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bewires · 2 years

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fandom and the criticism paradox: an essay

So there was recently some twitter drama about a thread where people were supposed to post "cancelable" opinions about fanfic. unsurprisingly, someone saw something in that thread that applied to their own fic and then deleted all their fics off AO3.

there was some backlash to this incident in two specific ways that I saw:

(a) criticizing the author for being so sensitive/looking at this thread in the first place

(b) rejecting criticism of fanfiction bc fanfiction is not forprofit

to be clear, I have no particular stake in the fic trope in question being criticized or the author who deleted, they are specific to a fandom I am not in. what this makes me think about more than anything is the uneasy role of fanfiction as an art form. (if you disagree that fanfic is art you can stop reading here, that is my central premise).

I've been involved in fandom in one way or another for ~15 years, and I can still recall that in the days of yore on fanfiction.net, people would add "concrit welcome" or "read and CC!" in the notes if they wanted to receive constructive criticism. Actually, when I went back to delete my fanfiction.net account several months ago, I discovered also that I as a 13-year-old was exactly the kind of asshole who GAVE constructive criticism, in a tone that would make me furiously angry if someone left that kind of comment for me on AO3.

I can also recall that as a 13-year-old, I received some dismissive commentary that made me discontinue a fic entirely. It was a terrible fic, it was marauders-era HP fanfic about Sirius Black falling for an OC who was best friends with Lily Evans structured around Beatles lyrics. I shudder to think of it and am thrilled it is lost to the sands of time and internet decay. But when someone left a comment making fun of how unoriginal this concept was, it hurt my feelings and made me move on to a different fandom. (This was literally at least a decade before the two cakes meme).

When I moved over to livejournal, it quickly became clear that this was a safer space to experiment, the worst that would happen there was that a fic would go ignored, not that people would leave condescending criticism. Maybe sometimes someone would message you to point something out, or fix a typo or something, but any sort of criticism was happening in private where I couldn't see it. Livejournal is where I really started challenging myself to write interesting concepts or experimental styles (all of which I also shudder to think of now).

Fast forward to AO3, and it is entirely impolite and not the done thing to leave any sort of criticism on a piece of fanfiction. What's more, AO3 is an archive. The author appears far more as an author rather than as a lowly blog runner among many; it's only when you follow them to tumblr or discord that you get to know the person behind the story, otherwise they appear to you only as an author.

There's still a much greater familiarity than there is on, say, goodreads. Published authors have access to their goodreads pages, they can see everything you say about their books there and some of them do check, but the comforting distance of a publisher and a for-profit book makes us more okay with that than with an ao3-review that lands directly in the author's inbox or the snide remark in the bookmark tags that the author will also see. (although I see y'all out there creating goodreads pages for my fanfiction and that....my dudes that's just weird why are you doing this?)

At the same time, though, the fanfiction author did not invent being sensitive about negative feedback. Authors being butthurt about bad reviews has been around for about as long as books. And I get why! Writing is personal. You put a lot of yourself into each word, and having it be rejected, or even mildly criticized, is uncomfortable and unpleasant. There's something to be said for the fact that it's a lot easier to leave negative feedback than positive. It's much easier to pinpoint what you don't like about something than to praise specific things you liked - I actually think ao3 comments are a great practice arena for giving praise and valuing what's done well, a thing I know I don't do enough irl.

So we can say that one arena which separates the fanfiction author from the published author is the directness with which criticism is received. Critical comments go straight from one user to another. In most cases when I've received them, they have been anonymous, probably because the user knows they're breaking fandom norms. Sure, criticism is hurtful for published authors as well, but they have two benefits: one, they are spoken ABOUT and not TO. And two, which leads me to the second point, at least they're getting paid.

The other big issue people raise is that fanfic authors aren't being paid; they are contributing their fanworks out of love, often in spare time as students or while working full-time. Fanfiction is not a commodity, you aren't buying a service and as such you have no right, as a reader, to complain.

This is not a point I can or want to argue; fanfiction is a labor of love and to see the work someone put in and decide to tear them down over not being great at dialogue or whatever is just a dick move.

But.

The thing that gets to me, the white-hot burning core of this argument to me, is that it can't be absolute. And this is where I run up against the central issue of debates about anything substantive on twitter or tumblr, and also why this post is so fricking long - these points are made briefly and succinctly and when you do that it sounds like you're making an absolute statement about whether fanfic should be criticized at all, ever, and I don't think that works.

See, I happen to think a thread asking for "cancellable fanfic takes" is an easy way to stir shit - it's bound to step on some toes and if you're posting in that thread, you're going to have to be okay with stepping on toes.

