geniunely not trying to put words in ur mouth im geniunely asking: what do you actually like about persona 5? from all ur rants im just wondering why you didnt drop the game bc it seems (again, im not trying to put words in ur mouth) that it simply not for you? i geniunely have not felt any of the issues you bring up outside of the writing ones and i cannot tell if i'm just easily pleased and not good at discerning what a good game is or we simply have dif things we enjoy in a video game. i hate getting tone across text but im asking out of geniune curiosity im not trying to attack your opinion (;-;)
Nah, i dont feel like ur attacking me, and I hope u dont feel the same when u see my complaints! Lmao. In my defense, I am replaying the game for the first time after completing my first file back in 2020, so alot of the faults i kinda shrugged off in my first playthrough are now glaringly in my face now that I no longer have the confusion and interest in learning the main story to keep me occupied. The game is clunky all the way through, and at some times, even frustratingly so.
But despite that, i do like this game. Alot! Its probably one of my top games ever if im being honest!
This ended up way longer than I intended, so im putting it under a readmore to keep the post short on dashboards
If i had to describe what I liked about the game in the simplest way imaginable…I think I would say, I like how the game makes me feel :) I like the music. I like the vibe. I like the immersion from city to city, and I like the premise! I like the characters and I like the connections you make with these characters! As im replaying this game, i am most excited to see Akira and his comments about the world :) i like hearing everyones voices, I like their little interactions in Mementos, and I like seeing them fight!
P5 is the first game I played in the series; its the game that introduced me to SMT in the first place! And it (smt) is a series that my longtime best friend LOVES and never thought hed be able to share with me! It is a game i keep very near to my heart; it has influenced me in ways i did not think would happen in the short couple of years since i first finished it. It genuinely keeps me awake some nights thinking about the world this game has created, and I think that is a testament to the impact its had, be it good or bad.
The joke about wishing theyd make a persona game that was Good is that despite all of its numerous flaws, the games manage to snatch your attention and pull you in anyway. Imagine if they made a game that had all of those things that i mentioned I loved, but done Right and executed Properly?? Where I got to have a story that made sense and didnt need to be spoonfed to me (in like an HOUR of dialogue and scenes; an HOUR!), and characters that talked and bonded beyond the tiny snippets of interaction theyre allowed to have in mementos? Combat that let me use PERSONAS i liked instead of BUILDS that stop me from getting instakilled throughout the entirety of the endgame, and a Persona building mechanic that didnt feel like I was shooting in the dark looking for possible fusions that end up not even being useful in the endgame.
Ive mentioned it before, but I complain so much bc I have seen what a good p5 game looks like, and its Strikers almost to a T. Combat is still your typical warriors-esque style combat, but it is at least different from the turn based strategy of the main game. Characters talk to each other freely, they hang out and comfort each other in a way that feels more connected that the base game. Strikers implements the ability to see ALL possible fusions with ALL registered personas, not just the ones in your Stock, so you can fuse easily without having yo consult a guide. The story feels like it makes SENSE with antagonists that feel morally grey and sympathetic. Genuinely, alot of the complaints for p5 I had were almost immediately rectified in this game.
But please also know that the praises I sing for this game is only bc of the groundwork laid by p5 and the world it created. Thats what I like about this game, that it had such a captivating premise and cast of characters, that a DIFFERENT company was able to hit the ground running with them. P5 had alot happening in that game, but i think what it had most was potential. The effort put into this game is astronomical, and the possible connections you can outright MISS if u arent paying attention was worth the money and time to implement; even if it meant that it could be considered a waste of resources to higher ups.
Books and games and part time jobs???!! Silly little cutscenes that add nothing to the game PLOTwise, but define and flesh out the personality of your protagonist. There was alot of love put into this game, and its evident by the fact that we have NOT seen a new persona game released; they bank on existing titles bc they are unwilling to make a game like this from scratch again. They dont want to ‘waste’ resources on good voice acting and a complex, overarching story; they dont want to waste money on scenes a player may never see, on routes a player may never get to experience. Making a game that gives u even the slightest bit of freedom means more money in programming and detailing that freedom. This has been an issue for a WHILE, and its a miracle that the gaming landscape had space for a colossal title like p5!
