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khaleesirin · 5 years

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“What makes me uncomfortable is that, as far as I’m aware, Daenerys is the only character whose choice of war (or, more precisely, Fire and Blood) is possibly being framed negatively. I say “possibly” because we don’t have TWOW in our hands to be sure, but you can see that’s a possibility considering how a significant part of the fandom has come to the conclusion that she just can’t be a peacetime queen, she has shown her “true colors”. This opinion never sat well with me because, as I said, lots of characters are heading towards this direction, and Daenerys herself only arrived at that place after having made many efforts to make amends, but they weren’t meant to last because some wars need to be fought on. It is a specific situation that will likely bring out her more violent impulses, yet it doesn’t define her character as a whole. I’ve read arguments about how the peace was worth it in Meereen and how Daenerys is now going backwards, but I simply disagree with them and, considering the pattern in the narrative and the anti-slavery ideas in Fevre Dream, I lean towards GRRM disagreeing as well (I’d really like to know if his main inspiration for Daenerys’ storyline was the American Civil War or the Iraq war, because knowing that would really clarify what he is trying to convey with her storyline). In any case, again, why is she the only character whose decision to fight the just (and inevitable) war is being framed as a step too far, a turn to the darkness?”

Because Dany is the only major protagonist by ADWD whose entire arc lingered on this question “should I use violence?” when the rest of the characters already made this decision (to choose darkness, as the fandom wants to call it) at the start of this book. Jon followed the mantra “kill the boy and let the man be born” as early as his first chapter. He privileged one child over the other, killing Janos Slynt with no shed of remorse, the situation of Cregan Karstark in the ice cells, etc. etc. We have Tyrion who narrated in graphic detail how he wanted to torture / violate Cersei. These characters are already in their dark turn by the time Martin opened up ADWD, torturing themselves over the path they chose, but still a decision that they are following through, whatever the cost.

It’s a different case with Dany, and why I consider her arc an inversion of the story itself, because she stopped following through this coded dark turn as soon as she saw what her dragons are capable of doing. The death of one child made her think closely about the horrors her dragons can actually bring. While we have major characters in the books who glorify the unparalleled power the existence of dragons promises, who almost automatically see them as necessary weapons and dream of having one or three themselves, it was Dany herself who gave us / voiced out a different picture entirely.

There’s an odd turn in her arc relative to the protagonists she’s supposedly paralleling with because by ADWD she already spent her time grappling with the destructive consequences of her darkness (as in, her dragons representing her choice for violence); her chapters a series of self-reflection / self-criticism that pushed her to take several steps back, reducing her political hold by a series of compromises, sitting on the ebon chair while the great masters feasted on her. When she was confronted with “should I use violence?” in the earlier pages of ADWD, she chose not to pay the price seeing how high the cost is, and Martin had her defeated by the end of it. In this case, her decision not to choose violence is her working backwards and, following my theory of inversion, it’s actually her dark turn.

I want to believe Martin wants us to stop making totalizing discourse when it comes to matter of violence by furthering Dany’s storyline in Essos, because if there’s one ethical dilemma that has been present in political thought as early as the 18th century (or even before this), it’s this: which particular case can we truly justify violence? And more often the answer is, during revolution. If Martin’s intention is to further affirm that Dany is wrong to choose violence as a necessary means to follow through her revolutionary fight (we also have to remember that her anti-slavery campaign is simply not to solve a particular social problem, but to topple the very superstructure [in Marxist / Gramscian sense] in Slaver’s Bay itself), then he only negated the message of Dany’s entire ADWD chapters. If Martin’s intention is to frame Dany’s decision to choose violence as ultimately negative by shifting the object matter / context from destroying the political apparatus in Slaver’s Bay to claiming the Iron Throne, and with it the shift from revolutionary war to that of a conquest (which like you said: an architectural choice to transfer Dany to where he wants her to be), it will carry highly negative implications that we both already touched upon. This shift in objective rather than approach is supported in-text because Dany embraced fire and blood through remembering the words of Viserys and Jorah (as she forgets the name of Hazzea, as she starts to cope up with this new trauma). (It’s also part of the larger irreconcilable contradiction unique in Dany’s arc that doesn’t only make her complex, but also makes us all doubt / second guess where the hell her story should be heading).

The most viable conclusion here that both maintains Dany’s characterization and Martin’s message is that she should have paid the price after all --use violence as a necessary means to end slavery in Meereen; to release her dragons and have the great masters understand fear. Because when Machiavelli said leaders should learn how to use fear, and aspire less to be loved, he clearly didn’t mean they have to be evil (according to Arendt it’s because the readers are just too shocked by his political theory that they don’t even read him properly!). It begs the question: why are we asking her to be a peacetime queen when they were clearly not in the period of peace? Dany already knew that; creating the illusion and convincing herself that she is already in peaceful time is a vital mistake on her part. The Iraq War analogy is overstated because the war is premised on an imagined enemy, creating an illusion and convincing the populace that we should have wartime leaders because we are supposedly in the age of terror, in the period of war. As we know that’s not true and how we criticize Bush (the father and the son), the U.S., for fabricating an enemy to justify the war, I happen to believe we also should be criticizing Dany instead for trying to be a peacetime queen in time of an actual ongoing terror.

It’s another matter all together, of course, if I am wrong and Martin actually wholesale rejects this well known “you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg (hint, hint!)” analogy to justify revolutionary violence that dominates Western political thought.

#daenerys targaryen #like I said I'll try to go down your questions and answer them properly as best as I can #though unfortunately not as fast as I hope #in case the humor is not that obvious Dany literally broke three eggs here guys!#this is also clearly a hill i want to die on #with how many times we tackle this issue lol #this is also not an invitation to further the jon vs dany or #—tyrion is the actual evil! that the fandom descended into #—i know we want to pin our grief over dany to someone or something #but looking at characters to blame is not it

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gascon-en-exil · 4 years

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Joining the Game Late: S7E5 “Eastwatch”

Synopsis

Jaime and Bronn surface. Dany offers terms of surrender, but Randyll won’t take them because xenophobia so she invites him and his son to a barbecue instead. Cersei is pissed that Olenna went out quietly. Jon pets Drogon - foreshadowing! - and also Jorah is back. Bran sees the dead marching on Eastwatch, and Sam has little luck getting the Citadel to give a damn about it. Varys drinks his doubts and Tyrion has a stupid idea that everyone’s on board with. The Stark sisters resume their old friction. The Lannister brothers have a meeting courtesy of Davos and Bronn, and Cersei knew but now she wants to be clever because she’s got another twincest baby on the way. Davos finds Gendry, and they almost get out of King’s Landing with bribes of money and crab aphrodisiac until Tyrion’s arrival necessitates that Gendry break out the hammer. Gendry’s also not into hiding himself around Jon, and they bond over their dead fathers(?). Sam steals some scrolls from the Restricted Section and flees with Citadel with his family after Gilly reads to him from a record of foreshadowing and bowel movements. Now Arya’s watching Littlefinger and sneaking into his room to find an incriminating scroll, but he knows that she knows. The Brotherhood is going north of the Wall too, and it’s awkward reunions all around in the fellowship of...breathing.

Commentary

Now we’re in the setup for a heist movie? Huh?

This is the turning point of Season 7′s main plot, where it pivots from the back-and-forth war between two queens for the Iron Throne toward the threat everyone faces in the form of ice zombies descending on Westeros. That’s not inherently a bad idea given the form the conflict escalation of the final season takes, but the execution is bizarre to say the least. It all hinges on Tyrion’s absolutely ridiculous idea of bringing a wight back from north of the Wall to prove to Cersei that the threat in real and they should all work together, and yet in a conversation with Jaime Cersei admits that their recent losses to Daenerys have already placed her in a more diplomatic mood. Shouldn’t Tyrion or Varys or somebody else have figured out that that was likely to happen with Cersei backed into a corner, with or without the whole proof of undead angle? Naturally she’d be expected to have some underhanded way of killing them all, but it’s strange that Dany uses her recent victory to gain a bunch of new followers (and roast some C listers - they really could have written Dickon out rather than recast him with how little he did this season) but won’t leverage it to discuss a temporary alliance with Cersei against the Night King.

And yes, the result is that Jon forms a crack team of not-dead men to venture beyond the Wall, composed of a random assortment of moderately-developed characters from all manner of storylines. I appreciate that Beric points out that all of them have tried to kill or been allies with people who’ve tried to kill each other in the past, but while I enjoyed the plotline pileup in Dany’s war council at the start of the season I’m less sure of it here. For one thing her new allies made some sense in coming together, as all of them were major political players with a vendetta against the Lannisters. Here it’s just a bunch of guys from all walks of life meeting semi-randomly for an expedition, some of whom have little to no knowledge of what it is they’re planning to do. I guess Gendry and the Brotherhood get filled in between scenes? One could also make an observation about the demographics of these two groups. Daenerys’s allies were principally women and physically marginalized men, representing - for lack of a better word - progressive stances: slavery is bad, women can be rulers, one’s grandchildren should not be imprisoned by religious fanatics and then blown up because one of them likes it up the ass, etc. Jon’s team by contrast is entirely male, no eunuchs and dwarfs and (probably) all straight unless they have to huddle together for warmth, and setting out on a mission not unlike the subject matter of certain male-dominated movie genres. That may not have intentional per se, but given the flak the show’s ending received for what it said about women and specifically women in positions of power it’s not a great look in hindsight.