However, I also think that people should be allowed to have opinions on fanfic tropes in general without authors taking it personally immediately. Like, here, let me out myself: I don't like high school AUs. At all. Don't read 'em. Sometimes I filter them out on AO3 because I don't want to see them!

What a hot take. If some seminal author of high school AUs in any of my fandoms happens to see this, I sure hope they don't take this as a personal affront and delete their fic, because I'm talking about the trope in general and I have not even read their fics because like I said - I don't like this trope! And I happen to think I should be allowed to say that without being criticized for criticizing!

I even, and this is where I'm being controversial, think I should be allowed to go on at great length about why and in what ways I dislike this trope (I think it often destroys adult characters' agency and I also think most high school AUs are wildly OOC). This is not personal towards writers of this trope in my opinion. I do understand why someone might take it personally and/or disagree, and if they do, it's my responsibility to be clear that I'm not saying this to be hurtful but to express my own issues with the trope, but I still think I can say this on my personal blog in my corner of the internet.

So why is it important that I can lay out my issues with high school AUs? Well, because a lot of the time, the criticism of fandom tropes in general that get the kind of "authors are doing this for free how dare you express criticism" response is not innocuous, it's criticism of fandom tropes that further racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia etc. And I don't think it's a coincidence that this particular case, where a fandom trend for this specific fandom was being talked about in general and an author took it personally, is being used to restate and enforce "no criticism in fandom spaces".

Like...no, fanfic authors are not being paid. Yes, this is a labor of love and doesn't deserve to be treated like published work, lacking both the time and attention from an editor. But at the same time, if you put something out there into the world and let people read it, they can think whatever they want about it, and if they think you are hurting people with it, that should be something they can say. One last anecdote to exemplify this point: A few months ago, I clicked on a fic featuring what was, to me, very clearly a situation of dubious if not entirely lacking consent. The fic was not tagged as such at all. I found it pretty upsetting that the fic did not acknowledge the consent situation at all, and left a comment asking for a dubcon tag. In order to do so, I felt like I had to praise a fic that had upset me wildly so the author wouldn't be hurt by me asking for a tag, and afterwards, I was annoyed at myself for basically grovelling in order to get an appropriate tag I could filter for.

Fanfiction is populated by people who love art so much they want to make more of it, they want to think about it and meta and create. Of course fans think about the art created in their own spaces, and of course they have takes about it!

But I think that when we are discussing the role of criticism in fandom spaces, we must crucially differentiate between

Personal, individually-given criticism

Criticism of craft, i.e. solicited, friendly and clear suggestions to improve pacing, dialogue, whatever

Criticism as abuse, i.e. unsolicited and abusive critical commentary

Meta-criticism, i.e. commentary on tagging/fandom norms (which can easily also be abuse

General criticism

Criticism of craft, i.e. criticism of fandom trends like the way anal sex is often written in ways not at all like it's practiced irl

Criticism of norms, i.e. criticism of structural oppression being recreated in popular story beats

Criticism of tropes, i.e. "why I personally don't like high school AUs" (this can blend easily with criticism of norms)

Why is criticism of norms not part of individually-given criticism? Well, because fandom keeps showing over and over that when racism within a fandom is called out, it ends up with the people doing the calling out being harrassed and threatened and the people creating racist content portraying themselves as victims because "you don't criticize fanfiction".

And that's why I think we need to talk about fandom's uncomfortable relationship to criticism.

#fandom #fandom discourse #criticizing fanfic #fanfic #not a clue how to tag this #long post

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mcmoth · 3 years

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Dream SMP fandom etiquette

So. This post is probably too little, too late, considering the fandom and the issues I'm about to talk about have existed for so long now, and a lot of the people who need to hear this probably aren't on tumblr anyways, but I just wanted to dedicate a quick post to talk about fandom etiquette. Mostly pertaining to discourse, and interactions with people outside of our circle. These are just going to be my own personal thoughts, of course, but I felt it could be good to bring some of this to attention. So without further introduction:

Where to (not) talk about discourse:

Don't go into other streamer's vods to only focus about a different character. If you want to analyse, for example, c!Techno, do it in Techno's stream. Don't go into unrelated streams, like Tommy's, Tubbo's etc. to do it, even if they were a part of the event in question. This is, of course, with the exception if the character in question didn't stream their own pov. But otherwise, stay in your own space. This is to prevent cluttering a streamer's comments about unrelated discussion. To give further example: Tubbo's vod comments should primarily focus on Tubbo's character. Not Tommy's, Ranboo's, Techno's or whoever else's.

