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cycas · 3 months

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My apologies for the random question, but I loved your in-depth analysis about Galadriel I just read. Blame it on how my brain works, but I was curious if you have any theory about Oropher's fatal military decision that sealed his fate? Tolkien's description paints him in an unfavourable light, leaving the impression he acted on some petty impulses rather than making a strategic decision that made sense to him.

"...Oropher had the wisdom to foresee that peace would not return unless Sauron was overcome. He therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lórien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle. The Silvan Elves were hardy and valiant, but ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. Their losses were thus more grievous than they need have been, even in that terrible war.

Malgalad and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead Marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance. Thranduil his son survived, but when the war ended and Sauron was slain (as it seemed) he led back home barely a third of the army that had marched to war. ... 1. Malgalad is another name for Amdír; this passage contains its only use." -- Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

I think this is the bit anon means.

Oropher in this account mirrors Gwindor at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; rushing forward before the command is given, but while Gwindor is deliberately driven to break the line by watching his captured brother tortured to death in front of him, there's no reason given for Oropher's early rush into battle.

I think it also mirrors at least one historical battle: the battle of Hastings in 1066. The historians are still arguing about exactly why Harold's men broke the line there, and what effect that had.

That might be a good place to start for sources justifying and explaining Oropher's decision to start the battle.

It could be that Oropher, like Gwindor, saw a beloved captive dismembered. It could be that Oropher was tricked, in the way that, possibly, Harold's army was, by a false retreat - or even saw a real opportunity that genuinely made a difference to the war, but paid a heavy penalty for it.

Wood-elves seem to use bows a lot: maybe they were firing on the army in front of them when it began to retreat, like the Norman cavalry at Hastings who retreated (maybe) from the arrows of the Saxon archers holding the high ground, and the Saxons followed them.

Maybe Oropher knew about Gwindor's great charge at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, how he made it all the way and beat upon the doors of Angband, but could not break in. Perhaps Oropher thought that if he was fast enough, he could follow Mordor's armies right into Mordor, and break the siege that way.

That might fit with a lightly-armoured, fast-moving way of operating, and you can also imagine that heavily-armoured Noldor and Numenoreans used to a different style of fighting did not understand what Oropher tried to do. Or maybe he genuinely didn't have much experience with pitched battle, and made a terrible mistake. Maybe he DID have lots of experience with pitched battles, and still made a mistake.

I might write about this one day, from Amdir Malgalad's point of view, since Amdir is one of my lesser known favorites.

Not sure if Anon will still spot this, but I only just got time to reply.

#Oropher #Amdir #Dagorlad

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influencerpippin · 1 month

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wait wait wait. im going full conspiracy board mode here. i stumbled across this

amdir being a sindarin word for hope, often contrasted with estel, another type of hope. amdir and estel, two rangers, one taken too soon by evil to suffer a fate worse than death, the other being the rightful heir to gondor's throne.

was this deliberate on mordor's part? had they heard tales of the king of gondor walking the land as a ranger, withholding his true name and simply being known as "hope"? did they attempt to squash said hope by morgulblading that guy so theres no way he could be king, except they got the wrong guy?

i recognize he was probably just named like this in order to Have Some Guy for the intro quests to get players invested but. somehow he kind of mirrors aragorn here and i'm left wondering

#lotroposting #and more importantly #amdirposting #lotro #lord of the rings online #amdir #shoutout to my mutual not even asking who that guy is and me explaining anyway so i could look up Cool Facts on That Fella #<3

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tathrin · 7 days

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I'm working on some Background Timeline Nonsense for my Celebrimbor In The Fellowship AU fic and trying to put together stuff in a way that both makes sense and is fun (and reconciles some of the Unfinished Tales mess). I've already blathered at poor @babybat98 about this, but I figure I might as well subject the rest of you all to it share it here too, in case anyone has Thoughts or Suggestions:

A Timeline of the Lords of the Woodland Elves.

506 F.A. Doriath is sacked (about 30 years before the Third Kinslaying at Sirion).

By 511 F.A., refugees from Gondolin and a few Drúadain joined them there, and by 525 Earendil and Elwing were wed and ruling the Havens of Sirion.

