#we have a clear idea of just Susie from the games?

[chloesimaginationthings]

I’m really curious how you would draw the Five Missing Children.

Technically I’ve drawn them! Only the movie versions though, sometime I’ll do the game ones too!

#ask reply #tbh it would be a lot of fun to design them #we have a clear idea of just Susie from the games? #and maybe Cassidy but that was never confirmed #So yeah sometime I’ll draw them! #I want to draw Charlie first though #I have a design for her ready #I STILL love this piece btw #think it’s one of my best fnaf comics still #these poor kids deserved better #btw the extra three is a young Vanessa / Mike and Abby

[star-light-shadows]

A comprehensive explanation of why I think Suselle will likely not happen and Kriselle is the true end-game pairing.

I personally do think there's a pretty strong chance of them falling through in the end. While I do think that they are far from the most interesting pairing possible, it isn't solely because of that. There are a lot of details that to me suggest that they are not truly meant for each other like it may immediately seem. And Noelle's "romantic destiny" may actually fall to someone else.

Starting with major details that strongly suggest the pairing isn't going down without a hitch, Susie is very strongly suggested to only be interested in Noelle as a friend. The character teas tell us that Susie feels equally for Kris, Noelle, and Ralsei, and while you could say that this is before the Ferris wheel ride, even after that in the chapter epilogue, when talking about bringing Ralsei or Noelle to the fair, she says that Kris would obviously be there, not getting/caring about the concept of how dates work. By all means it seems like Susie just wants to have friends. Frankly there's a massive chance with how she's portrayed that she's AroAce.

Even bigger than that, tho, is how Suselle is pretty clearly portrayed parallel to Kris x Ralsei, and there is some pretty damn obvious lore that makes it very clear that Kralsei is not going to turn into a proper end-game pairing, even being describable as a downright weird ship on-par with pseudo-incest. So if Kralsei is seemingly being pushed by the game, but is most likely going to fall apart at some point, I feel it's incredibly likely that Suselle is too.

In fact, while I wouldn't go nearly as far as to say that it's toxic, I think this comparison shows that we shouldn't shy away from acknowledging that some aspects of Suselle as it's been presented may be unconducive to the two being in a proper romantic relationship.

The biggest thing that leads me to think these two aren't end-game material is that there are a lot of details that suggest to me that Noelle's crush on Susie is best described as "misplaced."

The primary target of Noelle's attraction for Susie is very often displayed as being for things that Susie simply isn't beyond the surface. She simps for Susie as a rough and mean bully who slams people into lockers and would push her over before laughing at her. A presentation that Chapter 1 thoroughly establishes as being a defense mechanism, not what Susie is really like. And she's the one person Susie wouldn't bully anyway as a result of the Pencil thing, something Noelle has to be told. Noelle doesn't want/expect Susie to soften up to her at all.

The other half of how her feelings for Susie are presented is basically the part of her that admires Susie for what she wishes she had. Being brave, unafraid to break the rules, generally being strong. And while that's all fine and dandy for a romantic relationship on its own, Romantic feelings that consist of that and thinking they're hot for reasons that aren't actually true, when put together create a situation that can only be described as Noelle having a crush on the IDEA of Susie, rather than who Susie actually is.

Now I don't expect this to turn into something toxic or obsessive, quite the opposite, I expect this to be something Noelle will begin to realize as her crush on Susie begins to actually FADE the closer she gets to Susie. (Something Susie will be totally fine with because she just wants to have friends.)

So who else would be Noelle's romantic interest? Well, I was talking before about me not thinking Suselle is interesting, and while that's still not my main argument, I think it's important to explain a little of why. Noelle and Susie seems painfully bland as a pairing to me mainly because it doesn't feel like it brings anything out of the two characters. Whether romantic or not, the best relationships between two characters are going to bring out the best parts of the two characters. Both in the realistic-romantic-viability sense and in the character-writing sense.

While they might not be romantic, an example of this I'd like to bring up is Susie and Ralsei. Their personalities complement each other perfectly to the point where they bring out each other's best qualities. Susie is snarky and crude and her love language is largely comprised of playful teasing, but is also very empathetic with a big heart. Ralsei is kind and tolerant of others, making him the perfect "victim" for Susie's love language, but is noticeably lacking in empathy. Ralsei makes Susie more open to affection while Susie teaches Ralsei to be more assertive. Ralsei acts as the voice of reason, but in emotionally charged situations Susie makes up for Ralsei's lack of empathy. Plus, Susie is the one Lightner who doesn't see Ralsei's similarity to Asriel, likely being the one person who sees Ralsei as his own person, something Ralsei has been shown to struggle with himself.

Not dissimilar to this, there's one character that consistently brings out the best pieces of Noelle's character. And it's Kris.

Noelle's whole arc in Chapter 2 is about becoming mentally and emotionally stronger, right? Well, while most gravitate to connecting this to Noelle's admiration of Susie, when you look at how this arc actually plays out in the story narratively and mechanically, It's actually Kris that has this affect on Noelle. We see her boldness stat go up as we trek across the Cyber world with just her and Kris. She becomes bolder as a result of fighting alongside Kris and enduring their playful pranks. Noelle may admire Susie for her strength, but being around Kris is what brought that strength out of Noelle. (As well as her playful and goofy side.)

This deep effect Kris has on Noelle is the entire basis of the Snowgrave route, just twisted and warped. So isn't it interesting that this corrupted version of Noelle and Kris's relationship is multiple times characterized as an abusive romantic relationship?

Plus, in the epilogue of the Snowgrave route, despite everything that the player, through Kris, did, she monologues about how she wants to investigate what's going on with Kris, knowing that something is wrong, that the friend she knew would never do what happened, and vowing to figure it out and help Kris. Showing an incredible level of personal dedication.

Kris and Noelle go through a lot of interpersonal development in chapter 2, significantly more than Noelle and Susie do. Kris knew Noelle as a close friend in the past, but they seem to have had some kind of falling out. Despite this falling out and an air of emotional uncertainty around the two, several key moments with Noelle make it explicitly clear that Noelle deeply longs/longed to be close with Kris again.

"Yep! That's right! We're friends!" (It's. . . surprisingly nice just hearing Kris say that.) (Kris hasn't given me a gift like this. . . since we were little kids. . . Are they saying they want things to go back to. . .)

The "dating shoes" dialogue is especially interesting with this context, as it almost makes it seem like there are deep feelings between the two that even They don't understand.

And Kris brings out by far the deepest pieces of Noelle's character, even by her own direct admission. Her conversation with Kris late into Cyber City brings her history with Dess to the table, one of the more narratively interesting parts of her character, and at the end She says

(Kris is the only one who knows how weird I am.) (It's not fair, y'know!? Everyone knows how weird YOU are. Fahahaha.)

Simultaneously saying Kris is the only one who understands her, and that she truly likes Kris's open weirdness, to the point of believing it to be admirable rather than to be ashamed of. (Which honestly is probably something Kris needs to hear.)

While this may be venturing a little into fan-fictiony territory, Kris and Susie are superficially similar enough that I wouldn't doubt that her crush on Susie somehow stemmed off of her feelings for Kris in Kris's absence.

Overall, there's just a lot going on between Kris and Noelle that suggests something deeper than just friendship. Romantic undertones, estranged but longing to be together, bringing out the deepest pieces of each other, knowing each other better than anyone else. . . Unlike her crush on Susie, being based on a defense mechanism, Noelle likes Kris for who Kris is, even more than Kris themselves.

They're practically the perfect couple, only in the making.

Childhood friends to lovers is a common trope, and it's very characteristic of this game's emotional complexity to have two who've drifted apart be the ones destined to be. Not every love story is as simple as "Immediate crushing -> Confession -> Dating."

#deltarune #noelle holiday #noelle deltarune #kris x noelle #noelle x kris #kriselle #kris deltarune #kris dreemurr #anti-suselle

[valleyfthdolls]

Movie!Cassidy is an Afton - an entirely speculative theory

(CW FOR DISCUSSION OF CANON TYPICAL HARM AGAINST CHILDREN)

A starting note

I do believe our little boy in Golden Freddy is named Cassidy, because Cassidy in the game universe is not confirmed female. Again I remind you all that Scott does not confirm fuck about these games. Fans have a tendency to claim their headcanons or whatever new fanon theories get popular have been confirmed to be canon. This is basically never true. Look at the semi-recent "Gregory is Scott's favorite" ordeal for an idea of how this information is shared in good faith and gets twisted nonetheless. Look at the comments under a fnaf au gacha life video for an idea of how people just straight up lie about that.

Cassidy in the games refers to himself as "he" and "him", we never see his physical appearance enough to make any judgment calls on his gender- any idea of his appearance is totally speculative, just like this theory- and most importantly, Cassidy is not exclusively a girls' name- it's actually a unisex name that started as a masculine one! It derives from the Irish surname Caiside, then became a masculine forename, then as it became anglicized as Cassidy it became unisex. In both modern day and the 80s, it is and was applicable as a boys' name.

Now, with that in mind, on to actual discussion of the Afton theory, and why I think movie Cassidy is one.

They look strikingly similar

Compare, for a moment, the appearances of Vanessa, William, and Cassidy. I'm using pictures of their actors because the pictures of them I could find online SUCKED.

William: Light skin, straight(?) brown hair, blue eyes. Vanessa: Light skin, straight blonde hair (though it's wavy in this picture, it's definitely straight for Vanessa), blue/maybe green eyes. Cassidy: Light skin, straight blonde hair, blue eyes.

The movie does suggest that Vanessa colors her hair blonde from brown (see: the brown roots), however, when she shows the photo of her childhood self and her father off to Mike, young Vanessa clearly has blonde hair as well.

And notably, her roots are just as blonde, suggesting that blonde was her natural hair color, but that it darkened as she got older, only for her to begin bleaching it back to its original color.

Now, blonde hair and blue/green eyes are both quite rare, but not rare enough that it's a dead ringer for a genetic connection. Hell, the Chica girl has blonde hair and blue eyes. However, Susie in the games has blonde hair and blue eyes, and Cassidy in the games very clearly has brown, and likely dark hair as well.

This makes the change to blonde with blue eyes very noticeable, and very noteworthy. And it’s a set of traits that he shares with Vanessa, as well as the notable blue eyes with William, as well as appearing to have a similar face shape.

Cassidy is inexplicably special

Cassidy is the first person who shares the image of Afton as Spring Bonnie with Mike when asked about who took Garrett. He seems more aware than anyone else of William, Garrett, William’s crimes, and what they’re doing.

When Mike asks who took Garrett, Cassidy responds by drawing a rabbit in the dirt- Spring Bonnie. (I will come back to this momentarily.) While the other kids believe Spring Bonnie is their friend, Cassidy seems to know the truth. He knows Garrett is dead, and offers Mike the chance to essentially see his ghost in exchange for Abby.