Don't start discourse in the comments of animatics. Seriously, stop that. Animatics aren't discussion boards. The comments are there to analyse and appreciate the video presented, not argue. It's especially rude if you pick a small detail, that wasn't even the focus of the animatic, or even a completely unrelated issue to rant out your frustrations about. To give examples: starting disc discourse in an animatic of Tommy talking to Wilbur, or rambling about how tragic Techno's character is in an animatic focused on clingy duo, etc.

This applies to fan songs as well.

Video essays are the exception to these rules. I think it's safe to say they're the place to bring your hot takes, if you really feel so inclined to argue in youtube comment sections (Though I'd personally advise to still keep the topic relevant).

Keep negativity out of fanfic comments. This isn't nearly as big of an issue as the last points, but I've seen it happen a couple times, so I'm deciding to mention it. Fanfics are written for fun. Even if you disagree with the characterisation or something else, unless the author is clear in accepting critique, keep criticism to yourself. And definitely don't rant about how you dislike a character unrelated to the fanfic. Sharing your thoughts on the fanfic itself is of course fine and welcomed, but when it turns from discussing the author's story to talking about how you dislike a character in canon, that's when it crosses a line. Example: comment talking about what you don't like about c!Tommy on a Bench Trio fanfiction.

When commenting on art, keep the feedback positive. Even if you dislike any presented character, keep that to yourself. Example: Don't say things like "I hate x character, but this art is good". You might think the author would feel honoured, but it's actually just hurtful.

How to deal with discourse:

This is gonna be a shorter section, because I think we all chose to do it in different ways, and that's valid. Also, it's just that I, myself, am still learning how to do this well, but I thought it could be good to try to lay it out anyways.

Try to scroll past takes you disagree with instead of arguing if you don't think you'd be able to keep your cool. Noone likes a random person yelling at them through a screen, and if you rant, you'll get an equally frustrated reply back, and noone will be happy. Either explain your point in a calm manner, or scroll past/ unfollow/block.

On the keeping cool thing, remember to just step away. Take a deep breath and calm yourself down before proceeding. To minimize the frustration you feel on a daily basis, filter tags, block people, avoid videos and youtube comment sections that you know will upset you, and leave certain internet spaces if you find yourself unable to escape negativity even with all those steps. Remember: in the end, it's all a game played by friends, a story, and your enjoyment of it lies in what you take from it. Abandon what makes you unhappy. Marie Kondo your fandom experience.

Also, here's your reminder, to whom this is relevant, to take care of yourself. Hydrate, eat, sleep, clean up, get fresh air, remember the things outside of all this. There's plenty to do outside of this fandom, and what you can do here can wait. There is no pressure, or obligation. Not for the content you create, not for the discussions you bring, not for responding to discourse, not for anything. Fandom is meant purely for fun, so take care <3

Interacting with people outside of the fandom:

This is something that I've seen a bit of talk about, and I thought I'd drop in my own thoughts on this as well. No matter the differences, we're all just trying to vibe, and I think these are important things to keep in mind to leave both sides better off:

Don't interact with hate posts. Just don't. You don't want to see them, they don't want to see you. Even if your response is lighthearted, their animosity is not. They will feel frustrated regardless, and the grudge will only grow. And if they're being agressive, calm discussion most likely won't happen even if you're being polite. Just leave it, please.

Correct misinformation calmly. I completely get how it can be frustrating to see blatant lies and all, but with our reputation, people will not listen if you're being antagonistic. Provide sources, explain, and leave it at that.

Don't be hateful, send death threats, or assume privilege or whatever else. That's stepping into the same shoes of the people you hate. Misunderstandings go both ways, and the fact of the matter is, I think most people who dislike DSMP, even the ones who are agressive about it, don't have their stance rooted in maliciousness. To expand on why the situation became what it is today, taken from a discussion on discord:

I think it's just a combination of Dream growing so insanely quickly + how internet spaces have changed over the years. When ccs like jackstepticeye or pewdiepie etc. grew popular, activism wasn't as prevalent and held to such importance. Now it's thankfully more talked about, but that also leads to Dream being more scrutinized in comparision. Add twitter trends and the general prevalence of the fandom, and you've got everyone feeling tired and frustrated and paranoid. People also tend not to fact check stuff, especially when it comes to celebrities and stuff they're not really interested in, so rumors spread fast.

And actually, I think there's absolutely valid reasons to be made uncomfortable by Dream SMP, either in it's creators, content or fandom, and there is, of course, stuff to criticise in general. The problem is the hate and misinformation and overexposure, but we are not going to solve any of that by being aggressive in return.

(This is, by the way, not talking about more serious cases. Like doxxing, or leaving gore images in hashtags, or similar instances. That's a whole different complicated issue that I don't feel qualified to tackle.)

