#Evan disagrees with the suggestion vehemently. | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

musette22 · 3 years

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Hi Minnie! Hope you can help me settle an argument my brother and I are having about EG!Steve. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this with shipping goggles off, looking at it purely in terms of characterization, narrative, and good writing. Better hang on though, it's going to be a long ask! (sorry in advance for spamming you!) 1/7

So my brother and I were watching FatWS and once again got into a debate about whether Steve's last actions were a disservice or in line with his characterization and narrative, given that the Russos confirmed (and therefore it's Word of God/canon, even if it did sound reactionary to the immediate backlash after EG) that Steve created an alternate reality when he went back, and didn't just live in hiding in the past of the OG timeline. 2/7

Because of this, my bro argued that: 1) the total character assassination that is the idea of Steve just sitting back and letting all the shit happen happen is no longer a problem - for all we know, the alternate reality oldman!Steve came from might have become utopic already due to his presence and foresight. He played coy when talking to Sam so we don't know for certain he didn't save Bucky, get rid of Hydra, and enact social reform when he had the chance. 3/7

Likewise, 2) the accusation that Steve would rob Peggy of her husband and children is a non-issue as Steve went back to a time before Peggy and Daniel got together - I argued here that it was still wrong for him to do given that he KNEW for a fact that Peggy lived a happy life, whereas it was a gamble if he could give her the same. My bro shot back when you truly loved someone, you want them to be happy and to have what's best for them. 4/7

So if Steve chose to go back to Peggy, he had to have believed that he could give her the best life. That Steve based that decision purely on his own assessment is pretty in character (e.g. pushing to become a soldier because he thought that was how he could do his part, even though at the time, he'd have just been a danger to himself and other soldiers; not signing the Accords because he believed in his team's judgment in crises above gov't oversight that might be influenced by politics). 5/7

And lastly 3) he might have settled into the past and started to move on, but what was wrong with him choosing to be selfish and going to the past when given a chance? Why was it wrong for him to go back to a time he knew, where he was beloved by both Peggy and the public, and when he could also save Bucky early? In terms of character growth, wouldn't it be fair for him to finally learn he could be a bit selfish and choose happiness, after a lifetime of nearly suicidal selflessness? 6/7

Our debate was based on confirmed canon with shipping put aside. So I put forth the sin of leaving a traumatized Bucky, Sam, and world behind, that Steve's actions were surely the result of a man broken by grief again and again, and that choosing the past was him running away - which, I argued, was a horrible way to end his character arc. But my brother asked me why I thought so, because wasn't this the so-called 'soft epilogue' that Steve deserved, one that was most in line with canon? 7/7

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Hey love! Very interesting argument you and your brother are having here… I’m sure he’s a great guy but I have to say that I vehemently disagree with him (as you probably already guessed lol). Soooo many people have done an excellent job at explaining why, shipping aside, Steve’s ending in EG was absolute bollocks, and I’m certain I could never argue this case as well as all of them have. Nevertheless, I’ll do my best to explain why, in my opinion, your brother is wrong :p I’m going to put my reply under the keep reading tag, because it is long.

1. The Russos and Markus & McFeely (the writers) never managed to agree on whether Steve really did go back to an alternate timeline, and if so, how that would have worked, exactly. When they were asked, after EG had been released, about whether Steve would have just sat back and let everything he knew was happening/going to happen in the decades to come, both to Bucky and to the world at large, they came up with this ‘alternate timeline’ solution, but they kept contradicting each other on the logistics and technicalities of it (like how would old man Steve suddenly be able to jump timelines to come back to give Sam the shield in EG? And how did EG Steve attend Peggy’s funeral, like they also suggested, which would technically have been in a different timeline?). Which makes it pretty clear that this wasn’t something they’d considered beforehand or even all agree on afterwards, and therefore it can’t technically allowed to play a role in judging the rightness of Steve’s ending in EG if we’re looking at it from a ‘the creator’s word is law’ perspective. Moreover, there is nothing to indicate in EG itself that Steve knew he’d be able to create alternate timelines, so that would’ve been a crazy gamble on his part. Also, him ‘playing coy’ in that final scene with Sam really isn’t a convincing indication that he was actually, canonically, talking about anything besides marrying Peggy.