Furthermore, Cassidy doesn’t ever attack Abby, he doesn’t respond when William tells the children to wake up and go after her, and most interestingly-

Look at this image.

When Abby shows the missing kids what happened to them (in a scene I actually loved, btw, and I will take absolutely no criticism), you can see Jeremy in blue, Gabriel in the top hat, Fritz with the hook hand, Susie with long blonde hair, and… what I believe might actually be Garrett with dark hair and a red shirt. Because one thing is clear- that is not Cassidy.

Cassidy is not being controlled. He is fully aware, and he is angry. Hell, if you listen to his tone when he says “we want Abby,” it’s angry. Forceful. “We. Want. Abby.”

Again, Cassidy knows what is happening. He is angry and vengeful, and he’s the only one. So… why?

Well, honestly, this was my big qualm with the movie. Why was Cassidy special? In my eyes, there are four answers to this. He has a direct connection to William, a direct connection to Fazbear, a direct connection to every missing child that is unique to him, or he was the first or last of the missing kids. These would all set him apart. But we have no reason to believe he has a connection to FE, he was the fourth of the five missing kids as seen in the opening, and it seemed like the five of them were a group of friends. So what makes him special? He obviously knows or has something that sets him apart.

The imagery

Let me rewind now to when Mike first gets his answer about who took Garrett. He finds Cassidy in the woods and asks him for help remembering Garrett’s kidnapper. Cassidy responds by showing Mike a drawing of Spring Bonnie. Again, he knows that Spring Bonnie is evil, but more importantly here, he knows that Spring Bonnie took Garrett. Now, there are three ways he could know. One, process of elimination- the rabbit took him, so it took Garrett too. Two, assuming a relation to Afton, he saw or knew when this happened. Three, it was a matter of association.

Well, I actually doubt it was either of the first two. (You will see why this is not self contradictory in a second.) One, if it was because Spring Bonnie took Cassidy, well, Mike asked about Garrett, not Cassidy. For someone as obviously aware as Cassidy is, this is an obvious logical gap I doubt he’d make.

Two, Vanessa- Afton’s known daughter- didn’t know what happened to Garrett. When Mike asked- "asked"- if she knew, she said "not about Garrett." And while we don't have a clear timeline here (thanks Vanessa for your very ambiguous "in the 80s, kids went missing", we. we know), this was likely Afton's first kill. Meaning Cassidy was even younger then than he was when he died.

So, what do I mean by "it was a matter of association"? And how is this not self contradictory?

Well, assuming Cassidy didn't just. know Afton did it, what might have happened instead actually works even better with the idea that he knew Afton.

Compare the imagery here to that of the photo Vanessa shows Mike.

Spring Bonnie and the toy plane. If he saw Spring Bonnie and Vanessa with Garrett’s toy, seeing Garrett with that toy, he could assume that Spring Bonnie got it from him. Therefore, Garrett was taken by Spring Bonnie- Vanessa and Cassidy’s dad in the costume.

Their relationship

This one I’ll keep short. We only see Cassidy and William interact once. And it’s a very bizarre scene.

William is struggling, clinging to life, and Cassidy is standing, watching. Someone else said he was crying here, but I didn’t see it. Maybe, maybe not. I’m leaving that there. Either way, William reaches out to Cassidy, seemingly for help, and Cassidy shuts the door on him.

Watching the movie back and realizing Cassidy was never under William’s influence, this scene is… confusing, to say the least. Why would William reach for the help of the one child who was never under his thumb? What is he trying to appeal to? And why does Cassidy get the moment of being the one to shut the door on him?

Well, it’s obvious to see through Vanessa and the four missing children under his control that he is very clearly abusive to his children. Which isn’t a surprise to most, but anyway. Through the few minutes he and Vanessa are together, he berates her, strangles her, stabs her in the stomach and leaves her for dead, and Mike remarks that William “really messed [her] up”. He similarly berates and insults the missing kids, calling them pathetic and small. At the same time, however, he relies on his children to back him up. Vanessa is supposed to keep Mike from knowing anything and kill him if he gets too close. The animatronics are supposed to kill children and adults alike on his command. He leans on them. They are supposed to back him up.

And this would extend even to the one who he never controlled entirely if Cassidy was his son. His daughter let him down. His victims turned on him. But he still has one child left who hasn’t let him down. One who wasn’t there for him, but should be. Because that is the job of William’s children.

He reaches for Cassidy, the boy shuts the door on his murderer. The man who abused, betrayed, and slaughtered him all while he was meant to be his dad. William’s son is not going to clean up his messes now. He’s going to make him pay for them.

(ENDING DISCLAIMER THAT THIS IS ALL SPECULATION! I know there are many other explanations. This is just the one I like and I wanted to share it!)

#fnaf #five nights at freddy's #fnaf movie #fnaf cassidy #cassidy afton #william afton #fnaf spoilers #fnaf theory #fnaf movie theory #fnaf movie thoughts #maybe one day I’ll make a post like this #about why I think game cassidy is an Afton (SPECIFICALLY THE CRYING CHILD BUT THATS ANOTHER TOPIC FOR ANOTHER DAYSKFJDJFH)

[agentravensong]

Why Kris Does (and Can't) Play the Piano

Something I've been thinking about for a little while is why Kris can't play the hospital piano when given the prompt by the Soul/Player.

My assumption from back in the days of Chapter 1 was that it was simply a byproduct of the possession, that something about the way Kris is being controlled keeps them from being able to play properly. But the more I've thought about it, the less sense it makes. It's not as if we're given an interface like with the piano in UnderTale that would limit Kris to pressing one key at a time, it's a yes or no input. And think of all the things Kris can do in battle in response to a one or two-word prompt given by us. Like with dialogue choices, the Soul may give Kris the basic command, but they're free, to a certain extent, to interpret and embellish upon it. Why would piano be any different? They should be free to play whatever they want.

For a lot of people, the kris_dreemurr_kris page complicated this question further. Does pianpian's complexity and subjective beauty prove that Kris can actually play piano, or does its chaotic nature with a lack of a clear melody prove that they don't actually know how? Or, does the fact that they go to play it after getting a look like they're "remembering something" suggest that the piano skill was never theirs at all?

For me, kris_dreemurr_kris provides an answer.

Specifically, thanks to this bit:

Kris doesn't want Noelle to watch them playing piano. Whether because they're still learning and get somewhat embarrassed by it, or because they just want it to be a private thing, they don't want an active audience.

Now, we don't know exactly how much time has passed between this blog post and the events of the game, but, based on the first line of the page ("there was a time when they were coming over almost every day"), it's been a little while since Kris began this piano ritual. We don't know how good they've gotten at it since then, but based on the harsh look they give Susie when she teases them for not being able to actually play piano, I'd wager a guess that they've gotten good enough that their pride was hurt by such a comment.

But if Kris can play, why don't they?

Because it's something they do for themself. Music, after all, is a form of self-expression.

And whether or not they'd be willing to let Susie be an audience to it, it can't be Kris's genuine self-expression when they're not fully themself. When someone else is making them do it (even if they would have full control over the actual playing). It has to be their choice.

So they flub it on purpose. A dissonant chord that gets across the idea "oh, they can't play anything better than this", and thereby lets them back away. And as much as they hate how it leads Susie to the incorrect conclusion, they'd rather that than play wonderfully when a) there's the risk of her later finding out about the possession and attributing their piano skill to their possessor, or, just, b) it can't be genuinely theirs.

Now, as far as why Kris gets that strange look of remembrance on their face before going to play Noelle's piano... That's where we get more into out-there theory territory.

I don't think that Kris is being possessed at those moments - not in the way we currently understand it, at least. While it does seem likely that there's been something fucky with their Soul for a good while now that got them to have a routine for taking it out, the look Noelle describes them having in these moments doesn't seem to match up with how the possession has been described to affect Kris. The nurse in the hospital says in Chapter 1 that they look a little sick, and when Noelle in post-Snowgrave describes how Kris is acting weird, she says they've only been acting strange "recently". If Kris was being possessed pre-Chapter 1, it was a possession of a significantly different kind (and I have to wonder why such a possessor would be taking them away from their time with Noelle to play piano, and why they would force Kris to stop the second they're observed).

So if it isn't that... what is it?

Perhaps it has to do with a secret in pianpian itself. As @gasterofficial discovered, with some audio editing, you can hear a scratching sound in there. If that sounds familiar, it should:

Perhaps Kris's playing of the piano is an attempt to reach out to someone - or, more in line with the way they'd leave Noelle so abruptly to start playing, to reciprocate their communication. Whether that be with the person doing the scratching, or the person in the code who also hears the scratching. If you're still fond of the possession idea in this context, you could even argue that they're channeling that person in these moments.

As far as who that person is... what characters do we know of currently who are missing, possibly trapped in the code/void... and are musicians, making it more likely that their messages would be communicated in a musical form?

Or, to put it another way: if Noelle isn't the one who plays the piano in her house... who might that have been?

#deltarune #spamton sweepstakes #kris dreemurr #december holiday #(that's who i was alluding to at the end if you didn't click the links) #it's also possible if we go with the idea that people's memories of dess got fucked with when she disappeared #that kris actually is 'remembering' something in these moments - like songs she used to play #also while i'm here: #the reason i personally am not as much a fan of the idea that it's kris's possessor actually playing the piano #is because i want the playing to be theirs #that's just me though

[silicon14blog]

I know I am maybe over thinking this but, why was the "Lancer Spin" sprites from the Spamton Sweepstakes made?

I mean it could have been done for a one off gag, but I still feel like there has to be a sightly bigger reason to use it instead of the standard Lancer sprite. Most of the pages in the sweepstakes had a purpose, with even some of the more jokey pages having some meaning. The Ice-e cryptid page at first reads like a humorous account of an event in Noelle's childhood, but the page it links (or at least tries to link) has serious implications about Dess's role in the plot. The "Creepy" Spamton plush page is later used in the Livestream Finale. The blog page with Berdly exist to give characterization. Every other page is either lore, or sneak peaks and/or links to another page that does. Even the page with the gumball machine might mean something. The only two I can think that doesn't fit are the Inu page (though this likely just Toby referencing himself), the pips page, and the Lancer page, or so we think. There are certain things about this sprite that has gotten me thinking

At first I thought it could have been for background tiling purposes (the sprite has an even 1:1 ratio and is easily distinguable, making it ideal instead of Lancer's default sprite), but the page the weather duo/Elnino & Lanina page's background gif is not exactly even, and it is clear that these are these are their default sprites, so that theory was thrown out, and so I started to think about a reason outside of the website for these to be made.