Honestly I’m more invested in the Winterfell storyline at this point, which remains as more or less the only subplot that hasn’t been welded to something bigger yet. Sansa and Arya pick up their disdain for each other’s priorities right where they left off, making for a refreshingly mundane bit of sibling interactions that will nonetheless have major consequences. I didn’t pause and read the note that Arya found in Littlefinger’s room, but online commentary tells me that it’s the letter that Cersei had forced Sansa to write to Robb asking him to bend the knee to Joffrey. I take it that’s going to be the basis for a blackmail plot, or something to that effect.

#Game of Thrones #GoT

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hamliet · 5 years

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(1) Wow, I didn’t expect you to reply so quickly. Thanks!

(2) Hmmm…I see your points. Still, I’m flashbacking to Daenerys’ first meeting with Jon, during which she basically said she deserves the throne because she’s suffered. If she had said that in the context of her not wanting anyone else to be oppressed like she had been, hence her campaign to end slavery, then it would have been touching and inspiring.

(3) Instead, at that moment at least, she acted as if people like Sansa and Cersei didn’t suffer something similar to get where they are now. Or that Missandei and Grey Worm also suffered before she arrived (though the “white savior” undertones are problematic). Or that countless other nameless people suffered without ever getting the chance to seize power for themselves.

(4) I hope I don’t sound as if I’m demeaning what any of these characters have gone through, because no one should go through that.

(5) I also blame the writers for losing touch with Daenerys’ character. Somehow, Daenerys no longer feels like the same woman who let liberated Unsullied soldiers elect their new captain, expressed concern over the demeaning nature of their vermin-themed names, and respected Grey Worm’s decision to reclaim what was initially supposed to be a debasing name into one he took pride in.

You’re welcome! Thanks for being polite, and for sending asks! These are fun.

So, I think that conversation you reference--the “faith in myself” speech--does seem awkward, but my interpretation (yours may differ), it isn’t really if you look at what she’s saying in its context within the story, instead of our context as an audience where we’re privy to the character of Jon Snow. (I do think the show could have, idk, emphasized this more.) She, however, does not know Jon at all. She has been, as she said, sold, raped, defiled. She has had all kinds of men demean her and her worth, but she refused to let them define her. She believed in something better for herself, which to me is inspirational. When Jon arrives, she is not given a reason to think he would be different. I mean, men in power, to her, have seldom been anything by condescending and dangerous to her, so when he refuses to bend the knee despite arriving under that (reasonable) impression (and I don’t think Jon should’ve bent the knee at all lol so I am not blaming Jon, merely explaining different perspectives), she is pissed. Yeah, she does have a temper that she needs to, well, temper (heh). She had no reason to see Jon as someone different, until he demonstrates he is--and she demonstrates she is, by risking everything to save him because she trusts him.

I’m not sure what you mean by “that moment,” sorry! I’m going to guess it’s the speech? I’d say then she didn’t know Sansa then or Cersei; only that Cersei had just murdered a bunch of innocents in a sept in King’s Landing, and Missandei and Grey Worm--I’d actually have disliked if she described herself liberating them from their suffering because she’d be using them as props to make herself seem good, and respect that she didn’t invoke them and Davos and Jon asked Missandei for her story herself. The point when Dany freed them, which Missandei emphasized as well, is that people can choose their destiny. Dany’s worked for hers.

I disagree that she doesn’t seem like the same character--she does to me--well mostly. There are those laughably bad out of character stupid moments like forgetting the Iron Fleet (D&D: really?). I think empathy, conviction, and a fiery personality are all parts of Dany, huge parts. It can be argued that she knows what it’s like to be sold (though importantly not with the racial elements) so her freeing people is born from empathy. I def agree with you, however, that the white savior stuff is a massive problem and I get why that would turn people off to the character though.

Ambition, however, isn’t a bad thing. Sansa’s ambitious and honestly good for her; I do think she should insist on Northern Independence because she promised her people that. Men who believe they can save the world usually do in fiction; for women it’s usually a cautionary tale. If Dany’s turns out to be the latter I’ll be really disappointed.

Jon and Dany are marked opposites in certain ways; it’s a common Jungian trope in fiction to have love interests be anima (traditionally feminine qualities) and animus (traditionally masculine). That doesn’t mean scientifically or even sociologically what we think of when it comes to gender/masculine/feminine, but rather that it identifies patterns in literary love stories in terms of the characters used. Jon’s passivity is a telltale feminine trait (using that def of feminine!) and Dany’s ambition and temper are telltale masculine ones. I for one find it really refreshing--I love it when these roles are reversed. I think @argentvive has spoken about this as well in terms of how Jungian principles tie in with alchemy in literature as well, wherein Dany is more aligned with a role usually given to male characters, and Jon to female, but I could be wrong.

Again, this is all just my opinion, and I’m fine with people disagreeing! No one needs a reason to like or dislike a character, or favor one or another. I personally prefer Sansa as a character (I’m so sad people put them against each other, and the writers too! AUs till I die). But I love Dany too. I will also add that I am very sensitive to Daenerys negativity right now--not that this is negative (you’ve been great! it’s a fun discussion), but to other asks I’ve been getting. The facts are that the show might be completely ruining her character, and if they do that it’ll be a very painful blow, because it’ll effectively ruin all three of my favorites: Dany, Jon, and Sansa (my very fave), the latter two for their roles in her demise, and I’d be devastated. I’ll be in a better place to discuss this after Sunday if it turns out well as I am still tentatively optimistic it will, fingers crossed!

#ask hamliet #daenerys targaryen #jonerys #got #game of thrones #got meta #jon snow #jonerys meta #Anonymous

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turtle-paced · 7 years

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GoT Re-Watch: Fine-Toothed Comb Edition

Whoo, this took me a while. It’s a lot of counting, but I finally got it done. Next week, we’ll be all caught up!

6.09 - Battle of the Bastards

I still can’t believe the episode is actually called this.

Surface-level ridiculousness aside, there’s the matter of what this episode title actually says. And that is that the conflict of importance is between Jon Snow and Ramsay, who haven’t even met and whose sum total of interaction was one letter, the reading of which was more important to Sansa’s characterisation than Jon’s. Nor does this episode title keep the stakes of the battle in view - control of Winterfell, the righting of Bolton usurpation, the ability to mount an effective defence against the White Walkers.

I also want to say right off the bat here that Sapochnik can fucking direct. In this regard, both this episode and the next episode look fantastic. But much like the actors, there’s only so much he can do to prop up lazy, thoughtless writing.

(2:11-13) Deaths: 1, 2, 3.

(2:23) This is what I mean about good directing. Here we have a slow drawing backwards from the devastation in Meereen to Dany watching it all. Sapochnik’s direction makes Dany’s back more expressive than her face was at the end of the the previous episode, precisely because the shot choice makes it very clear what she’s looking at and from what perspective.

(2:55) I don’t understand this bit here. Rather than owning up to any mistakes, Tyrion is frantically and somewhat comically denying them. I think these few lines were supposed to be somewhat comedic, due to the dissonance between “the city’s on the rise!” and the repeated trebuchet impacts, but I don’t understand why. Tyrion’s failures here are significant. Logically, they should be affecting how he understands his own strategy in Meereen. No matter how you slice it, Tyrion’s failed massively here by not keeping an eye to the city’s defenses.

The other thing here is that this scene isn’t about Dany. It’s about Tyrion. Dany’s primary interest is defending Meereen and establishing her hold over the city; if that was the interest being catered to in this scene, Grey Worm and Missandei would be in the room helping formulate a strategy. Tyrion’s primary interest is validation from Dany, and so his selectively articulate opponents within her command structure have gone somewhere to do something else so that he has a clear floor to spin his actions unopposed. The tension here derives primarily from what Dany thinks of Tyrion. His standing is in jeopardy - oh yeah, and so is Meereen, incidentally.

(2:58) “The rebirth of Meereen is the cause of this violence. The Masters cannot let Meereen succeed. Because if Meereen succeeds, a city without slavery, a city without masters, it proves that no one needs a master.” This does not address Dany’s problem of a city under siege. This addresses Tyrion’s problem of a liege who is unimpressed with his actions. He’s not acknowledging failure and trying to fix it, he’s denying that there was a problem in the first place.

This argument doesn’t hold up as an excuse for what’s going on outside. If Tyrion anticipated violence as a result of his economic success, how is it that he’s manifestly unprepared for the fight? I’m not seeing a political genius at work here, nor a mastery of political and economic philosophy, I’m seeing self-serving ass-covering. More to the point, I’m seeing writers trying and failing to write characters smarter than they are.

