#it's not misogynistic to like them more than Sansa

[fromtheseventhhell]

Mind you the "girl bosses" in question are Dany: who has been sold as a bridal slave at 13, been on the run and feared for her life since she was born, rarely known safety and security, been used as payment by her abusive brother and further abused by the husband she was given too, who has made it a point to protect other women around her from further harm despite having little agency, who faced multiple assassination attempts and the painful loss of her child, vowed to defend others who couldn't defend themselves, has faced constant misogyny on her journey to doing so, has put her own ambitions on hold in order to help others, and is currently the only character enacting wild scale revolution in order to protect a class of people nobody else is fighting for. And Arya: who has been on the run since the end of AGOT starving and scared, has been thrust into a warzone and directly affected by the violent impact, was witness to the horrific torture of the smallfolk by the mountain and his men, was captured and forced into servitude at Harrenhal, was beaten and threatened with sexual violence, who has witnessed countless people she cared about die including her father, mother, and brother, and who still remembers those who lost their lives when nobody else has and done her best to get justice for them.

Yeah, It's soooooo feminist to treat these two female characters like they're lesser because they aren't traditionally feminine. I find it funny how the ones who talk about the importance of valuing "feminine" strengths are the same ones who erase them from Dany and Arya. All of their intelligence, kindness, empathy, etc. get thrown out and their characters are reduced to ones who only know violence. Even the suffering and abuse they've gone through is treated as less impactful and they're given no sympathy. It's an interesting circle of them being misogynistic so that they can justify their misogyny to themselves. It also highlights how little they believe in the things they're saying. Supporting "feminine" characters has just become a convenient way of propping up their favorites; feminism is nothing but a disposable tool. If they actually cared then they wouldn't be rewriting characters to make them seem more "masculine", and in fact wouldn't care about that distinction at all. The female characters have a lot of overlapping experiences afterall.

No one is saying you have to like Arya or Dany, but being misogynistic toward them and trying to disguise it as feminism is disgusting. There's also no way of doing so that won't inevitably reflect poorly on the characters you claim to love. There's nothing productive about making such restrictive boxes for female characters. If you really don't care about them then you don't have to talk about them. It's as simple as that. But if putting them down is the only way you have of propping up your fave, then maybe it's time to find a character that you actually like.

#daenerys targaryen #pro daenerys targaryen #arya stark #pro arya stark #anti bs #fandom nonsense #anti jonsa stans #anti sansa stans #hurray for putting down these young girls who have faced incredible violence and abuse because they aren't traditionally feminine! #and I love how they used my post to start shit-talking Arya and Dany when I didn't even mention Sansa in the post! #they literally treat liking Arya and Dany as Sansa hate it's insane #sorry but Arya and Dany are the two main female characters they're just going to be more popular 🤷🏾‍♀️ #on top of that Dany is arguably one of the most iconic characters of all time #it's not misogynistic to like them more than Sansa

[queenaryastark]

Someone needs to explain to Stansas that terms have meanings and they can't just be thrown around at random to mean what they want them to. Newest example of this: Calling Arya and Lyanna pick-me girls because... they don't like them and they want Sansa and Dornish!Sansa (they erroneously refer to this OC they created as Elia Martell) to have more importance in the story.

So, what is a pick-me girl? It's a girl or woman who is desperate for male approval and validation, often at the expense of other women. They'll change themselves to fit a particular man's preference and trash other women to boost themselves up.

In short, Stansas are essentially acting like pick-me girls on a fan level by trashing other female characters to make their self-inserts look better. Meanwhile, Arya and Lyanna are never shown behaving that way. Ironically, we actually see Sansa behaving like a pick-me first when she lies to make Joffrey like her:

“I hate riding,” Sansa said fervently. “All it does is get you soiled and dusty and sore.” -- Arya 1.5, AGOT

---

Joffrey reflected a moment. “We could go riding.”

“Oh, I love riding,” Sansa said. -- Arya 1.5, AGOT

Like a true pick-me, she lies about her preferences to fit what Joff wants. Arya naturally likes horseback riding rather than it being something she does to fit with someone else's preference. If anything, it's used against her as she's bullied over it.

Also, Sansa later trashes Arya to the queen and council specifically so she can marry Joffrey:

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey’s loyal and loving wife.” -- Sociopath Throws Family Under Bus For Boy She Likes, AGOT

"I'm not like Arya," or did she say, "I'm not like the other girls"? She does something similar in her mind to Jeyne Poole earlier in the novel by presenting herself as superior because she's not like her:

Jeyne covered her eyes whenever a man fell, like a frightened little girl, but Sansa was made of sterner stuff. A great lady knew how to behave at tournaments. Even Septa Mordane noted her composure and nodded in approval. -- Who's Who of Westeros Info Dump, AGOT

Weak girls have emotional responses to witnessing violence, but not Sansa. She's not like them lol

So, if one were to apply the concept of the pick-me girl - a woman who trashes other women to uplift themselves and changes themselves to gain male approval -- it would be Sansa. Trying to misapply that term on Arya and Lyanna only proves that the person misusing the term has no clue what it means. GRRM wrote Arya as feminist while Sansa, her foil, was created as the opposite of her, meaning she's sexist.

I swear, the misuse of pick-me has become the new "Not like the other girls" in this fandom. These terms weren't initially intended to demonize women for NOT fitting patriarchal ideals. It's the opposite. The terms are pointing out the ways the misogynistic women (ex. Sansa and Stansas) will trash other women by insulting other women who are different from them as a way of validating themselves.

#arya stark #lyanna stark #asoiaf

[lord-armitage]

ASOIAF Characters Ranked of How Likely They Are to Survive A Horror Movie

Robb Stark - 4/10

The likeable, grounded voice of reason comes up with the best strategies but delays things by ignoring Grey Wind's instincts. Will die either as a heroic sacrifice during the climax or at the end of the second act to ramp up the stakes.

Cat Stark - 0/10

Dead before the story began. She's the reason why the Starks decided to have a fresh start in a new town living in that creepy old mansion. Maybe her possessed ghost will enter the story, but she's already gone.

Ned Stark - 1/10

"No, children, this house is definitely not haunted. What you are hearing at the end is just the floorboards settling. There's no such thing are ghosts or monsters. Maybe we should take your direwolves to the vets as they keep barking at nothing during the night?"

Sansa Stark - 5/10

Could go either way with Sansa. She'll either be the girl who dies first if the scriptwriter is a misogynist, or the final girl if not. Either way, she's getting absolutely drenched in blood.

Ayra Stark - 10/10

Of course Ayra surives. There isn't even a question that Ayra Stark won't survive a horror movie.

Daenerys Targaryen - 10/10

Dany is literally the final girl in her own story, so she's the final girl here now. There has literally never been a character created with more final girl energy than Dany.

Tyrion Lannister - 2/10

Gets way too confident in his intellectual ability to defeat the monster. Will have a moment where he thinks he's defeated it by chanting something out of an old book, but doesn't spot check to make sure it's really gone and ends up getting killed.

Jon Snow - 9/10

The quiet one who knew exactly what was happening right from the start because he trusts Ghost's instincts. While everyone else is arguing about the monster being real, he's getting weapons. Fully aware of what genre he's in.

Theon Greyjoy - 0/10

Theon was born to be the drunk frat bro who dies first in a horror movie by doing something insanely stupid, like opening the door for the zombies or thinking that he can fight the monster himself. He would also be a character to purposefully hide his infection/bite/whatever, thus dicking over the other characters.

Asha Greyjoy - 8/10

She knows that she's in a horror film and takes it all in her stride. Most likely character to quip. If she doesn't survive, then she'll be killed in the big climatic action scene at the end, weakening the monster enough so that the last person standing now has a chance to defeat them.

Stannis Baratheon - 0/10

Authority figure who angrily refuses to acknowledge the strange goings on in this town and refuses to do anything about it as "ghosts aren't real." Is one of the first ones to die.

Loras Tyrell - 10/10*

*Loras survives by sheer technicality. Ten years ago he would have been killed for sure but now the writers are worried about being cancelled for using the bury your gays trope, so instead of killing him they write him out of the story so it doesn't technically count.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #Robb Stark #Sansa Stark #Ayra Stark #Daenerys Targaryen #Tyrion Lannister #Theon Greyjoy #Asha Greyjoy #Stannis Baratheon #Loras Tyrell

[swallowtail-ageha]

Scrolling through your asoiaf tag and you have such good and correct opinions like how can anyone love just Dany or just Sansa or just Arya like how can anyone not see the parallels between Dany and Sansa it makes me feel so crazy like why are there so few people who love all the girlies?? I genuinely love every single female POV character and can’t imagine hating any of them. I mean sure yeah Cersei is a villain but you’re telling me her tragedy doesn’t touch your heart? Watching this woman desperately try to avoid her prophecy as it unfolds before you doesn’t have you in a death grip? Or like are you unmoved by Sansa telling an annoying snotty little boy how brave he is because she wants him to feel better? Dany comforting Missandei when her brother dies? Arya getting to the house of the black and white and immediately thinning to being a man a cup of water (or at least what she thought was water)? How about Sansa telling Joffrey she hopes Robb cuts his head off? Dany sassing the man who wants to open the fighting pits? Arya telling Jaquen to kill himself? Like please come on. All three girls are obviously different but they share so many very endearing traits. I am fiercely holding tight to my delusion that Dany and Sansa will bond over stories and songs and Arya will teach Dany about all the flowers in Westeros and then Sansa will show them how to make flower crowns and embroider little emblems on Arya’s clothes

First of all tysm!!!!

The whole arya vs sansa vs dany fandom fight frustrates me to no end, mainly because all parties involved seem to have little to no empathy to the characters whose stans they oppose. It's all maliciously extrapolating some parts of the text to make them see worse than what they are (ex: daenerys' "if i look back i am lost" getting twisted from "dany knows that dwelling on what ifs and turning your back after you have taken a commitment will only damage you in the long term" in "dany doesn't want to reflect on her past mistakes and will go mad and get stabbed to death" or sansa getting frustrated at sweetrobin being a sign of her being ableist and classist while it's. Just a normal reaction of a stressed and traumatized 13 yo who is otherwise very sweet to her cousin)

For loving the female characters same! Even those who commit outwardly villainous acts do get lots of humanizing moments, Cersei, as awful as she is, is simply a product of the hyper misogynistic society she lives in plus years of parental and spousal abuse (and the doomed by prophecy vibes) and. I genuinely don't get how people can look at the walk of shame and say it's a fitting punishment to her crimes

Overall all the hate for female characters that are more complex or more driven or more morally ambiguous than what most female characters are presented as in other media in a fandom who (supposedly) prides itself in liking morally ambiguous characters is.. frustrating, really. I blame both fandom misogyny but also the GoT series, as it's outright changes in female character's actions and stories to make them look better or worse than what they originally were skewered the visions of almost everyone in the fandom (arya is an egregious victim of this. Scenes such as her caring for Weasel or her befriending sex workers in braavos don't exist and they added that "all girls are idiot" scene that i hate and they removed all her plan to free the northmen from harrenal and she got turned from traumatized child to hashtag no one super cool assassin and her character got straight up murdered in the tv series.)

Oh and also for kickstarting the whole jonsa vs jonerys thing which i'm pretty sure is the origin of the stupid dany vs sansa wars

And yes!! Dany Sansa and Arya should get to meet and reunite! While i do think that there will be some slight tensions between Sansa and Arya because they left on Not So Well terms, they have also matured a lot, so i do think they would have an heartfelt reunion. Meanwhile Dany and Arya could bond because of both their connection to Braavos and Arya's admiration for those who free slaves, and Dany would empathize (and feel a common ground) with Sansa for her being a child who had all her family die and got married extremely young while beeing creeped on by older men, while Sansa, who is shown to admire women like Margaery or Myranda, who are shown to be very keen regarding politics or social issues, something that Dany is

In the end, i genuinely hope that all three of these traumatized little girls get their happy ending and none of them dies, they all are interesting and complex characters that share parallels with each other, and it sucks that because of stupid ship wars or discussions on who would get the throne they get pitted against each other. THEY WOULD BE FRIENDS Y'ALL

#anyways i am holding onto the hope that ADoS ends with dany legalizing gay marriage and marrying sansa #sorry if it gets super rambly and incoherent anon because i always tend to do this when i get an ask #i just want to tell you that your ask made my day and it was all on point!!!! i hope you have a nice week month year life #asoiaf

[daenerysstormreborn]

I still think there’s a chance Dany doesn’t become a villain in the books because her characterization IS different in the show but I don’t think it’s really fair to claim the only reasons people think she’ll become a villain are misogyny and hatred of her and desire to see her get a bad ending. Yes there are Dany haters and misogynists who believe this but those are not the only reasons.

