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spnasylum · 3 years

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My notes while listening to Misha’s comments on the podcast: (grab a snack!)

In light of the most recent fandom drama I decided to listen to *that* podcast and take notes as I went along about what was actually said and then give my take on it as objectively as possible. This is basically an essay so strap in!

He complains about not getting a trailer on set that’s the same as Jared and Jensen’s. Even though he has one that can accommodate 3 people. This was the first point of discussion inspired by opening up the interview with a brief chat about Misha currently being in his camper van and how he’s sleeping in it even though he’s still home in Bellingham. The whole hour and 26 minutes has an undertone of complaining and ego stroking by all involved.

Says he’s sad he didn’t get to be there for the final days of filming.

Seems a little nervous about if friendships made during the shows run will last now it’s over.

Admits he has no plan in place or anything coming up career wise and he’s unsure of his future. This is where he brings up Walker and The Boys and says if he had shows like that to go to he wouldn’t feel SPN ending was so monumental. It is said with a slight tone of bitterness.

Side note: the hosts Alaina and Malik seem to be fine with running with the narrative that Misha was part of the show it’s entire 15 year run. Misha clears this up eventually by saying he joined in season 4.

Misha says that he realized about six years ago that SPN could run as “we” wanted it to, implying he has any say in keeping the show going or not. He asserts that he would have been on the show up until the very end in any case. But he didn’t feel that way the first few years he was on the show. So that makes me think something or someone involved gave him the feeling he could be confident in being in the cast for however long SPN aired. Maybe this was after Sera left? Maybe this was when he agreed to a significant pay cut and demotion? Either way it seems he felt SPN = job security.

Misha doubts he’ll have the feeling of job security again.

Says from around age 11 he wanted to be a politician.

Says he saw “successful, untalented” actors and decided “I can do that”. He realized that was naive and it’s actually not easy to be that successful and by the time he got his career going he was basically just in it for the fame it’s not anything he took seriously.

We find out his wife did a doctorate in gender history... for some reason.

That Marilyn Monroe was some sort of baseline for him about creating a public persona (🤷🏽‍♀️) except for getting cosmetic surgery he points out.

Talk about how he got started. Acting classes, improve groups. Moving between Chicago, DC and LA.

Discussion about the differences and similarities between Hollywood and Washington.

States he got a consultant to help him cultivate a fan base and image to connect with an audience after getting on SPN. Admits that was a double edged sword because an anonymous public start thinking that they really know you and things start getting weird.

Mentions trying to find a balancing act of being authentic and having a private life but still keeping your fans.

He admits that the fan base he grew for himself by seeming accessible has caused him to attract people who don’t have any boundaries. This is when he claims the “dialing it back” in regard to how much he shares and mentions his kids specifically as something he doesn’t feel comfortable with putting out there. Uses the word “unhinged” to describe them.

Malik mentions “crazy fans” who seem to know too much about you and finding out where you are etc. Using the example of fans turning up at an airport wanting autographs and you wondering how they even knew you’d be there and what flight you taking. He asks Misha to share experiences about his own crazy fans.

This is when Misha uses the example about having fans who think that when he tweets something out he’s communicating with them personally.

Alaina then says that in the Supernatural fandom people fight each other to protect Jared, Jensen and Misha and it’s “very bizarre”. She volunteered that people think Misha secretly hates Jared and that it’s not true. Not sure why she decided to direct the conversation to a place that would cause drama and give Misha a chance to play victim.

And then...

That’s when he claims that he was public enemy number one with super fans of the show because he’s taking attention away from Jared and Jensen.

That’s when he brings up the alleged organized attack to take down his Facebook account. He says they reported him for... *pauses... claims to not know what. But that whatever it was “Facebook bought it and took it down”. Facebook deleted/deactivated his account but he eventually got it back.

Side note: Facebook (like all social media) have always been bias when it comes to people with leftist views and let them have free reign on the platform. So he must have done something that they would decide to suspend him. I don’t think J2 fans can be blamed for the content he posts and if it violated any ToS. As we know he can post some inappropriate things on social media.

He then brings up the allegations of him taking money out of his organization. Stating it’s “categorically untrue” is all he brings forward as evidence to the contrary.

Side note: I don’t know why then that there’s no receipts or transparency. Why is his mother a beneficiary, why do people who mention he owns Stands get blocked, why set everything up in Delaware and have your for profit and so called non profit interests so entangled etc etc) I guess fans are just supposed to have faith and take his word for it.

He says that ALL of them (Jared, Jensen and himself) have people who hate them in the fandom. But overall the fandom is lovely and supportive of the cast and each other. Makes an attempt at stating there’s no kind of competition or animosity between he and Jared. I think this is like the 3rd or 4th time in the interview either he or Alaina bring up Jared but keep the focus on how Misha is the one facing “character assassination.”

Finally says that all of them have nasty things done to them and they all have had to consult security because of threats to their families etc, doesn’t specify which faction of the fandom that’s coming from. Mentions people filing police reports in the fandom but doesn’t say regarding who or what. Alaina reacts like it’s the first time hearing of this happening. Misha just goes “yeah!” Then they move on to talking about living situations.

Apparently Alaina and Misha were neighbors in LA but didn’t take advantage of that. She doesn’t live in LA anyone, wants a new adventure.

Misha mentions Bellingham is another thing about his future he’s unsure about and how his kids flourished there.

Brings up not being present with his kids even when he’s home because of work and side projects and that the one thing he’s enjoying right now it spending time with them. That he used to operate from a place of guilt because his kids felt like they only have one parent. He and Malik briefly spoke on how their careers have negatively affected their love lives.