(3:17) To which Dany replies, “Good.” This is a bit of a non-sequitur. Tyrion just gave her an if/then, and I have no idea what Dany thinks is good about it. Meereen’s success? The violence outside? Proving that nobody needs a master? The conditions Tyrion has argued exist? Grammar!

(3:23) Tyrion asks, “Do we have a plan?” Which one of them has been in the city all this time again? Who’s the one who’s met directly with the enemy’s envoys?

This also points to another shortcut to depicting intelligence that the writers have been taking - thinking of a good plan is hard. It’s much easier to show your smart characters are smart by having them poke holes in someone else’s plan. We’ve seen it repeatedly with Davos criticising Stannis, and Sansa criticising Jon Snow. Here we get another layer of ugly in that this dynamic is supposed to position Tyrion not just as smarter than Dany, but reasonable to Dany’s unreasonable.

(3:53) For the temporary convenience of Tyrion’s plot, the writers have decided that Jaime totally told Tyrion the full truth of what happened in King’s Landing at the end of Robert’s Rebellion. Jaime wasn’t using that characterisation anyway.

It also foreshadows the events of next episode. How convenient!

(4:35) Note that the scene ends just as Tyrion suggests an alternate approach, which is way better than Dany’s only you’re never going to hear him explain its merits, just ooh and ahh as it unfolds without a hitch.

(6:01) Unforseeable! Who would ever have guessed that the Mother of Dragons might consider using her dragons? What needed to be established earlier is that the Masters thought that the threat of using the dragons was a bluff, and that nobody would ever actually use the dragons on them. As it is, this looks like “oh shit! We just remembered! Dragons! With military applications!” The CGI work on Drogon is stunning, though.

As for the rest of the negotiations, yeah, I got nothing, incredibly clever to come to parley with the offer of no u.

(7:06) Nicely timed breaking out of the pyramid from Rhaegal and Viserion! They either read the script of heard the dramatic swell of Dany’s theme music.

(7:25) Deaths: another 5, bringing the total to 8. The Sons of the Harpy are having an impromptu slaughter outside the gates for some reason.

(7:29) Deaths: 10.

(7:31-32) Deaths: 11, 12.

(7:36) Deaths: 13.

(7:38) Deaths: 14, 15.

(7:42) How do these armies keep sneaking up on places?! Does nobody keep a lookout? And this is probably the season’s least egregious apparating army.

(7:56) Deaths: 16. Daario kills a Son of the Harpy.

The aerial shots of Dany and her dragons over Meereen are the highlight of the episode for me. It’s just such a nicely done action sequence in and of itself.

(8:32) Deaths: 18. Dany kills two sailors, turning Drogon on a ship.

(8:35-37) Deaths: 19, 20. Dany kills two more sailors.

(8:48) Deaths: 21. Dany kills a fifth sailor.

(8:54-55) Deaths: 26. Dany kills five more sailors, bringing her kill count to ten.

(9:01) Deaths: 27. Dany kills an eleventh sailor. It’s absolutely implied to be more, but that’s just the deaths I saw.

(9:13) Now that Tyrion’s dilemma is solved by persuading Dany that he was right, Grey Worm is totally amenable to Tyrion’s plans.

(9:54) Ditto Missandei.

(10:24) Deaths: 29. Grey Worm kills two of the negotiators, in quite flagrant violation of the terms of their pact themselves. Oh ho, aren’t they clever, killing two of the Masters when they said they’d just kill one. Guess everyone should know not to surrender to Dany. Seriously, by all means strip these people of their wealth, execute them for their slaving crimes afterwards, but these customs of parley have to be upheld and enforced or nobody can have a parley.

(11:40) “You don’t have to be here.” “Yes, I do.” I like that exchange. Good characterisation for both Jon and Sansa.

(12:29) Ramsay here mentions that Jon deserted the Night’s Watch. Anyone else? Anyone?

(13:36) Two things, one good, one teeth-grindingly typical flaw. The good - the way Ramsay keeps slipping “bastard” in to refer to Jon Snow. Shows his own insecurity, legitimate tactic to needle Jon. The flaw - “I keep hearing about you.” Footage not found, because this plot has been unforgivably rushed and strangely focused on people telling the Starks to rack off. They missed a step in their storytelling.

(14:05) This, I think, was actually one of Jon’s brightest moves all season. What does Jon lose by offering single combat? Nothing. What does Ramsay lose by refusing single combat? Well, if the writing was better, he should have lost respect at a critical time, as Jon points out. Compare Robb in season one, where he could safely refuse because he’d just proved his mettle in the field, changing the context of the offer so that accepting would have come across as hubris.

(14:24) Note Sansa participating in this conversation in spite of Ramsay’s presence and taunting.

(14:54) Note Sansa interrupting Ramsay with a death threat. And she rides off…before Ramsay says a damn thing about starving his dogs.

(15:17) Come to that, note Jon holding it together in spite of Ramsay’s repeated taunts about raping Sansa. Not the slightest hint of an outburst. All season, he’s kept it together well in this regard.

(16:07) Hey, it’s what Jon just mentioned! Military commanders in Westeros must be seen to be appropriately brave and daring and such, and only a solid track record of success (such as book!Stannis’ record) can help offset commanding from the rear. Therefore, there’s a political argument that Ramsay should consider starting the battle in the field rather than sitting it out behind his defensive fortification.

(16:17) Jon also engages in what should have been more foreshadowing - Ramsay’s army doesn’t want to fight for him. Thus far we’ve not seen the slightest hint of disloyalty, so this becomes another informed attribute, and again reflects poorly on Jon’s intelligence.

Sansa’s in the background looking unhappy.

(16:26) I hear that the shooting of this episode’s big battle was woefully mismanaged. I believed that the instant I heard it. You know why? Tormund’s concerned about Ramsay’s horses - not his disciplined infantry, which ends up posing much more of a threat to the Starks than anything else. Add that to Jon’s comments about an eleventh hour betrayal, I’m thinking this scene was scripted to set up a battle that wasn’t shot. If that’s the case, this scene needed to be redone.

(16:33) Jon says that “we’re digging trenches.” Not we will dig trenches. That’s in progress, apparently.

(16:48) Just so we know exactly the sort of manoeuvre Jon’s talking about, he puts it three different ways. Just go with the simplest version first.

(16:58) Establishing that it’s vital to hold position and make Ramsay charge. Also established: the need for the reserves to stay exactly where they are, so that when Ramsay does charge, he’ll be surrounded. Note that it’s Davos’ plan, not Jon’s.

(17:11) Man called ‘cunt’: 1.

(17:19) Jon talks about trying to make Ramsay angry, and Sansa sits in the background, glares, and says nothing.

(18:10) Sansa starts chewing out Jon for not asking her about Ramsay’s temperament. This is just. Just. It’s so lazy. It honestly makes my brain hurt how lazily and carelessly this scene was written.

Since she reunited with Jon, Sansa has been if anything more assertive than him in conversations with their advisors. Every political scene, save perhaps the ones with the Free Folk, has proceeded with Sansa willing, able, and welcome to contribute. Nobody on her own team has once tried to stop her talking - they haven’t always taken her advice, obviously, but nobody’s said “stop trying to help, Sansa.” The closest anyone’s come was Jon and his “you don’t have to be here” which is quite clearly based on the hurt she could suffer rather than how appropriate a woman’s presence might be in the discussion. This is supposed to be ‘sexist guys not asking Sansa for her expertise and opinion,’ but what I’m seeing is the men around Sansa quite reasonably assuming that if she had something to say, she’d speak up - like she’d been doing consistently and in far more interpersonally hostile situations, for the last half season. Including speaking up to Ramsay’s face a few hours before this scene.

It’s also apparent once again that nobody on Team Stark has talked to each other about anything of importance. They’re not even talking about the basic building blocks of a campaign with each other, things that both parties should know they need to discuss (needed to discuss, past tense, a few episodes back). I just keep coming back to the fact that it’s the writers who are ignorant, and haven’t been willing/able to compensate in a sensible manner. It’s all well and good to have these characters not agree and not get on very well, but this is some fake conflict right here.

(18:27) Sansa here makes a point of saying that Ramsay is better at manipulating people than Jon. True, but there was no need for the antagonism with which she said it. Seriously. If she’d honestly been slighted by Jon in the preceding conversation, I’d be way more sympathetic about catering to the male ego, but she wasn’t. Sansa’s picking a fight with Jon (and giving bad advice badly) for no better reason than the writers apparently want her and Jon to be rivals. Who gives a fuck about Sansa’s characterisation?

(18:48) Back to the point about Team Stark not talking about anything of importance - Sansa and Jon have not conferred about their siblings.

(19:04) Sansa’s claim that Rickon won’t live long in Ramsay’s care is somewhat undermined by the fact that Ramsay has kept Rickon alive for several episodes - and utterly ignores the fact that there’s good reason for not killing him in any way attributable to Ramsay. (If Sansa still believes “the North remembers.”)

