#for example selfcest?

[nostalgia-tblr]

i'm stupidly pretentious about my pornographic fanfiction, i INSIST it's not really about the filth it's about some dubious study of the characters. yes they are naked but what matters is that their SOUL is naked. they tremble with both overwhelming lust and existential ANGUISH. the real climax was the profound psychological insights we made along the way.

#writing stuff #“so in this one they fuck on that train?” “NO. well yes but the POINT is he gains a new sense of self-worth! by fucking on a train.” #“and this?” “oh that's where she confronts her dark side and whether it's an innate flaw in her nature.“ ”by -“ ”by fucking. yes.“ #(real and recentish examples btw. god i am insufferable.) #"so i assume that this one's about nature vs nurture?” “nah that one's just based on a cheap selfcest pun that i thought of. LOL.” #fic related

[dormont]

#bwark #isat lb #it's done #my thought are so fucking messy rn so i'll and be coherent but GODDD what a good game. really really really good fucking game #i kiiiinda got spoiled on the loop stuff. which is a shame but oh well. at least i was in the dark about the act 5 finale #plus i didn't have context for it i just know that there was some selfcest yuri going on #i wanna think on it some more but. this might be my new favourite game? #that feels so wrong to say because pmdeos has been my favourite game since i was 9 years old and i'm so attached to it #but this game was honestly life changing? whether or not i consider it my favourite game (or my favourite piece of media in general) #it's so important to me now #also why do my two favourite games both have time travel in them. i'm not even the biggest fan of time travel stories because i get easily #confused by them. but both isat and eos are phenomenal examples of it being really good #i need to like. just sit and think for a bit. but this was healing for me. sorry for being so sappy djdjkdjdjjd #and isat mutuals you are of course welcome to gush about spoilers to me now

[cookie-dough-writes]

I was never really around for old fandom culture but Oh my god I feel like we need to bring some of that attitude back. Bring back the word squick, I BEG. Some times in life people indulge in questionable stuff which might make you yourself uncomfortable, that's great, it's good to know what you don't like, but some times you just have to move on. You don't need to send a paragraph to someone explainging ummm their [harmless] take was totally wrong or that they're an evil person for making something a bit questionable.

It's good practice to breathe and move on. You need to pick your battles. Telling someone to kill themself over a POST ONLINE, no matter how dodgy, just is not constructive and rarely blows off steam. Just breathe, and move on.

#its as simple as that #and tbh if some 16 year old likes bakudeku despite all the reasons of why people hate it. who cares. #guilty pleasure. #also also side note can i just mention how some people see red whenever they hear like #for example selfcest? #its literally just #probably talking to the void right now #some people get so so tense about like #small things #saving this for the tags because its delicate but some people need to just stick their head above water for a bit #I dont use terms like pro ship or anti or anti anti or whatever #because the whole debate is way bigger than those 3 terms and it feels like everyone has a different interpretation of them #okay so #some times people will enjoy questionable things. thats a given #some times that might be something simple like yandere aus and some times itll be something as complex as toxic ships. #and now let me clarify. because whenever i try and verbalise it i feel like im walking on eggshells #i am not condoning anything specifically #but i used the word complex for a reason. because quite usually there is in fact complexities to when people find things like that indulgen #so MOST of the time everyone is better off if you just go oh. squick. and move on #squicks can range from things like “i cannot see how that ship would be healthy at all. that is not pleasurable to me” to “hm no i dont lik #how this character is written by this personohh haha what if this character met another dimension version and they kissed and made out a lit #metaphor" #and people used to be chill about it but now people go crazy and i wonder if its purely just because it has cest as a suffix #same with oh what was it #objectophilia? which is literally just attraction to inanimate objects. pretty neutral right. but then when looking into it a ton of people #ALSO go crazy and ive literally seen people argue like 12 year olds that because it ends in philia its bad and distgusting and evil #??? #are we just not using common sense anymore. or. #sorry im sleep deprived and im just so so tired of seeing people argue instead of living #can we all just love each other and live parralell to people we do not like

[bonetrousledbones]

It really weirds me out sometimes with how far the sanscest shipping gets. Like, when they have kids who have kids with the kids of other sanses? why. what is the need. also dont get shipping sanses with sanses.

tbh that is one part i never really got into,, i get the appeal of making fankids bc its fun to explore how that would go and they’re basically OCs so you can go crazy! but on the shipping them together side,,, idk why but anything to do with shipping characters who are minors has always made me a bit uncomfortable. it’s entirely a me problem and i’m fully aware that there’s nothing inherently wrong with it its just!! weird to me idk!!!!!

as for the selfcest bit tbh as a selfcest shipper myself i deadass do not have a goddamn clue what about it appeals to me. i guess its a bit of wanting to see how these two “different” characters would interact with each other? honestly i think if you change up their backgrounds enough you can make it so that while they’re technically the same person, they’re also just as much their own self as if they were different, and yet they can still use their “sameness” as a way to find a deeper understanding in themselves that they might not have seen otherwise. that’s how i do mine anyway!