Misha says he’s not really involved with Random Acts or running it anymore. (Ummm... what)

He and Alaina discuss Haiti and Nicaragua for a while.

Says he may try to get into directing. Says he likes having creative control. Mentions he likes doing his art installations.

Admits that getting a bit of success made him very entitled and wanting of special treatment. But claims he’s trying to keep that in check (where?) and he’s just like everyone else (well duh!). But he “trades on his celebrity” to get stuff and it makes him feel dirty (I think everyone with any kind of following does that though so nbd)

Talk of how TV/film is more diverse in telling minority stories these days.

Was asked by Malik if he has any kind of chip on his shoulder career wise and Misha says the chip on his shoulder is being bored. But says he needs to work on being more engaged.

He then abruptly wants to end the interview. Saying he has to pick up his kids. Malik wants another question. He asks how Misha has been hurt or healed by his career.

Misha then brings up the movie Karla. Again admitting to becoming more like Paul psychologically irl. But says knowing he has that type of evil in him somewhere (and says that we all have that in us) made him more empathetic to the human condition.

They then say their goodbyes. End of interview.

——

My takeaway. The worst thing he can think to say the people who don’t like him in the fandom did was trolling to get his Facebook deactivated? Also that people can see the suspicious nature of his businesses? It would be really easy to settle that with actually being transparent about the finances, which they aren’t and not having close family as benefactors though. Also, I can only speak for myself. But I never hated him. I actually loved Castiel (before his character was there just to be there in recent seasons and Cass wasn’t Cass anymore. I think Misha’s need to pander to shippers/stay on the show was a great disservice to Castiel and his arc) I was a huge Misha fan, and participated in RA and Gish a lot. I absolutely adored Misha, I led myself to believe he was the most amazing person in the world, obviously that’s the reaction he wanted to cultivate from us. Unfortunately I learned too much, experienced first hand and heard too much to be able to keep cheerleading for him. I feel bad for the people still under the spell of feeling like it’s their job to keep being defensive and unreasonably loyal to someone who you can’t and don’t really know and only have a superficial “relationship” with. Seeing the ever more unhealthy and toxic lengths people feel they need to go to to prop up his ego etc. The constant investment emotionally and financially that goes into it and the “sunk cost” if you let reality in makes it hard to let go I guess. Even he knows that what he’s done to gain and maintain relevance has attracted what he called multiple times an unhinged fan base he has to try and balance without losing his influence. I think he maybe had or has good intentions but his fame hungry drive and narcissistic personality traits win out in the end. The Heller’s seem to have, as always, taken what was said and blown it out of proportion, twisted things and created their own narrative. I do see them using key words from the interview a lot suddenly though to bully for him. So, I guess the dog whistle to the sycophants worked out. I hope that a time comes where they can have a more healthy relationship with the media and public figures they choose to gravitate towards. We can all get over zealous with things but there’s lines that shouldn’t be crossed. For some that seems sadly unlikely. I hope that Misha does indeed one day get himself in check as he calls it and I can feel comfortable to support him again. But so long as he’s being enabled and not held accountable again that seems sadly unlikely. Even though I do occasionally find myself being drawn in by the facade again a little and quickly retreating because the issues remain the same. There is a problematic dynamic in the Supernatural fandom for sure. That’s why for a long time I opted out and just watched the show separately from fandom. It’s why when I found out it was ending I had this odd sense of relief I wasn’t expecting to feel and it made me sad. I hope that now the show has aired its finale we can all reflect on things, hopefully be more self aware and objective and most importantly honest about what really has gone down and why. When things started turning sour there have been plenty of times it could have been nipped in the bud yet wasn’t. People who used this silly yet special show in selfish ways, times when walking away would have been better than sticking around trying to make things and people into something never intended to be, giving into tribalism while claiming we’re a family... for that I think we all hold a little piece of responsibility.

You can listen to it yourself on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0m07her5JUf0JGGtDVohtJ?si=c-RdyZzFQmSzffgNzZhkQg

#anti misha #anti misha collins #misha collins #supernatural #fandom #anti destihellers #strap in its a long one again #opinion #trying to be objective #alaina huffman #malik yoba #anti minions #misha #collins

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natsubeatsrock · 3 years

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Lower Your Expectations for Nalu

I'm going to start this post off more generously than I normally would. I don't have any real reason to. I just kind of want to reach some of the Nalu fans with this section. (Nalu fans probably shouldn’t want to read the rest.)

Generally speaking, it's better to lower your expectations for a ship becoming canon. That way, you are pleasantly surprised to see how it will happen. Sometimes a relationship should have more subtle canonization than a bombastic showing. If Mashima plans to make Nalu canon, we should be patient to see how it happens. It’s not impossible for Nalu to have some impressive showy way it becomes canon. However, it’s worth letting Mashima do his thing and let the chips fall as they may.

Alright, the kids are gone. Let's do this for real.

I've been running this blog for just over six years. You'd think that, at this point, it would be hard for me to be surprised by this fandom. I've seen all kinds of things happen, and that should be the case. I joined during a rather tenuous time where fandoms were more willing to go at it.

As it stands, the Nalu fandom is the gift that keeps on giving. Whenever I feel as though I can't think of anything else to say about this ship, something happens, and I'm brought back to writing about it. You'd think it would be me talking about how the ship functions in canon. However, fans seem willing to bend over backward to sing Nalu's praises.

