GRRM will be capable to write them without stealing anyone's protagonism or dumbing down anyone. Both Dany and Tyrion will be the protagonists of their own stories, and both will continue to be the smart characters that they are.

3. Have you read the books? If so…wich book character would you would have liked to see on the show and didn’t?

I love Arianne Martell, but I'm not sure if I would have liked to see her on the show (being on the show only means that D&D would ruin her like they ruined everyone else).

4. What’s your favorite crack theory?

I'm not really a fan of crack theories. But I once read this theory that princess Rhaenys warged into Balerion before she died, and well… I know this theory is not necessary at all, Occam's Razor says that Balerion is just a cat, blah blah blah… but I grew fond of this theory. It's my guilty pleasure.

5. What’s your favorite minor house?

Velaryon (it's not minor, but it's minor to the ASOIAF plot, so…)

6. Team greens or team blacks?

Blacks.

7. Favorite Pre Asoiaf character

Good Queen Alysanne!!!!

8. Best Asoiaf food

I really don't pay attention to food description… but definitely not Dornish. I don't like spicy food.

9. If you could make a minor change in the story…what would it be?

I can't really think of anything...

10. Would you try the pidgeon pie (without the strangler)?

No.

11. Say that you have been named by our queen and made a lord/lady…what would you put in your sigil?

I answered this in another tag game, I would put a book in my sigil.

Finally, @thebronzefury tagged me in a ship challenge:

Well, since you said that it doesn't have to be GOT/ASOIAF, I'm going to answer about different fandoms.

OTP: Jonerys

Fave canon: Aside from Jonerys, I love Maiko (Mai x Zuko) and Everlark (Katniss and Peeta)

Fave non-canon: actually, I'm pretty sure this would count as canon as well, but it's never made official, so I would say Royai (Roy Mustang and Riza Hawkeye)

Guilty pleasure: Hmmm, I don't have one?

Hate it: J/onsa, Z/utara (Zuko x Katara). I don't really have a problem with the ships, but certain shippers are awful, so I end up hating the ships by association.

Thanks for the tag, everyone! I already made 11 questions before (here), so this time I'll leave it open to anyone that wants to do the 11 questions or the ship challenge.

#tag game

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lyannas · 6 years

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The Dany issue is definitely complicated, and I wouldn't say I was anti-Dany at all. But how do you feel about arguments that are more targeted towards obsessive fans who oversimplify her Meereen narrative and think she'll be The Best Queen Ever, when the episode does highlight some problems in her leadership style/decision-making choices? (The 'If I look back I'm lost' idea for one. It protects her from everything she's been through, but it also blinds her, and I think the Meereen episode-

-highlights that. Like I said, I’m not anti-Dany, but I do think that she’s made mistakes, and I think the abrupt liberation of Meereen was one of them. The liberation in itself was morally right, but the execution was perhaps not ideal, and I think it’s a mistake for Dany to learn from. She can’t blindly go on telling herself ‘if I look back, I’m lost’ at a certain point she MUST look back and evaluate the decisions she’s made and not just blunder on with them. Which is what I think the Meereen arc, and her final ADWD chapter in particular (with the ghosts of her past returning to her) is supposed to set up for her future? I’ve lost the thread of this a little, I apologise. I suppose I was just trying to say that I consider Dany to be flawed, and some of her decisions to be flawed in execution (though justified in intention) and think that it’s right and fair to be critical, especially when so many stans just yell about how ‘badass’ those moments were and ignore the consequences.

oh man, anyone who thinks dany is the Best Queen Ever or that she hasn’t made some blunders are not paying attention. This is where the show fails and flops completely, imo. It focused more on faux empowering moments like Dany burning down that Dothraki religious site (bad bad bad) and the fighting pits of Meereen and the arrival at Dragonstone that it just sort of seems to drive home this narrative of Look At This Badass Queen which misses the point.

