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istumpysk · 7 months

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OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont

TIER:

People's Choice! Great job on Lemongate, I feel more at ease putting my faith in you again.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Gather 'round, children. This is a fun one.

The theory:

The Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont theory suggests that they may have had one or several intimate encounters, and Tormund could potentially be the father of one or more of Maege Mormont's daughters.

The proof:

In A Storm of Swords, the character Tormund Giantsbane is introduced, and we learn his various titles, one of which is "Husband to Bears."

Mance Rayder laughed. "As you wish. Jon Snow, before you stands Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice. And here also Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts." - Jon I, ASOS

The sigil of House Mormont is a black bear. Members of the Mormont family, who hail from Bear Island, are frequently referred to as bears within the story.

The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. - Eddard II, AGOT

The maester had taught him all the banners: the mailed fist of the Glovers, silver on scarlet; Lady Mormont's black bear; the hideous flayed man that went before Roose Bolton of the Dreadfort; a bull moose for the Hornwoods; a battle-axe for the Cerwyns; three sentinel trees for the Tallharts; and the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains. - Bran VI, AGOT

"I am touched by your concern, Lord Mormont." The strong drink was making Tyrion light-headed, but not so drunk that he did not realize that the Old Bear wanted something from him. - Tyrion III, AGOT

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

"He wants you," said the She-Bear, after his third visit. Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Ser Jorah had been with her then, her gruff old bear. - Daenerys X, ADWD

Maege Mormont, the head of House Mormont, has five daughters: Dacey (now deceased), Alysane, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna.

No one knows the father of Maege's children or if she married. Yet, all her daughters bear (ha!) the Mormont surname, and none appear to be considered bastards.

The tale that's commonly told is that Lady Maege took a bear as her lover, and this bear is the father of her children.

Maege Mormont is called Mormont because no one knows her husband's name, or even if she has one. - So Spake Martin

"Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall." Mormont snorted. "My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I'd believe that before I'd believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I've not seen any giant bears." - Jon I, ACOK

"Whoever the king names will not have an easy time stepping into your armor, I can tell. Lord Mormont faces the same problem." Lord Janos looked puzzled. "I thought she was a lady. Mormont. Beds down with bears, that's the one?" - Tyrion II, ACOK

"No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

Tormund is no bear, but you might say he's built like one.

Beside the brazier, a short but immensely broad man sat on a stool, eating a hen off a skewer. Hot grease was running down his chin and into his snow-white beard, but he smiled happily all the same. Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms, and he wore a heavy shirt of black ringmail that could only have come from a dead ranger. - Jon I, ASOS

But as the distance between them diminished Jon saw that the horseman was short and broad, with gold rings glinting on thick arms and a white beard spreading out across his massive chest. - Jon X, ASOS

He was not a tall man, Tormund Giantsbane, but the gods had given him a broad chest and massive belly. - Jon XI, ADWD

In the culture of the free folk, men often "steal" women for marriage, demonstrating their strength.

We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." - Jon III, ASOS

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." - Jon III, ASOS

"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall." - Jon V, ASOS

Bear Island is a secluded island in the north, situated in the Bay of Ice. Due to frequent raids by the free folk and the ironborn, Mormont women have become fierce warriors to prevent being carried off.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. In olden days the ironmen would come raiding in their longboats, or wildlings from the Frozen Shore. The men would be off fishing, like as not. The wives they left behind had to defend themselves and their children, or else be carried off." - Catelyn V, ASOS

(map!)

Now, for the crucial evidence.

In A Storm of Swords, Jon asks Tormund about his titles. Out of all Tormund's designations, the author chooses to delve into the backstory of "Husband of Bears."

We'll dissect this story step by step. However, please remember that Tormund is known for exaggerations and fabrications. Distinguishing fact from fiction and extracting the elements of truth can be tricky.

