#Mike: i want her gone- | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

chirpsythismorning · 3 months

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Can we talk about how Jonathan might've been able to clock Mike simply because of what happened with him and Nancy in season two?

This will be a long post, so you might want to strap in or save it for later.

In Will and Mike's case, it would obviously be much different from Jonathan and Nancy's situation, given that you know, they're gay. But we still have Jonathan arguably going through a similar experience as Will, while Mike is going through a similar experience as Nancy.

In s2, we see Nancy confront Jonathan about how she waited for him before getting back with Steve, which is a revelation to him. Then they're at Murray's and she's struggling to say she loves Steve, after a handful of moments between them that felt like she might return Jonathan’s feelings. And you can clearly see it in his eyes, listening to Murray imply that they have feelings for each other, with him looking back and forth sort of in awe of what's happening, like he's starting to question if she might actually like him back.

Will doesn't have that same affordance as Jonathan to really hope, at least not anymore. Which is why these relationships in s2 and s4 end differently for these two brothers.

Based on all the signs he was seeing that Nancy felt the same, Jonathan decided to take the plunge to admit to Nancy how he felt, and at that same moment Nancy had the courage to show how she felt. In Will and Mike's case, Will wasn't ready to take the plunge to admit to Mike how he felt, at the same moment Mike didn't have the courage to show how he felt.

What's so painfully hilarious to me about all of this though, is that Jonathan arguably starts the season in the same shoes as most of the audience, where from his perspective, it's becoming obvious to him now that Will like's Mike, but that Mike does not feel the same way.

First at Rink-O-Mania, Mike appears a little uncomfortable upon hugging Will. Then as the happy couple continues on their adventure into Rink-O-Mania, he watches Will lagging behind moping. And then unfortunately he's out of commission for the rest of the evening...

But once he's sober and back to being an attentive brother the following morning, we see him watching them at breakfast, with Mike barely sparing Will a glance, all while Will is blatantly staring, almost like he's waiting for Mike to look back, only for Mike to get up and walk away.

All of these instances gotta be SCREAMING unrequited gay love to Jonathan. He's already gotten signs for years that Will is gay, these are now just the signs that are instilling his suspicions that Will has feelings for Mike. He could have easily interpreted their relationship in the early seasons as young best friends, with Will seeming to have a crush on Mike, and with them growing up and that potentially including Will's straight friend distancing himself from him because he doesn't feel the same. It's not the most unexpected thing in the world considering.

But then there's a shift.

Suddenly he's creeping up on them talking in his room. And we know he was listening in on the conversation because he brings up Owens when he sits down. As he's eavesdropping, he's probably thinking something innocent like Aww they're making up! And like, hey! Even if Mike doesn't feel the same, which is okay and entirely expected honestly, at least he still cares about Will enough to make things right after acting so out of character. Still, I'm not gonna lie, that sounded a lot like flirting to me--

Then he's knocking on Will's door like 30 minutes or less later only to find Mike and Will back on their bullshit. Mike suddenly isn't going out of his way to ignore or put Will on the back burner. In fact, he's on his bed and they're talking, again! The door is even closed this time, which is interesting. This has gotta be a good sign in Jon's eyes. Nothing to worry about! Right? Right...?

But then suddenly this shift continues, going in a direction he probably didn't expect.

I mean, this is literally an identical jancy parallel we have here with byler on the hood of the car, with Jonathan right there to witness it. Despite him maybe only now subconsciously picking up on the similarities between Will and Mike to him and Nancy here, he's at least taking note (I mean he's even got his gay map out and everything).

It isn't until the van scene happens, that I think Jonathan starts to genuinely consider his suspicions, which is that Mike might actually like Will back.

EVERY time we get a shot of Jonathan looking back at Will and Mike in the van, followed by a shot of his POV from the rearview mirror, we're faced with Mike looking at Will while Will is looking away.

As Jonathan is hearing Will confirm his suspicions about his feelings for Mike, he's simultaneously witnessing Mike not looking at Will with disgust, but something more akin to reverence. All of those moments in the van that we witnessed, including all the ways Mike looked at Will and everything that was said, Jonathan was right there.

And what's even more insane about this scene, is that it circles back to Jonathan as a character himself.

I remember when people were talking about how odd it was that we never saw Jonathan with a camera in s4. After 3 seasons in a row of making his passion for photography a big part of his identity, that part of him was apparently absent entirely this time around... But was it really?

This is the same guy that said, "Sometimes, people don't really say what they're really thinking. But you capture the right moment, it says more."

Jonathan might not have had his camera in s4, but this was without a doubt one of those moments where he captured something more.

Something that I also think get's highly overlooked about this scene, especially when it comes to Jonathan looking back at them, being followed by a shot of Mike staring at Will, is that he could see both of their reactions the whole time, from beginning to end. Will nor the audience had the affordance of knowing because Will was facing the other way at the end, while we on the other-hand were blurred from even having the chance, despite Mike literally being in the frame. But not Jonathan. He even lets us see what he sees, a few times, but not at the very end, which would have been nice after they didn't let us see Mike's reaction seconds before this.

Let's just stop right there for a second though and circle back to what I consider to be the first time Jonathan really picked up on Will's feelings for Mike, which was at the end of s3, in a sequence that is a little too relevant to the van scene if you ask me, given that they are almost direct parallels.

While these parallels are pretty spot on visually, they are also near spot on narratively when it comes to the evolution each of these characters are experiencing.

For Will in the first scene, it's sadness that he's moving away from his friends in Hawkins and also feeling like he's losing Mike, after what looks like him and El making up, which makes him scared he'll distance himself again. For Jonathan, it's sympathy for his brother who appears to have some very deep feelings for his friend, feelings he can't quite grasp yet but soon enough will.

For Will in the second scene, it's heartbreak that he has to accept that Mike will never feel the same, knowing that supporting his relationship with El (encouraging it honestly) will likely turn out just as it did last time, with him losing Mike all over again, for the last time. For Jonathan it's sympathy for his brother who has now confirmed his suspicions that the feelings he has for Mike are more than just that of a friend.

Given that this parallel reinforces the same feelings Will and Jonathan had in s3 to now, why would this not also reinforce those same feelings that Mike had in s3 to now?

In the first scene, Mike was visibly distraught, with dialogue from Hopper in the background applying a little too perfectly with what he was feeling in that moment, which was scared. He’s apparently back together with El now, despite them doing just fine as friends for the last 3 months, as well as him and Will just having finally gone back to them being on good terms again. But now, it’s like he’s right back where he started at the beginning of s3, feeling obligated to be the perfect boyfriend to El, and as a result, having no choice in his eyes but to distance himself from Will. Mike then walks into his house looking like a zombie, almost emotionless stepping into his mother's embrace.