I love Dany. What I desire for her is not necessarily what I believe will happen in the story. I’m still split on what I think will happen and I’m keeping an open mind. What I want for Dany is a happy ending where she is loved and can live in peace. If I was in charge of the story, I’d have Dany participate in the battle against the Others and, in the process, really get to know and understand the people of Westeros and realize that claiming the throne could not happen peacefully. I want her to choose the path she wants deep down and not the path she was told is owed to her. She does not seem to particularly enjoy ruling. Based on my interpretation, what Dany wants is a home. She wants love and acceptance and belonging. But growing up with Viserys she’s come to believe that she is owed the throne and has a duty to rule and she doesn’t know what else to do. This isn’t because I think she’d be a bad ruler (it is hard to judge who would it wouldn’t be a good ruler when they’re young teenagers). I just don’t think it would lead to a happy ending for her. I don’t want the IT for ANY of my favs.

However. This is just what I WANT for her. There are many things in the show that are clearly made up completely by D&D, like replacing Jeyne Poole with Sansa. However, I don’t think something as major as Daenerys, one of the main characters who has been presented as a hero thus far, destroying King’s Landing is something D&D would just pull out of their asses. It’s just such a major event that effects literally every other surviving main character. It’s hard for me to buy the idea that villain Daenerys isn’t an idea that GRRM at least floated to them. It was super rushed and poorly executed, as was the rest of the show. But it’s just hard to buy the idea that these men whom GRRM trusted would do something that entirely betrays his ideas for the story. And GRRM REALLY had faith in them. He did NOT want there to be an adaption of his series but they won him over. I do NOT want this to be the trajectory of Daenerys’s character but I just can’t pretend it’s not a very real possibility.

And then there’s the original outline. Yes, many things have changed since then. But George refers to Dany as a “threat.” This demonstrates that at least at one point, he has toyed with the idea of her ultimately posing as an antagonistic force to Westeros. Is this enough evidence to say without a shadow of a doubt that this is what George will do? No I don’t think so. Not a single one of us can say what he’s going to do with this story. There’s also a very real chance that Winds is taking so long because he decided to make major changes after seeing how GoT was received by the public but I’d like to think he has more integrity than that. But again, I just don’t know.

I want Daenerys to be a hero. The ending she got in the show was so, so tragic and would be heart wrenching if it had been executed well. As a big ol Jon lover, I don’t want that ending for him either. There are characters who are obviously on different trajectories based on major changes the show made to events (Sansa), characterization (Arya), or statements GRRM made (Jaime). But I just can’t say for sure that that’s true of Daenerys. If any other Daenerys fans who are 100% convinced without a show of a doubt that she will remain strictly a hero, I would love it if you’d add onto this post and tell me why!

#asoiaf #daenerys targaryen #valyrian scrolls #asoiaf meta #in my heart of hearts Jon and Dany go explore the rest of the world on dragon back

[bbygirl-aemond]

All the Laws Viserys Violated by Making Rhaenyra His Heir

Hi hi! I'm in the midst of writing a post about Otto's motivations throughout HotD and the portion about why Otto was so sure Alicent's sons would end up as heir when he pushed her to marry Viserys got wayyy too long so I'm just going to write it here.

I cannot emphasize enough how crazy it was that Viserys kept Rhaenyra as his heir. He has literally no law or precedent to back him up; every single possible precedent actually works against him. Full disclaimer, I genuinely think Rhae would make a good queen and support her over Aegon, but I don't think Viserys made her heir for the right reasons and I think because of the following he was setting her up for failure.

First, Westerosi laws of inheritance say that a woman cannot inherit if she has a trueborn brother. This has always been the case. Remember that as of right now Dorne is NOT a part of the Seven Kingdoms, so the Seven Kingdoms unanimous in its institution of male-based primogeniture. There is literally no region under Viserys's domain where a woman is allowed to inherit if she has any trueborn brothers. You'll never find any instances of a woman being made heir when she has surviving trueborn brothers. When we see women in power, like Jeyne Arryn or even Sansa Stark, it's always because they either have no brothers or their brother is occupied with another title. And honestly, in like half of these cases the title gets passed to a woman's uncle rather than going to her if she's the sole child.

Second, the Great Council of 101 set the precedent that even if a woman is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, she should be passed over for a male. Rhaenys was Jaehaerys's heir according to Westerosi laws of inheritance as the only child of his previous heir, so she was even backed by the actual law and precedent. And the threat of war was dangerous enough that it forced the literal King of Westeros to concede matters of his personal inheritance and violate precedent just to pass over a woman. That's how sexist they are!!! They literally broke the law so that they could be MORE sexist!!

Third, Widow's Law specifically stipulates that it is not meant to be used to allow a woman to inherit over her trueborn brother. I know a lot of people think this law can actually be used to support Rhaenyra, but I think this ignores the context of the time. Remember, even though Alysanne wrote the law, Jaehaerys is the one who implemented it and is the only one who had the final say in its wording. And, as mentioned above, Jaehaerys straight up does not have the power to allow women to inherit, even when the law is backing him up. He's also a super misogynist and has proven unwilling to listen to Alysanne on feminist matters. So I'm not sure why people think he'd have the desire or the power to instate a law that says a daughter from a first marriage gets to inherit over a son from a second marriage. The lords would never allow something like that, because most of them use and discard their wives for the sole purpose of gaining male heirs and I guarantee there would be a moral panic about women getting too much power the same way there eventually was with Rhaenys and Rhaenyra. And not just the lords, but Jaehaerys would never allow something like that: They're all grade A misogynists, remember? That's why Widow's Law specifically placates the lords by assuring them that their precious eldest son can still inherit before even introducing the new law. Because Jaehaerys knew he wouldn't be supported if he said that women could inherit when they have trueborn brothers, so he made sure everyone knew he wasn't trying to do that.

So Viserys has 0 laws and precedents backing his decision, and 3 laws and precedents that his decision outright violates. And he keeps Rhaenyra as his heir anyways, out of guilt to Aemma. This is why I think Otto was genuinely flabbergasted by Viserys's decision; because he demonstrates remarkable awareness of the misogyny in Westeros and is fully aware that this WILL incite rebellion. He says it himself: It doesn't matter to the lords of Westeros how good or kind Rhaenyra is. They've demonstrated, time and time again, that they will not allow a woman to inherit a title, including the Iron Throne, if there are ANY trueborn male relatives available--AND that they have the power to force the King to let them decide his inheritance!

TLDR: Viserys really did Rhaenyra dirty. He made and kept her his heir out of guilt about Aemma, not out of love for Rhaenyra. And he did this knowing that it violated every single precedent or law relating to inheritance out there, and knowing that previous kings weren't able to uphold their female heirs, even when they had a stronger claim than Rhaenyra would have, because the lords threatened to start a war over it. And that's not even getting into how he completely failed to teach her about politics and did nothing to prepare her to become Queen.

This is also part of why people say it's not just about Rhaenyra's bastards. I fully agree that having them weakened her claim even further, but what you need to understand is that Rhaenyra was doomed from the start. She was doomed by the misogynistic laws, and by the misogynistic precedent, and by the misogynistic lords who never tried to hide that they'd start a war if a woman inherited the throne. And Viserys put that burden on her anyways, and put her and her children's lives in genuine danger, all so he could feel better about his decision to butcher his wife.

#meta #hotd meta #hotd #house of the dragon #team black #i know people say i can't be team black when i acknowledge that westeros is sexist #but i think westeros is a shithole that shouldn't work that way #AND i think rhaenyra should have been queen #so i'mma still tag it as team black #nuance people nuance #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra #viserys i targaryen #viserys targaryen #viserys #viserys i #jaehaerys i targaryen #jaehaerys targaryen #jaehaerys i #jaehaerys #widow's law #the great council #fire and blood #fire and blood meta #show #books

[daenerysies]

Honestly, I think the Alicent stans are gleeful about what the show did to Alicent's character because now they can fully indulge in their dislike of Rhaenyra (all Targaryen women because apparently, they're all evil whores who don't fit into the image of a perfect Westerosi Lady), prop up Alicent's "suffering" as something aesthetically pleasing, and fixate on Alicent being a repressed lesbian "betrayed" by her crush and how Rhaenyra is a spoiled brat who abused poor baby Alicent. Don't even get me started on the constant comparisons they make between Sansa Stark and Alicent Hightower. "ALICENT WALKED SO SANSA STARK COULD RUN!" The theme is not only worrisome but nauseating.

that seems to be the case, doesn’t it anon? i think it feels vindicating for them, due to the whole ‘she spent her entire life suffering in the name of duty and honor, she deserves a conciliation prize’ like you mentioned (maybe there’s some deeper trauma that needs to be looked into for some of them idk) as if said 'prize' doesn’t end up costing her her entire family. the way they’ve written her in the show just screams the glorification of abuse. she’s allowed to physically, mentally, and emotionally abuse her own kids in their eyes bc she too was abused, every misdeed she commits is because she was abused, etc. she isn’t allowed to just want her son on the throne despite the set-back it would do to women, she has to have some sort of sob story to make her seem more sympathetic bc women can’t just be against other women without reason (eye roll) or be antagonistic in general without reason. the queer plot-line was also not needed seeing as it was doomed to fail from the start and its existence dives deep into queerbaiting and even racist territory; subsequently, they decided to make the velaryon’s black and then completely sideline laena, rhaenyra’s actual queer love interest, in order to uplift and pair the sad white woman with her instead (which is strange since it seems like most rhaenicent shippers loath rhaenyra, but i digress). she’s not a complex character; she’s one-dimensional, inconsistent, AND the result of hypocritical writers not being able to understand that victimization doesn’t automatically mean interesting.

it also feels like half the time her stan's can’t decide if all of her suffering is bc of the men in her life, or if it’s *somehow* all rhaenyra’s fault that she was put in that position. the show has attempted to switch the power dynamics at play by aging alicent down and rhaenyra up, but it doesn’t work simply bc alicent still has more power than her as queen consort (and still spends around 10 years without otto's influence bullying and ostracizing rhaenyra, which is not how a mother terrified for her children's lives would act in the face of their would-be murderer). furthering that, the lack of critical thinking skills is blatant in this fandom and shows when they attempt to vilify the targaryen's (especially the women, yikes) because they only do so to uplift their own boring favs. show!alicent, and by extension, both media's versions of helaena, are passive characters who conform to and uphold the patriarchy, they’re the perfect type of women for incels and pick-me’s to glomp onto to ‘prove’ they’re not misogynists (see? we DO like women! (only if they’re submissive and don’t fight back ofc)).

the only comparisons between sansa and alicent would be their show characters. only the latter half of got for sansa makes any since comparison wise. she too was a character that was further victimized to make her seem more interesting and righteous in the show writers efforts to make her qitn (and also to further the bullshit mad queen dany plot line). sansa is still quite a compelling character without adding in an unnecessary rape plotline, but if they hadn’t included it the only similarities between these two women are that both are apparently redheads (nope) and bastard-phobic (debatable). that right there is where any and all similarities end. in reality, alicent is the cersei to rhaenyra’s sansa, not the other way around.

the fact that many consumers (especially the women) seem to like the adding of an abuse storyline to these characters is so gross, and really telling of how the media has construed the reaction one should have to gender-based violence (or benevolent sexism). they condemn and pity these characters for what they go through, but in the same breath, praise the writers for adding ‘nuance’ to these women’s stories. worrisome indeed.

