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#sam is dean’s son who’s john
he apologizes for parentifying Dean then immediately parentifies him again with a side of “btw you might have to kill the person whom keeping alive has been your only reason for living toodles” truly a character
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Actually the implications of John also being bisexual are so fucking tasty to me because like. OG John has no support system and no protection against the world except his own perceived strength so he learns to ferret out anything that can possibly be seen as weakness to those around him and that includes any affection or attraction he might feel towards men because nothing screams "stay in your fucking closet" like spending all your time around a fringe subculture of serial killing doomsday preppers in the Midwest during the Reagan era.
By the time he notices Dean starting to look a little too long at boys his age, he's probably convinced himself that whatever he felt (still feels but ignores) was a temporary youthful indiscretion, and of course Dean can't afford those, doesn't get to have those, he's got to be a soldier. He's got to be a better soldier than John, even.
I dunno I've just had enough conversations with family members who are loudly but somehow also mildly homophobic and yet say or do things that make me *eyeballs emoji* not to think this is not only possible but arguably likely.
#supernatural#the winchesters#spn#spnwin#john winchester#shifting my headcanon of john to the type of person who doesn't think of himself as homophobic if he ever things about it at all#and would even probably try to stop a hate crime if he saw one happening right in front of him#(or likes to think he would)#but also views his own queer desire--and thus that of others--with suspicion and contempt#like something frivolous that he simply doesn't have the luxury to pursue as a Real Man in the Real World with Real Responsibilities#and when you live like that especially due to your own choices anything that seems like a luxury you view with a certain level of contempt#so he's like 'heh must be nice to have time for boyfriends' in the most condescending and degrading way imaginable#in the same way he probably treated sam's affinity for academia#in fact i'd argue a lot of what we see from dean with regards to the way he mocks sam for certain things is probably just echoes of john#and what's REALLY crazy-making is the way most of these things dean mocks sam for early on later prove to be things DEAN actually does enjo#dean likes to read and he loves chick flicks and he gets excited about tomatoes and enjoys dressing up nice#dean learned early on that certain things were not acceptable for a Real Man from john bullying him out of doing them#and he does the same to sam#and one of the things he consistently mocks sam for in the beginning is his perceived sexuality#and sure we could just chalk that up to stereotyping but EVEN THEN that jives with the idea that#john simply put his own queer desire in a box labeled 'weaknesses real men don't have' along with idk a love of reading and salads and bein#emotionally vulnerable and sincere with people you love#and then he told Dean 'this is the box of forbidden things'#and dean the ever-dutiful son learned his lesson well
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angelsdean · 2 years
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john’s like. i have my soldier (dean), my failed son (sam), and my third-times-a-charm son (adam) 
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drum-bot-brian · 8 months
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i hate it when people make it seem like sam had a good childhood bc dean kinda parented him! like obvy dean did but in the show hes clearly shown to be just a normal teenager who went on a bunch of dates too? he left sam im pluckys for like hours and sam was pretty severely neglected bc dean started hunting with john and leaving sam alone? like this isnt anti dean bc he was just doing teenager things and trying to spend time with his dad but we need to consider the fact that sam had a imaginary friend at like 12 bc he was so lonely and ran away when he was a kid bc he hated hunting (read john) so much! like sam would have known how hard it was to be a kid and he valued his studies a lot so it must have been bad for him to have run away. all those people he thought he was not taught how to hunt need to remember the fact that sam was given a gun when he was still scared of the dark. and even if he wasnt hunting do you thing john winchesters kid wouldnt know how to defend himself? also consider his heavens being when he got away from his home? his random thanksgiving when he was like 13 was better than any times he spent with his family basically
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trannydean · 1 year
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here's a big long thing i already had typed out on another platform. it's for the hunter!jaime au.
i want to think that jaime never went on a hunt with john and his boys because of several reasons;
1) jaime's parents forbade him from going on hunts until he was 16 (which he turned after his parents died and he ran away, so he never would've gotten to go on a hunt while his parents were alive).
2) dean would never agree to jaime's pleads on helping him sneak himself on a hunt with sam, dean, and john, because dean doesn't want jaime around john anymore than he has to be. he doesn't want his dad corrupting the most important person in his life other than sam. he doesn't have it exactly in his head like that, but he sort of knows that everything his dad touches, he corrupts, and dean doesn't want that to happen to jaime.
