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waitingforwinterwinds · 1 year

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A Clash of Kings - 60 SANSA VI (pages 763-769)

Sansa and Cersei dine with the highborn women and wait for news of the battle.

The torches shimmered brightly against the hammered metal of the wall sconces, filling the Queen's Ballroom with silvery light. Yet there was still darkness in that hall.

Oh that's some good metaphor. The room is filled with an illusion of safety and security, but they aren't safe, and the room isn't actually that secure and that possibility is hanging over them as much as the death of the men on the walls.

"I would sooner face any number of swords than sit helplessly like this, pretending to enjoy the company of this flock of frightened hens." "You asked them here, Your Grace." "Certain things are expected of a queen. They will be expected of you should you ever wed Joffrey. Best learn." ... "- So it behooves me to give their women my protection.If my wretched imp of a brother should somehow prevail, they will return to their husbands and fathers full of tales about how brave I was, how my courage inspired them and lifted their spirits, how I never doubted our victory even for a moment." ... Sansa was horrified. "These are women, unarmed , and gently born." "Their birth protects them," Cersei admitted, "though not as much as you'd think. -" ... "Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I'd have a better chance of seducing his horse." She noticed the look on Sansa's face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough, Both kinds of swords."

Sorry, I've been taken out of The Horrors but the realisation that Sansa is Cersei's only friend. Like it's very easy to accept at face value that this is just Cersei flexing her limited power to feel in control by lashing out at Sansa, but damn if this doesn't read like Cersei genuinely thinks of Sansa as her protege, the closest thing she has to a confidant.

Ii mean yes, Cersei has other people she can talk to, but none who she can be honest with without the fear that they'll be able to use that against her. In a weird and twisted way, for Cersei at this moment: Sansa is her only friend.

This is very emotionally conflicting for me because on one hand ^ that ^ and on the other: The Horrors and the Lurking Doom Waiting the Eventuality of Failure.

"Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this, and you'll have popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy." "I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If i am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

Oh! It's the line!

"Would that I could take a sword to their necks myself." Her voice was starting to slur. "When we were little, Jaime and i were so much alike that even our lord father could not tell us apart. Sometimes as a lark we would dress in each other's clothes and spend a whole day each as the other. Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me. -"

Well hello Arya|Cersei connections.

No but, I've mentioned before, Cersei represents the "sold child bride" narrative Dany and Sansa both have going on, or at least a potential outcome for their narrative, but Cersei also has "Arya's path/Lady warrior: Denied" going on in the back story.

...I've just realised this has basically become a Cersei chapter review, whoops. XD

"- I know all about your little treason in the godswood." "The godswood?" Don't look at Ser Dontos, don't, don't, Sansa told herself. She doesn't know, no one knows, Dontos promised me, my Florian would never fail me. "I've done no treasons. I only visit the godswood to pray." "For Stannis. Or your brother, it's all the same. Why else seek out your father's gods? You're praying for our defeat. What would you call that, if not treason?"

Well handled! Never confess to a crime, especially if it hasn't been directly stated which crime, and there is no evidence, you will only end up condemning yourself. Sansa did really well not to look at her partner in crime, cause that kind of thing is a reflexive action, very hard to avoid. People will often look to accomplices or hiding spots or move to hide those things without thinking, only to end up exposing them because people notice.

I've actually exploited this habit myself to trick my dad once, he was looking for the candy stash years ago, so I "subtly" moved in front of the broom closet, and he ended up spending several extra minutes looking in there for the stash that had never been there in the first place because he'd become convinced I'd been trying to hide it. >:3c

"He's here for us, he says," the queen said. "Stannis may take the city and he may take the throne, but I will not suffer him to judge me. I do not mean for him to have us alive." "Us?" "You heard me. So perhaps you had best pray again, Sansa, and for a different outcome. The Starks will have no joy from the fall of House Lannister, I promise you." She reached out and touched Sansa's hair, brushing it lightly away from her neck.

"Cersei brushes Sansa's hair away from her neck." Yeah, no, we get it Cersei, matching haircuts with a little too much off the top.

Cersei: I'm not letting them take us alive! Sansa: wait what? Cersei: we are gonna Thelma & Louise right of this edge! Sansa: Can I unsubscribe to this plan? Cersei: Beheadings

I was very distracted for most of this chapter by the "Cersei's only friend" realisation, but it's very much Sansa doing an amazing job of keeping it together under increasing pressure while Cersei slowly lowkey loses her shit in the face of their potentially unfortunate fate.

#a clash of kings #a song of ice and fire #sansa stark #a chapter a day reading #acok #asoiaf

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hylialeia · 2 years

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You've said before that you don't think Sansa's endgame is as a queen, but what about the line, "If I'm ever a queen, I'll make them love me"? Can this be anything other than foreshadowing for Queen Sansa (in the North or otherwise)?

I think people tend to focus too much on the "If I am ever a queen" part of the sentence and less on what seems to be the more significant purpose of that line: "I'll make them love me."

See, the context surrounding this thought is that Sansa is currently stuck with Cersei during the Battle of the Blackwater, getting an up-close-and-personal look at the way she deals with a crisis.

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. (Sansa VI, ACOK)

The focus of this moment is in establishing the difference between Cersei and Sansa, and on a larger scale, giving us a glimpse into an overarching theme throughout the ASOIAF. Cersei opts for violence and fear to get her point across as a ruler, consistent with the ideology that Tywin's pushed on all his children. In turn, she then attempts to push this ideology onto Sansa.

And internally, Sansa rejects the mentality entirely. That's what we're meant to notice; that Cersei's mindset (and Tywin's) are in direct opposition to everything Sansa and the rest of the Starks understand. Come AFFC/ADWD, we see this proven more definitively, as Tywin's legacy of fear collapses in on itself after his death, useless, while Ned's people continue to fight for him and his family. The narrative also explores and reinforces this in Daenerys's chapters, as her enemies (who certainly fear her) are still a threat, but her triumphs are consistently a result of her earning the loyalty of her allies by making them love her (you could say this is a glimpse into Dany's ASOS arc, even).

I see this line as having more to do with character and theme than foreshadowing; the important thing that readers get from this is that Sansa, who has been repeatedly abused, threatened, and traumatized by this point, knows that a ruler who's loved is in better shape than a ruler who relies solely on fear. While I have no doubt she'll employ this strategy in the coming books, it's the strategy itself I see being emphasized, not the area in which she exercises it.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #valyrianscrolls #sansa stark #asoiaf speculation #cersei lannister #ask #anonymous

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reginarubie · 1 year

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Hey have a couple for the ship thoughts questions:

Sansa and margs

Sansa and Dan

Jon and Dan

Dan and missandie

Jon's dad and mom ( for some reason I'm blanking on their names, all I can remember is R+l=j)

Ned and cat

Ned and asha dayne ( the rumoured lady that Ned loves ad beded but settled for cat)

Jamie and cers

Jemie and Brienne

Tyrion and tysha?? The one that truly loved him but he believed his family and treated her like... left her

Merlin and Arthur

Arthur and Morgan

Arthur and Gwen

Gwen and Merlin

gwen and that knight

steve Harrington and Nancy wheeler

Nancy wheeler and Jonathan

El and Mike

El and will

Will and Mike

nancy and Robin

Crissy and Eddie

Robin and Steve

Joyce and jim

Hi anon!,

For the series send me ships and I'll give my brutally honest opinion:

part I

part II

Let's go ahead and since in your ask you've divided it by fandoms let's do the same in my reply! A little premise, this doesn't meant to offend in any way the shippers of any of the ships I will be brutally honest about.

Ship what you wanna ship and enjoy what you wanna enjoy. This is just my opinion on why I like or not these ships.

ASOIAF

SANSA AND MARGAERY

To be brutally honest I don't hate it outside of canon.

In canon even though it can be considered one of the purest relationships Sansa lives (and it's because it's depicted by her POV) I really hope it never happens in any circumstances.

Albeit growing fond of Sansa we can't forget that Margaery is a manipulator who is doing the dirty job by gaining Sansa's friendship and loyalty to further forward her family's ambition and tho it's an ugly game the one they are playing, and as she is herself says in show!verse, because I can't recall that happening in book!verse at all, “women in our position should make the best of their circumstances” it makes the way Sansa honestly feels about her and their friendship sound even more like a fraud.

Sansa considers Margaery her truest friend in Kings Landing after Jeyne is taken away from her, and thinks that her presence and unfailing kindness changed everything for her. Because Margaery made her feel appreciated and loved and wanted, completely opposite as how Sansa has been treated as a pariah.

And all the while Margaery has been instead manipulating her to get through her, the claim to Winterfell and the North for her family at which point with a queen on the throne and a Warden of the North in the family, their riches and being the granary of the 7K, the Tyrells would have become virtually unstoppable.

I don't doubt Margaery grew fond of Sansa (what's not to grow fond of, of a girl who puts in jeopardy her life to tell you the truth, a truth you already know, about the king you're supposed to marry only so that you are spared the abuse she suffered?) as did Garlan who took the time to comfort her at her marriage feast.

Still, I feel like Margaery was succeeding in what Littlefinger has been trying to do all along. Using the right key she was managing to gain Sansa's loyalty and a Stark loyalty is a powerful thing (especially with the might of the North at their back).

It makes every moment shown between them in the show or in the book sound even worse and sour in my mouth.

Tbh Sansa is going to realize exactly how easily the Tyrells framed her for Joff's murder, uncaring if that threw her even further in the mouth of the lions (for however knowing of it Marg was). She'll probably always think fondly of Margaery for the kindness she has shown her, because that is who Sansa is, but I doubt she's ever going to trust her implicitly like she did in KL ever again in canon.

Sansa is afraid she's never going to be loved in any capacity beyond what her claim means to the people around her, it's why, I believe she's going to appreciate Jon all the more in canon because boy is out there defending her claim only because it's hers , no matter which last name she sports, going against his own ambition (which he himself describes as hunger) to instead defend her.

So... on a scale 5/10 in canon because of all manipulation going on. Outside of canon I am all for supporting relationships and as far as I am aware that is the nature of their ship outside of canon so: good for them!

By Dan I'm going to assume you mean Daenerys. So let's go ahead.

SANSA AND DAENERYS

Okay, time to be brutally honest here.

Had Daenerys be a male, Sansa would've been meant for her. It's why the whole Jon/Sansa and Young Griff/Sansa make historic sense.

Sansa is based off several historical figures, but mostly she's based off Elizabeth of York and Elizabeth Tudor.

The heir to the dynasty which has been overthrown returning with the might of three dragons, and the girl (the eldest surviving child) who is the heir apparent to another great family/dynasty with two brothers presumed dead, the daughter by a lord beloved by the kingdom and beloved she herself. Soft and feminine, but with a will of steel. With a dubious relationship with her uncle (LF is her uncle by marriage).

It makes historic sense.

But in canon GRRM has gone with a different twist of this story and has created two Elizabeth's. Sansa and Arianne. I am a firm believer that Young Griff might really be Elia's son, and I think a marriage alliance with the Martells through Arianne would make sense, tho I think in the end Arianne is going to end up with Daemon Sand (a bastard with a valyrian name, would you look at that?). Kind of like Jon, who I refuse to believe might be considered trueborn, because in the show they might have given him several part of Young Griff's plot in the books and Sansa.

Also I believe that both the North and Dorne are going to go free (the swords of the northerners and the dornish are the only ones that are not in the Iron throne, which is symbolic and might mean they will break off the 7K and be the queen/princess guiding their people and beloved by them), beyond their romances.