Second, I thought these might fill in the similar roles the plush sprites were made, cute little versions of the characters that can be given to them or be put in their room, which is seen to be the case with both Berdly and Susie respectively, though Ralsei's and Noelle's go unused. However looking at them side by side show that these are clearly in two different styles (sorry for the low quality, only image I could easily find)

The plushies have a soild black outline with the their respective character's color palettes, but Lancer's has a colored outline with a more "pastel" palette. Not only that, but lancer is forward facing, with additional sprites to convey the spin. So that idea was thrown out. So where does that leaves us? Well I have two additional ideas about what it could be used for, with one being a bit of an extension of the other, though, this "extended" version of the idea I don't really like because it looks into Toby Fox media that isn't directly related to Deltarune.

One, The Sprite was made for a retro 8-BIT NES/Retro Gaming section. The sprite's palette is similar/close to that of an actual NES palette (example)

We can see Lancer's palette here is possibly based off the NES palette, or at least invoke it. Not only that, but Lancer's sprite fits cleanly into a 16x16 area, the size that many sprites took during this era (think: Mario's NES sprite before going super). There are some stuff that could also point to this being used in a NES inspired area. One of UT/DR's inspirations is Yume Nikki, whose most famous influence is probably the appearance of the Mystery Man sprite, with one thing that game has are sections called the "Famicom Worlds," Places that not only use an NES/FC tileset and sprites but also change the UI to match. I bring the UI bit up because, remember, Lancer is part of our Key Items, meaning it's possible while in an NES section, Lancer, either in the overworld or in our inventory, uses this sprite.

Okay, but why would there be a NES section/world? Well, there is already TWO possibilies. While Dragon Blazers is the most notable and talked about example, which I will talk about soon, it should be noted most people forget that Kris and Asriel own a console alongside a copy of the game Cat Petterz RPG, and we know that Dark Fountain is located in the Dreemurr's household, so there is that possibility. Of course, the reason people go with Dragon Blazers is due to the fact that Noelle describes the DR battle system as being like that game and there is a lot of references to that game in both the game and in the Spamton Sweepstakes (with the ice maze being a more famous example). Of course, we don't know what Dragon Blazers looks like, right? Well.....

(DISCLAIMER: I PERSONALLY do not believe Skies Forever Blue is Connected to Deltarune beside themes Toby has used in a majority of his works, but I am including it here because I know it will be brought up)

...here is that idea I said I didn't like. It's been theorized that Dragon Blazers is the game in Skies Forever Blue, since both Noelle's version and the game in the Music Video are shown to be handheld, UTDR and the game in the video having RPG deconstructionist themes, and the fact the only fight we see in the MV is of a dragon. Regardless weather or not you believe it is, I will take a look at the boy and girl sprites we see in the video and see if they match up with this Lancer sprite.

Okay so right of the bat both sprites have a similar pastel/NES color palette, colored outlines, and a use the same perspectives. But, the Lancer sprite's outline has a couple of different of colors, though you could argue the (blue) boy's headband and hair are similar to lancer's hand and head outline in the sprite. Like I said, I don't personally believe Skies Forever Blue is connected to Deltarune, but just wanted to included it here.

In Conclusion: Lancer's spin sprite from the Spamton Sweepstakes is going to be use in an NES/retro gaming inspired section in a future chapter. Of course, this is assuming that this sprite was not for a one-off gag, which it might, and also assuming we are getting said NES section, that could either be Cat Petterz RPG, Dragon Blazers, or both. Sorry if this post is long but I had this on my mind recently and wanted to get it out, and I would love to hear any arguments and evidence for or against this.

#deltarune #lancer #deltarune theory #theory #speculation #spamton sweepstakes #long post

[sweatertheman]

okay look i know its in bad taste to spend this long dogging on other people's ships but i've just been having a lot of thoughts about this today.

the idea that suselle is a foregone conclusion is stupid! and that's not because toby fox is just trolling, he's not that dense to pull a pointless bait and switch. its stupid because part of deltarune's narrative is about narrative, and about predestiny! beads on rails, puppets on strings, dark worlds as fiction, all this!

like, let me use my ralsology degree to paint a picture for you here. ralsei, as a symbol, represents traditional RPG stuff. he's been suckered into a worldview where darkners are NPCs, less than people, and ultimately exist to serve both the player characters and the broader narrative. his perception of right and wrong is childish, and he offers simple-minded platitudes as explanations. ralsei believes that everything they do is predestined to some degree, that while they can change how they act and how others feel about them, their relationships, their arcs, their battles, these are all laid out in advance.

and he's wrong about all of it.

darkners are very much people with intricate personal lives, hopes and dreams, complex motivations behind their actions. right and wrong is more complex than, well, right and wrong, and their quest is very much not predetermined, as we can see on snowgrave.

what's more, deltarune's narrative seems to be about how ralsei is wrong. with the secret bosses, and the beads on rails and all that stuff. kris is an unwilling protagonist being forced down a path they don't want to go down. darkners are shown to be people, and yet it seems like the DELTA WARRIORS will be forced to treat them like they aren't. susie herself rejects every narrative and gameplay convention ralsei lays out for her, from the concept of being nice to enemies on principle to the player's sense of choice in the game they're playing.

...and you mean to tell me you trust Ralsei here?!

yes, that's right! ralsei, guy whose worldview is making everything worse for everyone, himself included, is a suselle shipper!

if you go back to the ferris wheel billboard after the susie intermission, ralsei will think to himself that susie must still be thinking about her ride with noelle.

and guess what HE'S FUCKING WRONG. all susie cares about is what the hell a ferris is!

(this isn't to say susie didn't enjoy the ride or doesn't sometimes think about noelle, just to be clear.)

i think there might even be another scene with the same premise but i can't remember.

point is, ralsei expects after a scene he knew was gonna happen that susie would be thinking about noelle, and he's wrong. its likely ralsei believes that suselle is gonna happen, because its part of susie's arc or something.

and considering his worldview hurts everyone, and susie rejects it wherever she can, and generally the story is about how the characters in the story reject the paths forced upon them by the narrative, are we really saying that ralsei is right about this one thing?

saying "susie likes noelle but doesn't know it yet" just feels so gross sometimes! like, come on! you're basically doing exactly what ralsei is doing, saying that its a foregone conclusion that they'll end up together, and that if susie doesn't show signs of having feelings for noelle (even in a goddamn non-canon valentines email!!) its because she just hasn't realized that that's what she wants yet. its almost like saying you know what she wants better than she does, that she'll be happy doing what you want her to do, because that's just how it is.

and i know susie deltarune isn't real but come on! there's a clear parallel here between the narrative imposing arcs and labels upon characters against their will which they then fight against, and imposing romantic feelings onto a character they don't seem to have because that's what's best for you!

i'm not going to say suselle isn't going to happen, but i am going to say there is NARRATIVE REASON for it NOT to happen, because the in-universe narrative, the legend of delta rune, fate, predestiny, WHATEVER, seems to be the bad guy here!

#deltarune #suselle #to sum up: suselle happening stands in direct opposition with the themes of deltarune

[simcardiac-arrested]

do expand on the allegory

there’s probably better ways this has been phrased or analyzed but. snowgrave is just so Suddenly heteronormative compared to the rest of the game that it’s almost impossible to ignore—deltarune (and by extension undertale) has always been about queerness and gay relationships and the characters’ freedom of choice in terms of that—and as i understand, this sudden Straightwashing, let’s call it that, is to amplify the fact that something is veeery very deeply wrong and that these two characters have no choice or autonomy.

we have kris who is neither a man nor a woman and who isn’t implied to have romantic feelings towards anyone (all we know is that they really like susie, but it’s not clear in which way exactly), and we have noelle who is a lesbian and explicitly shown to have feelings for a character who is not kris, and she would like to just be friends with kris actually. but what happens in snowgrave? they’re suddenly put in a very hetero mold.

despite their genders and sexualities there is not a single queer thing about their snowgrave relationship. kris is shown as the domineering traditionally masculine one: they’re stoic, controlling, they make all the decisions and so on. noelle is shown as the submissive traditionally feminine one: always having to follow what kris says because she is ‘bound’ to them (i.e. married). and speaking of marriage, snowgrave just has a lot of wedding symbolism: noelle in a white dress with angel wings, the ring, the “we’re something else” ??? it all adds onto the inherent Wrongness of it all. and i think it can also be taken several ways. now that kris and noelle have been put in a seemingly straight relationship, they act like the ‘usual’ straight married couple portrayed in media: meaning they’re not actually happy together and want to get away from each other. but on the other hand the whole concept also rings of arranged marriages or forced marriages, of putting a queer person (or people) into a hetero relationship/marriage in hopes of fixing them somehow

umm i’m sure there’s more to be talked about but you probably get the general idea. and like i said in the beginning this whole allegory is used to amplify the central theme of deltarune: control. relationships can and often are used as a form of control over someone’s life, and i think the way toby fox uses that in snowgrave is really interesting. because let’s be honest, it wasn’t Needed: we could’ve just had your typical genocide route where we manipulate someone into murder and etc etc. but the romantic subtext just really hammers it home that This Is Wrong. that this is not what kris or noelle want. that kris has no choice but to follow the player’s commands no matter how uncomfortable it is. and fuck me is it uncomfortable, to shove these two gay kids into what is basically a straight abusive marriage for no real reason other than your own amusement. They dont call it the weird route for nothing i guess

#i hope this is comprehensive enougjh #im still sick and my head feels funny. and m SOO hungry starving white woman #but yeah #cramswering

[zora-moyashi]

... ah kris you sweet summer child. we love you.  okay so yall want my head cannons? haha well you’re gonna get them anyway. ramblings ahead

first off the only thing I can think of that kris would say to make susie back of like this is “good” in response to susie saying their mom will be so much happier without them after susie bites their head off. cause, ya know, that’s kinda messed up. while susie acts the way she does we’ve learned that she’s really got a good heart under there so that kinda hit her and she left them alone for the day.  now, saying kris is suicidal is not a stretch with how we’ve seen them act, pulling out their “own” soul, having no energy, falling asleep in class basically instantly, their friends (asy, dess, and noelle who feels like kris doesn’t care about her) not being around them anymore. we can just feel the angst rolling off them, and of course wanting the soul to leave them alone so badly that they rip it out very often to just have a second away from us though it clearly hurts. now i’ve had this theory for a while, and i don’t really look at other’s theory’s so i’m 100% certain others have said something basically the same as what i’m going to but i don’t care at the moment. continuing.  