Now, I say almost emotionless because it looks like Mike was trying to hold back showing how he truly felt in this moment. He's not crying like he did in s1 when he lost Will that first time. Time has passed and things have changed (he doesn't want things to change). And he's trying his best to keep it together. But the in-focus close-ups make it clear that he is definitely not okay.

What's so impactful about these parallels is that it presents the inner struggle both of these characters are having, both queer and experiencing doubts, but in different ways and for different reasons.

Will is the one who covers it all up with lies, hiding the tears in his eyes, because boys don't cry.

Mike is the one who has never cried to them, just to his soul (RUN AWAY! TURN AWAY! RUN AWAY! TURN AWAY! RUN AWAY!!!).

If you actually try to get a gage on Mike's in-focus emotions in that first scene vs. his out-of-focus emotions in that second scene, well they're not that far off from each other.

We go from Mike smiling vibrantly at Will, to him now slowly turning away to look back down at the painting, with whatever the hell emotion this is...

It's near impossible to catch because of how out-of-focus it is, but looking a lot closer, it honestly appears like Mike is feeling something akin to sadness that he's trying to mask. For a moment it even looks like he turns his head to wince emotionally, only to correct himself.

And call me crazy, but these shots also low-key parallel each other. Mike looking down trying to keep his emotions in check and failing miserably, only to look up and meet eyes with someone whose witnessing it.

With each shot before this of Jonathan observing Mike looking at Will, with him showing all the emotions Will never got to see and everything else in between, I wonder what Jon saw this time? Probably another thing he didn't expect.

Can you just try to imagine the silence in this van, accompanied by Will's muffled sobs, and then try to imagine Mike turning to look down at the painting, only to sneak a glance, and then go right back to looking at the painting, IN SILENCE, and then try to tell me how the assumption that Mike didn’t notice Will crying makes any sense, like realistically?

Yeah me and Jonathan are confused too.

Right now, Jonathan's probably wondering why Mike was acting a little fruity and repressed during the painting reveal. And that although he may have a penchant for being able to 'capture the right moment', Mike is sticking with his story (despite all the stalling and doubt). He is 100% straight!

And so maybe this is where Jonathan tries to accept what is being presented to him as the truth, despite the contradictions in front of him. It's likely that despite the way Mike looks at Will and acts around him, in ways he would have assumed coming from Nancy in s2 would've been evidence that she felt the same, it probably doesn't apply to Mike.

Maybe Jonathan's ready to accept that it's a lot more likely Will is experiencing unrequited love as a gay kid growing up in a small town, the most predictable experience a gay kid could go through, and in contrast Mike just feels too bad to let Will down easy.

Or who knows, maybe Mike could still be a little bit gay too...

But it doesn't matter anyways. Mike seems to be adamant about this and so there's really nothing else Jonathan can he do besides tell his brother he'll be there for him no matter what. And so he does just that.

But then Mike just has to surprise him one last time.

For those that don't know, the line Mike gives here in his monologue was in part pulled from Will's monologue in the van. Most don't know this because this line didn't make the final cut for the van scene, but in the official script the writers posted, what we find is an almost a direct parallel.

Which makes the reaction shots of Will and Jonathan directly after Mike says this all the more epic.

From Will's end he was probably hearing Mike say this and just thinking 'Damn. Well, that's what you get for using your feelings to inspire Mike to profess his love to El.'

But from Jonathan's end, I don't think his outside POV of these events overlapping was nearly as naive as his brothers understanding of the events. Because why the fuck would Mike need to use Will's feelings to inspire him to profess his love to El in the first place? Is this what Mike has been struggling with? Really? Why before every moment Mike takes action in this scene, is Will's hand literally pushing him into it? Why is Mike being so dramatic about saying I love you, stuttering and rambling about her being a superhero, not saying nearly as meaningful of things as what Will said in the van?

And then it hits him.

Mike is reminding him a little too much of another Wheeler right now...

Nancy Wheeler, who was afraid of what would happen if she accepted herself for who she really was, leading her to retreat back to the safety of Steve. Because Nancy liked Steve, but she didn't love Steve.

And now here is Mike Wheeler, who has went from being incredibly distant with Will after reuniting with El, something that is very unlike the Mike he knew in previous seasons, to something more himself again after they make up, with him looking at Will with adoration after hearing his words in the van, only to turn away and look heartbroken. Mike who is now struggling to simply tell El he loves her with Will right behind him literally yelling at him to do it.

And now it's like all those little moments are starting to add up to Jonathan.

Suddenly all those signs he picked up on from Will when he was younger are now blending in with moments Will shared with Mike. It was Mike who jumped in after him and his mom's speech to Will in the shed in s2, with tears in his eyes recalling the day that they met (without being asked, let alone pushed to). And it's Mike who is now looking like he's at war with himself as he attempts to give encouragement to El, just like he did with Will in s2, but this time he needs someone to push him to do it, and that person just so happens to be Will. After just finding out about Will's feelings and also while assuming El wants him to love her that way still, Mike is stuck.

I don't think it's takes a genius to consider Jonathan is capable of realizing how fucked they all are in this situation.

As much as Mike isn't ready for a sleuth of reasons, Will isn't ready either.

This provides a huge contrast between the bylers ², because while Jonathan and Nancy went through a similar experience to Will and Mike, them being ready to accept it and act on it didn't involve nearly as many factors and risks. Will and Mike also have the added barrier that is homophobia.

Will's internalized homophobia lies in part with assuming Mike could never feel the same based on some of the words he said in their last two fights, with parts being painfully reminiscent of the things his dad and bullies used to say about him. These are also words that contradict Mike's own words and actions from the previous seasons, things that did once give Will hope. The shame and guilt that comes with falling for your best friend, who you now know will never feel the same after being foolish enough to believe it not too long ago, and who might not even want to be your friend anymore upon finding out the truth, is understandable. He can't have hope like Jonathan can. It's just not the same.

Mike's internalized homophobia lies with assuming El wants him to love her, along with their relationship being expected and socially acceptable from everyone around him. Though unfortunately for her he feels abundantly more in love in the moments he shares with Will. Despite trying to make it work with El as hard as he could, because she's amazing and all any guy could hope for in a girlfriend, he can't ignore the fact that the feelings he has for these two people are different. The shame and guilt that comes with you, a boy, falling for your best friend, who is also a boy, and who is starting to show that he feels the same, all while you can't muster up the courage to break up with your girlfriend, nor can you muster up the courage to tell her that you love her, not when she's begging you, dying or even just simply at the end of a letter, is pretty understandable too. He can't have hope like Nancy can. It's just not the same.

Spoiler: They were not ready.

PS: I'm still not over the fact that they low-key confirmed these events elsewhere in the story...