BUT listen. i'm thinking one time somewhere between 1993-1996. sam and dean have been acquainted with jaime and jackie for a few years now. jaime's and jackie's parents have started letting them stay at bobby's some of the time, to give jackie's parents a break from babysitting the two cousins when jaime's parents are on hunts. sometimes the winchester boys are there at the same time as jaime and jackie, and bobby complains that he isn't running a daycare, but he loves all those kids like they're his own, so he doesn't actually mind.
this takes place one of the times all four kids are at bobby's. dean and jaime have yet another argument about jaime hunting. or, jaime trying to convince dean to sneak him along during a hunt with john and the boys. they get a bit more hot under the collar than usual, and sam and jackie end up butting in to break up the fight.
then john drops by unannounced to bring the boys on a hunt. jaime gets the idea to smuggle himself along, and while everyone else is distracted, jaime gets in the trunk and crams himself in the back, praying that john doesn't open it before they leave.
he doesn't. jaime doesn't get discovered until they get to the location of the case--i'm thinking around tallahassee, florida, because florida is pretty far away and that's the first place in florida i came up with.
john first stops to interview the latest victim's family of some sorta monster (idk what yet, idk if it matters to this or not) and jaime is starting to get tired of being in the trunk. it's stuffy, he's been in there for over a day of him in the same confined place. he's hungry, hungrier than he's ever been in his entire life, and he's getting grumpy. he bangs his fist against the back of the trunk.
the startled scream from dean on the other side of the trunk is almost worth all the time jaime spent getting jostled around and starved in the trunk. jaime pounds on the back of the trunk again and yells for the boys to let him out.
he hears the back doors open and shut, and a moment later, the trunk opens. sam and dean stand there shocked for a minute while jaime gets out of the trunk, shuts it, and complains about being hungry.
dean sputters "how did--i told you that you can't ever come with us!" "too late now," jaime grins in return. "you are going to be in so much trouble," dean hisses, just as john is coming back. sam and dean spin around guiltily as they hear john bark their names.
john demands to know why the hell jaime is here. jaime replies that he sneaked into the trunk to come along on a hunt, because he'd been really wanting to go on a hunt for a while and his parents wouldn't allow him to.
john huffs, and dean suggests quietly that they should take jaime back home before they continue the case. jaime, feeling betrayed, glares at him, while john says they can't do that, because denver is half a continent away, and they can't just drive back as soon as they got to the location of the next hunt. "no, i'll call [his] parents and tell them where [he] is, and then we'll continue the hunt. jaime will just have to join us."
jaime is shocked about john actually letting him be on the hunt, but excited. dean is definitely uneasy about this. he knows jaime is several years older than dean was the first time he went on a hunt, and jaime has been trained by his parents + has gotten some pointers from bobby, so it wasn't like jaime was walking in blind. but still, he'd never been on a hunt before, and it scared dean to think of all the different things that could happen to jaime.
john drives the kids to the cheapest motel, rents a room, and drops them off to go interview more families of recent victims. as soon as he's gone, dean blows up on jaime, telling him how much danger he could be in for coming along. jaime scoffs, saying that just because he's younger than dean, doesn't mean that he is helpless. he then points out that sam is younger than him, and sam comes along on hunts too. dean replies that sam sits in the car while dean and their father do the hunting, so he's not in any real danger. jaime says "if you think i'm sitting the car throughout this, then you're thinking wrong, asshole."
meanwhile, bobby and jackie have obviously noticed jaime is gone, and at first bobby thinks that jaime just went to hide in the junkyard after his fight with dean, which jackie had informed bobby about. but after a couple hours, the two began to get worried, and they had searched the entire salvage yard top and bottom, finding no sign of him.
they then search the house, because maybe jaime had been in there the whole time and not actually in the yard. when they don't find him there, bobby begins to get genuinely worried. he doesn't call jaime's parents for another few hours, after he had searched the woods around his place and still couldn't find any sign of jaime. jaime's parents are in the middle of a hunt and can't come themselves, but jackie's parents are able to (since they don't hunt).