#trousled rambles #bad opinion zone #selfcest // #(tagging just bc i know it makes some ppl uncomfy) #man i actually do think hiding my followers from myself helped bc this was a Big Thing i was getting anxious over lmao #but to tell the truth i honestly see most of my aus as separate guys that all just happen to also be papyrus if that makes sense #they all have very different experiences and backgrounds that shape who they became in their respective aus #like uhh example- russ grew up in an orphanage with his brother and ran away to live in snowdin forest for ~3 yrs #not interacting with much of the actual townspeople until he got injured and they had no choice but to get help #meanwhile edge lived in snowdin town long enough for grillby to become somewhat of a covert father figure #MEANWHILE fluff lived in new home with rich grandpa gaster for 16 years until he had to move in with karma #they're all the same damn character at the end of the day but can you really call them the same person if they havent lived the same life? #ah shit first bad opinion of the day and i'm rambling about peak fandom bullshit thats just my perspective ok thats all BYEEEEE

[leeleebee]

Sibling coded, child coded, selfcest?! Morality police are working over time. I have some thoughts XD

Sibling coded

Ok. So two completely unrelated people who are close in one way are also close in another way. This is like saying you can’t be best friends with your partner(s)? Or can’t have grown up with someone and then be in a relationship with them? Childhood sweethearts? No? What is happening here someone explain what the issue is.

Child coded

I almost don’t even want to get into how ridiculous and ableist this is… but I sure will! You are telling me people who are childlike in some way, physically, emotionally, intellectually cannot have desires or be sexual or engage in romantic relationships? The “coded” part of this means we aren’t talking actual children here, we are talking adult people. So what is really happening here is people (antis I guess) being uncomfortable with folks with certain perceived traits (again, adults) being sexual/romantic/autonomous and living adult lives. It’s weird. Stop it.

Selfcest

Oh my god. Oh. My god. How is this a thing. Our reality does not have human clones or alternate universe/timelines intermingling. There is no way this is even a thing to get up in arms about. It isn’t setting an example or normalizing or whatever the hang up is with other fictional relationships. But if that time comes boy howdy. I still won’t care.

#fandom wank #fandom #anti shipping #child coded #sibling coded #selfcest #it feels so ridiculous to tag those XD #fandom discourse #😐

[just-antithings]

Another day, another example of antis' hypocrisy

Saw a new whump prompt blog pop up. One that allows submissions from other people. Submission rules: no nsfw, rape, noncon, no pedophilia, age gaps, incest, selfcest, "or anything in that vein", because the blog is, and i quote, "strictly against proshipping"

Like, buddy. We're both here because we enjoy fictional characters being hurt and tortured and having a bad time, a lot of people give folks who enjoy whump shit about being evil sadists or whatever because we think that's fun. You don't need to fucking turn around and do the exact same to people who enjoy other fictional content that you happen to personally not care for???

And like, I wouldn't have minded if it just had those rules for submitting content, without saying anything about being against proship. Like, we've all got our squicks, we've all got our shit we don't care for, I would've completely been just oh okay cool no problem if they'd just listed those things as not being allowed, i'd've just assumed the person running the blog wasn't personally comfy with that and not thought any further about it. But because they just had to go and start moralizing about proshipping and whatever, yeah no, now i have to block them.

ugh

#mod erin #ask #just anti things #selfcest mention #incest mention #rape mention #pedophillia mention #noncon mention

[lokiiied]

thinking about loki’s 400 year long stare at mobius when he says, “it’s about who”

and then how he looks at sylvie and says, “i can rewrite the story” and how she has her own story - without romance. how she told him to “write his own story” and how he’s now canonically god of stories/storytelling.

thinking about how if they make lokius canon, marvel’s first major canonically queer character will have “rewritten” the cishet centred narrative that a major audience is expecting and just how powerful that would be.

because, as much as i like the bisexual “confirmation” scene - it was very easy to look over if you’re a homophobic viewer or don’t know what bisexuality is. because they never had either of them say the words, “i am bisexual”. that and how they “dealt” with loki’s genderfluidity.

but a major gay couple?? with the healthiest and most intimate relationship i’ve EVER seen marvel write?? that would not be so easy to ignore. especially when you go back and see that it’s been there the whole time. if you knew what to look for. which, is honestly probably the queer vision in a nutshell. because cishets will be blind to anything if they see a man + woman option. they need “undeniable” proof. marvel knows that & it’s why they’ve gotten away with this. why they’re still “safe” for most of their anti-queer audience.