first, kris and frisk have the same exact hair and skin color as you likely know, so it’s pretty clear they are the same person just older. my head cannon is that kris here is a frisk that finished a possessed pacifist run meaning chara owns their soul now and has free run of the world to do whatever they like after the game is over and we lose control of them. so as usual we have 3 people fighting for power here, frisk, chara, and the player you. as flowey has stated, time passes after you beat the game of undertale and life goes on for frisk. now, want to know something messed up? cool, glad you do, frisk was 100% suicidal (in my headcannon) by the time they climbed mount ebott that was all they wanted, just death. this is why frisk doesn’t answer any call on the surface even though the monsters call them, they finished the job after they got to the surface and had control of themself again. (it was chara who tripped and may have wanted to live, just away from humans) if you leave frisk on a normal pacifist run then they go on with life because now they have their friends, life’s so much better for them. in neutral routs it’s all the same as before and they end theirself. chara is with us during every playthrough of undertale because they join the second we join. chara’s soul essence powered up frisk’s and (likely) made them able to reset and that jazz as it was two human souls in one. why didn’t chara’s essence go with any of the other people that fell on their dead body and flowers? red souls so they were way more compatible. chara is probably very sleepy and not really sure what’s going on through the game but during the geno run where you are doing so many horrible things, killing the ones chara was trying to save, you finally wake them up for good.  so, in corrupted pacifist line now that chara is in almost complete control of frisk’s body (or at the very least it’s just chara against frisk sense you finished the game and can’t do anything again) they can finally live their life happily with their monster family. but what’s missing? asriel. The one chara cared most about and got killed. Chara has had a taste of godlike power, why can’t they have their best friend? they can turn back time so why not? that’s where things get messy. I personally think that chara got frisk to agree to get sans’ machine working (that thing in his lab that i presume hops dimensions seeing as he’s from the deltarune world (right??? that’s right right?)) and sense they can turn back time they have all the time they could possibly want to figure this out. The idea is that this chara/frisk combo child finds the perfect alternate universe for themself. one where everyone’s already above ground, one where their family is together and happy, one where asriel is alive. they chose this world to join and make their permanent home. (maybe the coordinates to this au were already in sans’ machine so they got to this place easily) so seemingly to everyone in their own au right after they get to the surface with them, chara/frisk ditches them and gets ready to go to their new home, still a young child as frisk is. chara/frisk now kris, as it’s literally a combo of their names (Chara as in character which should be karacter i don’t know why it’s a ch lmao) then lives out their childhood in this au that they thought would be perfect for them. finally a fair life for two kids that had it rough. chara likely made a deal saying something of the sort “we’ll die after we live our live here” and frisk was like “fine whatever” but keep in mind frisk is so tired, so mentally ill it’s hard to even get up and walk without chara practically making them. hence school zombie. hell, it’s possible that frisk died during the fall to the underground and it really is a zombie. unlikely though.  anyway the theory was that frisk is the one pulling out the soul to finally have full control for a second, that’s why there is blood on the floor by the birdcage before you’ve even had any control in this au, meaning frisk was fighting against chara. however, at the end of chapter one we see frisk’s eyes shine red for a second and that is a chara thing. so that would mean that it’s not just the soul that chara can control, it’s also the body. (which mmmmm i don’t knoooooow about that one chief) chara would recognize your presence and knows you're the one that made them go through all this, you’re the one that killed the ones they loved so obviously they’re like “not today satan”, so i’m still unsure if the soul is us and chara completely or if chara has some control over the body as well. i don’t know and i won’t know for years probably. anyway that is all i think. farewell 

#deltarune #susie #kris #suicide mention #undertale #undertale theory #deltarune theory #my stuff

[stainedglassthreads]

There are occasional edgy fringe theories about how Kris killed Asriel, and Ralsei’s Light World form is Kris’ headband covered in dust. And shortly after Chapter 2 dropped, before most of the fandom more or less agreed that Dess was lost but not confirmed dead, I do remember seeing one or two theories that  Kris killed Dess and Asgore lost his job by covering for them. 

I’m not really a fan of either of those theories. I feel like the Asriel one is just baseless speculation and shock value, while as for the Dess one, most have disregarded it and for good reason: there’s just a LOT more evidence for her being missing, even in a supernatural way, than being dead. 

But there is one character who might actually be dead who I’ve been disregarding for a while, and now want to give a second glance over. 

Kris Dreemurr. 

There were a few edgy theories in Undertale, of course, that Frisk was dead. Every seemingly lighthearted fandom has its bizarre ���it was all a dream’ or ‘this character was in a coma’ or ‘they were in purgatory all along’ theory, Undertale was no exception. I feel like this theory doesn’t completely make sense in Undertale. While Frisk and Kris share certain parallels, the idea that Frisk cannot live or exist without the Red Soul is not explored or even brought up, and as we move on from the game, it’s made pretty implicit that Frisk does get to live their own life (presuming one does not reset.) Between the brief glimpses of after the game ends that we get, Flowey imploring us to ‘let Frisk live their life,’ and the soft implication that the monsters may be speaking with Frisk in the Alarm Clock Dialogue... Frisk suddenly dropping dead the moment they reach the surface would come kinda outta left field, especially when Toby took the care of setting up what they may be doing on the surface-- living with Toriel or serving as Ambassador of the Monsters or starting a new adventure. 

But for all their parallels with Frisk, Kris’ situation is different. It’s made clear that they struggle a lot with the Red Soul. A parallel between them and Spamton is made, and when Spamton cuts his strings, expecting to be a real boy, he falls to the ground and does not get back up, in a very downer moment. 

The implication, taken to its logical conclusion, implies that without the Red Soul being inside them for too long, Kris might actually die. But it does beg the question... Was the Red Soul always their Soul? And if not, where is their real Soul? What happened to it? 

There are a couple of theories about where Kris’ real Soul is. If it was left in the Bunker, or if Gaster took it in a deal of some sort. I do not have anywhere near enough evidence to say with certainty where Kris’ soul is, so any guesses of mine would be 100% speculation. But I have to wonder if Kris technically died some time ago, and has been limping along by ‘borrowing’ the souls of passing entities, or something similar. If perhaps, rather than killing Dess or Asriel in the Bunker... ‘Kris’ was the one killed, and only ‘survived’ by becoming a passenger in their own body. 

I don’t think I’m the only one who’s theorized Kris may be dead. I do recall one other theory post citing how Susie calls Kris ‘the class zombie’ as possible unwitting foreshadowing on Susie’s end. I think we need more information on whatever the Red Soul is, how long it’s been there, and if there were any prior possessions before we can make a certain ruling either way tho. We’re still in just Chapter 2 out of 7, and I’m sure there’s a lot of things we don’t know. 

tl;dr: Asriel is alive. Dess is yet to be seen but probably not dead dead. Frisk is probably not dead post-Undertale, and probably goes on to live a long and happy life, before you reset. Kris would be less fine if the game ended and they were still stuck with the Red Soul. 

#deltarune #deltarune theory #kris #kris dreemurr

[askfallenroyalty]

For the dark world design things, I like the sprite where they all become kids but like, did this take place earlier or they all just be like Chara and tranform into their younger self?

Because both didn't really make sense since if it's the first, the story would ended earlier and you have to redraw the arc after to make them younger which probably isn't good for uhh, time probably, or Chara thought after this adventure like, few years later after it ended which isn't realistic, if it's the latter then that mean all of them want to be younger... which probabpy isn't that unrealistic but it would make Chara's situation not unique or special to their situation or whatever, or it mean the dark world work different... which is possible actually but why would G man make a world that make everyone that get in it become superpowered children, what if younger kid or adult get in?

Or maybe they all got in before as a kid and this is the sprite for that, or you just make the younger design as a joke or because you want and I overthink it

Or it's secret and you are not gonna tell me which is ok I just like being a conspiracy theorist lol

NAH you're fine lmao sorry i should of clarified this. i'm still unsure about it.

my logic was chara made the darkworld so it's influenced by their desire -but you're right, the outfits themselves seem separate from that. it's more customized to the individual, same as how Ralsei's castle and Queen's mansions become personalized. The world itself is influenced by Noelle (I assume she accidently made it? but also Kris could of been the one to do so... the world fits Noelle more) And becoming a kid is A Thing with Noelle for like, 1 second, so this isn't even out of the realm of possiblities.

And ALSO yeah, this world is (probably) made from a gaster fragment or at least houses one, it's separate from Deltarune the game and it's canon. I'm not even sure this IS a darkworld or if it's a simulation of one. (maybe the CORE secretly powers a pocket universe that Gaster made? that Chara accidently connects to and drags the gang into)

[has alt id]

Actually i was about to do a write up of pros/cons but i realized making them all kids is a bad idea. it just doesn't work.

cause like, I wanted them all to be kids to keep it consistent between them, but you're right it makes it less special/shocking when chara is Baby. (thinking this time around, we follow Frisk first and then meet with Chara.) anyway i wanted this because the main conflict is that Chara is wanting to force everyone to relive the past, so making Frisk a Baby and relieve their memories isn't a happy thing like it is to Chara.

BUT that happens when Chara True Resets anyway! I feel that'd lose a LOT of significance because we get used to Frisk being a teenager by the time we get to that story point. Also like, the reverse makes a fun effect of "oh YEAH Chara is a teenager! I got used to baby chara again!"

so yeah. i can't justify it and it lessens plot/thematic elements. Plus, its too repetive, even if I think it'd make it more clear what Frisk's problem with reliving the past is like

actually, I can do that with the reset thign too. Cause Frisk HATED being attacked by monsters and Chara's kinda forgotten about that since. So I'm gonna show them fight a lil before they confront Flowey.

Frisk's bard aspect (which like, is based on how I introduced teenage frisk with Vocaloid, this outfit is loosely inspired by that)

Anyway I need to establish more of their story BUT I think the designs should reflect them more (like you pointed out!) like, originally, Frisk was going to have this side plot over befriending Suzy (their universe version of Susie) that was, sadly, dropped because Susie was stuck with Kris and it made more sense for Chara to stay away from Frisk after the DW adventure (cause Chara broke their promise)

BUT now i have the chance to actually explore that! So now, Frisk takes the adventure with MK to be a fun game and a chance to befriend Suzy. I really want Frisk's adventure to be separate from Chara's journey, because Frisk being mopey was Defs over done in the OG, and it makes it more impactful when Frisk gets upset if they're more happy the rest of the time.

Frisk still hates fighting (god. i'm gonna have to design a bunch of enemies...) but since they're not alone (and being haunted by chara), they don't mind it nearly as much. the Vibes of Deltarune (where most enemies just want to capture you) vs. UT (where most enemies are trying to kill you) are so drastically different. Frisk would be SO happy about this change.

#doodles #dark world

[starlightshadowsworld]

Bendy and the dark revival part 3

Thonks and notes.

.

She was the fourth

👀

Something tells me this is about Audery? But... The fourth of what?

Better not be the fourth closet...

Listens to Jane Todd tape

So the fourth is Carly, a ghost girl Jane wants to join the Butcher gang.

That was rejected.

... Hmmm

.

So Nathan Arch, aka guy from Archgate productions bought the rights to Joey's characters.