2. Which bring us to point two: Peggy had literally told Steve she’d lived a happy life with her family, and told him in no uncertain terms to move on. If Steve really loved her, he would have accepted her wishes and allowed her the dignity of her choice (something Peggy herself, in CA:TFA, had told Steve was important to do when you care about someone) to move on from him once she believed him dead. Steve deciding that he would be better for Peggy because he believed was a better man than the person she ended up marrying originally would be the most un-like Steve thing to do, ever. Steve has never once shown that he thinks of himself as the hero or better than other people – he simply wants to do the best he can to help make the world a better place. He would never say “Peggy deserves the best and I believe I am the best, therefore she will have me, regardless of what she thinks or wants.” Steve drinks respect women juice, that’s clear from all of his movies, and deciding the course of her entire life for her, taking away her agency, whether in his own timeline or another, would be utterly disrespectful to Peggy.

3. As for the next point: of course there’s nothing wrong with Steve being selfish for once – Steve is human, and all humans are selfish sometimes, and that’s okay. But, as Chris Evans already explained multiple times prior to Endgame, Steve had already made selfish decisions in the past, namely when it came to getting Bucky back and keeping him safe. Shipping aside, Bucky was presented in all the Cap movies as Steve’s very best friend, and was even called his ‘soulmate’ (platonically or otherwise) by M&M (the writers). So when, in Civil War, Steve was presented with a choice between duty/what was expected of him by the government versus saving Bucky/keeping Bucky safe, Steve was selfish and chose Bucky. That, canonically, made sense. Peggy being presented as the ultimate love of Steve’s life, who he loved and valued more than anyone or anything else in the world (which is what happened in EG), canonically does not make sense.

In CA:TWS, Peggy told Steve to move on. When Peggy died, Steve buried her and mourned her, and then not long after, he canonically kissed Peggy’s niece. Then, in Infinity War, Steve saw Bucky turn to dust before his very eyes in the “Blip” (a conscious decision on the writers’/directors’ part to show how Steve once again lost what was most important to him while helplessly standing by) – and the next thing we know, Steve is leading a support group for other people who lost loved ones in the Blip, and starts talking about losing… Peggy? Huh. Also, Steve going back to a time which your brother calls “a time when he was beloved the public” doesn’t add up, either: technically, Steve went back to a time where people loved an idea of him, but also believed him to be dead. So either he would have had to have found a way to convincingly stage his own resurrection (meanwhile possibly leaving the other version to vegetate in the ice..? depending on how this timeline malarkey was supposed to work), or he would have lived his whole life hidden behind some fake persona – which does not sound like Steve at all, does it?

4. Finally, let’s talk about Bucky some more, because I think we need to to be able to assess the situation properly. I understand that your brother may believe that shippers are often delusional and only see what they want to see etc, but there is ample evidence, canonically, of Bucky being the most important person in Steve’s life – the person he would give up the shield for, the person he would give up his other friendships for, the person he would give up his life for. Peggy may have been a recurring character in character in the three Cap movies, but she was never presented as the principal motivator of his actions, or as the love of Steve’s life. You know who was? Bucky. Sure, that love wasn’t canonically romantic in nature, but there can’t be any doubt that Bucky meant more than anything to Steve. Therefore, Steve choosing to have a ‘soft epilogue’ that entails him spending the rest of his life without Bucky – and, more importantly, Bucky to spend the rest of his life without Steve – contradicts everything we’ve learned about their relationship (platonic or otherwise) in the rest of the movies, does it not?

