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cycas · 3 months

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Thank your for taking your time to shed light on Oropher's fateful military decision. I came to do some research about it because this is what stuck when there are discussions about Thranduil. I often read "Oropher did defy Gil-Galads order" or "Oropher did not respect Gil-Galads command". I know too little to be sure if he actually WAS under Gil-Galads command, in terms of military hierarchy.

Another theory people come up with his Sindarin descent and therefore, Oropher is blamed to disdain anyone of Noldorin descent, or at least to hold a grudge against the Noldor, and to not accept his authority. In short, it is the High King of the Noldor against a Sindarin King of Thingol's line.

As for Amdír, as a fellow Sindar from Doriath, familiar with the ways of living of the Silvan Elves, I assume he might have had a greater understanding of Oropher's tactics. I wonder if he knew, in advance, of Oropher's plan. If that early charge had been a plan at all. I wonder if his army that had been cut off the main host initally had been assigned a role in Oropher's early charge.

Then there is Thranduil. Where had he been? He survived, and with him, one third of his father's army, in a battle where complete annihilation was the higher probability than surviving, in a good enough health to travel home. I often wondered how this had been possible. Did those Elves survive because they were under his command, perhaps as another puzzle piece in Oropher's strategy that did not play out the way he intended it?

I have so many questions.

I'm going to link this to my previous reply, and also take it as licence to ramble further :-D

Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor, and his realm lay 'between the Mountains and the Sea'.

And yet. I think the hard lines between Noldor and Sindar become looser during the long peaceful early Second Age.

Elrond chooses to be Gil-galad's herald rather than setting up a New Doriath of his own: Galadriel, Celeborn and Celebrimbor found Eregion, but none of them are referred to as queen or king.

Cirdan, despite his age and the fact that he's been leading his own people since long before the rising of the Sun, seems to be quite content to become Gil-galad's master of ships and merge his people with the remnant of the Noldor.

Elrond says of the king's death: "beside Gil-galad, only Cirdan stood, and I."

The last High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth falls, and beside him is not some Noldo veteran of Gondolin or Nargothrond, but one of Thingol's lords (if not of Doriath) and Elrond, who is many things, but only marginally Noldor, at least by descent.

So: I think that by the end of the Second Age, Gil-galad’s people are Eldar, not really Sindar and Noldor any more.

There's a suggestion that Gil-galad might hold kingship over the exiled early Numenoreans too: Elendil sets up his capital Annúminas close to Mithlond, in an area previously occupied by Elves (in fact, by Galadriel).

When Isildur's new city in Gondor is attacked, Gil-galad rides to war to defend him. The elves between the Mountains and the Sea follow him, apparently without argument.

But Oropher and Amdir are different. They live East of the Mountains, outside any area possibly claimed by Gil-galad, and both are kings in their own right.

I think Oropher and Amdir are independent allies of Gil-galad, not his subjects. I'm not sure that Gil-galad would give them orders, in the same way that he probably wouldn't give direct orders to the Dwarves of the House of Durin who also joined the Last Alliance.

The fact that the House of Durin joined the Last Alliance is barely mentioned:

"Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

This is interesting in the context of Lorien. Amdir has previously gone to war in close alliance with Khazad-dûm, during the War of the Elves and Sauron, when Amroth led a force through Moria to attack Sauron's forces together with the Dwarves.

So Amdir might be closely allied with the force from Khazad-dûm, who after all do live right next door to him. Amdir might also have Noldor with him, refugees from Eregion:

"[Silvan Elves] had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age." (Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel and Celeborn)

I feel both of those factors might be awkward for Oropher, and lead to a certain distance between him and Amdir.

Though, we do get that tantalising mention from Gimli, in LOTR, that "Dwarves helped in building them [Thranduil's halls] long ago".

Could it be that perhaps Thranduil's survival was linked to that small near-forgotten force from Khazad-dûm, and that's how he ended up commissioning Dwarves to help build his palace, a thousand year later? They wouldn't be the Dwarves that fought in the Last Alliance, but there might still be a family connection.

But you can certainly see that if Oropher was still holding a grudge over the fall of Doriath against the Noldor, it might leave him feeling a bit isolated. His force is the only one that is entirely outside the cultural sphere of the Noldor, so far as we know.

And yet... Oropher *could* have sat the war out. Greenwood the Great was a big place, he'd already moved well away from Amon Lanc. He could have left the Last Alliance to get on with it. But he didn't: he marched to war, and brought his people in force.