I'd respect it if it weren't Nalu we're talking about. This might be one of the most overrated ships in anime. I'll never understand how most people who watch this series even passively wanted these two to become a couple. All the couples Mashima's written over the years, and this is the one he'll be judged for? (Also, maybe Gruvia, but we talked about that already.)

Still, I do have to give this some fandom credit. Mashima has taken nearly every possible opportunity to feasibly advance this ship since the Grand Magic Games ended (arguably even before that) and passed on doing much with it. On some occasions, it feels as though Mashima is directly mocking the idea that Nalu could possibly become canon. And yet, fans believe that Nalu will become canon at any moment because he draws a Twitter pic of them once every three months or so. (Yes, I did edit this sentence since Nalu Day. What of it?)

Recently, I got an ask comparing the Nalu fandom to the MAGA crowd. I'm not personally vindictive enough against Trump or his supporters to affirm that comparison. Though, I can't act as if I haven't been thinking of an analogy to describe Nalu fans. I think a better comparison might be fans of the Dallas Cowboys.

Cowboys fans seem to believe that their team can win the Super Bowl any season. That's not an inherently problematic perspective to take. You should hope that your team will do well. However, this often manifests itself in confidence that ignores the faults within individual Cowboys teams and the strength of their opponents. Not to mention, this ignores the objective fact that the Cowboys haven't done well in the playoffs for 25 years.

I don't think it's wrong for fans to believe that their ship will become canon. I don't know too many fans who wish their ship doesn't become canon. However, I always worry about the fans who believe their ship happening is an inevitability. Especially when things seem to be pointing away from the possibility of it happening. This is usually a recipe for toxic fandoms.

But, let me humor the idea for a moment.

What if Mashima really plans to make Nalu happen in the end?

As I'm writing this post, we're currently in the middle of the fight between the third Dragon God. We're getting close to the real conclusion of that battle. But after that, there are two big arcs until the series truly ends. Three if they decide to have one last battle against the quest-giving dragon.

If Mashima's going to make Nalu canon, how would that work now?

There's the "realization" route. This is the one I probably see the most. Natsu and Lucy could come to the clear realization that they have come to love each other throughout the series. Of course, you'd have to imagine that whatever would bring this on is more powerful than thinking the other has died.

Twice, throughout the series.

Each.

On top of several other crazy things to happen to them over 600 chapters of material spanning a decade and a half. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that some random new moment will change the tide for Nalu.

The other way to do it is to have a confession. Either Natsu or Lucy decides to share with the other the fact that they are in love. Their feelings are reciprocated, and you can figure out the rest.

Depending on who you ask, we've almost gotten this a few times. Lucy's had a few opportunities to talk about her relationship with Natsu and has been fairly nice about it. A few times it's hinted that there might be more to their friendship but nothing concrete. I've even seen it hinted that Natsu was going to confess in chapter 545.

But, that's just it. We've only gotten hints at the possibility that there's more. If Natsu and Lucy actually like each other romantically, why not make it clearer earlier?

"It's because he's being subtle about their shared romantic feelings."

Yeah, I have reason to doubt that.

Jellal and Erza have feelings for each other implied throughout Fairy Tail. Sure there's explicit stuff like their meeting before the Grand Magic Games started. But there's been plenty of subtle stuff surrounding their relationship. People make hints at their potential romantic relationship all the time in canon, even as recent as the last arc.

I feel like I say this a lot when talking about Jerza. But really think about the arcs they're together in. There's Tower of Heaven, Nirvana, the Grand Magic Games, Tartarus, Alvarez Empire, and Aldoron. Their relationship is brought up or hinted at in Fantasia, Tenrou Island, Avatar, and Mercuphobia. While that looks like a large amount of material, Jerza doesn't take up much space in any of these arcs. Outside of the Grand Magic Games, Nirvana, and Alvarez, these are small moments between the two of them at best. Sometimes it's even less than that. And yet, the ship makes sense to the vast majority of the fandom.

But that might be an unfair comparison. Jellal and Erza have a history dating before the series started.

Let's use a ship that involves characters that met after Natsu and Lucy. Gray and Juvia. (Wait, these guys again?)

The big thing with this ship has been how Gray feels about Juvia. We've known how Juvia feels about Gray literally since they met. However, we've seen Gray slowly change his views on Juvia. We didn't just jump from enemies to lovers. There was a subtle shift as the series went on.

Do you really think that Mashima couldn't do better with Natsu and Lucy? His main duo? The series is only possible because the two meet each other. But I'm supposed to believe that Mashima didn't want to make a Nalu romance seem more explicit?

If you were to ask me, the most likely route for Nalu now is a much less sexy option. If Nalu were to happen, it won't happen in a grand showing of affection. It will just... happen. We'll likely skip to some random point in time after they beat all the dragons and see them as a couple. Maybe we'll se an Earthland Nasha.

This isn't something anime/manga fans aren't used to. I know everyone likely thinks of a different series that has done this over the years. People will rag on series like Naruto and Bleach for doing this. For what it's worth, I do like both of those series and their endgame ships.

That said, I have two problems with this option.

First, Nalu doesn't have the kind of setup that those other ships have. You're not getting characters openly confessing before a fight. You're not getting two characters flustered over the prospect of feelings suggested to each other. Heck, you're not getting a "Silver Ray" situation.

"What about those times when Lucy was asked if she likes Natsu?"

Again, Lucy's not openly agonizing over that as part of their relationship. If this was something we were supposed to seriously consider as an option for her, we'd know.

