#I know they oversimplify things

[lurkingteapot]

Every now and then I think about how subtitles (or dubs), and thus translation choices, shape our perception of the media we consume. It's so interesting. I'd wager anyone who speaks two (or more) languages knows the feeling of "yeah, that's what it literally translates to, but that's not what it means" or has answered a question like "how do you say _____ in (language)?" with "you don't, it's just … not a thing, we don't say that."

I've had my fair share of "[SHIP] are [married/soulmates/fated/FANCY TERM], it's text!" "[CHARACTER A] calls [CHARACTER B] [ENDEARMENT/NICKNAME], it's text!" and every time. Every time I'm just like. Do they though. Is it though. And a lot of the time, this means seeking out alternative translations, or translation meta from fluent or native speakers, or sometimes from language learners of the language the piece of media is originally in.

Why does it matter? Maybe it doesn't. To lots of people, it doesn't. People have different interests and priorities in fiction and the way they interact with it. It's great. It matters to me because back in the early 2000s, I had dial-up internet. Video or audio media that wasn't available through my local library very much wasn't available, but fanfiction was. So I started to read English language Gundam Wing fanfic before I ever had a chance to watch the show. When I did get around to watching Gundam Wing, it was the original Japanese dub. Some of the characters were almost unrecognisable to me, and first I doubted my Japanese language ability, then, after checking some bits with friends, I wondered why even my favourite writers, writers I knew to be consistent in other things, had made these characters seem so different … until I had the chance to watch the US-English dub a few years later. Going by that adaptation, the characterisation from all those stories suddenly made a lot more sense. And the thing is, that interpretation is also valid! They just took it a direction that was a larger leap for me to make.

Loose adaptations and very free translations have become less frequent since, or maybe my taste just hasn't led me their way, but the issue at the core is still a thing: Supernatural fandom got different nuances of endings for their show depending on the language they watched it in. CQL and MDZS fandom and the never-ending discussions about 知己 vs soulmate vs Other Options. A subset of VLD fans looking at a specific clip in all the different languages to see what was being said/implied in which dub, and how different translators interpreted the same English original line. The list is pretty much endless.

And that's … idk if it's fine, but it's what happens! A lot of the time, concepts -- expressed in language -- don't translate 1:1. The larger the cultural gap, the larger the gaps between the way concepts are expressed or understood also tend to be. Other times, there is a literal translation that works but isn't very idiomatic because there's a register mismatch or worse. And that's even before cultural assumptions come in. It's normal to have those. It's also important to remember that things like "thanks I hate it" as a sentiment of praise/affection, while the words translate literally quite easily, emphatically isn't easy to translate in the sense anglophone internet users the phrase.

Every translation is, at some level, a transformative work. Sometimes expressions or concepts or even single words simply don't have an exact equivalent in the target language and need to be interpreted at the translator's discretion, especially when going from a high-context/listener-responsible source language to a low-context/speaker-responsible target language (where high-context/listener responsible roughly means a large amount of contextual information can be omitted by the speaker because it's the listener's responsibility to infer it and ask for clarification if needed, and low-context/speaker-responsible roughly means a lot of information needs to be codified in speech, i.e. the speaker is responsible for providing sufficiently explicit context and will be blamed if it's lacking).

Is this a mouse or a rat? Guess based on context clues! High-context languages can and frequently do omit entire parts of speech that lower-context/speaker-responsible languages like English regard as essential, such as the grammatical subject of a sentence: the equivalent of "Go?" - "Go." does largely the same amount of heavy lifting as "is he/she/it/are you/they/we going?" - "yes, I am/he/she/it is/we/you/they are" in several listener-responsible languages, but tends to seem clumsy or incomplete in more speaker-responsible ones. This does NOT mean the listener-responsible language is clumsy. It's arguably more efficient! And reversely, saying "Are you going?" - "I am (going)" might seem unnecessarily convoluted and clumsy in a listener-responsible language. All depending on context.