by the time john calls jaime's parents to tell them where he is, it's the next day, jackie's parents have made the 9hr drive from denver to sioux falls, and nobody has slept a wink the entire time. jaime's parents are horrified to learn their kid is on a hunt in florida over twenty hours from their current location, with about the worst person they could think of their child being under the care of.
they demand for john to bring jaime back to bobby's place. john scoffs, and tells them no, he's going to finish this hunt before taking jaime anywhere. jaime's mom threatens that if jaime gets hurt before he is brought home, she will send john's ass to hell. john rolls his eyes, grumbles that there isn't any way he can make any promises, "and you know that", and hangs up. jaime's parents are flabbergasted over the fact that john had the balls to hang up on them, but decide to call bobby to let him and jackie's parents know where jaime is so they can stop worrying and looking fruitlessly.
jaime's parents debate on whether they should head to florida to pick up jaime, but ultimately decide that by the time they'd wrapped up their hunt and got to florida, john would probably have finished his hunt and could've been on the way back to sioux falls already. they just have to hope jaime has enough common sense to keep himself safe.
now, back in tallahassee. john had come back to the motel with grub for the kids, and jaime was scarfing it down, because he hadn't eaten for over twenty-four hours by now. dean warns him to eat slower, but jaime ignores him, and ends up throwing everything back up because he ate too fast. john grunts "you got warned", and jaime is just burning with shame and embarrassment, while sam offers jaime a sympathetic look, and sneaks jaime some of his own food. dean does, too, careful to make sure john doesn't notice--he would've told them not to give jaime any of their food, because they needed it to be able to concentrate on the hunt.
while they eat, john tells them their next move, what they're going to be doing on this hunt. he asks jaime if he has any experience with firearms, which jaime replies "uh, yeah, of course i do". dean gives jaime a warning look, while john mutters "at least your parents are doing something right". it's a big argument between john and jaime's parents with how they are raising jaime.
idk the hunt goes on, john tests jaime to see how well he is with a firearm. as in he puts jaime in a compromised position where jaime has to defend himself against the creature/s they are after. dean is absolutely horrified at this, but jaime is able to hold his own and slow down the creature/s enough for john and dean to come in and finish the job. john offers jaime a "that wasn't too bad, kid", which makes dean feel awful because he himself hardly gets compliments like that from his dad, and jaime feels sick to his stomach from the combination of the blood and gore of the hunt and the fact he knows john almost never compliments dean like that.
later, dean quietly asks john how he knew jaime would've been able to hold his own until he and john could get to him. to dean's horror, john replies that he didn't; "i figured if the kid had good enough instincts and was smart enough, [he] would've been able to take care of [himself]. and apparently [he] is". dean swallows, then whispered, "but what if [he] hadn't been?" john looks at dean and says, "you know what would've happened. there probably wouldn't be enough of [him] left to burn".
after they clean up the body/ies of the monsters, they all head back to bobby's place. during the drive, jaime (who is sitting in the middle seat between sam and dean) falls asleep on dean's shoulder, and dean covers jaime up with his own jacket. john watches this through the rearview mirror. dean notices and meets john's eyes through the reflection for a moment before dean looks away.
they make it to bobby's the next day. jaime's parents are there waiting, and jaime is met with instant fierce scolding about sneaking into the impala to go on a hunt. jaime argues that he was fine, he did good on the hunt, and "it's not as bad as you say it is". john puts in that jaime wasn't too bad on the hunt, and though jaime hates this man more than anyone else in existence, he can't help but feel a little appreciative of his "support". joseph snaps at john, saying "this isn't the time", and orders jaime to go wait in the car. jaime mumbles goodbyes to everyone outside of his parents and john, and then does as he's told.
john tells sam and dean to wait in the impala, while jackie's parents take jackie inside. bobby lingers for a moment, looking between john and jaime's parents, before going inside, as well. he stays close to a window, though, to keep an eye on them in case he needed to intervene.
jaime's parents and john have a long discussion (read: argument) about the events of the past couple of days. jaime's parents say he "shouldn't have encouraged jaime's want to go on a hunt", while john argues he had nothing to do with it, and he never wanted "another kid to worry about" while on the hunt. he also says that "the kid's a natural, [he] should be able to utilize the skills [he] has". jacqueline responds fiercely that no, jaime should not be out in the field, because he's too young and not mature enough to truly handle himself against monsters. john replies that he already has, "and [he] did a damn good job at it". jaime hears this, and again feels guilty about it. sam and dean hear it, too, and sam whispers to a dejected dean that he did a great job on this hunt, too. dean doesn't respond.