Her Meereen narrative in the books is so goddamn complicated that even GRRM, who wrote it, had trouble parsing it and figuring it out. There are so many layers to her Slaver’s Bay arc, but such a limited perspective. Her failings in the book are well documented and well highlighted, because this was never going to be easy. No one would ever believe that Dany just walked into Slaver’s Bay with her dragons and abolished slavery and fixed the class imbalance and everything was perfect, the end. There had to be struggle, and strife, and problems, or else it would be unrealistic and boring.

And you know, GRRM *could* have written an easy way out. He could have had Dany hop from one city to the next, taking what she wanted before she set sail to Westeros. He didn’t because it makes no sense for Dany’s character– her intention was not to colonize or exploit. Her empathy for the slaves in Slaver’s Bay came from a personal place, and she cared enough to see it through. When the new government she placed in Astapor fell shortly after she left, she learned from that mistake and chose to stay in Meereen, to take the time to stabilize it and try to bring peace and equality. She even marries Hizdhar zo Loraq, who she does not like at all, to try and bring that peace. If Dany didn’t care, she would have not bothered to do any of this and just continued on to Westeros. GRRM knew his own character– he knew he could not write an easy way out, that it had to be true to Daenerys and to reality.

This Badass Queen that the show tries to push isn’t the books’ reality. She is a struggling queen, a young queen, an ill advised queen, a desperate queen, a queen who is in above her head. Her moments of empowerment don’t come from being a queen who exerts her power, it comes from her own private reassurances and her own hope.

As you note, at one point, Dany will have to look back. She has used this coping mechanism far too much– first for small and personal matters, but now for large and far-reaching ones too. She thinks looking back will make her lost, but I’d argue that she is already lost and what she needs to do now is look back, stop lying to herself, and to stop repressing those hard feelings and memories. She comes so, so close to doing just that at the end of ADWD– but she pulls back, and returns to telling herself “if I look back, I’m lost”.

If you look at my “serene watches got” tag I voiced many frustrations with how Dany was written and portrayed this season (along with Jon, Arya, Sansa, Ellaria… the whole season was a mess). It focused so much on those big and badass moments, then floundered when it came down to political and personal matters– on every front, for every storyline, not just Dany’s. GoT is a show that’s focused on action and those big shocking twists. Dany, having dragons, is such an easy character to use for those scenes. All they have to do is have her burn shit up or get carried by a sea of brown and black bodies or swoop in to save Jon’s dumb ass on a dragon and it’s a wrap. Badass Dragon Queen is basically the most she’ll ever be on that show. There’s no nuance there at all.

All I can advise is to start separating the show and the books, and the fans as well. Show-only folks are gonna see something different from those of us who have read the books. It’s going to be frustrating for you (I know it is for me!) to see show fan reactions when you know it’s wrong or deeper than in the books. Watching the briefly-lived Dorne plot damn near ripped my heart out lol. Ellaria’s character was unrecognizable, the Sand Snakes killed their own cousin and uncle, and Ellaria the Evil Bisexual Brown Woman killed Myrcella with a kiss. It was so bad and the other plotlines fared only marginally better.

tl;dr Badass Queen Dany is a show-only myth and it’s way more complicated than the show made it seem

#Anonymous #asks

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empiregalaxy · 7 years

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Don’t you love it when people reblog your posts, and then block you so you can’t reply? Love it. *sarcasm*. Either way, I’m going to respond to this whether that user likes it or not. Heads up, a lot of text.

There are so many things wrong with post and I’ve seen it just a few times too many so I needed to react. (And disclaimer: I’m not a Jalsa ‘hater’; I don’t even know what Jalsa is so there.)

You may not attack Jonsa, but so many people who are pro- Daenerys do, up to the point of calling us ‘delusional’, sending anon hate, and mocking them constantly. Just cause you don’t take part of it, doesn’t mean others don’t. So -yeah- I’m going ot have a problem with that.