539 F.A., the last of the Fëanorians show-up in Sirion and do their usual silmaril-slaughter, and Elwing jumps off the cliff. The Havens are left in ruins, and Morgoth has control of all Beleriand, blah blah blah.

545 F.A. the Host of the Valar land in Beleriad. The War of Wrath begins.

590 F.A. Morgoth defeated, War of Wrath ends, First Age ends. *Galadriel probably doesn't actually marry Celeborn until now, possibly because of the whole "don't marry during war" thing the Calaquendi tend to do? unclear, because everything involving them is unclear lmao

1 S.A. the Grey Havens are built in Lindon, the only place in Beleriand that really survived the War of Wrath.

By 20 S.A. Galadriel and Celeborn leave Lindon, where Gil-galad is now king (probably crowned because of Galadriel's influence somehow? Unclear, again!). Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eriador and dwell near Lake Nenuial, where they are accounted "the Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador" according to one version of the Unfinished Tales. They have a lot of Noldor, Grey-elves, and Green-elves with them at this time. Now for the fun backstory stuff...what if we say that Celeborn, Oropher, and Amdír were all basically BFFs from their youth in Doriath, and will remain thus for many years before the eventual splintering around 750 S.A.?

So, as of S.A. 10-20 when Galadriel and Celeborn leave Lindon, what if we say that Amdír and Oropher are with them also at this point, and with them their sons? They can be part of the company of mingled Noldor and Iathrim who are mentioned there at Lake Nenuial, with Celeborn (relative of Thingol) and Galadriel (sister of Finrod) as the "highest ranking" of their little quartet, and also the ones (especially Galadriel) who care the most about rank/leadership, and thus fall naturally into that role both in behavior and in the eyes of everyone around them, while Amdír and Oropher are more advisors/etc (maybe they end up in charge of guarding everybody, as the Warriors of the group). Amroth could be as young as 110 right now if he was just a wee little lad when Doriath was destroyed, barely an adult, or at any rate easily less than 200 yet. Perhaps Amdir never made it to Sirion at all, and only rejoined his son after the War of Wrath? (Perhaps Amdir's mom died in the Kinslaying, like Nellglind?) Regardless, Galadriel and/or Celeborn could have been doing most of the looking-after of him during the War either way, and thus we get Amroth as sort of "their kid" like he was in that draft, while not actually being their son which wouldn't make sense. Maybe Celeborn looked after both Amroth and Thranduil while the other adults were involved more in the fighting, given that picturing either Amdir or Oropher NOT fighting if they were still in Beleriand at this point is difficult (albeit not impossible: they could always have gone "fuck this shit, this is a Calaquendi Problem, you deal with it") and Galadriel is The Mighty One while Celeborn is more chill (and because I like not having The Woman be the one doing the child-minding lol). Alternatively, they could have all fought to varying degrees, with young Thranduil the one charged with looking after younger Amroth? idk most of the War of Wrath is pretty hand-wavy even in Tolkien's stuff so this can stay vague lol

At any rate, we pick-up the thread with our next Known(ish) event:

300 S.A. is when Celebrían is probably born. At this point, her parents are presumably still in Eriador. So, we could have them all living together as a little found family unit of survivors at Lake Nenuial, with Amroth and Thranduil acting as sort of older brothers/cousins to Celebrian. Perhaps she has more of a brotherly relationship with Amroth, who is younger, and a little more distance between her and Thranduil, because he's so much older (and lived through the trauma of everything more directly)? He sees himself as the Sensible And Mature One who has to look out for the younger/more naive kids, perhaps? At some point, of course, there must be some kind of a falling-out of some sort between Oropher and Galadriel/Celeborn, because we need to have some reason as the driving factor (combined with the increasing numbers of Dwarves in Moria, which we know Oropher wasn't pleased by; hello Doriath Trauma Round One!) for him to do the whole "moved his people north three times" from the original location of Amon Lanc in order to avoid being near Galadriel and Celeborn in Lórien. Perhaps the falling-out can be traced back to Ost-in-Edhil somehow?