He talks about Joey as an old friend but idk if its just cos of fnaf and Henry addressing William the same way.

But something doesn't seem right bout this.

.

Porter is interesting, I mean there's very few people nice down here.

I like how he just goes nope your name is Bobby now.

.. And he has ink magic 2.

Sure okay than.

I like him.

.

The power belongs to him

Apparently not just him.

.

Game needs to stop taunting me with Boris...

Boris plushi in the ink.

Boris cardboard cut out which is also bizarre cos it's usually bendy ones.

In the words of Susie Campbell's Alice Angel from the first game

"Give me back my Boris!"

.

Ohhh chain door.

This should be good.

They crawl

Okay than and there's a dead lost one? On the floor surrounded by ink.

And the ink demon is back.

Fun.

The deep abyss remembers you, Audery.

If the abyss is Wilson... Than tell him we're not here.

A child of the darkness.

Hmm that's werid cos everyone else is referred to as a child of the machine.

Just more and more hints that Audery is different to the others.

And remembers?

Has Audery been here before I wonder.

I mean Henry was stuck in a time loop so... Who knows.

.

Wandering ebat the difference between lost ones and searchers are... Other than one having legs and feet.

.

Your journey will end as you are consumed into my dark kingdom.

That's just late stage capitalism man, was already there in while working in a dark semi abandoned animation studio

Here you will find meaning in your pain.

That's what we call a paycheck.

And I doubt your giving one out.

Also.. Ink demon needs to clear his throat once in a while.

.

People saying I should watch Superhorrorbros videos on this rather than Mark's playthrough for lore.

And I will but it's nice seeing stuff for myself and making ideas and having thonks and than seeing it from someone else.

That and than I don't get to see Mark aggressively "wallopolise" lost ones with the wrench while screaming and cursing them with eternal damnation.

.

The sweat cannot be cleaned

I love the wall writings in this game but.... Ew.

Couldn't you go with idk blood or death or literally anything other than sweat.

.

We don't live forever.

When we're killed or finally pulled apart our diseased soils return to the ink to be reborn.

An unending cycle of torment.

But sometimes, something even worse can happen.

A soul can slip from the ink completely. It gets caught between worlds, unable to die or return.

They wail in the night. Drifting in shadow. The phantoms of the machine.

The ghosts.

So... You do live forever.

Liar.

Also this sounds like what happened to Henry.

Stuck in a loop of time unable to truly die and stuck in an endless cycle.

.

Werid how the ink demon doesn't have the ability to Flow like Audery and Porter do.

.

Ugh... Wilsons back.

Attention children of the machine. It's Wilson.

We know!

There have been lies that the Ink demon has been spotted in animation alley.

Pay no attention to these filthy rumours.

I destroyed the ink demon myself! Be died my hands do don't be afraid.

I legit forgot he said that.

He's a fucking liar.

I knew he was lying because obviously but wow.

If said demon kills him ima just turn the other way.

Didnt see it.

Your friend Wilson will protect you.

I'm more afraid of you than him frankly.

.

Without fear there's chaos

Wilson would love star wars with his whole with fear is order and with order there is no chaos and all that wallop.

.

Audery... Maybe don't punch through ink canisters.

Like I get it.

But you know could be glass or something. Hell there is a glass shattering sound.

Be careful.

.

Feels like Nathan is now going to the church of the ink machine.

Just like Joey before him.

.

And chapter 3 begins, the Eternal machine.

.

This is Wilson

Go away!

Anyone caught in the restricted areas will be taken immediately to the Pit.

Where a ballpit will send you to a Freddy Fazbear's pizzeria in the year 198-

... Wrong pit.

My bad.

So be a good egg.

Follow the rules.

.... Hmm nope.

.

Good to know the true enemy of Joey Drew studios is slow working lifts.

.

Audery gets in lift. Recalls in the 1st game how the lift crashed down and Susies Alice Angel stole Boris

...I have a bad feeling.

Unauthorised surface elevator in use. Manual lift ejection activated.

Knew it.

See lifts in this game... Not good.

Bad things in this game:

Lifts

And Wilson.

... And ink crabs now apparently.

Still better than Sea Bonnie's.

.

Audery finally gets the coffee she came for!

... Hold up its $15.

Jeez I knew Joey Drew studios went bankrupt and all that but... Who the fuck is paying that much for coffee.

Especially when it's called Compost Coffee.

... See this is scarier than the ink demon.

Late stage capitalism is the real enemy of this game.

.. And Wilson.

Fuck that guy.

... Actually don't.

#bendy and the dark revival #Thonks #bendy and the ink machine #Batim

[pt-disconnected]

Having arrived at the school, the group walked through the school, with Player hidden at the center- and it worked well, with Kris, Susie, and Noelle passing it off as a group of friends talking together. Nobody thought much of it.

Well, nobody except one person.

"Ah! Noelle! Where have you- wait, what are you doing with Susie? And... well, I guess Kris is understandable..."

Everyone froze. It was Berdly.

Berdly hadn't known Noelle was pretty much friends with Kris and Susie. And of course, he was walking towards them. Towards Noelle.

And towards the Player- the second human.

Which he didn't take long to see- being a bit more perceptive than most. "Wait. Who is that secon- WHOA!"

The next few seconds were, from the Player's point of view, a massive whirl of confusion. First, Toriel had grabbed Kris' hand from the left, and the Player from the right- although in the chaos she had grabbed their head, causing them to freeze in confusion and essentially ragdoll the rest of the way.

As for Susie and Noelle, Susie just picked up Berdly like a football and ran (which was honestly shocking to both Noelle and Berdly), and Noelle was just making sure there was a clear path to the old classroom.

Once they were there, and things were calmed down, Berdly just let out a shocked response. "...what just happened..."

Toriel sighed. "...I was hoping that things wouldn't get any further complicated. But I suppose that it was asking for things to do just that. I guess some explaining needs done."

With that, the group started explaining the situation to Berdly- who was surprisingly able to comprehend the whole of it. And when the Player described the whole layered-world portion, Berdly actually seemed intrigued by it- and not even doubtful.

"...So you're saying that this... Player... basically came from a reality a step up from ours, and had been controlling Kris thinking that our reality was akin to a video game, when in truth it was just a window into our layer of reality."

Everyone went silent. Except Susie. "Okay, I have no idea what the hell you just said, but it sounds kinda accurate." Toriel just chuckled. "I suppose Berdly understood it much faster than the rest of us. Regardless, Kris, Susie, Noelle, and the Player supposedly had something to show me involving... recent events... and, I guess we're showing you as well?"

Kris nodded. "Might as well. He knows about Player and the Player's world... might as well inform him of the rest."

Berdly nodded a bit. "...Okay. I guess this might explain Kris and Susie's continued absences." Susie just rolled her eyes. "Oh for the-"

Before she could say anything, Kris just stopped her. "Hold on, Susie. We'll get to that afterwards. For now though, we need to get to class- we've spent long enough as is."

Now it was Berdly's turn to be confused. "What? Go to class? But people are gonna notice the Player! How are we supposed to..." Until, being Berdly, he figured things out. "Oh. That's why you all were so tightly packed- you were hiding them. And you were gonna have them stay in here until class was over. That's... actually really smart. Whose idea was that anyways?"

Noelle chuckled some. "It was a bit from... all of us, actually." she said, smiling a bit. Berdly nodded in response- not even a jab at Susie. After a few moments of silence- mostly Susie expecting the aforementioned jab, Berdly spoke once more. "...So are we gonna get going or stand here awkwardly for another hour?"

Susie just chuckled at this. "Okay, okay, birdbrain. Let's get moving." As they walked out, the Player could hear Berdly and Noelle talk a bit more, starting with Berdly asking if Noelle finished the project, and finishing with an awkward "Uhh, about that..." as the door closed behind them.

After that, the Player was left alone in the old classroom.

At least, they had thought they were alone.

"...You're already forgetting, aren't you?"

They turned around to see the Knight from the other side of a small, dark hole in the wall, one which hadn't been there before.

The Player took a step back. "What are you doing here?!" they exclaimed- albeit somewhat quietly. The Knight just chuckled a bit. "I'm not quite 'here'. Nor quite 'there' either. But that isn't my intent right now."

"You at least remember how you tried to keep the timeline from shifting, don't you? How you tried to prevent it from changing?"

The Player looked towards the white being, unsure what to think of this. "...Yeah, I messed up... I'm trying to keep too much from shifting..."

But the Knight laughed lightly. "...It's a bit late for that. I'm sure you felt as though something was off. And... that's because something was. The past has been altered. And, at this point, there's nothing that can be done. If the past changes in some way, then it's always been like that. But the fact you're still here- with your SOUL- means that you're still going to pull your little stunt anyways. Thus I must position my pieces accordingly."

The Player groaned. "Always with your little board game analogies. You do know that you're playing a completely different game, right? If that term makes sense." they said, a sort of jab at them. And oddly enough, the Knight laughed to this. A more genuine laugh. It almost scared the Player.

"I suppose I have grown to use a lot of these analogies, even in name. That's what you used against me after all. And you are correct- as of right now, we are playing different games. But sooner or later, seeing as our pieces are the same, we'll wind up in the same game anyways. You do understand that much, right?"

The Player sighs. "...I guess so. Maybe it's more of the same game with different goals. Or something." To this, the Knight nodded. "...Very much so. My goal isn't quite to defeat you, nor the other friends of yours. It's something else entirely, but that's a story for another time. You keep playing your game, and we'll cross the bridge of our games some other time. I'll leave you and your group to your own devices."

The hole begins to fade away once more, and the Knight with it. The Player grumbled slightly- but the Knight was right. There was no way to deal with the Knight yet. They had more important issues at hand.

And somehow, the Knight seemed like they were talking more than normal. Not because of monologuing, but because of legitimate conversation. And the laughter- the actual, genuine laughter... it felt unusual. Almost like they hadn't laughed for years.

They seemed like someone entirely different for those few minutes.

But before they could think much on this, the rest of the group returned. Kris chuckled.

"All right, let's get things set up, and then we can show you what's going on."