“Dany tortured a child.” I presume you’re talking about the wineseller’s daughter here…? In that case, context is everything. What eventually happened to the wineseller’s daughter remains vague. Apart from that, torturing her was never Dany’s idea to start with. Throughout the series, we see her being protective of children and struggling with her ideas of motherhood. The idea to torture the wineseller’s daughter came from Shakaz. And when Dany thinks about the murder of her people - especially Rylona Rhee, a freed woman -, she agrees to Shakaz’s notion. I don’t condone that, I think it’s 100% wrong and I wish Dany acted differently here. But to take this action out of its context - a city besieged from within, while Dany tries to protect her people, amongst whom there are children as well! - in order to proof Dany is a Horrible Person is a strawman argument imo.

Well, I completely disagree with that meta linked. Context? You mean, ‘cool motive, still a war crime.’ I don’t give a shit what motivated Daenerys to torture a child. I don’t care that the city was under seige. Just cause it’s not ‘your idea’ doesn’t mean you don’t hold the power in that situation. Daenerys is a Queen. Shakaz is part of her council. Who holds the influence at the end of the day? Daenerys does. And it’s not ‘vague’ if you know what medieval torture was. Flaying, pulling out teeth, burning, snapping bones. Want a full list? Happy to provide one. I suppose the Wineseller’s daughters don’t count as Daenerys’ ‘people’. Her prior protection of people (and any “context” doesn’t make the wineseller’s daughters less tortured and brutalized. So it’s not a strawman argument at all.

Is practically an imperialist.” Nope, I don’t agree with this, sorry. There are a lot of racial issues with Dany’s Slaver’s Bay storyline but I think these stem from problems with Martin’s writing rather than Dany’s characterization an sich. There are people who can talk about this way more eloquently than I can but in short I don’t think Dany’s an imperialist and/or has imperialist motives. This post is excellent in explaining why that’s so

I never once talked about the racial undertones of Slaver’s Bay. Never did. I called her an ‘imperalist’ in relation to her wanting to overtake Westeros and imposing herself as ruler of Meereen. I’m just going to quote from a meta I wrote

She uses military forces to take Meereen, Yunkai and Astapor. She’s not simply the Princess Of Dragonstone, but the Queen Of Meereen, a title which has nothing to do with Targaryen legacy, but she creating in some Slaver’s Bay Empire. She used the Unsullied and Second Sons to do so. What Daenerys did does fit the definition of imperalism. (...)

As for imperalism and it being justified, well- you are justified in getting rid of slavery. You are, however not justified in changing a culture to see how you feel fit, you are not justified to execute whoever you feel wronged by, you are not justified to torture children, you are not justified in bringing three weapons of mass destruction into a city with the intent of using them- even if they are your ‘children’. Imperalism gives an appeal- power goes to the mightiest and in the case of Daenerys, someone with more humanity than the slave masters. But it’s not that simple. Any imperalism comes fire, blood and destruction.

(...)

Critics of Daenerys do not just call her an imperalist in relation to Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen. It’s also about Westeros. The Targaryens lost their right to rule when they committed the atrocities under King Aerys II. Back to Aegon The Conquerer, the ‘conquered’ Westeros. But the Baratheons, under Robert- conquered the Targaryens. So it’s technically a Baratheon state. Daenerys wants to change that, and revert it back to the Targaryen way. Changing how things works, who is in charge and who sits on the throne is imperalism. She wants to bring imperalism to Westeros. Therefore, Daenerys is an imperalist and more importantly will continue to be so.

“Called Ned an usurper dog.” Well, eh, it’s kinda logical Dany would think that, no? Eddard was crucial in the downfall of House Targaryen. We, the readers, know Robert’s Rebellion was justified but in Dany’s mind - the mind of a girl who had to flee her homeland, grew up with Viserys and relied on his version of events of what happened when she was just a babe - Eddard is an usurper who contributed in the fall of her House, the murder of her family and the loss of her home. I think accepting what her father has done, acknowledging that dark part of her ancestry is and will be one of the driving forces of Dany’s arc and characterization in the series. She isn’t there yet; she’s still holding onto her idealized version of her family and history. That’s rather ignorant and wrong of her but c’mon, it’s understandable; it’s human. I really don’t understand how you (or anyone for that matter) can fault her for not looking favorable upon Eddard Stark. Why in the seven hells would she, considering she doesn’t know the whole truth about her father’s reign?