750 S.A. is approximately when Eregion is founded, and construction is begun on Ost-in-Edhil. 750 S.A. is also around when we're told that Oropher and Amdir took up lordship of their respective Silvan lands (although I'm already deviating from those details a bit because fuck colonialism lol; but that's easy enough to do and still claim canon-compliance due to the vagueness of all of this in "canon" anyway, so we'll still use that as the rough date of when the Sindar refugees came to Laurelindórenan/Greenwood, and just say the whole "king" thing in Greenwood happened later and the Noldorian historians never caught the nuances, shhh) So if we extrapolate from all that... What if the falling-out happens because of Eregion? What if Amdir and Oropher are not about to accept an open and friendly relationship with the local Dwarves, after what happened to Thingol and Doriath; and Galadriel, with her foresight and her stubbornness and her Noldorin love of craft (and the fact that her first main trauma was Alqualondë long before the Sindar were scarred by the Battle of a Thousand Caves), refuses to let her Goals™️ be held hostage to their grudges and trauma, and insists that the only way forward for this land is hand-in-hand with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. Celeborn reluctantly sides with his wife (even though he loathes dwarves as much as any of them) over his friends, and Amdir and Oropher go off in a huff with those others of the Elves of Eriador who aren't interested in More Noldorin Bullshit, crossing the mountains and joining with the Silvan Elves in the east. So:

750 S.A. Amdir and Oropher leave with a group of followers, while Galadriel and Celeborn found Ost-in-Edhil with Celebrimbor, the two of them being taken as Lord and Lady of Eregion while he's (presumably) just in charge of the smiths for now.

1000 S.A. Sauron, not wanting to start shit with the western elves or Numenorians right not because they're too strong (and presumably just not giving a shit about the little Wood-elves in their forests), beings building Barad-dûr.

1200 S.A. Sauron tries to beguile the Elves of Lindon, and Gil-galad tells him to fuck-off. He tries again in Eregion, and despite Galadriel going "big nope!" the Gwaith-i-Mírdain there welcome him.

1350 S.A. Sauron manages to get Galadriel ousted from Ost-in-Edhil, and Celebrimbor becomes lord of the place. Galadriel and Celebrían leave via Moria, and spend a while in Khazad-dûm with their dwarven friends before making their way eventually to their old friend Amdir and foster-son/brother Amroth in Lórien, where they are welcomed, and Galadriel and Amdir reconcile (possibly enthusiastically, possibly awkwardly) but Celeborn, refusing to step foot in a dwarven kingdom, stays in Eregion, where he is "disregarded" by Celebrimbor. So I like to picture him skulking about as That Grumpy Old Man muttering and scowling at everybody as they pat him on the head and go "there, there grandpa" and whisper apologies to whatever dwarf he's offended today.

1500 S.A. by this time, the Seven and the Nine are made, and Sauron leaves to go make the One Ring in secret in Mordor.

1600 S.A. Sauron makes the One Ring and proclaims himself as Sauron, and ready for war. Celebrimbor goes OH FUCKSHIT and runs through Moria to consult with Galadriel in Lórien. He gives her Nenya, and she convinces him to send the other two to Gil-galad in Lindon, and get them the fuck out of Ost-in-Edhil.

1605 S.A. Sauron's immediate attempt to start said war is potentially delayed by the first two of the Istari, the Blue Wizards, who in a much later draft of Tolkien's actually came to Middle-earth during the Second Age, long before the rest of them, rather than all coming over together. Instead, he had them come over with Glorfindel, and while Glorfindel hung around to help Gil-galad et al they made their way East, to try and save the tribes of Men who had fallen under Morgoth's worship, and to discover where Sauron was hiding, and work against him. I think I want to go with that version, simply because I like the idea of Glorfindel coming back with some of the Istari? But I ALSO like the idea of him having fought in the Last Alliance, which means I need him to come over before Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast do in the Third Age. So this splits the difference nicely! So, as of 1600: the valar have gone "oh fuck!" and thrown two maia and one reborn elf on a boat and thrown them back to Middle-earth to clean-up the leftovers of the mess left by the War of Wrath when they failed to drag Morgoth's most powerful lieutenant back to face judgement in Valinor OOPSIES, presumably because they figured out that Shit Was Hitting The Fan thanks to the whole One Ring Thing being big enough to be Noticed By The Powers lol Anyway, thanks to Morinehtar and Rómestámo being fucking badass, Sauron's plans for war are delayed several years, and Celebrimbor has time to hide the Three and presumably to warn the Dwarves about the Seven. Ooh, what if we say that he's been spending a lot of this time trying to devise some way of un-linking the Rings from the One Ring? He apparently has the Nine with him when Eregion falls, and Sauron just takes those, but the Seven and the Three aren't there; maybe he was working on the Nine, and knew the Seven were safe in Khazad-dûm where his dwarven smith-friends were doing the same there? And that's why he never tried to destroy them: he was still holding out hope they could be saved, be fixed. That he wouldn't have to destroy the greatest things he ever made, and all the hopes he put into them. He just needed a little more time...