And finally, don't overwhelm outsiders who merely mention the Dream SMP. Don't send asks asking them to watch it, don't write paragraphs explaining the lore, don't confuse them with inside jokes, just... Don't jump on people like that. Unless they're explicitly clear in wanting interaction and getting into the fandom, that kind of thing will just drive them away. This is in no way exclusive to the Dream SMP fandom, pretty much every fandom has people enthiastic to have more people involved, but since there are so unbelievably many of us, it's especially easy to go overboard with this stuff. Just... be polite, and don't pressure anyone. Be nice, please.

So.... ya! This would be it for this one, I think. Sorry that it's kinda long, thank you if you read it at all. Hope y'all have pleasant days ^^

#dream smp #mcyt #fandom #fandom etiquette #fandom critical #tommyinnit #technoblade #tubbo #dreamwastaken #let me know if i should remove tjose tags - i'm not sure whether it counts as crosstagging or not sorry #long post #my own post

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mariaiscrafting · 3 years

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You know, what think I like when you are critical of a content creator is that you know how to separate a fact from especulation, unlike a blog out there that took especulation as facts.

Example, that night when we were critical of Karl, or any instance you have discussed about him, a lot of anons were saying that he gave them clout chaser vibes to them, and despite your opinion, you expressed that those were only especulation and not the truth, and to keep that in mind. That's good critical thinking.

But this blog had some similar anons, saying that he only is friends with the Feral Boys gro clout- In fact, they said the Feral Boys were only in it to benefit from clout and money. And they took it as a truth. I know you instance on them is neutral, but come one, they are friends. All of them. Karl isn't friends with them for clout. Like today Karl was playing golf with salad gang plus Sapnap and George at first and then Quackity and Dream joined bc they had spared time and it all devolved into typical chaos (Poor Corpse and Tina and Brook, had to endure those children lol/lh /j). Like, the stream wasn't planned with the 5/5 yet they joined, missing Karl and just having fun.

Idk, I guess that blog's superiority (They were a SBI focused blog) just irritated me. It's as if they were putting both groups at each other as if those streamers aren't friends or close. They were singing prayers of one while shunning the other based from especulation. Criticissism is fine, in fact recommended to be critical of your interests, but taking rumors as facts to base your crit is yikes. It's as if I wanted to crit SBI and base it only of "Philza hanging only with people younger than him is kinda weird ngl.." or "Sbi doesn't care about Tommy cuz he joined late" like that dumb Tumblr post did or some fuckers in Twitter imply.

The main reason I take so much care to separate speculation from evidence-backed theories and confirmed truths is because I feel like that separation is what distinguishes us from mcyttwt the most. One of the main reasons for mcyttwt's toxicity, imo - for its relentless cancelling of everyone, for its bandwagon campaigns - is that people oftentimes criticize and defend based on their personal feelings rather than rationale or evidence.

For example, I complain a lot about Dream stans on here, but you know the reason I didn't stop watching Dream directly after the cheating scandal broke loose, even though I thought he cheated? Because of mcytblr Dream stans. Mcytblr Dream stans engaged with me in discussion, both publicly and in DMs, about the cheating scandal, and even those who eventually came to the conclusion that Dream didn't cheat accepted the facts and statistics they were given and kept a healthy skepticism throughout the process. On Twitter, Dream stans were defending him before he even made a video following up to the mods' initial accusations because they felt that Dream wasn't the kind of guy to lie or cheat. They were replying to screenshots of statistical analyses from subreddits and to articles from mathematicians and staticians with extremely reactionary responses because of that feeling, which they believed in so adamantly, they had accepted it as fact. The thing is, to believe that Dream didn't cheat in the face of all the statistical and rhetorical evidence to the contrary is, in itself, speculative. Usually we think of speculation as a baseless theory that something is a positive truth- that is to say, that something did happen. But speculation also applies to those theories of someone not having done something, when the opposite has been nearly proven to be true.

For this same reason, I chose not to ignore the anti-technotwt threads with screenshots of Techno's old tweets in them. For me to have simply ignored these screenshots and continued supposing that Techno never expressed bigoted beliefs and/or currently doesn't would have been speculative on my part, and to boot, blatantly wrong, given the evidence to the contrary.

People in this fandom, and in all RPF/RPF-adjacent fandoms need to understand that almost everything they believe about the CCs they watch is speculative, at least to some extent, because of the nature of the content they make. Even if someone, in your opinion, displays evidence of some aspect of their personality - whether that be some form of bigoted, sweet, rude, clout-chasing, or anything else - because of the extremely one-sided nature of sharing one's life through a screen, that theory of ours will almost alwyas only ever be speculation, not a solid conclusion that can be drawn. We will never know these people's true intentions behind something shared to us via the Internet.