Her counsel includes Barristan Selmy, who tried to tell her differently that Ned advocated for her life. She chose to not listen. Next point.

“Dishes out ‘justice’ to the Grand Masters without trial.” Lol, somehow I find this one extra funny. I would totally agree with such a complaint, if we were talking about a real life situation with real life people. However, the world of ASoIaF is not real life; it’s fantasy. A fantasy world where the capital punishment is very much a thing, where the ruler of a city, city state, state, kingdom, et cetera rules supreme, where faux ‘trials’ are in vogue and where the murder of slaves is everyday business. That doesn’t mean you can’t be bothered by the fact Dany ordered the deaths of slave holders and traders but in that case, I would fully expect you to be just as bothered with Arya’s sense of justice, or Jon’s, or basically anyone in the series who kills ‘bad’ people without a trial first. Dany is the Breaker of Chains; she wants to destroy the slave trade and free the people of Slaver’s Bay. For me, especially in the context of ASoIaF, that’s a noble enough goal to justify killing the Grand Masters and it doesn’t make me like Dany any less.

You do know that the grand masters who were nailed to the cross were picked at random? Not by measure of atrocity, or their actions.... she just grouped them all together and at random, chose 163. It is totally not comparable to Arya Stark, a fierce warrior. In the books- she wants to know the names of the Freys responsible. She just doesn’t go on a rampage like Lady Stoneheart does and kill them all. Arya is very specific in who she wants to kill- Daenerys is not.

“Can’t control her dragons for shit.” Okay, what. A) Literally NOBODY (or at least nobody Dany came in contact with) can at this point. NOBODY. B) Dany regularly reprimands herself for that very fact throughout the series. She even locks up Rhaegal and Viserion, who she considers to be her children* and who are her biggest weapons and the foundation of her power, in order to make sure the people are safe. She constantly berates herself for the murder of Hazea. *I think the fandom really underestimates this fact. The dragons are not just her ‘pets’, they are her children, her salvation, her means of going back home (the very thing she longs for most). C) May I remind you that it’s Quentyn Martell (the poor fool) who lets Rhaegal and Viserion escape at the end of ADwD? D) At the very end of her ADwD arc Dany is actually succeeding in taming Drogon. With only a whip. (Favorite chapter ever.)

Point being: she should have done it sooner. I do get what you are saying about the dragons being her children, but Hazea’s death could have been avoided if Drogon wasn’t roaming around that day. I don’t -hate- Daenerys because of it, I just find it careless on her part.

6. & 7. I’m going to combine your last two arguments, because they boil down to the same thing: a leader under siege in the world of George R.R. Martin does things like to that in order to survive. A leaders threatens people. A leader takes hostages (hostages that are in Dany’s case well taken care of by the way). And Dany took the children hostage because she wanted to stop the killings. Wow, she’s such a Jerk. Amazing. I sincerely wish Dany didn’t have to do these things but it’s not like she was in a very comfortable, safe position when she made these decisions. Once again for the people in the back: context is everything.

Yes, war and seiges put leaders in a corner. Do they have to be children, though? Just cause she takes care of them well doesn’t change the fact that they are hostages. Just cause she won’t harm them (even though it’s been established she’d torture innocent people)

Accept that not everyone is going to like your ‘fav’. We have valid reasons, and you can’t just scream ‘sexism’.

#anti daenerys #urgh urgh urgh #long post for ts

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phosphorescent-naidheachd · 7 years

Text

_____ said:

on one level i will always enjoy watching a cool lady ride jon's face or w/e so i am not anti-dany getting some of the old King In The North. otoh - the whole epic meet cute destined thing is too grand for me. it's like an archetype? i prefer how rooted and grounded and layered jon/sansa is as a ship - everything has resonance and a kind of unexpected joy, like Persuasion, where neither person thought they could repair the past and find happiness and yet happiness is there for them. it's just more my jam. i hope jonsa shippers have enough to work with for fic purposes after the show ends

another thing - i wish dany could have a male family member who doesn't want to bang her, especially given that monster of a brother she had... jon is a wonderful family member. i wish they could have been that to each other

