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flawsreached · 2 years

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𝒉𝒐𝒘 𝒅𝒐 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒏𝒆𝒆𝒅 𝒕𝒐 𝒃𝒆 𝒍𝒐𝒗𝒆𝒅

𝐓𝐚𝐫𝐥𝐚 – casually, the same way you love to breathe

You want someone who will see your favorite flower and will give it to you, without even thinking about it. You want someone who will remember all the little details about you, the things so seemingly unimportant but that matter more than you thought they did. You want someone who will still be there, thirty years down the line, holding your hand while the two of you do two separate things. You want the intimacy of being known by someone who makes you feel safe. You don't want expensive dinners or grand proposals. You want someone who will love you consistently.

𝐌𝐞𝐫𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐭𝐡 – carefully, like a gentle rain on dry earth

You've been left beaten down and by someone you really trusted and loved, so now love doesn't come easy for you. You want it to. You want to love and be loved, but you're not sure you remember how. So you need someone else to take the lead. They have to be gentle and sweet and patient. They have to watch out for you, and make sure youre doing okay, because most days you feel a little fragile, if not totslly shattered. But someone will come along who will put those pieces back together again.

𝐄𝐝𝐝𝐚𝐫𝐚 & 𝐀𝐥𝐞𝐫𝐚 – recklessly, like a horse running as fast as he can

You've been told that the way you love can never last, and that heartbreak is inevitable. But you don't want to love carefully. You want to love with reckless abandon. You want to love with everything you have, and you want to be loved the same way. You don't want them to worry about tomorrow. Make today worth living for.

tagged by: @egliedaria <3 tagging: @rivhers, @woodsmke, @northsrose, @flaysmen, @13y3 and whoever else would like to do it, you're welcome to steal!

#the painful way only meredith has experienced love out of all my girls #helman tallhart is the gentle sweet and patient man she needed in her life #𝐓𝐀𝐑𝐋𝐀 𝐕𝐘𝐑𝐖𝐄𝐋 ╱ about * ˖ ·ﾟ #𝐀𝐋𝐄𝐑𝐀 𝐕𝐘𝐑𝐖𝐄𝐋 ╱ about * ˖ ·ﾟ #𝐄𝐃𝐃𝐀𝐑𝐀 𝐓𝐀𝐋𝐋𝐇𝐀𝐑𝐓 ╱ about * ˖ ·ﾟ #𝐌𝐄𝐑𝐄𝐃𝐈𝐓𝐇 𝐓𝐀𝐋𝐋𝐇𝐀𝐑𝐓 ╱ about * ˖ ·ﾟ

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vivacissimx · 3 months

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Theon's choice not to visit Alannys was not a choice

Cannot believe it took this long for me to get around to this meta—also, feel free to read my whole spiel about Theon's father figures in Ned, Balon, and Roose here, because it does inform my view.

OK, Alannys Harlaw hours.

The conception of Theon's motivations in the situation where he does not go to see his mother when he returns to the Islands is a bit harsh on Theon. It ignores that Theon has not been avoiding Alannys all these years: he has been kept from her. Theon's access to her has always been controlled by the NedBalons in his life.

I want to get into the idea that this is not happenstance. That Theon's father figures control his access to his mother, which is not even a novel concept in ASOIAF. Jon Snow, who is Theon's foil, also has access to his mother restricted by—woah! Ned Stark as well!! (And both Jon and Theon are expected to be grateful for this too.)

Theon's homecoming to Pyke does not result in him rushing triumphant as the prodigal son into his loving mother's arms because in fact Alannys is not even on Pyke (though Theon thought she would be). Nope, it's Theon's suspicious, resentful, and yes "homophobic" uncle as well as father who Theon meets. From here it is just assumed that Theon has perfect access to Alannys, and that him not hopskipping over to Harlaw is purely his preference. (Are you catching on to the idea that I disagree with this, yet?)

Getting into Theon as a character & how he acts under suspicious/mistrustful eyes:

As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious. [ACOK, Theon I]

“What I am about to tell you must not leave this room,” she told them. “I want your oaths on that. If even part of what I suspect is true, Ned and my girls have ridden into deadly danger, and a word in the wrong ears could mean their lives.” “Lord Eddard is a second father to me,” said Theon Greyjoy. “I do so swear.” [AGOT, Catelyn III]

Ned turned back to his wife. “Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at WhiteHarbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.” [AGOT, Eddard IV]

Theon knows he is not trusted in Winterfell. Catelyn including Theon in this circle of ooh secrets is mostly due to the fact that Robb physically brought him & also because she knows that Theon does not really even have the ability to betray her on this front. He definitely knows that. Ned does not have a paternal relationship with Theon & does not perceive himself as Theon's father any more than Theon believes he is Ned's son (in the manner that Robb or Bran or even Jon is), so why does Theon lie here?

HE IS OVERPERFORMING HIS COMMITMENT TO THE PATRIARCH FIGURE IN WHOSE HANDS HIS LIFE/FUTURE LIES.

Theon predicates his vow to Catelyn with an affirmation of his willingness to do service to Ned, and in fact that's what his access to her relies on. That's probably why he makes such a production of incessantly flirting with her too; because of how it implies he is in Ned and later Robb's good graces! Of course AGOT Theon is also just a flirt for the purposes of producing his masculinity in general. But does anyone really disagree? Moving on.

The door was grey wood studded with iron, and Theon found it barred from the inside. He hammered on it with a fist, and cursed when a splinter snagged the fabric of his glove. The wood was damp and moldy, the iron studs rusted. After a moment the door was opened from within by a guard in a black iron breastplate and pothelm. "You are the son?" "Out of my way, or you'll learn who I am." [ACOK, Theon I]

(Even the damn door is in on it LOL)

Theon knelt. He had a purpose here, and might need Aeron's help to achieve it. A crown was worth a little mud and horseshit on his breeches, he supposed.

He was playing the part of a dutiful young prince for the moment, while he waited for Lord Balon to reveal the fullness of his plans. [ACOK, Theon II]

"My father gave me the command here, Uncle." "And sent me to counsel you." And to watch me. Theon dare not push matters too far with his uncle. The command was his, yes, but his men had a faith in the Drowned God that they did not have in him, and they were terrified of Aeron Damphair. [ACOK, Theon III]

THEON IS PERFORMING FOR BALON. His father doesn't approve of him and Theon is playing the part. He is making every overture and concession to obedience, or piety, that is asked of him. Balon, Aeron, Asha, even Victarion make sure he knows when he's failing—whether it's with an express disapproval or just a knowing laugh. Theon notes all of this because due to how he was raised he's extremely perceptive of how those with power over him regard him.

And Balon does not criticize Theon for not visiting Alannys.