To top of that, in canon, Martin has taken every care in the world to make Sansa and Daenerys as similar as he can, whilst making them completely different and setting them up to become moral and political rivals. He made Daenerys to be Cleopatra and Sansa to be her Octavian.

I actually wrote an entire post based mostly on show canon, but it also applies to book canon (even more actually) in which I give clues as to why they've been set up from the beginning to become political and moral rivals (might actually upgrade that one with visual clues and textual clues in the book at one point). You can find it here.

I think that the greatest part of Daenerys tragedy is that hers is the story of how an abused and how the trauma she endured has turned her to what she is slowly becoming. Had she had a better example to learn of, someone to look up to that might teach her the right ways she might have turned completely different. Had she known the real love of her family, she might have turned out differently. Had she had been able to get the help she needed to overcome her trauma and the coping mechanisms she had to use to survive, she might have turned out completely differently. But as it is, it didn't happen and that's the root of her tragedy.

And I think that that is also what differentiates her from Sansa. She's not a bad girl to start off, just like Sansa isn't...both suffer terrible abuse and survive but they have had different examples in their life and when Sansa knows plenty well the difference between love and fear, in Daenerys' journey they often overlap, which makes them fundamentally different in their core and ends up pitting them against one another.

So in canon -10/10; outside of canon, it can be very fun to write and read.

[I myself have a couple of fics about them, tho I've not dedicated near enough time to them as I should've. One is a twisted version of Robin Hood with Daenerys as Robin Hood and Sansa as lady Marian, and another is a modern AU.]

JON AND DAENERYS

In canon (both show!verse and book!verse) I believe that if it happens it's going to be about Jon pulling a 007 on us all, like he already did with Ygritte and the wildlings. It makes textual sense because again, Martin has taken all the care in the world to ensure that Jon and Daenerys are at the opposite side of the spectrum when it comes to rule.

Also, the answer to Jon's prayers and dreams is Sansa, not Daenerys. So a bit like the Jon/Arya ship it would take away everything he wants from him to ship him with Daenerys and at the same time Jon is not Daenerys type at all.

As I've already said and actually spoke about in another meta, in Daenerys' life love/power/fear overlap and her type is the rogue, dangerous men capable of doing anything, even killing without any remorse (Drogo and Daario).

BookJon is several time more interesting than showJon, he's petty and clever and politically astute (I mean, boy managed to get the Iron bank to give the Watch a loan whilst drunk and seventeen; and he swapped two children, possibly putting them both in peril in a desperate attempt to save them from an horrific death) also I think, after all he did to save Mance's son was to make sure neither baby could be sacrificed at Melisandre's call; when he gets whiff of Stannis sacrificing Shireen at Melisandre's counsel (or doing so because spurned by all of Melisandre talks about kingsblood) he is going to trust Daenerys even less, especially if what has been shown in the show (her meeting Kinvara and having the red priestess starting to claim she is the princess who was promised and Melisandre being in Dragonstone when Jon gets there or wherever they will have that encounter) happens in the books as well. Which I believe it might, since dragons are fire made flesh and the red priests and priestess think that fires washes all sins and terrors away.

So, beyond Jon loosing everything he ever wished for, it would go against Jon's own character ever falling in love with her, but it would be completely in character for him to go ninja undercover on her and do whatever it takes to get the dragons to defend Winterfell, the North and his family. What more, Jon is by now, bleeding out dead in the snows of Castle Black and as per my theory about resurrected characters in asoiaf (on which I am working on to post, I promise, to anyone still waiting for it) Jon died a Stark defender, that is the core of his identity and that is what he'll be in his most pure form when he returns to life, especially after being in Ghost for so long.

Also, the way they depicted in the showverse might actually be pretty telling of what may happen in book canon and that's terrible.

Also, not only would Jon loose everything he ever wanted, but the way I've seen this ship depicted (not that I've given it way too much attention beyond what I've written for them in historical AU) it always kind of makes Jon blend in the background and Daenerys get everything she wants sometimes even stepping on what Jon cares for, which is what they gave us in show canon. To Jon the most important part of his identity are the Starks. He is the youngest child biologically speaking, but he is one of the big brothers of House Stark, and that is his core. He died because he wanted to break millennia of neutrality of the Watch to save his sister. And often this ship ends up suppressing this side of Jon.

So -5/10 both in show canon and book canon.

DAENERYS AND MISSANDEI

I'll go ahead and assume you meant only show verse, because we've got more than enough of Daenerys with Irri in the books to be sick with it, and with the way Daenerys stops it not because Irri doesn't enjoy it but because her not enjoying it was blatant enough that her kisses tasted of duty; she didn't stop because she felt like it was wrong to use another human being that way, but merely because she herself did not enjoy being kissed as if it was a duty.

Show verse Daenerys and Missandei had that gal-to-gal friendship depicted with Daenerys even braiding Missandei's hair, which I don't think ever happened in the books, tho I may be wrong. And Missandei is the only one Daenerys goes back for to KL, even tho she lost a number of other allies (The Sand Snakes and Yara Greyjoy), so I can see why some people may find it appealing to their tastes for the way the show depicted it, plus they're both hot and determined young women.

Why I think it shouldn't be applied in the books? It'd make it essentially grooming on D part.

In the books to begin with Missandei is a child, younger than Daenerys whom Daenerys says she wants to protect, whom she takes into her service after buying her from the masters in Astapor and whilst (besides the slaves at the end of Dany X in AGOT) Missandei is the only other former slave Daenerys frees but she does so with the intention of gaining her loyalty long enough to gather information from her about the Unsullied and how to move once she had bought them. Which subsenquentially spurns her to make them ever loyal only to her, slaves in all, save in name, because she never truly frees them, what she does it overlap the concept of freedom with that of dracarys and being the dragon's, all with the scourge still in hand.

So, I can see some of the appeal in show verse and it's pretty wholesome as far as Daenerys' relationships go in being depicted in the show 6/10

RHAEGAR AND LYANNA

Talk about another man grooming a child into a relationship. Okay, I'll hold off the gun because we aren't given too much context here, but what we've got is that Rhaegar was a twenty-four years old man with wife and children, obsessed with a prophecy who essentially eloped with a girl of barely fourteen years of age.

Now whilst such an age difference wouldn't have been the greatest possible in that historical context what makes it worse is that Lyanna was a highly dedicated to her family and romantic young lady and that Rhaegar was already married and with two kids.

What happened was that either he abducted her (like Robert claimed) or persuaded her to elope with him (like the show would suggest). Possibly he married her in some kind of secret marriage (which would defeat the point of not causing a fucking war and would bastardize his children, which it's hinted that it's not what he wanted, since he believed Aegon, his son by Elia, to be the Prince who was promised) or not, but then he sired a child from her, didn't account for his crime and let his father execute his wife/lover's father and brother thus provoking a war and alienating his wife/lover from her family. He then took her and secluded her in a fucking tower in Dorne (the homeland of his left behind wife just to be even more of a jerk) not even once trying to amend the problems he had caused.

What we know of Lyanna as per reverse, is that she was fiercely loyal to her House and loved her father and brothers (the only line we know by her was “That is my father's bannerman you are kicking!” when she defended Howland Reed at Harrenhal and she then entered the tourney secretly to avenge him) and we have to believe that that same girl would just accept her husband/lover secluded her in Dorne and fought against her family and accept her father and brother had been brutally killed?

Not bloody likely.

What I think more likely is that Rhaegar might have taken a fancy to Lyanna because of her youth and her determination, for she might have reminded him of Visenya's temperament and since he wanted to recreate the whole Aegon and his sisters, with Elia unable possibly to carry more children he decided Lyanna would do for a mother, endangering a girl of fourteen whom may have been on her first cycles.

He might have then seduced her, which most handsome man of the 7K, a prince and basically fancying her for what other suitors may find disgraceful? Tho, we'd have to assume Lyanna didn't care that he had other children, tho she cared that Robert had sired a bastard girl before marriage, which again doesn't make any sense. But let's say Lyanna was young and easily seduced by such a man.

He very clearly then actually abduct her and seclude her in a tower whilst pregnant, alone and away from her family, warring in her and her father's name.

It appears to me that the only good thing coming from that particular ship was Jon. And believe me, Jon is not going to take well his parentage, even if he ended up being trueborn, because he prides himself of being Eddard Stark's son tho lowborn, I don't think the same might be said for Rhaegar.

-1000/10 we respect no jerk in this household and Rhaegar left his wife and children behind unprotected (his daughter died screaming for her dad, under whose bed she had hid... the same dad who left her behind to groom a girl barely older than her), and secluded a fourteen year old girl whom he had gotten pregnant, alone in a tower in Dorne to fight a war he lost, all for the sake of a damn prophecy. The jerkometer hits the stars with him. He can choke for the way he treated both Elia and Lyanna and his children.

Good thing he sons have taken after their mothers and the men who raised them more than him.

NED AND CAT

10000/10 would recommend. And this is my shipper heart speaking.

Tbh though they are one of the most wholesome and truest, healthiest relationship in all of asoiaf, even with the matter of Jon's parentage to settle between them, they loved each other. They learned to love each other and build their family, a family they died to protect. Trusted and respected each other.

I mean Neddie boy turned from lethal, dangerous direwolf to tail-wagging puppy the moment he saw his wife in KL, and noticed she had been attacked by the way she held her hands, that's the degree of attentiveness we want in a man, okay?

Cat last thought was the fact that Ned loved her hair and that she didn't want it ruined even in death. Ned was her rock, to the point that even dead he was her support system.

Ned defended her by justifying her actions in taking Tyrion in custody as if commanded by him and Ned-I-know-better-than-that-oaf-of-my-best-friend-the-king, idealistic Ned Stark listened to his wife when she told him to trust LF. Dumb move, but still it gives you the degree at which they trusted and relied on each other.

With their fragilities and flaws they are one of my most beloved ships in asoiaf.

NED AND ASHARA DAYNE

We know next to nothing to this, saved that people gossiped about it, and about the fact that Ashara might have been Jon's mother. May it be that it happened, may it be that it didn't.

I think that even if it did it was heartbreaking, sad and bittersweet.

I am sure that if Martin were to give us more info, or write about it it'd be pretty real and cutting in its depiction/mirroring of the time and context of asoiaf.

So, on trust I give it 7.5/10.

JAIME AND CERSEI

For how it's written like this fated, hateful, passionate and destroying relationship I have to tap my hat to GRRM and give it a 8/10 on the manner of how much I like the way it was written...meh. I think it's pretty interesting and that it is the root of much of the problems Jaime and Cersei actually face.

In a scale of how much I enjoy it, tho, I'd give it a 4/10, BUT with the theme of rape not withstanding which would crush it down at -1000/10.

Sorry I am more for healthy, supporting relationships, as much as possible in every fiction and context. But if it's someone else's cup of tea, good for them.

JAIME AND BRIENNE

Reverse Beauty and the Beast story, in which the one who looks like a beauty is a beast and the one who looks beastly is a beauty. Pretty interesting to read, also because I think its root is that Jaime sees bits of the himself he sacrificed for his father and the people of KL in Brienne's vision of the world.

Still...read again the whole bath scene and consider it closely (I did a step-by-step with Tyrion and Sansa wedding night here) is it really worth being shipped?

In some contexts it doesn't bother me much...in canon I think it's going to be heartbreaking for Brienne.