#byler #st analysis #pocketgate #lettergate #i'm aware this is a hot (big brain) take #but i'm like 76% sure mike understood will in the van scene #also why mike is gonna finally be dealing with some personal business in s5...#just want to add that this makes the scene at Nina hit harder #also #mike trying and failing to tell el he loves her or break up with her at surfer boy and stalling because he just can't fucking do either?#mike's face when will pushes him to profess his love to el right in front of him???#honestly i dont think mike would've gone through with his monologue if he didn't think this is what el wanted in large part #i think he thought that if he did break up with her she wouldn't need him at all anymore #or more specifically if told her the truth she might hate him for it and just not want to be in his life in the aftermath of that #this is why he struggled so much with being honest #it was either lie and suffer but get to keep her in his life most likely or tell her the truth and potentially lose her and still suffer #it's just that now he has literally no choice but to conform and be with her all while knowing it's not what his heart truly wants #the heart not being true to himself jumpstarted the apocalypse #everyone act surprised #byler getting jonathan’d in s5 can be something so personal #no but imagine jon getting even more signals mike feels the same 😭#and he tries to talk to will about it but will just gets upset like pls stop why are you saying this?#or imagine him talking about it subtly with Nancy and her being like no way #only to see it for herself #maybe then Nancy would try to talk to Mike about how he’s feeling #idk I could genuinely see byler just getting byler’d individually #but it’s clear at this point Jonathan is extremely suspicious #honestly all I think it would take is him having intel about their previous fights #if he found out mike defended his behavior by insisting that they’re friends…#jonathan would just be like… oh shit.. the first lie…

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wheeler-things · 1 year

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Mike Wheeler, the Hand and Eye of Vecna, and D&D as Foreshadowing

I'm about to say something unhinged.

It's going to take a fair amount of words to unpack (sorry about that) because I need to give context before I just come out and say it. And I'm fully aware that it's just one of hundreds of possible options for s5, so I'm really not trying to convince anybody of anything just... I was thinking about foreshadowing and analogies again, and something occurred to me and then it snowballed and.... hm.

Okay, so, I talked about it a lot more in this post, but the key point for what I'm talking about here is my belief that the Party's first D&D game in s1 actually foreshadows all of the main Upside Down antagonists from seasons 1-4, with the D&D Demogorgon actually representing Henry. Essentially, my breakdown came down to this:

"Something is coming. Something hungry for blood." -> s1 -> the Demogorgon. "A shadow grows on the wall behind you, swallowing you in darkness." -> s2 -> the shadow monster. "An army of troglodytes charge into the chamber!" -> s3 -> the Mind Flayer and the Flayed. "The Demogorgon!" -> s4 -> Henry Creel.

So, the remaining unaccounted for villains (assuming that the way the characters use D&D enemies as analogies is not necessarily representative of/accurate to what they actually foreshadow within the narrative) are:

Mike's Thessalhydra

Will's Juju hoard

Eddie's Vecna

I have some speculation on the first two, but it's the third that I'm going to do a deep dive into my thoughts on.

Since this is pretty long and it takes a bit of time to get through the contextualizing, let me clarify up front that this ties into the "Mike has a connection to the Upside Down" theories which I love, but which I know are not to everyone's tastes.

Who IS Vecna (in Stranger Things)?

From the campaign in s4e1, we learn:

Vecna is hiding in plain sight among his own cultists

"His skin is shrivelled. Desiccated. And [...] he is not only missing his left arm, but his left eye"

Vecna was believed to be dead/killed by Kas

An 11 isn't enough to defeat him, but a 20 is (notably, we don't actually hear what Dustin and Erica were trying to roll to do-- based on the context of the scene, we assume that it was combat-based, but it is not explicitly laid out)

Later, in s4e2, Vecna is described (in terms that the characters start to tie to the entity we later learn is Henry, in an effort to theorize about what's going on) as:

An undead creature of great power

A spellcaster

A dark wizard

Note: In the context of Eddie's description of what happened to Chrissy, the term "Vecna's curse" is brought up. This leads into the description of Vecna's characteristics listed above, but no further details (as far as I can find or remember) are given about what Vecna's curse is like in Eddie's game. Which leads me to...

Who IS Vecna (in D&D)?

Alright, I have to admit-- I've played D&D before, but my friends have a tendency to prefer MotW/PbtA-based games, and even when we HAVE done D&D, the storylines and characters have been entirely from the DM's mind/not from anything official. As a result, everything I'm about to say here is based on what Google can tell me (I'm aware others have talked about this before, but I think it gives some useful context for where I'm going to go in this analysis, if I make sure we’re all on the same page about the background D&D lore).

The main websites that I used to get information for this part can be found here, here, and here.

So! The long and short of it seems to be that in life, Vecna was a wizard who built a "terrible empire". In order to avoid death, he turned himself into a lich, and in undeath, he continued to grow his empire. He had a lieutenant named Kas, who Vecna gifted a sword to. For unknown (though the speculation does not paint him in a positive light) reasons, Kas murdered Vecna, leaving behind only Vecna's eye and left hand along with a pile of ash. However, his spirit survived the attack and he spent "eons" regaining his former power. In the meantime, his artifacts, cults, and "dark secrets" continued corrupting others/pushing them towards evil.

It may also be notable that Vecna was known to have a "formidable and hideous" temper.

And... that's the short version of everything that I could find about Vecna in D&D.

Henry Creel as Vecna

So, this is the obvious conclusion, because the characters call Henry "Vecna", which seems to have largely lead to the audience assumption that the Vecna in Eddie's campaign definitely foreshadows Henry. And I want to start out by acknowledging that I do think this is absolutely a possibility! I could 100% be wrong about the Demogorgon in Mike's campaign representing Henry, and even if I'm not, there's nothing that says there can't be two moments of foreshadowing for the same antagonist.

If Henry is Vecna, I know there are a lot of theories about who Kas is, and I'm not interested in getting too deep into the weeds on that particular debate. With that being said, I will say that when I first watched s4 I personally thought it was obvious that, if Henry was actually the person foreshadowed by Eddie's Vecna, then El was clearly Kas and had already fulfilled her part in that role?

I mean, Henry didn't have any real power in the lab so obviously El wasn't his lieutenant. But she was clearly his favourite (or, depending on how you read his character, he at least did a good job of pretending that she was his favourite). He gave her a weapon (in that he taught her to use her anger to weaponize her powers). At first she helped him with things (ie. getting Soteria out of his neck), but later she turned against him and used the "weapon" he "gave" her in order to, as far as she understood at the time, kill him (literally turned him to ash, and he appears when we see him next in the Upside Down). But, of course, he wasn't actually dead, and in line with Eddie's campaign, he came back. El tried to face him alone, but it failed/missed just like the eleven roll.

You may or may not agree with me on that, but I personally think it's the most likely scenario. I just... can't see them recreating everyone thinking Henry has been killed for a THIRD time only to bring him back AGAIN. And in my opinion, El-as-Kas (but she's already fulfilled the role) does fit very well with what we know about Vecna from Eddie's campaign/with a number of the details from D&D.

