okay, its This Post if you want to go look, but I'm not going to reply on the thread cause I have writing to do tonight and, like I said, yelling at a brick wall does no good. But I WILL take the opportunity to point out a couple things that are common mistakes online during discourse and how you can manipulate a response.
Under a cut because most people don't find examining fallacy and post analysis interesting.
To start, here's all responses of the thread in a simplified form:
Post about voting against Trump
Post from Ohsalome supporting OP with a reference to a commonly heard complaint about Biden (that he is supporting Israel)
Post supporting OP, with a reference to a statement from Trump about creating a dictatorship.
Post supporting OP, talking about the dangers of Trump globally.
Post about the use of Russian misinfo in 2016, discouraging voting and dividing progressives from more moderate dems. Also that it is visible today about Gaza.
Me, supporting OP, and #5, acknowledging the existence of nuance, and adding reminders of Trump being awful.
Quote of someone's tags in support of people voting
Arabian Knight shifts tone and topic, sounding more like Trump, and throws out a lot of directionless insults at the rest of the thread.
Arabian Knight again, misquoting #2, turning a statement into a scare quote that they use to expand on their insults.
Anathema comes in, loudly outraged by the quote Arabian Knight presented in #9, claiming it came from Ohsalome in #2
Wet Paint arguing for people to vote in a primary against Biden (there is no primary btw, this is not an option) and then tagging me and my quote, to claim that I think American lives are worth more than Palestinian lives.
So. That's an excellent example of how fast online conversation can be derailed by one person, and how misquotes and misrepresentations can invent a new conversation and scandal.
Fast analysis version: Arabian Knights changed the quote - maliciously or not - Anathema only reacted to the last post, with the false quote. Now in an emotionally charged setting, Wet Paint responded emotionally, colored by the anger of Anathema and Arabian Knight's posts.
Slower version:
High in the thread is Ohsalome who (Im not tagging folks in, do not do so for me) references a hypothetical argument against Biden. They don't say a specific source, bc its a simplified version of the hyperbolic complaint that shows up on a lot of posts lately. "he is murdering palestinian babies" Many progressives are rightly horrified by Biden supporting Israel, and don't know how to square that with voting for him. To me, that's a fairly clear and obvious generalization by Ohsalome, ymmv. Highlighted below.
In response to Ohsalome, Arabian Knight abbreviates the hypothetical quote, reducing it to just the phrase Palestinian Babies, and places quotes around only those two words. Yes, those are words that Ohsalome said, but you should basically never trust a tiny quote if someone is hinging an argument on it. That change turns it from a hypothetical quote from someone talking about why you wouldn't vote for Biden, and implies that Ohsalome themself was using scare quotes and doubting the existence of Palestinian Babies killed in the attacks on Gaza. That is not what it says or implies. It is a manipulation by Arabian Knight (statistically, this wasn't intentional manipulation, just tumblr's reading comprehension fails) But by putting that cherry picked phrase in quotes, it shifted the meaning and tone of the entire thread.
Then they bring in the accusations - and to be fair if Ohsalome DID claim that the dead in Palestine were fake, that would be super fucked up - and Anathema jumps in to back them up, responding exclusively to a misrepresented quote, not the original, and not the context of the original. They're specifically mad about quotation marks implying that there are no dead Palestinian babies, which - Again - were placed as scare quotes by Arabian Knight, not Ohsalome.
Anathema then takes another step to move the argument into emotions and morals by citing their own reaction to images they have seen.
See how fast it's turned into emotions? You already know that pivoting into emotions is a super effective way to manipulate someone. In this case, it took a post about hey, we really gotta prevent Trump winning, and made it into whether those people therefore, personally support murdering babies. You make that jump with emotion. Anything else, and people notice it.
Now.
I got tagged into this despite getting skipped by the misquote kefuffle. Here's what the new contender, Wet Paint, said, and the grab of what I'd said in my response.
This time, its not a misquote or a modification of a quote. Props for that. Yeah, it skips the context of the rest of the comment, but that's the nature of pulling quotes. Which is why you have to get in the habit of going back to the source to check context. I know its obnoxious, especially in the age of paywalls, but. do it anyway.