HOLY CRAP DISCONNECTED IS BACK PART 15 WHAAAT So I've been having a lot happen, from graduating high school to being able to meet up with an online friend in real life. So Disconnected wasn't getting a lot of attention sadly. But, here we are again… Now with 25% more Berdly. Yes, Berdly is actually joining the cast. Shocking, I know. But I realized that Berdly would be the only one to question the grouping of Kris, Susie, and Noelle (and Toriel of course), and therefore the only one to interact up close... and the only one to approach from Noelle's side. And thus the only one to most likely see Player. Of course it'd be Berdly. Plus it gives a unique dynamic in that he's going to be able to understand everything going on even though nobody understands anything of what's going on. Seriously, he's probably seen enough geeky television shows to know how to understand a multiverse (and time travel as well, but that's another story to get into.) And of course he's gonna end up in the group as well because now that he knows, he's gonna have to be let in on the group so others in the town don't lose their minds over Berdly mentioning a second human. Also the Knight is back. Woo. But this time he's strangely amicable. Almost like he hasn't had a simple, friendly conversation in years. 66 and a half sounds about right. Plus it's made clear that changing the past enough has effects- not just on the Light World (and thus likely the Dark World as well), but also on those involved (the Player) in the Over World. It really is time travel, isn't it? Minor changes simply become part of the past, but major changes make more of a Back To The Future situation. (Trust me, this stuff is complicated.) Regardless, this part has quite a lot of stuff to go over. With the one possible way the plan could go wrong going wrong, and with the Knight introducing a different side of their personality and explaining that the time travel DOES have consequences... this part has quite the chunk of stuff to see. But this is still just the beginning- there's lots left to unpack for this story. And while we now have a good number of recurring characters in the story, trust me when I say the group is going to change throughout. So for now, enjoy this part and I will get Part 16 out soon. I'm really sorry for these delays... See you! Previous Part | First Part | Next Part LynxGriffin’s Paper Trail Comic (This part of Disconnected takes place within of part 65 in the comic. However, we are viewing things from where the Player can see- thus, we don't know what happened from Kris' perspective. Go check out the original comic for an idea of what happened!)

#undertale #deltarune #paper trail #lynxgriffin #pt-disconnected #berdly #why must you do this #birb #also toriel #we got a big group now #also also knight #wait he's being nice #what the heck is going on with that #don't think about it #totally not foreshadowing

[mellowgoop]

bruh, sadvent just because I gotta do it somewhere... I feel like I'm falling so far down between the cracks of the sapphic communities, I legit dont know if my sexuality is changing or if its just giganta comphet but this last half a year has been excruciating... my actual friends have been amazingly supportive but we just suck so bad as communities with umbrella terming I feel so incredibly isolated from bi people and lesbians and I have no idea when thats going to change...

this isnt in reference to anything specific (incredibly!) but just in general in baffles me that a media outlet could post, like, "wow this fictional girl has got a girl crush!" and then you know the comments are going to be one half UGH LESBIAN ICON! and UGH BI QUEEN!! and then people supposedly in communities with solidarity just. ripping, tearing and clawing at each others throats in the replies over something that will *never, ever* be confirmed canon one way or another

when you could just fucking both say sapphic to start! aaaaaa

just because i havent vented about this sort of thing before, clarifying that I firmly see lesbian as *not* an umbrella term (probably clear) and see fussing with actual canon sexualities as super sus

deltarune annoys me a lot because i saw speedrunners at agdq last year calling susie and noelle lesbians and like?? yes of course it would be neato as hell if they were exclusively attracted to women but how do you look at that games script and have anyyyy idea if theyre lesbians or bi or pan?? who in the world knows who is actually asking??? it is just not stated at all its not nearly a priority Who Cares at this point just call them sapphic until theres more chapters why start this issue for yourself as communities when chapter 6 reveals susie actually does like berdly and now Lesbian Susie 699 has to change her icon of four years and weep an agony existential because john deltarune told her it was sub-textually cannon after chapter three

someone else saying that sort of thing would have come off as "wanting everything to be bi" to me a few years ago but thats not it at all, its more about protecting the term lesbian from being overused and losing its meaning / building up an actual umbrella term in sapphic than anything

it just annoys me so much

#vent #if this makes you want to fight me get into the mood of giving #and launch into a tirade about nuanced infighting and identity dynamics at someone from the salvation army instead

[debrisyume]

Kris and Ralsei wrote The Legend

No this isn’t a “Ralsei and Kris are evil” theory, anyway—

I mentioned in my ‘Kris is the Knight’ theory post that I think the Legend isn’t real (please read that first), here’s a post going into more detail as to why. 

Chapter 1 and 2 made it clear that one of the themes about Deltarune is escapism. The Dark Worlds are a fantasy for the main characters, where they get to have cool powers and fun adventures. The Darkners are objects come to life, and each world seems to based on different forms of entertainment: cards and board games for chapter 1, the internet for chapter 2, and chapter 3 seems to be about the TV. We also see that the characters’ weapons and armor are based on mundane objects in the Light World, pencils turns into swords and watches turn into fancy pocket watches, etc.

There’s some question on how exactly the Dark Worlds work, when these characters exist for only a day yet have all these backstories and know residents of different Dark Worlds (Seam, Jevil, and King know Queen, Tasque Manager and Spamton know Jevil, etc). I’ve seen people suspect the fountains are actually a portal to these worlds, that have existed for longer than we think. Queen and a Swatchling, however, says that the Knight ‘created’ this world, and Seam calls the Lightners their ‘creators’ as well. I think it fits better with the escapism theme if the Dark Worlds’ backstories and characters are all creations of someone. I would compare the Knight to a writer, another person might have made the Jack of Spades and the King of Spades cards brothers, but the Knight decided they should be father and son. The Queen didn’t exist until a day later, but the Darkners in the Card Castle world were created to know her anyway, and vice versa.

Some of their memories could be based on things that happened in the Light World, like how Queen knows everyone’s search history, but I don’t think that’s the case for most of this stuff because it doesn’t really make sense for Queen the laptop to be in an elementary school classroom that hasn’t been used for years, yet Seam and Jevil talk about the Queen ‘returning’ and it’s clear her and King have some sort of relationship. So yeah, the Darkners are the Knight’s OCs! It’s essentially a case of last thursdayism, which if you don’t know, it’s the idea that the universe could have been created last Thursday, but we don’t know that because we all have fake memories of it existing for longer.

I think this one line Ralsei says is referencing one of the main themes of the game. Here he’s talking about the made-up word, but meta-wise this is about how the whole Dark World is ‘fake’ the same way fictional stories are fake, and I think that includes the prophecy. It’s not real, but you can still find value in fiction, just like the DR characters can find value in the Darkners and their worlds.

Something interesting about the Computer lab Dark World is how it caters to Noelle. There are multiple medically related enemies (virovirokun makes sense because they’re a virus, but what’s up with ambyu-lance?), the characters wear hospital outfits to spare one of them (there’s a reason why we first thought the next world would be in the hospital), one of the puzzles spells “December”, Noelle talks about Dess taking her to a city and there’s a city in this Dark World even though nothing about a computer world requires a city to exist, especially with a queen around. Noelle and ONLY Noelle gets the flavor text of ‘pulling the plug’ of the Werewires, seemingly referencing her father :(

Queen is oddly focused on her, and seems to resemble Noelle’s actual mother who’s controlling and has high expectations of her. There’s an ENTIRE separate route that’s only possible with Noelle, and Noelle gets to go on a date with Susie. The entire sequence feels dream-like, Susie saves Noelle from some Darkners (who show up out of nowhere) and the Ferris Wheel... also kinda shows up out of nowhere? As if someone set it up? The Knight ships suselle?

We don’t know as much about Susie, but it’s possible the Card Castle Dark World is based on her too. Lancer is the main reason why she got to open up and learn that she could actually have friends like she’s always wanted (he’s the perfect friend for someone like her, someone who thinks her scariness is cool), the King repeats her whole speech about “quiet people” from the Light World, something only Kris heard. Card Castle is also structured quite strangely, we hear about how 4 kings ruled together, but there’s only one throne room and it’s only based on spades. When we fight King there’s a huge spade on the ground even though spade shouldn’t be any more important than the other suits. I suppose King might have done some redecorating before the heroes showed up, but I think because the Knight wanted King to be the sole ruler, that their thoughts influenced how the castle looks.

This is going to be rather speculative, but I think the supply closet world is for Kris. There’s obviously Ralsei, who resembles their older brother, but I think the papers on the ground are what make up his kingdom. The buildings look like paper cutouts, and I think that’s because the papers are drawings of his kingdom. I also think these are things Kris and Asriel drew when they were younger, probably making up some story about a lonely prince named Ralsei, and how a new person came to life that made him feel less alone: a human knight (basically Kris and Asriel are creating a story based around how Asriel felt before Kris became his sibling, and also a reference to their counterparts from Undertale). Kris’s side of their bedroom is also empty despite living there for years, so I think they got rid of their stuff recently (which would explain why Toriel seems concerned when she asks Alphys about them). Some of the books in their mother’s classroom belonged to them, so maybe they left some of their things in the closet too?

I think that’s the main point of these Dark Worlds, for these characters to have fun and grow as people. Susie gets her first ever friends, Noelle learns to stand up for herself, hang out with Susie and reconnects with Kris. Even Berdly is nicer now and starting to work on his insecurities.

Now, what does all that have to do with Ralsei lying about the authenticity of the Legend? Well first let’s talk about why I think it’s made up.

—Ralsei never elaborates about the Angel’s Heaven, and we get these entirely new villains, the Titans, in chapter 2, who he brings up at the last minute.

—Ralsei, at first, says that the three heroes are supposed to seal the fountains together. Except five minutes later he clarifies that only Kris can do it. We know this is true because we see Kris do it by themselves in the Weird Route. But why does he know this if the Legend contradicts this idea? We also never see him there at the sealing, there’s always a space meant there for him that hasn’t gotten filled yet. This contrasts with the title theme showing the trio together, and the picture during the Legend showing the three heroes sealing it together. I think he’s avoiding being there for some reason. 

—Ralsei talks a lot about ‘balance’ between light and dark. The balance shifted when the Knight made the second dark fountain. However, this implies that Ralsei’s own dark fountain needs to stay open, but that makes no sense. There’s no way the supply closet Dark World has existed for more than a couple of days, otherwise other characters would come across it, particularly Alphys and Toriel. Alphys even says there should be chalk in there. Ralsei is either misinformed or lying about this.

—If the way to stop the world from ending is to seal the Fountains, and only Kris can seal them, doesn’t that mean only Kris is needed, and Ralsei and Susie are... unnecessary? This legend kinda sucks lol

Ralsei lying initially only to tell the truth five minutes later about who seals the fountain is weird, but I think I know why he did it. The framing in the Legend makes it less obvious that the role of the prince and the monster are not needed. Ralsei only clarified when Susie refused to play along and just wanted to go home. If Kris is her ticket way home, she has to stay with them, which would make it more likely for them to become friends. And that’s what Ralsei wants, for Kris to be happier and have friends outside of Asriel.

The interesting thing about Susie being the ‘monster’ to me is that she, out of everyone in Kris’s class, is the least equipped to figure out the Ralsei-Asriel connection. She doesn’t know Kris has a brother, she thinks his name is spelled ‘Ralsay’, ruining the anagram. I don’t know how much Susie entering the Dark World was made deliberate by either Ralsei or Kris, it’s not like either of them could predict that Susie would be sent out with Kris to get chalk, but it doesn’t feel very coincidental when taking that into account. I think Ralsei might have wanted Susie to be the ‘monster’ specifically because he knows her reputation as a bully in Kris’s school and wants her to be friendlier to Kris. Probably Kris was interested in befriending her too, or at least didn’t hate the idea.