3/10 I'm giving it a 3 merely because despite sexualizing her internally during the bath scene, Jaime doesn't actually act on that, and returns to save her because he has dreamt of her and because the sodding idiot is so foolish he has followed her in the Riverlands like she was his guide-light. And in other context could be pleasing to read about.

TYRION AND TYSHA

I have actually written a series of several metas about it, you can find the first installment here, the others will be linked at the end. Anyway, I honestly hope Tyrion never finds her.

Since departing KL his whole mantra has been searching for Tysha and at every stop they make, even in a brothel where he rapes a young girl who looks like Sansa, he asks after her and asks himself “where do whores go?” which is what Tywin told him.

I hope he never finds her, because Tysha was no whore, no matter what they did to her. They were the whores in the equation, so I dearly hope he never finds her, because Tysha was not a whore to begin with. Tho, I'd really enjoy her freezing him out once he returns to her with that arrogant brazenness he has, which will lead him to realize he is exactly like the father he hated so much.

100/10 Tysha living off her life peacefully and freezing Tyrion out if he ever finds her.

-1000/10 their ship. I hope Tyrion ends up realizing he never found Tysha because he searched the wrong places all along.

And that was it for asoiaf. Let's step in the next one, Merlin!

MERLIN

So, I am assuming we are speaking of Merlin the tv series and not the legend, because then it'd get very messy, albeit interesting.

MERLIN AND ARTHUR

Just kiss already.

1000/10 whatever way we wanna see it, romantically as a friendship or simply two people caring for each other, the chemistry was off charts for starters (like c'mon “do you walk on your knees?” “No” “Let me help you” and all the “I could take you apart with one blow” “I could take you apart with less than that”...I mean and all in the first minutes of the pilot?) and it was just that pure.

Arthur thinking Merlin was the bravest man he knew. Braver than his father (who he idolized for a long time) braver than himself and braver than all the knights he was surrounded by. Arthur thanking Merlin, noticing Merlin's moods and believing in him. Accepting him also for his magic in the end and Merlin being satisfied with only being his servant for his whole life, Merlin never telling him the truth not because he thought Arthur may kill him, but because he didn't want to put Arthur in the position he had to chose between their friendship and the kingdom he was governing and the beliefs he had...

... it's just so wholesome and heartbreaking. There's a video on youtube with the parallels of the entire series and there is one with Merlin getting his hair messed by Arthur and then him passing by his resting site in the modern day bowing his head like he did that one time... I'm not okay, alright?

[Forgive me as I go cry in a corner for the next thousand years]

ARTHUR AND MORGANA

That one was really well delivered.

If they ended up with a last desperate, passionate kiss I would've found it believable that was how good they have depicted that love/hate relationship and whilst there was some chemistry and hints at it in the earlier seasons, I think one thing the show runners got right was their siblings energy.

10/10 if they went that way it would've be believable and c'mon everyone loves star crossed lovers who became each other enemy because of differing views and ideals and ended up killing each other. Twisted love story, here I come.

ARTHUR AND GWEN

My two favs in the same ship, am I gonna ship it? Honestly? Hell yeah!

1000/10 would recommend. Funny, dorky and passionate and romantic all the same time. Also pure enough that to their knowledge Gwen did cheat on Arthur (tho she never could explain why and no one explained to them her head had been tampered with, despite her snapping out of it almost as soon as it happened) and he forgave her, took her back and she forgave herself and they were true to each other. Honestly, heartbroken on their end.

Albeit how believable it was the way they depicted and delivered I am forever simping over Arthur fucking Pendragon naming her his heir (thus making the dynasty a dynasty by which standards both male and females could inherit) because he had faith in the world she had to build. And sad over my fav Guinevere finally have the power to make the changes she always advocated for, but loosing everything she held dear (her friendship with Morgana, her first love and the love of her life as well as Merlin, because we all know how griefstricken he must've been) to gain it, and still persevering with the grace and strength she had all through it all. No wonder Arthur fell in love with her.

Also, I don't know if you mean Lancelot or Leon for Gwen and the knight. So I'll give my opinion on both:

Gwen and Lancelot, 8/10 sweet and supporting but marred by Lancelot deciding to move away instead than staying with her and Gwen not asking as the supporting woman she is.

Gwen and Leon, 9/10 I feel like they would be the kind of people that might end up together when the love of their life has passed away and find comfort in each other, and love, albeit different, still strong and supporting. I can see them grow old together with Arthur not in the picture anymore.

Then, onto Stranger Things we go, I must say something tho. I am not this great fan of ST so my opinion is only based of what little I've seen on tumblr and on the few episodes I've seen. So it's not going to be as elaborated as the one we've seen until now, because I know the show less and thus I'm going mostly by feel and not by analysis.

STRANGER THINGS

NANCY AND STEVE

Soft, sweet, dorky and funny. 10/10 would ship them by what little I've seen. Tho I don't see them having a very long term, as in endgame, relationship. Friendship and support, crush? Seriously, of course. But somehow I get the impression at some point they would grow a bit apart romantically, but I might be wrong. Still I'd watch it gladly. So gimme it.

NANCY AND JONATHAN

Feels like it makes sense, good chemistry might be the actors who are together, I think?, anyway it seeps into the characters so it makes it believable. Also Jonathan seems like the kind of gloomy kid who has a heart of gold and would break generational abuse patterns. So 8/10 but only because I feel like the funny, dorky side of it might be a bit missing.

ELEVEN AND MIKE

They seem cute, still don't convince me for some reason. Feels a bit wrong to me. Don't ask me why, I've not seen enough to tell you clearly, just...they feel off, like they don't belong together romantically. Though it may be one of those slow-burn ships that gets more and more believable as time passes.

6/10

ELEVEN AND WILL

Sorry, I don't know why but it bothers me a bit, I find it...wrong? I don't know, by what I've seen they're better off as friends and I don't see that much chemistry between characters, the actors are adorable when they're out of character, but inside the story from what little I've seen... friends I can see, lovers...not so much. Again might be my impression is wrong because I've not seen the whole thing so I don't know.

It doesn't feel right to me.

5/10

NANCY AND ROBIN

From what I've seen cute and funny and easygoing as well as soft. Totally would love to see it if they ever went in that direction. Even if it's not endgame it feels plausible for that to happen, wether it be a one-sided crush, only a crush never acted upon or a love story.

8/10

CRISSY AND EDDIE

Again, by what I've seen between the serie and tumblr... YES! Give me more, now!

10/10 would love to see more of it.

ROBIN AND STEVE

Always gave me the vibe of partners in crime. Funny to watch, don't think it has any romantic hues, but even only for their dynamic as friends I'd watch several episodes in a row. So I'd give it a 7/10.

JOYCE AND JIM

Tbh I don't really have a disposition either in a sense or another with this one. A couple of badass shots, but I don't really have enough to form a brutally honest opinion, so I guess... 6/10?

MIKE AND WILL

Now this one has potential. I feel like whether they'll play it one-sided, both sided but doomed, or endgame it feels plausible and credible.

It feels cuttingly real. So 100/10 on ground of it feeling plausible, credible and the kind of love that even when unrequited might be enough to send you off the rails.

I think I've gotten them all. Feel free to point out if I missed one, sorry again if the brutally honest opinions on Stranger things are neither that brutal, neither opinions truly, but I'm not really into it, I've watched it sparsely and thus know almost next to nothing about them.

Hope you enjoyed and thank you for the ask!

#ask the hag #anon asks #brutally honest opinion #asoiaf ships #merlin ships #stranger things ships

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thelawyerthatwaspromised · 6 years

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“But Sansa Lied to Jon!!!!”

As a person that believes very firmly that Jonsa is the most logical, poetic, and satisfying way to end the GoT/ASOIAF series, the push back against the Jonsa theory is often centered on some criticism of Sansa’s character. She’s also been the subject of innumerable theories regarding her loyalty to the Starks in general and Jon in particular.

The evidence (show wise) presented commonly points out her failure to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale before the Battle of the Bastards or for not even telling Jon how she knew that the Blackfish had retaken Riverrun.

I used to answer that it was a mistake that Sansa made and that Jon made it abundantly clear that he had forgiven her for these supposed transgressions so that, essentially, if it doesn’t matter to the characters then it shouldn’t “matter” to the audience in terms of judging whether Jon and Sansa have potential for a romantic future, and yet I now believe that only tells half the story. I still point to Jon’s forgiveness of her as dispositive proof that Jon doesn’t hold it against Sansa in the slightest - but I’m going to expand on why even the AUDIENCE shouldn’t hold it against Sansa.

I feel like a criticism of Sansa is the result of a significant failure to understand Sansa’s state of mind, a failure to understand what Sansa (rightfully) thinks of LF, and finally the VERY GOOD REASONS why Sansa didn’t want to tell Jon about LF.

[check under the cut]

Sansa’s State of Mind:

How easily people forget what Sansa was forced to endure BECAUSE OF LITTLEFINGER.

She was used as a pawn by LF to marry Ramsay. Maybe he didn’t know how evil Ramsay was when he arranged the marriage. It doesn’t even matter. He manipulated Sansa into the idea. He already had planned to “ride to her rescue” (putting Sansa in another Lyanna parallel) without telling Sansa except Sansa took initiative (with an assist from Theon) and escaped before he could carry out his plans.

So LF hears about Sansa’s escape and tries to arrange a meeting with her. Everything you need to know about how Sansa feels about LF is revealed in the scene in Mole’s Town.

This was as much about Sansa wanting the opportunity to tell LF off as anything. LF surprises her a bit, though, when he tells her that the Vale is prepared to ride to her aid. He also makes her think about whether Jon and his Freefolk are enough to defeat Ramsay.

The scene ends with Sansa telling LF she NEVER wants to see him again. Remember that line. In response, LF tries to plant another seed of doubt in Sansa’s mind about Jon - making sure she hears that Jon is only her “half brother”.

Sansa never wants to see LF or acknowledge that he is a part of her story. She’s ashamed of any association she has with him. She wants to forget him because she now links him with Ramsay in her mind permanently. The evidence is the scene with Jon, Davos, and company making a plan to take back Winterfell where Sansa withholds how she learned about Blackfish retaking Riverrun.

Which Brienne calls her out on...and Sansa doesn’t really respond.

There are two reasons why someone would withhold an association from somebody: they are scheming against somebody or they are ashamed. Sansa doesn’t look angry at Brienne because Sansa’s mind is on the fact that she lied to Jon because of her shame.

Sansa hates her association with LF in light of meeting Jon. Jon immediately promised to watch over her, to go where she goes. She FINALLY has a connection that matters. If you were in Sansa’s shoes and you FINALLY have someone that is willing to show you dedication and love, would you want them to know that you are receiving help from someone you despise and you KNOW Jon will despise? Her shame of LF (and herself for ever using him to help her cause with Jon) causes her silence. How do I know this? Precisely because of the pattern Sansa shows AFTER Brienne questions her in this scene.

“HALF Brother” aka “How Sansa Reacts to Littlefinger’s Continued Manipulation Attempts”

At this point...Sansa tries everything in her power to NEVER SEE LITTLEFINGER AGAIN. She also immediately claims Jon as a Stark visually for the world to see. This is her own personal answer to Littlefinger’s games. In her mind, she’s already decided that he is wrong about Jon.

Sansa finds Jon and feels good. LF tries to plant doubt in Sansa about Jon. Sansa claims Jon unofficially.

Sequencing matters.