#asoiaf #fire and blood #hotd #got #hotd critical #anti alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #laena velaryon #helaena targaryen #sansa stark #daenerys targaryen #anti rhaenicent #anti alicent stans #faye answers #anonymous

[horizon-verizon]

This is about the show only:

Viserys, as the King, is the patriarchy, and Rhaenyra is only able to get away with rebelling against it because Viserys lets her. Viserys expects Alicent to be a dutiful childbearing wife but let’s Rhaenyra do basically whatever she wants because he feels guilt for what he did to Aemma. And Rhaenyra is okay with that. She doesn’t care about other women suffering. She only wants to bend the rules for herself.

Instead of being angry at Viserys for marrying Alicent she is angry at Alicent, who had no choice. Alicent has been maritally raped by Viserys for years. She dutifully bore him three sons and daughter. They even all have the Targaryen look and ride dragons. She did her duty, and he still doesn’t give a shit about his kids with her and clearly favors Rhaenyra. Still, Alicent took care of Viserys for years when she could have just let him rot. She may not love him romantically but she clearly cares about him, despite what he did to her.

Alicent has been a saint, because if I were her I would have poisoned both Daemon and Rhaenyra and also Viserys to protect my children. Alicent, as a victim of Viserys has every right to advocate for her children and put them first. She has every right to want Aegon to be king, not because she’s some woman hater like y’all think, but because she’s simply a mother who wants to protect her children and frankly deserves to have her bloodline on the throne after everything she went through.

She doesn’t even want Rhaenyra dead, she still cares for her despite everything. Alicent isn’t perfect but neither is Rhaenyra. You can support and root for Rhaenyra while acknowledging that Alicent does have a point and that the story is not black and white. I understand why Rhaenyra wants the throne but I also understand why Alicent thinks crowning Aegon is necessary.

Special Note: Since the show's world is the same as the ASoIaF canon's, the cultural, legal, and political laws and situations and contexts I will bring up are all valid. Plus, I've made several posts as to how this show is garbage in terms of writing and characterizations & basic consistency. This post will put that aside (for the most part) to be Watsonian.

*EDITED POST* (4/7/24)

Can you do something for me, anon? Point out to me a single scene or family that is actively preparing to usurp Rhaenyra before any of the greens did. We see Borros shout at Lucerys, but did you actually see him with troops and supplies stored places in preparation to usurp Rhaenyra BEFORE Aemond arrived?

Alicent's kids were always safe. You, like her, took Otto's words for granted, and for why?

I explain how Otto and Alicent were wrong about the lords rebelling (w/o green interference) all in my points below.

A)

Let's take a breath. Imagine what having a female Queen Regnant--not just a Queen Consort, Queen Dowager, or Queen Mother--would do for any other woman seeking power in a male-dominated society that frequently abuses its own women from noblemen to common blacksmiths (Megelle).

There is now a precedent (since people shout "what about precedent?!") of a female leader. Such that would socially justify and legitimize further other female claimants of noble seats across the realm.

Jeyne Arryn is an example of a woman who would have benefitted even more from Rhaenyra ruling, even w/o Rhaenyra being Aemma's daughter and thus Jeyne's cousin. Her rule of the Fingers, Vales, etc. would have had much more confidence and power than if Rhaenyra hadn't had an unencumbered reign as a woman in her own right.

("The Blacks and the Greens") -- the greens looking over list of those who could support them:

("A Son for a Son") -- Jeyne's reasoning for supporting Rhaenyra:

But because Rhaenyra not ruling, what happens? For years, women/girls like Arianne Martell, Sansa and Seren Stark, and Jeyne Poole (Arya Stark, if she hadn't gotten out) are even more abused--physically and emotionally--by power-seeking/misogynist men.

You bleat about how Alicent is abused. Well, by her participation and actions in usurping Rhaenyra, she made life worse for all women in Westeros. Because the idea that women should not be leaders and that men should always have power over them became stronger (posts and reblogs by brideoffires).

If Rhaenyra had been allowed to rule, would any of what happened (during the Dance) to the common-born or any noble person in and out of King's Landing have happened? NO!

B)

Rhaenyra had been heir for at least 12-13 years in the show and Lord Caswell was killed for trying to escape and alert her. I'll bring up the book once here just so my point is supported: those oaths that Viserys had the lords make for Rhaenyra? Most followed through and supported her throughout the actual war...that the greens started. Many of them enthusiastically did so. (Frey, Blackwood, the Arynns/Jeyne Arryn). Even a Stark, Cregan, kept fighting for her.

And a quick note: Also, do you know another person who plunged Westeros into war based on their anger at a handful of people for merely personal AND unjustified reasons (I will explain how Alicent is unjustified to be against Rhaenyra way below)? Aegon IV against Naerys and Aemon for their possible affair and Naerys birthing Aemon's child. It was said that Aegon believed Daeron, his official son, to be the bastard son of his siblings Aemon and Naerys.

In this case, Aegon IV was the type to prefer everyone suffering if he had no control, instead of doing as Viserys I did (if it was true or not, that part really doesn't matter politically) and kept hypothetical non-bio-son as his protected heir. I say "protected" because by naming all his bastards legitimate on his deathbed, Aegon IV endangered Daeron II's body and claim.

Yet this show will have us think that Alicent thinks always or mostly in the favor of "the realm" and unselfishly. And a huge reason why I that Alicent presents as "unselfish" more than hypocritical by the show's wriitng rather than her own hypocrisy is because Rhaenys--the resident supposed "wise" woman--has named Alicent as "wise" depsite immediately following that up with Alicent only making "windows" in the "prison" their patriarchal system shoves her into.

Another way is the effect of the Nymeria page she sends to Rhaenyra to try to dissuade her from war and just accept Aegon's rule...reminder, this page is of a woman nonDornish Westerosi would think a woman abnormal for her being a ruler onto herself AND Nymeria was a woman who while had to flee her past home and war with many lords for her people to survive....like Rhaenyra in this situation, aso had to fight wars (even when they were of conquest) to ensure her people's survival. She changed Dorne not for any noble reason, but for necessary self-oriented reasons of survival. And she's remembered as one of the most influential, important figures of Westerosi history, having created an entire different and lasting society in Dorne. Nymeria being framed as abnormal or cautionary--like Rhaenyra & Alicent have been in the in-world document of Fire & Blood--is par for the course and if Alicent was trying to be cautionary to Rhaenyra through the cautionary example of Nymeria, it would make sense for Alicent to do that. But it doesn't, really for Rhaenyra to fully & sincerely accept that line of persuasion. In other words, we shouldn't be validating--if what I said abt Alicent trying to use Nymeria as a cautionary note to Rhaenyra and not something like "remember when we used to be friends?!" way--and saying her reasons AND her way of ending a war are justifed or good...because she's still stealing something, one of the only things Rhaenyra has had that a man is allowed in this world.

MOST of the Westersi lords were in support of her and her "bastard" son Jacaerys. There were no real, substantive pushback or material war preparations against her for a real rebellion. Helaena was safe to marry Jaecaerys and become Queen herself, but Alicent refused why exactly? Because Jaecaerys was, to her, a bastard unworthy of her daughter...

C)

AND because she was still angry with Rhaenyra for...what exactly? Because Rhaenyra lied about "losing her virginity"?

Why does this matter to Alicent, when it is the fault of her father for making this public news? Why couldn't this be kept secret, as all the other times a noble girl/woman has had affairs and bastard children? (I get into real-life scenarios of kings actually allowing their wives to birth bastards and have lovers way below). Hint: Otto wants Rhaenyra to be replaced above him doing his "duty" to Viserys and actually being a good Hand. To pretend otherwise is a delusion.

Let's review the context of Rhaenyra's lying to Alicent (scroll down to "The Context of Rhaenyra’s Lie in Episode 4").

D)

You: "Viserys, as the King, is the patriarchy, and Rhaenyra is only able to get away with rebelling against it because Viserys lets her."

1.

Did you witness episode 6, where Alicent nearly lead most of the council meeting while Viserys sat close to her?

We are meant to understand that over the years, Viserys lets Alicent do more and more. He also allows her to demand Rhaenyra's children be brought before her every time they were birthed or not long afterward, knowing that Alicent wants him to call them bastards and declare them as such.

Customarily, Queen Consorts don't sit in councils unless their husbands allow it. Otherwise, they aren't included. Alysanne was involved because Jaehaerys allowed it.

But do you hear of any Queen Consorts joining the council After the Dance? Was Naerys involved when Aegon IV ruled? What about Daenaera and Aegon III? Shaera and Jaehaerys II? What about Rhaella and Aerys II? Cersei and Robert?

No, again, it is after the Dance that women are customarily excluded from substantive politics even as a Queen Consort. (Queen Dowagers or Mothers do not count because the king is usually their son/stepson who is either too weak to rule independently or officially too young like Alyssa Velaryon was for Jaehaerys).

You need to remember that Alicent is trying to force Viserys' hand and reveal the boys' parentage to everyone so her own sons get support, knowing he did not want this, knowing that he is king.

Like Rhaenyra pointed out about Otto tailing her, questioning the heir/princess about their business and especially the parentage of their kids is treasonous (without concrete proof, and honestly she has none because one can never prove another's parentage at this point in history AND they had room to claim that the boys could very well have inherited darker features from their Baratheon kin).

In this light, we can say Alicent acts "treasonously". Yet Viserys lets her get away with it instead of putting his foot down. Doesn't really matter that he was ill and rotting, he was able to muster the strength later when he was sicker so that anyone who questioned Rhaenyra would not be left alone to live. Why couldn't he do this earlier, when he was healthier and stronger?

Yes, Viserys ignored her about the Velaryon boys...what did you expect him to do, renounce and abandon his daughter just because she birthed kids, not Laenor's? And make Corlys' ire worse? The guy who WANTS Luke to inherit Driftmark? Not only that, ruin his daughter and the house's images more than if he did as he did and allowed them to be legitimate? Then wouldn't Viserys be a worse father? Alicent was suggesting trash "advice" on that, both politically and personally.

So really, it seems you want him to be evil to Rhaenyra alone, rather than actual fairness.

2.

I don't think you watched episode 4 well.

I agree that HotD!Young Rhaenyra is freer than Jaehaerys I's daughters of the book. But what Viserys gives Rhaenyra is actually not much choice or room at all. unlike Jaehaerys' daughters, who have both parents one of whose problems were that there were too many children,

Rhaenyra's mother's death by Viserys mission to get a son AND her immediately being named his heir gave her new unique anxieties and burdens.

Her distance and rebuttals are all results of Viserys taking her friend as a wife and breaking one of those few bonds left to her. Because you can't be your stepmother's/Queen Consort best friend when she will birth other competitors (at this point, show!Rhaenyra was in deep doubt).

In that episode, we see how much choice he actually gives Rhaenyra:

Not letting her speak, not working with her to shut down Otto

dismissing her concerns about Otto until she gave him an ultimatum, which only seemed to work because he already suspected or disliked Otto

Not considering how it would rather benefit her claim to marry her uncle, as was the point of all those incestuous marriages between cousins and siblings and uncle-niece/aunt-nephew both in Valyria and Andal/FM Westeros.

*not in the episode, but still a part of this* marries her only friend, knowing that she is literally her only friend, all so he can avoid marrying another younger girl and have his cake/eat it too--attracted...knowing that they would never be the same again

He wanted obedience, anon. "You are my political headache!" Meanwhile he doesn't see how it would be politically better for her to marry Daemon.

3.

Laenor is gay. We already know that he and Rhaenyra tried but nothing came of it. There were never going to be any kids from that union.

What did you expect Rhaenyra to do exactly? Rape Laenor? Get a Lysene sex slave to impregnate her? You'd be the first to call her terrible for either of these.