This gets tricky both when the ambiguity of the missing subject of the sentence is clearly important (is speaker A asking "are you going" or "is she going"? wait until next chapter and find out!) AND when it's important that the translator assign an explicit subject in order for the sentence to make sense in the target language. For our example, depending on context, something like "are we all going?" - "yes" or "they going, too?" might work. Context!

As a consequence of this, sometimes, translation adds things – we gain things in translation, so to speak. Sometimes, it's because the target language needs the extra information (like the subject in the examples above), sometimes it's because the target language actually differentiates between mouse and rat even though the source language doesn't. However, because in most cases translators don't have access to the original authors, or even the original authors' agencies to ask for clarification (and in most cases wouldn't get paid for the time to put in this extra work even if they did), this kind of addition is almost always an interpretation. Sometimes made with a lot of certainty, sometimes it's more of a "fuck it, I've got to put something and hope it doesn't get proven wrong next episode/chapter/ten seasons down" (especially fun when you're working on a series that's in progress).

For the vast majority of cases, several translations are valid. Some may be more far-fetched than others, and there'll always be subjectivity to whether something was translated effectively, what "effectively" even means …

ANYWAY. I think my point is … how interesting, how cool is it that engaging with media in multiple languages will always yield multiple, often equally valid but just sliiiiightly different versions of that piece of media? And that I'd love more conversations about how, the second we (as folks who don't speak the material's original language) start picking the subtitle or dub wording apart for meta, we're basically working from a secondary source, and if we're doing due diligence, to which extent do we need to check there's nothing substantial being (literally) lost -- or added! -- in translation?

#translation #linguistics (sorta) #I love language so much #long post #subtitling #dubbing #transformative work #if you read all the way to the end - THANK YOU I am so impressed #localisation #this is not an academic essay but I still feel bad for not citing sources #low vs high context cultures and languages are concepts from intercultural communication studies #but idk how up to date that is or whether folks even still actually use them #I know they oversimplify things #but it helped me say what I was trying to here so shrug #languages #language soup #meta #language meta #fandom meta of sorts #thanks for the help sorting this out kayla <3 #my nonsense

[cemeterything]

every so often i get the intense urge to write some kind of story about either angels or dragons but then remember i don't have any fucking clue what i'd actually write about, just a loose collection of characters and worldbuilding and speculative biology/character design ideas. they need to add the shinji chair emoji in the next update i need it rn.

#🐉 #part of me dreams of making an 'angelology' book in the style of those books everyone was obsessed with as kids #but maybe slightly more geared towards young adults and mature readers because most kids favorite mythical creature #is not the angel or the demon #however i know it would piss basically everyone off for multiple reasons and would be a bad idea #because of the risks of unintentionally criticizing peoples faith/oversimplifying things and spreading misinfo that gets #uncritically accepted as factual/etc. and i could not fucking stand to be the person who ruined my special interest #for everyone and go down in history as the guy who made angels lame lol #also theres probably some kind of copyright that would get my ass for ripping off those books

[thunderon]

my friend kept getting confused when i was describing harrow the ninth so i had to make a diagram to help her…

#i know some things are oversimplified but my friend has never read the books so i tried making it easy #the locked tomb #gideon the ninth #harrow the ninth #op #bestof

[rustchild]

ok i get the desire to push back against annoying dominant christian interpretations of the torah/old testament. i really do. however i also wish that people would stop being like “actually, the jewish perspective on this is--” before listing off one (1) jewish perspective, usually either reform or humanistic, that also happens to be the most politically convenient and moral according to the standards of tumblr. like y’all if anyone tells you that there is only one jewish interpretation of something you should know that they are probably wrong, there’s at least one jew out there who would vehemently disagree with them, and also judaism is a complex living culture that you really should not put on a pedestal

#like. yes the binding of isaac can be interpreted as a test that abraham failed. that's one interpretation #discussed in some sects by some rabbis #however. #there very much are also jews who interpret it as #a sign that jews specifically must be ready to sacrifice anything for g-d #in order to hold up our end of the covenant #there are jews who interpret it in completely different ways as well #like i can't list out all of them because #i don't know them #and am not a theologian or rabbi or even all that observant #so my interpretation isn't going to be very helpful #but can we please not oversimplify judaism to present it as the Good Abrahamic ReligionTM #it's a complex living tradition with a whole wide range of different ideas #some of which i personally hate! #because that's culture for you! #the one exception to the 'one jewish belief on x' thing is like #messianics #we basically all do not like messianics #or like. We Generally Agree That Antisemitism Is Bad #but when it comes to biblical interpretation? #four jews twelve opinions #always #jewish things #something something leftist philosemitism