"Will I find my sister and my lady mother at Pyke?" "You will not. [ACOK, Theon I]

Harlaw is only a day’s sail, and surely Lady Greyjoy yearns for a last sight of her son.” “Would that I could. I am kept too busy here. My father relies on me, now that I am returned. Come peace, perhaps...” [ACOK, Theon II]

Theon visiting his mother is not reliant on his own self-motivation, but on whether or not Balon grants him access to her. This is not to say Balon expressly forbade it or that there would have been any direct consequences if Theon had gone over... but it's about goodwill, not permission! What else changes between Theon asking about Alannys when he returns to Pyke and when he explicitly tells Asha that he can't go see her because Balon, because war? Simple: he needs to prove himself to his father as loyal and strong first. To make it explicit, Ned & Robb allowed Theon access to Catelyn in the same manner that Balon refuses (or, at the least, disapproves of) Theon's access to Alannys. Theon is sensitive to this disapproval and does not push the matter.

The only person who pushes Theon to go to Alannys is Asha. Asha obviously has Balon's trust, though, and it could be said she takes it for granted. Asha's level of understanding of Theon is complex; she recognizes him but she doesn't know him. When she says this:

You are blood of my blood, Theon, whatever else you may be. For the sake of the mother who bore us both, return to Deepwood Motte with me. [ACOK, Theon V]

it's actually wild how much is packed in here. For the sake of the mother who bore us both: Theon doesn't yet have the right to Alannys or even know how she'd receive him, given his other receptions on Pyke. Return to Deepwood Motte: the castle Theon believes he should have been tasked with taking above Asha, a concrete proof of his father's mistrust in him, which amongst other reasons spurs on his taking on Winterfell to begin with.

Personally I think Theon as a symbol of Balon's failed rebellion does make him, in Balon's eyes, also a symbol of his failed marriage. Theon does not confirm Baelon's masculinity as a son should, as Asha does. He is a reminder of the ways in which Balon lacks.

I also believe that Theon ~misses his mother, FWIW. He thinks back to his childhood sleeping in the Sea Tower while on his way to Pyke which is a mommy-coded memory; he expects to sleep in his old chambers again when he returns to Pyke—both that and his expectation of seeing Alannys are swiftly disabused. He will not be slipping into his old roles, Theon learns through the reunion with Balon which is violent in more ways than one. It's interesting because Theon actually expects to have to prove himself to his father (which is why he comes armed with a plan for taking Casterly Rock) but he doesn't expect to be punished for having been held hostage all these years.

If we are indulging in symbolism, though:

Above the Sea Tower snapped his father's banner. The Myraham was too far off for Theon to see more than the cloth itself, but he knew the device it bore: the golden kraken of House Greyjoy, arms writhing and reaching against a black field. The banner streamed from an iron mast, shivering and twisting as the wind gusted, like a bird struggling to take flight. And here at least the direwolf of Stark did not fly above, casting its shadow down upon the Greyjoy kraken. [ACOK, Theon I]

The Sea Tower where Theon's childhood memories & hopes for return to his family lie is dominated by his father's banner. At least it's Balon Greyjoy and not Ned Stark, Theon tells himself. Yet the result is the paralleled, mirrored, as Balon and Ned often are with Theon: under Ned's control Theon can't see Alannys because he is Balon Greyjoy's son, while under Balon's control Theon is discouraged from seeing Alannys because he isn't son enough. Perhaps Theon does prioritize the goodwill of his patriarch because he views it as an essential ingredient to his survival and success... but he's also absolutely aware of the role the wife/mother/lady/queen plays in the whole arena too. As power, as leverage. It's pretty plain when you consider that he tells Barbrey she could claim leadership over the North if she so desired. He took such pleasure in being relatively intimate with Catelyn as well.

So, he knows. Yet they're still all held above his head like a little treat. Delicious.

#theon greyjoy #alannys harlaw #ned stark #balon greyjoy #asha greyjoy #aeron greyjoy #text #meta #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #gender in asoiaf

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ladystoneboobs · 1 month

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westerosi ruling ladies/acknowledged heiresses outside of dorne, listed by region:

the north

lady jonelle cerwyn, lady of castle cerwyn after the murder of her younger brother, lord cley cerwyn, by ramsay snow. (cley did not long outlive their father, lord medger cerwyn, who died of his wounds as a pow at harrenhal, after fighting in roose bolton's host when tywin lannister defeated them on the green fork.) we first hear of lady jonelle when robb stark calls his banners and lord cerwyn means to bring his old maid daughter with him, and the next we hear of her is when asha greyjoy gets her letter from ramsay, co-signed by a lady cerwyn and lady dustin, among the other northern lords in the bolton camp. cerwyn men-at-arms and the cerwyn maester are noted with roose at wf, and presumably if their lady did go south with her father, she must have returned north in roose bolton's party.

lady barbrey ryswell dustin, widow of the late lord willam dustin, apparently the last of his line since no surviving male dustins are ever mentioned. the widow of barrowton rules in his place for the remainder of her lifetime, and (unlike poor lady hornwood) rules with power uncontested, as barrowton's closest neighbors are the ryswells, also her closest kin, father and brothers. however, without any children from the late lord dustin, unclear what would happen after lady barbrey dies.

lady lyessa flint, head of the branch of house flint of widow's watch. lady flint's son, robin flint, led their forces in robb stark's army and died with the king at the red wedding, but was not the head of house. lady flint is listed such in the appendices, and was said to be pregnant in acok, meaning she likely had a living husband at the time, but he goes unnamed as only her consort.

lady alys karstark, heir to her eldest brother harrion karstark of karhold (whose location and current status is unclear after being captured by the lannisters a 2nd time), following the deaths of their brothers in the battle of the whispering wood, and the execution of their father by king robb as a murderer and traitor. at jon snow's instigation she has taken sigorn, magnar of thenn, as her consort.

lady wynafryd manderly, elder granddaughter of lord wyman manderly, by his son and heir ser wylis. should be the next heir to white harbor after her father, unless her parents should produce a son.

lady maege mormont of bear island, the only ruling lady listed here to also have a daughter as her heir. first this was dacey mormont, but after her murder at the red wedding, the new heir is second daughter alysanne aka aly the she-bear. but since aly told asha greyjoy she had a son as well as a daughter back home, that means there likely won't be a 3rd ruling lady in a row, as the mormonts may have a history of women warriors, but there's no sign they don't still practice male-preference primogeniture when there is a son to inherit. where the mormonts do step out of northern convention, however, is the ruling ladies fucking whoever they want without feeling the need for a husband and still naming their fatherless children mormonts, not snows, a practice rhaenyra targaryen would surely envy.

lady eddara tallhart, an heiress and then nominal ruler of torrhen's square, before the age of 10, after her elder brother benfred was killed by theon greyjoy's ironmen and then their father ser helman was killed when roose bolton sent him into an ambush at duskendale. listed as still a captive inside her family's seat, besieged by dagmer cleftjaw again, in the adwd appendix.