Not have kids? That is even worse than not birthing her husband's children. For someone like her, the heir to the throne, to be called "barren" and unable to produce heirs herself. A thing Otto can use against her and promote Aegon the Elder as heir, which would give Otto more power over Rhaenyra.

Find another Valyrian-descent-male noble or blonde guy? And what guarantee do we have that he wouldn't try to take advantage of Rhaenyra though his blood link to any children he would sire and endanger her--plus those kids'--lives and reputations and positions?! We see how men in Westeros and beyond reach for power through even those children they do love...Rhaenyra was with Harwin bc he didn't demand anything of her nor looed for advancement through their kids. He was there just for her.

Do you want that, maybe because you already have a deep hatred for Rhaenyra that is irrational?

4.

Viserys got Rhaenyra into the mess that she was in with Laenor for his own ends and by his own cowardly need to have Alicent/someone that he thinks he chose as freely.

He is not only responsible for Alicent's misery but Rhaenyra and Laenor's as well. He also was responsible for Rhaenyra having to have kids whose parentage would always be doubted since it was an open secret that Laenor was gay.

Again, what do you think Rhaenyra was supposed to do? Demand an annulment and risk insulting the already ruffled Corlys? We already saw how Viserys was determined to have her marry Laenor to ensure a Velaryon alliance and smooth over his rejection of Laena. Do you really think that she could have done much there, when she already depends on Viserys for the said inheritance for the throne, as you have stated WHILE battling her other feelings of grief, anger, etc.?

So no, Viserys doesn't give her much choice or many allowances.

5.

In real-life medieval, Tudor, and early modern history, kings, lords, etc, there are many examples of husbands and fathers (latter less occurring) actively encouraging or allowing their wives, daughters, etc to have their own lovers or even children with said lover that the husband then names as his own.

Whether because:

the lover is an accomplished politician who takes the burden of rule off of him

wanted to stay married to said wife because of her dowry, other inheritances, or political connections

because the husband is infertile

because the husband is gay and unable to impregnate his wife

or because they already have kids and the king/lord/husband/etc do not want to jeopardize or draw suspicion of their kid's legitimacy -- better to claim all than to risk some

Sometimes it is even the court and territory's nobles and courtiers who want the queen/lady/wife to have lovers and children outside of her legal marriage just for the heirs, to avoid the madness of said king/husband, or to obtain a more competent politician/commander. The open secret if you will.

This means that Viserys sees many benefits in Rhaenyra having any sort of kids, which explains how he was willing to claim her sons as legitimate. I also have to remind you that Corlys also accepted these boys because he also wanted an heir.

Yes, Viserys loved his daughter in some capacity and wanted to protect her, but we can't ignore the political benefits that come with her having children within the cover of a legal marriage to a gay man.

In this way, Rhaenyra is further trapped in marriage, popping out sons and kids that while she comes to love, are also there to be heirs for another man. Does this sound familiar?

You should take read of Eleanor Harman's Sex with the Queen to learn more. Here's an excerpt:

With regard to royal children, the only consideration more important than their kingly blood was the monarch’s self-interest.  Many kings acknowledged children they knew had been fathered by someone else. Often, kings did not want to cast doubt on the paternity of older children they knew to be their own. In the case where the king could not father children, sometimes court factions heartily desired the queen to bear bastards in order to stabilize the throne and cement their own interests.

Fortunately, the queen’s complete and utter disillusionment with her husband usually set in after the birth of the heir.  And so it was not deemed worthwhile to lose international prestige, throw the nation into tumult, and question the paternity of all royal children, simply to deny the one cuckoo in the robin’s nest. In the early nineteenth century, the last son of King John VI and Queen Carlota Joaquina of Portugal was extremely good-looking and slender - unlike either of his parents - and happened to be the spitting image of the handsome gardener at the queen’s country retreat. Other than a few snickers behind painted fans, no one said a word.

E)

You: "Viserys expects Alicent to be a dutiful childbearing wife but let’s Rhaenyra do basically whatever she wants because he feels guilt for what he did to Aemma. And Rhaenyra is okay with that. She doesn’t care about other women suffering. She only wants to bend the rules for herself."

Already explained the little-to-no choice for Rhaenyra aspect.

Yes, Viserys does expect Alicent to do this, because, unlike Rhaenyra, Alicent is not facing 10% of usurpation or pushback that Rhaenyra--as heir--would/could.

She is Queen Consort, not soon-to-be-present Queen Regnant. Alicent is not his heir. She is his wife and the person who bears him other children, his "spares". Unfortunately, that is the way of feudal, monarchial patriarchy. Of which Alicent wants to use it for herself and uses it to judge/make Rhaenyra seem unfit...the very system and principles that oppress her, Alicent.

This does not mean Alicent had no right to pursue power for herself by principle, even though I want Rhaenyra. Show!Alicent, however, lives to give up power for conformity's sake in comparison.

And Viserys should be held accountable for sleeping with a teen girl who clearly didn't approach him with full willingness. And if not Alicent, it would have been any other girl or woman. Because girls are socially eligible to become wives as soon as they get their periods in Westeros, even if the practice is that parents and guardians usually wait until the girl is in her later teens (16-19). That's a societal problem that both he and Otto can and did take advantage of.

But again, anon, what exactly did you expect Rhaenyra to do? The girl was also 15, like Alicent!!!!

You seem to give the mantle of responsibility if Alicent's suffering to her. I said this already in another post, but Rhaenyra just lost her mother a few months earlier (something Alicent has experienced) and she has taken to her duties as heir. Alicent is the one who was more available for her than she was to Alicent. Can Rhaenyra read minds, now? Why didn't Alicent let Rhaenyra at least know that Otto was forcing her to do this? That, at least, was within Alicent's power.

What is Rhaenyra supposed to have done when Viserys and Alicent both explicitly told each other (episode 2) they'd keep their meetings secret from Rhaenyra, thus keeping Rhaenyra totally out and in the dark whilst she was mentally preoccupied?

NOTE: I want to clarify that I don't think Rhaenyra would necessarily become Alicent's savior and stop Viserys from choosing her and use chess moves against Otto, or that Alicent should have thought Rhaenyra would 100% deliver her from this situation. Rhaenyra may or may not have been at least able to bring them together to think of how they could Viserys to know of Otto's plans, but that is not the point I make when I compare Alicent and Rhaenyra during this time. Alicent seems to have lived her entire life pressured into suppressing her desires for the sake of obeying her overbearing father, and it would be terribly hard to overcome that and see through those teachings instilled in you. But just by these statements alone, Rhaenyra proves to not be her actual enemy nor the cause of her suffering.

I could flip it around: If we say they were truly friends, why not say something--if we presume that they always talked about Otto's suffocating expectations of Alicent and their supposed many years of close friendship? The show--by not letting us see how they actually related their relationship with their families to each other (the jump cuts and lack of any flashbacks)--refused to allow us to better qualify the character of their communication habits. (I already answered this in the paragraph above). How close were they really? We only get their relationship through the lens of Rhaenyra's family's succession crisis. Before the events of episode 1, did these two girls tell each other a lot of things that they wouldn't tell others, and I mean the most private things--or do they hold those back and why? Would Alicent tell Rhaenyra about her father sometimes drunkenly bemoan her mother's passing if Otto did that? Would Rhaenyra tell Alicent any of her crushes? Would she tell her what she thought about the Faith, and if so, where did she stop if ever? Either way, with what is presented on-screen, the onus of their relationship did not/does not rest fully on Rhaenyra, esp when she didn't even know and could not spare time or thought to Alicent while going through shit herself.

So it doesn't look like Alicent gave Rhaenyra much of a choice either, to even attempt to help her out or give room to process information and respond, choosing to keep it close to her chest. Maybe to not lose her friendship sooner than she liked, it being due to obedience to her father and Viserys keeping it secret, or afraid of Rhaenyra not believing that she wasn't being overly ambitious and disrespectful towards Aemma's memory, etc. Once again, the point is that Rhaenyra had less ability to anticipate all this happening, so there needed to be just one person who told her all this. And in friendships & any relationship, one has to know when the ball is in their court, and in this instance, it was Alicent and Viserys. But both chose to keep Rhaenyra out of the loop completely until the last minute bc neither wanted to deal with what they both knew would be very hurt & angry feelings from her.

Meanwhile, before Viserys announced his marriage, Rhaenyra was actually being very helpful and "obedient", performing her tasks/duties. If you think ignoring Otto and choosing a capable fighter, specifically saying that "my father needs a worthy fighter with experience" and choosing Criston is her not following the rules or thinking of Viserys, you'd be dead wrong. This also goes for her suggesting they use dragonriders to join Corlys in the Stepstones, to which, once again, Viserys refuses and makes her look dumb, all because it was an interruption in "adult", manly matters. (Yes he allows her on the council later, but first events matter and he allowed a bad image to be made that day of her. Stupid of him.)

Finally, Rhaenyra is ranked lower than Viserys, THE KING, despite being his daughter. It appears you want some grand gesture or a big power play from Rhaenyra to protect Alicent from soemthing she doesn't even know is happening. What would you want her to do? To repeat myself, demand an annulment or a cancellation after it's already been announced? Again, if she had known prior, maybe something could be done and she could persuade him otherwise, but we'll never know, will we? And risk insulting Corlys? Again?!

So really, you should be angry at Otto and Viserys more than anyone. They are the ones with the power to put Alicent into the position that she is in. That's the patriarchy talking. That's not Rhaenyra's doing.

As for Rhaenyra's anger:

mother just died

Alicent's silence/keeping such secrets from her

Viserys' public dismissals

feeling some self-hate and disappointment for not having a male's value in her society

If you are going to advocate for Alicent finding fault in Rhaenyra's ability to find holes in the patriarchal mold made for her, we should keep in mind that Rhaenyra was deliberately kept out of even knowing what would happen to her and what she'd be up against later on in the first place. Would this not sting at least? Especially after she's told Alicent, presumably, about her fears for Aemma, her disappointment in Viserys' disregard for her before Aemma died, and her fears of being discarded once a male child arrives? All those years of friendship and thinking Alicent would tell her such important information? If we can forgive Alicent for thinking Rhaenyra would literally kill her kids or endanger them bc she fears her father and believes everything from him, why can't we "forgive" or cut Rhaenyra some slack for being angry that her best friend didn't tell her anything that could determine her future?!

When you've been doubted and sidelined all your life, it would take a lot of ability to compartmentalize (certainly more than anyone in this show has) to see past the nail in the coffin before it came down, which is not necessarily a good thing bc you risk repressing too much of your own emotions and thus debilitate yourself from making more rational decisions or debilitate your own ability to process information and get to conclusions as fast as you could.

Honestly, both girls are beleaguered and have much in common in terms of suffering from patriarchal authorities. Both are forced to have children for the sake of politics, one sexually abused and denied sexual exploration alrogwthwr before she hit 18, and the other totally shut down in any participation in politics as well as trapped in a position more vulnerable to others machinations if she hadn't had kids.

Their fathers both are the ones truly trifling.

F)

You: "Alicent has been maritally raped by Viserys for years. She dutifully bore him three sons and daughter. They even all have the Targaryen look and ride dragons. She did her duty, and he still doesn’t give a shit about his kids with her and clearly favors Rhaenyra. Still, Alicent took care of Viserys for years when she could have just let him rot. She may not love him romantically but she clearly cares about him, despite what he did to her."

1.

I wrote a post about feudalism, Queen Consorts, spares, etc for Alicent and Viserys, and the claim that just because she birthed him, children, doesn't mean he customarily owes her anything, much less making her kids heirs. Because this show's world still has the same sexist circumstances, same as what I said there for the show.

Anon, it's misogynist to go "Alicent did her duty by bearing four 'obvious' Targ children" when Rhaenyra's kids also ride dragons while not looking "typically" Targaryen.

You're saying that Alicent's kids are "worth" more than Rhaenyra's because she was a good girl and birthed heirs. You also fell for the court idea of "trueness" being "obvious" in appearance--blood purity.