She specifically is attempting to do this without LF’s help. She travels to Bear Island with Jon. Her status as a Stark is questioned. She goes with Jon to meet Lord Glover. Again, her status as a Stark is questioned...and help is refused. Through no true fault of their own, Sansa and Jon are faced with serious roadblocks in building the army they need to defeat Ramsay and re-capture Winterfell. It becomes obvious that Jon and Sansa as a team just haven’t gathered enough men.

Sansa tells him repeatedly that they don’t have enough. It’s a point of contention for the audience with Sansa. My evidence that it was never because she was making some elaborate plan to have Jon killed is pretty straightforward:

1) She begged Jon to wait longer to march on WF so they could make another round to try and rally support in the North. If she wanted Jon to be overwhelmed and didn’t care if he died, it wouldn’t make any sense to beg that he delay so they can gather a stronger force WITHOUT LITTLEFINGER. Jon refuses to relent, though, knowing Rickon is alive and believing that he can save his brother.

2) She only asked Littlefinger for help AFTER it became clear that Jon wasn’t going to delay the attack. If her plan existed in any other form that was devious for Jon, she would have already had it figured out with Littlefinger.

Sansa recognizes that this is not shaping up to be a battle they can win. Jon responds that “where can we get more men!?” Sansa doesn’t respond that LF and the Knights could help. Because Jon is so aggressive, Sansa shows a very obvious sadness that she is now in a position of asking a person that cannot be trust for help. She hates feeling as if she must as LF for help...while also simultaneously realizing she can’t expect Jon alone to protect her. She MUST take an active role in protecting him as well.

Never a bad reason to show these two huffing and puffing as Sansa realizes that Jon can’t do this alone.

So so so SOOOOOOO often this is used as damning evidence against Sansa. Why wouldn’t she tell him? Why would she hold back? Did she want him to die?

All of these inquiries completely miss a huge point: SANSA KNOWS HOW DANGEROUS LF CAN BE.

She has no idea if he’ll help - but even if he does? She completely has her eyes on the danger LF presents to Westeros and to Jon. She knows LF wants everything. I’m positive she has a suspicion that he wants her too. Where would this leave Jon? Is LF a good person for herself and Jon to be indebted to?

The point of Sansa’s campaign with Jon around the North was an attempt by Sansa to keep from EVER needing or SEEING Littlefinger ever again. Ultimately, she identifies that it’s something she HAS to do.

She knows the stakes after interacting with Ramsay.

And she follows through on her promise to Ramsay that he is going to die.

But here’s where we see that SANSA WAS RIGHT.

Littlefinger DOES become a problem.

First, he tries to come onto Sansa AGAIN. It’s become known to her what he is after. LF wants the North and he wants Sansa and Jon stands in the way of both of these goals. She did NOT wants this. How do I know she didn’t want this?

Her visible discomfort as Jon is telling her that she is the only reason why the Battle of the Bastards resulted in their victory. It is the focus of the camera.

She tells Jon herself that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. She hated herself for being in the position to ask Littlefinger for help. She never wanted to see him again. She felt like a fool asking for his help in the first place! Which leads to...

Sansa apologizes for doing what had to be done to win the battle. This isn’t a point for Sansa fans to stand a cheer and point out how stupid and incapable Jon is either. Because Sansa detests Littlefinger as much as Jon does. She contemplated having Brienne kill him in Mole’s Town. She blames him for her marriage to Ramsay. But ultimately Sansa decided that Jon winning the battle was more important than her personal vendetta against Littlefinger.

In my opinion she rightfully assessed that Jon wouldn’t accept Littlefinger’s help (adding to the fact that she didn’t want it in the first place) because Jon specifically brings up that Sansa was sold to the Boltons by Littlefinger before she begins to talk about him.

It all points to Sansa struggling with the idea that she TRIED with Jon to rally the forces they needed to defeat Ramsay but, with survival on the line, she was forced to enlist LF’s help knowing full well the problems he was going to cause for them.

Sansa regrets that she had to ask for help from somebody that she hates and wanted to avoid ever interacting with ever again.

Sansa’s now asked Jon’s forgiveness for not telling him. If she was scheming for power over him, there’s no scenario in which she wouldn’t demand that HE acknowledge her role in winning the battle. No, she’s guilt-stricken. And Jon’s reaction is what lifts her out of it.

There is no hint of bitterness from Jon. There is not doubt of Sansa’s loyalties. The way Jon responds to Sansa’s apology is how someone would deal with an apology from a person who’s been hurt and betrayed and closed themselves off as a defense mechanism...which is a feeling in Sansa that Jon desperately wants to break. He wants her to see them as a team. As a pair that can shares in each other’s joys and lessen each other’s burdens.

This isn’t Jon saying “tell me battle plans!” or “Sansa we have to be on the same page if we are gonna do this!” this is Jon saying “I get it. Let me share in your struggles, Sansa.”

This is Jon acknowledging that he couldn’t have captured Winterfell on his own and further that he needs her just as much as she might need him.

Finally in the end, Sansa was right.

This won’t even cover the practical effects of Sansa not telling Jon about LF (like the fact that it could have altered the battle plans in Ramsay’s favor) because that analysis is much more subjective with regard to what Sansa did or didn’t know about the battle. It’s focused on the personal reasons for Sansa not telling Jon about LF’s offer for help.

The idea that Sansa viewed LF as an undesirable threat against Jon and Winterfell? That’s much easier to prove in Sansa’s favor.

1) Jon Would Have Reacted Violently To LF’s Help

Jon couldn’t contain his emotions when it came to Sansa. LF picked up on it. Had Jon stayed, LF’s plotting would have revolved around killing Jon and/or placing him in the same position Robb was in when he was betrayed by his own bannermen. AFTER ONE CONVERSATION JON DOES THIS.

Confirmed.

2) Littlefinger’s Would Create A Problem That Only Sansa Could Solve (a game she never wanted to be forced to play)

“He’s a dangerous man. But even the most dangerous men can be outmaneuvered. And you’ve learned to maneuver from the very best.”

This is exactly what happened...except Littlefinger never imagined that he was talking about himself.

Confirmed.

3) Littlefinger’s Capability At Reading People Would Pose Problems For Sansa Personally

Sansa knows LF wants her at his side. She feels no personal danger from him. Her fear is for Jon. In a telling fashion, LF’s last scene before his execution has him prodding Sansa about her feelings with regard to Jon.

While Sansa detests Littlefinger, she now needs to resolve the situation where she can both 1) retain the loyalty of his forces; AND 2) protect Jon’s standing as KitN since she knows that is ultimately what he’s after. When she enlisted his help, she knew this would be a consequence...and one that she never desired having to confront in the first place. After the scene with Jon in the crypts, it becomes obvious that Littlefinger is acutely aware of how Jon feels for Sansa and he spends the rest of the season prodding how Sansa feels for Jon. This last scene, this enormously important last scene, tells us that he identifies their bond with each other and that a ROMANTIC rivalry is the only thing that could place himself in a position where he could pit Jon and Sansa against each other.

Littlefinger realized that it was never about power for Sansa. It was about Jon.

Conclusion: Sansa never wanted LF’s help. He enabled her abuse at the hands of Ramsay. She knew he did it out of a warped sense of love. She also realized that was a threat to Jon. She never wanted him involved in the first place and asking for his help felt like surrender to her. Yet she handled the fallout in a way that allows her (and Jon) to keep the Vale’s loyalty while eliminating Jon’s biggest potential threat that Sansa has any control over.

All along, Sansa not telling Jon about LF or the Vale was due to her desire to succeed without his help along with her shame at being associated with someone that she hates and someone she knows Jon hates. The proof is in her last interaction with Littlefinger.

Wherein Sansa finally gets the chance to announce to the world that Littlefinger betrayed her. She doesn’t forget. Jon doesn’t forget. These aren’t the Starks that Littlefinger is used to dealing with. They remember. The North remembers.

“Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

#jonsa #jon x sansa #sansa stark #jon snow #don't ever doubt sansa's loyalties #political jon theory #political sansa theory #political jon meta #ucl jon #undercover lover #king and queen in the north

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goodqueenaly · 3 years

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What do you think Sansa's chances of actually imposing her rule on the North(both with or without Littlefinger)? All those Valemen need to be compensated and the Northmen won't take kindly to a whole bunch of second and third sons from the Vale installing themselves as lords. Sansa's definitely the most Southron of the Stark children, and the Northmen are smart enough to realize that. Sansa might be seen as another Southron conqueror.

I am certainly curious what the northern view of Sansa will be once she comes back to Winterfell. One of what I find to be the most fascinating aspects of the convergence of Stark heirs on Winterfell is that there are no perfect, ideal options, from a strict dynastic succession view anyway. Sansa has the advantage of being the now-oldest surviving child of Ned and Catelyn and almost an adult by Westerosi standards, but she faces the challenge of being a girl (in not just a patriarchal society, but specifically within a dynasty that has never had a female ruler in her own right, including a would-be Stark heiress who shared her own name) as well as, to this ask's point, married to a non-northern aristocrat. It's not that I think it would be so much a compensation problem - I tend to think the military aristocracy of the Vale will be more motivated to rally to Sansa and Harry by a chance at battlefield glory than expectations of northern rewards - as it might be an appearance problem, the image of a non-northern army "invading" the North to seat the Lord of the Eyrie on Winterfell's high seat. (I'm reminded of something I wrote a while ago, about wondering whether Artos Stark "encouraged" or outright forced his niece Jocelyn to marry Benedict Royce to both move her physically far away from Winterfell (so that she would be that much harder pressed to assert her own claim) and make her a “foreigner” (and so less able to present herself and her children as Stark heirs in any dynastic crisis).) As Stannis used the notion of Sansa as "Lady Lannister" to encourage Jon to accept his offer of Winterfell, so perhaps northern nobles (especially those supporting another Stark candidate) would argue against "Lady Arryn" claiming Winterfell (not with the same specific animosity of the Lannisters to the Starks, of course, but you get the idea).

However, I think writing Sansa herself off as too "southron" to ever be accepted in the North is going too far. For one, what was clearly demonstrated in ADWD is that there is a very strong sense of loyalty toward the Stark name, and specifically the Ned Stark name; from Wyman Manderly (who brings up the point in the greater context of his admittedly male-based Stark restoration plan) to the northern clansmen (who of course declare their intent to fight for "the Ned's" daughter) to even Barbrey Dustin (albeit somewhat wryly on her part), the notion of "Ned's little girl" is a powerful motivator among the (obviously anti-Bolton) northern aristocracy. Nor would I discount Sansa's own notable skills; Sansa is no slouch when it comes to handling aristocratic diplomacy and political imagery, and I doubt that she would simply forget everything she's demonstrated up to this point when she shows up at Winterfell. She is a daughter of Winterfell, and she knows it (not for nothing does she still, even now, think of Ned as her father and associate Winterfell with her happiest memories); I don't doubt that Sansa will assert herself as a daughter of Winterfell when she shows up to her own home.

Perhaps most importantly, Sansa is in a unique position to bring to justice arguably the single greatest villain in the eyes of both the northern and Vale nobility - that is, Petyr Baelish. Sansa already knows that Baelish arranged Jon Arryn's murder, and given Baelish's penchant for monologuing to her to advertise his own schemes and ego, I would not at all be surprised if she came to find out that he both suggested to Joffrey that he call for Ned's head and sold Jeyne Poole into sex slavery before pretending that she was Arya to secure the Bolton takeover of the North. I very much like to think that Sansa will step into her mother's shoes, calling upon the loyal vassals of Ned Stark and Jon Arryn to bring to justice the man who had both of these lords venerated by those same vassals murdered - and if that would not prove Sansa is a Stark through and through, I don't know what could.