I will also concede that you could make the case that Henry was hiding in plain sight among his cultists during the time when he was interacting with baby!El (as in, he was disguised as a lab assistant, and obviously the whole Lab is dedicated to, essentially, recreating Henry's powers so that's sort of like a cult to him, I suppose), and that he is certainly, as of the present timeline in s4, something like an undead creature as well was being very powerful and functionally a dark wizard. His flesh is even shrivelled and desiccated after his time in the Upside Down.

All of which is to say, without speculating heavily about the potential events of s5, Henry does look incredibly appealing as the thing foreshadowed by Eddie's campaign.

But…

The Case for Someone Else as Vecna

There are a few main reasons why I think that Henry is a red herring as the thing Vecna was foreshadowing.

Firstly, and least compellingly (I have to mention it, but it's not evidence that stands on its own), if Mike's Demogorgon foreshadows Henry, but the Party mis-used its name for the UD's Demogorgon because it was the monster they happened to be fighting at the time, then it stands to reason that it's possible that they may have mis-used Vecna's name to apply it to Henry for the same reason-- it was the most recent/most superficially relevant enemy the Party had fought in D&D and, as such, made for a decent enough analogy to the current situation.

Secondly, just on a narrative scale, if El has already played the Kas role in the s4 flashbacks and then has also already made her failed roll in present day s4... then literally all that's left is to roll a 20 and win? It's too smooth/too easy to take up a whole season. Obviously, the writers can throw in extra drama and struggle and tension, but if we're already past the failed 11 roll, then... it can't be too intense or else the foreshadowing loses its tight 1:1 dynamic with what's happening in the plot. And “not too intense” is very rarely what people are going for when they write a finale season.

Thirdly... despite how well Henry aligns with almost all of the descriptions of Eddie's Vecna, he does not align with what I would argue are the two most emphasized descriptors (the two that Eddie puts the most passion and physicality into describing, and the two which seem to actually make it clear to the Club that the unknown cultist is Vecna). Namely: Henry very much is not missing an eye or an arm. His left arm is odd looking, but that's not because he ever lost it and had to replace it. It appears to just be part of whatever the Upside down is doing to him/turning him into (God, I hope he's turning into a Demogorgon-- I saw someone suggest that at one point and I wish I could find the post to link it here, because I think it would be the funniest and most fitting option). And Henry's eyes both look kind of odd/cloudy now, but not only does he have both of them, but the flashback to him wandering the Upside Down after El threw him in there make it explicitly clear that his injured/initially damaged eye was his right eye. It would have been just as easy, and changed nothing about the overall narrative, if they had made Henry’s left eye blind instead/to subtly align with the Vecna analogy, so the fact that they so pointedly didn’t suggests to me that, in terms of foreshadowing, Henry may not actually be Vecna at all. In fact, there is nothing at all that I can remember connecting Henry to the idea of left eyes, except that the characters call him Vecna, and Eddie's Vecna is described as being devoid of one.

Also (and this is just a small point), I do think that it's interesting that in D&D, Vecna's backstory includes him creating a dark empire, and there are a lot of theories abounding about the idea that someone in the main cast created or significantly altered the Upside Down (I've mostly seen them about Will and Mike, but I imagine there are other similar theories for other characters). Because what we know for sure is that Henry absolutely did not create it, and likely did not significantly alter it either (at least not until he met the shadow monster), I do think that it's worth noting that this is another way in which Henry's character diverges from at least the D&D version of Vecna.

Detour: How do Superpowers Work in Stranger Things?

I may or may not have driven myself mad trying to figure this out. And I also may or may not have spent a long time resigned to the idea that Kali had been retconned by s4 showing that all the other numbers seem to have basically the same powers as Henry and El (with the possible exception of El's ability to open portals into the UD-- unless Henry had this ability as well before the Mind Flayer took a chunk out of El in s3... we simply don't know yet).

I feel like I maybe heard something, at one point, that suggested that all of the kids in the lab had telekinesis and then also at least one other power. However, I can't find a source on that? Also, I don't believe there's any direct evidence of this shown in s4 (and Kali's powers outright contradict it), given that the only non-telekinetic power that we were shown by anybody but Henry and El was 010 who was able to see what others were doing in his mind (which seemed to be very similar to El's mind void abilities, if maybe a little stronger or more well-practised).

Either way, I think the evidence given in the show suggests that there are three possible ways to develop or obtain supernatural abilities in the Stranger Things universe.

Via experimentation. This was the case for El, and very likely also most of the other kids in the Lab. It also seems to have been the case for El's mother, who we see being able to flicker the lights and change the channels on her television with her mind.

Through infiltration by and/or extended exposure to the Upside Down. I'm a little more tentative on this one, because my main example of this is Will, and we all know that there are a LOT of theories about Will's abilities. And I want to stress that I cannot definitively say they're wrong. All I can say is that, as the show exists right now, one of many possible readings is that Will's abilities, such as sensing the Mind Flayer, seem to be a result of his experiences with the Upside Down. If this is accurate, then it represents a method of obtaining powers that is distinct from how El got hers. I’m not at all trying to discount the possibility that Will could have other powers that he was born with or developed due to experimentation (I love a good Will-born-with-powers theory!), I just want to consider the possibility that Will’s powers could be a result of his experiences with the Upside Down.

Being born with them/developing them spontaneously. Henry is the obvious example of this, but I also believe that Kali is another example. Her powers are completely different than those of the other numbers. Moreover, Kali was abducted when she was five, unlike El who was abducted as an infant. To me, this suggests that Kali was likely not the result of Brenner's experimentation, but rather, more similar to Henry in that she spontaneously developed powers, and Brenner took advantage of that fact. If this is the case, it would explain why Kali's powers are so different from those of everybody else that we've seen-- because it is likely that Brenner used Henry Creel as the basis upon which his experiments were developed, explaining why they largely seem to have powers very similar to Henry.

If this assessment is correct (and I cannot stress enough how speculative I am being here because this is still a huge mystery in the show itself), then I do think it's interesting that Henry (who is almost certainly going to be the main/active antagonist for the vast majority of s4, even if he doesn't turn out to be "Vecna" from Eddie's campaign in the end) represents 3/3 of these points (he was experimented on by Brenner, he has been changed by the Upside Down, and he developed his powers spontaneously), and yet, out of our protagonists, only 2/3 of those points are currently represented (El who developed her powers via experimentation, and Will who likely/possibly-- I know everyone has their own strong opinions on this developed them via exposure to the Upside Down)?

In reality, I think that if my interpretation of how getting superpowers works in this universe is accurate, then it seems to me that we will very likely have a character with powers that developed naturally to complement El and Will.

However, both for narrative reasons (it would feel too shoehorned in/too Deus ex Machina) and for fitting in with the other established characters who seem to have spontaneously developed powers reasons, it would not make sense for any of our protagonists to all of a sudden start moving things with their minds. Narratively, it would just seem like it was being added in at the last minute and, anyway, it seems like Kali developed her powers/showed clear signs of them before the age of five, and Henry developed his around the age of twelve, so it’s likely that if any of our characters were going to develop powers, it would start before their teenage years.