1693 S.A. the War of the Elves and Sauron (finally) begins.

1695 S.A. Sauron slinks through the Gap of Rohan, thus avoiding the Elves in the Greenwood and Lórien, and invades Eriador. Thanks to the Númenóreans having cut down many of the Trees of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, the people in these lands welcomed Sauron's conquest and let him pass without trouble. (Well done, Númenor! Didn't anyone ever teach you deforestation is bad?) Celeborn leads the forces from Eregion (presumably having said "I told you so" to Celebrimbor a few times) and they manage to defeat the first wave of Sauron's army, but are then overwhelmed and forced back to Ost-in-Edhil. Gil-galad hears about this and sends Elrond leading a force from Lindon to help, and also sends messages to Númenor pleading for help. Nobody answers (men, pah!). Elrond's force is too small, and can't break-through to get to Eregion to help.

1697 S.A. Ost-in-Edhil falls. Celebrimbor is tortured into giving up the location of the Seven, but dies without revealing the Three. Sauron, not being an entire idiot, guesses that they're most likely with Galadriel and Gil-galad anyway, but is pissy about being resisted, and turns Celebrimbor into a banner that he carries into battle. Elrond's tiny army is about to be overrun when the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm attack Sauron from the rear, along with the force of elves that Amroth has led through Moria from Lórien, (because whatever Issues™️ his father might have with Dwarves, he's not about to let his foster-father die). This allows Elrond to gather the survivors of Ost-in-Edhil, including presumably Celeborn, and flee. The Dwarves are driven back as well, but they shut the Doors of Moria and Sauron can't get in. Haha, thwarted by Celebrimbor and his previous sweetheart, sucks to be you Sauron! The Doors of Durin are apparently not opened again until the Fellowship of the Ring comes to them (although that doesn't make sense, because Gandalf and Aragorn both passed through Moria at least once before LotR, so they must have been opened at some point; but perhaps the text only means they were not left open again after this point, and is not referring to when/if they were ever opened from inside by someone walking through and out?). The retreating elves found the stronghold of Rivendell, to which many of the survivors of Eregion flee. (Celeborn, presumably, says "I told you so" a lot at this point too, but not often enough for them to murder him.) The rest scatter, some fleeing Middle-earth altogether and some disappearing into the Wild with others fleeing through Khazad-dûm (before the Doors are shut, presumably) thanks to their dwarven friends, and make their way eventually to Lórien, where they join their fellows who left Ost-in-Edhil earlier and merge with the Silvans and Sindar there.

by 1700 S.A. Sauron has overrun all of Eriador except for Rivendell, which is besieged, and Lindon, where Gil-galad is also barely holding him off at the River Lhûn and Mithlond. Finally the Nûmenorian fleet arrives, and kicks Sauron's ass all the way back to Tharbad, although he burns the forests of Minhiriath and Enedwaith as he goes. He gets caught in a pincer between the main force and a smaller one that Ciryatur landed at Gwathló behind him, and barely escaped "with his bodyguard" to Dagorlad. It is unclear at this point if Sauron actually HAS any or all of the Seven, or just knows where they are; sources say that Durin at least was given his Ring by Celebrimbor himself, so perhaps Sauron never actually manages to collect all the Seven at this point? but still has his original influence over them. He does have the Nine, we know, because he gathered them up when he came to Ost-in-Edhil and defeated Celebrimbor on the steps of the House of the Mírdain.