So, my feeling is that he'd probably not get into a deliberate confrontation with Gil-galad. They have a shared objective, they both chose to go to war rather than retreating into the North and hoping Sauron would stay in the South.

Oropher might not be under Gil-galad's command, but it's Gil-galad's war and Oropher chose to show up for it.

And although Oropher is a lord of Doriath, Elrond is Thingol's heir, and Elrond is part of Gil-galad's command, as his herald.

Of course, there could be tactical disagreements, communications breakdowns (do Oropher's people all speak Sindarin of the same dialect that Gil-galad's do, enough that there are no language issues?)

Even if we assume that Oropher is a seasoned campaigner from the First Age wars (which might explain why the Silvan elves decided he'd be a good choice to co-opt as king) his forces aren't. They are, presumably, mostly youngish elves born during the time of peace, when in Elrond's words "the elves believed that evil was ended forever."

You can see that Oropher, looking at his young, untested soldiers, might feel it's urgent to end the war as fast as possible, and take them home. Perhaps that might lead him to an unwise hastiness?

And you can perhaps also see Gil-galad, Círdan, Elrond and Elendil, old friends going out together against their enemy, might not bring Oropher fully into their councils. They’ve probably met Oropher, at some point over the last 3500 years of the Second Age, but I'd guess they don’t know him well.

They might know Amdir better than Oropher, since Amdir and Amroth are connected with Eregion and with Galadriel.

Which raises the question: where are Galadriel and Celeborn during the War of the Last Alliance, anyway?

Their last noted location, according to Unfinished Tales, was Dol Amroth. They went there after Galadriel was struck with sea longing after being given her Ring. Not far from Mordor.

It seems likely that Celeborn, at least, and maybe Galadriel too, if her sea-longing allowed, would join Gil-galad’s war. Celeborn has fought beside Elrond before, in the War of the Elves and Sauron.

“In the Second Age their king, Oropher, had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria... and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien.” (Unfinished Tales)

Galadriel and Celeborn might be the only people on Gil-galad’s war-council that Oropher knows well: all three of them lived in Doriath, after all. But of course, knowing one another well doesn’t always mean getting along well.

This could be another reason for Oropher to hold his own councils and make his own strategy at Dagorlad. If he can’t stand Galadriel and Celeborn sufficiently that he moved house to get away from them, even when they weren’t even living full-time in Lórien, you can imagine that joining in a council of war with them present might be an Absolute No.

So many questions! And really very few canon answers, so you just have to make up your own mind about them.

#Amdir #Celeborn #Oropher #Gil-galad #speculation #the war of the Last Alliance #Dagorlad

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savage-kult-of-gorthaur · 1 year

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"...AND BY SLOW ARTS OF CRUELTY WERE CORRUPTED AND ENSLAVED; AND THUS DID MELKOR BREED THE HIDEOUS RACE OF THE ORCS..."

PIC(S) INFO: Spotlight on the many different types of orcs and orc makeup effects by Weta Workshop, all orc makeup iterations featured here can be found in Peter Jackson's first installment in the "Lord of the Rings" film Trilogy, "The Fellowship of the Ring" (2001). New Line Cinema.

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty... Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in eny and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar... And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery..."

-- "The Silmarillion," "Quenta Silmarillion, III - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor," written by J.R.R. Tolkien

Source: www.henneth-annun.net/bios_view.cfm?scid=126.

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maaruin · 2 years

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Okay, I made a very interesting discovery today. Or rather, I remembered something I had read many years ago, but didn’t understand the implications back then.

In the last tale of the Silmarillion, called Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age, there is a sentence about the War of the Last Alliance:

All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad.

All living things except Elves. This means there were Orcs fighting for the good side!

#tolkien #silmarillion #lord of the rings #orcs #war of the last alliance #that doesn't necessarily mean there were 'good orcs'#perhaps elendil had subjugated some orc tribes or perhaps some orcs were antagonistic to sauron and this was an alliance of convenience #i remembered this line because bret devereaux brought up the possibility of saruman adding his armies to the good side on his blog #in the last part of the series on helms deep #then i realized that #something like that has apparently happend before in middle earth #i don't know what circumstances lead to some orcs (and also some trolls etc) fighting for the last alliance #but the book implies they did

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silvantransthranduiltrash · 2 months

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Snort

What if oropher didn’t die in the battle of the last alliance but just used the opportunity to fake his death and escape with his wife and go on an extended honeymoon and leave all the damn paperwork and diplomacy with the noldor/sindar to his poor son.