(19:14) Like I said, this is lazily written. Sansa’s very, very upset about not being called on in class - but when Jon says “okay, Sansa, what should I do?” she says “I don’t know!” There’s no “he’s going to kill Rickon in front of you to make you charge him - be ready for it.” There’s no “he prefers to fight with a bow and shows favouritism to archers.” No “he’ll sacrifice ten of his own men to kill one of yours.” There’s nothing. No alternative course of action. No plan. No insight. Why wouldn’t Jon ignore the person whose only contribution is “you’re doing it wrong” with nothing to say about how it could be done better?

(19:30) Oh, and now we follow bad with worse!

One, Jon did let Sansa know his plans to attack Winterfell shortly, two episodes ago. She argued against it. She chose not to bring her strongest arguments to bear, and between that and not hearing back from the other Northern houses Jon (reasonably) decided that conditions were as good as they were ever going to get, and that they should think of a plan suited for a smaller force and do their best. “When will we have a larger force?” is an entirely valid question, and one Sansa needed to answer two episodes ago.

Two, Sansa’s still not offering anything better. If Jon had listened to her then they wouldn’t be in this situation now - but what does this do to fix the problem now, when all Sansa has to offer is “can’t help you, Jon!”

Three, and this is the big one. Sansa is lying. She has a good answer to “when will we have a larger force?” and is choosing to stay mum. If she tells Jon about the Knights of the Vale, he goes out there, rounds up some scouts, and sends them down the Kingsroad to meet and coordinate. He rejigs all their plans around stalling until the reinforcements arrive and getting into a position where Ramsay can be most effectively flanked by the Vale’s cavalry. I’ll come back to the consequences of this lie later. For now, I’ll just continue to hammer on the theme of Sansa lying because um reasons.

(20:19) “No one can protect anyone.” Strong, tough, cynical Sansa has seen the light…so to speak. It’s everyone for themselves. Collective action is futile and foolish. How I hate grimdark.

(20:55) Davos is sounding very anti-Stannis here, saying it was Stannis who defeated Stannis rather flippantly. Characterisation? Who needs that.

(21:19) Man called ‘cunt’: 2. In the context of Tormund telling Davos why he’s very very wrong to have cared about Stannis, of course.

(22:40) Melisandre sighting! It’s been a while!

(22:57) Jon goes to ask for advice from someone else and receives the helpful advice “don’t lose.”

(23:08) Also, legit dealing with Jon’s resurrection! It’s also been a while! It’s like he never died at all.

(23:31) In the ongoing saga of Mel’s humbling, she admits that she interprets the Lord of Light’s signs as best as she can.

(25:15) In the dark and the snow in the middle of the Northern countryside, Davos kicks over the exact log to reveal Shireen’s half-burned stag. What a coincidence. This may even remind him of who Shireen was.

(26:13) Theon making jokes about Tyrion’s height is also footage not found. Tyrion being an ass to Theon, on the other hand, that footage we can find.

Oh yeah, Yara and Theon are here now. They didn’t play any part in the battle that might have affected their characters or their relationship with others. They’re here to deliver ships. That’s all.

(26:52) “And [Theon] paid for it.” “Doesn’t seem like it.” Aah, mixed feelings! On the one hand, no, Theon has not faced the true consequenes of killing the orphan boys he passed off as Bran and Rickon. Unlike book!Theon thus far, show!Theon seems to appreciate the full gravity of the crime. On the other, I am so uncomfortable with the continued messaging that Theon deserved what Ramsay did to him and that he didn’t deserve to escape that treatment.

Also, notice how Dany doesn’t have a dedicated reaction shot. There is nothing to indicate to the audience that Dany is actively listening and forming her own opinions. She’s sitting in the background like a statue while Tyrion does the speaking.

(27:06) Dany first speaks here, after almost a full minute of Tyrion talking with Theon. Totally ignoring Yara, by the way. What a consummate professional. What diplomatic mastery.

The writers understand quippy dialogue. They don’t understand politics. And instead of trying to improve their understanding, they’re doubling down on dialogue that sounds nice and has no substance. While I’d normally be all for writers playing to their strengths as much as possible, this lack of understanding, and the focus on writing clever-sounding dialogue, is now opening up plotholes, inconsistencies, and implausibilities. It’s well past time to work on ameliorating the weakness.

(27:20) What went for Tyrion goes for Dany. They’re both ignoring Yara, even after they’re aware that Yara’s the one claiming. And why weren’t they aware of this going into this meeting? Um. Reasons. Please ignore the fact that neither Dany nor Tyrion did their homework.

(28:05) Theon continues to do most of the speaking, offering the military details and the narrative of how the Greyjoy siblings came to Meereen.

(28:25) There’s that sensitive nuanced representation I’ve been looking for! After the show revealed Yara was into women, she starts hitting on the very next woman to cross her path, no matter that this may not be the most appropriate time and place for flirting (while her brother does most of the talking about politics). Will this trend continue? Have you seen the season seven trailer? Plus queerbaiting, yay!

(28:51) “We’d like you to help us murder an uncle or two who doesn’t think a woman’s fit to rule.” “Reasonable.” I’m sorry, what? Is this exchange supposed to be feminist? How is this anything but a bad cartoon of feminism?

(29:32) Yara has become pro-reaving here. She wasn’t back in Volantis when she was paying the gold price for sex (with a slave), she wasn’t with Balon, she was in the Kingsmoot - script can’t decide whether Yara is Asha or Victarion.

(29:39) Ah, Yara waiting on a nod of approval from Theon.

(29:49) Unlike Theon and Yara, Dany did most of her political talking for herself. So naturally she looks back to Tyrion for a nod of approval. It’s a pattern. It needs to stop.

(30:06) In spite of Jon saying “we’re digging trenches,” present tense, in this aerial shot of the battlefield there is nary a trench in sight. Guys, I think they made massive changes to the shooting of the battle sequence and never bothered to redo the scene that sets up the battle sequence, accidentally making their protagonists look utterly incompetent in the process.

(30:34) Protagonist power denies all need for a helmet. But then again, Jon did have his face smashed into an anvil back in 4.09.

(31:00) Wun Wun is barehanded. He killed seventeen wights in a few minutes back at Hardhome once he had a club. Why would you give him a club now? Or a bow? Geez, maybe Jon wouldn’t have sent scouts to coordinate with the Vale Knights if he knew about them, if this is what he calls putting military assets to use.

(31:23) Ramsay’s 20 good men strike again, this time erecting a bunch of flaming Bolton crosses on the battlefield without the light giving them away. It has to be the 20 good men. Who else has that sort of skill?

Such wanton cruelty seems like it ought to be foreshadowing something…

(32:35) Ramsay led Rickon Stark, on a leash, through his entire army, and nobody batted an eyelid. No reaction. Not even the disapproving looks that Stannis burning Shireen garnered. The North Remembers!

(33:29) Poor Sapochnik’s got his work cut out for him here, trying to make Art Parkinson look shorter than Iwan Rheon.

(34:17) Ironically, and unacknowledged by the script, acting with such alacrity to try and save his legitimate half-brother is one of the best political moves Jon Snow could make. Bastard Jon charging selflessly across the field towards Ramsay Bolton in order to save the last (so far as anyone else knows) trueborn son of Ned Stark? Looks good by Westerosi standards! Very heroic! After that people would find it hard to say Jon didn’t care for his siblings and wasn’t doing his utmost for House Stark.

And, to be honest, I have rarely liked show!Jon more than in this moment, when he puts himself on the line for his brother. What follows is less good, but this itself was right and noble.

(34:30) Starks are too honourable to dodge arrows. This is the only explanation for the dead straight path Rickon takes to Jon.

(34:32) Ramsay starts firing arrows at the last known surviving trueborn son of Ned Stark, in what is clearly a cruel game, and nobody bats an eyelid at this either. The North Remembers!

(35:27) God I hate watching that. Thought Rickon was going to make it? You and everyone who hoped it is stupid. Including Jon Snow. He should have been smart like Sansa and written him off. Deaths: 30. Ramsay kills Rickon. Enjoy a few seconds of watching a young boy choke on his own blood as he dies inches away from his rescuer.

(36:30) Jon cracks and charges. After several seasons of actually being able to control his temper and emotions - including not responding to taunts about Ned, not chasing after Bran when he learned Bran was alive, and keeping it together when a man he knows raped his sister was making jokes about doing it again to her face - he cracks now because the plot demands he cracks. This is admittedly not the biggest stretch here, but I’m just saying, “Jon can’t control his temper” has been consistently untrue for the past few seasons, and breaks just when the narrative needs him to the most.

(36:34) Enjoy a few more seconds of a young boy’s dead body being riddled with arrows as he lies on the ground! Feel bad, everyone. Feel bad.

(37:27) Ramsay surveys what he has done and smirks. I don’t get the writing of this episode, I really don’t. Right up until the end of this episode, Ramsay has no setbacks, no failures. He’s plot-invincible. Here it means he uses the exact same battle plan as the protagonists, but better! Because he is the better plotter! And there is nothing the protagonists can do about it except throw more men at the problem. I don’t understand. I really don’t. The protagonists are already fighting the odds, the episode can work if they’re not also fighting their own incompetence.