"Are all crows so curious?" asked Tormund. "Well, here's a tale for you. It were another winter, colder even than the one I spent inside that giant, and snowing day and night, snowflakes as big as your head, not these little things. It snowed so hard the whole village was half buried. I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it. The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by, a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw. She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth. "The more I drank the more I thought about her, and the more I thought the harder me member got, till I couldn't suffer it no more. Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was. "The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Har!" He slapped a meaty thigh. "Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither." - Jon II, ASOS

I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it.

Tormund is first introduced as Mead-king of Ruddy Hall. Ruddy Hall is beyond the Wall, but we don't know where.

The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by

Regardless of where Ruddy Hall is located beyond the Wall, it wouldn't be near Maege Mormont.

a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw.

Maege Mormont is short and stout, and likely has large breasts like her daughter Alysane.

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. - Catelyn V, ASOS

She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth.

Maege Mormont has a temper,

The Old Bear sighed. "You are not the only one touched by this war. Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters." - Jon IX, AGOT

but she can also be warm.

Lady Mormont took her hand and said, "My lady, if Cersei Lannister held two of my daughters, I would have done the same." - Catelyn II, ASOS

Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found. - Catelyn V, ASOS

Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was.

If he started at Ruddy Hall, Tormund would have needed a boat to reach Maege Mormont. He couldn't have walked.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her.

Maege Mormont is a fierce warrior.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. [...]" - Catelyn V, ASOS

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. By Catelyn's lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been. - Catelyn V, ASOS

It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep.

Again, he couldn't have taken her home without a boat.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt.

She-bear has only ever been used to describe women associated with House Mormont.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

Ser Jorah sat up in his hammock. "Befriend her, then. Marry her, for all I care." That left a bad taste in his mouth as well. "Like with like, is that your notion? Do you mean to find a she-bear for yourself, ser?" - Tyrion VIII, ASOS

Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. - Jon VII, ADWD

And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods

This is a bit goofy, but a She-Bear leaving behind her pelt and wandering around bald is somewhat reminiscent of Alysane Mormont's tale about Mormont women being skinchangers.

"Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear.

Tormund seems to be suggesting that this was a one-time affair, yet he also mentions that it resulted in a pair of children. Tricky.

Lady Mormont has five children with significant age gaps. If he's their father, it would require multiple visits over several decades. If 'cub' shouldn't be plural and he's only the father of one daughter, then which one might it be?

Probably not Dacey Mormont. She was six-foot-tall, pretty, lanky, willowy, and graceful — nothing like Tormund.

The most probable candidate is Alysane Mormont. She shares a build with Tormund (and Maege), is now the heir to Bear Island, and is the most prominently featured Mormont daughter in the story.

Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither.

Sons, plural. After potentially just one encounter. That's a problem.

He might simply be referring to two of his four sons: Toregg, Torwynd, Dryn, and Dormund. Their mother's identity remains unknown.

However, while Maege Mormont has no sons, she does have five daughters with impressively strong characters who comfortably take on traditionally masculine roles.

Stout, grey-haired Maege Mormont, dressed in mail like a man, told Robb bluntly that he was young enough to be her grandson, and had no business giving her commands … but as it happened, she had a granddaughter she would be willing to have him marry. - Bran VI, AGOT

Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. - Jon IX, AGOT

One of his companions was even a woman: Dacey Mormont, Lady Maege's eldest daughter and heir to Bear Island, a lanky six-footer who had been given a morningstar at an age when most girls were given dolls. Some of the other lords muttered about that, but Catelyn would not listen to their complaints. - Catelyn X, AGOT

"I have fought beside the Young Wolf in every battle," Dacey Mormont said cheerfully. "He has not lost one yet." - Catelyn V, ASOS

Smalljon Umber and Robin Flint sat near Robb, to the other side of Fair Walda and Alyx, respectively. Neither of them was drinking; along with Patrek Mallister and Dacey Mormont, they were her son's guards this evening. - Catelyn VII, ASOS

Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. Even in sleep she wore ringmail under her furs, boiled leather under that, and an old sheepskin under the leather, turned inside out for warmth. All those layers made her look almost as wide as she was tall. And ferocious. Sometimes it was hard for Asha Greyjoy to remember that she and the She-Bear were almost of an age. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." - Jon I, ADWD

But again, there are age gaps between all of them, and this would necessitate multiple trips to Bear Island.