[la-pheacienne]

Some People : Ohhh Daenerys will be S O mad when she finally meets Jaime she will want to burn him alive for treason

What Daenerys will actually do : stare at Jaime for a long while in sheer amazement and then just say "tell me about T H E M".

#I want to know #I never knew my father #I want to know everything about him #The good and... the rest #and her mother #and her b r o t h e r #we shall talk when I return #i almost mistook you for aegon the conqueror #F U C K I NEED THIS FUCKING BOOK NOW #aghjhhh #jaime will finally get his chance of TALKING #and he has THINGS to say #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #daenerys targaryen #jaime lannister #yes i am AWARE that i'm oversimplifying their first meeting and OF COURSE this is meant to get ugly at some point #but it is SO obvious to me that she will not hate the man and she will seek to understand and first of all LEARN from him #aspa rambles

[emblazons]

Thinking about how people who only (or primarily) understand Mike’s arc through a “hes queer and coming to accept it / struggling with heteronormativity/will get his happy ending when he gets with Will” lens are missing at least half of what defines his arc in the wider context / themes of the show.

Forewarning: long post (& also maybe an unpopular opinion)

Even as a queer person myself, I know that his arc isn’t solely about embracing his queerness (though it’s inherently interlinked). In Mike, you have a character who is being radically challenged by both external circumstances and his own decisions through a journey away from all kinds of forced conformity (social, familial, romantic & heteronormative) and into someone self actualized enough to live how they want…while also being strong enough to accept that they made mistakes along the way. Someone who is learning to be brave enough to say “this is who I am, what I enjoy, and what/who I love…and while it took me a lot of time to figure it out, now I can exist in the world embracing that even though it will take consistently resisting the tendency to accommodate people who think it’s unacceptable.”

Like. Even from a time before puberty (see: S3) Mike wants a life that stands apart from what’s expected of him in every area, not just in choosing a romantic relationship with another guy. He wants to continue to be a nerd and “child at heart” even though something else is repeatedly demanded of him by everyone from his parents to El in his romantic relationship. He wants to be a writer and someone who takes those nerdy interests into his adult life (cue aggressive gesturing toward the duffers themselves) and grates against all that’s been constructed for him even when he’s not (yet) brave enough to challenge it directly. Mike liking boys/loving Will is just “the final nail in the coffin” of his social and societal nonconformity—not the first (or the last) aspect of what makes him different from Hawkins or the life he was made to believe would suit him best.

Even the fact that Mike has a desire to be “normal” comes from an insecurity and fear that choosing what he truly wants will lead to him being outcasted and losing the people he cares for entirely—which is partially motivated by his queerness yes, but that also has a basis in his general interests and personality…which becomes especially obvious when you realize we are repeatedly shown that he is punished/has his wishes ignored in all areas he doesn’t conform, even long before we get into a plot where it’s clearer he likes boys.

We see it in how his parents have already started to demand he put boundaries on the time he spends playing his “childhood games” the very first scene of season one, how they demand social acceptable emotions from him when Will is missing, and how Karen & Ted want him to give up toys in S2 when he’s showing signs of depression (because they think the issue is him growing up, not that he’s struggling with loss or guilt for what happened to El).

We see it in how his own father comments about taking his CA trip away from him after calling Hellfire being a group for “dropouts” in S4 (implying that he is failing on an academic and social level that matters to wheelers—and that Nancy is good at).

We even see it in the way everyone from his bullies to his own girlfriend threaten and take things away from him when he doesn’t conform to social expectations...from Troy telling him to jump off the cliff to save Dustin in S1 (as punishment for the one time Mike stands up for himself in the gymnasium) to El jumping straight into breaking up with him and spying on him when he doesn’t do exactly what she wants him to in Season 3.