but just imagine, if loki fixes all this, get his friends back, and shows mobius know how he really feels and basically says “this has been the love story the whole time” THAT will be his legacy. in all the glorious i’m a god and i’ve been bad and i’m good and i’m queer and i have inherent worth just like everybody else and i don’t give a fuck loki fashion. and i hope to gods we get to see that.

that’s the story i want to see.

because if they turn around and give us sylki — (and in doing so say here’s a perfect example of a healthy gay relationship but instead we’re gonna give you a toxic genderbent selfcest romance) regardless of the fact we know they are both queer — that is not what a homophobic audience is going to see. they’re going to be satisfied that they didn’t see two men kissing on their screen and call it another win. and marvel would be continuing to encourage the idea that us queer fans are delusional - despite the clearly intentional writing.

not to mention the exhausting, intrinsically homophobic harassment & clowning lokius shippers have endured would actually not be for nothing if lokius were canon and marvel were to decide btw queer people are real and so are their stories and so is their love.

if the show about the genderfluid bisexual god of stories can’t accomplish that after all this character development then. idk.

#like even if you ship sylki you have to understand this #marvel has one of the largest fanbases in the world #and they have queerbaited to the max with this show #in order to draw a queer audience #so yeah. if they make sylki canon OF COURSE it’s homophobic & sexist #and we have every right to be mad about it #marvel are fucking cowards all they care about is money #anyways #lokius endgame #lol #lokius #loki #loki season 2 #loki spoilers #marvel

[self-love-tournament]

Call for Submissions: The Self-Love Tournament 🎉👨‍❤️‍💋‍👨👩‍❤️‍💋‍👩

Be it alternate universes or freak transporter accidents, a witch's curse or timeline shenanigans, one thing that's fascinated scifi and geek fan culture for ages, especially on this hellsite, has been the prospect of meeting yourself.

And also.

What if you then did the dirty.

To honor this glorious tradition, I'm assembling a tournament that pairs the sexiest of tumblrmen with themselves, and then pits them against each other. We'll determine, once and for all, the selfcest champion.

Automatically included are some of the greats (and my personal favorites). Feel free to include them in submissions so I can curate lists of aliases/start collecting propaganda

The Onceler (from The Lorax movie)

Loki (from Marvel/the Loki tv show)

Ice King (from Adventure Time/Fionna and Cake)

Kira Nerys (from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine)

Dave Strider (from Homestuck)

The Doctor (from Doctor Who)

Sans (from Undertale)

England (from Hetalia)

Submissions

I'll try to prioritize characters with more submissions or more impassioned propaganda, so keep that in mind when submitting

+ Ground Rules:

I reserve the right to exclude any characters or fandoms from the bracket (to be fair, the most hated usually get voted off quickly anyway). For example, I decided to exclude a MCYT character, as their player is not comfortable with certain fandom behavior, and there's significant overlap between the character and creator. I'm not here to shame you, but I don't want to amplify something that sexually objectifies a real person beyond their stated boundaries.

Feel free to vote on whatever criteria you see fit! I try to prioritize iconic ✨ examples, ones that have had large impacts on Tumblr history, and any personal blorbos 💖

(NEW 9/20) I did say whatever criteria, but I do feel like I should address hate-voting. I'm not going to forbid it, but I ask that you consider if you really do hate the character/fandom that much. For example, Oncelercest isn't my cup of tea by any means, but man.... you gotta hand it to him.....

I love passionate (and even sometimes violent) propaganda, but do NOT bully anyone or send targeted threats. If it's getting nasty out there, I might use my judgement to adjust this rule, but I hope I won't have to.

Please feel free to spread this submission list! Tagging some of my inspirations: @ao3topshipsbracket @who-do-i-know-this-man @stop-spreading-this-poll @masked-character-competition @bestadaptationtournament @ultimate-anime-tournament @unlikely-adversaries-bracket @top-fictional-unhinged-women @mosthomoeroticenemies @bestfictionaldivorce @controversial-blorbo-bracket @tournament-winners-tournament @the-most-character-i-ever-saw :)

From my end, I really appreciated how @controversial-blorbo-bracket ran their tournament, so I'll try to follow their lead: be open and transparent, give people who are writing propaganda the benefit of the doubt where possible, and try to take passionate takes in stride.