Thranduil, when his father is finally waking up after getting many fatal injuries during battle: Ada!! Everyone thought you were gonna die!

Oropher, pausing when his son’s words registered: Everyone?

Thranduil, as he watches in disbelief as Oropher bolts away from him with a few supplies: Ada WAIT! DON’T LEAVE ME TO DEEL WITH THEM!

Oropher: don’t worry son, i’m sure you’ll do great!

————————————

Gil-galad: where is king oropher?

Thranduil, a petty lil bitch that will get back at his father: unfortunately, my my father king passed after suffering many grievous injuries during the last battle.

———————————-

Oropher, coming back from his long vacation in the third age: i’m dead? Nobody told me.

Thranduil: that’s what you get for abandoning me to those elves.

Thranduil: suffer

#this is all light hearted #thranduil’s just pissed because he did not sign up for this #thranduil when cloudryad makes him the next leader of the greenwood silvans after the war: wait don’t leave me to deal with all this too!!!#lord of the rings #lotr #lotr elves #silmarillion #the hobbit #legolas #thranduil #silvans #mirkwood #incorrect tolkien quotes #incorrect lotr quotes #incorrect hobbit quotes #oropher #cloudryad #battle of the last alliance #oropher x his wife

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aspic31 · 1 year

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Really loved that scene in rebels of Ezra craddling his crystal // ahsoka and hera gossiping about stupid things kanan used to do as a youngling in the temple

Commissions are open !

Taglist under the cut (let me know if you want to be added or removed)

@ct-7567 @kkrazy256 @lost-on-kamino @jaskierstransmascswag @thechaoticfanartist @beroyas @rt-d00-t @puirell @laz-laz-ace-pilot @thecodyagenda @brother-genitivi @royalhandmaidens

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chromapipeweed · 1 year

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Day 1: Elves

Not sure if Oropher actually became part of the marshes or not (I need to reread everything this year) but it was a really fun idea to draw.

@secondageweek

#secondageweek #oropher #silmarillion #cw death #war of the last alliance #my art #feel free to cc the art #i struggled with the armor perspective and also making everything but his hair look like they were sunk down #and i was super lazy with the bog mats #really need to do a landscape study

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glorfindelridesagain · 1 year

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Legolas talking of the Paths of the Dead: They say many years ago Isildur cursed these mountains.

[A long time ago]

Isildur: Fuck these mountains!

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chicotfp · 1 year

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#thranduil #lee pace #lord of the rings #the hobbit #lotr #tolkien #silmarillion #the elvenking #elves #oropher #one more try to make Oropher's death scene #because i am such a ray of sunshine #things i do in my little dark corner #edits/photo manipulations #the war of last alliance #war sucks

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roobgumball95 · 1 year

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thrawn alliances but every time thrawn brings up anakin to vader it’s noticeably gayer. it goes from “general skywalker once said…” to “batuu was actually the scene of our first date” to “i stared into his eyes for fifteen seconds on that street corner” and vader just has to take it

#i don’t even ship them but those are famous last words so….#grand admiral thrawn #anakin skywalker #thranakin #thrawn #mitth'raw'nuruodo #darth vader #thrawn alliances #thrawn books #star wars

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toddhewitt · 10 months

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4.06 / 4.10

"and we will be your partners, in the fight to free [the new world]?"

#mayatalks #black sails #remember julius saying in 4.07 'nothing is lasting'? because i do #when silver is baffled by julius asking 'for how long' we know he's never asked himself that. how long will they go on fighting the world.#and flint and madi have probably never asked that either #there's no definable goal to reach with this war and so it could go on forever #but even if they decided on one it wouldn't have been realized because silver chose so out of doubt and uncertainty #when faced with this question he's faced with his doubt regarding the war yet again; this has been happening all season long #but there's another hidden meaning/foreshadowing that i love here which is:#when julius continues he explains he's referring to how long the separate camps would be allies #and it's a wonderful reminder of silver's alliance with flint and the question of how long it's going to last #and how much it's based on - to quote eleanor in 3.02 - mutual self-interest #hidden meanings aside i know we all know this but i love what they did with julius and he should've been a bigger character #from the moment we meet him it's clear that he's clever and wary and knows his principles #and his principles combined with his circumstances are so unique it's so good for the story i wishhhh we had more of him #what can i say? i love when stories are good

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mag-lore · 1 year

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There are parallels between the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and the War of the Last Alliance that I can’t stop thinking about.