All of these moments are critical to understanding Mike as a person because they show us that, even without addressing his queerness, Mike’s desire to conform to socialized expectations involves but is not solely about him moving out of heteronormativity—it’s about him moving against everything that WASP, patriarchal, heteronormative and capitalistic and performative “wholesome American” values…and how he is learning to move past the fear of what will happen if he steps outside the lines in general, even though he already knows he hates those standards.

Mike’s “coming of age” arc is about finding the strength to choose the “path less traveled” in all areas of his life—even when it means (potentially) losing the support of the people he cares about. It’s about starting from a place of privilege and becoming okay with being outcasted from it in a way your insecurities never let you be before (which is inherently different than Will, who has always been shown to have some kind of support not just for his queerness but his artistic endeavors as well). Mike’s lack of support is why he starts from a place of deep insecurity, yes—but it’s also why him learning power of choosing to be himself, even if it means “losing” people when he’s honest about who (& what) he is will be universally powerful.

You don’t need to be queer to understand the power of what it means to know you will be okay even if people leave you. You don’t need to be queer to understand the power of stepping outside social expectations or your family’s way of raising you. You don’t even need to be queer to understand the weight of breaking up with someone you were only with to satisfy what you thought you should do, rather than be with who you want to.

The power of being strong enough to overcome your insecurities in order to “step out of line” and live and love as you want to is universal, and a stunningly brave choice no matter what or why you chose to do so. The fact that Will will be there waiting to love him in that honesty with himself is beautiful, yes—but it’s not the only lesson to be learned for Mike’s character.

Mike starting out with everything the world (or, at least America) tells would make you happy, realizing he is not happy with those things and rejecting them knowing it might have consequences is what makes his arc powerful, because he is learning (exactly like his sister Nancy) to be brave enough to accept those consequences (which for him are getting dumped, and feeling like he’s being left behind by some of his friends) to follow his own heart.

Even though The Duffers aren’t writing this into a tragic ending (aka: he’s not going to die or be left alone, because the duffers writing is inherently designed ro champion the outcast), these are the things that have (and will) make him relatable even to an audience that doesn’t know queerness. Erasing the fact that his lesson is the bravery it takes to follow your heart solely to talk about him liking guys (even Will) is to undermine his humanity, and the lessons to be learned from him by even the most general an audience.

TL:DR - the heteronormative aspect of Mike’s character is not the sole or even inherent issue within Mike, though heteronormativity is inherently built into his struggle.

There are deep dives on how his arc is also about a war against toxic patriarchy, toxic masculinity, emphasis on capitalistic and academic accomplishments over artistic ones, and even conformist relationships (whether they’re queer or not) that should be explored for his character—and I for one like him too much not to move out of just “this boy is queer because xyz” and into “let’s talk about Mike in terms of the wider scope of his cultural context and upbringing.” 🤷🏽‍♀️😂

#imma go watch the Oscars now but #i know people mean NO HARM in focusing on the heteronormative part of his arc because on tumblr esp that is inherently relatable but #it’s not the only thing that makes his character interesting! #and it’s not the only thing he’s struggling with in his ‘coming of age!’ #understanding white masculinity in America on a wider scale is SUPER helpful to understanding Mike #and in that sense Reddit is actually pretty good at catching his drift—THEY JUST DONT REALIZE THE DUFFERS ARE U N D E R M I N I N G it #erasing Mike’s queerness is to do him a disservice. I absolutely believe this. #but to deny every other part of him that isn’t just expected to be straight is to oversimplify him aggressively #you need BOTH to understand him #which is why you need both El and Will to make sense of his struggle lmao #(I still 100% believe he’s gay not bi) #(but him dating a girl was necessary to make sense of understanding that aspect of socialized expectations). #ANYWAY. Sorry for the rant lmao #mike wheeler core #mike wheeler #my st commentary #byler #< target audience #stranger things

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

I don’t understand how politicians can live in a country and just. Be so removed from important issues. Be so removed from what people want.