(And, of course, I don't think the Starklings themselves will be fighting against each other; I think they'll simply be glad to be together again. Too, I think everyone is going to be very quickly distracted by the major threat of the Wall coming down and the Others' invasion.)

#asoiaf meta #speculation #twow #sansa stark

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istumpysk · 3 years

Text

Operation Stumpy Re-Read

AGOT: Catelyn V (Chapter 28)

She remembered making mud pies with Lysa, the weight of them, the mud slick and brown between her fingers. They had served them to Littlefinger, giggling, and he'd eaten so much mud he was sick for a week. How young they all had been.

I’ve read this ten times and don’t know what to make of it.

+.+

"I am soaked through," Ser Rodrik complained. "Even my bones are wet."

All bones are wet, Rodrik.

+.+

"Leave your boots down here," Masha told them after she'd taken their coin. "The boy will clean them. I won't have you tracking mud up my stairs. Mind the bell. Those who come late to meals don't eat." There were no smiles, and no mention of sweet cakes.

Catelyn getting a small taste of that commoner life. Like mother, like daughters!

+.+

the Eyrie stood high and impregnable

Don’t worry, someone will penetrate.

+.+

Yet the mountain road was perilous. Shadowcats prowled those passes, rock slides were common, and the mountain clans were lawless brigands, descending from the heights to rob and kill and melting away like snow whenever the knights rode out from the Vale in search of them. Even Jon Arryn, as great a lord as any the Eyrie had ever known, had always traveled in strength when he crossed the mountains. Catelyn's only strength was one elderly knight, armored in loyalty.

Sansa, you’re going to get one knight, armored in loyalty. Good luck!

+.+

Her father was the staunchest man who'd ever lived, and she had no doubt that he would call his banners … but would the banners come? The Darrys and Rygers and Mootons had sworn oaths to Riverrun as well, yet they had fought with Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident, while Lord Frey had arrived with his levies well after the battle was over, leaving some doubt as to which army he had planned to join

Still keeping a close eye on those pesky Darrys.

+.+

It must not come to war, Catelyn thought fervently. They must not let it.

Don’t tell her what happens at the end of this chapter.

+.+

"The gods frown on the gambler," Ser Rodrik said sternly. He was of the north, and shared the Stark views on tournaments.

Can you imagine how much George would hate living in the North?

+.+

"My name is Marillion," the singer said, plucking a string on his woodharp. "Doubtless you've heard me play somewhere?"

I forgot this little weasel made an appearance this early.

+.+

"I might have a copper or two, but I'd sooner toss it down a well than pay for your howling," Ser Rodrik groused. His opinion of singers was well known; music was a lovely thing for girls, but he could not comprehend why any healthy boy would fill his hand with a harp when he might have had a sword.

Everyone in the story hates Rhaegar Targaryen.

(Marillion howling!)

+.+

"Why would I?" Marillion asked. "It's all blizzards and bearskins up there, and the Starks know no music but the howling of wolves."

You aren’t kidding.

+.+

"Anything you like, m'lord, anything at all," the innkeep promised. And may he choke on it, Catelyn thought

Love you, mom.

+.+

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face.

Thrilled that she gets this moment. Depressed, because I know what happens.

Final thoughts:

I find debate over whether Catelyn made the right call here about as interesting as debating the incident at Darry.

-> return to menu <-

#operation stumpy re-read #agot #catelyn v

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hchollym · 3 years

Note

So you don't think Brandon was the father of Ashara's baby?!

No, I don't. I'm not completely against it, so if it ends up being canon, then so be it, but I personally think Ned was the father.

Let's look at what we know about Ashara's relationship and the baby:

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

We see her dancing with Ned, because Brandon asked for him, but it doesn't make any mention of Ashara dancing with Brandon.

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Allyria Dayne - Ashara's sister - thinks that Ned was the one that Ashara fell for. Edric doesn't say anything about Brandon, which implies that Allyria didn't talk about him, but if Brandon was the father of Ashara's child, then don't you think Allyria would have at least mentioned him? And if she did, then it seems strange that Edric wouldn't at least comment on the fact that Ashara loved Arya's father but was pregnant by Arya's uncle (with a baby that would have been Arya's cousin), if that were actually the case.

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now."

The story about Ashara and Ned is one that plenty of people have heard about.

Is it possible that Ned used Ashara as a possible red herring for Jon's mother? Unlikely, given this situation:

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

That doesn't seem like a man that's encouraging rumors for the sake of throwing people off Jon's trail. Which means the rumors didn't start from him, and chances are, there was at least some truth to them. It seems to be the general consensus, even by Ashara's family, that there were feelings involved on both sides.

So could Brandon have slept with Ashara despite Ned's feelings for her? Yes, but I doubt it. Brandon was reckless and promiscuous, but he was also very family-oriented. I don't think people give him enough credit and recognize his loyalty to his family, but I have a hard time believing that he would betray his brother like that.

It seems to me like we see a lot of evidence for Ashara & Ned (not Ashara & Brandon), yet I usually see three arguments for why people don't believe Ned was the father:

1. Ned wouldn't dishonor someone.

"I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

We also don't know that Ned didn't intend to marry Ashara eventually. Neither one was betrothed yet, so it was a definite possibility. And Edric Dayne implies that Ashara's heartbreak had something to do with her love for Ned, so it's very possible that she was as blindsided (and upset) by Ned's marriage to Catelyn.

2. Ned doesn't think about her in canon.

First of all, Ned has a tendency to push unpleasant thoughts away (we see Sansa do something similar), because it's too difficult for him to deal with. We don't see him think about his father or mother either, but that doesn't mean that he didn't love them.

Plus, there's only two times that someone brings up Ashara to Ned. The first time (with Catelyn), we don't see his own inner thoughts, so we can't say for certain what was going through his mind at the time, but we do know that he gets angry about the rumor.

The second time, this is what the conversation looks like:

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

We don't see any inner thoughts from Ned at that moment, and it's obvious that he's focused on this very crucial situation happening at the present time, so I don't think his lack of reaction to Ashara's name here means anything.

3. Barristan Selmy only refers to Ashara's lover as "Stark."

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I don't know; this seems like a weak argument to me. Barristan obviously sees this "Stark" as his rival for Ashara's affections, so I don't think it's all that important that he's thinking about him by his last name, which is less personal and can be attributed to his jealousy.

My last thought is that I don't see any narrative purpose for Brandon being the father of Ashara's baby. I don't like the idea of Young Griff as being their child who is just being passed off as Aegon (for a lot of reasons), so what other good would it be for this detail to be revealed in later books? To be fair, there isn't really any narrative purpose for Ned to be the father either, but there is more evidence so far pointing to him, and I tend to doubt that we are going to see anything new in future books about this. I think this is one of those topics that is just going to be left open-ended.

To summarize, this is all just my opinion (so take it with a grain of salt), but I think Ned was the father of Ashara's baby, and I don't think that diminishes or undermines his love for Catelyn in any way. Ultimately, I don't think this topic will be revisited or confirmed either way in future books, so I guess it's just left up to the readers to decide what we believe 🤷‍♂️

Thanks for the ask!

#ashara dayne #ned stark #brandon stark #ashara x ned #asoiaf #speculation #ask me #anon ask

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jackoshadows · 2 years

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Who would you say shares parallels with Jon? (like arya with lyanna or sansa with lysa or Catelyn)

Hmm. I don't think that Jon shares any overt parallels with any character like Arya/Lyanna do. Arya and Lyanna stand out because GRRM hammers that parallel into readers by having several characters outright telling us of their similarities.

The closest parallel would be Ned Stark. They look the same and share the same values. Stannis sees a Ned Stark in Jon Snow and wants to make him Lord of Winterfell.

In fact Jon's arc more or less starts in AGoT after he has that little talk with Maester Aemon:

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. “Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. “He would do whatever was right,” he said... ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.”

“Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms... or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. The men who formed the Night’s Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children."

“A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we al do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man’s life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.”

Jon does not know it yet, but his father chooses love over honor for the right reasons. He thinks his father dishonored himself by fathering a bastard, but Ned sacrificed his honor for the love for his sister.

And when Jon is faced with the same dilemma- sister or duty- unlike Maester Aemon, he picks Arya over his duty, oaths and honor. In that sense he and Ned Stark can be literary mirrors in that they start off sharing similar values, end up facing similar tests and making similar or different decisions.

Jon tries his best to be his father, the man he looks upto and admires but as LC ends up making decisions that more and more diverges from Ned's and at one point thinks that Ned would be ashamed of him. In the end though, his arc as LC ends with him choosing the love of a sister over honor and duty, mirroring Ned and Lyanna.

Ned and Jon are also similar in that they have their own code of honor. It's not a Stark thing or a Vale thing. It's honor defined by their own ideas of right or wrong.

So if I had to pick, I would go with Jon and Ned.

#asks #Jon Snow #Ned Stark

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dwellordream · 2 years

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Think you could do a perspective flick for Robb when he marries Nell or talks with her on the godswood after being crowned? whichever you prefer

His mother warned him she had been feeling poorly this past day, but he does not know how to put off this conversation. By now he knows Nell well enough to know that she will be offended and infuriated if she finds out from anyone but him.

And part of him is angry too- with himself, for so readily accepting the crown. His father would never have done such a thing.

But his father never had to make these choices. The last rebellion rallied around Robert from the start, not a Stark of Winterfell. What could he have done? To flatly deny it would have turned many of his lords against him, or at the very least caused them to doubt his courage, his confidence in his cause.

And could he truly stomach kneeling in submission to any Baratheon, at this point?

He has to sit down on a low stone bench in Riverrun's small godswood to keep himself from pacing like an anxious little boy. This is his wife. Nell might tease and prod him, but she expects him to do his duty by her. He has to be a rock of certainty, not a tremulous child. He has to protect her, and now two kingdoms to boot.

He stands when he hears the rustle of her skirts; she's pale as a sheet and her eyes are red-rimmed, to his dismay, but her clothing and dark hair are as immaculate as usual.

"What's happened?" she demands, a slight waver in her voice. "Robb? Please, just tell me-,"

“Nell,” he takes her hands, and tenses when she almost yanks away from him. “Nell, listen to me. My mother told me you were feeling poorly, and I’m sorry to tell you like this, but I- it is better you hear it from me first. Before everyone is…” he trails off, and shakes his head. “For what it’s worth, I am sorry. Truly. I didn’t know- I didn’t think it would come to this-,”

“Robb Stark,” she hisses through gritted teeth, “gods help you if you don’t tell me now. Please.”

Irritation sparks in his chest- she cannot snap at him like he is still her junior, not now, especially not if anyone is to take him seriously as king, but he knows fear lies behind it, not contempt. Much like Grey Wind, when Nell is afraid she raises her hackles and goes on the offensive, baring her teeth. Wolves and women have more in common than he ever thought possible.

"They've named me King."

"What?" Her tone is blank, emotionless.

He braces himself for the explosion. “The Greatjon- no, I called a council meeting, and we’ve had word that Renly Baratheon seeks the throne.”

“What does that have to do with anything?” she exclaims. “Good, let Renly have it-,”

“Stannis has the right of it,” Robb says grimly. “And I mean to see Joffrey Baratheon dead for what he’s done to my father.”

That is true enough. His father was murdered; he was not even afforded a trial for his purported treason. Regardless of the Lannisters' fury over his mother's capture of the Imp, Eddard Stark deserved better. Robb will not be content until Sansa and Arya are safe and home again, and his father's death has been avenged.