That vagueness leads to virtually every viewer creating a different theory in our heads about the CCs we watch, and we can't treat those theories as facts, especially not when sharing them with the rest of a fandom. I'm not a very big blog, but I consider even over 50 followers to be way too many people to spread a theory too, without at least clarifying that what I'm posting is speculation. If I have evidence, I like to list it or, if I can, provide sources; but otherwise, I take care to qualify most things with phrases or disclaimers that will clue followers into the speculative nature of whatever it is I'm saying. This is because theories and "feelings" can blaze through a fandom like wildfire, especially somewhere like Twitter, where so many things are word-of-mouth or based on summary due to character limitation.

You know why mcyttwt was cancelling Andi? Only a handful of original Tweeters under the cancel Andi hashtags actually knew what clips or tweets to criticize her for, or tried to elaborate on that criticism. But because every other mcyttwt user was getting bombarded by their mutuals hate-posting about Andi on their TLs, the "negative feeling" towards Andi grew and grew, even if most people didn't even know what they were supposed to feel negative about, exactly. Our judgement works on a quick trigger on the Internet because of the amount of information we're receiving, and so, even a single bad word against someone you don't have too strong of an opinion on can fundamentally alter your perception of them, usually subconsciously. If the first thing you see about Andi, who you've only seen on a couple LOH's or a couple Punz streams before then, is a tweet along the lines of, "disappointed in Andi for her homophobia and joking about suicide," despite you having no context, you will most likely be pushed to the negative side of her. Thus begins the cycle of hatred, building up and up, leading to you searching for more and more criticism about Andi, whether speculative or not, until you solidly and genuinely believe she is a Horrible Person. It all starts with the vaguest fucking feeling, because that's all speculation has to go off of, and it snowballs into a fucking wildfire across an entire fandom. I'm not about to be another person to let feelings snowball and spread like that.

Now, I don't know what exact blog you're referring to, but as an adamant SBI enthusiast, let me flip the argument many SBI stans have for their speculation upon the genuity of Karl's friendship with the Feral Bois, onto SBI. What do we have to go off of for the genuity of SBI's friendship, anyways? Our perceived brother dynamic between Tommy and Wilbur could very well just be Tommy capitalizing on Wilbur's brand and continuing the charade until now because it's been profitable. Maybe Techno only continues to associate with SBI because he knows how much his fanbase likes headcanon'ing about SBI, so he puts up with streams with them so he can continue to feed his fanbase with dynamics he knows they're obsessed with. Maybe Phil would rather play MC with people his age, and actually dislikes that he's friends with a teenager, but sticks around because he profitted so much off of Dream SMP and SBI-related content. And what could any SBI stan have to argue with me on any of these theories? Just because SBI laughs around each other and seems fond of each other doesn't mean they're actually like that behind the cameras. They so seldomly stream or make videos together anymore, anyways, so maybe they've grown tired of keeping up the dynamic.

Everything I said could be interpreted as utter bullshit, and that's because it fucking is. I don't actually know what Techno wants to do with his life, or how Wilbur and Tommy actually feel about each other, or who Phil wants to fucking befriend. The same goes for Feral Boys. There's nothing wrong with stating your theories or speculation, but to treat them as fact or not at least qualify such posts with the fact that this is all based on your bias and opinion, and no substantive evidence, is irresponsible. Just because you feel like one or more of the Feral Boys is "clout-chasing" doesn't mean you have the right to tout that feeling as truth. I feel a lot of things about a lot of CCs, both negative and positive, but no matter how strong my feelings, unless they have substantive evidence backing them up, I have no right to treat them as facts with my followers.

#anyways this kinda went everywhere but oh well #discourse #fandom critical #karl jacobs #feral boys #mcyt #asks #uhhh yeah this isnt neg to any cc just to the way fandom will treat them

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420pogpills · 3 years

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part 2 of the asks! :) part 1 here

dream gets these moods sometimes, and idk if it's a result of his current stressors, or if it's just his personality, but when i think he sort of feels threatened or shoved to the side a bit, he goes on the offensive. he hates being told someone is better than him, he hates not contributing to success, and i know that sounds kind of negative but i think he just really likes people relying on him and he likes being part of the reason people do well, and that's why i think he loves when george relies on him so much :') and there's nothing wrong with that! but when george jokingly says 'i don't need you' to dream, it seems like his mood instantly falls. then he'd rather antagonise than continue to help.

i've noticed that pattern a lot idk maybe it's just in my head but that's the vibe i get sometimes. when people who rely on him a lot stop relying on him, it just sometimes seems like he doesn't like it. and that's okay, but there's better ways to deal with that i think, rather than go on the offensive and potentially make the mood a lil sour. idk i guess it's difficult to explain when i don't know his actual thought process!