Finally, are Alicent and Rhaenyra only worth their wombs, now? Is that what you want from your (assumed) fav, to just be a pawn spawning out "true" heirs for her father to take advantage of? Whose fault is it that Alicent is put into her position? Viserys is obviously partially at fault for choosing her at all, but who put her there? Otto. For purely selfish reasons. Why are you so devoted to hating a girl for mourning and being busy, whilst the true perpetrator of Alicent's suffering is Otto?

Why do you think that suffering for doing your "job" of being a baby factory and enduring marital rape = having "good morals"?

2.

*Disclaimer*: I do recognize how show!Alicent was sexually abused, as she was obviously unwilling.

My point is that why does sexual abuse have to be or is a requisite for respect and a tool of exchange for power? Why is it characterized as a thing that Alicent "let" happen to her, instead of just socially forced onto her? You do this when you argue that she "did her duty" and consented to give Viserys children without it being a problem about how Otto put her there in the first place, a place where she had little to no options. You don't mention this.

Children trump wives/husbands/spouses/SOs, as you argued that Alicent's love for her kids trumps whatever she feels towards any hypothetical husband/Viserys.

Why are we asking him to emotionally abandon Rhaenyra altogether for Alicent's kids? Romantic love is a nonfactor. Romance doesn't get top priority when we're talking politics, nor is it always or should be the final authority on who gets more favor. I mean, if we're talking about the characters only, Rhaenyra is Viserys' daughter. You're revealing that you'd prefer if Viserys gave his political favor to his wife over his daughter, which is pretty crazy considering that Rhaenyra is his heir and his eldest child, the child he's known and emotionally engaged with far longer than he's known Alicent. And this is coming from a person who agrees wholeheartedly that he was a terrible dad to any/all of his kids in different ways but was worse towards the green kids with his comparative neglect.

While it's fair to say Viserys should pay more attention to his other kids, I don't think that's all you want. I think that you want him to just name Aegon heir, that he can only express true love for his other kids by giving the heir title to Aegon and removing Rhaenyra. Because you think that the throne is Aegon's birthright. And you think it is his birthright just because he has a penis and Andal male-preferred primogeniture exists. Meanwhile, if you go through Westerosi history and read carefully, you will see that while girls are not as preferred to boys, you will see examples of girls leading houses even with male relatives available. Jeyne Arryn is one, who had male cousins and uncles by no brothers after they and her father died. You may counterargue and say either Jeyne had to take power to have it and/or that in Westerosi tradition the girl can only inherit if she has no nuclear-male relatives, and you would be correct.

Problem there is that you would be defending a patriarchal setback for women, and are therefore misogynist because you do not want women to have real autonomy. Autonomy is the power of self (it's in the word). Power that comes from and is practiced from the self, exists by itself and is generated from the self. It is the ability to make decisions for one's self, by oneself, as far from others' always-biased-and-never-fully-understanding-of-you's perspectives or abilities. More substantial power is not when a woman/girl only gets power when all other male options are unavailable, is that actual autonomous power or a pure autonomous claim the same as a man's? No.

So if you, anon, are upset with the idea that a woman seeks power for herself or ways to shape her life how she wants it without a man or man-lead/filled/prioritized institution making decisions against her, then you yourself prove to be misogynist and hateful of women seeking autonomy.

3.

What about when she grows older? Do you suggest that Alicent remains powerless then? Again, what I pointed out about Viserys letting her have a lot of power for years from episode 6. You should be troubled by how it's told how the Queen consort's only true job is to be a fertile womb, not congratulating her fertility under this context. Why is passive "power" the only power you want to afford a woman?

Once again, Alicent is Queen Consort. Not a Queen Regnant as Rhaenyra would have been.

After Viserys gives her that power and she gains much more in episode 8 in his illness, she is the next in the show's hierarchy/authority, as we saw by her giving orders to the Kingsguard. At least next to the King's Hand. She is also in charge of the running of the castle in that she dismisses servants and makes sure that whoever is in charge of collecting and organizing accounts of food, supplies, etc. (usually a castellan or a steward). Servants including those who dress and take the king's piss/poop out. Those who are literally close to Viserys. We see it in episode 3, where Alicent sends the servants away and cleans Viserys herself.

She has more influence or power than she or some fans think bc she is closest to the King. Not official policy-making, law-making, war-waging power, but a lot of social court power. Power that does not come from Otto.

In Westeros, it appears the heir officially outranks the Queen Consort because we haven't seen a Consort boss around the heir on their rank alone [a parent can do do with a child, but what about if the Consort isn't the parent of that child?] but in the show, they try to reverse that in episode 6. This doesn't track at all unless the writers do what they should have done and show accumulations of moments where Alicent gains more unofficial power as Viserys deteriorates and lets her go off to the races OR/AND she more and more gets him to feel that he needs to give her such power. Queen Consorts don't sit at council with the King, once more, it's a privilege granted to them and is actually an anomaly. Therefore, it would have been that much more meaningful to show how Alicent got where she got in at least 3 episodes preceding what we get in episode 6, even though it still wouldn't b match what happens in the original story. This is an example of the writers creating a new lore point but not sticking to their own invention or being logically consistent abt it.

Yes, her main and defining "job" -- by those patriarchal more she herself is trying to enforce -- is to give Viserys children and be the model of female chastity that Andal tradition dictates to her (alms, faith to the Faith, only having sex with Viserys). Plus run/oversee the royal inner household (its resources [ex. food] & the royal offspring), and possibly arrange marriages. She is even expected to bear with her husband's bullshit because he is her husband and she is a woman. (You'd be surprised at what Queen Consorts had to put up with in real-life history.) But she is not completely helpless & she doesn't have 0 agency. She just doesn't have any imagination and is resentful of Rhaenyra instead of the real perpetrators. Mostly because her imagination or independent thinking has been stifled by her social role as a female noble.

No, she could not have let Viserys rot with no (at the very least) supervision because that would put a social mark against her and her public image as a merciful Queen--the customary standard for a Queen--and be seen as her neglecting her husband. And Alicent had no intention of inviting that sort of censure. I recognize that she grew to have some sort of care for Viserys enough to be upset at his suffering and death, but that is something that is unequally expected of her as a wife and Queen Consort. the pressure is more on her to fulfill her duties to her husband than it is on Viserys to his wife, and he does not have the same duties as her, thus less pressure. He can take a mistress all he wants if he's adamant or sexually seeking enough. This is a world that is harsher and more expectant on the wife than the husband, even placing conditions of legal treachery into the mix. What do you expect as a "reward"? You don't get power or respect by complying or submitting to already oppressive systems/individuals' oppressive actions. Do you think that if you are a "good girl", you get to be happy and safe and compensated? That's not how hierarchies work. As a commentator below states. No, you get crumbs that you are taught to "enjoy" or have no other choice but to swallow.

So, it is not black-and-white "pure" & "free" devotion that she just wanted to take care of Viserys. She's also motivated by what she thinks she has to do to be a good woman/Queen/wife, which is all patriarchal bullshit. She thinks she has to be so accommodating towards Viserys because she knows that is her feudalist role as a Queen/woman/wife and that that will somehow give her peace. She thinks being perfectly chaste and caring will bring her some sort of satisfaction with how her life turned out, but suppresses her anger and probable feelings of shame that she seems to ignore.

Shame for having been spent to Viserys at all while having been above reproach before then (there should have been court gossip, but that's another thing).

Shame or guilt for not letting Rhaenyra know.

Shame for replacing her friend's mother when she listened to her speak about her family drama AND lost her mother herself.

All works as a paradox for living as a Queen Consort.

4.

It is by Andal tradition (not Valyrian) that the husband has nearly full power over his wife's life and that a wife obeys her husband. Rhaenyra is Viserys' eldest and Alicent gave birth to Viserys' "spares", which by the Widow's Law, we very well can make a strong case for how these kids do not go before Rhaenyra in the line of succession:

To rectify these ills, in 52 AC King Jaehaerys implemented the Widow’s Law, reaffirming the right of the eldest son (or daughter, where there was no son) to inherit, but requiring said heirs to maintain surviving widows in the same conditions they enjoyed before their husband’s death. A lord’s widow, be she a second, third or fourth wife, could no longer be driven from his castle, nor deprived of her servants, clothing, and income. The same law also forbade a man to disinherit the children by a first wife in order to bestow their lands, seat or property on a later wife or her children.

Rhaenyra can use this law to argue -- not that she should be put on trial, she's made heir by her father and since it was his will/word that's the definite LAW -- and strengthen her monarch-given right to ascend.

Your wife/Queen Consort can be good to you all she is. If you, the king, say that the heir is a specific person, they are that person regardless of who his wife is or how dutiful she is. State matters can and have been influenced through marriages and interpersonal care, but it can just as well not be because it all depends on the king's/monarch's disposition and the political context. That was the risk Otto took and used his own daughter to try and manipulate. Not Rhaenyra's fault at all.

That Alicent failed to see that until the 9th episode (the show itself, for all its flaws, is telling you this, anon!) shows how intelligent/narrow-minded/unrighteous Alicent has been from the time she set herself against Rhaenyra in their conversation of episode 4. And even before, when she never told Rhaenyra Otto's instructions to her and for years pushed that burden of responsibility on Rhaenyra..

When she's yelling about "having one child like that", she's referring to children born out of wedlock to a girl who doesn't act within her patriarchal sexual restrictions. Said restrictions are that women/girls should expect to only sleep with the man/boy their authority figure designates for them while their husband sleeps around and fathers bastards indiscriminately.

So, yeah, Alicent is a misogynist towards Rhaenyra.

G)

You: "She doesn’t even want Rhaenyra dead, she still cares for her despite everything. Alicent isn’t perfect but neither is Rhaenyra."

1.

Anon, you really don't get human psychology. A parent's love and care for their kids is such a visceral thing.

How is it in any way feasible that 8th episode-Alicent's behavior is realistic or consistent with how real people behave toward what they think is a threat to their kids? It doesn't make any sense how Alicent changed her tune after Rhaenyra apologized in episode 8. By:

calling Rhaenyra's sons bastards, endangering them all (whether by social shaming/ostracism [which can and has caused mental deterioration in human history], exile, or actual execution)

humiliating Rhaenyra by demanding that Joffrey be brought to her right after Rhaenyra birthed him to show the entire court that she doubts his parentage

by dismissing all her concerns and demands to deal with the Stepstones problem in a much more substantive way than just leaving it up to Daemon to stave off the Triarchy

There was no coming back from the years Alicent spent antagonizing Rhaenyra. She herself broke that connection based on false notions. Alicent has shown malice before episode 8. HERE is my past post about how Show! or Book!Alicent was never going to be a woman I rooted for when a possible Queen Regnant was available.

2.

Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and has always been so. Therefore, what Alicent was doing was usurping her.

...Usurping means killing people 80% of the time (an arbitrary number, but you should get it). And of the two sides, the greens were the group who'd be more willing to carry out unprovoked assassinations (Aegon after Jaehaerys' death [book, who knows if the show will include this], Aemond killing Lucerys, all the ploys Otto made behind Viserys' back, Aemond firing on the riverlands and killing all the Strongs, etc.)

To quote a lot of green stans and flip it: looking back in real history, people killed for thrones and power more often than they did in imprisonment, and even with imprisonment, it's usually not long before the person mysteriously dies in prison. Know your history and upgrade your understanding of human behavior and motivation. If any person who seeks to usurp someone else truly-duly thinks they can do so without killing them or having one of their supporters kill them (unprovoked), they are delusional. Or at least if you use this argument for why Alicent should act as she did, why isn't this the same for Rhaenyra/the blacks' end?!!

As I've said, Rhaenyra had several supporters who even fought for her after she died.

Watching episode 9, how could you think that Alicent actually had any influence and power over Otto and the councilors, who plotted behind her back to kill Rhaenyra? That she had to give her feet up for Larys to masturbate to in order to just get verbal info? (This is all after Viserys dies, so do not try to use me saying she had power under Viserys above when she loses much power after he dies, which is my point and which HotD exaggerates).