jacqueline reveals that the real reason she doesn't want jaime on hunts at his age is because she and benjamin lost their sister bethany during a hunt when they were kids, because their father forced his three children on hunts when they were too young for it, too. "i don't want to lose my only baby the way my father lost one of his". she says this quietly enough so that jaime can't hear, but the impala is parked closer, and dean had discreetly rolled his window down enough so that he could hear anything the adults were saying. he was shocked to hear about this, as jaime had never told him about this (jaime didn't know).
jacqueline storms off to the car and gets in the passenger seat; she's too pissed of to drive. joseph glares at john for a moment before following after his wife, getting in the driver's seat, and pulling away. the whole way back is silent, besides the music over the radio playing softly. jaime falls asleep on the way there, and once they get back, it's dark, and he's still asleep. joseph carries him to bed.
jaime gets grounded, and doesn't get to see sam and dean as part of the punishment. he still gets to see jackie, because joseph and jacqueline still go out on hunts and benjamin and marilyn have to come over with jackie to watch jaime. jackie tries to offer words of assurance to jaime, as do benjamin and marilyn, but jaime ignores them, only coming out of his room for dinner.
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jackklinemybeloved · 2 years
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secret good spn that lives in my head episode that is told entirely in flashback and analyzes the winchester family dynamic and is called “cat’s cradle”
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loveofastarvingdog · 2 years
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just remembered john and dean before mary died. don’t touch me 😵‍💫
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suncaptor · 2 years
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Dean would watch John acting all depressed and irritable after Sam's gone while also paying way more attention to Dean and still be like John's sadness here is more than he'd ever care about me because he still has Sam, the son who was lashed out upon and fought with constantly before being completely disowning, as his favourite :(:(
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The thing is that Dean is absolutely a big LOTR fan (Led Zepp and literature fan? He's read all the books including the Similarion and extended info. Nerd.) but he rarely rereads or watches the movies because the "Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam." exchange and the Faramir Boramir storylines wreck him for a few days afterwards.
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“Don’t you go disappearing on me, you son of a bitch.”
DEAN. WINCHESTER. THESIS. STATEMENT.
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meowmeowmessi · 2 years
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John with Sam: My baby, my meow meow, let me pet you.
John with Dean: *throws salt at him* Begone demon!!!
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ishades · 2 years
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I miss early seasons sam come back!
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gh-0-stcup · 2 months
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The weirdest take I've seen on Reddit is that the show made John Winchester a worse father in the later seasons than he was initially. That the worst he did early on was being a bit distant and training his sons from a young age. And of course, that stuff wasn't that bad because it was necessary to keep them safe.
Just off the top of my head here's what we get from season 1 alone. Dean being traumatized by John's treatment of him following the shtriga attack. John disowning Sam for going to college. John refusing to pick up his phone when Dean is literally dying. John physically intimidating Sam during an argument - one that started simply because Sam refused to go along with whatever John said to do without asking questions. Dean having to physically get between the two of them and having to physically pull them apart before they attacked each other.
There's a load of other stuff from the first 3 seasons as well. If anything, the show took a stronger stance regarding John's terrible parenting in those seasons than any of the later ones. The longer John was dead, the fonder the boys became of him.