yeah it was just a little uncalled for, i don't know why lately he's been name calling so much lmao something about it just seems so personal and mean. i don't think george cares and it's none of my business, but as a viewer it's not the most fun thing to watch, especially when the mood was so good and everyone was having so much fun. it was one of those moods where i feel like if someone did something annoying, it's better to just let it go and keep enjoying the fun atmosphere, but dream just wouldn't let it go, and it was pretty hypocritical behaviour cause it's the kind of behaviour he berates george for quite often. i love dream but sometimes he is a bit of a twat ❤️

the fandom is just very used to the dynamic of george relying on dream i think. so when george does things by himself and he does it well, people are quite surprised, but when dream and sapnap turned around and started acting like dream was the reason he was doing well - because people are so used to that being the case, they just went along with it? and yeah idk. i mean i've personally seen more people annoyed at dream than agreeing with him or sapnap haha, but that's mainly cause i only look at tumblr now, on twitter i just follow like 3 fans and the rest are cc's and artists, so i haven't seen what twitter was saying, but tumblr recognises george, that he's more than dream's friend and he is a skilled player, so i think that's why so many of us got our feathers ruffled a bit haha

no worries at all, trust me i understand your frustration :') it's good to get it all out haha, once i discuss my frustrations with everyone i swear i find it so easy to let it go afterwards!!! discussing is good for the soul ❤️

honestly yeah i kind of agree. lately, it seems like dream's aggravation or frustration - whether it's something to do with george or not - does kind of feel like george will be on the receiving end of it regardless. like i mentioned this before in a different ask i answered, i feel like dream has been swearing at george a little more than i've ever noticed in the past? usually he calls george an idiot or stupid but it's always so light hearted, but lately he's used 'asshole' 'dickhead', calling him inconsiderate, etc. it is very interesting? i don't know if maybe we're imagining it or if it is really a bit different but yeah. i don't know what george has done to him, if anything :') but i'm not the biggest fan of this lolololol so i hope dream can find his peace again soon LOL idk maybe we're way off or imagining it or whatever haha but idk

yeah george does get underestimated a lot haha, and to be fair i do think he can blame himself for some of it because i do feel like if dream is there, he will rely on him 9 times out of 10. but it doesn't change the fact that he's cracked and he should show it off more. but it's tru, people always remember negative things better than they do positives :(

yeah i think a lot of people get so comfortable, they forget that cc's are still people - people that you are not friends with - so you should respect them like how you would respect a stranger on the street. just because you see dream call george a dick, doesn't mean you should go ahead and call him a dick :') dream has been friends with george for like 6 years now, he knows him personally and deeply, and we are not on the same level. so that idea that 'i can say this because dream said it' etc, is bullshit, because we're on completely different tiers in george's life. you don't have to like him ofc, you can like dream and dislike george in the same breath, but that doesn't mean you need to express that dislike.

ofc, george definitely has a big share of the responsibility for how he is perceived online :') he relies on dream 9 times out of 10. he will try and farm aww's from the chat when someone is going against him haha. but i think when he is truly trying hard, like how he was genuinely trying to win at dodgebolt last night - it was very petty and unfair of dream to try and get in-between that, when george was for once showing the stream viewers that he is good and he is capable of winning! george was trying to have his moment and dream made it about himself and undermined his skill :') it's just a silly thing to me because dream praises him so much, especially at dodge bolt and usually seems so proud when george is trying, so it was strange behaviour to see him turn around and do what he did last night idk idk

gogy is like an onion, he's got many layers! his face is just the very top one :P

#ask #anon #cw negative #cw negativity #dream team discourse

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migleefulmoments · 4 years

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“she had to know she was making a sacrifice and all that comes with it. Not the same as a rape victim. gross comparison” I’m the one who initially made this analogy and it’s not what I meant AT ALL. I don’t mean the emotional pain is similar, some online bullying vs. sexual assault aren’t even on the same wavelength. I mean THEIR comments are similar. They blame her the same way people tell women they deserved unwanted attention because of what they were doing/wearing. Way to twist my words.

Like I can’t tell if they genuinely believe all of that or if they’re just that oblivious and/or dense. I was comparing them to victim blamers. That’s what they do.

**********************************

Your point was clear-Nonnie was either obtuse or purposefully trolling to stir things up. I will add that most of their followers are teens. The point might have been lost on them.