(38:19) I do love the moment when Jon’s dramatic slow-mo is cut off and overtaken by the charge from his own side. Very nice. It actually makes me laugh! Yeah, he’s implausibly uninjured, but this is the man who only got a bloody lip from having his face smashed into an anvil.

(38:23-25) Deaths: 31, 32, 33, 34, 35. Not counting the horses. Poor horses.

(38:33) Deaths: 36.

(38:45) Davos mentions that if they fired they’d hit their own men, while Ramsay goes ahead and fires anyway. This is a well-executed contrast, and draws well from Roose Bolton’s tactics of firing on his own men in the confusion of battle (when those “own” men belong to his regional rivals). But again, it seems like Ramsay’s callous disregard for his people ought to be leading up to something…

(38:54-55) Deaths: 38, 39.

(38:58) Deaths: 40.

(39:02) Deaths: 41. I really like how this is shot, I really do. Unlike Dany’s sweeping aerial views of her conflict, this really gets to the confusion and chaos on the ground.

(39:07) Deaths: 42. Jon kills a mook.

(39:10) Deaths: 43. Jon kills a second mook.

(39:14-15) Then his plot armour kicks in again and he miraculously avoids a volley of arrows. Deaths: 44. Jon kills a third Bolton soldier.

(39:18) Deaths: 44.

(39:23) Deaths: 45. Jon kills a fourth Bolton soldier.

(39:28) Deaths: 46. And a fifth.

(39:39-40) Deaths: 47. A sixth and a seventh.

(39:49) Deaths: 48. And an eighth.

(39:52) Deaths: 49.

(39:55) Deaths: 50.

(39:59) Deaths: 51, 52.

(40:03) Deaths: 53.

(40:10) Deaths: 54.

(40:11-12) Deaths: 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60.

(40:17) Deaths: 61. Jon kills a ninth Bolton soldier.

(40:19-20) Deaths: 62. Tenth and eleventh Bolton soldiers.

Throughout all this, the action’s been punctuated by Ramsay calling “nock, draw, loose,” though we only ever hear “loose.” That bit of writing is good, the direction is excellent.

(40:26) Deaths: 63.

(40:29-30) Deaths: 64, 65, 66.

(40:35-37) Deaths: 67, 68, 69, 70.

(40:39) Deaths: 71. Jon kills a twelfth Bolton soldier.

(40:41) Deaths: 72. Jon kills a thirteenth Bolton soldier.

(40:44) Deaths: 73.

(40:45) Deaths: 74. Jon kills a fourteenth Bolton soldier, and he’s starting to sound a little tired and distressed.

(40:48) Deaths: 75. Fifteenth Bolton soldier down at Jon’s blade.

(40:49) Deaths: 76. Sixteenth!

(40:52) Deaths: 77, 78.

(40:54) Deaths: 79.

More importantly, we’re slowly panning out to reveal a giant pile of corpses. This…should not have happened. We saw that the battle was on flat-ish land. No river. No bridge. No rock formations in the way, no walls. Nothing. In medieval battles, these piles of corpses form when there’s a chokepoint of some description. Which isn’t present in this battle. The piles of bodies aren’t going to get that big without some sort of barrier, because without those barriers, the battle can move around the obstacle of the corpses, distributing them more evenly across the landscape.

But it looks cool and that’s all that matters, right? Right.

(41:06) Having established earlier in the episode that Davos hanging back is essential to Stark forces not getting flanked, he compounds Jon’s error by charging as well. It’s official - everyone in a position of power on Team Stark is incompetent. Jon got provoked despite being warned. Sansa’s actively sabotaging their chances of success by denying information. Tormund doesn’t know what a pincer movement is. And Davos is disobeying orders.

Davos even specifically gets off his still-living horse so he doesn’t have the advantage of being a mounted warrior on the field of battle. Amazing.

(41:12) We also cut straight to Ramsay watching this development and reacting to it. Like a battle commander might.

(41:43) Deaths: 80. Jon kills a seventeenth soldier.

(41:50) Deaths: 81. Tormund kills a soldier. He’s got a lot of catching up to do.

(42:19) Jon Snow (who hasn’t had a line aside from “hyah!” or “aaaaaaaaaargh!” for twenty minutes) and Tormund simply watch as the Bolton infantry forms an impeccable shield wall around their forces. This was supposed to be cavalry. They made do with infantry. It’s very silly, because doing this with infantry is so slow, it’s contingent on the entire Stark force taking a halftime break for gatorade and oranges while the Boltons get into position.

(42:24) The aerial shots only make it worse, because you can see how slowly this happens, comparatively.

(43:00) It’s nice that Ramsay’s had time to train up his peasant levies so well and found the money to outfit them with such wonderful, anachronistic tower shields. They do make a lovely shield wall, and move in an impeccably timed fashion.

Copy/pasting from historical battles does not historical accuracy make. Nor good historical synthesis into a fictional universe.

(43:01-3) Deaths: 82, 83.

(43:08) Deaths: 84.

This is supposed to be very serious, as the lack of music tells me, but it’s such a ridiculous development in the battle I can’t stop laughing.

(43:19) Deaths: 85.

(43:34) Deaths: 86. Jon kills an eighteenth soldier.

(43:40) Deaths: 87. Wun Wun kills a soldier.

(43:51) Deaths: 88. Tormund kills a second soldier.

(43:55) Deaths: 89. Jon kills a nineteenth soldier.

(43:58-44:00) Deaths: 90, 91. The Smalljon kills two Free Folk.

(44:02-06) Deaths: 92, 93, 94, 95. Truly amazing gout of fake blood on that last one.

(44:14) We’re depicting the horrors of war here, so have some shots of men with their guts hanging out, men with their legs chopped off, and blood everywhere.

(44:20) Deaths: 96. Jon’s twentieth kill.

(44:25) Deaths: 97. Wun Wun kills a second soldier.

(44:28-9) Deaths: 98, 99, 100!

(44:31-2) Deaths: 101, 102.

(44:35) Deaths: 103. Tormund kills a third soldier.

(45:11-2) Deaths: 104, 105. It’s pretty scary, how this implausible shield wall is backing the implausibly trapped force into the implausible mountain of corpses.

(45:17) Deaths: 106. The Smalljon kills a third man.

(45:19) Deaths: 107. Jon kills soldier #21!

(45:33) Previous establishing shots established the lack of room for anyone to run in this tight little circle of death. But Jon’s forces found the freedom to charge over him because drama.

(45:49) Deaths: 108.

(46:09) Implausibility aside, this moment where Jon’s suffocating is a well-executed one. With the muted audio, it really does feel chaotic and trapped.

(46:30) Deaths: 109.

(47:31) What’s that? A horn? I wonder what it could be!

(47:39) Deaths: 110. Tormund kills the Smalljon. Hey, he might be sixteen kills off the lead, but he did take out a named character/elite mook.

(47:48) Everyone called this moment.

(48:16) Littlefinger (and Sansa) save the day! Or, it’s supposed to be Sansa saves the day. It’s not. Sansa bears a hefty goddamn chunk of responsibility for the deaths today. There’s not much credit to be laid at her door and an awful lot of blame.

If she had told Jon about this force in 6.07, the batttle would not have taken place as it did, saving a lot of Stark-affiliated lives. If she had told Jon about this force earlier this episode, the battle would not have taken place as it did, saving a lot of Stark-affiliated lives. She knew what would persuade Jon to delay the battle, and she didn’t bring that information to bear. This is either stupidity or malice. Out-of-episode comments state that Sansa wanted the credit - so malice it is!

More blame should go to the writers, who created the situation where the only plausible in-universe explanations are stupidity or malice. This save would be just about perfect if Sansa had been in the Vale the whole time, totally isolated from Jon’s planning process, and only rocking up for the first time now.

(48:31) Ramsay looks shocked, shocked! At the fact that his perfectly planned battle has been wrecked by these last minute intruders. If only he had known that Moat Cailin fell at the start of the season! Or that there was a massive army marching up the Kingsroad, all sneaky like!

(48:41) And more to the point, Sansa got a lot of people killed right here. I have a nice picture to illustrate this.

Oops. There’s a reason the camera cuts away from this before you see the Bolton forces crumble.

(48:49) Deaths: 111.

(49:12) It’s time for the named characters to assault Winterfell solo!

(49:32) Deaths: 112.

(49:58) The downfall of Ramsay begins here, as he fails to process that the appearance of the Vale army means that he’s lost. Okay, this is supposed to be a Hitler-esque descent into madness and denial…but such a decision puts Ramsay’s psyche front and centre. What have the protagonists done to earn this victory?

(50:10) Far from betraying him, at the sound of knocking on Winterfell’s gate, Bolton men rally to defend themselves and Ramsay. The Night’s Watch didn’t do this when Wun Wun broke their gate.

(50:56-58) Deaths: 113, 114, 115, 116, 117.

(51:02-3) Deaths: 118, 119, 120.