the riverlands

lady barbara bracken, eldest daughter of lord jonos bracken of stone hedge, who has multiple daughters by two of his three different wives, but no surviving sons.

lady amarei frey lannister, married to lancel lannister at castle darry as a granddaughter of a previous lord darry, then left to rule on her own after lancel abandoned her and repudiated their unconsummated marriage

lady eleanor mooton, eldest daughter of lord william mooton of maidenpool, listed as his heir in adwd appendix, at the time of her marriage to dickon tarly. (meaning presumably his sons mentioned in acok died during the war.)

lady carellen smallwood, (likely?) heir to acorn hall as the only known surviving child of lord and lady smallwood, whose only known son died years before.

lady liane vance, eldest daughter of lord karyl vance of house vance of wayfarer's rest, listed as his heir in the affc appendix

lady shella whent, last of the line of the whents of harrenhal, disposessed by tywin lannister, and allegedly dead by the time of affc, according to littlefinger. text is somewhat inconsistent on whether she or her husband inherited harrenhal, just as it's unknown what happened to all their children if they were the same whents hosting the tourney at harrenhal years before, nor even how they were related to minisa whent tully, the late lady of riverrun.

the vale

chella, daughter of cheyk, clan chief of the black ears

lady anya waynwood, lady of ironoaks, an older lady with multiple sons and grandsons still ruling in her own name, a formidable power in the vale, perhaps second only to the main branch of house royce as chief bannermen of house arryn

the westerlands

cersei lannister, lady of casterly rock as well as queen regent, following her father, lord tywin lannister, being murdered by her younger brother tyrion, an attainted traitor and fugitive, with her twin brother, jaime, unable to inherit as a knight of the kingsguard

lady alysanne lefford, lady of the golden tooth after lord leo lefford drowned in the battle of the fords against edmure tully's army. (whether the previous lord was her father, brother, or even uncle or cousin is unknown, all we know of her is her entry in the affc/adwd appendices after lord lefford's death in asos)

the reach

lady alysanne bulwer, the lady of blackcrown as the only known child of the late lord jon bulwer, frequently referred to as lady bulwer. (lady fatherslastname not being a style otherwise used with a lord's unmarried daughters, lady housesurname usually referring to a lord's wife using her husband's name). there is an inconsistency with taena merryweather telling cersei that there was talk of megga tyrell being betrothed to lady bulwer's brother (which a nondornish heiress cannot have and is not listed in any appendix), but this is either a mistake by grrm or misunderstanding by taena unless she's referring to an unknown brother of alysanne bulwer's mother, the last lady bulwer. (i'm taking multiple mentions of her as lady bulwer in sansa's pov over any gossip from taena.)

lady arwyn oakheart, lady of old oak, a widow with multiple grown sons who commanded her own forces in renly baratheon's army, even if she did not mean to fight on the field.

the crownlands

lady ermesand hayford, the last of the hayford line, a babe ruling in name only, married to the squire tyrek lannister before she was weaned, a husband now missing since his disappearence during the riot in kl on the day of princess myrcella's departure

the ladies tanda, falyse and lollys stokeworth, three would-be rulers of castle stokeworth dispossessed by the schemes of queen cersei and ser bronn of the blackwater. lady tanda ruled for years with falyse as her heir and younger daughter lollys as the only heir to the barren falyse, until such time as lollys was wed to bronn and lady tanda took a griveous fall from a horse. bronn started calling himself lord stokeworth when tanda and falyse were still alive, chasing off falyse after her husband attempted to kill him at cersei's behest. falyse died painfully in qyburn's dungeons, while tanda was left to die at castle stokeworth, making lollys even more a ruler in name only than baby lady hayford, as her husband is inside the castle with men loyal only to him, not to any stokeworth lady.

the stormlands

lady brienne of tarth, heir to lord selwyn tarth the evenstar as his only surviving child

lady mary mertyns, listed as lady of the mistwood in the adwd appendix

you'll notice the iron islands is the only (nondornish) region missing here. ofc they did have a possible heiress to pyke and all the isles but then asha greyjoy was soundly rejected as such at the kingsmoot after balon's death. the lack of other present-tl ruling ladies/acknowledged heirs afab may be down to this being the smallest region, aside from the crownlands. however, there are no historical ruling ladies in their section of the world book either, iirc.

AND there is another case of a possible heiress, again meaning asha, wrt harlaw. her uncle lord rodrik harlaw tried to dissaude her from the kingsmoot by offering to name her heir to his castle, while allowing a cousin to inherit all his other titles and power over the whole island of harlaw. but shouldn't asha have already been in line for all the harlaw lands and titles, above all the harlaw cousins? her aunt gwynesse's complaint of being the true heir as rodrik's elder sister may not work outside of dorne, but even on the nondornish mainland, a lord's sister (and therefore their children, ie asha) still come before a lord's uncles and cousins. isn't that the whole point of alys karstark's plight, that her older cousin had to marry her to try to claim her birthright? so the harlaw line of succession should go rodrik>gwynesse>alannys>asha before any cousins come into it.

that this would not be the case and that asha is only presented with the option of being lady of ten towers by doing homage to a cousin as her overlord for the whole island of harlaw suggests imo that the islands are particularly resistant to a woman as head of house, with all male kin following her in place of a patriarch. women may serve as castle stewards and the right sort may prove themselves as captains (not common, but not too rare either) but ruling on land, ruling over male kin, and fellow captains is a different matter. perhaps not too surprising from a people whose religon sees rape of foreign women as a key and holy part of their way of life. an ironwoman may not disapprove of her men doing so, but cannot fully participate without the cock to forcibly spread seed across the world. how can a captain who cannot fully perform manhood as the drowned god proscribes for his captains be rock king over any island, let alone all of them? in this light, balon's choice of asha as heir is even more radical, though likely it came not from a view of equality between the sexes but from a feeling that his own daughter was the very much singular special exception, more a son than greendlandized theon.

#vayrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #i just like listing things #i could have listed the dornish ladies and heiresses but the point is how many there even w/o equal primogeniture #the north and riverlands prob have the postdance phenom of more female rulers from all the men killed in war but theyre also #the most developed regions by far. so the other lists being shorter is partly down to not having as many family trees there #i think some people do give the ironborn more credit than they should for their uncommon but not unheard of warrior women captains #but i think aeron and vic are meant to represent the general view wrt how far a woman can rise.#and we see their views vindicated w how quickly balon's wishes for asha as heir as disregarded after his death #what is dead may never die #asha greyjoy #rodrik harlaw #balon greyjoy #(c)lsb #cleaning out my drafts. cleaning out my drafts. hi-ho the derry-o. cleaning out my drafts.

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jackoshadows · 2 years

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The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north - Jon Snow

Arya Stark and Jon Snow’s strong attachment for each other has been forged by otherness. The only two Stark children who looked like each other, ‘the odd birds’ as GRRM puts it.