Let’s start by with your original ask and my response:

Anonymous Asked: “M put herself in the spotlight “dating” D. If she didn’t want that attention, she would have stayed in the background” this has the same energy as “you chose to wear that, you deserved to be catcalled”. Mia STAYS in the background for the most part. Posing on a red carpet gives us no insight into who she is. They literally seek her out on her friends socials. And they met well before his career took off so no, she probably didn’t expect it to turn into this

Me: Their attitude- that Mia deserves to be attacked and criticized because she fell in love with a man who then became famous and whom they have a crush on makes my skin crawl. It is like the “wear a short skirt and you deserve being raped”. It’s also how they justify their abysmal behavior. They went on to argue that Mia deserves criticism but Abby isn’t dating a famous man so she didn’t deserve the “awful attack”. They like to bring up the Fame is Other People (X) interview Mia gave in 2016 where she says she never imagined herself with someone famous. They still ridicule her for not leaving Darren the minute he started getting famous. It’s so fucked up.

Now their conversation today

Anonymous asked: They're comparing people saying M chose to forgo privacy when she "fell in love" with D to people getting accused of deserving rape for wearing short skirts. Uhhh...NOT THE SAME THING but ok. I personally don't condone hating on anyone (I never publicly disparage M for example, despite my private thoughts) but by tying her life to a public figure, whether for love or not, she had to know she was making a sacrifice and all that comes with it. Not the same as a rape victim. Gross comparison.

cassie1022 answered: Nonnie, I’m not even surprised they went there. They’re vile, just like their kween. I don’t hide my feelings about M and I’m not going to, she absolutely knew what she was getting when she signed on to be D’s beard. She WANTS the attention, and as she’s a narcissist, she doesn’t care if it’s positive or negative attention.

notes-from-nowhere answered: Hold on. Why are we talking about M as if the notoriety had fallen on her head all of a sudden? It’s not because of D if she is known by others besides her parents. It’s because she pushes herself in front of him every chance she gets. She take away from him every merit often by making things looks like they come from her brain (Hedwig first for example) and she jumps on the red carpets even before he does. She shares her whole life through social media. D’s accounts, her friends’s accounts, enablers’s accounts. Her fake accounts. She tags in her posts every celebrity that crosses her path. Her only job in life seems to be open (and never close) social media accounts.

What are these people even talking about? Now we reached the point of denying even what she does so she can fits better their theories?

This is hilarious. I swear.

leka-1998 answered: Poor girl, forced to do all this.

I don’t even want to waste time thinking about how ridiculous it is that this behavior isn’t surprising.

flowersintheattic254 answered: I’m appalled at the comparison. God her fans are hypocrites. She wants notoriety via any means fair or foul and then screams victim if it’s questioned.

It’s the same argument that she is above criticism because she’s woman and therefore isn’t accountable for her actions.

Let’s remember V day. Nobody told her to get high with B in the PR house and post those pics. You reap what you sow. People smell fakeness and she reaks of it.

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One thing I learned very quickly when answering anons is that due diligence pays off. Responding to an anon’s summary of what someone else said can backfire if they misrepresent what was said. If the anon reports something untoward was said- whether by design or by mistake- and I spent 2 paragraphs berating that statement that was never said then I am the fool. Taking 5 minutes to read the post myself has paid off many times and every time I have taken something I know nothing about at face value- it’s bitten me in the ass. Had any of the ccers bothered to actually read the post they would have realized that Nonnie misrepresented the point. They still would have written something angry and pretended to be so “shocked” by how “vile” we are but at least they would have had a shot at not being the fool.

--------------------- My comments in Italics; they are in regular font

Cassie:

Nonnie, I’m not even surprised they went there. They’re vile, just like their kween. Nobody has ever said anything on my blog that could be construed as Mia is our kween. I don’t really understand the value of bringing up things nobody said as part of one’s argument. It’s proof of how desperate they are to be right and how easily they bend the truth to fit their needs. They wouldn’t know how to be authentic and honest if their lives depended on it.

I don’t hide my feelings about M and I’m not going to, she absolutely knew what she was getting when she signed on to be D’s beard. She WANTS the attention, and as she’s a narcissist, she doesn’t care if it’s positive or negative attention. It’s hilarious that Nonnie claimed she doesn’t disparage Mia publically as part of their argument as to why they are better than us but Cassie being the charmer that she is, responds with “I don’t hide my feelings about M and I’m not going to”. I could argue that Cassie knew what she signed on for when she started her crisscolfer blog-she even shares her cc beliefs on her Twitter!

She WANTS the attention, and as she’s a narcissist, she doesn’t care if it’s positive or negative attention I find it so odd that Cassie is diagnosing Mia with mental illness yet just yesterday she was raging that Metaloma and I diagnose Abby. Hypocrite much? It is mind-boggling that she believes Mia is a narcissist but can’t see that Abby actually is. I bet the Abby-less Crisscolfer fandom will find Mia isn’t nearly as narcissistic and evil without Abby to write the storyline and talk about her nonstop.