Even then, this would only show that it's one-sided. Natsu hasn't had any similar moments where he considers liking Lucy. Anyone bringing up the waterfall scene is speculating at best. Do you really expect me to believe that Mashima will change that this far into the series?

But this doesn't even get into the second problem. Is this how you'd want Nalu to become canon?

I've said this before, but Nalu has been expected to become canon for close to a decade. That almost feels like an exaggeration. But one of the big chapters I usually point to for Mashima potentially making Nalu more overt is Lucy Fire. That chapter turned ten years old this past March.

Nalu fans have been inventing all kinds of scenarios and situations about how Mashima will make their favorite ship happen. Wouldn't it be disappointing for fans to see that this ship would happen without any of the pomp and circumstance you'd expect a ship like this to get?

I know plenty of people who were disappointed when their favorite ship just became canon without a lot of lead-up. I didn't love getting to the end of Bleach without knowing more about how Ichigo and Orihime got together. Yes, I know the novels exist, but I (literally) paid to read the manga. I'd like to have seen it happen in the manga. (This could be about Naruto, but I only own The Last.)

This is why I believe Nalu fans should lower their expectations. Do you know the fantasy fans have for Nalu happening? Natsu and Lucy finally being hit with the overwhelming realization they love each other? A tearful confession of their feelings for each other capped with a kiss? All of their friends cheering them on, knowing they should have been a couple a long time ago? Maybe even a glimpse at their wedding and their future kid?

Congratulations, that was Rave Master's main couple. Don't expect the same thing for Nalu. If Nalu will happen, it will look much more disappointing than what fans believe it will look like.

At this point, I'm even not sure that Nalu will happen. Mashima has made every version of Nalu look more romantic except the original. I can't apologize for my skepticism on its prospects. Even actual Nalu fans are worried about if it will happen. I will enjoy seeing more of this salt in the future.

Now, there's one question you might be asking of me. How will I react to Nalu happening?

I don't have some back-pocket post prepared in case Nalu does happen. Heck, I thought of making one but ended up writing this post instead.

However, I have been wrong about future events of Fairy Tail in the past. If I'm wrong and Mashima does make Nalu canon, then I'll talk about it. I highly doubt it will make me like the series less. It certainly won't affect anything I'm doing with the rewrite, given my rules for changes. Consider that I've been able to talk about Gruvia negatively at this point in the series. I'll absolutely continue to talk smack about Nalu if it ends up canon.

That said, I have reason to believe that I'm right about the direction Nalu will take. And if I'm right, don't expect my tone on Nalu to stay the same. At the very least, I can promise a third Nalu edition of "My Incredibly Unpopular Thoughts" if Nalu doesn’t happen. I haven't done one in years and I can't think of a better way to celebrate the ship dying once and for all.

#fairy tail #anti nalu #fairy tail month: seven of these?#to be clear #nothing specifically has prompted this #i just have bad timing #i've wanted to do a post like this for months #this is another situation #where one post became two #you'll see the second one some other time

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emotional-support-demon-crowley · 5 years

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I can’t stop thinking about Good Omens...

SPOILERS AHEAD. This is mostly based on the show though I’ve read the book many times over the years. Though it’s not the point or the purpose of what follows, you could boil this whole theory down to ‘god shipped an angel and a demon so hard she made the earth and humanity so they could meet and fall in love and then she created an ineffable plan in which they also managed to save it’.

So here goes. Both Aziraphale and Crowley are very different from their respective counterparts.

Aziraphale is genuinely nice and agonizes over being good and doing the right thing when all of the others of his ilk that we meet really don’t.

There’s a lot of evidence that Crowley is basically the same. Sure, he rolls his eyes at the other demons methods because they aren’t thinking big enough, but really, I think he just can’t stomach targeting evil towards a single individual. In truth, he’s pretty appalled when he encounters the evils dreamed up by humanity. And yeah, he’s stylish af and full of bravado, but that just makes the rest of the demons resent even him more.

So one day, bam! god creates the earth and both heaven and hell have the same thought. They both independently seem to have said to these misfits, “We have a very important job for you. The humans must be monitored. Go very far away from us and keep tabs on that. For 6000 years.”

So Aziraphale and Crowley show up on earth and I think in general they’re thrilled to be away from the repressive, toxic environments they came from. But they’re still fundamentally lonely.

From this perspective, their first conversation in the garden is so perfect. They are both adorable cinnamon rolls that are starved for attention and desperate for camaraderie, so Crowley decides to just strike up a conversation. What has he got to lose? And they both seem sort of excited/amused that they have a pleasant interaction. It’s probably the best conversation they’ve had maybe ever based on all the other angels and demons we meet.

I think it’s very telling that Aziraphale never admits to anyone else that he gave the sword away. He tells Crowley, one of his mortal enemies, after like half a minute of nice chit chat. And he gets all happily flustered when Crowley, despite the light sarcasm, says that he doesn’t think Aziraphale could do the wrong thing. This is in stark contrast to how he’s treated by everyone in heaven who constantly reinforce that he’s not measuring up to angel standards at every turn.

This scenario would explain why neither side really seems to check up on them. They’re reporting back, sure, but no one is bothering to verify facts on either side. Crowley does make the presentation about the highway, but honestly, that really looks more like hell’s monthly mandatory torture luncheon than an actual exchange of information. Everyone in attendance looks like their soul is being crushed, their brain is about to dribble out their ear, and they are keenly aware that they are currently in actual hell.

So Crowley and Aziraphale progress through all of human history and they just keep meeting up. And sure, maybe they disagree a little on their fundamental view points, but the interactions are always respectful and pleasant. Before long, they begin to do a series of increasingly large favors for each other.