Other things to consider:

It's possible that Tormund's She-Bear is actually Alysane Mormont, who has a son and a daughter and also asserts that their father is a bear. However, considering Alysane's age (mid-twenties), it seems more plausible that the She-Bear is Maege.

Some people believe the title "Breaker of Ice" might allude to the Bay of Ice, but that's a stretch.

Tormund has five other children, and he seems to be actively involved in their lives.

Alysane Mormont is currently headed to Castle Black, so there might be more clues ahead.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Maege Mormont being carried off by Tormund, only to rise in the middle of the night and take herself back home, is one of the more amusing tales I can think of. I mean, if you ignore the rape part.

Truly, I don't even know what tier to put this in. There are so many issues with that story, but given Tormund's nature, it's hard to discern what's real from what's not.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Theon's bastard

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 14 #tormund giantsbane x maege mormont

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starwarsprincess1986 · 1 year

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You know nothing, Jon Snow

For @nattyslove22

Ygritte is NOT the only character that can rightly be associated with “you know nothing”.

We associate that line with Ygritte ALONE because she says it ALOT! But this might not be the only person that Jon has heard these words from, behind the scenes, and how Ygritte’s words are a reminder of someone, or someones, that could very well have said it to him too. (Just because we don’t get a POV narrative doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. There are MANY clues regarding other characters that we don’t get all the information about, but we get hints everywhere!

So “You know nothing, Jon Snow” are words he very possibly could have heard from Catelyn, the ONLY mother figure he’s ever really known (and he desired motherly affection from) and from Sansa, a sister who tries to live up to the image of her mother. The two most important feminine figures in Jon Snow’s life.

An interesting thing is that we see Catelyn Stark use this phrase in ACOK before we ever hear it from Ygritte in ASOS.

Here is the one from Catelyn Stark:

[She opened her hands to look down at the scars across her fingers. His dagger’s marks, she reminded herself. His dagger, in the hand of the killer he paid to open Bran’s throat. Though the dwarf denied it, to be sure. Even after Lysa locked him in one of her sky cells and threatened him with her moon door, he had still denied it. “He lied,” she said, rising abruptly. “The Lannisters are liars every one, and the dwarf is the worst of them. The killer was armed with his own knife.” Ser Cleos stared. “I know nothing of any—”

“You know nothing,” she agreed, sweeping from the cell. Brienne fell in beside her, silent.]

-Catelyn ACOK chapter 45

But the most interesting thing is, the FIRST time we see Ygritte says these words, they are in a different order, AND they are the chapter JUST before Sansa’s chapter where she is thinking these words.

The FIRST we see Ygritte say it, she says Jon Snow’s name first. ALL the other times AFTERWARDS she says his name last.

[“Are all crows afraid of gooseprickles? A little ice won’t kill you. I’ll jump in with you t’prove it so.” “And ride the rest of the day with wet clothes frozen to our skins?” he objected. “Jon Snow, you know nothing. You don’t go in with clothes.” “I don’t go in at all,” he said firmly, just before he heard Tormund Thunderfist bellowing for him (he hadn’t, but never mind).]

-Jon II ASOS

THE VERY NEXT CHAPTER is Sansa’s POV:

[“Alyn said her favor made him fearless,” said Megga. “He says he shouted her name for his battle cry, isn’t that ever so gallant? Someday I want some champion to wear my favor, and kill a hundred men.” Elinor told her to hush, but looked pleased all the same. They are children, Sansa thought. They are silly little girls, even Elinor. They’ve never seen a battle, they’ve never seen a man die, they know nothing. Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her father’s head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.”]

-Sansa II ASOS

Do you think it a coincidence that the the very first time we see Ygritte use these words, it is immediately followed by Sansa thinking the same words? Nope. It’s not coincidence.