#john was shown as controlling and emotionally abusive#he created a cult like family environment and isolated his children far beyond what was warranted for their lifestyle#he turned dean against sam to further isolate sam when he wanted to do something else with his life as a way to control him#ellen and bobby act as foils to refute the argument that what john did was necessary or unavoidable due to his trauma#both were hunters with similar backstories to john who managed to be better parents#dean himself had some choice words to say about john's parenting in season 3#and tbh i don't know how anybody can say john ever hitting his kids is unthinkable#after the fight between him and sam in dead man's blood#john is VERY quick to use physical intimidation against sam and neither boys seem at all surprised by the reaction#and i'm sorry but that is very much not an acceptable way for a father to approach his son - no matter how old the son is#yeah their childhood wasn't full of them cowering from their dad who beats them daily for kicks#but i don't know how anybody can watch s1 and firmly say that john would never even dreamt of decking one of his boys for mouthing off#the way sam and dean speak about their father is incredibly similar to all the men i've known who were hit by their dads#but who don't see it as abuse but as something that made them behave properly#the spn reddit is weirdly huge on minimizing john's abuse and it's soo uncomfy#because the emotional abuse was pretty severe and clearly traumatic to both boys#and the way fans who interpret physical abuse as having occurred are put down as just having read to much fanfic#or wanting to make john a monster with zero textual support#is fucked to me#like look at the show#look at the way john interacts with sam when they argue#look at the way the boys argue with each other#look at the way dean argues with other people#spn#anti john winchester#john winchester's a+ parenting
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certifiedwerewolf · 6 months
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As I slog my way through season twelve I am finding that I Do Not Like Mary Winchester As A Person, and this is a problem because I am writing a fic wherein John Winchester is a nuanced and complex person and not a card-carrying mustache-twirling evil villain and quite apart from character demonization not being particularly interesting anyway, I do not think having a Mary who doesn't much like her kids and kind of wishes she'd never had them would make the vibe of the fic hit the way I want it to
#i'm being careful with her characterization i'm just having to use different muscles with her#because the META of mary is interesting at least#she was pulled back from the grave as a gift for a son who she last saw when he was four years old#her sons are grown men who lived their lives as hunters#her apple pie life ended and it was her fault#john her gentle and adoring husband became a hunter to avenge her#and put her kids through hell as a result#their kids#and on top of that we also learn that she never stopped hunting#she was still hunting even after she had dean#maybe after she had sam#maybe she was hunting all the way to the end of her life#behind her family's back behind /john's/ back#what if she'd told him the truth#would things be different then#what if he hadn't needed to search for those answers#and all of that is interesting on its own but even moreso when juxtaposed with the mary who has been haunting the narrative#the mary who gave up hunting for her apple pie life so she could raise her boys to be normal#because she never wanted any of this#it's interesting!!! it has so much potential!!#mary herself is just So Very Annoying to me#she shares a lot of her interests with dean but when it comes to nature#she's far more like the careful and calculating sam#the one who measures risks and is willing to do the dreadful algebra#and again: all interesting characterization#but also very ANNOYING characterization#anyway point is i'm working on it but it does get frustrating#probably gonna send her off on the road once everything in the fic settles down so i don't have to write her more than occasionally
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tiktaalic · 5 months
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heres what we are told. in the supernatural finale.
sam (straight) gets married to a woman.
john (straight) lives with his dead wife mary
rufus (straight) lives with a woman he NEVER met while alive but is crazy hot crazy talented crazy cool and a crazy pull.
cas (gay) is rebuilding heaven with his son. this son explicitly referred to as dean's son not only in the text but in this very episode. while bobby is explaining how every other man (heterosexual) is living with a wife he also says and dean your son is here hanging out with castiel. word for word just about. sequence of events:
That kid of yours, before he went… wherever, made some changes here. Rufus lives about 5 miles that way… With Aretha. And your mom and dad… they got a place over yonder. Jack did all that? Well… Cas helped.
your kid. heterosexual man mention. heterosexual man mention. and your kid is with his other dad (gay) (your best friend) (man who you last saw when he told you he was gay and in love with you)
so it follows. if you were dean winchester . and you are prone to crushes of grandeur when you are alive. you could conceivably go. what floor the [HOT DEAD ACTRESS FROM THE 90S] on!!!!! but this is not what happens. curious . what happnes is your friend (gay) (father of your child) (you killed yourself the last time he died) gets mentioned and you crack a smile. and drive as far as you can from your father. because?
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ladylightning · 11 months
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the way the absence of john winchester haunt sam and dean in ways that are more real than any ghost they have ever faced. the way john echoes so loudly in the narrative even in episodes he’s not mentioned, in seasons where he never appears. the way john possesses dean when he’s angry and sam when he’s grieving. the way john is the one true god of the narrative, the absent father who does not answer prayers or phone calls. the righteous man who does not break in hell but breaks down and hands his child a gun. john and the memory of his holy mary. john the prophet and his sacred text. john and his prodigal son that he knows has to die. 
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