^^^

I’m not inherently against J0n3rys -- written as an epic ‘our fates were written in the stars long before our birth’ archetypical relationship or not -- as long as it’s executed in such a fashion that feels true to the characters and that resonates emotionally with me... but I highly doubt D&D are going to manage to do that. I have approximately 0.12% trust in them as writers/directors and that’s a generous estimate. Add in the fact that D&D have a fairly limited amount of screen time to build a J0n3rys relationship up from nothing, and the chances of D&D sacrificing true character/relationship development on the altar of expediency rise considerably... as do the chances for an increased amount of ‘telling’ rather than ‘showing’. Just my opinion, though.

GRRM isn’t perfect, but -- partially because of the medium, partially due to his own skills -- his writing of the J0n3rys relationship will doubtless be a lot more nuanced and believable when the characters finally meet in the books.

Actually, one thing that’s really neat about Jon’s relationship with Dany (and with Sansa, among a few other characters!) is all of the narrative parallels and contrasts drawn between their individual experiences. I recently read a piece that argued that GRRM isn’t just deconstructing fantasy tropes with ASOIAF, he’s also very much reconstructing them -- “not tearing the genre apart so much as reminding readers of why it was worth falling in love with in the first place” -- and that really struck me. I like to think that if J0n3rys does end up being endgame in the books, GRRM will use his particular “existential brand of romanticism” to make that archetype feel fresh and real and worthwhile.

Ughhh, I feel you there. Dany deserves kind, platonic, supportive family members. Like Jon, she’s always had a strong longing for a home and family and belonging, and Jon (and through him, perhaps some of the other Starks too) could really fill that role well under the right circumstances. Which isn’t to say that he couldn’t still fill that familial role in a romantic/sexual capacity, but it’s not quite the same thing, y’know? As you said, Dany has never really had someone love her who doesn’t want to bang her (maybe Missandei, but I always thought there was a faintly femslashy subtext between the two of them on the show), and I think it would be good for her to have that kind of relationship in her life.

My feelings re: show!J0n3rys are a lot more complicated than my feelings re: book!J0n3rys, mainly because my feelings re: show!Dany herself are very conflicted. I think most of the criticisms leveled at Dany by the fandom contain validity, but I also think that most of those criticisms are also strongly influenced by fandom’s sexism/misogyny and its attendant double standards. I think that Dany -- both in the books and on the show -- is a very complex character, and frankly I don’t think D&D really get that; I think they see her purely as The Once Underdog, Now Conquering Heroine(TM), and that the GOT narrative is going to reflect this sadly limited viewpoint.

I have a lot of sympathy for Dany’s position and understand why she acts as she does; her traumatic past and the culture(s) in which she was brought up have absolutely shaped who she is today: her fears, her desires, and her methods of achieving those desires. I would also argue that although show!Dany is pretty self-centered, she generally has good intentions. Nonetheless, I’ve become less and less a fan of show!Dany over the years. I have issues with some of the choices she’s made, with her frequent (albeit unintentional on her part) hypocrisy, and with the racist undertones both GRRM and D&D have (accidentally?) inserted into some of her major story arcs (indeed, to the point where I have a hard time mentally separating her from said arcs). If Dany undergoes further character growth that positively alters how she acts going forward, my feelings towards her may change again, but in the meantime… I don’t know. As I said: it’s complicated, and my thoughts about her sometimes even vary from episode to episode. (Heaven knows my thoughts & feelings re: Tyrion and Jaime often shift depending on the episode lol. But that’s a topic for another time.)

I don’t want to see Dany humiliated and humbled, the way many antis do, but I also don’t want to see her as she currently is on the Iron Throne, the way most stans do. I don’t believe she’s insane or currently in danger of becoming insane, as many antis think, nor do I believe that she’s an unusually cruel/terrible/[insert negative term here] ruler and warrior for the society in which she lives. However, none of this makes her inherently the best person to rule Westeros, either.