What Wet Paint does instead is create a false dichotomy. If I thought it was done intentionally, I'd almost be proud, because my post IS talking about a dichotomy... but not the one they are. I was talking about how its going to be Trump or Biden. A dichotomy.
They remade it into a zero sum scenario where it is Biden or Palestine. They've added the assumption that by saving American lives, you are killing Palestinians. There are times when that situation exists, so, this can easily sound like something you should stop and consider. And honestly? Do that. Pause, consider, and when you do, go chase down the source and see if you're missing something.
If a situation is as clean cut as 1 for 1 exchange of life, holy fuck, grab a pitchfork and give me a call so I can grab mine.
I'm not repeating my statements from that post. That's not the point right now. I just wanted to talk about how arguments get shaped and twisted online.
If I was a russian actor, and I wanted to manipulate this conversation to divide voters and increase Trump's odds of winning, the above is a really good starting point for how to do it.
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A Favor for a Gift
Danny's new to the superhero scene, and he gets on rather well with Martian Manhunter.
He decides to give J'onn a gift, because he came across J'onn in a melancholy mood, and the Martian explained that he was homesick. Danny learned a lot about Mars and Martian culture, after telling him that he could vent to Danny if he wanted, and wants to do a little something to help J'onn out.
He goes to the Zone, searching for Martian ghosts to talk with. He finds Ghostwriter. Or rather, Ghostwriter finds him.
He proposes a deal.
He'll let Danny have two very old, very rare Martian books; but in exchange, Danny owes him. Big Time.
Danny....asks what the favor would be, cuz he's not about to agree to that without knowing what he's agreeing to.
Ghostwriter needs Danny to go enter into a Ghost Fighting Competition, the biggest in the Zone, because the prize is a book that not only does Ghostwriter not have, but the only copy of it's kind ever.
Danny agrees; he kicks ghost ass all the time, a fighting competition shouldn't be a problem. Pff. He'll be fine.
Okay he's a little nervous.
He pushes it down.
He gets one of the books early, as trade for even entering the competition in the first place, and rushes to give it to J'onn.
He's trying to psych himself up for the fight, but his intrusive thoughts keep making him remember the fights he's lost. He's just not good with stage fright! Fighting as a hero is one thing, but fighting in a competition is nervewracking!
~~~~
J'onn, getting a surface read of Phantom's mind, is concerned.
Due to Phantom being dead, not all of his thoughts are...legible. J'onn only gets flashes here or there, maybe emotions.
J'onn just got a flash of a coliseum, with stands filled to the brim, and another flash of Phantom losing in a fight.
Phantom is nervous.
Phantom, who's powers are so strong he can fight on equal footing with Superman, is nervous.
It is not the normal anxiety he can feel from the young ghost, it is something else.
Phantom tells him that he knows where another book is, he just needs to win it.
J'onn has heard of how Vicious Infinite Realms Ghosts can be, and it is reasonable to assume that Phantom being nervous is a direct result of a fight he knows he can't win.
A fight he's going to try to win anyways. For the sake of a book.
Phantom is worth more than a simple book.
Phantom disappears before J'onn can request that he not do that, leaving the Martian standing there with a book older than he is, with the knowledge that one of his friends is about to face...something. Some sort of danger.
And all J'onn can do is wait.
Naturally, he refuses to do that and calls the JLD to track down Phantom.
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Bingqiu roleswap where disciple Shen Yuan knows he's gay, and figures out that he has a big huge crush on his handsome Shizun, but also concludes nearly at once that he's not going to be drawing Luo Binghe's eye any time soon. Firstly, Luo Binghe is notoriously straight. Secondly, even if he weren't, he wouldn't go for his scrawny untalented nerd of a disciple! Shen Yuan's not bad looking, not before or after transmigrating, but he's neither a beautiful nor a hot manly man, and he assumes if Luo Binghe were into dudes he'd be into the same kinds of twunks that Shen Yuan likes. Guys on his own level, etc etc.