So, assuming we're not getting Erica (God, I wish) or Holly (...I mean, I wouldn't complain) suddenly developing powers of their own, it seems likely that if any of our characters are going to have spontaneous powers, they likely already have them/are already using them. However, I don't think any of our beloved ensemble cast would know they have powers and not share that with the class. They all want to beat the Upside Down, and El and Will have already more than shown how useful superpowers are in that effort.

And... on a narrative level, let's be real. If this is the direction things are going, the reveal of these powers/abilities cannot be a joyous occasion. It has to hurt. Because if it doesn't hurt, we're back to the Deus ex Machina issue. But if it hurts-- if the reveal causes severe conflict for the character in question and with the people around them, if it breaks them down and reveals new things about them, if the reveal feels like a loss, in the moment when it comes about, rather than a win for the cast... then it might work.

For that to happen, the repressed/extant but unknown powers have to connect to the Upside Down. They have to have had a significant hand in all the pain that our characters have gone through. Possibly via either creating the Upside Down or the shadow monster, or else through some other connection. But the connection has to be there, because the reveal needs to cause fear, pain, and conflict for the characters.

Detour Cont'd: So... Who Is It?

So... if my wild speculation above is in any way accurate, I think it's worth taking a look at our established characters to see who could have done it.

So, Henry was wandering the Upside Down from 1979 onwards, El opened her first gate in that same year, so I suspect that if any of our characters did accidentally create/influence the Upside Down it likely happened starting around this time. In '79 (dangerously assuming my math is correct), Nancy (also Jonathan and Robin) would have been 11-12, and the Party would have been 7-8, making them the primary possibilities. - I think it's fair to assume that if they're doing this, it would be a major character that we've known since s1, so that discounts Robin and Max. - Additionally, given the composition of the final shot of s4, I think it's reasonable to assume that this character would be in that final shot, because they would have a significant role to play in s5. That cuts out Lucas and Dustin as well. - I'll also say that we can cut out El and Will, since their powers are (under this specific interpretation) already accounted for. - That leaves the remaining options as: Nancy, Jonathan, and Mike. - And, I mean... Mike's the one who's in the middle of that final shot, just as much as Will is. Mike's the one who always knows weird random stuff about the Upside Down and about El's powers. Mike's the one whose plans always work out. Mike's the only one who has never managed to land a punch/at least not managed to land a punch in the A plot of a season climax. Mike's the one whose emotions are a total mystery to the audience (outside of those who engage in intense rewatching and analysis to pick it apart lol). And… Mike’s the one who’s always depicted in a trio with El and Will (I know this is love triangle imagery, but it could potentially have a double meaning). - My point being-- if all of my previous reasoning/interpreting is accurate, then Mike is the only character who makes any sense in this role.

Also, just talking about logistics here-- in order to be comprehensible to audience members who are not about to sit down and rewatch the show a million times in order to pick up on subtle clues and hints, there are a few issues that are going to require a decent amount of screen time in order to explain/develop in s5. To my mind, (outside of ship dynamics) those are:

Where is Max? Why can't El find her?

What is Will's connection to the Upside Down? Did the Demogorgon really take Will in s1? Why is Henry/the Mind Flayer so focused on him?

Why is the Upside Down stuck in time/why and how did it start looking like Hawkins?

What the hell is going on in Mike Wheeler's head?

How will everybody react to the Upside Down and its monsters now that they're bound to start becoming common knowledge around Hawkins?

How are they going to deal with the military? What is going to happen to El if her location is compromised? How will this impact the fight against Henry/the Upside Down?

What is the relationship between Henry and the shadow monster/Mind Flayer? Is it possible for the gang to kill/destroy/incapacitate both? How will they do that?

My point is, there's one question on this list that doesn't seem to be connected into the Upside Down plot in any way-- and that's point 4. The question about Mike. Because realistically speaking, Stranger Things has a Mike Wheeler-shaped problem. He's a protagonist every season, and he's literally equally sharing the centre of the screen with Will in the final shot of s4, so if we're getting a Will Byers protagonist moment in s5, I think it's safe to suggest that we're also getting a Mike Wheeler protagonist moment.

But generally speaking, people don't want a Mike Wheeler protagonist moment, because people don't like him. And obviously that's because the underlying issues that he's going through have been hidden from plain view, but, like... you don't do that for no reason. Narratively speaking, you only do that if you're amping up for a big reveal.

And, yes. Mike and Will getting together would absolutely be a massive reveal and I can fully understand why they wouldn't want to spoil it... but. To get people to care about Mike again, and to believe that he "deserves" Will, they need to devote time and narrative space to explaining Mike's emotional state, both regarding his sexuality, and regarding whatever mental health issues he's struggling with. And they could have put more of this in s4! Mike and Will had FOUR heart to hearts, discounting the van scene. They very much could have had Mike express some of his (likely) experiences with depression and/or PTSD, without having to show their hand about his sexuality/feelings for Will. Doing so would have helped the audience have more sympathy for/understanding of Mike, AND would have significantly cut down on the ground they have to cover with his character in s5.

Because... they're going to need to take up a fair amount of time in s5 to show all of the stuff they need to cover with Mike if they actually are intending to follow through with him being queer and also, like, not beloathed by a large swath of the audience, they're going to need to connect his emotional issues to the Upside Down/A plot somehow. Which they can absolutely do! Henry's whole thing is perfect for that. And it worked with Max-- but there's a difference.

Because, with Max, her experiences with Henry/Vecna's curse were used to give the audience new information to help solve the mystery of the season. But we don't need that again. And... sure, Mike could get cursed/attacked and learn something useful in the fight against Henry, in addition to showcasing all the stuff that's going on inside his head, but given that Will's back in town and is already psychically linked with Henry/the Mind Flayer... I mean, it seems more natural to have that dynamic fall to Will?

This is a lot of talking, but my POINT is... they did not have to hold Mike's emotional state so close to their chests. Let's be real-- they could have at least started to outline the idea that Mike might be struggling with mental health issues, and nobody who isn't already reading the writing on the wall for Mike/Will would be jumping to assume it meant he was struggling with any gay feelings. Like, let's be absolutely real here: they could have had Mike outright say "I don't know, it's like you left and all of a sudden I didn't have the energy to do anything all I could do was sit around and miss you" to Will and people would have understood it as "ohhhh he was depressed because he missed El/has trauma about El disappearing on him/leaving him".

So, if we're reading Mike correctly-- if he's struggling with mental health issues and they're putting in all the little clues and hints to it that we're picking up on/that will be obvious on a rewatch after some huge reveal... then whatever he's going through has to tie into the supernatural plot in a big way. And, more than that, it needs to be linked to it in a way that is surprising enough/enough of a twist to warrant all this secrecy about it.