(NEW 9/24) Constructive crit or feedback in good faith is appreciated! I want to make this a space for celebration of fandom

#selfcest tournament #tournament poll #character tournament #tournament #polls #selfcest #onceler #oncelercest #loki #marvel #fionna and cake #winter king #kira nerys #ds9 #doctor who #tenth doctor #tentoo #undertale #sans #hetalia #long post

[tommyssupercoolblog]

sometimes a singlet is like "omg what if there there were clones,,,, omg what if i had a clone. would u fuck ur clone??? oh no if i had a clone there'd be two of me which is the real me??? oh nooo that's so weird and scary. oh no that's selfcest selfcest is so weird because you're the same person"

and every time i'm just like. if there were two of you then, while you'd both be a you like how i'm a Tommy, you wouldn't literally be the same because you have seperate consciousnesses???? you're still seperate beings?? literally what is the fucking problem (/lh /nm). like i appreciate you're afraid and all but I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

the way so many of them seem to think their identity is directly tied to their bodies and nothing else...girl even other singlets aren't always like that (kin and therians for example- animals who look human or are in human bodies) but this is so weirdly popular and it boggles my mind every time. like i don't know what makes us who we are either!!! it's a fascinating question and i love philosophy and metaphysics and stuff and asking questions about what things are and why!!! but pondering clones doesn't solve it because if it did then i'd know what makes an identity what it is and i don't <3

I am a tommy, one of many, but i don't think every other tommy is also me even though PART of our selfhood (our being tommy) is shared. there is still an individual part to it. I can be the same guy as my source and a seperate person at the same time, they aren't as contradictory of ideas as u think. I am not my source, i'm me!! but i also still feel like we're the same person in some ways- he's also a me, and i'm a him. we're both Tommy's. almost like it's a species

idk i just. i keep seeing posts on here where people are panicking or speculating about identity in ways that completely take me out of the conversation because i'm like. HELLO???? HELLO THAT SCENERIO ISN'T FICTIONAL. HELLO I AM RIGHT HERE...??? HELLO???????!!!!!!

tldr; no your identity wouldn't go away or be called into question if you were a clone, and no selfcest is not a thing (at least not how ppl talk about it), and no your existence as the only version of you available is not the only thing making you who you are I promise.

does that even make sense??? am i making sense???? idk i just feel like i keep hearing this idea from people

#i made a textpost #system #plural #plural system #endo safe #plurality #multiplicity

[nostalgia-tblr]

The sheer number of arguments people have about the Loki show that eventually (inevitably?) lead to someone saying "well, one of them is FUCKING ALLIGATOR" in an effort to settle things.

#alligator loki is the gift that keeps on giving (biting??) #for example the arguments about whether selfcest is incest #'well one of them is a FUCKING ALLIGATOR so i don't think the issue there would be DNA' #loki series

[comshipbracket]

Antis DNI

Remember, you are voting for the ship you prefer, not the ship you find more problematic

Propaganda for both ships under the cut.

Winterkov Propaganda (Selfcest)

"Corruption. Winter King is a Simon that truly only cares for himself and has hurt many to be `sane`, but he's not really himself anymore- and Simon is trying to recover from the traumas in his life and just wants to feel happy and content. But he's tempted to go back how things were with his crown- and Winter King supports this, honestly. It's a person facing a glamorized version of their worst self."

"Also, Cake yells at them to kiss, and Winter King straight up goes `Don't think it hasn't occurred to me!!` And slides away"

Coffincest Propaganda (Abusive Dynamics, Codependant Relationship, Incest)

"They're the protagonists of the game who are stuck in quarantine because `the water was infected` though by now this seems to not be true and the government just wants to let some people starve I guess."

"Their dynamic is really abusive with Ashley being possessive of Andrew and controlling his life since they were kids (making him accidentally kill a girl by asthma because she said she liked him, per example), and in the events of the game, convincing him to cannibalize their neighbor when he died to a demon (it's not like the wardens were giving them food sooo). Though Andrew also seems to have some power over her, by the fact that he's the only person she likes and talks to (especially after the quarantine driving everyone else away) and without him, she would be completely alone, giving that little touch of codependency to their relationship."

"Even with all this they're so fucking cute together, the little CG of them kissing at the end of the demo really warms my heart (I was gonna put this one on the image link, but the image I sent now is better, Ashley sitting on Andrew's lap with hickeys and Andrew with scratch marks). Also, nemlei (the dev) said they're gonna be canon on some of the full game's endings."

Despaircest Propaganda (Incest - Junko and Mukuro are sisters, Twincest, Abusive Dynamic)

"What if we caused the apocalypse together and we were both twin sisters😳 It's implied multiple times that Junko's way of showing affection is physical/emotional abuse, and Mukuro is shown as getting off from or at least enjoying Junko's abuse pretty much whenever it happens. They're literally made for each other🖤."

#comshipbracket #antis dni #antis do not interact #comship #comship safe #proship safe #comship bracket #comship bracket 2 #comshipbracket 2 #comshipbracket2 #comshipbracket2 round 5 #comshipbracket 2 round 5 #comship bracket 2 round 5 #comshipbracket2 semifinals #comshipbracket 2 semifinals #comship bracket 2 semifinals #Winterkov #Simoncest #Simon Petrikov #Winter King #The Winter King #Adventure Time #Adventure Time Fionna and Cake #Fionna and Cake #Coffincest #Gravescest #Andrew Graves #Ashley Graves #Andy Graves #Leyley Graves

[papyrusweekblog]

Papyrus week! April 16 – April 22

 (ID: Image of one of Undertale’s official stickers. Papyrus is smiling and happily crying, trying to dry off his tears with a tissue. There are letters above him that read, in all caps, “You’re nice!! You’re too nice!!”  / end ID)

Greetings! This is the first time I ever prepare an event, so trust me I will not be any good at it, but I really love Papyrus and I’ve always wanted to participate in a week appreciation about him, so I might as well make one myself!