1701 S.A. the first Council is held in Imladris, when Galadriel and Celebrían come looking for Celeborn and meet-up with all the other leaders of the various forces of Elves and Men. They decide to make Rivendell the new elvish stronghold in Eriador, as Eregion is in ruins and remains thus. Gil-galad at this point gives Vilya to Elrond (it's unclear when Cirdan gets Narya, because of course is it; he might already have it, or he might not get it until Gil-galad marches to War in Mordor, although wtf was he thinking leaving Narya behind when he went to war just when he would need its power most? Gil-galad wtf mate???) and declares him his vice-regent. This is also when Elrond and Celebrían meet for the first time. (Presumably at this point her foster-brother Amroth teases her mercilessly about her very obvious crush on Gil-galad's pet peredhel, and she probably smacks the crap out of him for being a jerk.) At some point after this, Galadriel and Celeborn (and Celebrían presumably) leave Rivendell to live near the sea, probably because Galadriel was apparently "striken with sea-longing" the moment she put Nenya on. They go to Belfalas, which will be later called Dol Amroth, and apparently visit Lórien at least twice more before the end of the Second Age, but we don't know anything else about them here.

At this point, there isn't much relevant canon information until the Last Alliance happens, since most of what's going on of import now is happening in Numenor, but let's hit the highlights in case we want to expand on any of this later.

2251 S.A. the Nazgûl appear.

3262 S.A. Sauron taken to Numenor as a prisoner.

3319 S.A. Numenor sunk, Sauron flees back to Middle-earth, and the world is reshaped.

3429 S.A. Sauron seizes Minas Ithil.

3430 S.A. formation of the Last Alliance.

3431 S.A. the Last Alliance marches to Rivendell.

3434 S.A. the march to Mordor, and the Battle of Daglorlad, where Oropher and Amdir both die. Siege of Barad-dûr begins.

3441 S.A. Sauron defeated (for now), war is over. Thranduil and Amdir go home with their scant surviving forces.

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a-lonely-dunedain · 2 months

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Ethedis for the LOTRO ask game?

(for this ask game where you send in one of my OCs, and I give you a synopsis of what it would look like if they were the main NPC in a tutorial quest)

o hmm, I think there's a way I could be a little mean about this heheh

so I think that I mentioned at some point that before the elf intro, Ethedis had actually befriended Amdir. I haven't fleshed out all that much of it up until now, but I'm thinking this could be a short adventure with Ethedis and Amdir where you could see them being besties (before The Horrors)

this will probably just have to be one instance, as it would flow best into the Elf or Human starting zones and we don't need to stack two entire intro questlines on top of each other lol

(under the cut bc How Did This Get So Long??)

I think it actually starts in Rivendell, with the Player Character (probably an elf/human only intro) preparing to leave on the expedition to Ered Luin, at which point you are introduced to Elrond's excited young apprentice Ethedis, and the Ranger Amdir who is going to tag along for part of the trip but plans to part ways in Bree.

Fast travel to somewhere in the wilderness of the Trollshaws, you Ethedis and Amdir are a little ways ahead of the group to make sure the road is clear. Surprise! wood-trolls! combat tutorial! After the fight Ethedis will remark that it was the first time she's actually had to put her combat training to the test against a real foe, which surprises Amdir, who says that he wouldn't have guessed it was her first real fight. One of them might ask the player character about their combat experience, which would allow you to pick from a few different responses (always a fun roleplay option and tbh I wish they would use it in more quests). I think if the PC says they're also inexperienced Amdir will mention that he's very glad you're both catching on quickly and didn't get hurt (bc he would not have fun explaining how he let two newbies get injured on his watch, and would feel very bad. classic protective Ranger moment)

Fast travel again to somewhere in the Lone Lands, you all are camped near Weathertop. Ethedis is talking about the history of the area (it sounds like she's been talking about this for a while now), and overall seems very excited to be here and see this historical site in person. Amdir smiles and says he's glad that she's interested in Dunedain history, as it brings him comfort to know that others still wish to keep his people's history alive. Your character might be prompted to give an opinion on Ethedis' loredump, either saying they found it boring (which Ethedis will simply laugh off and say that's probably why she's not a minstrel, but Amdir will just glare at you) or say it was interesting (which will prompt both her and Amdir to loredump even more)

Once you make it to Breeland, somewhere in South Chetwood, Amdir says that he must part ways here. Ethedis says she's sad to see him go but hopes to meet him again once the expedition to Ered Luin is done, and Amdir will tell her that he looks forward to it if such a meeting can be arranged, but tells you both to be careful in your travels (vaguely alluding to a growing danger in Breeland.