(51:06-7) Deaths: 121, 122, 123, 124.

(51:20) Deaths: 125.

(51:32) Deaths: 126. Thought you’d seen the end of Jon reaching out to someone he cared about and Ramsay putting an arrow through them? Think again! Ramsay kills his second named character of the episode.

(52:02) This confrontation between Jon and Ramsay could also be spun in an extremely Jon-friendly way. I can definitely see how the average Northerner could come away from the battle thinking Jon was 100% the hero of this particular story. The viewer does not occupy the perspective of the average Northerner. Nor should most of the nobles participating.

(53:17) When Riverrun was retaken, after a mere two episodes in the location, it was the subject of a dramatic montage. Here we have Winterfell, the object of two seasons worth of campaigning, and the replacing of the banners is done in a few seconds, followed by a reaction shot of Melisandre. Because of all the people present, Melisandre would get the most satisfaction from seeing Stark banners on the walls again.

(53:29) Looks like Davos really did remember about Shireen! About time!

(54:00) Jon uses words! It’s been about half an hour since he had a line! That line also establishes that Ned’s bones were returned to Winterfell, because who cares about the ongoing plot thread that’s obviously going to culminate in Ned’s bones being returned to his home in honour and mourned properly by all his surviving children.

(54:31) Ramsay is injured. He’s bound.

(55:34) Wow, when Ramsay’s hurt, his villain lines take a turn for the corny. “You can’t kill me, I’m part of you.”

(55:59) I see the kennel door is open and there is a dog waiting there patiently for her cue. I checked with my editor, but he didn’t seem to think there was a problem with this.

(56:26) “You haven’t fed them in seven days. You said it yourself.” Continuity is a bitch. Literally, in this case. Sansa wasn’t there for that line. Did Jon give her a word-for-word after-action report?

(56:36) This is supposed to be what goes around comes around. Metaphorical and all. But nobody turned on Ramsay. His men fought for him to the death. Even in the battle we saw more Stark forces breaking and running than we did Bolton forces.

Nor was Ramsay defeated by the actions of any protagonist this season. Sansa spent most of the season lying, sabotaging Stark chances to win; Jon and Davos both made massive mistakes in the battle itself. What defeated Ramsay was a third army popping up out of “nowhere", maintained and motivated by Littlefinger for the past two seasons.

The protagonists did not deserve this victory, and Ramsay’s rise and fall were both dictated by the whims of the plot, rather than character writing.

(57:17) Deaths: 127. Sansa kills Ramsay.

(57:49) And Sansa smiles as she walks away, closing out the episode on the note of how empowering we should all find rape-and-revenge plots, rather than justice being done. I still firmly believe what I said here and here, when this episode first came out. These days this show isn’t just a bad show, it’s an immoral show.

Game of Numbers S06E09

Deaths: 127. Series high. It’ll stand for a single episode. Let’s break this down a bit...

Dany kills eleven sailors. Grey Worm kills two Masters. Daario kills a Son of the Harpy. Tormund kills three Bolton soldiers and the Smalljon. Wun Wun kills two Bolton soldiers. The Smalljon kills three Free Folk. Ramsay kills Rickon and Wun Wun. Sansa kills Ramsay, her first kill for the series. But it’s Jon who dominates this count, taking out a full twenty-one Bolton soldiers.

Woman called ‘cunt’: 0.

Man called ‘cunt’: 2.

#anti got #fine toothed comb edition #cw: violence #cw: rape #the climax of two seasons of terrible plots #season six

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themaesters · 7 years

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Can I ask for an opinion on Jon and Daenerys as a couple? (Showverse, bookverse, or both.) A lot of people seem to think that they are endgame, but I just can't see it. I've always seen them as very different people, with different values/ways of leading. I also can easily see Dany feeling threatened by R+L=J, as it presents a challenge to her claim, especially w/ Jon as KitN (show, future in books???) All in all, conflict seems more likely to me than romance, but apparently I'm in the minority.

We’ll be answering this in book context (though with some show context mixed in since you’re mentioning the show in your ask), since we’re likely to get answers on this front in less than a month for the show. Additionally, whether or not they are endgame is tricky to answer and will depend on the survival of both characters–which isn’t certain at this point.

I’ve always seen them as very different people, with different values/ways of leading.

They are both very different people, as crafted by their experience, but their leadership styles contain important similarities along with their differences which.

Both bend the institutions they lead in order to help those in need. In Jon’s case it is giving shelter to the Free Folk who are fleeing the Others north of the Wall; in Dany’s it is ending Slavery in Slaver’s Bay. They both must handle the fallout of those actions as well, since the institution fights back against their leadership: in Jon’s case you have his assassination; in Dany’s you have assassination attempts and the siege of Meereen. The fact that both of them are willing to throw institutions out the window to help those in need is a vital point of comparison for it shows that they are both driven by an idealistic compassion, and that when things are bad, it is the helpless who suffer first.

Jon’s learning of leadership stems from the north: from his adoptive father, from Jeor Mormont, from Mance Rayder and the Free Folk, and from his tenure as Lord Commander of the Knight’s Watch. Daenerys learned leadership from the Dothraki and from Slaver’s Bay. [There is an inherent racism to the nature in which Martin crafted her arc in which both the Dothraki and the residents of Slaver’s Bay are stepping stones to Westeros.]

What is also important for both is that they are both learning on the job. Daenerys is learning as she goes how to handle the political snares she has made for herself. Furthermore, both are frustrated at how slowly those around them are learning to adjust to their leadership–whether rightfully or wrongfully. In Jon’s case, it becomes a major pain point:

They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII, ADWD)

The reason we bring both of these two things up is that these, more than what their political values are, are what’s going to determine whether they can work through conflict towards a common goal. Their youth and experience has taught both to listen, but it also means that they both are still learning, while also seeking to champion those who need them. There is likely to be initial conflict–there always is when you get two people in a room who have never met and who have needs that are different than the other. But it is clear that Martin is setting up both to be heroic in the war against the Others (and has even berated those who posted a wish that Dany would die at the end of the series on his notablog). And he has equipped both with the capacity to work through their differences and to have a very similar thing that makes them tick which will be vital common ground for them.

I also can easily see Dany feeling threatened by R+L=J, as it presents a challenge to her claim, especially w/ Jon as KitN (show, future in books???)

In the event that Jon does become King in the North in the books–not out of the question, by any means–then our guess is he’s going to be doing his best to shore up alliances with those outside his house. The north suffered heavily from the War of the Five Kings: many of their fighting men were killed at the Red Wedding or are being held hostage; their harvest was not as bountiful as it should have been because many men went south and there was disagreement over how much to set aside; and of course the army of the undead coming down will hit them first and hit them viciously. Jon will know all this if he is crowned and will need help from the outside if he wants his kingdom to survive.

For Dany to feel threatened by R+L=J, she’d have to know about R+L=J, and it’s important to note that very few people know about that, even if the reader can guess. Howland Reed knows, and perhaps his children--though that is not necessarily a given. Benjen Stark likely knows. Bran–with his windows into the past–may find out. But that’s it. The shoe will likely drop and at an inconvenient moment because that’s what makes for interesting reading, but far more likely to cause initial conflict for Dany and her reign is the fact that–if Jon is King in the North–the North is declaring an independence within the kingdoms she sees as her birthright. In the event that Jon isn’t crowned, it’s even harder to know what circumstances will be like when they meet, but if he’s not a king, and she doesn’t know that R+L=J, then they won’t be meeting as political equals–at least in the sense of titles and so Jon can’t be a threat to her claim anymore than someone like Cersei (indeed, he’d be a good deal less of a threat than Cersei).

All in all, conflict seems more likely to me than romance, but apparently I’m in the minority.

Lastly–We don’t see why it can’t be both. Jon is a careful military ruler and he knows the threat that three dragons can pose and he may not want to oppose her militarily even if they might have political conflicts to begin with. There is a great deal of pride in the north that Torrhen Stark knelt to Aegon the Conqueror and none of his men died. If Jon doesn’t oppose her militarily, that means we may get many arguments. Stannis’ stay at the Wall is a sign that Jon doesn’t take the demands of a ruler and run with it. But if that’s a start point and they work towards a common goal when fighting a war against the undead, it’s certainly not off the table that they might become lovers at some point.

#asoiaf meta #meta #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #jon x daenerys #anonymous

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snarktheater · 7 years

Text

Series review — Game of Thrones (Season 7)

Yeah, just because I decided not to snark every episode individually this year does not mean I'm happy about where Game of Thrones is headed any more than I was last year. It's actually kind of worse. Season 6 felt somewhat better than 5, but this is a nosedive. And the problem is, it's not exactly a nosedive in quality, which makes it increasingly frustrating to talk to people who still like the show. Not that it hasn't been frustrating for the past few years, but it certainly got worse.

But hey, who am I if not the guy who hates the cool stuff? Well, I'm still a lot of other things, but for the sake of the joke, let's pretend otherwise and talk about this season. This mercifully short season, yet still too long, in that it exists at all.