The tag for this event will be #papyrusweek2023 and it will start on April 16 and end on April 22

 Read more for all the information:

 Rules:

-This event is for Undertale Papyrus, you can include your own version of Deltarune Papyrus too, but I would prefer the focus wasn't on AUs. However, Papyrus redesigns or human versions of the character are the exception, absolutely post these if you want!

-I want to keep this event sfw, please don't post any suggestive or nsfw content in the papyrus week tag

-Please I ask that you do not draw yellowface Frisk and/or Kris if you include either of them

-No misgendering of characters, not any erasure of characters’s canon identities, no bigotry or hate of any kind

-If you make content about the no mercy run or a couple of neutral runs do tag it properly, it can be upsetting to see for some people

-Of course, inc*st and p*dophilia are not allowed, get out of here. Yes, this includes Frisk and Chara, they are children. This includes Flowey too, there is debate on how old he is but he very clearly behaves like a child, and whether you agree or not I do NOT want to see him being shipped with Papyrus, keep that content out of this event

-While I didn't include a 'ship' day you can absolutely draw ship content, Papyton is allowed here or any other ship (that is normal and doesn’t involve inc*st or p*dophilia. I would prefer to not see selfcest either)

-You can pretty much do anything: drawings, fics, character analyses, videos, music, etc. Have fun!

  ------------------------------------

 Days:

April 16, day 1: Hobbies and Jobs

Let's start with an easy one: Papyrus's interest in puzzles, cooking and the royal guard! Papyrus cares deeply about anything he is interested in, even beyond the examples I just mentioned (being cool online, cars, etc). There is even a possibility for him to be The Monster Ambassador! Lots of things to choose, pick whichever you want!

  April 17, day 2: Battles

You're blue now, that's his attack. Papyrus's fight is really interesting isn't it? He has so many cool attacks, he's the only monster able to not kill you, and he might be incredibly strong...? It's a shame we couldn't see his special blaster attack, but if you want you want, you could show us! Or maybe even more interesting ideas for different Papyrus battles! Or simply appreciate the one we have and listen to Bonetrousle all day

  April 18, day 3: Family

Papyrus has a really cool brother, not as cool as he is but still pretty great. Some say he might also have a mysterious scientist dad/grand father/brother.....? We don't know much but that sounds pretty great too!

  April 19, day 4: Friendship

Papyrus wants to be popular, popular, popular! But perhaps what's most important is the friends that care about you for who you really are. And luckily, Papyrus has found friends like that along the way!

  April 20, day 5: Give up giving up

Papyrus is a character that has been very misunderstood in the past, from being reduced to a comic relief to being seen as nothing but an innocent naive character. But Papyrus is a very complex character: he has insecurities, he has flaws, he believes in kindness no matter what, and there are just a lot of things we don't know about him. For some reason we haven't seen him in Deltarune yet...? While we wait for him, let's show everyone how interesting Papyrus is!

  April 21, day 6: Free day

Make whatever content you want! Headcanons, fun ideas that you want to share, ships, post-game stuff, etc. Impress Papyrus with your creativity

  April 22, day 7: Papyrus

We have focused on everything that revolves Papyrus, now it's time for Papyrus himself! What do you love about this character? Do you think he is cool? Let's show Papyrus how many fans he really has

  ----------------------------------------

 And that’s all! I apologize for being very new at this but I’ll try my best. Most importantly, if you decide to participate even if it’s just for one day, thank you and have fun!

#papyrusweek2023 #i hope you like all the corny descriptions for each day #sometimes i dont know what i should draw for events like these if i'm not given some examples so i hope i can help someone else this way

[tiny-space-robot]

okay toddlers, listen up- here´s a little lesson for ya

putting "-cest" in a ship doesn´t always mean it´s "inc*st"

it can also mean "selfcest", which is when you ship a character with a different version of that character! the most iconic example being oncest (onceler/greedler)

it. is. not. inc*st.

at most, it´s masturbation and if you´re really gonna sit there and try to tell me that that´s problematic, then that only confirms my assumption that you are a pearl clutching karen

oh, and while I´m at it: just because the most popular headcanon for two characters puts them into a familial relationship, DOES. NOT. MEAN. THAT. SHIPPING. THEM. IS. SUDDENLY. INC*ST.