Then you can have two different outcomes depending on your race:

If you're a human, you part ways with the Ered Luin expedition at the same time as Amdir. He will bid you farewell and safe travels, and says that he has urgent business to attend to before disappearing into the woods without further explanation (as Rangers are wont to do). Your quest objective tells you to head to Bree-Town, but after you've been heading in that direction for a while you run into a large group of Brigands and get knocked on the head. Wake up in the Blackwold jail, human intro progresses mostly as normal from that point onward (but without the combat tutorial) although Amdir's quest dialogue would be different. If we want to get really mean, maybe one of the last things he says to you as himself is something along the lines of "I fear... I will not make it to see our friend again... tell... tell her that I tried"

If you're an elf, shortly after Amdir departs Ethedis will offer to explain to you the history of Edhelion as it was told to her by her mother before she left for the Havens. Then you get the old elf intro instance but cut down a bit and framed as a flashback, there will also be an elf woman there with a vaguely familiar face holding a baby in her arms (it's never explicitly stated, but that's Ethedis' mom and baby Ethedis), she will be there when Ethedis' dad Talagan brings down the library and she collapse to her knees in a sobbing heap when it happens. No one draws attention to her but she's still There. Anyway after that you arrive in Ered Luin, quests progress as normal but Ethedis is along for the ride. Like when you go to talk to the survivors of Edhelion, Ethedis will be in the ruins with some quest comments ("Even after all this time, I can sense the sorrow in this place..." "The land remembers it like it was yesterday, and I understand now why we still leave it abandoned" and "I think this may have been my parent's house. And to think, we all could have lived here together..."), she's also going to have Opinions about the Dourhand's borderline-worship of Skorgrim lol

After everything in Thorin's Hall is over with, she will disappear for a little bit but rejoin the story during the united elf/dwarf assault on Rath Tarag. When she hears that you're planning to go to Bree next, she will ask you to try to find Amdir and see how he's doing (surely you'll only have good news! surely!)

Later on you might run into Ethedis in Rivendell, and she'll have a short quest for you, talking about missing your fallen friend but finding comfort in your shared memories of him (very similar in tone to Gorwen's quest in Thornhad after finishing Before the Shadow) Amdir was the first mortal friend she knew, and she didn't realize how much this loss would sting. Overall it's a bittersweet reunion.

(man I really saw Ethedis and was like "the elf into didn't give her enough trauma. she's connected to the human one too!" someone please make me Give Her A Break)

#ty for the ask friend!#idk why this took so long lol #but! that was the last one!#ask games #lotro #Amdir #lotro oc #Ethedis

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mighty-mando · 8 months

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couldn't help but notice the recent uptick in LOTRO activity 👀 so I gotta ask, the most important question for any lotro player, who is your favorite ranger?

(sorry if that's out of the blue I just get excited when I see new people interact with this lil fandom)

Aaaaahhhhhh yes. I have been subject to a (un?)fortunate combination of an urge to write angsty fan fiction, spare time to play LOTRO, AND a new art tool. This has led me to find out their are dozens of fellow Ranger-stans here 🙊

My favorite Rangers (because who can pick just one?) have always been Lothrandir, Candaith, and Amdir. I'm an old enough LOTRO player to remember when it was Amdir who rescued you from the Blackwolds, and it was Amdir who asked you to gather Kingsfoil to make tea for him, all while slowly fading away and Strider wasn't there to help, so Amdir was my first love. 💔

#Lotro #Rangers #Dunedain rangers #Dunedin #Lothrandir #Amdir #Candaith

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poetry-draws · 1 year

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Have you ever drawn Amdir, Toradan, Mundol, or Reniolind before? (Not saying you have to draw all four of them), I just finished replaying the Bree prologue in lotro and now I’m sad about them again.

would you like to be sad about them an additional time

#lotro #amdir #reniolind #toradan #mundol #for clarity--#reniolind --> babey #mundol -> head wound #toradan -> hood + tall #amdir -> sobbing #i'm not sorry #i've been working on this for weeks

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incorrectlotroquotes · 2 years

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Amdir: My life isn't as glamourous as my wanted poster makes it look.

#if you've been personally traumatized by the human/hobbit intro raise your hand #amdir #incorrect lotro quotes

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hallothere · 2 years

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how about amdir my beloved for the character opinion bingo?