In the church, Crowley set the rescue into motion, but he relied on Aziraphale to actually keep him from being discorperated. We know demons don’t trust each other, but Crowley has perfect faith that his angel will go against what heaven would expect him to do and save them both. And while we’re here, I’ve seen a few posts implying that Aziraphale might struggle if forced to chose between books and Crowley, but when the literal bombs were literally falling from the sky, we all saw where his priorities were.

I’ve also seen posts that propose the theory that Crowley didn’t realize he loved Aziraphale until he lost him, but I don’t think that can possible be the case. In my mind, Crowley realized what Armageddon would actually cost him well in advance. When he’s gently prodding about no more old book shops or classical music, he’s actually trying to get his angel to think about what else he might never see again. When he’s talking about how horrible eternity in heaven will be, the worst detail is who it will be spent with or in this case, without. Crowley isn’t trying to manipulate or trick Aziraphale into saving the world, he’s trying to get him to realized that the end of the world is the end of their relationship. That might feel like a stretch at first until you consider that as soon as Crowley accepts that saving the world might not be possible, he immediately goes into panic mode and suggests they run away together. Crowley has realized that Armageddon is going to rip them apart and take away the only place they’ve ever been happy. No matter which side wins, they’ll both be facing their own version of hell - spending all of eternity suffering because they can’t spend it together.

This explains why Crowley is so set on convincing Aziraphale that the two of them have to reject their origins and chose each other. When he says Our Side, he isn’t talking about their arrangement, or rebelling, it’s about the fact that all of heaven and hell put together does not deserve either of them. And that’s why he becomes so agitated when he gets shut down. Aziraphale has that moment where his voice catches when he tells him “You can’t leave Crowley” like he felt a pang of that same sense of loss, but he still hasn’t thought through the larger implications because he’s still so sure there must be a way to stop it.

And then Crowley tries again and fails again and responds in anger again. And before he can try a third time, he loses Aziraphale.

I agree with the theory that Crowley has some supernatural method to kept track of Aziraphale. His frequent last minute appearances are too timely to be pure luck. So when he gets discorperated, for the first time in centuries, if not millennia, there’s silence.

This explains why Crowley gives up. Because Crowley wasn’t fighting to save the world. Crowley was fighting for a safe place where he and his angel to continue to exist together. Without Aziraphale, there’s no point, the thing he feared most has already happened.

Which also means that everything he does once his hope is restored, he does for love. He sacrifices the Bentley for love, because deep down some part of him had to know the car would never be the same after what he was about to put it through. And yeah, he mourns it, but he doesn’t go to a bar and give up on stopping the end of the world because it’s gone.

And he recognizes Aziraphale instantly, even in a different body. Initially I assumed angels and demons could just see and identify soul, but based on how they resolve things in both heaven and hell no other angels or demons posses this ability. And Crowley compliments the outfit! Considering this is probably the first time Aziraphale has worn anything that isn’t a shade of white since the French revolution, it’s just a terrific example of positive feedback and support.

And then somehow, they manage to succeed. Apocalypse averted. And when Gabriel angrily asserts that everyone knows who is responsible, Crowley grins like a silly, love struck idiot. Did he just save the world just so he could stay with his angel? Hell yeah! He’s proud as fuck.

But then he feels something gut wrenching and he realizes that they saved the world, but they won’t survive to enjoy it, and Crowley gives up again. I imagine somewhere deep down he had the horrible, tragic thought that at least this time he wouldn’t be left alone - they would both die, but his suffering would be brief. And then Aziraphale threatens to never speak to him again. And Crowley’s brain does some math:

Dying together = We are FUCKED!

Dying together while Aziraphale is refuses to speak to me = No, fuck that noise!

Crowley is inspired and the world is well and saved, for now anyway, He FINALLY gets Aziraphale to agree they truly are on their own side, so they prepare to face the combined wrath of heaven and hell. During the proceedings, they both have a moment and it looks like fear, like they’re gathering themselves for the grisly end they’re about to face - until you know about the switch. When you consider they are both fully aware they aren’t facing any danger, I think that moment is actually both of them processing not only the fact that this could have been how they lost the other, but also that this is the shitty way that the person they love and cherish more than the entire world itself has been treated since the beginning of time. I’ve re-watched it a few times and I like to think I see anger and that sort of hopeless empathy feeling you get when you wish you could undo the pains someone you care about has already felt.

So yeah, I think the ineffable plan was that god decided all those ass-hat angels and demons who only wanted a war deserved to be disappointed in the biggest way possible, all except for these two lovable cream puffs who decided to chose love instead. Also, Crowley could have avoided a lot of wasted time, heartache, and shenanigans if he’d just said “I love you, angel, and the thought of being separated from you is more painful than anything I ever experienced in hell.” But honestly, I kind of love that everything they do whenever they’re together basically screams how much they love and care for one another without them ever actually saying it.

#good omens #crowley #aziraphale #ineffable husbands #good omens fan theory #good omens theory #good omens series #good omens headcanons #david tennant #michael sheen #anthony j crowley #good omens thoughts #the ineffable plan #god ships aziraphale and crowley #demon #angel #crowley loves aziraphale

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dreamofcentipedes · 6 years

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I haven't what d o you think about amon and akira's character arc, ship and relationship with seidou?

I’d say the crux ofthe Akiramon relationship is ‘loss’.