AND (and this is a hill I am prepared to die on)... Will and El are both main characters, but so is Mike. The plot would not have started without Will. The plot would not have started without El. But also... the plot would not have started without Mike. Without Mike things are totally different, because whoever found El instead would not have been the exact combination of nurturing and feral that made s1 Mike hide her in his basement/believe her the instant she implied she even maybe knew how to find Will. And that's just the first thing that he did which unquestionably pushed the plot in the direction it's going. There's a reason he shares centre screen with Will at the end of s4 (after El had her extended closeup because I'm sure she's going to continue having her protagonist moment in s5, AS SHE SHOULD). Mike isn't just a love interest. He's a protagonist in his own right-- this is his coming of age story, just as much as it is Will's and El's. And, while it's entirely possible that they might have a plan that includes him being the only one of the trio without any particular personal connection to the supernatural plot, I do think it's worth considering that, just as is the case for Will and El, it's at least possible that Mike might have a plotline outside of his romantic relationships, and that, as the third protagonist/third leg of the protagonist trio... it's at least possible that said plotline might have direct ties to the supernatural A plot.

(Also, yes, the ending shot does also suggest that Hop, Joyce, Nancy, and Jonathan are also protagonists for s5-- I feel like this tracks with their roles in s1, and I fully expect them to play major roles in s5, but if this is actually a coming of age story, then it's the Party who are, really, the ones spending this whole time coming of age. That's why I'm making the distinction.)

I bring all of this up, because I believe that it lends context to why I think it is possible that Eddie's Vecna actually references/foreshadows Mike, in particular's, s5 role.

Mike as Vecna

So, here's the thing. If Mike did create the Upside Down, or at least the shadow monster, then he (or at least his repressed emotions and/or dark thoughts) is an antagonistic force in the show. That doesn't mean he's bad or evil (Will was an antagonistic force in s2, and he's sort of the exact opposite of bad or evil). Meaning that it would make sense to foreshadow him as an antagonist, even if ultimately he is a protagonist/on the side of the rest of the gang.

Returning to what we know about Vecna from the show, I'd like to combine it with some of the common theories/ideas that I've seen floating around regarding Mike's potential plot/future in s5.

First of all, Eddie's Vecna is shown hiding among the cultists. Mike obviously doesn't have a cult, although, if he is (unintentionally) the cause of all the Upside Down business, he is hiding in plain sight, both to the other characters and to the audience.

^ Bringing back this screenshot for absolutely no reason at all

I would also point out that Mike is the only character, of the viable list (even expanded back out to include Will and El) of those who could even maybe have played the role in creating/influencing the Upside Down, who is also a member of the Hellfire Club. By which I mean, Mike might not actually be in a cult, but Hawkins at large sure thinks he is.

Now, obviously, Mike isn't dead/hasn't been killed by anybody. But everybody is always talking about all of he death flags around Mike coming into s5, and I, at least, am of the opinion that he can't die permanently (for the same reason that Will and El can't perma-die-- all of them are way too self-sacrificial and willing to throw their lives away for everyone else, so killing them would literally just be them... doing what they always do, which is not ideal for a death scene, especially in a show where the death of major characters is used as infrequently as it is in Stranger Things). If he dies and then comes back to life, or at least seems to have died, this might fulfill the "undead" requirement.

Obviously, how the issue of Kas would come up in this storyline, would be much more questionable than in Henry's. If I'm on the right track here, though, I wouldn't really expect us to know at this point, because it would likely come up in s5 anyway. What I will say is that, if I were to speculate about s5... since Mike is the leader of the Party, and Kas was Vecna's lieutenant, if this is the direction they're going, then I would expect one of the Party members (probably not Will or El because I have some... thoughts about them in the context of the Vecna analogy) to play the role. However, I really can't see any of them intentionally killing/betraying Mike, so my best guess is that if this is happening, it's going to be more a thing of Mike self-sacrificing/endangering himself in order to protect one of the Party members, rather than them intentionally/personally striking the blow. That's SUPER speculative, though, and not founded in very much except... Mike's character as a whole. Also, in D&D's lore, all that was left of Vecna after Kas had killed him, besides the Hand and the Eye, was a pile of ashes-- which fits really seamlessly into Mike's narration of his D&D character dying a fiery, self-sacrificial death at the end of Will's campaign.

Eddie's Vecna is a spellcaster/dark wizard, which are terms that would fit anyone, Mike included, in the scenario where they created/significantly influenced the Upside Down/shadow monster.

In terms of Mike's appearance, obviously he does not appear shrivelled and desiccated (though we'll have to see what s5 brings on that front), but I will note that there are a LOT of theories about Mike losing an arm and possibly an eye as well. Additionally, Mike's left eye, in particular, is often shrouded in shadow. I've already written a different post about that, so I won't go too into detail, but you can look at it here.

^ A sample of some of the left eye shadows

If the theories about Mike creating the Upside Down or at least the shadow monster are accurate, then that fulfills the D&D Vecna's backstory of having built a dark empire before his undeath.

In the context of Mike, I also think it's interesting that one of the things D&D's Vecna is known for is his "dark secrets". Like... I mean, we all know Mike is full of secrets. And it's very likely that they're "dark"-- not necessarily in the way that D&D Vecna's secrets are dark, but more so in the way of, like, mental health issues can be very dark when you're living through them. I mean... Max had "dark secrets" this season, too (though, obviously, totally different in nature and context than Mike's), but the narrative difference (outside of all the cool character stuff they were doing with Max-- this is not a Max post so I won't get too into it, but I just want to make it super clear that Max has a LOT of interesting stuff going on in s4 in her own right) is that those came to light, while Mike's stayed hidden.

Also... okay let me just put this here:

(Link to the site I got that from is in the Vecna in D&D section)

"The godlike supremacy they crave". Does that... not sound like Henry? I mentioned Henry turning into a Demogorgon back in the Henry as Vecna section of this post, but... I think I'm just saying that it could legitimately be happening? I don't know. Maybe I'm just being overly enticed by the idea of Henry's hubris making him believe that he's the one in control of the Upside Down/the shadow monster/Mind Flayer when, in reality, the truth is that he's simply blinded to what's happening to him by his own arrogance and ambition.