Ralsei talks about Darkners having to serve Lightners but really he mainly means Kris (notice how he barely talks to Noelle and Berdly, despite them both being Lightners he’s supposed to serve). They’re the one that he constantly praises and encourages. And he doesn’t even mind if Kris fights people, unlike with Susie, who he gets upset with and even lectures her about it. Ralsei thinks Kris should be the leader, and gets upset when Susie takes away Kris’s uniqueness by learning how to ACT. I think he makes them do the puzzles and puts the decisions on them (Kris can do this puzzle, Kris who you do want to go with, etc) because he wants them to become more independent. Kris seems very listless and lost after Asriel left for college, they kinda need this encouragement (it’s also interesting to me how Kris clearly dislikes the fact that they’re human, but in the Dark World they’re just a Lightner like Susie, Noelle, and Berdly. They’re not as othered there, just more ways it comes across as an escapist fantasy for them).

Some flavor text in the library implies that Kris doesn’t feel ready to grow up, when you check out the board it reads ‘The teenzone: Where Teen’s can be Kid’s. A feeling of immense relief washes over you.’. There’s also how they’re the only teenager who still wears a striped shirt, even though that’s supposed to be a thing only children wear. And then there’s Toriel holding their hand, which Kris clearly doesn’t enjoy, but they still don’t protest. There’s just a lot of little things like this indicating Kris isn’t as independent as most teenagers are, or want to be at this age. I think part of this comes from depression and the other part comes from being used to having Asriel there to help and accommodate for them (like the way he’d carry them to school as opposed to making them walk)

And the way Ralsei treats Kris... this is kinda subjective, but it almost comes across as he sees them as a little kid, or at least someone who needs their hand held. He acts like an older brother, you could say? Lots of things he praises them for are so mundane, like they’re a child who needs their confidence raised. The way he says “good job!” after Kris pushed the block into the switch on that one puzzle makes me laugh every time. It’d be patronizing if he didn’t sound so sincere when he does it.

The reason the Legend exists is so that the Lightners can get invested in the adventure. If they all knew everything was technically fake and that the Darkners are just objects come to life, that would make it less fun for them.

In the beginning of chapter 2, Ralsei singles out Kris to talk to them alone. He whispers to them to get the objects from the unused classroom, preventing Susie from learning that the Darkners are objects. Like I say in the post I linked, Ralsei also acts like Kris should already understand what’s going on. And I think they do, because they’re the Knight.

I know some people don’t like this theory, but I think it has a lot going for it thematically. Read my post linked at the top of this post for my reasons as to why I believe in it.

If I’m right about the Knight creating these characters, then characters who know each other from different Dark Worlds must be created by the same person. And Spamton keeps mentioning this Mike, and brings up TVs while talking about him, and Jevil referenced Queen back in chapter 1...

Also, if the Knight is basically the whole reason the heroes are needed at all, why aren’t they mentioned in the prophecy?

I take two things away from this— I think Ralsei actually doesn’t mind what the Knight is doing, he wants them to create more fountains because that also means more adventures for his friends, and that if the Knight is Kris, he could be working with them on this, as their “lackey” as Berdly puts it.

(why is this word of all things highlighted lol)

A lot of people don’t like this theory because they think it’s bad or weird writing to reveal the Knight so soon, I disagree. There’s so much more to this mystery than just the identity reveal. We still need to get into:

—Why Kris is doing this (and considering they’re a silent protagonist, this could take a while)

—How they figured out how to do this

—Everyone’s reactions to them being the Knight, both their friends and the main bosses who unknowingly became an obstacle towards someone they’re very loyal toward

—If Ralsei is involved/encouraging them on this

—If Gaster is involved/encouraging them about this (the Knight had a communion with him as Spamton puts it)

It’s possible that Toby just has different priorities about the story and there’s something else important about the Knight that doesn’t have to do with their identity. Twists can be really obvious yet still executed well (like the twist about the Masked Man from Mother 3, a game Toby is a fan of). Kris being the Knight makes sense to me from a narrative perspective because one of the strangest things about Deltarune is Kris. There’s so much we need to learn about them and we could do that through finding out what led them to being the Knight.

I keep talking about the Knight being the main writer here, but I think Ralsei also has the script, and is even making up his own things (he’s confused when things are off-kilter in Snowgrave), like the Titans. Kris’s save file in chapter 2 was saved in Castle Town for some reason, but their first save file that we overwritten didn’t have a location, I believe they met Ralsei last night to figure out how the next adventure should go. I think their secret conversations also have to do with this plan. Kris & Ralsei are collaborating and making up stories just like Kris & Asriel did as kids (I find it very hard to believe Asriel never roleplayed as the God of Hyperdeath before, especially after Deltarune makes it canon that it was his OC by showing us that it’s the final boss of his game WIP. In the DR universe he also had Ralsei to RP as). Also note how the Legend is framed like two different people are talking. ‘it was a legend of HOPES’ / ‘It was a legend of DREAMS’, what if that’s supposed to symbolize Kris and Ralsei writing the prophecy together?

Small tangent but if they are talking about their plan during their secret conversations, this could explain why Kris refused to have a private conversation with Ralsei during the Snowgrave route. Kris probably thinks there’s no point in discussing the next Dark World after we completely ruined their ideas on how Cyber World should go by pressuring them to manipulate Noelle.

It’s possible something like the Roaring is a thing but will come under different circumstances. Like maybe sealing too many fountains is what causes it, or that the fact that any fountains exist at all will lead to the Roaring happening (note: I don’t think Ralsei’s intention is for the world to end, he probably only knows as much about Dark Worlds as Kris does). The reason why Ralsei interrupted Berdly was not because he didn’t want him to make a fountain, but because he knew it wouldn’t work. And if it didn’t work, it would just make it easier for everyone to figure out that Kris is the Knight, and Ralsei can’t let that happen. He doesn’t want people to know what the Dark World really is so people can have fun together. 

I don’t think what Kris is doing is completely harmless, whether or not there’s actually a risk of an apocalypse. Kris’s soul gets used quite a bit in the Dark World, it connects the whole party together and shares damage between them. The soul flies over from Kris’s position to Susie when she’s fighting Lancer, and Kris uses the soul to seal fountains. They keep ripping their soul out harshly and throw it around like they want to hurt it. I think this is all putting a heavy strain on them and making them sick. I don’t think even walking around without a soul is good for their body.

We keep hearing in chapter one that Kris looks sick, and I think the strain put on their soul is the reason why. I’m thinking this could turn out really bad and make them bedridden in the hospital, especially with the pattern of hospital patients being different every day (It goes from ICE-E to Shyren in two days, and Berdly will need a room depending on your actions). I don’t think Ralsei is aware of any of this, otherwise he would tell Kris to stop for their own safety. I don’t think Kris completely understands the magic they’re messing with, which could lead to disastrous consequences for both themselves and Hometown.

Now I have a couple of predictions regarding the escapism theme. The first is that Kris, Susie, and Noelle will choose to forgo their real life responsibilities to live in the Dark World forever. I think Ralsei wants the Darkners recruited in preparation for something like this, because it’ll be less lonely with lots of friends around. Maybe it’ll be only one or two of them who decide on this, but all their lives are varying degrees of pretty terrible so I can see it happening with any of them. Ralsei will initially be pleased by them staying in his castle (especially Kris) but they all decide to leave eventually. While the Dark Worlds have been good for them, staying in one forever won’t be healthy. Ralsei will channel Flowey and force Kris to stay, leading to a boss fight. I’ve heard theories of him being a shadow crystal holder, so maybe his actions won’t be out of sheer entitlement but rather being influenced by Gaster like Jevil and Spamton were. Either way, Ralsei will eventually realize he’s in the wrong and let Kris go, cue crying hug. They may or may not seal the dark fountain after this, or just start wearing Ralsei’s headband again (yeah I think he’s the red horns), occasionally bringing him back to the Dark World so they can talk and hang out.

My other prediction is that choosing between living in the Dark World and living in the Light World will be framed as choosing between Ralsei and Asriel as well. Kris cares for Asriel deeply, and they clearly miss him, that’s why Ralsei exists in the first place, so Kris can have an Asriel around. But Ralsei, in many ways, is ‘easier’. He never gets tired of their antics, he’s always ready to encourage them, and Kris doesn’t have to worry about Ralsei leaving them, because his whole life’s purpose is dedicated to being their friend. But Asriel is growing up, ready to live his own life without Kris, and it’s been so long since they’ve been together in person. Not to mention how his break won’t last forever, he’s just going to back to college soon enough.

I think that’s making Kris very insecure, they’re probably super worried about drifting away from their brother, so they have Ralsei to fall back on. Ralsei is likely aware of this ‘purpose’ considering his line “I wonder what Ralsei-like even is...?”, which is significant enough that he says it no matter what Kris does. He’s uncertain about his own identity because he knows Kris wants him to be like Asriel. Whatever happens between Kris and Ralsei, I think it’s going to help Kris work through their unhealthy dependence on Asriel, and hopefully Ralsei will also realize how unhealthy his idolization of Kris is/the power dynamic between Lightners and Darkners is general.

Hmm, actually, if Ralsei does have a shadow crystal, maybe his battle will be optional like Spamton and Jevil. Like it only happens in you make certain decisions in a specific chapter (likely the final one), and his character arc goes in a different direction if you don’t take them, that could be cool. He’s one of the main characters so it’d also wouldn’t be that out of place for there to be different ‘routes’ for him.

I could be VERY off here (the Ralsei boss fight might be too similar to the Asriel fight from UT but I honestly wouldn’t mind lol), but the theme of unhealthy vs healthy escapism seems very obvious to me so I definitely think a plot point regarding the characters staying in the Dark Worlds forever will come up, or at least there be someone considering it, but it could be resolved in a different way!

Here’s another suggestion, the climax might be that Kris wants the Roaring to happening, except it’s not NEARLY as bad as Ralsei describes it. Darkners don’t turn to stone and the Titans don’t exist/are completely benevolent. The reason they haven’t caused it yet is because they want to wait until Asriel is home first, it’s why they’re making fountains only days before he’ll be back from college. Basically, their goal is to make him stay home forever. Yeah instead of Ralsei it’s KRIS pulling the Flowey now lol. 