Plus Luo Binghe hated the original disciple Shen, and only started to warm up to the transmigrated version after Shen Yuan got injured in front of him trying to stop the other disciples on the peak from killing a small animal. For some reason, Luo Binghe brought Shen Yuan medicine. He got even nicer after Shen Yuan distracted the skinner demon by trying to convince it to take his skin instead of Luo Binghe's, and then again when Shen Yuan successfully fought off a demon invader -- though initially when Luo Binghe volunteered him for that job, he thought it was an assassination attempt. His heart was in his throat when Luo Binghe nearly took a poisoned blow for him, but luckily he reacted more quickly and got hit by the thorns instead. His heavenly demon blood took care of the poison, and he managed to convince everyone that he narrowly avoided getting cut at all.
Shen Yuan's careful not to read anything into it when Luo Binghe finds out about his, erm, uncomfortable dormitory situation and moves him into the side room, or when he completely messes up trying to make dinner and Luo Binghe takes over cooking and bans him from the kitchen (he swears he's not actually that bad at cooking, he just never had to use a kitchen without a microwave or an electric hot plate before...)
After all, it's not like Luo Binghe is cooking for him, he's just making food he likes and letting Shen Yuan eat it too! Because he's nice! He's way nicer than the book gave him credit for being, see, clearly Shen Yuan was correct in signing up for his defense squad, "top ten worst villains of all time" his ass that poll was nonsense...
Unfortunately, though, the plot's still gotta plot. Shen Yuan is heartbroken when the Immortal Alliance Conference rolls around and his shizun stabs him and throws him down into the Endless Abyss. Heartbroken, but not surprised. After all, it was always going to go this way, wasn't it?
But at least, now that it's done, he has some agency in how he reacts to it. He's changed the story enough that he doesn't need to go get revenge. Maybe Luo Binghe's still the villain of his story, maybe that was inevitable, but some heroes let the villains get away. Don't they? It's all part of that noble, breaking the cycle of abuse type stuff. He can be that kind of hero. He can let it go. As long as he avoids Luo Binghe altogether, it should be fine, right? It's not like he's obligated to turn people into human sticks. He asked the system, he's definitely not!
Technically he's not even required to conquer the demon realms. He just has to get out of the Abyss and the be sufficiently cool and/or tragic. Conquest is just one means of doing that, and not even Shen Yuan's preferred, since he doesn't exactly want to rule over anybody. Going around the demon realms beating up some jackasses and rescuing some damsels in distress and becoming sworn brothers with Shang Qinghua, one of the current demon kings, is suitable. He definitely doesn't want to marry any of the damsels he encounters (thank fuck the system lets him off the hook for that!)
But eventually he has to go back to the human world. Not only is it mandated by the system, but he also misses living there. The demonic realms are in many ways better than expected, plus a lot of the monsters are really cool, but he misses the weather and plants and the people he's more accustomed to being around.
He misses Qing Jing Peak, if he's being honest with himself. Shizun's cooking and the bamboo forest and the crisp mountain breezes, the comforts of home.
Not that he can actually go back there in specific. Of course not. If he did that, Luo Binghe would try to kill him, or else the system would try and make him kill Luo Binghe. Bad ideas all around. No, he can't go back to Qing Jing Peak, but he can go find someplace nicer than the demon realms at least. He just has to keep a low profile, which shouldn't be hard since the original goods did that even while actively scheming to kill his former master!
Except.
Everywhere he goes, suddenly Luo Binghe is also there?!
Good thing Shen Yuan thought to take a page out of the book of Luo Binghe's actual love interest, Liu Mingyan, and start wearing a veil. He just didn't want any randos who might have seen him at the Immortal Alliance Conference or on any of the other missions his shizun sent him on to recognize him. But one minute he's investigating a strange case in Jinlan City, and the next the streets are full of Huan Hua cultivators (Shen Yuan has no intention of joining them, that's the path the original took to getting revenge! He doesn't want revenge!), and then Luo Binghe and Sect Leader MBJ and Peak Lord SHL show up, and SY is ducking down alleys and hiding behind columns, just trying to stay out of the way until the lockdown on Jinlan lifts and he can leave.
Except...
Luo Binghe really isn't acting like himself?