Also, the Russos have said something to the effect that Bucky and Steve were now both mentally ‘well enough’ to not ‘need’ each other anymore (because as we all know, that’s exactly how friendships work…), but it’s pretty clear from EG that Steve was still traumatized by everything he’d been through, and going back to the 50s would have meant he would never be able to get proper help with that and in fact could only talk about any of it with Peggy and Peggy alone. Moreover, M&M have literally said in interviews that Bucky wasn’t all that well yet, mentally, and TFAWTS also shows convincingly that Bucky was not actually in a good place when Steve left him. So that would have meant that Steve either did not see this (unlikely, given how close they were) or did not care (unlikely, given how close they were).

It would have meant that for the first time in all these movies, Steve decided “to hell with Bucky’s needs, I’m gonna just be selfish because I’ve earned it and claim my trophy wife because actually I am the best man for her, despite the fact that she’s already lived a happy life that I will be negating against her wishes, but that’s fine because maybe I’ll be able to create a different timeline, and maybe I’ll be able to save Bucky from all his trauma anyway, but then again maybe not, but that brings me back to my first point of to hell with Bucky’s needs” - which does not make a lot of sense to me, personally. Not to mention that, in exchange for his ‘soft epilogue’, Steve would also leave the world to sort out the post-Blip mess without him, and leave all the other friends he still had left and clearly cared about a lot to boot. I would not call that character growth, I would call that character disintegration. If your brother insists on taking the creator’s word as gospel and that we have to accept that Steve really did do what he did at the end of Endgame, and that wasn’t just a case of bad, lazy writing fuelled by greed, then to make a decision like this, Steve would have been either an asshole in disguise all along, or mentally extremely unstable.

There you have it, my two cents! I hope this helps a little in settling the argument with your brother, anon! Lots of love ❤️

#anti endgame #steve rogers #minnie answers #Anonymous

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isidar-mithrim · 5 years

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{The first meeting between Lily, her boyfriend James Potter, and the engaged couple, went badly, and the relationship nose-dived from there. James was amused by Vernon, and made the mistake of showing it. Vernon tried to patronise James, asking what car he drove. James described his racing broom. Vernon supposed out loud that wizards had to live on unemployment benefit. James explained about Gringotts, and the fortune his parents had saved there, in solid gold. Vernon could not tell whether he was being made fun of or not, and grew angry. The evening ended with Vernon and Petunia storming out of the restaurant, while Lily burst into tears and James (a little ashamed of himself) promised to make things up with Vernon at the earliest opportunity. – ‘Vernon and Petunia Dursley’ – Pottermore}

Yes, we have all these informations... but how exactly the famous dinner between the two couples went? ^^

__________________________________

The first (and last) Dursley-Evans-Potter double date

“James… I’m warning you” Lily admonished for the umpteenth time.

“Don’t worry, love” he grinned. “You know people can’t help adoring me.”

She flashed him an exasperated look, then grabbed his hand and spun on the spot to Disapparate.

They ended up in a dark alley near the restaurant and after checking they were indeed alone, James removed the Invisibility Cloak.

“Give it there, I’ll put in in my purse” said Lily, outstretching a hand.

“Nah, I’ll keep it.”

“And where exactly do you plan to stick it, since you don’t have robes to hide it?”

“Easy” said James with a knowing smirk, tapping his temple. “In my pocket.”

“Oh, silly of me to think it wouldn’t fit” said Lily with sarcasm.

“Indeed” grinned James, effortlessly shoving the Cloak in the pocket while looking smugly at her.

“Of course you were going to use an illegal Extension Charm” she muttered, but he’d have bet that she was secretly amused.

“Well, it didn’t seem like a great idea to walk around with my wand sticking out from my pocket or, worst, without my wand. I did thought about wearing cow-boy boots to hide it, but then again, I’m not so sure Petunia would have appreciated my outfit.”

Lily frowned at him and her intimidating tactic may have worked, if James wasn’t so smitten by her shining eyes to forget her annoyed expression.