#I don’t think ‘everyone gets treated with basic decency and rights’ is a controversial opinion. #I don’t understand the pushback. I just don’t. #‘there’s not enough money’ …there isn’t??? I wonder about that #money does seem to come in magically when it’s suddenly needed #look I’ll delete this later it’s just. I really think the government structure needs to change. #I don’t know what would actually be better though. so if you don’t know what’s feasibly better. You have to work with what you’ve got #but it’s just tiring. I’ve always felt like we just do everything we do to not offend the usa. can’t we grow a spine??? #I know I’m probably way oversimplifying a lot of things. but it’s how I feel at least.

[7roaches]

chat is this real 🙁

#my art #adventure time fionna and cake spoilers #adventure time spoilers #petrigrof #wow #i think ive said the word wow out loud like 10 times in the past 20 minutes because im still fucking reeling in sheer disbelief #like. obvi im pulling a ep9&10 (as in i am oversimplifying nuanced and complicated thoughts) but wow #in the big picture it wasnt even like. Horrible it was just badly mediocre #how does a tv14 cartoon get even more dumbed down and babytalk than a y7 one #i was really really worried about this like. like only a few days into waiting for the finale i was less nervous like foaming at the mouth k #inda excited nd more scared they were just gonna. abandon it. nd they did #nd this is such a pattern that i hope there isnt a season two #and something in me almost hopes that this is like. the end because i dont know how they could come back from this or give any more closure #if the biggest idea (or one of) of at is that everything changes i think the other is everything ends and ive felt this since atdl ep 4 but #theyre drinking from a dry creek atp #i hope people continue to love this show as the beautiful complicated thing it is and pretend that that didnt exist #what didnt exist #where am i #(in the same tone of voice as ice king from the beyond the grotto ep) #ill still be drawing at stuff tho i still love it beyond words #tumblr needs to let me add paragraph breaks in tags jfc if i was me reading this i would literally not even read it

[magicalgirlmascot]

Velika is so fucking funny because he's an evil god in the body of a funny little guy and every time he says literally anything he has his worstie absolutely frothing at the mouth

#kazi: morning velika hows it going #velika: once there was a boy who woke up with blue hair. to him it was a joy til he ran out to warm air and thought about his friends who'd #come to see. would they laugh? or had he got some strange disease? #kazi: dont know why i fucking bother #bionicle #parable stolen shamelessly from 'god shuffled his feet' by the crash test dummies bc i didnt feel like making one up #i know calling him an evil god is way oversimplifying things but also i dont care. hope this helps

[anglerflsh]

*trying not to sound desperate* what's your system for not struggling with social relations?

people like it when they're given subtle compliments and when you let them talk about their own achievements, so, as long as you can get someone to think you're genuinely interested in their life they should come out of it with a good opinion of you + also people love complaining together so if you can try and bring up something you both dislike enough to have a fun rant on

#my formula if I have to talk to a peer is open with a compliment or a similarly nice sentiment then ask a question related to it #and once they answer then make up one thing you have in common with their answer: that usually manages to be a decent conversation starter #like 'your handwriting looks nice' 'thanks!' 'do you write in cursive because it's faster?' 'no i just like the style more' 'ah me too!' et #<-very oversimplified but. yeah. that's my typical attempt to talk to someone that I don't know or that is an acquaintance #when i'm /required/ to do so of course. #I try to keep it at a 60/40 ratio of talking about them and about me also. It's an exchange of information so you do also have to share #+ try to gauge someone's sense of humor by the first few interactions so you can apply it when you talk to them as best you can #and try to come off as friendly and in a good mood even when you're really really not. That of course also helps #[.asks] #anonymous #oh and also try to remember what people tell you so the next time you can bring it up! That also helps your reputation.

[farm-lesbian]

fortnite skins they’re never going to give us because the gaming industry hates women:

barbie doll (with customizable styles so you can be who you wanna be, barbie!)

pokemon gym leaders (there’s already like a gaming legends skin series iirc)

IRL NWSL legends

twilight characters. (alice in her baseball fit perhaps?)