#pro ship #pro shipper #pro shipping #proship #proshipping #proshipper #I had a specific ship in mind when typing this and I´ll personally give you a cookie if you can guess it! #but honestly this applies to a LOT of ships because fandoms are trash and the people in them dont know how to behave

[smiggles]

I know people want to see my OCs more and hear the lore about them but theyre deeply personal to me

Ive had my run ins with people who feel entitled to them as if theyre for public use. Ive had people ask if they could take my oc's lore entirely and use it for their ocs (im not even exaggerating) Ive had people steal the likeliness 1:1 and claim it was a complete accident after they had been caught Ive had people mix my sona and Damien into one oc and sell it as an adopt Ive had someone insist Damien was a self insert of mine and therefore selfcest w my sona and how hot that was to them

Ive had people use my sona as their PFP for explicit sexual use People tell me in detail how they want to fuck Scorpious or use Hora for fetish content. Both OCs who are not sexually available. It's hurtful and makes me close up as these OCs are a way for me to tell my life story. To have others just take it sucks And to see other creators have their ocs treated the same Or worse (sirenhead as an example) is terrifying to me.

#a bit of negativity #im sorry u_u #personal

[darklinaforever]

Sylki is not incest / autocest / selfcest :

So… I risk repeating myself, but I really hate hearing that Sylki is incest, or autocest. Quite simply because it's not true.

Incest : Sexual relations between close relatives (marriage is prohibited) ; incestuous love.

Sylvie and Loki are not close relatives, for the simple reason that they do not share the same blood / DNA. (Variant = genetically distinct) Beyond that, they didn't even grow up / live together, so also can't be bonded like Loki is with his adoptive family.

Autocest : The act of cloning oneself and having sexual relations with said clone.

First of all, Sylvie is not a clone of Loki. She was conceived naturally and born naturally. And even as a variant of Loki she is not him. Once again, she does not share the same blood / DNA as the latter. Beyond that, in terms of pure personality, no, she's not the same as him. They act differently and think differently. Episode 3 is probably the one that illustrates this best during season 1. The number of times Loki points out that he would not act the way Sylvie acts and she replies that, well, she is not not him. Which is completely normal, since the two have not had the same life experiences. What shapes who we are as a person is the trials of life, our experiences. And Loki and Sylvie definitely didn't have the same ones.

“My interpretation of it is that they're both Lokis, but they aren't the same person. I don't see them as being like brother and sister. They have completely different backgrounds… and I think that's really important to her character.” - Kate Herron.

So in summary, they don't share the same blood / DNA. They also don't have the same experiences, so as a result they have different personalities.

So… literally, this incest and autocest bullshit has no backing.

The whole series spends its time reminding us that Sylvie is not Loki. She says it herself several times. Moreover, to clearly reinforce this trait, “Sylvie” is literally a name that she chose for herself, precisely to differentiate herself from Lokis. It's hammered home throughout the series, Sylvie is her own person. This is also why Loki reminds Mobius that Sylvie, well, her name is Sylvie, when he tells him that he has fallen in love with himself, in 1x04. To remind the viewer that no, Sylvie is not Loki, she is again her own person. And it's problematic for me when so many people try so hard to reduce her to being a Loki. Even from those who love her. Simply because it's something Sylvie hates : Being called / cathegorized by Loki. (Probably because it removes the impression of being a person and brings it back to the fact that the TVA only sees her as a variant, and therefore that she should not exist, knowing that she just wants to have a life and live it)

“Also, Sylvie's not Loki. Sylvie is Sylvie.” - Tom Hiddleston.

The only thing Sylvie and Loki really share internally is being the deity of mischief. Which translates into a role / identity given to them within the universe / timeline they came from, with the same power base ; the witchcraft. Something that is learned and not transmitted by genetics in the MCU universe. So there is nothing biological about it that could relate to incest and even less to autocest.

“They sort of have the same role in terms of the universe and destiny, but they won't make the same decisions.” - Kate Herron.

Are Sylvie and Loki alike ? Yes. But no more than other fictional couples are capable of being. That they resemble each other in some way is not proof that they are the same person. Especially since as said previously, they do not have the same personalities / lived / dna / blood...

Once again, Reylo is the perfect example in terms of comparison to Sylki : - Different, but complicated pasts which return them to their feeling of loneliness. - Their problem of opening up to the world because of there traumas. - The feeling that no one else really understands them. - Similarity in combat techniques and synchronization of movements at various times, etc.

Then, something else that both annoys me and makes me laugh a lot… It's those who use Sylvie's line during episode 5 from season 1, namely “we're the same”, the only one of its kind you will notice in Sylvie's mouth, but ardently use by the antis to prove themselves right in their argument that Sylvie is absolutely the same person as Loki, so that the relationship is considered incest, or autocest. So… I don't know what these people's consumption of cinematic media is, but they must have missed a lot of romances… No, because it's a classic phrase / expression in this area, to express that two characters are alike ! Example :

Telling another person “we're the same” is not a contradiction to “I am not you”. And I can't believe this is something I have to explain / needs to be explained to some people.