Amon is a character haunted by loss. Inmeeting Akira, he finds a kindred spirit - someone reeling from the same woundhe’d received in Mado’s death. The loss of Mado fuelled their passion tocontinuation of his legacy in the dedicated extermination of ghouls. To them,he was a martyr whose legacy must be lived up to.

For Amon, it was the same for all his comradeskilled by ghouls, such as Harima and Kusaba. For Akira, her mother.

However, the idea of making Mado’s death meansomething was just a coping mechanism, and as they both come to realise, onethat relied on the genocide of a species just like them. To deal with loss, they would cause more loss. This was a pernicious cycle for both sides in TG.

Yet it was more than a matter of revenge,legacy or grief.

They were also acting out of fear that more of the people theylove would be taken away from them.

So they fought who they perceived the enemy tobe - ghouls - to keep it that way. But throwing themselves into the frayjust led to more loss.

This was the result ofthe fatal contradiction faced also by Kaneki at this part of the series - infighting against losing things, you risk losing everything. This contradictionled to Yomo’s original belief that “We can only live by losing things”,although as we see by the end of :re he changes his mind and comes to believeit is worth fighting anyway. So do the themes of the series come to progress.

But at this juncture, loss reigns supreme.

Amon realises the potential consequencesbeforehand (if the wrong way around) and tries to keep Akira out of thegreatest danger, but she scorns him for seeing her as Harima. She can tell thathe is projecting his past losses onto her, if not realising that she is doingthe same thing to him with her father.

We can see how Akira reminds Amon of Harimaagain in these panels, but also how Akira equates him with her father. To avoidbecoming too Freudian, I don’t think it’s surprising that Akira wants a strongpresence in her life she can rely on as she did with her father, even if it’s adifferent kind of relationship.

So right after she chastises Amon forprojecting onto her, he moves in to kiss him while she’s still projecting onhim (right after talking about her father). It is fitting that they have thismoment in a graveyard, as all their thoughts are fixated on the dead. Amonreflexively blocks her kiss, and Akira says:

Akira is bitter towards Amon here not becauseof spurned love, but because he wouldn’t indulge her comfort. While Akira doeshave burgeoning feelings for Amon at this point, I think the intended graveyardkiss was more to relax her melancholy attitude and fear of loss by clinging toa strong figure and distracting herself in intimacy. The tone beforehand wasnot romantic, after all.

This is why I think Amon blocked the kiss. Heknew instantly that it was out of place, and, being as conscious of proprietyas he is, he also knew that her father’s graveside was no place for such anact. Though it was a reflex reaction, he could read Akira’s intentions wellenough. The look on his face is one of pity, and the look on hers is ofshame.

However, Amon also projects his loss of Madoonto Akira - an inevitability given that she is his daughter. She represents tohim a chance to atone for the ‘sin’ of not being strong enough to save him(paralleling Kaneki’s mindset once again).

Akira also blames herself for not being strongenough for her father - for preventing him from being promoted, and perhapsthrough some leap of logic for his death as well.

Blame is a common response to grief, and sofor a time she directed her anger onto Amon when she tells him she hates himfor failing to save her father: but only to direct the blame anywhere butinwards, where it is just as undeserved.

Amon helped Akira open up after her grief andresentment of him had driven her into an isolated corner, and she had helpedinspire him to greater heights of strength and responsibility as her mentor aswell as coming to terms with his loss. So when fate separated them, the shadowof loss loomed hard on them both.

Akira takes a page out of Amon’s book andlearns to deal with her loss by becoming responsible for someone else; shebecomes Haise’s mentor. Akira is someone who has always found her strength andsecurity in her attachments to others; but relationships are fragile in such aturbulent world, as she will soon find again when Haise ceases to be Haise.

Amon meanwhile occupieshimself by trying to rescue his former comrades from the shadows - still fighting to protect against that ‘loss’. It is implied he is searching for Kurona, who he was powerless to help before as a CCG Officer but is able to now as a half-ghoul like her.

Perhaps the reason he was at Rushima was because he followed her tracks there.

Akira was also someone he wanted to protect, but he feared to face her head-on because of how he had changed. He may have also thought her safer that way, as Shironeki did with Touka.

Amon has become half of what Mado’s death led Akira to despise. His views have changed upon inhabiting this new body, but Akira remains human with her prejudices stronger than ever, now that ghouls have taken away Amon and Takizawa as well.

Despite this, though she may not realise it yet, Akira’s prejudices are already waning. Mentoring a half-ghoul, the very same one partway responsible for Amon’s ‘death’, is making her gradually more open to the idea of peace with ghouls. Though she partakes in the initial extermination attempt of Takizawa, she later risks her life to save him due to this gradual acclimatisation to ghouls. It is what will allow her to accept Amon later, and eventually, ghouls as a whole.

Speaking of Takizawa, now would be a good time to address that part of the question. Seidou was for both of them another person they wanted to avoid losing. So despite the blood on his hands, when they see him again Akira shields him and Amon refuses to give up on him.

Whatever the circumstances, they will not let themselves lose him again. What all of this means to Seidou can be read here.

Haise’s subversion of Mado’s mantra is also a point of interest.

I use a shot from the anime here because the translation of the manga I have at hand says “Fight even if your hands are trembling”. I don’t know whether that’s a mistranslation, but I think it’s significant that Mado says this in the anime because it clearly parallels with what Haise says later on, as well as matching the manner of his own death (perhaps it was a change requested by Ishida?). We can only speculate, but the similarity cannot be ignored.

Perhaps Akira taught Haise this version of her father’s mantra, altering it to keep him alive rather than risking everything for the kill. That’s how important it is to her to avoid losing her loved ones again like how she lost her father.