When I review something, I like to stay as nuanced as possible, which usually means being very…wordy. But when it comes to this show, I can easily summarize what went wrong. Namely: the showrunners ran out of books to adapt, and they did not understand the story they were making in the first place.

I'm not saying that as a book fan butthurt that they changed things (although…I am that too, kind of). This issue should be apparent even if you did not read the books. Because the show has basically become a completely different story. I'm gonna have to go on a tangent to explain this further, so bear with me, please.

A few years ago, South Park made a triple (triple!) episode mocking Game of Thrones (and promoting their then-upcoming video game). The main point of criticism they threw at the show, aside from daring to include male frontal nudity (which…you know what, it's stupid and I won't go there), was "when do the dragons show up?" There was a measure of self-awareness, since it was children asking that question. And yet, to someone like me monitoring people's reactions…it seemed to be a recurring one. When do the dragons show up? When do the White Walkers attack and we fight them?

But the show was adapting the books with relative consistency at the time. I could forgive minor changes, because I try to keep an open mind to adaptations and give them a shot at telling their own story and adapting to the new medium. So I let it slide. And the dragons or White Walkers showed no signs of coming sooner than the books planned, so it was fine.

However, if there's one impression season 7 has left me with, it's that the lovingly-called D&D (the show's creators) were probably those little boys asking "when do the dragons show up?" They had to bide their time, but as soon as they ran out of books, they made their move to get to "the cool stuff". Or what they perceive as such anyway.

Now, Benioff and Weiss are not completely incompetent storytellers (…I don't think. Yet). So this paragraph above is an oversimplification. They merged characters and plot lines in season five, leading to the horrendous Sansa marrying Ramsay moment, and padded others like Jon's to get everyone roughly on par. Then season 6 worked towards one goal: blowing. Shit. Up.

Literally, but also metaphorically. With the Sept of Baelor, all of Cersei's political enemies were wiped out in one fell swoop. Dorne was taken over and made its moves. The Ironborn were brought back to be relevant and immediately split into two neat factions. Arya completed her training but also retained her identity and went back home. Daenerys breezed her way through gathering all Dothraki under her command, and Meereen's pacification was wrapped up by her and her entourage. Jon was brought back to life and unified the North, and even became King!

For a show that had been able to maintain a dozen plot lines, some of them seemingly unrelated safe for taking place in the same world, Game of Thrones sure did a good clean-up job. Season seven barely even has multiple plot lines running in parallel at all.

And the problem is, this creates a binary, dichotomic story. The framing is clear: in Daenerys and Cersei's fight for the crown, we should root for Daenerys because she's "hope for a better future" while Cersei is ambitious and ruthless and doesn't care for the people. Every major player but Jon has chosen a side, and of course, all the sympathetic characters are in favor of Daenerys. And Jon is all about saving the entire world from the White Walkers. And of course, guess who he goes to ally with early on in the season too. But we'll talk about Jon in a moment.

A Song of Ice and Fire isn't a dichotomic story with clear-cut good and evil. Hell, Game of Thrones wasn't one either. Even the Others/White Walkers aren't evil; they are simply death, which plays into bigger themes about what makes life meaningful. But in this season, we have a clear "Jon and Dany good, Cersei bad, White Walkers worse" thing going on.

This is what I mean when I say it's a different story. Thing is, it's a story I could actually like. For the longest time, my number one favorite books was The Wheel of Time, and in many ways, this season has a similar structure to the later books of that series, with factions being forced to come together and ally against evil. We even have the Cersei-esque antagonistic faction.

Problem is, The Wheel of Time was aiming that way the whole time, and it built up the dynamics so they could end there. While I don't doubt that A Song of Ice and Fire will at some point feature a battle against the Others, I sincerely doubt that the lead-up to it will be as simple as "all the sympathetic characters decide they should fight them together because it's the good thing to do".

Another issue with this polarization of the previously grey morality is that characters drift away from who they were. Daenerys is the most blatant example: the season even has trouble at times reconciling her established character with who they want her to be, so she's torn being hope for the future and being…a woman who wants to conquer a land because she views it as her birthright. The showrunners have apparently forgotten that Daenerys's opposition to slavery was driven from personal experience, not her innate desire for social justice everywhere.

But of course, the worst part of falling into the Good versus Evil cliché fantasy story is that…that story has a very clear protagonist. Which the show didn't have. Or, rather, every time a character looked like the fantasy protagonist, that character died (see Ned and Robb Stark).

So it's baffling, and somewhat infuriating, what is happening with Jon Snow. Not only is he confirmed again (repeatedly) as Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark's son, as per the popular fan theory. Not only is he King in the North. No, now the showrunners have added that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, y'all. He annulled his previous marriage, and Jon's real name is Aegon Targaryen, and he's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, even before Daenerys!

Oh, also, because he's now the Bland Male Fantasy Protagonist, he's not just the lost heir to the throne, he also gets a love interest in the form of the prettiest, highest-ranked girl of around the same age available. Also known as Daenerys. Her aunt.

Okay, there's a lot to unpack there, and I won't even touch on the incest as a moral issue because…I don't really care about that? I do care that the showrunners have once more taken Dorne as their victim, though. I mean, that annulled previous marriage is with Elia Martell of Dorne, a woman of color who had two kids with Rhaegar. One of those kids was named Aegon. Their death fueled the Martell hatred towards the Lannisters, but hey! No big deal at all, let's just pretend Rhaegar would just name another son of his the same way.

No, I don't think it's a coincidence that the showrunners are sidelining a woman of color's relationship with a major backstory character in favor of a white woman. I don't think they're actively racist, but I am fairly sure that that decision is motivated by racism. Unless it's motivated by sexism, of course! After all, the other biggest victim in that is Daenerys, since every argument she has for claiming the throne would also give Jon precedence.

There's another problem with Jon, though, regardless of all of that. Specifically, he's…a Mary Sue. Yeah, shocking, I know, the Bland Male Fantasy Protagonist is made into a Mary Sue. Who knew!

So after establishing Daenerys doesn't take well to defiance, Jon shows up, and…defies her, refuses to acknowledge her as his queen, and gets away with it. That last part being the one I take umbrage with, just to be clear. Then he sticks around to try and convince her to help against the White Walkers, and…he does. Even though Daenerys has everything to lose in that process and the show even built a scene in the second-to-last episode of the season where Dany sees the White Walkers and realizes the threat they post?

Oh, but it gets worse. That second-to-last episode is impossible to summarize in how many events should lead to Jon's death, but don't. He makes one mistake after another, survives everything, gets one of Daenerys's dragons killed, and yet not only is she an even stronger ally, but she also falls for him over this.

Just to be clear, the issue here isn't Dany falling in love with Jon. Well, it is, but only in so far as Jon faces no consequences for his errors, and instead, gets his way. Literally: the season ends with Dany renouncing on taking the throne until the White Walkers are dealt with. If there's anything more Mary Sue than doing everything wrong and facing no consequences for it, I…haven't heard of it yet.

It would be bad anywhere, but it's especially bad in a show where a man of honor (Robb Stark) fell in love with a woman and rallied her to his cause once led to him dying. And the thing is, I don't even like that they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa, because it completely undermines the tragedy of Robb's character arc (book!Robb dies because honor is his fatal flaw and he had to marry Jeyne for honor; show!Robb dies because he couldn't keep it in his pants). But that change means there's an even starker precedent for why, if this was still the same story, Jon should die.

And yet…this is also exactly what I'm worried won't happen. Because Jon is now our Bland Male Fantasy Protagonist/Mary Sue, the chances of him dying are…fairly low. The issue is: he is now fucking his aunt. While I wouldn't put it past the show to revel in that (they have dabbled in Targaryen exceptionalism…a lot), I think the backlash might force them to kill the ship, even if it hadn't been the plan. So who will die: the Bland Male Fantasy Protagonist, or his love interest who can give him ManPain™ by dying? Yeah, I know where I'm placing my bets. And just for the record I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

Jon is a microcosm of all the things that went wrong. Another example is the Lord of Light, who this season is treated a whole lot like the "one true religion". Characters eventually all start acting like they all serve the Lord, and…do I really need to finish my thoughts or can I just end here and say "Christianity"? Because it sounds like that's what they're going for, and that they're also equating that with being good, and once again erasing all the moral complexities of the various religions in the world of ASOIAF/GOT. Bonus points because Jon was brought back to life by a priestess of the Lord of Light, effectively making him a literal "chosen by god" trope.

This season was…well, unfortunately, it was exactly the sort of hackneyed developments I expected from the show based on the past two seasons. And yet it's also kind of worse? I just really want this to be over. I also really want to come out of this still able to like the books.

It does make me temper my expectations for whenever that Wheel of Time adaptation comes out, though. Is that a good thing, remind me not to overhype myself for other things? I'll take it as a silver lining. Another silver lining being that I can stop thinking about Game of Thrones until…whenever the final season comes out.