She couldn't use her brain to figure out Otto was behind her suffering all along? Until episode 9?

Show!Alicent never claimed power, so she was in a worse state than book!Alicent was. Your fave is an eroticized doormat for the male gaze (xenonwitch's reblog), not a powerful, self-driven woman.

3.

Their friendship never made sense anyway. From a Doylist standpoint. And show!Alicent herself is a terribly constructed character; Rhaenicent doesn't make sense (article in Polygon).

4.

Sure, Viserys supposedly treats Rhaenyra well and lets her get away with a lot of behavior that these other fathers of ASoIaF would never, BUT he also doesn't:

[book & show] give her enough political training, or equal to that of an male heir--though he does makes her his cupbearer and allows her to sit in council to hear said council (passive learning), he does seem to properly engage, quiz, test, etc. her in decision-making for economic, political, etc. stuff; he does not seem to ever ask for her opinions of certain laws or policies, existing or currently considered; he does not let her make many decisions without lecturing her or ignoring her in front of others (episode 3 with her suggestion about taking dragons to meet Daemon); NOR does he get some sort of tutor through some sort of training, military-wise--likely strategy, not actual combat training (a tutor even from Essos, there would have been many businesspeople and wealthy business families available and eager to work for the royal Targaryens)--that Dany in the main series had to herself must learn and continue from her earlier exilic education on the go. Rhaenyra herself must learn most of what she knows by herself when she heads to Dragonstone! If you can give your heir/child the material to help advance their understanding of certain things even in ordinary education, why are you holding back for this specific instance when the stakes are higher?!

[book & show] he does not firmly, properly, and publicly denounce Alicent's harassment and accusations

[book & show] make one or more of her sons his cupbearer/transition him into being a part of the council as well

[book & show] he does not try to prevent other's talk of Rhaenyra's sons until much later when it is way too late

[show] he doesn't question Alicent's asking for baby Joff at all or pursue why Rhaenyra was even there and bleeding apart from how she shouldn't be there--he quickly moves on, too

[show] In the book, he does send her on a "meet-and-greet" tour or "progress" of the realm to: put a face to the woman in her oath-bound lords/houses' minds -> amplify her "Realm's Delight" image, and reinforce her attractiveness/desirability/sexual purity -> make her more real and appealing. Show!Viserys sends her out on a point-blank marriage-tour where she hears marriage suits after her. The book version explicitly has Viserys/his council at least make Rhaenyra meet her subjects and hear their desires, concerns, and what they think of her. There is less of the kind of formality and distance than what the sho made in changing it into a straight-up marriage tour, so the ladies and lords seeing Rhaenyra for the first time only get to see her under the more stressful (for them as well as for her) and less emotionally engaging context of a mere business exchange. Also, Laenor was always both show!andbook!Viserys' final choice for Rhaenyra. Book!Viserys is just a little bit smarter and more careful than show!Viserys.

Viserys is better than most Westerosi men in how he treats Rhaenyra--book and show--, at least those fathers we get to hear about or get to know. Better, but not still not enough to meet the demands of his daughter's actual needs.

(8/21/23):

THIS is a great post by mononijikayu about medieval queens, female rulers, the history of how women in leadership positions were made and seen as threats to the very structure of social “order”, and contextualizing Rhaenyra thru Empress Matilda. I didn’t even know about Matilda’s husband being comparable to Rhaneyra’s Daemon! PLZ READ!!!!

Excerpt:

just as much, along with these fictitious portrayals, more lies are depicted. these women are considered vixens that cause havoc to men by shifting them into desires and danger. through the written word, we see how women are cast in roles of villains in men’s lives. it is because by their conclusive thoughts, women are the only creatures that are able to turn ‘good honorable men’ into despicable creatures who do shameful, deplorable acts for the sake of women’s pleasures. […]  it is within this narrative that ancient chroniclers declare that women were in fact the doom of men. if they were not able to control the dangers posed by the wiles of women, then the foundations of the mighty society they had built would be up in flames.  [...] as i mentioned, these factors of community are written down and preserved. and with that, the example of the ancients were the foundations by which medieval society built itself. the same concepts continued to cause the same issue within society and that was the exclusion of women from participating in the bigger picture of community and state, much so with governing states in their own right—without judgment or disapproval. 

#asoiaf asks to me #alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra vs alicent #hotd male gaze #hotd writing #hotd characterization #alicent's characterization #rhaenyra's characterization #medieval history #court politics #westerosi court culture #westerosi court #westerosi society #perfect victim post #women in westeros #westerosi women #hotd #asoiaf

[sayruq]

99 percent of the shit Arya stans do/say is in reaction to Sansa stans and it's not even funny anymore lmao, like it's actually concerning. My favorite in recent memory is how Arya stans saw Sansa fans becoming fans of/defending Alicent and now all of a sudden Arya fans just loveeeee Rhaenyra and Team Black (after not giving a single fuck about her or any of the Fire and Blood background targs) and are now writing and sharing metas about how evil and misogynist the Sansa/Alicent stans and how Girl Boss Slay Rhaenyra is lmaoo. Truly living rent free in their minds.

This coupled with the Dany stans who used to talk shit about Rhaenyra back in 2018 and 2019 and would write posts saying Dany was a good queen whereas Rhaenyra was lazy and incompetent but now Dany stans have latched onto Rhaenyra and have included her alongside Dany at the head of the Wronged Dragon Queen Slay Girl Boss Martyr Table is fucking hilarious. LMAO.

My favorite in recent memory is how Arya stans saw Sansa fans becoming fans of/defending Alicent and now all of a sudden Arya fans just loveeeee Rhaenyra and Team Black

They did this with Dany. It's been a long time but I definitely remember when the anti Dany tag had more Arya fans than Sansa fans. They only started to switch when S7 aired and it became obvious to everyone (even those in denial) that Sansa wasn't going to be riding on the Jonerys/Targ restoration train.

This coupled with the Dany stans who used to talk shit about Rhaenyra back in 2018 and 2019 and would write posts saying Dany was a good queen whereas Rhaenyra was lazy and incompetent but now Dany stans have latched onto Rhaenyra and have included her alongside Dany at the head of the Wronged Dragon Queen Slay Girl Boss Martyr Table is fucking hilarious. LMAO

I def remember this too. This need for Dany stans to pretend they like every single Targaryen is new (and strange). Rhaenyra was very unpopular before the show aired and I personally don't think she's popular now so much as the audience recognising that she's a protagonist (alongside Alicent). The fanbase is more interested in writing Daemon/Aemond/Aegon reader fics than anything to do with Rhaenyra. I actually only see her in posts that are more to do with Team Black as a concept than Rhaenyra herself.

Anyway HOTD content is nothing more than GoT fans fighting over the same shit they've been arguing over since 2017. I can't say I blame them, it isn't like the show's writing can inspire any real passion.

#Anonymous #Sansa Stark #alicent hightower #anti hotd #anti arya stans #song of ice and fire #game of thrones

[lyricswrittenbythesecretdreamer]

A Winter’s Tale

After a trying conversation with his partner guard about a beautiful new Lady’s maid, Koner meets the girl and immediately bonds with her over their shared love of dragons. 

CW - Female reader, no specific appearance given other than her “beautiful eyes” and the fact that she wears her hair in ‘braids’. Some misogynistic language directed at reader (the words ‘slut’ and ‘whore’) but not by Koner.

(gif originally posted by @historygeekfics​ )

*** 

Even through his armour, and his North-forged skin, Koner still felt the winter chill in his bones. 

It was bleak mid-winter, and he stood guard at the South Gate, waiting for Henk to come and join him from his break. There was a jovial spirit amongst the people of the North - Lady Stark stood at the helm of Winterfell as the Queen in the North while her brother - no, her cousin - lived in Kings Landing as the King Consort of the Dragon Queen. 

Koner had never seen a dragon until the battle at the Wall, where he had watched the Stormborn Targaryan take out thousands of wights with one roar from one of her children. He had fallen quite in love with the sight of them, and was sorry to see them leave the North, their dragon-fire lighting up the torches in the turrets as they soared out of Winterfell, carrying the Queen and her new husband on their backs. 

His daydreams about the trio of fire-breathing beasts were shaken out of him by the arrival of Henk, who seemed more pleased with himself than usual. 

“Guess who I just met.” A challenge, then. It wasn’t unusual for Henk to come back from his break boasting about some higher-up he’d met, once he’d even told Koner he’d met the Lady’s Hound, making a joke about the man not so much clinging to the Queen in the North’s skirts so much as being up them, before another guard gloved him on the back of the head, telling him to not speak of Lady Sansa as such. 

And so, Koner did not answer. He didn’t want to give Henk the pleasure. 

“Well, if you won’t ask then I’ll tell you.” Here we go. What would it be this time? Maybe he’d actually boast about seeing one of the Starks in person, but then he supposed that Henk would have the foresight to know that Koner would call him out on that sort of lie. “I just met Lady Stark’s newest ladies maid as she was comin’ back from the kitchens.” 

Koner raised an eyebrow at this, which Henk took as his allowance to continue with the story. 

“She was one of the most prettiest girls I’ve seen in my whole life! The most beautiful eyes I've ever seen. And that's not even the best part!” He wiggled his eyebrows at Koner suggestively. “Don’t you want to hear the best part, eh?” Deep down, Koner knew that he would never shut up until he had finished his story, but he still couldn’t bring himself to answer. The biting cold, alongside Henk’s bragging was starting to give him a headache. “Well, the best part is that she’s one of the those the Dragon Queen left for Lady Stark, which means that she’s got to be one of those Yunkai whores she thought she’d freed!”

“But I thought the Targaryan Queen did free the city of Yunkai?” Koner said dumbly, speaking for the first time since Henk had left to go on his break, which caused a bellowing laugh to come from the other man. 

“Ah, my naive young partner,” Henk replied in a condescending manner, “You can never truly free a whore. Especially not once from Yunkai - you do know they’re trained to fuck from the moment they learn to walk?”

Remind me never to leave any bairns with Henk, thought Koner, a disgusted chill colder than the north wind making its way down his spine. 

“What, you’re saying that whores like whoring?” He snickered, but Henk just laughed again. 

“You ever been to a whorehouse, son?” He asked, and Koner shook his head. 

“My mother would-” He started, but Henk almost immediately interrupted him. 

“Oh, fuck that mother of yours, son. She’s not your wife, she should let you go to a whorehouse. One of the sluts there might be able to get that massive stick from up your arse!” 

“My mother just doesn’t want me to be riddled with the clap, is all.” Muttered Koner.

At his comment, Henk began to chastise him about his views on brothels, a scolding that Koner very quickly zoned out of. He thought of the dragons, and the large fireplace in the servants hall that he liked to sit and read beside. Although he couldn’t read very well, the books he liked had nice pictures of dragons he liked to look at. With the huge fire roaring beside him, he almost felt like he was next to one of the huge beasts in reality. 

“...so that’s why I can bet you if you gave that woman enough money, she’d spread her legs faster than Jon Snow left Winterfell when he got a taste of dragon-cunt.” 

“What?” Koner fell back into the conversation at the mention of dragons. “I mean, you shouldn’t talk about the Queen that way, or the King Consort.” Feeling like he risked sounding too simpering, he added: “You never know who might be listening.” 

“Ah, true. But what I said about the Yunkai whore remains true.” He grinned maliciously at Koner, who shrugged in on himself, uncomfortable. 

“Maybe, maybe not. Who knows if she was even a whore? Maybe she was-”

“She came from Yunkai, she’s definitely a whore.” 

There was no arguing with Henk when it came to topics like this. Once, he’d sworn that he’d seen a noblewoman bathing in the hot springs and had taken her maidenhood then and there, which was something absolutely no one believed. The only sex Henk had was with whores, whose virgin innocence was long-gone. 

“Whatever you say, Henk.” And so, the two stood in silence until two other soldiers came to take their place at the Southern Gate, and they could return to the warmth of the servants hall. 