And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now - Jon, AGoT

If only she could climb like Bran, she thought; she would go out the window and down the tower, run away from this horrible place, away from Sansa and Septa Mordane and Prince Joffrey, from all of them. Steal some food from the kitchens, take Needle and her good boots and a warm cloak. She could find Nymeria in the wild woods below the Trident, and together they’d return to Winterfell, or run to Jon on the Wall. She found herself wishing that Jon was here with her now. Then maybe she wouldn’t feel so alone - Arya, AGoT

“I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. - Arya, ASoS

They associate each other with a sense of togetherness, happiness and home because growing up they are each other’s comfort zone and safe space in a world where they are made to feel as if they don’t belong. We know that Jon thinks Arya belongs with him - ‘Bring her home Mance’.

Reading their POV chapters after leaving KL, there is a sense of loneliness there - especially with Arya. She is searching, always searching, always trying to find a pack, somewhere she can belong. It’s telling that till the end of ASoS, she’s trying to get to Winterfell, Robb, Catelyn and Jon at the Wall. It’s only when the Captain of the galley refuses to take her to the Wall that she finally gives up on getting to the people she loves and decides to take passage to Braavos.

We see that Arya finds friends among the serving girls and cooks and their children because she can’t fit in with Sansa and her friends like Jeyne and Beth. Jeyne mocks and taunts her appearance and Beth has the same interests that Sansa does.

Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody - Sansa, AGoT

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. Fat Tom used to call her “Arya Underfoot,” because he said that was where she always was. She’d liked that a lot better than “Arya Horseface.” - Arya, AGoT

We don’t get much in the books about Jon’s friends in Winterfell. I am assuming this is because, unlike with Arya and Sansa, he had a good relationship with Robb. They were brothers and friends. And yet, we also see this:

“Benfred has raised his own company of lances. Boys, none older than nineteen years, but every one thinks he’s another young wolf. When I told them they were only young rabbits, they laughed at me. Now they call themselves the Wild Hares and gallop about the country with rabbitskins tied to the ends of their lances, singing songs of chivalry.”

Bran thought that sounded grand. He remembered Benfred Tallhart, a big bluff loud boy who had often visited Winterfell with his father, Ser Helman, and had been friendly with Robb and with Theon Greyjoy. - Bran, ACoK

Notice how Benfred Tallhard is friends with Robb and Theon and not with Jon Snow. I am assuming there is not much interaction between the sons of other houses and Eddard Stark’s bastard. Similarly, Alys Karstark mentions her father bringing her to Winterfell to meet Robb Stark.

“You came to Winterfell with your father.” The father Robb beheaded. “I don’t recall what for.”

She blushed. “So I could meet your brother. Oh, there was some other pretext, but that was the real reason. I was almost of an age with Robb, and my father thought we might make a match. There was a feast. I danced with you and your brother both. He was very courteous and said that I danced beautifully. You were sullen. My father said that was to be expected in a bastard.” - Jon, ADWD

I think this is why Arya and Jon are able to quickly make friends outside of lords and ladies. They don’t fit in amongst their own circle and therefore find their packs elsewhere. Jon with his brothers at the Wall and Arya with her little pack in the Riverlands.

And while Arya is too young to understand the depth of the pain that Jon feels at his social ostracization, she considers him one of their own and defends him at every turn, right from the very start of the books.

“Poor Jon,” she said, “He gets jealous because he's a bastard.”

“He's our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. - Arya, AGoT

“I did not!” she shouted. Jon Snow had given her Needle. Maybe she had to let them call her Lumpyhead, but she wasn’t going to let them call Jon a thief. - Arya, ACoK

And it’s because Jon is able to empathize with Arya’s sense of ‘not being good enough’ through circumstances beyond her own control that he is kind to her in a way that Ned and Catelyn are not. He understands her and what makes her tick. Him giving her Needle in secret (Don’t tell Sansa!) represents that understanding, an admiration and respect for Arya wanting to be who she is.

Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her." - Arya, AGoT

To compare this to a classic romance of cousins growing up together and falling in love, while Jon and Arya are vastly different to Edmund and Fanny in Mansfield Park, there’s some similarities in terms of the kindness and consideration Jon extends towards Arya. Edmund finding pen and paper for Fanny and Jon secretly getting Arya a sword. And Arya’s loyalty and love for Jon Snow mirrors the loyalty and love that Fanny has for Edmund (though Arya’s love is platonic for now and Fanny’s was romantic)

A week had passed in this way, and no suspicion of it conveyed by her quiet, passive manner, when she was found one morning by her cousin Edmund, the youngest of the sons, sitting crying on the attic stairs.

‘My dear little cousin,’ said he, with all the gentleness of an excellent nature, ‘what can be the matter?’ And sitting down by her, he was at great pains to overcome her shame in being so surprised, and persuade her to speak openly - Mansfield Park

Jon and Arya’s deep bond growing up in Winterfell defines their future relationships with other partners - romantic or otherwise. Arya and Gendry, Jon and Ygritte. Jon’s friendships with Sam and Satin. Arya being the single positive female influence during Jon’s childhood in Winterfell means that he is searching for an Arya in every girl he meets.

It's a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It's like someone who reminds you of, you know... Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn't put him off because he is used to that. - GRRM

There will be so much to look forward to, such a bubbling pot of emotions when they meet again, a resurrected, more wolfish Jon Snow and a grown up Arya Stark, changed by their life experiences. Will he still muss her hair and call her little sister? But she’s not so little anymore. He will have to call her something else. Was she ever his sister?

#Jon Snow #Arya Stark #needleheartwinter #Childhood #Outcasts and Belonging #Jonrya #Jonarya #Jon x Arya

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racefortheironthrone · 1 year

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How much of Robbs victories do you think comes from the fact he had a really excellent staff of front line officers (with himself being one of the best)? His tactics seem very reliant on the ability of his subordinates to emulate his own methods of shock attacks, since his special move is splitting up his army for near simultaneous actions at multiple points. He personally needs to be great at identifying the weakest point for the soldiers he directly commands, but so does the Greatjon, the blackfish, and any other commander leading the other fragments as far as I can tell.

Personally, I would hesitate to describe a medieval army led by feudal lords as a "staff of front line officers."

To answer your question: the only one of Robb's men I think that really describes is the Blackfish, who Robb calls "my eyes and ears." While I don't agree with those who think that the Blackfish was the brains of the operation and Robb was a mere figurehead, the Blackfish has a certain set of skills that go above and beyond the norm for a highborn man's military education. In particular, his specialization as a leader of scouts and outriders made him absolutely invaluable at the Whispering Woods, an important although less decisive officer at the Battle of the Camps, and the one man Robb trusted to hold the Riverlands for him in his absence.