#game of thrones #A Song of Ice and Fire #got #asoiaf #david benioff #d.b. weiss #series #TV series #review #reviews #series review #series reviews #st: series reviews

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rainhadaenerys · 3 years

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Sansa stans keep criticizing Dany for literally every breath that she takes, and keep insisting that Sansa is "smarter", "better ruler", "better politician", etc. And this just makes me curious to know how they think Sansa would have acted better than Dany.

Like, let's say Sansa was in Dany's place and was forcibly married to Khal Drogo. Since Dany is so evil for "owning slaves" while she was married to Khal Drogo, what would Sansa do if she was in Dany's place? How would Sansa avoid being a "slave owner" that they accuse Dany of being? Then Khal Drogo and his khalasar attack some villages, take slaves and rape women. According to Sansa stans, Dany taking the women as her slaves is evil because she is not really saving those women, and therefore Dany deserved to be betrayed by Mirri. So what would Sansa do in Dany's place? What does Sansa do differently to "truly" save those women from the Dothraki?

Then let's suppose Sansa gets to Slaver's Bay and sees how dehumanized the slaves are. What does Sansa do, since Dany's way was clearly evil? Does Sansa just see all the slaves and leaves them there, since violence to free slaves is evil? Or since Dany's attack against the slave masters in Astapor was evil, does Sansa buy only the slaves that she could afford and then frees them, but leaves all the rest of the slaves behind, still enslaved? And what does Sansa do with these handful of slaves that she freed? I mean, Sansa stans say that Dany allowing the Unsullied to follow her is wrong and clearly makes her a slaver who is just the Unsullied's new master. So Sansa obviously can't do what Dany did, because what Dany did is evil. Since letting the Unsullied follow you and using them as your army is wrong, would Sansa just leave the Unsullied behind, to live their own lives? But wouldn't this just leave these Unsullied vulnerable to being recaptured and re-enslaved if they're no longer organized as soldiers? What does Sansa do to protect them then, since using the Unsullied as soldiers is wrong? How does Sansa build a new life for them?

Since Dany attacking and conquering Yunkai and Meereen is also evil because it involves violence, what does Sansa do to free the slaves in those cities? She just… doesn't free them? Because I guess letting people remain enslaved is still more moral than using violence? Or does Sansa make pacific protests in front of those cities? How would this even work? Does anyone actually believe the slavers would just end slavery because some random girl was making a peaceful protetst? Oh, and if Sansa doesn't conquer either Yunkai or Meereen (because violence and conquering is evil), where does Sansa find the resources to feed the former slaves that she freed? Does she buy food from those cities? But how would she buy food, if she already spent the money she had in buying the slaves that she freed? Does Sansa just leave them behind to die, since she can't feed them (and taking the cities to feed them would involve violence, so Sansa clearly can't do that).

Ok, now let's supposed that Sansa does decide to conquer Meereen to feed her people like Dany did. How does Sansa do it better than Dany? I mean, we clearly know that Dany's way was evil and incompetent. Dany ended slavery in Meereen and didn't build a completely new economy out of nowhere in a single day. But Sansa is clearly smarter, more educated, more gracious, and more moral than Dany. So Sansa would clearly find a better way, right????

So how does Sansa manage to take Meereen without violence? Dany punished the rapists, looters and murderers in her army. But clearly that wasn't enough, Dany should have been competent enough to stop all of her soldiers from looting, raping and killing. So how does Sansa, the smartest politician evah, do to control every single person in her army and stop them from looting, killing and raping? Sansa is better than Dany, so Sansa would clearly find a way to avoid all of that, right??? Also, what does Sansa do to stop the slaves from revolting and killing and raping their former masters? Sansa is so superior to Dany, she would have clearly found a way, right???

Now, let's suppose that some Meereenese come to Sansa asking to sell themselves into slavery. Dany allowing it was clearly evil, so Sansa obviously won't allow it, because Sansa is superior to Dany. So what does Sansa do to stop them from asking to sell themselves? Remember, the Meereenese who ask to sell themselves were gently born and lived lives of luxury, and wanted to sell themselves to live in luxury as prized educated slaves. For Sansa to stop them from wanting to sell themselves, she needs to give them the kind of luxurious life these people were accustomed to. So how does Sansa do it? Does she just… take money from the city to pay for the luxury of these people, all to avoid them asking to sell themselves? But what about all the poor people in Meereen? If Sansa is going to pay some people a life of luxury, then she should do this for everyone, right? How does Sansa manage that? Does she plant a magic tree that grows money?

What about the people who come to Dany for justice? They would come to Sansa as well. Remember, there was a son of a master that comes asking for a former slave to be punished for killing and raping his mother. Dany had declared a pardon for all the crimes committed during the sack, but Sansa stans have clearly decreed that this was wrong and evil. So what does Sansa do? Does Sansa go around killing all former slaves accused of crimes when they revolted against their masters? And how does Sansa avoid the complete political chaos that would arise from that? How does Sansa stop the former slaves from turning against her? Sansa is clearly a political genius, so I guess her huge brain would devise a strategy that would allow her to kill slaves who rose against their masters, all without the former slaves turning against her and all without creating chaos and violence in Meereen. Suuuuure. Because Sansa is clearly a genius and clearly a more morally correct person than Dany, so she would have found a magical way, of course.

And what does Sansa do when a former slave comes asking the former master to be gelded for raping his wife? Dany refuses to punish, because at the time it happened, the crime wasn't illegal, and if she granted this she would have to geld every man who ever slept with a sex slave, meaning that she would have to geld almost everyone in Meereen. But Dany was clearly evil and wrong in her decision. So I guess… Sansa would have granted the request and gelded the man? But then, what would Sansa do when former sex slaves started coming to her all asking for their former masters to be gelded? Would Sansa go on a hunt across Meereen in order to geld all the rapists? But wouldn't this be too violent, and isn't violence evil according to Sansa stans? Also, wouldn't this kiiiiinda cause a huge political chaos and create more war within the city? How does Sansa manages to punish all the rapists without creating political chaos? Or maybe… Sansa could imprison them all? But to imprison all the people who ever slept with sex slaves, she would have to build prisons, wouldn't she? I doubt there's all that space ready in Meereen. So how does Sansa do that, in a short span of time? And how does Sansa manages to capture all the rapists in Meereen? I mean, surely the former masters would fight back against this. So how does Sansa do this, and all without creating chaos and violence in Meereen? I guess the better solution would be to have been conciliatory and not gelded men who slept with sex slaves when slavery was legal, but then Sansa would have been just as evil as Dany…

Ok, now, how about the economy? Sansa stans say that Dany was incompetent in not rebuilding an entire new economy in the time span of one week, so how would Sansa manage that? How does Sansa end slavery without creating any economic problems (considering that slaves were the only thing Meereen exported)? Does Sansa plant magic beans that grow in a single night? Does Sansa buy teleportation machines in order to travel across Essos to negotiate trade deals with different cities? And how does she even convince the slave cities of Essos to trade with a city that just ended slavery? I guess Sansa super charm and courtesy magic would have made them all want to be friends with her, right? Or maybe Sansa just negotiates with Braavos… but for that to work in such a short span of time (remember, Sansa needs to rebuild the economy in one week) Sansa needs to use that teleportation machine, or else she can't get to Braavos. Also, what will Sansa even trade??? Meereen had nothing but slaves and olives to trade. The slavers burned the olives, and Sansa ended slavery, so wtf would she trade? Oooops. My bad. I forgot Sansa had magic seeds that made crops grow in a single day. I guess Sansa can trade those magic crops. Or maybe… Sansa ends slavery gradually, in order not to collapse the economy? But that would make Sansa a slaver, wouldn't it? How does she justify forcefully keeping people in bondage for the sake of the economy? Also, how do the slaves not rebel against her when she refuses to free them all for the sake of the economy? And how does she force the slave masters to give up their slaves when the time finally comes?

Ok, but now let's pretend Sansa indeed had a perfect plan to end that was so much better than Dany. Where is the evidence in the books that Sansa would do a better job than Dany? Where are the book quotes that show Sansa's understanding of economics, "pacific" (?) military tactics, how to end slavery…? And remember, if Sansa was in Dany's place she wouldn't have a formal education and wouldn't have Littlefinger's training.

Let's face it: Sansa stans just want to criticize Dany for whatever reason and to claim that their fave is better, without even thinking if their fave would have done things better or what she would have done, or if there's even evidence that Sansa would be better than Dany. And the same goes for show!Sansa by the way. I see Sansa stans talk about how "if Sansa went to Dragonstone instead of Jon, she would put Dany in her place" (because obviously, Sansa is sooooo much smarter), and yet I haven't seen anyone explain what would be Sansa's plan to "put Dany in her place" and defeat the army of the dead without Dany's help, or how would Sansa manage to get Dany's help without bending the knee and at the same time disrespecting Dany (since they want Sansa to "put Dany in her place"). This political genius Sansa really only exists in their minds, and they aren't even smart enough to come up with actual concrete plans on what Sansa could have done that is better than Dany.

#fandom wank #daenerys targaryen #anti sansa stans #fandom meta #rambling

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