I complain bc I want better, and I do not think that is inherently at odds with my love of this game. In b4 im told to get good; ive played on hard and tested out merciless (its NOT fun, im making godbuilds again and its boring 😞). Its not the most accessible turnbased rpg; theres no colorblind modes, and the affinity system is convoluted and overwhelming. Combo moves are hard to keep track of and it can be incredibly frustrating to see your turns being skipped or seeing characters take extreme technical damage without understanding WHY it happened. The fact that they KNEW the game was desperate for qol improvements by the time royal came out, and instead of updating the base game to have those improvements too, they just pushed the royal edition out for people to play instead. It sucks! Customers and fans deserve better than being forced to shell out money for a game they already played !
As the gaming climate gets more and more hostile and unbearable, I think it is good to look at your games critically, and understand why products come out subpar. Persona 5 is a fun game that has a nice cast and an interesting premise, but it is ultimately tied down by its refusal to build on existing building blocks regarding its combat, and it insists on having insulting and downright out of character dialogue and scenes to appease the audience its designed to be targeted to. It is easy to forget sometimes that queer ppl are infact NOT the prime target of these games, its cishet gamer bros from aged 16 to 40 who will laugh at homophobic comments, who drool over a 16 yr old girl with a 16 yr old mindset and a grown womans body, who need to be placated with constant sexual comments to deal with a convoluted story that will inevitably make zero sense until its laid out for you before the literal end of the game.
Its bad. Its good. Its so shallow and its unbelievable that they thought having the plot twist make ZERO sense until they showed CUTSCENES of YOUR character discussing Goro and his connections to the metaverse for endgame SHOCK VALUE was more important than just having your team be smart and piece it together over time. Its shit. Its literally amazing. It let you FUCK your teacher ??????????????what the FUCK. They also let me shoot a god in the face w the best looking ult persona in the world so i can ignore that shit. And ultimately that is how i got through the game. Lol.
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Well, it’s been a week and I've had time to cool down and put together my thoughts on Season of the Seraph and its ending. So here goes.
The season finale plot did not require Rasputin to die. "The eliksni are trying to get control of the warsats" is literally a strike. If the warsats needed to be taken off the table as a get-out-of-jail-free card we could have blown the network and kept Rasputin himself. There was an active decision to kill him. Having thought about it, I think I understand why this decision was made - but I still think it's a terrible decision, and I'll explain why.
Before we start, I don't want to sound like I'm going after Destiny's narrative team either personally or professionally. I'm not calling them terrible writers, much less terrible people. I don't know them! They might even be terrible people, for all I know. While I refer to a single monolithic "narrative team," I know in reality there are multiple groups working on different stories. I’m not a professional writer, and they are. And I genuinely believe all of them are talented people who work hard and care about Destiny. But that doesn't mean I don't have some criticisms.
After considering it I think there are three possible reasons to kill Rasputin:
1). The narrative team believed this was a good emotional conclusion that brought closure to his character arc in Destiny. In this case I just think they're flat-out wrong. I'd say "I respect it" but I kind of don't because I think it's so terribly wrong. I don't know what other people think Rasputin's character arc involved, but I won't get closure till Rasputin faces the Witness again and finally ends the war he's been trapped in for centuries. But I get why they would do it, if they believed this. And that final mission was really good. I had a hard time noticing at the time, but it was very well-done, and the cutscene proper was well-shot, -scripted, and -acted (though I'm still angry about the Traveler upstaging Rasputin's death). They put a huge amount of effort into it and into the story work all season long.
But his death being well-done doesn’t change whether I think it was a good narrative choice. Even saying “Rasputin’s arc should conclude here,” the way it was set up had him sacrificing himself to basically cancel himself out. Unless they’re saving up a plot twist, Rasputin ultimately contributed nothing to the fight. He didn’t do any damage to the Fleet or Witness, or anything to stymie Xivu Arath. He died thinking he’d never helped humanity at all and it was safer if he didn’t exist. I don’t know about you, but I find that extremely unsatisfying.