“But the northern and river lords, they’ve rejected both. They pledged themselves to me instead.” He squares his shoulders. “As the King in the North. And not just the North- the river lords all knelt as well.” He sounds firmer now, to his relief. Calmer. Good. Let her see that.

For the first time in his recollection, Nell appears to be speechless. "You..." she trails off, pale eyes wide.

"I could not reject them," he says, tells himself as much as he tells her. He cannot fret over this any longer. What's done is done.

“They will crown us tomorrow,” he says. “I’m sorry, Nell. This was never my intention. But we must move forward. It’s as you said, yesterday. They would all die for me, so I must work doubly hard to be worthy of their pride. Of their loyalty.”

She's staring at him as if he's gone mad. "Crown us? I- I don't understand, Robb- Your Grace-," for an instant he thinks she is trying to joke, then realizes she is serious. What did she think was going to happen?

“As my queen consort,” he says, reaching for her hands. They are not shaking, at least. “You did not think- Nell, we are married. If I am to be king, you must be my queen.”

#ask game #haunt/hunt #ask #michaelschumacher94 #donella bolton

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ladyaryawolf · 4 years

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Why Jonsa does not work in the books.

This post is where starts the conflict. Jonsa thoughs. My toughts.

What makes a lot o people ship Jon x Sansa is because of the show, and I can understand it. Ship what you want. It's your right.

It does not mean that people can lie about what happens in the books, or what is cannon by GrrM himself.

D&D gave part of Arya's history and traits to Sansa in the show. Fact.

Jeyne Poole was using Arya's name. She was the one that was abused by Ramsay Balton. This false Arya was the one that the North went into a War, and the one that made Jon Snow break his vows. It was not Sansa who Jon fought and died for.

Ship what you want. You are free to ship. Making paralelles about Cat and Ned with Jonsa. Okay. I am a Jonrya shipper. I make parallels of Jonrya and Lyanna/Rhaegar and Alyssane/Jaehaerys. We are passionate shippers after all, in a fandom where morality is not a big deal the most part of time. You have a mean to make your point, then use it.

But whatever. GrrM said that the show and the books are like different universes. Words of the author. You can't discuss that.

What I can NOT take is people lying about canonic things, and my mind explodes when I read a lot of lies of the books to justify Jonsa.

Like Sansa is Jon's type. Like Jon remembers of Sansa when he met Ygritte. Like Jon and Sansa were always close. Lies!

He compares Ygritte to Arya, tought he addmit they don't even look alike, he never, never tought about Sansa while with Ygritte. He compares Val to Arya.

"They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her." (Jon, A Game of Thrones).

"And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him." (Jon, A Game of Thrones)

"The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north." (Jon, A Game of Thrones)

"Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

"Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

“I have no sister.” The words were knives.

"The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart." (Jon, A Dance with Dragon)

"What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? "(Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

The Ygritte comparation:

“Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it’s done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t?” - Jon VI, ACoK

“Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he’d thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.” - Jon VI, ACoK

“Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a “spearwife” when they’d captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn’t wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but “spearwife” fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.” - Jon II, ASoS

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?” - Jon III, ASoS

When he received the letter of Ramsay

"Jon saw no reason not to tell him. “Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son’s wedding to…” His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father."

"Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him."

"His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily." (Jon, a Dance with Dragons).

"Jon felt as stiff as a man of sixty years. Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart. He’d had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo’s blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. He wondered if she still had it. Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her, but if she tried to stick the Bastard, it could mean her life." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons).

• In books the quote “Love is the death of duty” by Maester Aemon is used when Jon decidesld break his vows from nights watch to save “Arya”. Arya is the character Jon loves the most and he thinks on her in every moment.

He dies thinking about Arya:

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whitspered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…" (Jon, A Dance with Dragons).

George's Interviews:

“At some points, when [Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes,” he said. “I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that, and David and Dan made that decision.” - Time Magazine, 2017

“You have to remember that I started writing this story in 1991 and I first met David and Dan in 2007. I was living with these characters and this world for 16 years before we even started working on the show. They’re pretty fixed in my mind and I’m not going to change anything because of the show, or reaction to the show, or what fans think. I’m just still writing the story that I set out to write in the early 1990s.” - Time Magazine, 2017

My conclusion:

Like I said before. You are free to ship everyone, but not lie about Canon things written by George RR Mantin himself. This is the canonic verse. Jon and Samsa rarely think of each other. Sansa was always distant from him, she regreats it later, but still is a fact. I am not an anti-Sansa. She is not my favorite, i addmit, but anti, for me, is somente idiot that says stupid arguements with insults just to put another character in glory, only because they dislike another, and even refuse to aguement as adults. In another words, those antis are childsh.

There is a lot of people saying that Jon would be good for Sansa and take him out of her is something cruel, as everything that is good for her is fanservice. We agree in disagree. There is no way we could try taking Jon from Sansa, if he was not hers in first place. Like I said, they rarely think of each other, she bullied him when they lived together, she kept distance following Cat's personal opinion. Sansa's fault? No. She was a child seeing her mother's opinions, and following it. It does not change what she have done. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Jon hates her, but the memories he shares with Sansa during his childhood are not the best. It doesn't mean they won't get along. They will! Of course they will, by all they could know, they would be the lasts of the Starks alive. Sansa might go to Winterfell in TWoW before Arya. Would they get closer? Probably. Will they share the same bond showned on TV show? No. This is bad for her? No. She would be home, with her family. This is bad to you? Sounds terrible? Does it sounds harsh?

Like, other thing that I hate about Jonsa-stans (just a part of them) justifies that she needs someone to make her happy. With all respect, if you think this way about Sansa, you do not like her. Not really. Sansa is much more complex of a character to say that only a romantic relationship with a man could make her happy. She does not need someone else in a romantic way to make her happy. She passed through a hell in King's Landing, and Petyr actions with her can be described only as disgusting. To say the only good thing that could happen to her is a man, you are reducing her character to a simple one. Everything she wants it's to go home. She is smart, kind and clever. Sansa is making Petyr Baelish play in her hands. I don't want Sansa to end up alone. She deserves a lot. She is really strong, in so many ways. Her strengh is not like Arya, Ygritte or Val. It's subtle and delicate, like Margaery in someway. Sansa deserves a man who respects her, a man who loves her with all his heart, a man that carries for her the same way Jon carries for Arya. Uconditionally.

Other thing that I hear is that Jonsa stans always says that, we, Arya-stans, look to Jonsa as threat to Arya, and we all get mad about it. I can't talk in the name of the others. For me, fuck the show. I don't care. I don't even look at the show as part of GrrM work anymore. But what gets me mad as an Arya stan, and a Jonrya shipper is not Jonsa itself. They had chemistry on screen, but in the books they don't have any of it. This is what gets me mad.

It's trying to stole something that belongs to Jon and Arya alone that gets me mad. One of the strongest and purest bonds I have ever seen in books or screen. It doesn't belong to Sansa all this devotion. It's not canon in the books, and annoys me to see tons of people lying and self inserting Sansa in Jon's heart just because they want the books to happen the same way in the show. Forget it. It's not going to happen. A lot of other characters and relationships have been destroyed by D&D, not only Jon & Arya. Write and read fanfics. Ship whatever the hell you want, but don't lie about cononic things. If Jon and Arya get along as a romantic couple or not, does not change that this bond is theirs. Sansa has her own history in the books. Her own importance. She wil be part to take Winterfell back, not the same way she did on the show, but she will be a big part of it. And she is a Stark! The end! Sansa is a southern lady in many ways, but she is Sansa Stark and a princess by her own right, dammit! She says it herself that her strengh comes from the walls within Winterfell!

Thank you to read. I have to be greatful to another posts that helped me to write it. I have to say sorry about my grammar. English is not my first language, but I hope what I wrote was clear to understand. See you soon.

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hopelesstvaddict · 5 years

Text

Jon and Sansa's relationship is fragile because of Jon's insecurities

[So we're back. Instead of full reviews I think I'm just gonna write about specific subjects that make me pause and think, more than the general episodes]

So we've been treated with Jon's return to Winterfell and his rocky relationship with Sansa resumes. Again. Ain't this old by now ? Perhaps not.

Jon and Sansa are at their most affectionate when it comes to hugs but this second time, Sansa keeps focused on what's important. I don't really understand why Jon would take issue with Sansa speaking up at the council in the Great Hall; she brought up very valid points. Saving the world is important of course but people tend to forget what needs to happen behind the scenes in order to ensure that. I think I'm not alone in this but I also wondered why she didn't take into account Dany's army when preparing all the food storing. While that can be blamed on sloppy writing and it's fair to say that she could have at least entertained the idea, it's also fair to remember that Jon's main idea was first to mine dragonglass and then try to convince Dany to help them. Sansa was not convinced he would succeed; in her mind, Dany would only care about her throne. So far she's not proven entirely wrong. And we also have to remember that Jon didn't send any message to her for a long time and certainly not before he knelt. Probably the last scroll she got was something like 'Hey I'm ok' and then next thing she knew he had bent the knee. So by this time it was already too late to gather whatever food was necessary. Plus I think it's safe to say the entire North brought what food was available FOR THE NORTH ONLY. Obviously there wasn't much and in any case, even if she had been warned she'd have to feed many more, there wouldn't have been enough. Sansa takes care of all this, and all the political stuff - things that both Jon and Dany do not care about and have little regard for. Jon still doesn’t quite realize how much he needs Sansa to handle all of this because he doesn’t realize how important it is. Yet.

The scene that stood out the most takes place during Jon and Arya's reunion in which Jon tries to dismiss Sansa. Live reaction: Ok so we're back to this 'Jon-putting-down-his-sister' nonsense? At first view, it's quite infuriating to see Jon acting this way and it's hard to believe these two ever found a way to unite and effing retake Winterfell. But once you stop and think about it, this little exchange yields so much to analyze.

As many pointed out, Jon likely tries to revert to a childhood joke he shared with Arya when they were younger and used to diss their sister together. Fair point. Siblings often side against one another. But that shows several things. Jon has been away from Arya all series long and he doesn't realize yet that she's not his little baby sister anymore. His conversation about Needle further proves the point. In any case, Arya is having none of it and supports Sansa. We're all here for this.

Here Jon seemingly tries to diminish Sansa's intelligence. But he knows that she really IS smarter than everyone else. He knows it. So I think part of what's going on here is that Jon works as the embodiment of the last part of the general audience who still thinks that Sansa is useless and this scene was written for Arya - a known fan favorite - to dismiss this and assert her support of Sansa - to really drive home this idea. The scene with Tyrion (another fan favorite) serves a similar purpose.

Narratively, beyond Jon dismissing Sansa yet again, this reads as another instance where it's more about Jon than it is about Sansa. Several times Jon has confronted Sansa about her asserted cleverness - and all those times, she's been right - and each time it boiled down to Jon's lack of self-confidence and the need to prove himself to his sister. When she told him that Ramsey was more devious than what he thought, his first reaction was to boast about his military achievements. When she told him to be smarter than Robb and their father, his reaction was to half-jokingly dismiss her offer of counsel. This essentially is a version of him saying 'Yeah she's smart but so am I and I wish she saw it too'

This ties closely with the rest of the exchange where Arya tells him that Sansa is defending the family. Pay attention to what Jon says next - specifically the choice of phrasing it.