#what would be y’all’s dream fortnite skins for my gamer gyns?? #i’m oversimplifying and i know there are rights and IP things involved but i would hop on any of these #fnite #gamer posting

[tombware]

I think one of my big pet peeves is when people use real person logic for fictional characters instead of seeing them as vessels for a story. It's probably still a valid way to analyse media but I think it leads to less interesting interpretations. by overly sticking to the idea of why a real human being would say what a character has said you end up with quite trivial, boring and mostly meaningless interpretations

#basically i dont like any interpretation that strips away themes in favour of “well this is what would make sense for a real person” #when well. theyre not real and every line they say is there for a reason #Controversial and probably oversimplified statement but i think wed benefit from seeing stories as fables #this is mostly me thinking outloud about a lot of AA interpretations ive seen. ive noticed they treat him like hes a real person #following real person logic #I dont think stories should strive to be realistic in that sense #I also hold the view that theres more truth in exaggeration/unconventional framing than in realism when it comes to art #i noticed it a lot watching carol vs the world. it is incredibly truthful despite the bonkers way it chooses to tell its story #you know that thing they say about paintings where if you see like an impressionist painting of a sunset and #it feels more accurate to what its like to watch a sunset than a hyperrealistic painting of one? #just noticed i wrote carol and the end of tje world wrong but i have a 39 degrees fever and im on phone #I loveeee metaphors and themes and framing and shit. much more compellimg than having characters that are Just Like Real People to me #every written line in a story has intent subconciously or not i think #shouldve referred to it as cinemasins logic too. Easier to understand #cinemasins impact has been a plague of catastrophic consequences #can you tell im feverish

[colorisbyshe]

i love trying to figure out the weather in times of climate change. like the news will be like HUGE STORM… maybe not though…. NO STORM… but idk maybe some high winds and snow! actually just sleet :3 or is it???

the weather man i watch has started to bring in multiple different weather models and is still like “and none of these might be correct, we just don’t know.”

#i constantly think about the surprise hurricane in mexico #i do think that’s an omen of things to come #(also i know im oversimplifying what happened there but still)

[bloodybellycomb]

Imagine that you go through a deeply traumatic experience and at the end of the horrible ordeal, you get to meet God. Like actually, God. And so you ask God to help you with your suffering. And God answers with,

"Sorry! I cannot do that! I will force you to join me on my weird sex orgy spaceship though."

And then God starts referencing an internet meme from 10,000 years ago that you do not understand

#the locked tomb #tlt #harrow the ninth #i know this is oversimplifying things #but its so funny to me #in a weird messed up way #birdy chirps

[divorcetual]

this is horrifying . i dont think you should be on roads i think the peacocks around your hosue should just take you everywhere . this ks so fucked up

I AGREE WITH THIS cars are an affront to humanity and every one of them is born with the intent to harm as many living beings as possible

#WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING FUCKED UP #so I live in oregon right #and im goin to a language program in japan this summer #note that japan drives on the other side of the road And has completely different signs than the us #turns out oregon and japan have this. agreement thing? Where if you hold a drivers license in one you can get a license in the other withou #having to take the knowledge OR practical test #like u literally just go in and go Hi heres my oregon license heres the japanese translations for what it all says. #and u get a japanese one #that sounds like im oversimplifying it for humor Im Not #its fucked up my host family is gonna ask if I can drive and im gonna LIE im gonna say NO i tried and then I hit someone and I can never #drive again or they will shoot me. I will take the subway

[corset]

The particular dimensions of mental illness I am inhabiting that make my brain latch onto Vash and Vergil as opposed to Vash and Dante or Vergil and Knives are something you simply have to experience with me first hand

#In both cases however I am the older twin. Know this #I'm joking people just tend to 1:1 compare them that way and the whole red and blue thing or whatever. #I've been sitting with the Vergil thing since 2018-2019 though so I guess he has seniority #Our brain has always been wacky as hell about fictional characters because of chameleoning/not relating to real people as much #and never having much of a stable identity #On a more serious note I think people are just having fun with it but that some people /do/ kind of oversimplify the characters in question #based on really surface stuff. Whatever I don't want to talk about this why am I even typing these tags