Amdir my poor old friend.....

#amdir #ask games

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pocket-size-cthulhu · 1 year

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I don't know how to say this well, but. Frodo looks naive for trusting Smeagol, taking him in, keeping him around even when he was doing really suspicious things. But i actually think that's a manifestation of some of the core themes of the book.

Frodo isn't naive. He is aware, more than anyone else, of the kind of treacherous pull the Ring has on Smeagol. And yet he doesn't kill Smeagol. And his decision to spare the creature's life is a manifestation of the kind of hope that lives at the heart of Lord of the Rings.

Frodo doesn't kill Smeagol because he hopes, he wants to believe, that there's still good in him; he doesn't kill Smeagol because he wants to believe that there's still good inside himself. However improbable it seemed that Smeagol wouldn't betray them, Frodo hoped he would keep his word and behaved as though he was sure of it.

And that is what Lord of the Rings is about. It's not just hope against overwhelming odds, it's also hope manifest as placing trust in others when you might get burned. It's about the bravery of doing something--anything!--without knowing whether it will work out in the end. It's about finding reasons inside yourself for taking a step into the dark. It's about finding common humanity (don't be pedantic lol).

Hope isn't naivety as much as it is tolerance for personal risk in pursuit of something more important than yourself.

Where's that "estel vs amdir" post

#lord of the rings #lotr frodo #frodo baggins #this is a frodo stan account #estel vs amdir #lotr hope #hopepunk #smeagol #gollum

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cycas · 3 months

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Thank your for taking your time to shed light on Oropher's fateful military decision. I came to do some research about it because this is what stuck when there are discussions about Thranduil. I often read "Oropher did defy Gil-Galads order" or "Oropher did not respect Gil-Galads command". I know too little to be sure if he actually WAS under Gil-Galads command, in terms of military hierarchy.

Another theory people come up with his Sindarin descent and therefore, Oropher is blamed to disdain anyone of Noldorin descent, or at least to hold a grudge against the Noldor, and to not accept his authority. In short, it is the High King of the Noldor against a Sindarin King of Thingol's line.

As for Amdír, as a fellow Sindar from Doriath, familiar with the ways of living of the Silvan Elves, I assume he might have had a greater understanding of Oropher's tactics. I wonder if he knew, in advance, of Oropher's plan. If that early charge had been a plan at all. I wonder if his army that had been cut off the main host initally had been assigned a role in Oropher's early charge.

Then there is Thranduil. Where had he been? He survived, and with him, one third of his father's army, in a battle where complete annihilation was the higher probability than surviving, in a good enough health to travel home. I often wondered how this had been possible. Did those Elves survive because they were under his command, perhaps as another puzzle piece in Oropher's strategy that did not play out the way he intended it?

I have so many questions.

I'm going to link this to my previous reply, and also take it as licence to ramble further :-D

Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor, and his realm lay 'between the Mountains and the Sea'.

And yet. I think the hard lines between Noldor and Sindar become looser during the long peaceful early Second Age.

Elrond chooses to be Gil-galad's herald rather than setting up a New Doriath of his own: Galadriel, Celeborn and Celebrimbor found Eregion, but none of them are referred to as queen or king.

Cirdan, despite his age and the fact that he's been leading his own people since long before the rising of the Sun, seems to be quite content to become Gil-galad's master of ships and merge his people with the remnant of the Noldor.

Elrond says of the king's death: "beside Gil-galad, only Cirdan stood, and I."

The last High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth falls, and beside him is not some Noldo veteran of Gondolin or Nargothrond, but one of Thingol's lords (if not of Doriath) and Elrond, who is many things, but only marginally Noldor, at least by descent.

So: I think that by the end of the Second Age, Gil-galad’s people are Eldar, not really Sindar and Noldor any more.

There's a suggestion that Gil-galad might hold kingship over the exiled early Numenoreans too: Elendil sets up his capital Annúminas close to Mithlond, in an area previously occupied by Elves (in fact, by Galadriel).

When Isildur's new city in Gondor is attacked, Gil-galad rides to war to defend him. The elves between the Mountains and the Sea follow him, apparently without argument.

But Oropher and Amdir are different. They live East of the Mountains, outside any area possibly claimed by Gil-galad, and both are kings in their own right.