There is so much to draw from that line. He doesn't say 'She's my family too' or 'she's our family' or 'I'm your family too'. His choice of words means 'I, Jon, am part of Sansa's family too'. That singles out Sansa as Jon's focus for discontent. He could have said 'I'm your family' or just 'I'm family too' and that would have included Bran and Arya as well. But no, Sansa alone is who Jon focuses on. This shows that he still has some unresolved issues with her - even after all that happened between them. After two seasons of her repeatingly validating him, her saying out loud 'You're a Stark to me' he still doubts HER in particular

Perhaps that boils down to her behavior towards him when they were children since this comes up again later. A seemingly random bit of conversation but one can't help but wonder why this was brought up again. Jon and Sansa weren't close growing up and Jon is a deeply insecure person, being a bastard and all that and it's understandable that he would have a hard time letting go of all these presumptions when they all but defined his childhood. She was the sole of his siblings to make him feel like he didn't have a real place in the family (to make it very simple), hence why he doesn't have a problem with Arya or Bran. Yet.

But how can Sansa change that ? A girl can repeat her support for him so much and reassure him all the time but really it's up to Jon to get past childish jabbing and accept the woman his sister has become and that she's genuine in her concern towards him. That she's changed.

'I'm her family too' is another way of saying 'I'm part of her family too so why is she always antagonizing me/fighting me/disagreeing with me?' Jon still thinks Sansa doesn't consider him family and she's the last one not to in his mind.

The choice of words also emphasizes the 'I'. Rather than say 'she' and put focus on Sansa alone, the use of 'I' brings the sentence back to Jon and puts the spotlight on him as well. 'I am part of her family too'. As if he's saying it out loud and repeating it so that perhaps his thick brain will finally accept it. This is a clever exchange that foreshadows the existential/identity crisis that he's going to go through no later than before the end of the episode. Which renders Arya's 'Don't forget that' quite unsubtle. This will be Jon’s final storyline, the resolution of the one problem that defined him at the beginning of the story.

This need to gain Sansa's approval is driven further in the scene the two of them share later on (another candlelit setting). We have yet to see Jon interact with Bran or Arya but Jon is decidedly different with Sansa. Perhaps that's because they're the eldest. Perhaps that's because they're closer in age. Perhaps that's because they are the leaders of their House. Perhaps that's because they went to war together. In any case, Jon is wary, unsure and insecure about how she feels about him. He doesn’t look to Sansa the way he affectionately looks to Arya or Bran. A smile is rare when he interacts with Sansa. He yells, they don't see eye to eye, he feels like she belittles him, he feels hurt and at the end of it, this :

This is him asking her for reassurance. Asking for a clear answer. 'Please trust me. Please tell me that you support me'. He craves her validation. After he all but dismissed her in front of Arya. Why go see her? Why take her intel so close to his heart then ?

To which she responds 'You know I do'. Two things to take from this. First, once again she reassures him and reasserts her support and loyalty to him. Second, 'YOU KNOW I do' means 'you already know the answer'. This shows that in her mind, Jon should ALREADY know that he has acquired her undying support - probably against her better judgement. Newsflash : he doesn’t.

Can we stop now for a second and breathe a sigh of relief that Sansa has grown confident enough to be sure of who she is and not question Jon's lack of faith in her ? Thank the Gods one of them has their shit together because if she were like him, this wouldn't go anywhere.

It's possible that her not lashing out at him and instead adopting this quiet, sad behavior is also the manifestation of her own fear towards him - that he effectively abandoned her. For all the tough 'no one can protect me' behavior, anyone is going to be touched to have someone pledge to protect them.

Anyway, Sansa trusts Jon but he doesn't. It's quite interesting that he was the one asking for mutual trust before and yet he is the one in the end who can't totally do it because in his heart, he is still deeply insecure about her. Sure there were some steps made. Ensuring the safety of the North and entrusting her with it was a huge improvement. But still, we see that on a personal level he is quite not there.

The obvious question then is WHY. Why is he still insecure ? And why Sansa in particular ? The beginning of an answer can be found in the relationship he had with her while they were children and how it compares to Arya and Bran. Maybe that's just remnants of that strained relationship.

But if Sansa has changed and for the better and Jon still struggles to accept it, let's just hope that a similar situation doesn't arise with Arya and Bran. Let's rule out the latter since he's all about the zen attitude but we've already seen that Arya is not Jon's Arya anymore and that she will stand beside Sansa when needed. For now, Jon has no reason to doubt Arya like he does Sansa. When the reveal about his parentage comes out, how will Sansa and Arya react ? If he can't handle the thought of one sister seemingly doubting him, what's it going to be if it's two sisters ?

All of this insecurity regarding Sansa - for now - is at least partly in preparation of the drama that is sure to unfold in the next weeks. Jon fears that Sansa doesn't see him as family and now, he has even more reason to be afraid. All the drama that has happened between them for seasons boils down to this deep fear of not being accepted by her and now we're in for the culmination. There will be a lot of fighting, we’re told. Jon will sulk and convince himself that he was right in the end, that he wasn't part of the family and more so, that SHE was right not to accept him. Sansa on the other hand, I suspect, will mainly fight to make him accept once and for all that he is a Stark. That's the passionate fight for her this season. To make her family complete.

Another interesting thing to note - as others have observed - is that the conversation is left unfinished.

Sansa asks if Jon loves Dany and he doesn't respond. Once again, Sansa demonstrates - to us and to Jon - how perceptive she is, how well she can read people, and him specifically. As of now, Jon’s relationship with Dany is still a secret and yet she has figured it out.

What's really notable is that this is a pattern in a lot of Sansa/Jon conversations, specifically the ones where they argue in private. Compare this one to the tent scene in 6x09 or the one in 7x01 right after the council or even in 6x07 when they argue about the men they have. We have Sansa and Jon arguing heatedly then the conversation tones down to soft, sad voices and then it ends before resolution can happen, either because they choose to end it there, someone else interrupts or we simply are denied to see it.

Sansa and Jon have been arguing ever since they reunited. Every season they were pitted against each other as the siblings who fought. Now in the final season, it's still brought up and used in the narrative. Meaning that it means something, that it's important to the story. We saw that Arya and Sansa fought in Season 7. It was tied to their old bickering from childhood and ultimately it was resolved and now Arya stands by her sister. Narratively, a conflict plaguing characters has to be resolved when the story comes to its conclusion. Sansa and Jon’s storyline has been going on since Season 6 now, so their relationship HAS TO come to a resolution, one way or another. And it'll be all about Jon finally accepting that he is a Stark and about him accepting that Sansa has accepted it.

#got #game of thrones #sansa stark #got meta #game of thrones meta #jon snow #jonsa #actuallyjonsa #arya stark #got theories #game of thrones theories #got thoughts #game of thrones season 8 #got s8 #got season 8 #game of thrones s8 #jon x sansa #got analysis #game of thrones analysis

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fedonciadale · 6 years

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You keep suggesting that Jon and Sansa will end up in the South. Forgive me but I don't understand how you can think it a possibility? Is there any evidence or foreshadowing in the books to suggest this outcome? I agree with most of your theories except for this one. Everything so far suggests that Sansa will remain in the North and rebuild Winterfell. Also with Sansas experience and Jons reaction to KL I highly doubt they would go there WILLINGLY.

(2) Pls correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like your belief that Jon and Sansa will either rule the south or both rule and live in the south stems from finding similarities with LOTR and the war of the roses, though I don’t believe I ever read GRRM say that GOT would end the same exact way (except for having a bittersweet ending similar to LOTR). Otherwise there is nothing in the books or show to suggest the Sansa and Jons future lies in south, quite the opposite. The show made a great effort to

(3) to connect both Jon and Sansa to the North and only the North. With Jons speach to his bannermen on where his heart and loyalties lie, Sansa building the snow castle and her being ‘the future of house Stark’ and 'Key to the North’ again not the South. I also think it’s reasonable to say that though ASOIAF may draw on many influnces (as GRRM himself stated) from LOTR and TWOTR that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will end the same way. ASOIAF is still it’s own story, I do think the GRRM is

(4) more accomplished author than to just copy the events of history or the outcome of a previous book but with new twists. Just because he was influenced by some aspects in order to create the world and events of ASOIAF does not mean the story will go in the exact same direction. The north is not scotland and does not nessesarily have to join the seven kingdoms in the end, Jon and Sansa are not Aargon and Arwen destined to become the high King and Queen. It was GRRM who said he is a gardener not an

(5) architect. Assuming that to be true he could not have possibly planed the ending of ASOIAF according to the ending of LOTR and TWOTR. Again just because the ending will be bittersweet in a similar vein to LOTR does not equal that we should expect a similar conclusion in terms of how and where the characters end up and what becomes of the seven kingdoms.

Dear nonny,

for the record, I much prefer Jon and Sansa in the North. There are just some things that make me think that this is not what we will get, and you guessed right, one of them is the historical parallel to the Wars of the Roses. LOTR doesn’t really come into it though, because in LOTR North and South are not really in opposition to each other and it’s pretty clear in the books that Aragorn also resides in the North.

You point out that the show and the books make it quite clear that Jon’s and Sansa’s hearts belong to the North, and that they are crucial for the survival and possibly even more the rebuilding of Winterfell, and I couldn’t agree more, and I want them to end up in Winterfell. In any case there is foreshadowing for Jon to be king, and for Sansa to be Queen, and this might mean King and Queen of the 7 Kingdoms.

For various reasons - which I explained in another ask post - I don’t think that we will see the seven Kingdoms fall apart at the end of the series. I do think that a Great Council and the establishment of something like a proto-parliament has a high probability. You have the historical precedent of Great councils (twice so far, there should be a third), you have the election of the LC and you have the free cities of Braavos as an example. I think it is possible Jon will be chosen as king in a great council, and as king of the 7K.

If we look at historical parallels of the late Middle Ages, there is a tendency to more centralism not less - unless you look at Germany in the Late Middle Ages, but I’ve never seen a fantasy novel that tried to do late medieval Germany - probably because it’s so fucking complicated - and I doubt GRRM will do that.

I do think that part of the bittersweet ending could be that the North will not get the independence they want, but that they will get representation (and this would be a historical parallel). If Jon and Sansa become King and Queen in Westeros they need a capital. I would prefer that capital to be Winterfell, but it could be somewhere else - maybe a new one. If they reside in Winterfell, it could mean that Bran and Arya are gone - either dead or in a tree or off for adventuring in the world - and that would be rather sad.

As you said, GRRM writes his own story, and we won’t know what he has in mind until the books will be finished. I just try to think about what ‘bittersweet’ could mean, and imho Jon and Sansa living in another capital but Winterfell is a possibility. That would not prevent them to save and rebuild the North. I only mentioned this in the last ask, because I can imagine Jon and Sansa somewhere else and Bran and/or Arya in Winterfell. Jon and Sansa would be founders of a new dynasty and the instigators of a reform of the political constitution of the 7K, and Bran or Arya would continue the Stark line in Winterfell. All I’m saying is that it is a possibility. And I said this in answer to an ask about how I could see Bran or Arya continuing the Stark line.

As you said the foreshadowing for this outcome is not very strong, and my argument originates in the idea that I don’t think we’ll see the 7 kingdoms torn apart, and a new dynasty, with a new sigil, a new name, a new capital yet with some ties to the tradition of the 7 kingdoms could be a solution.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #northern independence #The North Remembers #Jon as King of Westeros

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sydney-stylites-blog · 7 years

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Of betrayals and backstabbings | The Dragonpit edition

Yeah the title really doesn't make a lot of sense, but I liked how it sounded 🤷🏻 I kind of wanted to explore the whole Jon betraying Dany thing again, and why the Dragonpit scene conclusively ended any doubts I might have had regarding that.