Anyway... finally, I'll point out that D&D's Vecna is also known for his "formidable temper". And, like... I just... okay, so a lot of characters in Stranger Things have tempers and anger issues. But the thing with Mike's is that it's portrayed... kind of differently? Like, if you push Jonathan or Steve hard enough on the right pressure points, they'll snap and physically fight you (we've seen it), and El's basically the same except that she generally has the psychic force to skip the fight and simply toss you aside like a ragdoll. If you push Will or Nancy or Hopper hard enough on the right pressure points, they'll get sarcastic and frustrated and snippy (and depending on who you are, Hopper and maybe also Nancy might also punch you lbr-- here's hoping for Nancy punching someone out in s5). But Mike?

a) Mike's kind of constantly on the verge of getting mad (except, typically, when he's alone with Will and usually also El pre-s4). He's annoyed by everything, prickly towards basically everyone unless he knows them very well, and easily upset if he doesn't get his way/doesn't feel consulted about what's happening. None of which erases his positive qualities, and all of which are explainable, but it's undeniable that there's an angry element to his character.

b) When Mike does actually get properly mad, he shoots to kill. "What is WRONG with you?" "It's not MY fault you don't like girls!" "She didn't LOOK fine...", like. Every season, he says something so harsh it leaves the other person/people speechless. And that's NOT to say that Mike's a bad kid. He's a child who has suffered a lot of trauma, and who was already prone to fits of annoyance before all the bad stuff started happening. Of course he lashes out. AND it does seem like he's making an attempt to improve especially as of s4 (probably because the rain fight really scared him tbh). I'm not saying he's bad, I'm just saying that one of his flaws, which he does seem to be working on, is that he has a tendency to get angry and say things that he might mean in the moment, but which are more hurtful than he wants them to be.

c) I find the scene where Mike breaks down in Hopper's arms in s2 incredibly telling. Obviously, this was Mike under extreme circumstances. I'm not suggesting that level of rage and pain is Mike's typical baseline level. But what I am saying is... that breakdown did not develop overnight. That was something Mike was building towards since s1e1. And then he lets it out with fists and screams and sobs. And then he boxes it away and gets back to plotting how to stop the Mind Flayer and save Will like nothing happened. And nobody brings it up ever again (I mean... let's be honest... the only person who WOULD 100% have brought it up later was passed out in a drug-induced nap at the time, so it's very likely that Will doesn't know about that breakdown... just like he probably doesn't know about the quarry). And just like every other character, Mike keeps getting traumatized on top of all the pain that caused that original breakdown. And...

I don't know. I guess I'm just saying that it's undeniable that Mike has a temper, though he's not the only character who does. And that Mike's inevitable s5 breakdown will probably involve rage as well as tears. Does Mike have a "formidable and hideous temper"? I don't know. I think that sort of depends on who is judging. I am pretty sure that Mike thinks he does, though.

And... lastly... this is just a parallel that I thought was interesting, which probably doesn't mean anything, probably it's just a coincidence, but I'm already deep enough into this analysis that I've lost my mind so...

^ s1 Mike covers his left eye while indicating/faking a headache

^ s4 Eddie covers his left eye with an upside down hand to mimic being Vecna

The Eye and Hand of Vecna in This Context

Something that has been bothering me is this:

Mike, Will, and El are obviously paralleled to two trios from other franchises, with Will and El, respectively, as the "head"/primary character in the trio.

They're paralleled to Harry/Ron/Hermione (no, I don't like talking about HP parallels very much because //gestures at everything about JKR with my very trans hands, but I don't think that discomfort on my end negates the obvious parallels), with Will generally functioning as Harry (although I'm aware that Will and Mike get the Ron/Hermione treatment in the airport), with everything to do with his connection with Henry.

They're also paralleled to Luke/Leia/Han, with El generally functioning as Luke.

So, the thing that has been bothering me is: if Mike is just as much a protagonist as Will and El are, and not just a romantic interest for the two of them, why isn't there also a trio in which Mike gets to play the leading role? And, uh... so... I have a thought about that, but it requires me to dig a bit deeper into the lore behind the artifacts left after Kas (nominally) killed Vecna in D&D lore: the Hand and the Eye.

The Hand of Vecna:

The Eye of Vecna:

(link to the site where I took these screenshots from is included in the section about Vecna in D&D)

So... if (and I'm very aware that it's a big if) Mike is going to turn out to have been foreshadowed by Eddie's Vecna, then I believe that this is the trio he's at the head of. Vecna/Eye of Vecna/Hand of Vecna, with El as the Hand and Will as the Eye.

I mean, the Hand's thing is strength (El's telekinesis lends strength to her/anybody she is helping use it for-- ie. flipping the car in s3, where flipping it back over requires multiple people and Mike's lever system). It improves attacks during combat (again... El's telekinesis sort of makes her the gang's heavy hitter). It can apparently also freeze creatures (we see El do this at least twice in s1-- she freezes Troy in place after he tries to attack Mike, and freezes the Demogorgon in place when it's trying to attack the Party). And it can be used to cast a number of different spells including Teleport (El can't exactly teleport, but she can use the mind void to travel anywhere a given person is in her mind) and some necromantic spells.

Interestingly, although they're not spells the Hand can provide according to screenshot above, bringing back the dead, like El does to Max at the end of s4, can be done using a necromantic spell in D&D.

And the Eye... I mean. Truesight is right there. But in general, it's a lot about being able to see through just about everything (including time, which is pretty interesting), with fits pretty well with Will as the spy/Will as the sensor of all things Upside Down. The spells it can cast are pretty interesting as well, and do make me wonder if the fact that Will was (or possibly still ever so slightly is?) part of the hivemind might give him some ability to control what the hivemind does? I don't know, but it's a thought.

Also, the effect of using the Eye is really interesting, given the fact that Will was infected by the shadow monster/Mind Flayer right at the moment when he tried to order it to "go away" (failed Dominate Monster?), and then the whole possession got worse/his soul was almost consumed leaving him essentially a puppet under the control of the shadow monster/Mind Flayer after he attempted to spy back (possibly failed Clairvoyance?). Also, fun fact: Disintegrate causes a "thin green ray" to "spring from your finger" in order to turn a target to dust. I can't help but think about Will the Wise's green fireballs.

I don't know… I just think the parallels are worth thinking about.

To be 100% clear, I'm not saying that Will and El's powers/abilities come from Mike (just like in the HP parallel, Will paralleling Harry/the Chosen One doesn't take away from El or Mike's positions as co-protagonists with him, or in the SW parallel, El paralleling Luke doesn't mean that she's the only protagonist/Chosen One in ST). Nor am I suggesting that Mike in any way owns Will or El. I'm only pointing out that there are some striking similarities between their powers/experiences and the effects of Hand and Eye in D&D, so if the theories about Mike creating the Upside Down/shadow monster are correct, then... those similarities are interesting.

(But, hey, I mean, fun fact-- if this is actually the intended read, then all three are paralleling powerful wizards in popular culture, which is fun.)

Also also... something I've always found super weird is that Will's eyes go brown when he's possessed, never black. Which... is odd, because black is traditional for possessions, and it would look more unnatural, it would align more with the shadow monster's colours, and it would be a really clear signal to the audience that there's something wrong with the colour of his eyes because as it stands, unless you already know that Will has hazel eyes, nothing seems off (especially because the characters never mention the change either). I mean, the shadow monster is black/dark grey. Henry's eyes are blue and never go darker than that. But Mike's eyes are just about that same shade of brown that Will's were when they were at their darkest...