He looks like he hasn't been eating or sleeping well. There are dark circles around his eyes, and something almost melancholy in his countenance. And he's dressed entirely in white, none of the usual Qing Jing greens and blues anywhere to be seen. Of even greater concern, he's being reckless. Shen Yuan can't stop himself from rushing out when he sees his former shizun get infected by a sower demon.
Luckily, it's been some years since the last time they saw one another. Shen Yuan's gained a few inches in height, so he's almost at eye-level with his old master now, and though he's still more slender than bulky he's picked up some totally new styles from training the demon realms. He doesn't move the same way he used to. With that, plus the veil, it's enough for him to quickly swallow back his words as he grabs Luo Binghe and quickly administers a cure for the sower infection.
Well, he has one of course. He wouldn't need it himself, heavenly demon blood and all, but his time running around playing hero in the demon realms meant he rescued a lot of humans from such fates. Which is hard to do if you don't have a cure to their afflictions, but between him and Shang Qinghua, sourcing such things was almost easy.
Luo Binghe looks at him like he's just seen a ghost. The other Cang Qiong sect members are alarmed by SY suddenly accosting one of their own and of course find him suspicious, so he runs away right after, and then he has to lose Sha Hualing's pursuit in the city.
But what else could he do? He manages to evade the system's attempts to railroad him into meeting Gongyi Xiao, avoids the rest of the Cang Qiong crowd, and drops some of the cure through the current Qian Cao peak lord's window to get the incident sorted out. Then he flees and puts a good amount of distance between himself, Jinlan City, and every righteous sect he can think of.
The only problem is that after this point, Luo Binghe is everywhere.
Any time Shen Yuan stays in one place for longer than a few days, Qing Jing disciples start turning up. Any time he takes a job hunting some cool-sounding monster or pursuing some interesting tome of knowledge, the better to satisfy the system, it seems like Luo Binghe has selected and gone after the exact same target! Which is especially annoying because back when SY was a disciple, Luo Binghe was always assigning him to do this stuff. Since when does his chronic homebody master have an interesting in six-tailed scorpion lemurs or ancient spiritual kilns?
What's weirder, though, are the rumors.
It seems like any time SY stops at some well-populated place and asks for the latest gossip, he has to hear about how the Qing Jing peak lord lost his beloved disciple during the Immortal Alliance Conference, and mourned like a widow, and now wanders the earth in search of solace for his grief. Seeking something, possibly even the ghost of his dear disciple.
What nonsense! Luo Binghe threw SY into the Abyss himself. He had to do it, it was the plot! And also his obligation as a righteous cultivator, confronted with a "dangerous" half-demon. Does it sting? Yes it stings! That's why SY wouldn't just forget it! Despite logically knowing it's pointless, is there some part of him that wishes his master would have chosen differently? That thinks he should have known that no matter what kind of power Shen Yuan had, he would never use it to hurt people recklessly, or harm innocents, or especially not harm... well. It's pointless, his blood condemned him, and if there is some part of Luo Binghe which regrets what happened, it's doubtless just that he unwittingly harbored a monster for so long.
Which is fine and Shen Yuan would leave it at that, if the guy would just let him!
But no. Instead he has to deal with Luo Binghe turning up and asking him questions, trying to get him to talk (SY has no hope of disguising his voice, if he says anything he's not even sure it won't crack as he comes perilously close to tears instead, so he just stays silent), and then asking for his name, asking if he's mute, asking about his background, his sect, his kin. Is his a righteous cultivator? Where did he get that sword? (NOT Xin Mo, thanks, he used that thing once and then tossed it back into the Abyss before the portal finished closing behind him -- he knows a poisoned chalice when he sees one, although knowing the plot twist about that sword from the novel sure helped.) Where did he learn those forms? Is he... does he have a safe place to go home to? Someone to tend his injuries? Make sure he eats his meals?
SY, of course, stays silent. But it's difficult. Not only because Luo Binghe asks, but because he still looks... bad. Sunken, sorrowful, desperate almost. Shen Yuan can't figure out if he knows or not. Maybe he's unsure, maybe he's looking for SY to give him a sign, so that he can figure him out and then flip a switch and try to finish the job he started.
That can't happen. If they fight, SY will win, and he doesn't want to hurt Luo Binghe.