The Nirnaeth had The Union of Maedhros, an alliance of elves, men, and dwarves; the same races that were allied in the Last Alliance. Some of the men fighting during the Nirnaeth were the Unfaithful Easterlings, while the Faithful Númenóreans were present during the Last Alliance. Both had elves charging before they were given the command from the king (Gwindor and Oropher). Both battles were a last ditch effort to overthrow the Dark Lord, who had specific gripes with specific leaders on the other side (we don’t seem to talk about the price Morgoth put on Fingon’s head enough). Both had a massive loss of lives, resulting in permanent landforms because of all the bodies (Hill of Tears and the Dead Marshes). And both resulted in the fiery death of the High King of the Noldor, at the hand of the greatest foe on the battlefield (Fingon, bound and hewn by Gothmog, and Gil-galad burned by Sauron’s hand).

But they won the War of the Last Alliance. They lost so so much, but they won. Yes, Sauron rises to power again, but they establish a peace that lasts a long while. Sauron’s influence and forces are driven from all lands, and it stays like that for a long time. Whereas the Nirnaeth Arnoediad was such a crushing defeat, obviously. So many people were lost, for nothing. Morgoth controlled almost all of Beleriand after the Nirnaeth. The remaining free people were scattered, broken and hopeless.

I mean, just think, Fingon and Maedhros tried so desperately to create an alliance of all the free peoples in Beleriand to defeat the Dark Lord, and they failed miserably. But their sons/descendants (Gil-galad, Elrond, Elendil) tried to do the exact same thing and they were victorious. They won. They were able to do what their fathers were unable to do thousands of years later.

#this is making me emotional #i just #there are so many parallels and I dont think ive ever seen anyone point them out before #and yes i go with gil galad son of fingon and elrond feanorian #it just makes this all the better if its their sons achieving their dream #nirnaeth arnoediad #war of the last alliance #gil-galad #elrond #maedhros #fingon #silmarillion

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purringysalamiri · 9 days

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waiter waiter please more pathetic characters that are genuinely so insufferable to just look at to the point where your feelings of hatred become so intense you start feeling something else

#niles ferrier #I hate him so much #enemies to lovers but oh my god its me and my east favorite #he's so pathetic #its not even funny #I genuinely despise him so much #but I need him #at the same time #no inbetween #he's annoying and needs to shut up but I want to kiss him #star wars legends #star wars #the last command #thrawn trilogy #smugglers alliance #talon karrde #Samuel Tomas gillespee

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catofadifferentcolor · 9 months

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Terrible Fic Idea #59: Percy Jackson x Lord of the Rings

After my last two terrible fic ideas, I challenged myself to come up with other PJO/HOO/TOA crossovers that shouldn't work but just actually might be onto something. And have I got the least likely - yet somehow not crack - crossover for you yet.

Or: What if Percy Jackson was dumped into the First Age of Middle-Earth?

Just bear with me:

According to the Ainulindalë, Eru Ilúvatar sang Middle-Earth into creation with the Ainur, a subset of which went on to become the Valar and Maiar who are the gods of that world.

But who is to say Middle-Earth is the only world Eru created? Maybe it was his masterpiece and he created a bunch of smaller, less well-planned and well-loved worlds for practice. Maybe some of the Ainur decided they wanted to get in on the world-building action after Middle-Earth was shut off from the rest and created our world as a playground of their own. Who knows? Regardless of details, because of this the Riordanverse exists in the same multiverse as Middle-Earth, with the protogenoi (Gaea, Chaos, Tartarus, &c) being some flavor of Ainur.

Because of this connection, it is possible to travel between one world created by Eru and another - if you have enough Ainur blood and no pressing desire to ensure you survive the journey or will be able to find your way back to your original world.

Just imagine it:

Echoing Son of Neptune, Percy Jackson washes ashore on the coast of Nevrast in Beleriand near Vinyamar in the year 495 of the First Age. He has no memories and carries nothing but the clothes on his back and a grief so heavy it would take the life of an elf.

He encounters Voronwë and Tuor on their way to Gondolin. They travel together for a while, but share no common language and part before they reach the hidden city. The pair name him Airëran, or Sea-Wanderer in Quenya.