Although it isn’t entirely Dany’s fault, she knows almost nothing about Westeros -- past or present -- and what little she does know was understandably given to her through a pretty pro-Targaryen lens; this lack of understanding of facts -- and more crucially, of attitudes -- will serve her (and more importantly Westeros) very poorly if she ever becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Yes, having Westerosi advisors can help, but only so much. The monarchy of Westeros doesn’t seem to have much in the way of checks and balances, after all, outside of ‘it’s probably not a good idea to offend any of the major Houses too badly and definitely not multiple Houses at the same time’. Dany is still relatively inexperienced at ruling and is certainly more than capable of learning and improving... the question is whether she’ll allow herself to. Especially now that she has the ultimate power in the form of fully-grown dragons, which makes it even more difficult and dangerous to question or challenge her actions than it would a dragonless monarch like Robert Baratheon.

(Although, since we’re mentioning Robert Baratheon... I get the sense that Dany, like Robert, much prefers the fighting and ceremonial parts of being monarch over the day-to-day administrative parts. YMMV.)

It’s my opinion that Dany has gotten increasingly good at convincing herself that her personal desires are actually selfless and/or inevitable, that her way is the Right Way, that too much compromise is weakness, and that an increased volume and degree of violence on her part is both justified and necessary. This is an excellent piece of meta on the subject; although it’s about book!Dany, it’s still by and large applicable to show!Dany too... in fact, I would argue that in many ways, it’s even more applicable to show!Dany. Dany isn’t the only “good” character in ASOIAF/GOT to harden herself to violence or to make some of these sorts of mistakes, of course -- Jon probably would have been an even bigger disaster if he’d somehow wound up as the ruler of Meereen, for instance -- but that doesn’t remove the validity of these criticisms towards her, either.

Actually, speaking of Jon and Dany, there’s one argument that antis make that really bugs me: that Jon was chosen by his people, while Dany chose herself; meritocratic monarchy vs. hereditary monarchy, if you will. It’s not entirely wrong, but it’s not the full story either. Davos falls prey to this same trap when talking to Dany on Dragonstone, in fact: "He's not King in the North because of his birthright, he has no birthright, he's a damn bastard. He's King in the North because those hard sons of bitches believe in him."

I mean, yes, Jon was chosen by his nobles to be their king, and they do believe in him, but you can’t act like his heredity didn’t play a significant role in that decision. If Jon hadn’t been the ostensible son of Ned Stark, do you really think all the nobles of the North would have called for him to be King, no matter how worthy he was or how much they believed in him? Just look at part of Lyanna Mormont’s speech, for crying out loud [italics my own]: “I don’t care if he’s a bastard. Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins. He’s my king, from this day until his last day!” *rolls eyes* But I digress.

Moving on to address your comments on Jon/Sansa:

Unlike many J0nsa shippers here on tumblr, I don’t think J0nsa is ever going to be canon. Definitely not on the show, and probably not in the books either. And I’m mainly OK with that; that’s what fanfiction is for, after all. (Which isn’t to say I wouldn’t be delighted to be proved wrong re: canon lol.)

I’m very much a multi-shipper in GOT/ASOIAF, and my main fannish wish is that my favorite characters survive to the end of the series. Ideally, none of them irrevocably betray other characters I care about and they all survive and they’re all at least marginally happy, but that’s probably way too much to ask. As I said, I’ll take ‘alive’. Because as long as they’re still alive, a happier ending is still a possibility somewhere ‘off-screen’ after the series ends. Dead, on the other hand, is dead. Sure, I can create AU ‘so-and-so-lives’ headcanons, but I’m still acutely aware that they’re AUs, y’know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yessss, Persuasion is such a great comparison! There’s something very bittersweet and healing about that kind of ship. Shades of a shared past paired with hope for a better shared present and future. The gradual realization that it isn’t too late to find/create happiness. idk, I just have a lot of feelings about this dynamic.

#wow this turned into a MUCH longer answer than i'd meant for it to be #phos replies #3~~#4~~#5~~#GOT meta #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #jonerys #jonsa #meta #things done by phos #long post #GOT spoilers #well sort of but not really

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