But even if Luo Binghe's not a heavenly demon, he is a highly accomplished cultivator, and it seems he's got his own breaking points to reach. Eventually he corners SY and gets a hand on his veil, and for a moment SY is sure he's going to rip it off, see his face, and confront him all "I knew it was you, you twisted evil demon, you won't escape justice a second time" and he feels a deep, icy terror close around his lungs--
Luo Binghe lets go of the veil before he can lift it.
But then something even worse happens. Because Shen Yuan's handsome, peerless, noble master breaks down. He falls to his knees, begging forgiveness, sobbing, clutching at his head like he's being driven to madness.
It all spills out of him, then. How he pushed his own dearest disciple into the Abyss, which obviously SY already knew, but also how he was apparently qi-deviating the whole time, and his senses could not differentiate between one kind of demonic "threat" and another. How he realized what he'd done only after he regained his senses hours later, and rushed back to the place where the tear to the Abyss had opened, but could not find a way in after the one he lost. How he had betrayed and thrown away the only person who cared about him, and couldn't even explain that he hadn't intended to. How he would accept anything, any punishment, hatred, penance, or revenge, if only he could see his disciple's face once more.
SY is stunned.
Apparently, Luo Binghe hadn't rejected him for his demon blood?
Not only that, but beforehand, he seemed to have valued Shen Yuan a lot more than Shen Yuan would have credited.
Is it a trick? Is he lying? SY would have guessed so, would have assumed that Luo Binghe's plan was to lull him into complacency only to turn on him once he finally had confirmation. But somehow, he just... doesn't think this is an insincere display. His old master is too cool for this stuff! He has too much dignity to just throw it away on a scheme! There are other ways to get what he wants.
Even if it is a lie, Shen Yuan is tired of running. He's the hero. He won't actually lose, and if it comes to it, it's still in his hands to decide if he wants to spare Luo Binghe or not (he does, of course he does, even if this whole spiel is an act). Plus he's got a backup plant body in one of Shang Qinghua's greenhouses if all goes to shit.
He takes the veil off himself.
Luo Binghe, teary-eyed, stares at him as if his face is the most beautiful he's ever seen.
Shen Yuan nearly puts the veil back on. His cheeks heat up. Dear Shizun, aren't you an immortal master? A noble peak lord? Isn't it your calling to vanquish demons? Get up off the dirty ground right this minute! Where did your dignity go? Shen Yuan did not spend all those nights doing the laundry to watch his teacher dirty his knees for no good reason!
There's a quaver in Luo Binghe's voice as he points out that Shen Yuan was terrible at doing laundry. Luo Binghe had to redo it the day after, all the time.
Shen Yuan chides at him that he should have made one of the other disciples do it then.
Luo Binghe just laughs, and stays on the ground, until finally Shen Yuan has to physically pull him up. Muttering about how he's being ridiculous, what's he crying for, why's he been moping so much, doesn't he know that handsome face should never look so bereft? Then he realizes what he's saying and shuts his mouth, but Luo Binghe just looks happy for the first time in years. Since the Abyss. How is it possible that SY, who actually had to slog through that awful place, can still smile more than Luo Binghe, who didn't?
They're standing so close. Holding on to one another. Almost as if... as if the scene's tone is... well...
Oh what the hell!
Shen Yuan closes the last little bit of distance between them, and kisses Luo Binghe.
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i have been unmedicated for the entirety of spring break and thus have had little interest in writing this down, but i have been thinking about this for the entire week (as well as a dpdc clone danny au that resulted in it becoming its entirely separate batman au that includes a teenage vigilante bruce wayne, an ocarina, and me entirely incapable of making a batman au without making bruce dirt poor but we're not talking about that) and so i've finally went 'fuck it' and forcibly grabbed my laptop. I will get this done in one sitting even if it kills me.
BUT. This is about neither clone^2 danny nor about who i am calling Ocarina Batman. This is about my Danyal Al Ghul Au and more SPECIFICALLY it's me thinking about his relationship with Sam and Tucker specifically.
Tucker and Sam? Adore this asshole (affectionate) with every fiber of their being. And it is very much a reciprocated feeling, but Danny's thoughts will not be delved into much other than he would kill for them.