***

Like he had dreamed of earlier, Koner found himself eating his broth and bread, and reading his book as close to the fire as he possibly could, to get maximum dragon ambience. The book had been given to him by one of the Queen’s soldiers, who he had grown close to while they had been stationed at Winterfell and who shared his adoration for the creatures, even going as far as teaching him how to read some of the letters so he could make sense of some of the descriptions, but he still got a headache in between mixing up his Ds and Bs. 

None of the other servants or guards had ever taken an interest, only to laugh at the thought of some low-born bastard trying to read about dragons. Not until that night. 

“Is that a dragon on the page of your book?” He looked up to see a vision in a simple green wool dress, with braids that fell down past her shoulders and to her waist, where a bronze belt with a strange insignia held up a leather pouch. 

“Uh - yeah.” 

“May I see?” She asked, but Koner could only nod, cursing himself for being so tongue-tied in the face of such a beauty. He held up the book to her, as one might hold up a sword to a much-deserving knight. She took the book from him, and as she did her soft hands brushed against his calloused ones, causing a tingle in his fingers that travelled all the way down to his cock. If this was how he reacted to barely touching a woman, he should probably take Henk’s advice lest he pop a boner whilst getting knighted by Lady Stark. 

(That was one of the quiet dreams he had, one that he had never told another soul about lest he be made a mockery of.)

“This is a book from the Queen’s library in Mereen - how did you get it?” It wasn’t an accusation - she didn’t even ask him in an accusatory tone, but the way she looked into his eyes made him feel as if he needed to apologise to her, as if she was the person he had stolen it from. 

“Uh, one of the Dragon Queen’s soldiers gave it to me.” She raised a well-plucked eyebrow at him, and he suddenly had the feeling he was talking to someone much above his station. “He didn’t tell me he’d stolen it, I had no idea-” He began to apologise, but found himself interrupted by the woman’s laughter. 

“I didn’t think it was stolen, Sir. I just didn’t expect a Stark soldier to have such an interest in a beast from so far beyond his lands.” At her words, he began to protest, but she laughed again, silencing him. “But if you are, perhaps you would like to hear my stories about the dragons I saw on a daily basis back when I lived alongside Queen Danerys?” 

Koner’s mouth dropped open, and he shut it quickly, hearing in his head his mother’s warnings of him looking like a dead salmon when he did so. 

“Ah, I see your incredibly subtle partner has made my presence known to you before I got the chance.” She got a sad look in her beautiful eyes, which he immediately felt the need to take away. 

“Uh - sorry - my partner?” Was this the lass Henk had been blabbering on about? Well, he was certainly correct when he had spoken about her eyes. Koner had never had the chance to bathe in the hot springs - his mother liked to keep his bath water cold as the snow surrounding their cabin, so he could grow up to be a strong, North-hardened soldier for the Starks. He liked to imagine that stepping into a hot spring would be akin to gazing into this woman’s eyes for longer than ten seconds at a time. He was stuck, and couldn’t form words for the fear of having to leave her gaze to think of them. 

“Yes, your partner. That soldier that guards the South Gate with you. He met me on the way back from the laundry as I was carrying Lady Sansa’s bedlinens.” Her face was somewhat hopeful, perhaps hopeful that Henk had not told him what he had, but resigned in a way that she knew that he had done so. 

“What, Henk?” At his name, her face twitched into more of a frown than it had before. Fuck. 

“Yes, that one. He has a rather large beard, I noticed.” She sounded self-conscious now, rather than the spirited person he had met to begin with. Henk needs a fucking battering for this. 

“Yes, I’ve told him he could grow a nest of birds in that fucking thing.” He offers a smile, and she reciprocates it, if not slightly weaker. But she was smiling, at least. “I can’t actually remember what he said to me after that - I don’t tend to listen to much that cunt talks about - it’s usually bullshit.” 

She tilted her head at his words, causing her braids to shift and reveal a sliver of her neck, the sight of it sending thoughts of what his mouth might do to it running through his head, down his spine and to his cock, which twitched again. Fuck, he really needed to visit a whorehouse if this was what happened when he talked to pretty girls. 

“You don’t get bored?” 

“Not when I have dragons to think of.” He smiled in reassurance at her, and a weight seemed to lift from her shoulders. She sat down in the seat opposite him, and handed him back his book. 

“Hmmm, what story could I tell you?” She pondered, and he sat forward on his haunches to listen. 

“Tell me about the first time you saw them!” He begged, and so she began. 

“Well, I had just been freed. When the Stormborn arrived, I was locked away so my master wouldn’t have to give me up - he thought he, a well-known, powerful slave owner would get away with hiding slaves.” 

She stopped, to check if he was still listening, but Koner only nodded for her to carry on. 

“He did not - the Dragon Queen saved me and the others from his clutches and that’s when I first saw them - they were walking behind her, almost like hounds do their master. Except instead of having fur, they had scales and huge wings and fangs. 

“I was terrified, of course, but my interest betrayed my fear, and I asked if I could touch them. My interest humoured her, and she took me to Mereen with her, and then to King’s Landing, and then she brought me here, to Winterfell. 

“She saw how much I enjoyed the snow - where I grew up it’s so hot and there is sand as far as the eye can see. I don’t like sand. It’s coarse, and rough, and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here, the snow is soft and smooth and cold.”

At this, Koner laughed. 

“You won’t be saying that when you get frostbite for the first time.” 

She shrugged, her lips forming a beautiful pout that Koner desperately wanted to kiss from her face. 

“Perhaps. But until then, Winterfell is the most beautiful place I have ever been. Even without dragons. So she let me stay, under the guise of gifting the Queen in the North another Lady’s Maid.” She smiled at him again, a wide smile that nearly knocked him into the fire with how much it made his chest hurt to look at. 

“She seems like a very kind lady.” 

“She is, Sir.” 

“Did you ever get to touch the dragon, then?” He asked, excited again, but she simply laughed at him, and Koner looked up at her with his brown eyes in wonder. 

“That is a story for another time, good soldier. I have work to do - I must tend to Lady Stark.” She stood up to go, but before she could, he shot up and grabbed her elbow. 

“What is your name, my lady? So I know the name of the woman who told me such a fearsome tale.” 

She told him, and he had to repeat it. He had to feel the taste of her name on his tongue, as if it was an expensive sweet he’d been given that he was afraid would be knocked from his mouth cruelly. 

“And yours, Sir?” 

“Koner, Ma’am. And I am no Ser, just a poor soldier who loves dragons.” He grinned at her, and she gave him another wide smile back, knocking him in the chest again. 

“Until we meet again, Koner, the poor soldier.” 

***

On his next watch with Henk, he found himself being interrogated by the man who had somehow found out about his conversation with the fair maiden. 

“So, did she invite you back to her chambers for a good fucking? Is she truly a Yunkai whore like they say?” 

Koner spat on the ground. 

“No, she’s a nice girl who told me about the dragons she used to travel with.” He fixed Henk with a glare, which had the older man shrink back. “Don’t go besmirching the poor lass’ name again. She’s not a whore, she’s a good woman.” He would not be telling Henk that his cock felt differently. 

Henk only laughed at this, only with less surety than before. 

“If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought you were in love with her, Koner.” 

Perhaps he was, but that didn’t matter. Men like Koner never ended up married to women like her. No - she’d be married off to some steward and bear beautiful children, and Koner would have to be happy with his left hand, and the stories of the dragons that she left behind with him.

#koner x reader #koner game of thrones #koner got #joseph quinn #eddie munson #eddie munson fanfiction #eddie munson x reader #eddie munson stranger things #eddie munson fic #eddie munson x female reader #eddie munson x y/n #almost smut #eddie munson smut

[fromtheseventhhell]

The way Stansas describe Dany and Arya is so funny, "they're bad-ass girlbosses who fight their way out of situations cause they have a sword and dragons...why do people like them?" and they're being 100% serious 😭

#anti sansa stans #they're so goofy #'why do people like badass actions girls connected to magical plots in a fantasy series?? they have to be misogynistic' like sdksdksdksd #even their fanon versions sound more interesting than the boring bland everyman stereotype they project onto their fave #they have to rewrite them cause they know their canon is too interesting + important 🤭

[queenaryastark]

Jon and Sansa as Bullies

In AGOT, GRRM writes two POV characters as bullies, Jon Snow and Sansa Stark. But he doesn't paint them with the same brush, nor should readers regard them as the same, despite nonsensical complaints like this:

Trying to compare Jon as a bully to Sansa as a bully is an excellent idea. I mean, it's bad if you want Sansa to be a one-dimensional, purely good self-insert rather than the flawed antagonist she is written to be. But it's good if you want to compare how GRRM writes two of his characters who have a similar flaw and to examine the intent of the author. So let's go.

Jon Snow bullies the other recruits during training at the Wall by being more violently aggressive than necessary. This is a fact. He also feels very good about it. Then, the author takes the time to show Jon facing consequences by having the other recruits, who are scared of him, gang up on their bully as a group. He's saved by Donal Noye who rightly calls Jon out on his bullying. Jon realizes that what he's doing is wrong and corrects his behavior. He even begins teaching the other recruits how to fight.

In this way, GRRM is giving one of his primary protagonists character growth. He literally took the page space to show that despite Jon's outcast status, he has privilege that he uses against others. Then, he had him grow as a person and change in a positive way.

With Sansa, GRRM wrote an antagonist specifically intended to bully Arya for her character growth and to complicate her characterization. We see her bullying Arya with name calling, telling her she's unwanted, and that her life is worth less than an animal's. This results in Arya having a poor self-image, and, in conjunction with bullying she endures from other antagonists like Mordane, Arya's schooling suffers as well. Her self-esteem and schooling begin to improve with positive reinforcement from Syrio and support from other positive figures in her life like Jon and Ned. Her negative relationship with her bully worsens without a positive result for the bully.

In this way, Sansa does not grow in the way Jon does. Why? Because Sansa isn't a protagonist whose growth is important to the narrative. If it was, she would have received her own Donal Noye in the form of a respected female figure in KL who would educate her on what a bully she was. Then Sansa would have had a mini-arc like Jon's where she grew as a character. But the author chose not to give that to her. Instead, her whole character in AGOT is about advancing Arya's growth - since like Jon, Arya's a primary protagonist - and pushing forward Ned's difficulties in KL. She is also used to show how misogynistic women can uphold patriarchal ideals to advance themselves and push others, like Arya, down.

Simply put, GRRM didn't take the time to let Sansa grow beyond being a bully the way he purposefully developed Jon in a positive direction. So, yes, Sansa is still regarded as a bully while Jon is not. This isn't misogyny from readers in treating them differently. This is the author giving them different treatment in the narrative based on their level of importance.

#jon snow #arya stark #asoiaf

[leulah]

Gender Roles in the ASOIAF Fandom

There is a lot of discourse going around about female roles and femininity in ASOIAF and how certain characters are less than for fitting into traditional ideas about gender roles in the series. And while there are so many things fucked about this discussion of "who is the better victim of misogyny", I also think a lot of people are missing the point entirely.

I see a lot of accounts saying that it is backwards or "tradwife" to defend certain female characters because they quote "uphold the patriarchy", and defending them is regressive because it is what is viewed as the expectation and standard in the real world for real women- which is true it is the expectation. But it is a very black and white view on a very complex problem to just write off all "soft female" characters as misogynistic because they fit into this real world standard. This discussion runs a lot deeper than "feminine good/masculine bad", because at the end of the day female roles are still viewed as being lower than male roles in society. In the eyes of the patriarchy being masculine is always better because it's about power and control, and in order to have this power women and femininity have to be viewed as beneath them. You can see this when men get emasculated because their partner makes more money than them, or they make fun of girly things- these gender roles are less about "promoting femininity" than it is about promoting a power dynamic.