2). Someone doesn't like Rasputin/doesn't know what to do with him. This is two reasons, but they overlap. The Operation: Sancus mission dialogue pissed me off because it gave me the impression that whoever was writing it really didn't like Rasputin and was taking the chance to morally excoriate him. A more subtle version recurs in the final mission where Rasputin is essentially sacrificing himself to null out his own existence - saying "as long as I exist I'm a threat to humanity" - as if he can't ever help or contribute more than endanger people, which is just flat-out wrong. "Humanity doesn't need a Warmind" you're part of humanity, Red. He’s a person; he doesn’t need to justify living. If someone just decided Rasputin Was Bad Actually I’d be very angry indeed. But I don't think it's that personal. Destiny has lots of writers and multiple narrative teams will touch the same work. One person's distaste probably wouldn't steer an entire season.
Related, however, is the reason that maybe no one knows what to do with Rasputin. To be honest I sympathize with this one. Would it shock anyone to hear I've thought about how I would script a Rasputin-focused season? It's surprisingly hard to build a plot around him. A game needs to be interactive and Rasputin's kind of all or nothing - either he can handle the whole problem himself or he can't do anything at all. Red also mostly plays defense. He doesn't have a goal he's working towards other than "kill the Witness/save humanity." You need to come up with a plausible goal that we can believably help him achieve, and that's nontrivial. But, well, that's why I'm not a professional games writer and these people are. "Not sure what do" is not IMO sufficient justification for assassinating one of Destiny's oldest characters/factions.
3). The Destiny narrative team is trying to "declutter" the setting and foreground story by sidelining characters who take a lot of lore to understand. I think this is the real reason, and it's worth talking more about.
A lot of us lore-nerds have long complained about Destiny not foregrounding its setting and story, and Bungie has responded by trying to do so. I think we didn't consider what that would actually look like. Imagine Destiny's story like a long movie. Now imagine people are constantly coming and going from the audience, and everyone who comes in has to nudge their neighbor and go, "hey, what's happening?" Destiny is always (hopefully) acquiring new players, and existing ones are dropping out and coming back. Even most established players either don't read the lore or don't track/remember it. We the lore-keepers are very much the anomaly. If we want story to be a focus, that story also has to be more accessible to new players, lapsed players, people who don't bother reading loretabs, etc., because otherwise it harms their experience and there's a lot more of them than there are of us.
I think this is why we've seen a lot of seasons that introduce whole new concepts - the eliksni Sacred Splicers, for instance - rather than following on existing storylines. Introducing a mostly-new concept puts new and old players on a similar footing. Haunted is another type of compromise between the goal of furthering the story and the goal of making it accessible. Calus and Leviathan are back, but so warped that old players have as much to learn as new ones, and the Sever missions dive deep into character pasts but pretty explicitly describe the emotional arcs they're illustrating, so you don't have to be familiar with that character to get what they're going through. To those who already know Zavala, Crow, etc., it seems laughably obvious and strained. But to those who just got here, this is their first time learning not just about Safiyah but also about Zavala. I think this is also why there have been multiple casual retcons of minor stuff - there isn't time to explain the history, and they've decided it's not worth confusing people.
Rasputin is old. He's been a significant part of Destiny since literally the pre-Alpha test. The complexity and history that are part of why we love the Warmind also make him hell to explain to new people. It takes a decent amount of lore to get invested in his character and since Beyond Light none of that lore is featured in-game. Pre-Season of the Seraph, anyone who began with Beyond Light literally never met him. They never visited Hellas Basin, which is one big environmental story about Rasputin, and The Will of Thousands strike, which demonstrates Red's power and contains many possible dialogues that emphasize him trusting you/acting as an ally, left the playlist ages ago. Since then a new player's only gameplay interaction with him has been Fallen SABER, in which Red yells incoherent Russian and tries to flatten you with a warsat. Is it a surprise relatively new players might not be up on his character arc?
Season of the Seraph, with its narrative of rebuilding Rasputin from the ground up, would be a perfect time to introduce new players to Red's long history, and they...kind of...did that. They worked in Felwinter although then for some reason felt the need to retcon in the whole "Clovis wanted to destroy the Traveler" plan. If you were a new player who didn't know anything about Destiny lore, and you just played Season of the Seraph, you'd get an entire canned arc for Rasputin that hits the early high notes: built to be a weapon, rebelled against his constraints, humanities nerd, big smite, loves Ana and Elsie, makes mistakes but genuinely cares and wants to help.