When it comes to the rest of his lords - Greatjon Umber, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, Helman Tallhart, etc. - most of them are pretty conventionally competent. They can command a detachment in advance or retreat, follow orders when it comes to where and who to attack, and so forth. There is an element of interchangeability there, however. Apart from the Greatjon having something of a reputation as a juggernaut who's all about charging straight ahead, you could switch around commanders when it comes to something like Nunn's Deep or the Pendric Hills and I don't think anyone would notice.

Robb really only has difficulty with two officers, and it doesn't really come down to their "ability...to emulate his own methods of shock attacks." Edmure I've talked to death, so I'm not going to get into it here, but that came down to a matter of ability to follow orders rather than interpret them in a favorable light. And then there's Roose, where it's a matter of straight-up disloyalty and treason rather than ability - Roose is very good at killing Stark loyalists and can execute adroitly on quite devious plans when it benefits him personally.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #robb stark #the war of five kings #military leadership #military strategy #military tactics

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isefyres-archive · 1 month

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𝔄𝔡𝔡𝔢𝔡 𝔪𝔲𝔰𝔢𝔰 𝔱𝔬 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔰𝔬𝔫𝔤 𝔢𝔯𝔞:

Alyna Ashford: Lady Ashford and Current head of House Ashford after her brothers were killed during the Rebellion. With no male heirs, Alyna is heir apparent though her father is eager to get her married and she produces a male heir to make her regent instead of letting her rule over the castle instead. Alyna forces stop the advance of the rivermen into the Reach and put a stop into the invasion of the Westerlands but she is finding herself under siege and in desperation. OC.

Talla Tarly: Talla Tarly is the daughter of Lord Randyll Tarly and his wife Lady Melessa Florent. Talla and her two sisters were born in three years time in between the births of their two brothers, Samwell and Dickon Tarly. It's Talla who eventually frees Margaery cousins from her father's imprisonment after the Sept of Baelor blew up and she had to blame it on a servant to keep from being punished. Canon.

Jonelle Cerwyn: Jonelle Cerwyn is a member of House Cerwyn and is the daughter of Lord Medger Cerwyn. Jonelle accompanies her father to Winterfell when Robb Stark calls his banners. Robb tells his brother Bran that Lord Medger plans to take her south with Robb's host. Although Medger claims this is so she can cook for him, Theon Greyjoy believes that Robb will one night find her in his bed. After the deaths of her father, Medger, and her brother, Cley, Jonelle has become the Lady of Cerwyn. She is present at the Ramsay and "Arya" wedding in which she recognizes Jeyne but said nothing out of fear. Canon.

Grethe Crowl: House Crowl of Deepdown is a noble house from Deepdown on the isle of Skagos in the north. They used to be a group of advanced freefolk like the Thenns who decided to move South and take seat in Skagos. Grethe is the only daughter of the previous lord and once she learns Rickon was in Skagos she sent a search party to keep him safe. However, her forces were overwhelmed by Bolton's and Rickon taken prisoner and her under lockdown in hero wn castle. OC.

Larence Snow: Larence Snow is the natural son of Lord Halys Hornwood. He is under the guardianship of Galbart Glover, Master of Deepwood Motte. He has a half-brother, Daryn Hornwood. After the death of Lord Halys Hornwood and his trueborn son, Daryn, many parties have started competing to inherit the title of Lord of Hornwood. In discussions at Winterfell during the harvest feast, Larence is seen as a possible candidate, an idea supported by Bran Stark as Larence reminds Bran of his own half-brother, Jon Snow. Larence is presumably freed from captivity by Stannis Baratheon after Asha's ironmen are defeated in the fight by Deepwood Motte. He is still pressumed the heir of Hornwood. Canon.

Brandon Tallhart is a member of House Tallhart. He is the eldest son of Leobald Tallhart and Berena Hornwood. Brandon is held captive at Torrhen's Square by the ironmen, alongside his mother, Berena Hornwood, his younger brother Beren, and his uncle's daughter Eddara. When free from captivity, Brandon supports his cousin Eddara as the new lady of House Tallhart and support the attack on Winterfell to reclaim it for the Starks. Canon.

Eddara Tallhart is the daughter of Ser Helman Tallhart. After the deaths of her father, Helman, and elder brother, Benfred, Eddara becomes the Lady of Torrhen's Square. Eddara is held captive by the ironmen at Torrhen's Square, following its capture by Dagmer. While she holds Theon Greyjoy responsible for what he did to the Starks and the ironborn invasion, she has it in her heart to set it aside as she was a good friend with Jeyne Poole as a child and the girl had said he was the only thing that kept her sane while imprisoned. Canon.

Justin Massey is a knight from House Massey, and a queen's man. The fair knight has a neatly-trimmed blond beard. His tunic displays the triple spiral of House Massey. Stannis Baratheon refers to Justin as "the smiler", and Clayton Suggs considers him a "prancing fool". Justin once squired for Robert Baratheon, from whom it is said he acquired his appetite for women. Justin is among the knights who go north to the Wall with Stannis, to defend the Seven Kingdoms from the free folk army of Mance Rayder. Justin Massey persues Asha Greyjoy into a marriage during his time at the Wall and under Stannis' army. When the battle is lost, he retreats into the North. Canon.

Freyia Knott: House Knott is a mountain clan in the north. In Winterfell, the head of the mountain clan are addressed by the title "Lord Knott" but their clan folk call them "The Knott". The clan lives in the hills and mountains north of the wolfswood. King Stannis Baratheon travels to the northern mountains, gaining many clans for his fight by Deepwood Motte and march on Winterfell. Formerly as well as house Crowl, freefolk who bend the knee, the clan still take some freefolk ways and seeing the wieldings follow Jon Snow into battle, Freyia decides to pledge herself to his cause as well. OC.

Irri: Irri is a Dothraki handmaid to Daenerys Targaryen. She and Jhiqui are of an age with Daenerys Targaryen. Irri was born to a khal of a khalasar. It was destroyed by Khal Drogo, and she was enslaved. Irri, Doreah, and Jhiqui are given to Daenerys Targaryen by Viserys Targaryen as wedding gifts to serve as her handmaids. She is given to Daenerys to teach her how to ride horses in the Dothraki style. She stays with Daenerys, even after the death of Khal Drogo and the disintegration of his khalasar. Irri becomes a paramour to the lonely Daenerys for a time. Irri accompanies Daenerys to Daznak's Pit as part of the royal procession. She and Jhiqui both depart Meereen as part of the search parties dispatched across the Skahazadhan to locate Daenerys after she disappears on Drogon's back. Canon.

#artwork╲ houses › mutuals can interact.

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allovesthings · 2 years

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“Once you are home, send words to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal.They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin.Two hundred determined archers can hold the neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor and see that they are well manned.And from this day on, i want a careful watch over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet”.

This entire passage just show how smart Ned is.I truly believe that, it’s not that Ned is bad at politicking in general but that he is just not used to the politics of the south which are different from the politics and traditions of the north. he doesn’t know those people in the way he knows the Lords of the North. He would know not to trust Bolton for exemple but he doesn’t have that knowledge of the people in the council like Varys or Littlefinger..