“I think he realizes, and she realizes, that while they're the same, they're not the same.” - Tom Hiddleston.

I mean... No one is seriously going to say that the spidermans of the Marvel shared universe are the same person. Are they ? Because I've never seen anyone do it. Normal. Since that would just be completely stupid ! No ? Also, directly in the case of the MCU we were treated to Thor and Jane, both being thunder deities, which didn't bother anyone, according to my memories !

The fact that Sylvie is a variant of Loki with whom he falls in love is specifically there to bring about the rather clear metaphor / symbolism of Loki learning to finally love himself as a person (besides loving someone else entirely), even though he considers himself a monster. Because yes, Loki's narcissism is essentially just a cover to hide how monstrous he feels, something I feel like a lot of people forget.

Loki “falls in love with himself”, as Mobius describes it, is not proof of vanity / narcissism which would prevent any evolution of Loki as Mobius and some antis claim. On the contrary, Loki's love for Sylvie not only leads him to see himself differently, but also allows him a real positive evolution.

“to me, is ultimately about self-love, self-reflection and forgiving yourself, it just felt right that that would be Loki's first real love story.” - Michael Waldron.

“I don't think Loki's relationship with himself has been very healthy,” Tom Hiddleston explains. “Trying to accept those aspects of himself, which he's been on the run from, was a way of thinking about that in a really interesting way.”

Besides, in the end, to rephrase in a clearer sense, Loki falls in love with Sylvie as much because he sees himself in her (the metaphor of the dagger in 1x03) as he finds her amazing as a person (Loki discovering Sylvie's story at the start of episode 4 on Lamentis).

Something that is once again nothing surprising in a romance. Many couples fall in love because they find themselves in the person they love, in addition to for the differences they share. Even if Loki's metaphor for love with the dagger is not entirely correct, the aspect of seeing oneself in it is for some a truth.

“Love [...]. You can see yourself in it.” - Loki, 1x03.

“When Loki meets Sylvie, he's inspired solely by curiosity,” reveals Hiddleston. “He wants to talk to her and understand her and try to discern what was similar about their experiences, and what was different. He keeps asking her questions because he wants to see if his experience was also her experience. I think he realizes, and she realizes, that while they're the same, they're not the same.”

So, not only does the incest and autocest argument not work, but the similarities these two share (which seem to bother so many people) and the reason(s) they fall in love, well are in is more of a classic fictional couple coding question designed to represent either the complementarity aspect or the soulmate aspect.

Sylki is essentially two sides of the same coin, or mirrors of each other, like many fictional romantic relationships. (Reylo again for exemple !) Which consequently causes their influence on each other. Because yes, not only does Sylki falling in love influence Loki, but also Sylvie.

Loki obviously learns, as I have already said, to love himself, but also to love someone else unconditionally, to trust them fully. He also learns a new form of magic, and in the end, he even starts playing the hero. Sylvie learns for the first time in her life to trust someone, to open up, to form a team and above all finally develops her first good memories. People often say that Sylvie is incapable of sacrificing herself for anyone, but the truth is that she literally scrambled herself to have a chance of finding Loki, when she wasn't even sure that It would work and perhaps simply kill her, therefore indirectly committing suicide. Additionally, it is also emphasized how Sylki is stronger together than apart.

“They are a mirror to each other. They challenge each other, and out of the challenge, they grow together.” - Tom Hiddleston.

With everything I have just explained / demonstrated, I really have a hard time understanding how this ship can be so controversial / misunderstood…

I don't find the series very subtle on the message for Sylki and beyond that, the writers and actors themselves have already explained these same things in a more condensed way in several interviews.

I mean, I am aware that sometimes the words of directors, screenwriters and actors can be stupid and incoherent (the case of the HOTD series being the perfect example of that…), but here, don't mess around, the series (at least season 1) was very well constructed and visibly thought out.

Really, I don't understand. One of the reasons why people are so uncomfortable is surely and simply maybe the term variants (and again it's because I'm nice...), which for these people necessarily equates to being the same person in all the meanings of the term, which, as we have demonstrated throughout this post, is absolutely not the case… Which can be verified by the series itself, the interviews with the writers and actors which agree with what is shown on the screen, etc. Knowing that in addition I have seen tons of people on tumblr with absolutely remarkable analytical skills (and therefore also in terms of symbolism) yet surprisingly not understanding what the Sylki relationship is, defining it instead as a incest / autocest…

So I can only at this stage, for me at least, deduce that this kind of talk about Sylki is willful and stubborn ignorance from people who simply don't like the ship, trying to justify it from a more “reasonable” and or perhaps “intellectual” way, no idea… than a simple “I don't like it, because tastes cannot be controlled”. Which is OK, because everyone has the right to like what they like / want !