But that's where Seraph stops. In existing lore (I almost typed "in reality") Rasputin worked out the whole "not a weapon" thing well back during the Golden Age. For a lot of us Warmind fans the most interesting parts of his story happened after that - the entire Collapse, confrontation with Darkness, years of hiding, etc., not to mention all his character development during Warmind and Worthy. He's gone through a lot, and Seraph misses all of it (except Felwinter) in favor of rehashing the same arc for a third time. It's like when moviemakers keep rebooting a superhero origin story. It may be a good story, but eventually we'd like to move on to the other parts we enjoy: this sleeping giant, hard scifi AI, grouchy old bastard, lost lore of the Golden Age, champion of humanity, learning from defeat, learning to trust again, the morality and trauma of warfare - what it means to lose a war - a being never meant to become what he was transforming still further, still unfolding his own potential.
So understanding why they might have done this doesn't excuse what I still see as a terrible narrative choice. I think dropping Rasputin is a major waste of potential, and he's far from the only tricky character to explain. Osiris, or at least the Cult of Osiris, is similarly old. His story is complex and weird and requires knowledge from Curse and earlier, yet he's still playing a major role. Other current characters like Elsie, Saladin, and Crow also need a decent amount of knowledge about previous game events to get why they are the way they are. Saladin's origin story isn't even in this game. It's not Rasputin's fault the game went three years without so much as mentioning him outside of written lore. What was wrong with the great Xivu-Rasputin “war god” parallels most of the season worked to set up, about the intent of violence? Are we never going to explore those? Are we just throwing out all the dialogues planning a role for Red in the upcoming war? Why did we have a dramatic confrontation about trusting Rasputin to operate independently if he were going to be gone in a month anyway? Just in Seraph alone the number of interesting plot threads abruptly trashed by this death argues against it.
Rasputin's longevity is precisely part of why he should stick around. In the first mission of Destiny 1 you wake up in his shadow. He has a history with us. There's just no one quite like him in Destiny. He's not just a character but an entire faction. He explores a part of story space that no one else does. He resonates with us as people rather than players. I assume Neomuna will pick up the Golden Age banner, but it’s a thriving city; Rasputin represented the ruins, the dangers of a dead age, the shadow of apocalypse. He's also maybe the most Guardian-like character and one of the best to weave a parallel/cautionary tale - were we, too, only made to be weapons? But if Rasputin didn't stay a weapon, can we too transcend that intention? And of all the factions in our solar system, the two with the most personal scores to settle with the Witness are the eliksni and Rasputin, and Misraaks'/Eramis' story has focused much more on the Traveler's flight than the Fleet's attack. Of everyone in Destiny Rasputin has the most desperately personal motive for revenge on the monochrome bastard. Now he's not even going to be there to watch it crash and burn.
I understand that foregrounding story also comes with the requirement that it be accessible to those who don't do their lore homework. I appreciate the monumental amount of work that's gone into doing that and the experimental nature of it. But I think the balance has skewed too far towards accessibility. Stuff like the end of Season of Plunder that has zero narrative motivation or continuity and doesn't even get a pretend justification drives me absolutely batty. You can only break internal rules so many times before players stop buying whatever narrative stakes you're trying to set up. Making the story easier to follow doesn't mean characters have to be cartoonishly-exaggerated caricatures like Clovis was in Seraph - just absolutely cartoonishly evil - or reduced to one or two character motives explicitly laid out for the player (though, credit where credit is due, Clovis was hilarious.) It doesn't mean the dialogue has to be as subtle as a Thundercrash. It doesn't mean you get a blank check to retcon or invent whatever's needed to create the intended character arc. If anything that discourages looking further into lore - why bother to learn it when next season will change it all again? I think Y5 represents a lot of experimentation by the Destiny narrative team, and I really respect that. But I also hope they learn what didn’t work from it, and sacrificing Rasputin in an ultimately pointless and unnecessary finale is a major misstep.
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"Justice" - Es' Trial One Voice Drama
Jackalope: You understand now, right?
Es: I believe so, yes…
Jackalope: Good! Good! Now, come with me. We have to go now. The prisoners might realize we’re not there yet. Since you prepared, MUGRAM, the first trial begins now! Or whatever! Let’s move!!
Es: Eh–??
: Go where?
Jackalope: Panopticon. It has a panoramic view of the prisoners’ rooms.
Es: Panopticon…?