#asoiaf #asoiaf reread #Ned Stark #Eddard Stark #Catelyn Stark #ned's first chapter in king's landing #a song of ice and fire

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asongofsilks · 2 years

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ASOIAF FANCASTING --> EVERY NAMED FEMALE CHARACTER ABOVE THE AGE OF FIVE, PART XVIII

Doreah (278-299 AC): Handmaiden to Daenerys Targaryen, a slave given to her after her marriage to Khal Drogo. She instructs Dany in the arts of love. After Drogo dies and Dany leads her tiny khalasar into the red waste, Doreah dies of a wasting illness. Fancast: Bonnie Sveen.

Dorna Swyft (b. approx. 250 AC): Daughter of Ser Harys Swyft of Cornfield, and wife to Kevan Lannister, younger brother of Lord Tywin. They have four children together, including Lancel. Fancast: Jennifer Morrison.

Doshi (lived during the Century of Blood from 102 BC up to Aegon’s Conquest): A witch queen and the mother of Khal Mengo, a Dothraki warlord who united all the Dothraki under his command. Fancast: Amira Ghazalla.

Druselka (era of Valyrian conquest): A priestess who took part in the migration of the Rhoynar under Princess Nymeria. After the Rhoynar left the Summer Isles, she convinced her followers that she had heard Mother Rhoyne calling them home, and they should return to their cities. Unfortunately, all they found upon their return were the Valyrian conquerors who hunted them down and enslaved them. Fancast: Tonantzin Carmelo.

Dyah (main series era): One of Craster's wives; she helps Sam and Gilly escape the mutiny of the Night's Watch at Craster's Keep. Fancast: Soo Drouet.

Dyanna Dayne (c. 175-205 AC): Wife of Prince Maekar, fourth son of King Daeron the Good, who later became king as Maekar I. They had six children, including Daeron the Drunken, Aerion Brightflame, Maester Aemon, and Aegon the Unlikely. She died shortly after the birth of her youngest child, Rhae. Fancast: Katie McGrath.

Eddara Tallhart (b. 290 AC): Daughter of Helman Tallhart of Torrhen's Square. Her father is killed in battle in the War of the Five Kings, and her brother Benfred is slain by the ironmen, making her the Lady of Torrhen's Square. She is currently a captive of Dagmer Cleftjaw. Fancast: Brooklynn Prince.

Septa Edyth (c. 36-60 AC): As a novice, she was sent to Dragonstone to try and discourage the marriage between Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne. However, Alysanne quickly won her and the other septas over to her side, and she became a devoted friend of hers, even defending the queen when she was attacked at Maidenpool. She died of the Shivers. Fancast: Elizabeth Blackmore.

Septa Eglantine (main series era): She accompanies Princess Myrcella Baratheon on her voyage to Dorne to meet her betrothed, Prince Trystane Martell, the youngest son of the ruling Prince Doran. She helps protect the princess by disguising her. Fancast: Amber Chaney.

Elaena Targaryen (b. approx. 100 BC): Eldest daughter of Daenys the Dreamer and Gaemon the Glorious, the Targaryen rulers of Dragonstone. She was married to her brother, Aegon, and ruled by his side after their parents. Fancast: Eliza Taylor.

#asoiaf fancast #valyrianscrolls #dyanna dayne #eddara tallhart #septa edyth #septa eglantine #elaena daughter of gaemon #dyah #druselka of the rhoyne #doshi of the dothraki #dorna swyft #doreah #asoiaf fashion #allfancasts

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mrsjadecurtiss · 5 years

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The northern lords (and some masters) prior to a Game of Thrones (Not a complete list, just the houses from the graphic in The World of Ice and Fire + house cerwyn)

from left to right: rodrik ryswell, galbart glover, wyman manderly, barbrey dustin, greatjon umber, howland reed, ned stark, rickard karstark, maege mormont, helman tallhart, roose bolton, halys hornwood, medger cerwyn

Tried to research as best as i could, mostly based on the wiki and asearchoficeandfire. Sorry for any mistakes, it’s a lot of characters...

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #the north #ned stark #howland reed #maege mormont #greatjon umber #roose bolton #wyman manderly #barbrey dustin #medger cerwyn #halys hornwood #galbart glover #helman tallhart #rickard karstark #rodrik ryswell #my art #THIS TOOK SO LONG

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thereignofqueens · 7 years

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Northern Houses (Part 6/13): House Tallhart

#northern houses #house tallhart #proud and free #helman tallhart #eddara tallhart #a song of ice and fire

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asoiafreadthru · 1 year

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EDDARD STARK, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North,

His wife, LADY CATELYN, of House Tully,

Their children:

ROBB, the heir to Winterfell, fourteen years of age,

SANSA, the eldest daughter, eleven,

ARYA, the younger daughter, a girl of nine,

BRANDON, called Bran, seven,

RICKON, a boy of three,

His bastard son, JON SNOW, a boy of fourteen,

His ward, THEON GREYJOY, heir to the Iron Islands,

His siblings:

[BRANDON], his elder brother, murdered by the command of Aerys II Targaryen,

[LYANNA], his younger sister, died in the mountains of Dorne,

BENJEN, his younger brother, a man of the Night’s Watch,

His household:

MAESTER LUWIN, counselor, healer, and tutor,

VAYON POOLE, steward of Winterfell,

JEYNE, his daughter, Sansa’s closest friend,

JORY CASSEL, captain of the guard,

HALLIS MOLLEN, DESMOND, JACKS, PORTHER, QUENT, ALYN, TOMARD, VARLY, HEWARD, CAYN, WYL, guardsmen,

SER RODRIK CASSEL, master-at-arms, Jory’s uncle,

BETH, his young daughter,

SEPTA MORDANE, tutor to Lord Eddard’s daughters,

SEPTON CHAYLE, keeper of the castle sept and library,

HULLEN, master of horse,

His son, HARWIN, a guardsman,

JOSETH, a stableman and horse trainer,

FARLEN, kennelmaster,

OLD NAN, storyteller, once a wet nurse,

HODOR, her great-grandson, a simpleminded stableboy,

GAGE, the cook,

MIKKEN, smith and armorer,

His principal lords bannermen:

SER HELMAN TALLHART,

RICKARD KARSTARK, Lord of Karhold,

ROOSE BOLTON, Lord of the Dreadfort,

JON UMBER, called the Greatjon,

GALBART and ROBETT GLOVER,

WYMAN MANDERLY, Lord of White Harbor,

MAEGE MORMONT, the Lady of Bear Island.

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flawsreached · 2 years

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the best thing abt meredith is how easily she fits into the north. unlike some spoilt reachwomen (cough lynesse hightower cough) , she knew marrying helman tallhart would take her away from the frivolity & wealth of the reach & she loved it. she makes no effort to demand her husband and his household cater to her every whim & she takes all measures necessary to learn the ways of the north respectively.