That is why are characters who are more masculine and don't fall into these expectations of gender roles like Dany or Arya, are generally viewed better in the larger fandom space than those that do. It is because being masculine is always viewed as being better than being feminine, and in a fictional world where these women in power pose no actual threat to real men's masculinity they are viewed as being stronger and better people. Being masculine makes these women more worthy of respect in the eyes of the fandom. This is also similar to how when discussing history people often say: "Look women were also warriors! They're important too," as if a woman's worth only comes from her proximity to masculinity, and the women who were just mothers and wives and weavers are unworthy of our admiration and respect. Even though it is true that real society promotes and expects women to fit into a traditional female role, being masculine is still viewed as superior to being feminine.

By contrast, female characters in ASOIAF like Catelyn and Sansa who do not fall into this warrior women archetype are often berated and hated by the fandom. On one side, because they are viewed as weak and by being traditionally feminine they are seen as "upholding the patriarchy" in Westeros- disregarding the fact they are victims of it as well. But on the other hand, a lot of the complaints about Cat and Sansa come from men who feel as though they threaten men's power in the series. A common complaint about Catelyn is that she undermined and questioned Robb's power- because how dare she have a say in what happens to her family. Sansa the eleven year old is often criticized for "betraying Ned" by going to Cersei and writing the letter, with people often saying its her fault for the war and not the various adults and men in power. If a male character like Jon or Ned questions or goes against those in power it is seen as necessary and strategic, but when a female character takes any action or autonomy in their own narrative, it is viewed as a threat.

And of course there is more nuance to this, because not everyone does like the characters who break out of gender expectations, and these women in power are still viewed as a threat when their story intertwines with men. Daenerys gets respect insofar as she is not a threat to other main male characters, but the second she stands in the way of Jon's supposed claim or being Azor Ahai, she is discarded by the fandom and must be sacrificed as "the Nissa Nissa for Jon's heroic storyline". These women in masculine roles are celebrated in the fandom space, but when they too begin to question male authority their support crumbles under the same misogyny the feminine characters face.

There are many reasons why someone would prefer the female characters that fight and break out of gender roles over ones that are more traditional, but if your reaction to femininity is one of weakness and worthlessness I think you need to do some self reflection on your relationship to women. Yes, the "let women be soft" argument is reductive due to irl expectations, but that doesn't make feminine women deserving of your hate and harassment. Fiction is not reality, and people don't have the same expectations and reactions between them, and trying to boil down a complex discussion on power dynamics and gender roles in the series to "feminine bad" is reductive and not at all the message. Both sets of women deserve respect and both suffer under the rules and traditions in their world, but you have to remember there is no "better victim". There is no winner under the patriarchy.

#and again IT IS MORE COMPLEX THAN THIS before people start coming into my asks saying im misogynistic #for saying people only like dany and arya because of masculinity and they don't get hate- i'm not saying that #but i do think its important to the discussion on gender roles in the fandom and why some characters are berated for being “weak” #also you could extend this to hotd but i do NOT want to get into a discussion about that #asoiaf #asoiaf fandom #asoiaf meta #fandom discourse #valyrianscrolls #mine #i know we have this same discussion every week but here is my two cents

[olderthannetfic]

I'm having difficulty with trying to place some of my fandom's feelings about misogyny in our source materials, GoT and HotD. On the one hand, I can understand how as women, we may not want to be confronted with the pitfalls and dangers of misogyny in the real world in a fantasy story with dragons, but on the other hand, it isn't like GRRM discusses misogyny in the books without tact. Margaery, Sansa, Cersei, and now Rhaenyra all have complicated relationships with gender and power in their own storylines that make sense in the context of the world. And GRRM doesn't shy away from showing the dangers of masculinity, either. Like, how mens' prides can doom themselves, their families, and entire nations, how most of the ones who die in battle are the poor foot soldiers who are usually men. Even how some men, in their pursuit of perfection/reinvention through their sons, harm the rest of their family, like Tywin. Or how there are men who use others that he thinks are weaker than him (sex workers, women, children, the poor) to feel bigger and more important, but their harm doesn't actually improve themselves, so they repeat cycles of hurt.

I don't think people are inaccurate in saying there is misogyny in the books, but this misogyny is purposeful and not accidental. Idk, to me pointing out how Cersei thinks misogynistic things about other women is like pointing out there's racism or homophobia in a Baldwin novel... yes, that's the point. Do you or others think that there's a disconnect between audiences of fantasy and mainstream? Like, with some people just wanting fun escapism but being reminded of the real worldvs. people who just want the story as-is. Because sometimes it sounds like when Anglophone westerners try to make "feminist" retellings of myths like The Iliad about Helen or Briseis, when all it ends up doing is proving that maybe Homer was more conscious of the realities and perspectives of women than they gave him credit for, or that they missed the point of Helen's story to begin with. Sometimes I think modern reviewers/critics get so caught up in pointing out every societal ill without context of the work, that we present discussions of these ills as failing of the work. Any thoughts?

--

A lot of "feminist" retellings are junk that misses the point of the original, sure, but the complaints I've heard about GoT are mostly about "But it's realistic though!" bullshit, particularly about the show rather than the books.

It's realistic for women to face sexual violence. It's also realistic for men to face it. It's also realistic for women to have nice lives.

This is fiction: everything someone chooses to put on page or on screen was just that: a choice.

I haven't consumed any of these canons. In the books' case, I hadn't heard of them back when I read fantasy doorstops by men. I no longer do that unless it's a queer book.

The show broke one of my cardinal rules: female full frontal without equal or greater male full frontal presented equally sexily and GOD DAMN shaved pubes that 1. don't make sense and 2. aren't equally common on men.

I'll watch a rule of horny show, but not if it's aimed at someone else's libido.

--

In the horny premium cable with sex and gore realm, I did watch the first season of Spartacus. That show was campy trash in many ways, and far less critically acclaimed, but it managed to show vastly more male full frontal and a really sensitive depiction of sexual coercion of a big, manly dude and what it did to him emotionally.

Lucy Lawless' horrible slave owner character was fantastically interesting and also shaped by misogyny and the expectations that she was only valuable for bearing an heir. All kinds of awful things happened in that season, but the only time I got the feeling we were there to gawk at tragedy porn or naked bodies, it was men on the receiving end.

--

People see GoT as neutral because they're so used to only seeing media that is by and for straight guys who are used to fapping to women's crying faces and calling it realism.

I can't speak to the books. From what people have said, they sound marginally more thoughtful than the show but still firmly in the Old Guy SFF tradition where "historical realism" upon which one builds one's dragon fantasy realm means abused women, not third gender priests or Muslim travel writers or any of the other underused historical shit you could pull from.

I'll give GRRM that many of the other cliched books are stealing from him and not vice versa, but this trend is more than old enough to predate A Song of Ice and Fire, which wasn't published till 1991.

So no, I don't think it's about escapism. I think it's about being bored of the same old, same old.

[ariamariastark1]

Feminism in ASOIAF: Catelyn's Paradox

Before anything, here's a small disclaimer: This post is my own opinion and personal analysis, so if you don't agree please be polite.

Also, this post was inspired by @allovesthings post on "Cat's views on woman and ladies" as well as @iwouldservehim reblog/addition of my 'Sansa is more than feminine' post.

One of the feminist discussions that are being held in the books is a very real paradox that is mainly explored through Catelyn's character but also other female characters (like Cersei): the irony of women that contradict the misogynistic ideals of Westeros being the same that uphold it the most.

I think that it is already common knowledge that Cast and Arya have very similar personalities and a lot of people like to use this fact to invalidate or claim that Catelyn isn't sexist however this contradiction between Cat's nature and her ideology is a characteristic of more traditional/conservative woman. Catelyn is a character that has a very loud personality, she likes to make herself known and wants to be taken as seriously as any other man but when it comes down to other women she sometimes perpetuates the very same discrimination and judges them or she defends them and is their champion.

Catelyn's paradox however isn't as much with the other Northern ladies, but with her daughters and how she halfway created a cycle of misogyny in them. Cat is a southern woman and she feels wrong and without identity being in the North and is traumatised, she can't separate herself from her children so if she feels like an outsider in the North then both her daughters need to be southern with southern beliefs and behaviour and ideology. So when Arya shows herself being a more northerner, being unapologetic herself, something that Catelyn couldn't beat Riverrun, Cat convinced herself that Arya was wrong (even though she was like Arya growing up) and started being even more conservative and sexist to Arya, passing it down to Sansa as well as other prejudices creating this cycle

#catelyn tully #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #arya stark #feminism in asoiaf #Catelyn Tully Paradox

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

This fanon notion that Ned was a bad father to Sansa is absolutely ridiculous and not remotely based in canon. Like Sansa stans are just mad that Ned didn’t mistreat Arya because Sansa stans hate Arya and want everyone to treat Arya like shit

Exactly @daenerysthevampireslayerr

They can't stand that Arya is one of the Key Five and is important to the story. They also can't stand that she's in GRRM's top 3 favorite characters. And because Sansa isn't among these groupings, they are ridiculously jealous and believe that Arya deserves to be punished. It's also why whenever a character shows love or loyalty towards Arya, treats her like a human being, or a plot is about her, or she does something good and heroic or political, they erase her. Jon deserts the NW and dies for Arya? Erased. LSH and the BWB+Gendry are glaringly obviously looking for Arya? Erased. Brienne's quest about finding Sansa leads her on a journey following Arya's path and learning more about Arya's fate after her escape from KL? Erased. The Northerner's rising up in Ned's and Arya's names? Erased. Arya successfully pulling off a coup in Harrenhal that wins the castle for Robb? Erased. Arya hearing Ned's voice (not Bran's voice) through the weirwood at Harrenhal that gives her the strength to try to escape? Erased. Arya saving 4 people from a burning barn, including a toddler she later cares for? Erased. Arya being the second most powerful skinchanger after Bran? Erased. Arya learning all the same skills as Varys? Erased.

The fandom just loves erasing Arya's importance, her themes, her actual arc, her intelligence, the political skills she is learning, and the context in which she does things, just so they can prop other characters like Sansa up. But it's so pervasive that they've convinced so many other fans of this too, and it didn't help that we have misogynistic dudebros and incels in this fandom who overly criticize Arya for things that they applaud in the male characters. Like seriously, Arya has done nothing worse than what Ned has done, but which one in the fandom is deemed "good" and "honorable"? Ned.

But what's funny about these people is how they clearly can't read. The reason why Ned kept talking to Arya, is because he was blaming her for the fights with Sansa, and thought that Arya was the problem when it came to Septa Mordane. He was admonishing her. The reason why he got Arya water dancing lessons was to keep her busy, and he obviously knew it would be a good outlet that would teach Arya to focus her anger, and gain more discipline and patience. He never intended on the lessons to go far. He thought it was a phase she would grow out of before conforming into a southern lady. The reason why he said Syrio could come to Winterfell with them, but that Sansa couldn't say good-bye to Joffrey, is because Syrio wasn't a freaking Lannister, and the point of them leaving secretly had to do with the Lannister's being dangerous. But apparently that's favoritism and it means he didn't love Sansa? Even if Arya was his favorite, he clearly loved Sansa enough to think Sansa was well-behaved enough that she would never dare be the instigator towards Arya.

They want Arya severely punished in this story, but it's not even just Ned they want to punish her. Lately I've even been seeing disturbing things about them wanting Gendry to rape her. Imagine wanting a 12 year old to be raped or sexually assaulted, even a fictional one. It's disgusting and it's unhinged. They want Arya to suffer unimaginable torments but as soon as someone mentions an ending for Sansa that doesn't include Sansa being queen and having a Disney fairy tale ending they shriek and cry and send death threats. And I'm not even talking about people theorizing that Sansa will go dark or die by the end. I'm talking about people getting ulcers from the mere suggestion of Sansa ending the series in an arranged marriage and that she might have to seek love outside of her marriage considering GRRM loves tragic romances. But no, Arya and Dany are the special punching bags in this fandom, who deserve horrible things done to them, for... *checks notes*: "Doing the exact same things the male characters are doing and being praised for".

#arya stark #anti sansa stans