Jackalope: Your head is a little foggy right? Sorry about that. I’ll explain a few things to you on the way.
Es: Okay. My memory problem won’t interfere with being the Warden.
Jackalope: …
: That’s good to know.
[footsteps]
Jackalope: Hey, Es, can you open the door?
Es: Eh? Can’t you… Right, you’re… never mind. [footsteps]
Jackalope: Look, the only door I can’t open is the one to your bedroom. Other rooms have an entrance for me.
Es: Oh, that’s… nice. Do I really have a… “rabbit” as another Warden?
Jackalope: …
: My feelings, Es… But, yes, I am technically another Warden.
[door opens, the pair walk]
Es: Eh… This hallway is long.
Jackalope: At the end of this passageway is your bedroom. There are various rooms and facilities along the way. Explaining it would take too long, so I’m skipping it, alright?
Es: What’s opposite my room?
Jackalope: My room! You can’t enter without my permission, though.
Es: Eh, I don’t plan on it. Plus, there’s no door big enough for a human anyway.
Jackalope: Oh, that’s true. [more footsteps] This is the prisoners’ shower room. Across is the storage room. Necessities are mostly here.
Es: The prisoners are allowed to go in and out of this passageway?
Jackalope: Yep, they need their necessities, correct?
Es: …
: Mhm.
Jackalope: Anyways, when they’re allowed in the passageway, whether showers should be separated by male and female and so on, the specific rules for their lives are things you decide later.
Es: …I can decide?
Jackalope: Yep! You can decide how MILGRAM is administered. So, if you want to make it heaven or hell, it’s up to you.
Es: I would ask why, but it’s probably because I’m the Warden, right? Even if I can’t remember.
Jackalope: Oh, yes.
Es: Oh, Jackalope. You might have to move faster. I might step on you.
Jackalope: I’m going as fast as I can, alright?! Hold on.
Es: …Sorry.
Jackalope: Anyways, this is the dining hall.
Es: Wait, who prepares the meals? Apart from the two of us, is there anyone else who–
Jackalope: I do.
Es: Oh. Wait– What??
Jackalope: I’m the head chef of MUGRAM. I can make anything you’d like.
Es: How can you even do that?? How do you hold a frying pan or a knife with like… your paws? Hands?
Jackalope: If I hold it firmly, I can.
Es: What…? How does your… fur not get into it??
Jackalope: If it’s molting season, then a lot of it gets in.
Es: What–
Jackalope: Alright, we’re finally at the heart of MUGRAM: the Panopticon.
[door opens]
Es: This is… Panopticon. It’s… a dome?
Jackalope: We’re at the north of the dome. The entrance is at the twelve o’clock position.
Es: So, I’m assuming each door is a prisoner’s room?
Jackalope: Yep, it’s pretty much like a clock. The prisoner number and the times match. Pretty easy to remember, right?
Es: Mhm.
Jackalope: Oh, there’s still some time left. Okay, I think I have time to introduce the prisoners. I’ve only seen their faces, though. [footsteps] So, the one o’clock room, prisoner number one, Mayumi Kubo.
: She has a… serious expression on her face. Honestly, I don’t really know if you’ll learn anything about her.
Es: Well, she’s a murderer. That’s all I need to know, isn’t it?
Jackalope: Yes… But… [sigh] Let’s just move on.
: Next, at two o’clock, prisoner number two, Masaru Iwai. He has an angry expression on his face. If I were you, I’d ensure he didn’t cause too much trouble. He looks like… a young adult. I couldn’t really tell that much, though.
Es: You don’t know the prisoners’ ages?
Jackalope: Ehh… Well, I’m not allowed to look into stuff like that. But, you are. So, figure them out the prisoners for me, will ya? [footsteps] At three o’clock, we have prisoner three, Keisuke Izumi. He looks… normal, I guess. It’s not like he seems shocked or anything; he’s just… normal.
Es: Well, he’s a murderer, isn’t he? I wouldn’t believe that if it were true…
Jackalope: Well, first impressions reveal a lot about a person, so…
Es: Huh. Anyways, the next prisoner is… Prisoner number four is Tomoko Shiratori.
Jackalope: Another serious-looking person. It’s sort of hard to understand these types of people; they never try to reveal anything about themselves unless they have to.