It gives a whole other perspective to Jon’s thoughts before he gets stabbed near the end of ADWD.

[Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … ‘]

~ Jon XIII, ADWD chapter 69

1. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. (This is Jon’s last memory of Robb, when they said farewell before Jon left for the Wall. The last time he saw Robb)

-Kill the boy and let the man be born.

(Jon is associating Aemon’s words with his last memory of Robb. Why? This is why I think he does:

“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time......Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

-Jon II ADWD

2. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. (Here Jon doesn’t have ANY thoughts he associates with Bran)

3. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. (Again, no thoughts in connection to Rickon.)

But then:

4. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

(Why does Jon associate Ygritte’s words with Sansa? Curiouser and curiouser...)

Followed by:

5. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest.

-I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

(These are the words from the Pink Letter from Ramsay Bolton who married fArya. Direct connection/association with his thoughts of Arya.)

But, isn’t it Arya who Ygritte reminded him of? Not Sansa. Or is the reader missing all the subtleties of how Ygritte actually reminds Jon of Sansa, he just doesn’t mention her name in his thoughts? Ygritte’s singing, and tears, and weeping, and her red hair kissed by fire, these are all things that are associated with Sansa’s character!)

Here are some book quotes:

[One was asleep, curled up tight and buried beneath a great mound of skins. Jon could see nothing of him but his hair, bright red in the firelight.

On the ground the sleeper sat up beneath his furs. Jon slid his dirk free, grabbing the man by the hair and jamming the point of the knife up under his chin as he reached for his—no, her—His hand froze. “A girl.”

He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t? “I yield.” Her words steamed in the cold air. “You’re our captive, then.” He pulled the dirk away from the soft skin of her throat.]

-Jon ACOK chapter 51

[Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he’d thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.]

-Jon ACOK chapter 51

[“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft … the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.]

-Catelyn ACOK chapter 55

‘The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte’s hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons.

At a lord’s court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he’d seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat. Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn’t seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling … well, that stirred some things as well.

-Jon II ASOS

She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

Do you know ‘The Last of the Giants’?” Without waiting for an answer Ygritte said, “You need a deeper voice than mine to do it proper.” Then she sang, “Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth.

Tormund Giantsbane heard the words and grinned. “The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth,” he bellowed back through the snow. Longspear Ryk joined in, singing, “Oh, the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.” “And they’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills,” Ygritte and Tormund sang back at him in turn, in suitably gigantic voices.

There were tears on Ygritte’s cheeks when the song ended. “Why are you weeping?” Jon asked. “It was only a song. There are hundreds of giants, I’ve just seen them.” “Oh, hundreds,” she said furiously. “You know nothing, Jon Snow..”

-Jon II ASOS

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard’s motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he’d lost. When a man of the Night’s Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

-Jon III ASOS

She bit his neck and he nuzzled hers, burying his nose in her thick red hair. Lucky, he thought, she is lucky, fire-kissed. “Isn’t that good?” she whispered as she guided him inside her.

-Jon III ASOS

“There’s naught to eat in the dark but flesh,” she whispered, biting at his neck. Jon nuzzled her hair and filled his nose with the smell of her. “You sound like Old Nan, telling Bran a monster story.”

-Jon III ASOS

“Were you a maid?” Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. “I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?” “Who was he?” “A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.” “It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways. She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?” “Longspear’s not your brother.” “He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow.”

-Jon III ASOS

“Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.”

-Arya I AGOT

He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. Ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he’d hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal.

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.

-Jon III ACOK

So:

Jon thinks that Ygritte reminds him of Arya because of her stubbornness and her tangled hair, and how skinny she is, but the things that Jon likes most about Ygritte is her singing, her tears, and he thinks of her red hair on multiple occasions. There really isn’t anything else that sticks out to him besides these three things during the time he is with the wildlings.

Ygritte =Arya= tangled hair, skinny, stubborn

When they looked nothing alike.