I think Oropher and Amdir are independent allies of Gil-galad, not his subjects. I'm not sure that Gil-galad would give them orders, in the same way that he probably wouldn't give direct orders to the Dwarves of the House of Durin who also joined the Last Alliance.

The fact that the House of Durin joined the Last Alliance is barely mentioned:

"Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

This is interesting in the context of Lorien. Amdir has previously gone to war in close alliance with Khazad-dûm, during the War of the Elves and Sauron, when Amroth led a force through Moria to attack Sauron's forces together with the Dwarves.

So Amdir might be closely allied with the force from Khazad-dûm, who after all do live right next door to him. Amdir might also have Noldor with him, refugees from Eregion:

"[Silvan Elves] had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age." (Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel and Celeborn)

I feel both of those factors might be awkward for Oropher, and lead to a certain distance between him and Amdir.

Though, we do get that tantalising mention from Gimli, in LOTR, that "Dwarves helped in building them [Thranduil's halls] long ago".

Could it be that perhaps Thranduil's survival was linked to that small near-forgotten force from Khazad-dûm, and that's how he ended up commissioning Dwarves to help build his palace, a thousand year later? They wouldn't be the Dwarves that fought in the Last Alliance, but there might still be a family connection.

But you can certainly see that if Oropher was still holding a grudge over the fall of Doriath against the Noldor, it might leave him feeling a bit isolated. His force is the only one that is entirely outside the cultural sphere of the Noldor, so far as we know.

And yet... Oropher *could* have sat the war out. Greenwood the Great was a big place, he'd already moved well away from Amon Lanc. He could have left the Last Alliance to get on with it. But he didn't: he marched to war, and brought his people in force.

So, my feeling is that he'd probably not get into a deliberate confrontation with Gil-galad. They have a shared objective, they both chose to go to war rather than retreating into the North and hoping Sauron would stay in the South.

Oropher might not be under Gil-galad's command, but it's Gil-galad's war and Oropher chose to show up for it.

And although Oropher is a lord of Doriath, Elrond is Thingol's heir, and Elrond is part of Gil-galad's command, as his herald.

Of course, there could be tactical disagreements, communications breakdowns (do Oropher's people all speak Sindarin of the same dialect that Gil-galad's do, enough that there are no language issues?)

Even if we assume that Oropher is a seasoned campaigner from the First Age wars (which might explain why the Silvan elves decided he'd be a good choice to co-opt as king) his forces aren't. They are, presumably, mostly youngish elves born during the time of peace, when in Elrond's words "the elves believed that evil was ended forever."

You can see that Oropher, looking at his young, untested soldiers, might feel it's urgent to end the war as fast as possible, and take them home. Perhaps that might lead him to an unwise hastiness?

And you can perhaps also see Gil-galad, Círdan, Elrond and Elendil, old friends going out together against their enemy, might not bring Oropher fully into their councils. They’ve probably met Oropher, at some point over the last 3500 years of the Second Age, but I'd guess they don’t know him well.

They might know Amdir better than Oropher, since Amdir and Amroth are connected with Eregion and with Galadriel.

Which raises the question: where are Galadriel and Celeborn during the War of the Last Alliance, anyway?

Their last noted location, according to Unfinished Tales, was Dol Amroth. They went there after Galadriel was struck with sea longing after being given her Ring. Not far from Mordor.

It seems likely that Celeborn, at least, and maybe Galadriel too, if her sea-longing allowed, would join Gil-galad’s war. Celeborn has fought beside Elrond before, in the War of the Elves and Sauron.

“In the Second Age their king, Oropher, had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria... and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien.” (Unfinished Tales)

Galadriel and Celeborn might be the only people on Gil-galad’s war-council that Oropher knows well: all three of them lived in Doriath, after all. But of course, knowing one another well doesn’t always mean getting along well.

This could be another reason for Oropher to hold his own councils and make his own strategy at Dagorlad. If he can’t stand Galadriel and Celeborn sufficiently that he moved house to get away from them, even when they weren’t even living full-time in Lórien, you can imagine that joining in a council of war with them present might be an Absolute No.

So many questions! And really very few canon answers, so you just have to make up your own mind about them.

#Amdir #Celeborn #Oropher #Gil-galad #speculation #the war of the Last Alliance #Dagorlad

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