Personally, I’ve decided I don’t care enough to look at their blogs anymore and when I get their mean as hell Anons, I’m blocking. They claim we’re obsessed with their blogs when they literally dissect every post we make. Someone’s obsessed. It’s not us. Not reading my blog was a critical mistake because she would have realized that Nonnie was misconstruing the comment. Did someone claim they are obsessed with our blogs- I certainly didn’t- or is this another one of those claims that never happened?

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Notes:

Hold on. Why are we talking about M as if the notoriety had fallen on her head all of a sudden? Nobody is talking as if notoriety had fallen on her head all of the sudden. Notes would have really benefited from reading the original post because neither Notes or I have a clue what post she is responding to.

It’s not because of D if she is known by others besides her parents. It’s because she pushes herself in front of him every chance she gets. She take away from him every merit often by making things looks like they come from her brain (Hedwig first for example) and she jumps on the red carpets even before he does. I love the trope that she jumps in front of him on every red carpet because it proves how willing they are to outright lie to get their message across. She literally stands with Darren in front of the photographers for a couple of seconds at the end of Darren’s allowed period. Darren poses for dozens of photos and we see 2 or 3 pics of Mia and Darren-that is hardly jumping on the carpet before he does. As for taking away every merit- omg give it up. This is one of the dumbest tropes the fandom hangs on to. Mia WAS Hedwig before Darren was -the Halloween picture is around somewhere. Mia didn’t make the statement her friend did. We know the ccers don’t understand friendships but when they get pissed about the Hedwig comment they should refer to this post (X) where they declared “Just like I 100% stand with @ajw720,” and “I support @ajw720, I don’t believe Mi@rren is real and you cannot silence us!!!!”. Friends say things about other friends to connect with that person and show support. They weren’t trying to diss Darren. They never intended rabid Darren fans to even SEE the post-it was intended for their friends and nobody else.

She shares her whole life through social media. THIS IS my FAVORITE comment of all. WTF? Where does Mia share her whole life through social media? Cuz I’d love to see it! The fact is, you are lying...you’re just outright lying. Mia shares nothing via social media. She stopped her Twitter when she quit playing music and she has a private IG account.

D’s accounts, her friends’s accounts, enablers’s accounts. Her fake accounts. She tags in her posts every celebrity that crosses her path. Her only job in life seems to be open (and never close) social media accounts. Darren’s accounts? If Mia had control of Darren’s accounts, Mia would be plastered all over it but in reality, neither Darren nor Mia is active on public social media and they certainly aren’t sharing their lives. Nobody uses their friends’ accounts to plaster themselves. God, this trope is so stupid. Enabler’s accounts? Who the hell are her enablers? Where are these enabler posts just full of Mia’s every move? Her “fake accounts” is the best one though. Here we have some random person trolling the cc fandom and they Eat. It. Up. FetusMiarren hasn’t posted since August 11. Who the hell closes social media accounts? The reality is that Abby spent all day every day talking about MIa. The only person promoting Mia full time was Abby. The reason Notes believes that all these accounts are Mia sharing her whole life is because Abby stalked those accounts and then talked about each post for days.

What are these people even talking about? Now we reached the point of denying even what she does so she can fits better their theories? I ask you the same question “What the hell are you talking about?” If you had actually taken the time to read the original post instead of working yourself up to a red-faced, foot-stomping rant, you would know what I was talking about and avoided this ridiculous, off-topic rant-fest.

This is hilarious. I swear. Back at ya!

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Flowers:

I really love Flower’s response: I’m appalled at the comparison. God her fans are hypocrites-I’m not sure how we are hypocrites because of a valid comparison.

She wants notoriety via any means fair or foul and then screams victim if it’s questioned. Mia didn’t make the comparison- I did. Mia doesn’t know me, she didn’t dictate I made the comparison by “any means foul or fair”

It’s the same argument that she is above criticism because she’s woman and therefore isn’t accountable for her actions. Wait...who in the hell made the argument that she isn’t responsible for her actions because she’s a woman? I’ve seen a lot of fake arguments like this in the last 3 days. Again, I don’t really understand the value of bringing up things nobody ever said as part of one’s argument. It certainly doesn’t lend credibility.

Let’s remember V day. Nobody told her to get high with B in the PR house and post those pics. You reap what you sow. People smell fakeness and she reaks of it. Aaaaannnndddd she wraps up her comment with one of the fandom’s favorite gaslight moments- Valentine’s day with Ben.

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