But when the people she lost are returned to her, she doesn’t know how to react.

After talking with Kaneki, someone with very similar experience with loss, Amon comes to understand how she feels.

Akira, who had lived for so long without Amon by her side, is now gripped with fear when he returns: does she open the walls around her heart again to let him in, or will doing so totally undermine her emotional defences should he disappear again?

Again it comes back to the ultimate question for these two: how do we deal with loss? Even her connection to her father is severed when Touka makes her question his actions, and, consequently, her own.

Touka accurately analyses Akira as someone trapped in the past, and makes her consider how destructive the cycle of revenge is.

She remembers Mado’s actions with pride - Mado, who was likewise stuck in the past, unable to cope with loss, and lived for revenge for his wife - when it was this toxic behaviour that led to his loss. So long as Akira continues to follow in his mistaken footsteps, she will continue to experience more loss.

When Touka tells her about her own father, about how he was kind to her but ruthless to Investigators, killing them solely for revenge for his wife until loss claimed him too: naturally it resonates with Akira.

They are parallel stories, and their respective family trees encapsulate the whole problem with the cycle of revenge. Mado and Arata both killed each others sides out of revenge for their wives, until Mado (together with Shinohara) wound up killing Arata. In turn Arata’s daughter killed Mado, so Mado’s daughter seeks to exterminate her. Even though Touka wasn’t aware that Mado was her father’s killer, it is not as if Arata had anything to do with Kasuka - the desire for revenge is not isolated, but covers the whole enemy species.

To see Touka reject her own father, despite having lived the same kind of story as Akira, makes Akira realise the truth behind her words. Inability to cope with loss is what led her father to his grave, and it is the source of all her misery, past and present.

She can no longer deflect her grief as anger against ghouls, so she has no choice but to face it head on. So now more than ever, Akira feels horribly, emptily alone.

Having discarded the symbol that her father was to her, she now discards the symbol of Haise, facing that loss directly as well.

Akira’s history of projecting her lost ones onto others - making them a symbol to her of her loss - is a habit she is breaking now. If she were to stay now, she would just end up projecting Haise onto Kaneki; always comparing them and lamenting what she has lost. She cannot do that if she hopes to live in the present. The problem is not that she can’t distinguish Kaneki from Haise, but that she can all too well: she can’t unite the two in her mind while the change - and the loss - is still so fresh.

But while Kaneki at this point can only remind her of the past, Amon now presents something new to her. Having changed so much from before, he is no longer a mere stand-in for her father. He presents new ideas and new perspectives.

Akira feels that without her past and the emotions she derived from it, she is nothing. But Amon tells her that a future is possible.

Akira is currently feeling emptiness, but as Amon says…

It is only through dealing with the emptiness of the present, where all the past has been wiped away, that one can find one’s own, truly independent path towards the future. It’s not an easy task but these two who understand that better than anyone can support each other through it.

And now, knowing that she is no longer projecting onto him, or onto herself…

He can accept her kiss, and her love, as they embark to find a new path for themselves in such an uncertain world.

When the time comes to save Kaneki, Akira can act against her father’s legacy with little hesitation. Though they now know how to move on from loss, it is still worth saving those they care about - they have simply grown mentally stronger and better equipped for the task. This is the new path they can walk - one of much more clear heroism.

When Hide tells Amon he is going to this effort because he loves Kaneki, Amon gives a knowing smile as he can relate. Though Amon seems to act for the sake of abstract justice, he has always been driven by this much more personal sense of loss - to honour the fallen and protect the living of his closest friends. We see this same kind of smile (with his eyes hidden again to draw emphasis to the smile) when Kaneki tells him he fights only for the people closest to him.

Here too, with his more accurate perception of himself, he relates. So he goes to help save Kaneki out of no perception of justice as has often misguided him; but because he cares about him. As Hide says, that’s all the reason he needs and it’s the only reason he’s ever really walked by.

Akira does so as well. Now in a more stable place, she finds herself capable of caring for Kaneki again. She shows that she understands he is ultimately the same man as Haise when she calls him by that name. Having spent this time away searching for her ‘present’ self, she can accurately see his present self too, separate from the mirage of the past.

Amon overcomes his past for good when he summons the courage to kill Donato, despite still loving him. He quite literally kills the past he doesn’t want to let go of. He could not have done this without the help of Takizawa, who dealt with his own losses by deciding to live for Akira and Amon, and he repays their kindness in full.

And so, as the epilogue shows us…

They remain together, five years later, still a part of human society. Seidou went off the grid with nothing more that he could do for them and, though he went on to live nobly, sadly his losses clearly stuck with him. These two, however, managed to finally break free from their past and the old cycle of the Black Goat’s Egg. They have found a way to live afresh.

#tokyo ghoul #tg meta #akiramon #akira mado #koutarou amon #seidou takizawa #haise sasaki #ken kaneki #touka kirishima #kureo mado

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melodrqmas · 6 years

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This isn’t a call out post or anything but my back literally aches just thinking about the mental gymnastics it must take to see what happened in season five with Memori and to write it off as toxic, while still shipping Murphy/Raven.

Tl;dr: the biggest problem for me in this fandom, is not in fact the relationship between Murphy and Raven, but the fandom appreciation and oversimplification, along with the hypocrisy that comes with it.