I mean, if nothing else, Mike as Vecna and Will and El as the Eye and Hand would explain why Mike keeps losing (being cut off from) both of them.

And, I mean... we all know Will tends to hang out on Mike's left, but so does El (it's just less obvious with El, because she also has a motif of facing Mike head on). Largely (though not always-- if there's a true pattern, I can't tell what it is), when they're not in this alignment is when they're disagreeing/not on the same page/not pretending to be on the same page with Mike. I mean... you know. Something something, Vecna's left hand and left eye?

No, Seriously, Will and El are So Often on Mike's Left

^ Just a sample of the relevant shots

The Good News

Now that I've gotten through all of this, I do want to say that, even if Eddie's Vecna is foreshadowing something about Mike's role in the supernatural plot of s5, I don't believe they're setting him up to be a true villain. Like... if Mike did actually create the Upside Down/the shadow monster/in some way impact them, I very much do not believe that he is aware of it as of s4, nor do I believe that he would ever intentionally hurt any of the people that the Upside Down has tormented all these years. Well, except himself [gunshot]

Obviously he would be absolutely ripped open if he learned any of what happened was in any way his fault. He'd be absolutely gutted. If you're a "Mike needs to have a sobbing, screaming breakdown in s5" kind of person, man would you get your wish and then some.

My point is, even if they're setting up a twist where Mike('s repressed emotions) have been an antagonistic force all along, I very much do not believe that Mike is being set up as an antagonist, in his own right.

This is where I'm going to bring it back to the fact that we don't actually know what Dustin or Erica were rolling to do. Most likely, in the game itself, they were rolling for various attacks. But we don't hear that. And we don't actually hear Eddie ever say that Vecna was killed, it's just implied from the context of the scene. Which to me means that the ending is not set in even analogous stone. If Vecna does foreshadow Mike's role in the supernatural plot, then all we know is that an Eleven alone can't defeat/solve whatever's going wrong with him, but a twenty (whatever is defined as a twenty) can.

By which I mean, I don't think Mike has to die in the end in order to fit with the analogy.

Also! I think it's really important that Eddie's D&D session is the only one that we see Mike participating in, where he doesn't do any active narrating. Obviously he narrates for the Demogorgon and Thessalhydra campaigns. However, he also takes over narrating for Will's campaign, when he decides to light a fire and sacrifice himself to destroy the Juju hoard.

In Eddie's campaign, though, he follows along. His PC 0's out (which could reference a future physical injury, or an inability on his part to keep fighting for some other reason), and they call a time out to discuss. During that conversation, Dustin specifically asks Mike for his opinion on what they should do (which I have some Thoughts about in the broader context of Dustin's characterization in s4, but those are so wildly outside the bounds of this post-- I'll make a different post later), and Mike really does act like a good leader. He asks Dustin and Erica for context on their HP, and assesses that if they keep fighting it will be difficult, but in the end he tells them that the call is up to them, because their characters are the only ones left on the battle field. That's all he says about the game. And I think the fact that all he says is that the fight will be "difficult" is really good news, because it means that the ending is more open.

Finally, it's possible that if Mike is actually the person being foreshadowed by the use of Vecna in Eddie's campaign, and if Will and El are intentionally paralleled to the Eye and the Hand respectively, then Mike's lost hand/eye signals may not necessarily literally mean that he's going to lose his body parts, but rather that he's going to lose or feel like he's lost both Will and El one more time before everything is over.

The Bad News

IF any of this is correct-- specifically, IF Mike did create the shadow monster or the Upside Down or even just influenced it in some way... even if Henry was somehow exercising power over it to make it more dangerous than necessary... I'm just not convinced that everybody would be able to forgive him.

I mean... Will, obviously would. That's kind of a foregone conclusion, especially since at least in the scenario I'm speculating about, none of what happened would be anything Mike knew he was in any way complicit in until after the fact.

I also think El would probably be able to understand pretty quickly given that she knows what it's like to do something without knowing you can do it, and to have to come to terms with the fact that others have suffered as a result. That being said, if we DO get Mike in the scenario I've been outlining, and then we DON'T get a parallel to the s1 "I'm the monster" "no you're not the monster-- you saved me" scene, except with Mike saying that he's the monster, and El assuring him that he's not because there's no such thing as being a monster or a superhero, but he was her first ever friend so she could never consider him a monster? I'll sue.

A lot of the others I'm way more up in the air about, because I really think it would come down to a lot of context in how it was portrayed, whether the others could manage to get into a somewhat normal groove with him ever again (though I highly doubt they'd have the Party end the show broken up, so I suspect they, at least, would find a way to come to terms with what happened).

But really... it's Nancy that concerns me? In literally any scenario where Mike might have had ANYTHING to do with the Upside Down in any capacity outside of what we've explicitly seen in the show. Whether he knew what he was doing or not. Whether Henry was the one orchestrating things in s1-s4/presumably at least early s5 or not. I just...

I can see a path where she could forgive him, right? Though I'm really worried that's a path where she would forgive him and take all that blame and put it onto herself because he was he little brother and she didn't notice.

But I just... I don't know.

I just know how horribly she's raked herself over the coals over Barb's death ever since s1, and I just worry about whether she would be able to accept that, in the scenario I've been outlining, Mike didn't actually mean to do anything/couldn't actually have stopped it because he didn't know it was happening. Because I suspect that in order for Nancy to get to that place, she'd have to confront the fact that SHE isn't at fault for what happened to Barb, either. That she did not do anything wrong (at least, not wrong enough that she deserves to be still agonizing over it four years later) by telling Barb to go home that night. That there was no way Nancy could have known that something bad was happening to Barb, and that the fact that she didn't stop what was happening BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING FOR HER TO STOP, doesn't mean she's in any way at fault.

And... I REALLY hope we're going to get to see Nancy confronting that head on in s5. But it just.... concerns me in the context of these theories about Mike's potential supernatural role.

#mike wheeler #byler #my analysis #I feel like there HAS to be a tag for all this Mike-and-the-Upside-Down stuff?#but I legitimately don't know what it is #long post #<- as always //sigh #I don't know what brevity is I guess #also #if Mike DOES have literally any sort of supernatural abilities #I fully believe that Karen knows/suspects somehow #100% because of that super coded “I never want you to feel like you have to hide anything from me” conversation #which YEAH does read like she's encouraging him that he can tell her if he's queer #but like #I've always thought she picked a SUPER weird time to have that conversation??#“oh your best friend who I suspect you might have feelings for is missing? Okay well just so you know it's okay if you're gay”#like #just a really weird time when Mike isn't even a little volunteering that info #but if she knew somehow that Mike had supernatural abilities + knew somehow that something supernaturally fishy had gone down with Will #I feel like yeah no that would be the exact RIGHT time to try and assure him he could tell her “anything” lol #which now I'm thinking about this the context of Troy's “killed by some other queer” comment #idk idk idk I'm just thinking thoughts at this point

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