I've been staunchly against the concept of Jon betraying Dany and I've addressed it multiple times already. Betraying Dany doesn't fit in Jon's character sketch. There a million already existing problems which everyone has to deal with, and Jon playing Dany is not one of them. Of course, then we have the classic case of Ygritte brought up. If Jon could betray her for the Night's Watch, why can't he betray Dany for his family? What antis conveniently forget every time they bring this up is that Ygritte (and the wildlings) were coming to destroy the Night's Watch (and a ton of innocent people while at it). So Jon betrayed her because he had no other option. Dany is coming with her armies and dragons to save Jon's home, save the North...so why, why would Jon betray her? What would he have to gain by this?

Consider this. When Sansa and Arya played Littlefinger, that was awesome! We not only supported it, but we were thrilled af when it happened! But what about when Littlefinger had betrayed Ned Stark, and that was after telling him he shouldn't have trusted him? I mean, he had warned him earlier hadn't he? So the betrayal wasn't out of the blue, right? It was something we should have been expecting, wasn't it? But did we support that? Did we agree with or sympathise with Littlefinger?

And okay, when Jon betrayed Ygritte, who did you agree with more? Did you feel bad for Ygritte but also felt that Jon had done the right thing? Could you see Jon's struggle between love and duty and acknowledge that the right choice wasn't as easy to make?

Why were our reactions different to all those situations? Short answer - motive. Our reaction to betrayals are based on the motive, and how well it is portrayed in the narrative. 'A woman murdered a man' evokes a different reaction than 'a woman executed a man who had led to the death of her own father'. Throw in the fact that he was still trying to get her to kill her sister, and we not only agree with the woman in question here, we are positively cheering her on! Because that's the difference motive makes - it justifies actions otherwise considered wrong, and we have numerous examples of it in Game of Thrones. My personal favorite, of course, is Jaime and the Kingslayer story because it perfectly highlights the difference between us knowing the reason, or judging the action as it stands.

So what could be Jon's motives for playing Dany?

We have the obvious, to protect his family and Winterfell from the unstable witch (that is supposedly Dany on tumblr).

But that's the thing again antis. Dany has never once, not once threatened or even implied in extremely vague terms anything that could be constituted to be a threat to Winterfell or the Starks. In all their interactions, whenever she wanted Jon to bend the knee, she never even went in the general area of threatening his family if he refused to. The issue of family wasn't brought up at all in that sense, so the idea that she would harm his family now, after having clearly developed feelings for him, has only sprung from the minds of the Jonsa Fandom who very much want it to be true because it justifies their POV and their ship. Because the assumption that Dany would want to destroy Winterfell, destroy the Starks and Jon realized this and is appeasing her by catering to her romantic feelings would work extremely well if, if it had been implied anywhere at least once, even if vaguely. But it hasn't been portrayed, and by itself fails to suffice as the motive setting up Jon conning Dany.

Jon will never betray Northern independence for love, and is only faking it to protect the North from Dany's ire.

Considering that the North was already protected from Dany's ire before Jon pledged himself to her, I don't even know where this comes from. Dany promised to fight the White Walkers without asking anything in return (an action which squarely put her in the 'good guy' category), Jon playing her to accomplish something which had already been accomplished is not only senseless, paranoic and unnecessary, but it also would then put him firmly in the douchebag category. Dany let him keep the North, only for him to offer it to her twice, and then ultimately turn right around and say lol, kidding?? Really Jonsa peeps? That makes sense to any of you? Why is it so hard to accept that Jon judged her worthy of his allegiance? But of course, that wouldn't work for the antis and this mess is far more appealing.

About the Northern independence though, I've already mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. The whole 'King in the North' concept arose because the Starks would not accept the Lannisters as their king, not after what they had done. Supporting the Baratheons would have been treasonous and dishonourable, and would have embroiled them in a civil war they had no interest in being part of. The main reason however, was that the Northern Lords had grown disillusioned with the Southern kings who did not care about the Northern issues at all and only paid attention to the North when it was in their own interests. Now, with Daenerys pledging herself to defeat the White Walkers, the entire dynamic of the game had changed, the Southern ruler in point, was not a Lannister or a Baratheons, but a Targaryen, who was coming to save the North instead of abandoning them to their plight and, contrary to popular belief, could in fact be trusted. The North Remembers, and it is this that Jon hopes the North will remember once the Walkers have been defeated, that Daenerys is not her father. So, in short, Jon is not playing Dany for Northern independence because it's frankly ridiculous and the alternative (he feels she's a worthy ruler) makes much more sense in this case.

Jon is playing Dany for Sansa's sake, either because he took her advice about not making mistakes seriously or he's deeply in love with her.

This is a very shipper reason, as canonically there has been no love shown from either of them, but I would have still accepted this reason if they hadn't already made it crystal clear that Jon and Sansa don't agree politically. They both have different views regarding politics, and while Jon does ask her for her opinions, he does what he believes he should do anyway. Also, while Sansa has a more grounded worldview which takes into account people's feelings and motivations - rewarding those true to you for their loyalty (Karstarks and Umbers), taking Cersei more seriously, not abandoning the North and literally everything else, Jon's are more idealistic and based on his strong moral code of 'honor' - not taking the castles away from the Karstarks and Umbers, choosing to believe in Tyrion, putting his own life on the line to save his people (by going to Dragonstone). Jon has been consistently portrayed, all throughout this season, as valuing honor above everything - a very strong Ned Stark trait tbh - and not taking Sansa's advice as seriously as he should (which is what she notices as well, and it upsets her). So with this set-up, believing that he is actually playing Dany because of what Sansa has told him is, quite frankly, a stretch, because there is no narrative indication which would make us believe that. This would also explain Sansa's reaction to learning he had bent the knee, she's resigned to it because she knows that though Jon loves and respects her, he still does what he thinks is the right thing to do. Also, Sansa doesn't berate him for doing what he did in the way she would have had she believed he had been repeating Ned's and Robb's mistakes - - > she doesn't believe he's making those mistakes ie bending the knee to Dany is not disastrous (as the antis would have you believe). Sansa is upset because Jon clearly didn't consider asking Sansa's opinion about a very important political decision, and she's upset because she knows that the Northern Lords will not accept this easily, but she doesn't react as if it's the worst thing in the world ever, nor does she act thoughtful, which would have indicated that all is not as it seems. In short, Sansa's reaction is very much expected under the circumstances, which are that Jon doesn't take her as seriously as he should. And given this, it seems unlikely to imagine that he's in cahoots with Sansa and they're taking down the Dragon Queen together (together! 😂)

Every reason for Jon playing Dany would have worked if the narrative had given some sort of suggestion about a possible motive, some indication of Jon treating Sansa's advice seriously, or made Jon give up the North before she pledged to fight the Walkers. And the nail in the coffin for the 'undercover lover' theory was the Dragonpit scene. Nothing would have cast stronger doubts on whether Jon truly loves Dany or not, than him accepting the truce. Despite it being the smart political move, it would have also raised a tiny red flag regarding Jon's true intentions, in my mind at least. Jon basically had nothing to lose by accepting the truce, nothing except for his honor. And that made him refuse! It wasn't just him making a public proclamation that he loves Dany (although it sorta was 😂), it was him being faced with a choice to sacrifice his honor, his word, to get what he wanted, it was him being asked to choose whether he truly was his father's son, it was him being expected by the one who knew the truth to do the dishonourable thing for the greater good. He could have lied and supported Dany later, he could simply have walked away from the battles to come because they didn't directly concern him and his people and let Dany fend for herself. But would it have been the honorable thing to do? Smarter, yes. Wiser, yes. More beneficial to his own people, yes. But honorable? After taking Dany's help to defeat the White Walkers, which let's be honest, are a far greater threat to the North than anywhere else, after taking her armies and dragons to save his home and then turning his back on her when Cersei came at her with fresh forces would have been as far from honor as possible. If Jon has indeed been playing Dany all along, then he should have accepted Cersei's offer - which would not only have placated the Northern Lords later, but would also have served as a potential hint of him playing Dany. But in keeping with the characteristic theme of this season, Jon chooses honor over the alternative more politically savvy choice. He upset everybody, even Dany, with this choice when he could have gone with the easier one, which would have ensured everyone - those at the Dragonpit as well as the Northern lords - would have been happy with the outcome. Everyone would have gotten what they wanted, and the subsequent - if any - reveal of Jon having played Dany all along would have made much more sense to the audience.

But Jon did not make the easy choice. The deliberate inclusion of this scene was only to portray that even when the choice is tough, Jon would choose honor. This is his character, his identity. Also, the callbacks to Ned Stark, aside from foreshadowing that when the time comes to choose, Jon would most likely choose his Stark heritage, remind us that Ned Stark valued honor above all, and the only times he sacrificed it was over love - love for his sister and love for his daughters, which caused him to abandon his honor for their survival. So for Ned Stark's son to betray a woman who trusts, loves, respects and admires him, a woman who's had the same struggles in life as he himself has, a woman who is willing to set aside her own personal goals to help him destroy the threat to his home, for him to betray a woman who has already given him everything he wanted, is actually a betrayal of Ned Stark's legacy and everything he stood for. By going so far as to blatantly lie in Ned Stark's name, Jon would have, in one stroke, destroyed everything that Ned Stark inculcated and symbolised, given what we already know about him having no motive at all for the undercover lover angle. So the callback to Ned was very necessary in highlighting that Jon is truly Ned's son, and throwing away his honor without an ironclad reason is not his character. It's simply not.

Also, this scene was very important because it very starkly set up the contrast between Jon (and even Dany) and Cersei. Remember how all of us were totally skeptical about believing Cersei at all in the first place? Even after the convincing reason of her wanting to protect her to-be-born child, it still was hard to believe that she would actually help them. And why was that?

'When enough people make false promises words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies.'

As the audience, we now know not to trust Cersei. Even when she's being completely sincere, it's hard to trust her because her words have long since stopped meaning anything to us, she's not someone who's promises we'll ever trust, because as Jon said, they are only better and more elaborate lies. And lies won't help us in this fight. So Jon not lying is very important to show us this difference, of how we basically trust Jon's promises and how cautious we are when it comes to Cersei. And as if that's not enough, Cersei's scene with Jaime lays it all completely out, when Jaime is do adamant about sticking to his promise and is struggling to understand how Cersei could have lied to them.

Cersei: I'll say whatever I need to say to ensure the survival of our house

To Cersei, the priority is only her house, her family, to the point that she can't even acknowledge the enormity of the Northern threat. She's focused on ensuring her family's survival, everyone else be damned. And that is categorically shown as an evil thing. Saying whatever is needed to be said, making false promises, basically everything that the Jonsa fans expect from Jon is clearly and emphatically shown to be evil, to be wrong. The whole purpose of the Dragonpit scene is to bring out this contrast between Jon and Cersei - Cersei doesn't care about futile things such as honor and promises when the question is about her own family's survival, Jon however not only cares about the realm, as a whole, but he also highly values honor and takes his promises seriously. We even have Jaime Lannister (my cute nugget 💖) walk away from Cersei, whom he loves above and beyond all, because of his honor. If, after all this, Jon is shown to not have any honor at all, then...

#jonerys #jon snow #game of thrones #undercover lover #doctor who gif #because i'm an idiot

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