Tucker? The only person currently capable of getting a deep, loud, belly laugh out of Danny. Sam can get him to smile and to laugh, but it's the kind that's a chuckle-under-the-breath. The quiet, looks-down-while-huffing laughter. Snorts once with laughter and then grins stupidly.
But Tucker? Tucker can crack a slew of stupid jokes and Danny will be incapacitated for the next five minutes because he's laughing so hard that he can't breath. He lands one well-timed pun or quip and Danny will be close to tears. His laughter is their favorite sound in the whole world.
Sam is lowkey jealous of this ability, and she's gotten a belly laugh out of Danny a few times. But alas, it is Tucker who wields this power and has gotten it the most times out of the two of them.
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They're also both physically affectionate with Danny as much as possible. It started roughly around when they were 12-ish, a year since they befriended Danny, and they noticed that he sought after touch but never seemed to initiate (and was in some ways repulsed by it). They started slowly being more touchy with him. Hooking a finger around his to lead him somewhere, tapping his wrist, looping arms. Little touches, grabs, etc, to get him used to it, and once he started doing it back they started increasing it.
It's gotten to a point where he will now just. Lay on them. Like a lizard sunbathing on a rock. Leaning on their backs when they're sitting in class before the bell rings, his chin on their heads. He'll talk about anything with his arms looped around their shoulders.
If they're sitting on a couch at either of their houses, he'll lay his legs on theirs. Him and Tucker will press their feet against the other's and try and push against them (newsflash: Danny always wins, Tucker claims its the ghost strength but Danny's been winning since before his accident)
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Naturally, both Sam and Tucker know where Danny keeps his weapons on his person, and are allowed to grab them off of him if they need it. His only requirement is that they don't lose his weapons if they take it and forget to return it immediately.
They both understand how big of a thing this is from Danny, and so they do their best to treat his weapons with a lot of respect and care because they know its his way of saying he trusts them.
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Sam and Tucker are so fond of Danny it's insane. Like fr. That's their goddamn best friend, and they are so protective of him. Emotionally, physically, you name it. They will tear the head off a grown man if they need to, Danny's had scars since he arrived in Amity Park and Sam and Tucker both are going to find the person who put them there and make them pay for it.
One time, Tucker overheard a bunch of upperclass girls speaking nastily about Danny and about the rumors surrounding him, calling him names like 'freak', 'monster', etc. Danny was with him and heard it, and seemingly appeared unbothered by it, even telling Tucker that he was used to such rumors.
Tucker was so furious that hacked into the school system later that night and tanked those girls grades. They were kicked out of their clubs and had to go to mandatory tutoring for the rest of the year. He made sure to leave some way of letting them know it was him who did it.
And Sam doesn't like using her money for things, doesn't like abusing that wealth. So instead, whenever her parents talk bad about Danny, she causes a media incident that has her parents scrambling to deal with. She does something wild, outrageous by her parents' standards.
She heard some boys on the basketball team making fun of Danny once, similar to those girls had. She kicks up a fuss about something eco-unfriendly at school and forcibly holds a protest on the same day of the big home basketball game, forcing them to cancel the event and reschedule to a visiting school.
She anonymously donates money so that there's new uniforms for the team but oops! Looks like she "forgot" to donate enough money for them to get uniforms for all the team members, and strangely enough those boys in particular didn't get them! Looks like they'll have to wait until more money gets donated for the basketball team to get their new, nice uniforms. The old ones look so ratty in comparison, right?
And since the football team gets most of the sport money, that might just take awhile. And if (and when) they kick up a fuss? oops! Off the basketball team you go, :) such unsportsman-like behavior is unfit for the team.
(The only good thing about how corrupt the school system is is that she can use it to her advantage too.)
The both of them know that Danny suspects them for the sudden misfortune falling on these people, but he doesn't call them out on it. He's kinder than he used to be, but not kind enough to vouch for people who speak badly of him. Sometimes, he might just congratulate them on not getting caught.
Because Danny is their wonderful, hurt friend with a "slightly" Blue and Orange Moral code, and enough scars that people have been calling him a criminal (and worse) since he arrived in Amity Park when he was ten. And they'll be damned if he gets hurt anymore.
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