But on an unconscious level:

Ygritte =Sansa= singing, tears, red hair

These are what Jon fell in love with. The ONLY things that stirred him.

He thinks of Sansa singing while she brushes Lady’s fur. Then, you know nothing...

#jonsa #you no nothing jon snow #jonsa meta

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agentrouka-blog · 2 years

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Reminder that book!Jon is a wee baby and a child until late into ADWD.

First of all, he is a late bloomer.

Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay. (AGOT, Jon I)

And he knows it.

"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle." (AGOT, Jon I)

Everyone can see it:

Tyrion sighed. "You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?"

"Fourteen," the boy said. (AGOT, Tyrion II)

He is shorter than Todder at first, but a fierce little guy.

Grenn loomed over him, thick of neck and red of face, with three of his friends behind him. He knew Todder, a short ugly boy with an unpleasant voice. (...) Grenn was sixteen and a head taller than Jon. All four of them were bigger than he was, but they did not scare him. He'd beaten every one of them in the yard. (AGOT, Jon III)

He is too short for Longclaw.

The Old Bear seemed pleased by that. "I suppose they do. You'll want to wear that over the shoulder, I imagine. It's too long for the hip, at least until you've put on a few inches." (AGOT, Jon VIII)

And still not bearded at age 15:

Tormund Thunderfist cracked a gap-toothed smile. "He asked me if that was my daughter riding there beside me, with her smooth pink cheeks." (ASOS, Jon I)

Okay, wait, sorry, he has to shave once in a blue moon:

He had not shaved since leaving the Fist of the First Men, and the hair on his lip was soon stiff with frost. (ACOK, Jon VI)

This was weeks after leaving the Fist, mind. And it is the ONLY reference to Jon shaving, EVER. Beardless, smooth-cheeked baby.

Much like another kid who is taken advantage of by an older woman.

Lancel had thick sandy hair, green Lannister eyes, and a line of soft blond fuzz on his upper lip. At sixteen, he was cursed with all the certainty of youth (...). (ACOK, Tyrion VI)

And much unlike Robb:

Her son's beard had grown in redder than his auburn hair. Robb seemed to think it made him look fierce, royal . . . older. But bearded or no, he was still a youth of fifteen, and wanted vengeance no less than Rickard Karstark. (ACOK, Catelyn I)

So let's remember that Jon not only is only 15, he looks younger than his age when an 18/19-year-old predator decides to take advantage of him.

By ADWD, Jon still wears Longclaw on his back....

Jon Snow reached back and pulled Longclaw from his sheath. (ADWD, Jon VII)

... however, it may just be habit by then, because he may have had a growth spurt in the intervening months!

Half a foot taller than Jon, the Braavosi sported a beard as thin as a rope sprouting from his chin and reaching almost to his waist. (ADWD, Jon IX)

Tycho is half a foot taller than 16-year-old smooth-cheeked Jon. Why does it matter?

Then the queen beckoned to another curious member of her entourage: a tall gaunt stick of a man, his height accentuated by an outlandish three-tiered hat of purple felt. "And here we have the honorable Tycho Nestoris, an emissary of the Iron Bank of Braavos, come to treat with His Grace King Stannis." (ADWD, Jon IX)

"I did, ser." The speaker came forward on his garron. He was very tall, very thin, so long-legged that it was a wonder his feet did not drag along the ground. (...)

The tall man slid gracefully from his garron, removed his peculiar hat, and bowed. "I have the honor to be Tycho Nestoris, a humble servant of the Iron Bank of Braavos." (ADWD, The Sacrifice)

THREE separate mentions of how tall Tycho is and a direct comparison to Jon. Half a foot shorter than a Very Tall Man? Jon??

Is someone finally growing into his sword while approaching his 17th birthday?

Still beardless, though. Baby. In spite of his elected office, Jon is a teenager and he looks it.

#jon snow #height #short king not so short?#grrm what is the truth?#character ages

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