Years pass. Percy wanders, spending most of his time alone by (or in) the sea with this grief. He eventually encounters Voronwë again after the Fall of Gondolin (FA 510) who brings him to one of the elvish settlements. By the Destruction of Bereiand (FA 587) many believe him to be blessed by Ulmo as Tuor was, but when the extent of Percy's demigod powers are made clear, they state that he is clearly half-Man, half-Maia, possibly even the son of Ossë himself.

Percy and Voronwë - now called Aerandír and Bronwë respectively after the Sindarin shift - spend most of the Second Age either at sea or in the Grey Havens. They travel farther than even the Númenorians, charting much of the world - but never travel West, in deference to Voronwë/Bronwë's failed voyage before they met. When the war against Sauron begins, they offer what naval assistance they can and fight at Dagorlad in the Last Alliance.

At the start of the Third Age, Percy and Voronwë/Bronwë set out to remap the oceans after the Changing of the World (SA 3319), lightheartedly grumbling about all their previous cartography being undone. Again.

Throughout all of this, Percy remembers nothing of his original life or family. As far as he's concerned, he is Airëran/Aerandír and always has been - except for the overwhelming, nameless grief he carries with him, though he's learned to live with it over the centuries. Snatches come back to him in dreams, but only ever the worst parts, which he actively tries to suppress.

That is, until c. TA 300, when Percy and Voronwë/Bronwë are caught in a great storm at sea. Percy is swept overboard - and encounters Ossë in the deep.

There is some info-dumping - mainly that Percy isn't Ossë's son, but something like his nephew given his ancestry, and that Percy must allow his suppressed memories to return for the good of Middle-Earth - before Percy is allowed to return to a panicked Voronwë/Bronwë.

Over the next thousand years, Percy eventually gains access to most of his memories.

Long story very short, the consequences of holding up the sky and traveling through Tartarus effected Annabeth in a way they never effected Percy, and within two years of becoming a professional architect in the mortal world she was diagnosed with stage-three cancer. She died six months after - and Percy's grief was homeric. He tried all the usual demigod tricks to get her back, but all the doors were shut to him - especially after Poseidon, not willing to have the same thing happen to the son of which he is so proud, gifted Percy with immortality and a position in his court. At this, Percy raged - but even this soon turned back to grief as his mortal family dies in a car accident and his demigod friends are killed by monsters and/or another divine war in which he can do nothing to help. He eventually found a spell that should allow him to go back to the start - but instead of taking Percy back to his fist day at CHB, it took him to the first world Eru created, Middle-Earth.

Most of the Third Age is Percy coming to terms with his past and using what he's learned with the elves all these years to get a handle on his grief.

He and Voronwë/Bronwë do, however, show up to fight at Pelennor Fields (3019 TA), and instead of commandeering the ships with black sails, Aragorn and company arrive to find they've been beaten to the task - and that Percy's fleet carries many Easterlings and Umbarians who'd rather fight against Sauron than for him.

When the Last Ship sails West, Percy and Voronwë/Bronwë join them and continue their adventures in Aman - and it's here that Percy's memories of interfacing with the gods in his first life are important, as Eru is taking more and more umbrage that the creatures he created in his image act like him and create things with their free will and don't always follow his plan. (Think What Song Can Fell the Mountain by CaveDwellers and Rhinocio.) But how that falls out is dealer's choice.

Bonuses include: 1) The slowest of slow burns between Percy and Voronwë, with Voronwë falling in love with Percy by their second meeting and Percy taking the next couple thousand years to realize oh, yes, I'm in love with him, when did that happen? This should be very much an exploration of love not needing physical intimacy to be real, as well as an acknowledgement that the shallow love Voronwë felt at their second meeting is dwarfed by the love he feels for Percy after getting to know him. All of Arda would breathe a sigh of relief when they get together, except most of them think the two have been together since Bereiand and just hadn't gotten around to physical intimacy until late in the game; 2) Random appearances of Maglor throughout the ages on various coastlines across the world - the last being when he joins Percy and Voronwë as they sail to Aman; and 3) Percy gaining a collection of names which should rival any and everyone in Middle-Earth with their size and number. These should be listed at some point for the eager hobbits after the Ring is destroyed and some brief telling of his deeds given, with Percy - and perhaps Voronwë - interjecting things like, so-and-so wasn't actually that impressive or wait, that guy was the king of those people? I thought he was just a jerk.

And that... was surprisingly more detailed than I thought it would be. As always, feel free to adopt this bun, just link back if you ever do anything with it.

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