Far be it for me, as an able bodied person, or anybody for that matter to tell anyone that it’s wrong or gross to ship Mur/ven. In fact, ship whoever the hell you want, regardless of their past, I don’t care. Murphy is not abusive towards Raven. Abuse implies that it is a continuous violence (either physical or emotional) is occurring repeatedly, which it is not. Thus, the relationship between the two is not “toxic” (as much as I hate the word) for that reason in itself. There’s been healing and forgiveness and they are even at a point where they can joke about what’s happened between them. I’m not saying they should, but more than once, much to my dismay, has Murphy made a few quips about her leg and Raven was visibly amused. She could get together with him if she so pleased, nobody in canon would bat an eye.

That in itself, is grounds for the fandom wide rule of “ship and let ship”. Shipping is taken way too seriously as it is. It’s cool to vibe with a dynamic, want them together romantically and even prefer them over a currently canon relationship (I’ll touch on this a bit later). The amount of interaction between these two is certainly enough grounds for a solid ship; I guarantee you are not alone and that there are plenty of transformative works for you to get your fix (some of my all-time favourite fanfics have Murphy and Raven as the main pairing). I personally don’t see it, but I’m not here to tell you what you are seeing on screen isn’t romance and you’re all delusional. I might have used to be that way, but I decided that I was a part of the problem I’m now trying to address. Like I said, fandom experience is so much more pleasant when you stop giving a shit about who disagrees with you (but if you asked I could redirect you in the ways of some A+ meta, debunking why a certain line/glance between the two, was not in fact code for “I love you. Have my children.” I digress.)

So we’re settled then. Mur/ven is not a toxic relationship, I’m baring it out because I don’t want to step on any toes in their tag, not because it disgusts me to even spell it out (if it did, I’d think of a not-so clever nickname like the rest of this fandom loves to do). A part of me, and I don’t think I’m alone on this, will always be unsettled at the idea of Raven cozying up to the person who disabled her; I hate the Shaw/Murphy/Raven cave scene a hell of a lot. But the relationship is not toxic, and it wouldn’t be even if they did hook up. I can’t use that as an argument. Fandom culture tends to label things they don’t like as unhealthy and toxic.

And that’s where I’m going with this. Memori.

I’m going to be the first person to admit where they were said to be within those last months on the Ring was Not a Good Place for a relationship of that magnitude. They were together over 5 and a half years, these problems could have been brewing for ages. In fact, I’ll even argue they have. 4x08-4x12 established their extreme codependence (”your home is with me” used to be a big favourite of mine but it has since left a more sour taste in my mouth), and 4x13 set up Emori’s enthusiasm about space contrasted against Murphy’s disdain subtly, but effectively. Both key factors in this big messy breakup.

But this notion that (M)Emori (because, misogyny.) is toxic has been around since 4x07, ever since she “put” fake!Baylis in the radiation chamber, under the pretext that “she’s a bad influence on Murphy”(uhhhhhh, lol..?). What happened previously to this same episode, you ask? Well, it was the climax to our new angsty, enemies-to-friends-to-hopefully-lovers! I’m not even going to pretend like this ship is baseless, because I do get it. They have history, baggage and their relationship is so! compelling! And it doesn’t hurt that Murphy and Raven are both very attractive and have excellent chemistry. What gets to me, though, are these manufactured, fandom wide mentalities, that make out one female character to be the villain, in order to boost another female character/ship, when the narrative is clearly showing us she’s not quite in the wrong.

You may not like Emori, her relationship with Murphy might not resonate with you. That’s okay. But throwing around big words such as abusive and toxic is not right. Memori are too on and off for you? Okay! I get that. There were a few missteps in their arc this season. That doesn’t make it inherently unhealthy, though. Emori “only wants Murphy when he’s healthy and happy”? That’s complete and utter bullshit. Point to me in the script where she’s ever said that. Interpretation is one thing, but don’t ignore canon when it’s right in front of you (that flies in fanfic; not meta). Because, as far as I’m concerned, she did not just drop him the minute his mental illness caught up to him. She says in 5.06, 24 minutes and 48 seconds in, that Murphy “pushed her away again, and again, and again.” So, clearly, she made efforts to help him and love him, but he was unable to accept it, thus causing a painful split for the both of them. The fucking thesis statement in Jasper and Octavia’s arcs have been “you can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved.” Tell me how this is any different.

Can you imagine how hard this was on Emori? The one person who she thought she could rely and depend on, turn on her when she was at her peak, without fully being able to explain it himself? You’ve heard all of the defence for Murphy, so I’ll spare you all of the sympathies about his mental illness, because I do love him and I want him to get better. But notice how there’s not a single person calling his behaviour towards her toxic. No one’s boycotting Memori because of how he mistreated her. You did not need flashbacks to see how he would berate her, (ha! actually that all goes away because she snapped at him and said something that hurt :( his :( feelings :(, right?) in front of everyone, how he was jealous. And we only got a tiny glimpse of that, a few minute segment. I’m proud of her from stepping away from that situation. She’s not the toxic-partner here, in fact, that’s the fucking opposite of toxic. That’s self-care. So rare is it on TV that we see this kind of positive representation, that loving yourself is more important than loving your SO. It’s raw, messy and real.

And of course, fandom has ruined it.

Basically, moral of the story is as follows: Murphy and Raven have come such a long way, have overcome their issues and are now in a place where the majority of the fandom can ship them guilt-free. Who would’ve thought two seasons ago, huh? So, why is Memori so “toxic” and to the point of no return in regards to their relationship, despite that clearly not what canon is trying to portray?

#good and fresh hot take i thought up of in class today #the 100 #the 100 meta #memori #john murphy #emori #raven reyes

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