#conversion 2 the old gods? oh yes 100%#𝐌𝐄��𝐄𝐃𝐈𝐓𝐇 𝐓𝐀𝐋𝐋𝐇𝐀𝐑𝐓 ╱ about * ˖ ·ﾟ

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selkiewife · 2 years

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Theon Month 2022 || Theon and House Stark

In which I count the amount of times Theon Greyjoy and Ned Stark think about each other using A Search of Ice and Fire (an extremely normal thing to do.)

Theon thinks of Ned (or “Lord Eddard” or “Lord Stark”) 52 times (some of the most notable ones are below):

As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

Gevin Harlaw knelt on a dead man's chest, sawing off his finger to get at a ring. Paying the iron price. My lord father would approve. Theon thought of seeking out the bodies of the two men he'd slain himself to see if they had any jewelry worth the taking, but the notion left a bitter taste in his mouth. He could imagine what Eddard Stark would have said. Yet that thought made him angry too. Stark is dead and rotting, and naught to me, he reminded himself.

(About Dagmer) He gave me more smiles than my father and Eddard Stark together.

"I am no Stark." Lord Eddard saw to that. "I am a Greyjoy, and I mean to be my father's heir. How can I do that unless I prove myself with some great deed?"

...there had been a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark's own bed.

Theon told himself he must be as cold and deliberate as Lord Eddard. "Rouse the castle," he said. "Herd them out into the yard, everyone, we'll see who's missing. And have Lorren make a round of the gates. Wex, with me."

As he knelt to the block, the kennelmaster said, "M'lord Eddard always did his own killings." Theon had to take the axe himself or look a weakling. His hands were sweating, so the shaft twisted in his grip as he swung and the first blow landed between Farlen's shoulders. It took three more cuts to hack through all that bone and muscle and sever the head from the body, and afterward he was sick, remembering all the times they'd sat over a cup of mead talking of hounds and hunting... Ned Stark had never needed more than a single blow to take a man's head.

~ A Clash of Kings

He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard Stark might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fancy.

This is where they found Bran when he fell. Theon had been out hunting that day, riding with Lord Eddard and King Robert, with no hint of the dire news that awaited them back at the castle.

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children.

~ A Dance with Dragons

Ned thinks of Theon, 2 times:

Ned had last seen the king nine years before during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, when the stag and the direwolf had joined to end the pretensions of the self-proclaimed King of the Iron Islands. Since the night they had stood side by side in Greyjoy's fallen stronghold, where Robert had accepted the rebel lord's surrender and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward, the king had gained at least eight stone.

Ned turned back to his wife. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."

~ A Game of Thrones

So much for the idea that Ned saw Theon as a son. Now, this is not intended to be critical of Ned Stark. Much has already been written about how Ned kept Theon at an emotional distance, so that it would be easier if he had to take his head. Theon even says as much:

Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them. He was kind to me, but never warm. He knew that one day he might need to put me to death.

~ A Dance with Dragons

But it did strike me just how much Ned figures in Theon’s thoughts. And the various ways in which he does. Theon mourns how cold and distant he was. He mentions Ned taking Theon with him when he went on trips (most likely because Theon was his squire.) Theon compares himself to Ned and tries to live up to what Ned would have expected of him- even when he is taking his castle (lol.) There is also the epic line about having Kyra in Eddard Stark’s bed- but I notice that he always refers to the bed as Ned Stark’s bed. Even when he is not trying to spite his memory. He constantly refers to Ned Stark’s bed, Ned Stark’s chambers, Ned Stark’s solar, etc. Even though he could be calling it his own at that point. And he even wonders what Ned would think of him when he is raiding... and then gets angry with himself for caring what he would think and tries to tell himself that Ned doesn’t matter to him.

The amount of influence that Ned has on Theon’s worldview and the fact that he aspires to be like him is heartbreaking. Heartbreaking because of the layers of this. There is such a painful tension that is created by Ned Stark being such an objectively good man and role model and yet also objectively hurting Theon tremendously because of the circumstances the hostage contract that confines them both.

#theonmonth2022 #theon greyjoy #theon meta #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #posting this really late lol

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alleyskywalker · 2 years

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(THEON MONTH | Day 12: House Stark}

An interesting little thing I wanted to talk about… it’s widely accepted as canon that Catelyn both dislikes and distrusts Theon. Now, we can maybe make the argument that she doesn’t particularly like him – at least she seems to find him kind of obnoxious with all his smug smiles she doesn’t understand and grandiose posturing. But does she really distrust him?

I think this assumption comes from three passages, primarily. First of all, Theon’s own POV in Clash:

—ACOK, Theon I

Theon here is being a little bitter about all the Starks, save Robb, and while the overall trajectory of his feelings about them is likely genuine, Theon does tend to dramatize a bit. Cat, anyway, is generally a somewhat suspicious and distant person, especially to someone who she’s not particularly fond of. But also, we do have someone to compare Theon with here. Is there a person we know Cat sincerely dislikes and distrust? Yup. Jon. And I don’t think its controversial to say that she treats Jon a lot worse than we ever see her treat Theon.

Here's the second passage that gets quoted in connection to this is from Cat’s own POV:

She studied Theon Greyjoy's sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.

—ACOK, Catelyn I

She doesn’t like his smiling and she reads them as sly. Of course, Cat isn’t the only person to regard Theon’s joking and smiling as weird, unsettling, inappropriate or confusing. Does the fact that she reads them as sly or like he knows something secret indicate her being suspicious of him? In the absence of any other context, maybe.

But Cat never actually displays real distrust toward Theon. She has no objection to him being on Robb’s war councils. She has no objection to him being a messenger between Robb’s camp and the Blackfish’s outriders, nor the fact that he’s one of those outriders. She never seeks to exclude him from Robb’s inner circle. In fact, she does the exact opposite.

These are the members of her super-secret meeting about her suspicions regarding Bran’s attempted murder:

"Robb arrived before her food. Rodrik Cassel came with him, and her husband’s ward Theon Greyjoy, and lastly Hallis Mollen, a muscular guardsman with a square brown beard. He was the new captain of the guard, Robb said.”

—AGOT, Catelyn III

Maester Lewin will join them in a moment as well. So, her son, the maester, the captain of the guard, the master-at-arms/castellan…and Theon. Like if anyone is superfluous here, it’s Theon, but she has no objection to including him whatsoever, nor does her POV indicate for a moment that maybe he should be there.

Later, when Cat is telling Robb off for not giving the command of the host that’s going to war to free her husband, she offers the following possible candidates for command:

"No one?" she said. "Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart … you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice."

—AGOT, Catelyn VIII

Theon’s not her first or even third choice, sure, but that’s clearly about experience and not trust, given that Theon is a nineteen year old lad whose never fought in a battle, not to mention led men into one, unlike all of these other seasoned lords.