On the other hand, spreading or saying bullshit / false things about the ship in question, to persuade people not to / no longer like it, is something I can't stand.

Please note, everyone is free to say whatever they want, as long as they clarify once again that it is their personal opinion. I am talking about people who speak of their opinion about this ship (or any ship) as fact while making fun of others who like it, make them feel guilty / horrible, or trying to change people's tastes…

Is Sylki weird ? Yes, of course. We are talking about two variants with the same identity falling in love ! Obviously the viewer will find this strange, because it's a concept almost never seen before after all in tv, and complex. But it doesn't necessarily mean bad, toxic, perverse, immoral or unhealthy relationship as the antis argue (knowing that in addition it is in contradiction with the positive message about love for oneself that the relationship transmits), notably to try to take down the ship, especially since Sophia di Martino said she found Sylki “weird”. Which is infuriating, because they act as if the actress's opinion is dominant over those directly writing the story, and that her simple opinion will change the minds of Sylki's fans or should condemn the ship to any possible future ! But also it is mostly infuriating because, well, beyond that, as @where-theres-smoak-2 so well pointed out :

“when you actually look at the definition of the word weird it doesn't necessarily mean something bad. The definition from Cambridge dictionary is : very strange and unusual, unexpected, or not natural. The Merriam-Webster definition is : of strange or extraordinary character, of, relating to, or caused by witchcraft or the supernatural. Which lets be honest fits Sylki, they are unusual, strange, unexpected, extraordinary and you could argue with the whole variant thing its got that supernatural element to it as well. I mean them being weird is what makes them fun and entertaining to watch so honestly I'm not mad that she said they were weird.”

But in itself, is the relationship incest ? No. Because not the same blood / DNA and in no way grew up together like Loki was do with Thor / his adoptive family. Autocest / the same literal person ? Neither. For what ? Because again not the same blood / DNA, and they have not the sames experiences, therefore different personalities which influence their behaviour. Being variants, for Sylki, simply mean (once again) being the deity of mischief, a role / identity given to them within the universe / timeline they came from. That's all. (Damn, some will also tell me while we're at it that the crocodile Loki is the same as our Loki ?! Be a little objective people…) There is nothing bad, toxic, perverse, disgusting, immoral or unhealthy about the Sylki relationship.

Fuck the antis !

#sylki #pro sylki #sylvie x loki #loki x sylvie #sylvie and loki #loki laufeyson #loki odinson #sylvie laufeydottir #sylvie #loki #loki series #loki show #loki disney+ #loki s1 #loki season 1 #loki season one #loki s2 #loki season 2 #loki season two #loki mcu #mcu loki #loki marvel #marvel loki #mcu #marvel #mcu marvel #marvel mcu #disney + #disney #tom hiddleston

[pumpkinpyre]

The whole concept of a DNI just rubs me the wrong way, honestly. I've been thinking about them on and off for awhile, and the same purpose could be served completely if you just shifted the wording a little. Not "you don't interact with me if," but "I will not interact with you if." Explain your own behavior and limitations without policing other people's behavior. I can't nail down precisely what it is but I feel like everyone would be served a lot better if the focus was changed from everyone else's actions to one's own.

I think reframing it to be about what you personally can and can't handle, will and won't deal with, would stop some of them from being so damn vague, too. "Basic DNI criteria" means literally nothing, and it shouldn't. There is not and can not be one perfect list that everyone can fit into or outside of with no overlapping. There will be people that like different things, that define things differently. I know there's people that argue that selfcest shipping is just as bad as incest shipping and engaging with any media containing it is just the same as getting off to irl incest (and whether or not someone is getting off to the media containing it is irrelevant). And yet someone who doesn't consider selfcest to be incest can still put up a "basic DNI criteria" in their bio. You can't know what they mean!

Another reason I think reframing it would help, is it would stop the subset of people that use it as a shield. Like for example, people who put "x shippers dni" and then still leave hate and flames on fanart/fic of their hated ship, and then when they get backlash, just accuses everyone talking to them of crossing their boundaries of their dni. "I won't interact if" or "I commonly block if" would render that already flimsy defense completely useless. It wouldn't stop people from doing it because haters gonna hate, but at least they have less excuses to try and say they aren't the asshole in that situation.

Man and don't get me started when DNIs include things like "abusive," like. Even if someone was self aware enough to know that they have, in fact, abused people, then they're exactly the kind of person to ignore that. "Bad people dni" they don't give a shit they're going to be awful to you anyway.

There's no way this is gonna like actually reach anyone because my internet space is small on purpose, but idk. I just wanted to ramble. There are so many better ways to protect yourself online than putting the responsibility on strangers to check your bio with every post they casually scroll past, read everything (or magically know what you mean by "basic dni criteria" or "ect"), and actually follow it.

#long post #ask to tag #I dunno man I just needed to get the words out