Jokes aside, they’re also doing this because, like I’ve discussed before, they’re scared of growing up and don’t want to acknowledge their real world problems. I think they also want Darkners to live in the “real world” and for them to stop worshipping Lightners by doing this. I think part of the reason why Spamton made them so uncomfortable is because they feel guilty over the despair he feels by being his creator, and this could apply to Darkners in general. I don’t think they really like the dynamic between Lightners and Darkners, they might think King has a point about how Darkners need to be more independent. The way they play hot/cold with Ralsei could be because they feel responsible for his unhealthy attachment to them, and might want to deter that by being casually rude sometimes to put him off, but they still want to be friends which why we have all the hug options as well.

After everyone tells them they’re acting totally crazy/it’s revealed there actually is a negative consequence to the Roaring they admit they shouldn’t have done this and try to make it right by sealing the fountain(s). Since this would be getting rid of a huge Dark World this would probably have a huge negative effect on their health, maybe even killing them (I don’t want Kris to die but I keep seeing death flags...)

And that’s it! Sorry for how ramble-y this one is. I just wanted to get my thoughts out about the Dark World adventures being quite artificial because this doesn’t seem to be that popular of an idea...? (I’ve seen so many debates about if Ralsei is the real prince and my answer to that is, yes he is but it doesn’t matter because the prophecy is just there for roleplay purposes anyway haha). Obviously there’s other stuff going on like what’s up with Gaster and Kris’s soul and it’ll be interesting to see how everything ties together while likely being crazier than anything I could come up with. 

I realize both of these posts, especially when read together, are super long, so I appreciate anyone who took the time to read them (even if you just skimmed it), thank you!

#the seal barked again #deltarune spoilers //

[agentravensong]

Dance as a motif in UnderTale and DeltaRune

Wow, I actually went and wrote out some of my more unhinged DeltaRune thoughts. Let's not waste this and get right into the analysis.

We're gonna start with DeltaRune because I think that's where the thematic ties are more potent, and then we'll look at UnderTale to see if there's any additional stuff in it that supports it.

Firstly, a detail we'll return to multiple times in this post: Kris's solo act option in the Jevil fight is to pirouette. The specific choice of dance move sticks out to me, as it makes me think of those little ballerina figures in wind-up music boxes. We'll get to why that image sticks out to me later.

Next: In Chapter 2, there's the fight with the robot trio that's resolved by everyone dancing. On its own, it doesn't seem too thematically relevant, but I do think it's significant that this is the battle where Susie unlocks her and Ralsei's ability for them to ACT on their own. In theory, this is them gaining more autonomy... but they're still following Kris's (or, perhaps more accurately, our) command. Not to mention that Susie technically forces Ralsei into it.

I find that this brings out an interesting tension in the thematic idea of dancing: on the one hand, it's an expression of one's bodily autonomy, their skill and creativity. It's often spontaneous and symbolically an expression of freedom (think of the movie/musical Footloose, where the teens of the conservative religious town are banned from dancing). On the other hand, many dances are tightly choreographed, with high-level performers expected to perform them perfectly. And even those that aren't are still, for the most part, bound to the beat, the rhythm of the music.

In other words, dance encapsulates the dichotomy of freedom and control. Of chaos and order. The dichotomy at the heart of DeltaRune's narrative.

Kris's pirouette action in Jevil's fight also contains that dichotomy of chaos and order in it. At first, it seems like its effects are random, but one can figure out that they're actually tied to the turn number, and always occur in the same order. As Toby Fox said about Jevil's attacks, all chaos has some order in it.

Not only that, but there's also a second dichotomy one could consider as part of the first: dancing for oneself, as a personal artistic expression, versus dancing for an audience.

Here's where we begin to transition to talking about UnderTale. Because there's a character in UnderTale who's all about performing for an audience, and has super sweet dance moves: Mettaton.

And Mettaton has a pretty clear parallel in DeltaRune.

Spamton. Who takes DR!Mettaton's artistic creation (the NEO body) for his own, hoping to achieve freedom through someone else's self-expression, and is therefore doomed to fail. Spamton, a puppet dancing on his strings. Spamton, who calls out to a heavenly audience.

Spamton, whom Kris is heavily implied to relate to in some capacity.

Kris, who, when faced with the first secret boss, pirouettes. Like a ballerina in a music box, forced to spin around for as long as they've been wound up.

Kris, who plays (used to play) the piano, but can't do it - can't express themself artistically - while their body is under someone else's control.

Kris, who, when they rip out their SOUL and regain their autonomy at the end of Chapter 1, pulls out a knife and gives a cheeky grin to the heavens. To whatever audience might be watching.

...Some of that is more generally music-related or performance-related than dance-related, admittedly. There's a whole ton of stuff one could discuss re: music as a theme/motif in these games, but I'm gonna leave that for others to go into for the sake of time.

Let's properly transition into discussing UnderTale now, where I have two main examples to point out.

1. One of the pairs of items you can get are a Dusty Tutu and Ballet Shoes. Not just dance-related items, but ones of the same type (genre?) of dance as Kris's pirouette. This item pair is tied back to the blue Integrity soul. To have integrity is to be honest and have strong moral principles. You could say it means being true to oneself. This connection, therefore, basically confirms the thematic association between dance, personal expression, and autonomy.

2. Now, I could go more into Mettaton here, about how his character arc (and that of Mad Dummy / Mad Mew Mew, from whom Spamton stole the "festive jig" bit) reflects the theme of integrity; or how he has that one musical scene with Frisk where he has this strict, boring choreography while Frisk can move around however they want, but no matter what they do, the ending of the scene is still the same; and how all of Hotland is scripted by Alphys, but Mettaton still enjoys the performance, until he doesn't and then decides to make the dance his own...

And I guess by typing all that I kind of already did. But what I meant to get to, is this:

This is the dialogue for the mushroom in Temmie Village. They do a little dance when you interact with them, then look above Frisk's head with piercing eyes to deliver the rest of the dialogue.

The most interesting bit of this to me is the initial, standard dialogue, where Ragel describes their dance as being an expression of their imprisonment and torment. Their lack of autonomy, of freedom. A pain and lack unique to them, as even the destruction of the barrier won't solve their problem.

They have just enough autonomy to express their feelings via dance, but they're still limited by their circumstances. By their very body. Like how dancers are still bound to the beat, and the capabilities of their own bodies.

Can you see the parallels to DeltaRune here? To Susie, who keeps "breaking the narrative", but was also the one to tell Kris "your choices don't matter" and, at the end of the day, mostly falls in line as a Delta Warrior under their command? To Ralsei, who's wed to the prophecy but still tells Kris that their choices are important too? To Kris, who's forced to follow our commands, but begins in Chapter 2 to show more of their personality through the way they speak the lines we give them, finding ways to add their own flair to this tightly choreographed dance? Kris, whose restriction of their autonomy comes back to their very body?

Speaking of DeltaRune and Ralsei, there's one more thing I'd be remiss not to mention, as it's what set me off on this path of inquiry months ago: Ralsei has a weird, out-of-place sprite that has a small chance of showing up at a certain point in the Weird Route. A sprite that's stored, hidden, among his dance sprites from the robot trio battle. This video goes over that whole thing if you want to know more.

In conclusion, dance is a prominent motif in DeltaRune, tied to some of the game's most prominent themes, which UnderTale helped lay the ground for. We'll see how the use of the dance as a motif evolves in future DR chapters, likely coming to a head with the festival Susie teased at the end of Chapter 2.

After all, while one can certainly dance on their own... what about the time-honored tradition of dancing with a partner? A tradition that requires finding a balance between personal expression and following another person's lead?

I'll close out with a quote from the old version of the website for The Stanley Parable, which you may or may not deem resonant with what we've discussed here today:

“The game is not here to fight you; it is inviting you to dance.”

#deltarune #undertale #player theory #not tagging every character i mentioned here. nope. #mushroom dance / mushroom dance #whatever could it mean #image descriptions in alt text

[vqlisms]

i have exactly two ideas for Things I Thing Would Be Cool For Future Deltarune Chapters And Also Wouldn’t Put It Past Toby Fox To Do

one is that kris will be a boss of some kind

ok this is admittedly just one i think would be neat

a good amount of dialogue and time is spent emphasising the fact that kris and the Player are separate entities (perhaps not completely, but certainly enough that it matters). it is also implied that kris doesn’t enjoy being controlled, or at the very least what the Player forces them to do. this is most noticeable after the spamton neo fight, where they are visibly shaken after watching spamton die in a way that parallels their own situation.

^ i can see that playing out in two ways: kris getting more resigned to our presence because they don’t want to die, or them going to more and more drastic measures to find a way to separate us. from what we know about kris so far, i can see both working for similar reasons. kris really loves their friends and family, so i can imagine them both going along with everything so that they’re family doesn’t have to worry over their situation, or getting rid of us in any way possible so that they can make sure we can’t hurt them (and so they don’t have to have a relationship with them through the Player).

we can fight soulless beings. admittedly, this is based on undertale knowledge, but flowey had no problems pulling frisk into fights despite having no soul. it may just take a certain amount of determination, which kris likely has.

second is that there will be a chapter where we don’t play as kris for a good amount of time

in the pipis route, it directly sets up the fact that other characters can hear the Player, and therefore “control” them. control in quotes because noelle may have only obeyed the Player because she was scared, or thought it was kris in the moment, or was too out of it to refuse anyways. i definitely think that’s going to become a chekhov’s gun at best, and a major plot point at worst, depending on how much the pipis route influences future chapters.

it is also set up in chapter 1 after lancer sends the $!$? Squad to the dungeons. we, for a short amount of time, control/follow susie while she does her first puzzle. iirc, she also mentions hearing kris, or thinking about what kris would tell her to do after rejoining kris and ralsei. while she doesn’t seem as aware of it as noelle was, that would make sense because noelle knows kris. she knows what kris sounds like, what their mannerisms are. while it’s clear that susie and kris knew each other pre-game, it’s also implied to have been a while since they were last close enough to be considered friends, so she wouldn’t know as much as noelle if kris suddenly started acting and speaking differently.

in chapter 1, we were only apart from kris for a short amount of time, and they stayed (from our perspective) in their room for that whole time. there are, however, implications that they left their room after the chapter ended for us, since chapter 2 is the next day and kris apparently stole pie while we were not controlling them. in chapter 2, we were apart from kris for significantly longer, and for double the amount of times. whereas in chapter 1 they only put us in the birdcage, in chapter 2 they both trapped us in the bathroom cabinet and in the living room couch. both times there were the time cuts, which is how they presumably slashed toriel’s tires and did whatever other prep they needed to open a dark fountain. the amount of time we’re away from them (and our lack of awareness of what they do while out of our control) is only getting longer, almost intentionally so.

yeah these aren’t like,, solid theories or anything. but i think they’re neat ideas and i like talking about them so <3

#throwing theories at the wall and seeing what sticks #deltarune #q talks sometimes #deltarune spoilers #might have more thoughts on this later and edit it. who knows #love calling them the $!$? Squad it’s so silly