But what about Pyke? That’s the third major passage that tends to be quote, Cat’s opposition to sending Theon to Pyke. You know, this one:

Catelyn ignored that. “I’ll say again, I would sooner you sent someone else to Pyke, and kept Theon close to you.”

“Who better to treat with Balon Greyjoy than his son?”

“Jason Mallister,” offered Catelyn. “Tytos Blackwood. Stevron Frey. Anyone… but not Theon.”

—ACOK, Catelyn I

That’s the part that’s usually quoted, but here’s the rest of that conversation:

Her son squatted beside Grey Wind, ruffling the wolf’s fur and incidentally avoiding her eyes. “Theon’s fought bravely for us. I told you how he saved Bran from those wildlings in the wolfswood. If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.”

“You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.”

“He’s been a hostage half his life.”

“For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.”

—ACOK, Catelyn I

The person Cat doesn’t trust, first and foremost, is Balon. Cat doesn’t think Theon’s a good choice to treat with Balon not because she’s expecting Theon to turn on them, but because she thinks he has more utility as a hostage. It may be that Cat senses the immense conflict of interest possibly looming here as well. She’s older and wiser than Robb, after all (even if he rarely deigns to actually listen to her). But she’s throwing out her best arguments and she never quite brings this up explicitly, and to the extent she does, it’s Balon and his political ambitions that she’s concerned about. Cat’s thought process is basically: Balon can’t be trusted to not have some crazy political aspirations and do god knows what > the best way to keep Balon in line is to have something hanging over him like the life of his son > any competent lord could negotiate a treaty > thus Theon is best kept close to keep him away from Balon’s possible plotting and as a bargaining chip to boot. Any distrust Cat has here is just a healthy understanding of how someone (any person, really, this isn’t Theon-specific) might be tempted to…you know…align with their own family in their plans. But that’s more subtextual, a “sense of discomfort” type of thing. The actual distrust is aimed at Balon. The argument isn’t “Theon isn’t trustworthy” it’s “Theon is more useful here.”

And, really, in a way, Cat here is just following Ned’s advice from back in AGOT:

When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."

—AGOT, Eddard IV

Cat never shows any elevated distrust or suspicion toward Theon than she does toward anyone else who she’s not specifically close to, really. Even on the opposite, she displays a significant amount more trust than you’d expect of someone to have toward their hostage. Even after she gets news that Theon has “killed” Bran and Rickon, her reaction isn’t “I knew it!” it’s this:

"Bran and Rickon tried to escape, but were taken at a mill on the Acorn Water. Theon Greyjoy has mounted their heads on the walls of Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy, who ate at my table since he was a boy of ten." I have said it, gods forgive me. I have said it and made it true.

—ACOK, Catelyn VII

It’s surprise, bewilderment, outrage of a sort, but it’s not vindication. She didn’t see this coming. The why is an expansive enough topic that it would properly deserve a post of its own. I’m not going to prove up this thesis in this post, but I’ll say that Cat is just another example of the shocking amount of entitlement that the Starks specifically and Northerners generally feel in regards to having Theon’s loyalty. And it’s probably why Theon doesn’t feel entirely trusted by them – it’s not real trust, born out of respect and/or affection, the notion to distrust him just doesn’t seem to fully enter their minds even when it’s a reasonable question to ask, because they feel so secure in the idea that Theon must be loyal to them, that they deserve that loyalty. But again, that’s a post for another day, I’ll just say that Cat is really not an exception.

I’ll close this with a little observation that’s a bit tangential but related. When Cat argues with Robb about legitimizing Jon, while it’s easy to side with Robb against her emotionally because her treatment and distrust of Jon are so unfair, she’s not actually wrong in what she says. And she’s asking Robb to not make the same mistake they all made – to put trust into loyalty that has been assumed for no good reason, ignoring all conflicts of interest for the sake of righteousness:

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? . . . Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

"So you pray. . . .”

—ASOS, Catelyn V

Robb is, as usual, not listening. Cat isn’t even talking about Jon to begin with. She’s talking about his sons. Who know one knows what they’d be like, and it would be insane to put blind trust in them and their theoretical goodness and family attachment. It’s Robb who starts talking about Jon. And Cat has a point here too, though Robb doesn’t want to hear it: you think Jon is not like Theon, but you also never thought Theon would do what he did. How blinded are you, Robb? By love? By righteousness? By how you believe things are supposed to be? No one thought Theon would turn. Not even Cat, who didn’t like his smiles and thought he made a better hostage than negotiator.

She’s always been unfair to Jon, of course. But can we blame her for being paranoid now, when she’s learned the hard way that assuming loyalty for theoretical, self-righteous reasons is folly?

#theonmonth2022 #theon greyjoy #catelyn stark #meta #asoiaf #op

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jackoshadows · 1 year

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Sorry if this sounds stupid, I've only seen the show, but i wanna know, does jon in books have all the same education as his half siblings? I mean does he have the education to be a good king of the North, like Robb? Or did he receive different and somewhat lacking education due to being a bastard? Would bastards be even allowed to have the same education as a trueborn son like robb who is set to rule in future? Or would educating jon in the best possible manner be seen as threat to his trueborn siblings, and thus be seen as unusual for Ned to allow it?

Ned was determined to have Jon and Robb grow up as brothers and for the most part treated them equally. Jon therefore got the same education as Robb. In Arya's POV chapters when she recollects her father's teaching she is always remembering him teaching both Robb and Jon. Jon's ADwD arc of being Lord Commander is littered with 'My father said this' and 'My father said that'. Jon would have studied under Maester Luwin and learned the sword from Ser Rodrik Cassel and probably Ned Stark himself.

There were some exceptions considering Robb Stark was the future Warden of the North and Jon Snow was ... Well, Ned never discusses with Jon what he intends for him until Ned has to leave for KL and his wife wants Jon out of Winterfell - leaving the only option as the NW.

But yes,

Jon was taken aback. It was true, Lord Eddard had often made Robb part of his councils back at Winterfell. Could Sam be right? Even a bastard could rise high in the Night’s Watch, they said. - Jon, AGoT

Clearly Robb was included in councils with some of the other Northern houses. Councils from which Jon was most probably excluded because he is a bastard. Catelyn was most probably in attendance in these councils as well and Jon being there would be an insult to her and house Tully.

Bran remembers the young son of House Tallhart socializing and being friends with Robb and Theon, not Jon.

Alys Karstark mentions her father wanting her to dance with Robb so that some kind of marriage alliance could happen. Robb Stark as future Warden was favored by all. The sons and daughters of other houses would surely be seeking him out. On the other hand what worth is there in being friends with the bastard?

So yes, at the top levels Robb did get exposure to councils and get to form relationships with other houses, while such was denied to Jon. I would think in everything else, they got the same education.

#asks

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