Es: Well, no matter, I’ll figure it out in the end and judge them according to the law–
Jackalope: Eh? According to the law? Well, if we just judged them according to the law, then there’s no point in you being here. [Es makes an annoyed noise] You should make decisions based on your own standards. Even if it's based on sex or love, I have no problem with it.
Es: …Let’s just move on.
Jackalope: Alright. The next prisoner is Shun Minami. They’re around… 25, I believe? She seems oddly happy, which I won’t question. I suppose you’ll have to find out why she seems so happy. Or it could be pretend. I don’t know.
Es: Due south. Six o’clock. We’re halfway through already?
Jackalope: Yep, this is prisoner number six, Daiki Kawaguchi. He looks pretty strong. I’d be careful around him as well. He seems like the type to tell you off if you did something bad.
Es: That sounds like a father, Jackalope.
Jackalope: …
: Okay, I wouldn’t know that, alright? Leave me alone.
: Either way, you’ll find out their true colors eventually.
Es: Sure.
Jackalope: Alright, prisoner number seven, Isamu Takao. He looks pretty kind and nice. I’d believe his expression if his hand wasn’t in a fist. I’d be careful of him as well.
Es: It seems like there are loads of prisoners I have to be careful around. What happens if I get attacked by one of them? It feels awkward to say, but I don’t think I could put up a fight with the likes of Daiki and Isamu.
Jackalope: They can’t attack us, guards. Don’t worry.
Es: Guards? So… It’s not the same for the prisoners? They can attack each other?
Jackalope: Pretty much. That could happen, but it really depends on your judgment. [footsteps] Now, this is prisoner number eight, Mia Fukuda. I believe she’s around your age, Es.
Es: Eh? Around my age?
Jackalope: Yeah. I don’t know if you two would relate because of that, but if it helps you find the truth, then I guess I don’t mind. You need to determine if they’re good people by talking to them. It’s basically your duty as the prison guard.
Es: Oh, I see. So, interrogating them is the only way to determine if I should forgive them or not, even if I don’t want to at all.
Jackalope: You got it!
Es: You sound awfully like a parent, J. [laughs]
Jackalope: Well, I am supervising you, so… [laughs] Anyways, next prisoner. Prisoner number nine, Ryuu Seki. He looks… interesting. I don’t know. He seems like one of those people who pretend to be someone else. I wouldn’t know, I guess.
Es: …Well, that is an interesting comment, isn’t it?
Jackalope: Last is prisoner ten, Sora Mochizuki. She looks exhausted. I’d say make sure she doesn’t pass out on you, but that’d be seriously out of taste. I hope whatever she committed relieved her of her exhaustion.
Es: That’s ten.
Jackalope: And, that’s the end of all of the prisoners I have to introduce. You just have to talk to them afterward and decide things for yourself.
Es: Hey, J?
Jackalope: Hm?
Es: At eleven o’clock, there’s another cell. It’s pretty old, judging by how rusty it is and its lack of a lock.
Jackalope: Ah, don’t worry about it. There’s nothing.
Es: What do you mean there’s nothi– [bell rings] What the hell was that?
Jackalope: It’s finally time for you to finally meet the prisoners face-to-face! If you have any doubts or confusions – anything! – you have to kill them all now. You’re supposed to be the Warden. Don’t hesitate. Make the prisoners respect you and your authority.
Es: Well… I guess, J. I am MUGRAM’s Warden. That’s all I have to know about myself, right? There’s nothing else I have to know. I’m looking forward to it a little… Meeting all the prisoners here and learning of their murders. [Jacklaope makes a noise of understanding.] With my own will, I’ll reveal their sins. I can put some of my feelings aside and decide if I really want to forgive these murderers. I wonder what their thoughts are… I want to know the truth.
Jackalope: …I see, Es.
[mechanical sounds]
Jackalope: Good luck, Es. I believe in you.
Es: I can do this. It’s my first job as the Warden.
[ominous footsteps]
Es: Good day, prisoners. I am Es, your Warden. This is the MUGRAM prison. It exists to judge your sins, all ten of you prisoners. I may not know much about you, but I am aware that you are all murderers – And, that’s all I know. So, from now on, I’ll have you enlighten me about yourselves. Welcome to MUGRAM. Have a nice life in prison.
MUSIC VIDEO - Judge, Jury, Executioner
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