He gave her a sudden peck on the lips hoping it could sooth her nerves a bit, and when she finally dared a smile he took her arm and walked her to the restaurant.

“Damn, I should have kept the Cloak” James muttered when they got close to the entrance. “I could have sneaked up that fat dude and made him startle” he added with dreamy delight, pointing at the heavy man’s back.

“You know… I think that’s Vernon” whispered Lily, hastily elbowing James when he giggled shamelessly.

“Ok, ok, I’ll calm down” he promised, surprisingly managing to actually compose himself. “But I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bigger ass… except Hagrid and yours, of course” he winked.

It was Lily’s turn to giggle, this time. “You can’t make me laugh!” she playfully reproached him, shoving his shoulder. “We have to stay serious.”

“How can we –”

“And don’t even try to make a joke about Sirius not being invited, it stopped being funny ages ago!”

“Ouch, that’s harsh!” said James, a melodramatic expression on his face, his hands clenched upon his heart.

“It’s only harsh if you were going to make that joke” she smirked.

“I… actually think you got a point.”

“I totally did” she bragged with a satisfied grin. “Now, shall we go?”

“We shall indeed, my marvelous lady.”

When they got close to the man Lily cleared her throat. “Vernon? Petunia?” she called hesitant.

The beefy man turned, and James could finally see the anxious, thin blonde woman that was hidden behind him. Thank Merlin Lily looked better than that.

“Petunia knew you’d show up late” said Vernon, checking them out with condescension. “Time is money, I keep telling her. Unfortunately, there are people who like to waste it.”

Lily apologised, mortified, but James held is tongue, his lips clenched among his teeth and every fiber of his being focused in staying serious rather than laughing at his piggy face.

“Vernon, dear, this is my sister Lily” said Petunia mincingly. She then looked at James, grimacing at his unruly hair – in her defense, he’d secretly made sure they were particularly messy, before leaving the house. “And you must be –”

“James Potter” he interjected, offering his hand.

She shook it with mild concern, but then she seemed to regain her good manners, because she cleared her throat and straightened up. “Lily, James, this is my fiancé, Vernon Dursley” she said with pride. “Vernon, this is my sister Lily and her… boyfriend James.”

He pretended not to notice the hint of disapproval and offered his hand to Vernon as well. The man definitely had a stronger grip, but James found quite bizarre shaking an hand with such fatty fingers – he made a mental note to brag about it with Sirius as soon as he had the chance.

“Well, shall we get in?” he asked an instant later, cheerfully clapping his hands. “I’m starving!”

Petunia looked at him with widened eyes, clearly horrified by his lack of tact, but she hurried to get in when he chivalrously held the door open. Vernon flashed him a suspicious glare when James gestured for him to get in as well, but he followed her fiancé nonetheless.

Little he knew that James was simply waiting for the perfect chance to watch his bottom wobbling at every steps.

He heard Lily sighing at his side. “It’s going to be a loong evening.”

“Oh, I bet we’ll have the time of our lives” he disagreed with a wide grin, finally letting the door go to follow her to the table.

“Here’s the menu, gentlemen” said the waiter, handing them out. “In the mid time, can I bring you something to drink?”

The others opened their menus to check the beverages, but James already knew what he wanted.

“Butterbeer for me, thanks.”

When four set of eyes looked at him abashed, he knew he must have asked for something very not Muggle.

“I’d like some beer too, thanks” Lily said after a moment, trying to fix the situation. James mentally thanked her presence of spirit, but Petunia looked at her like weed in a bush of flower.

“Just water for us” she said loftily, implying any other beverage would have been an inadmissible choice.

“Well said, Petunia!” shouted Vernon. “Alcohol is the opium of the people!” he added with disdain, hitting the table with his heavy hand.

James hastily tried to disguise his stifled laugh as a gasp, hiding his face behind the menu for good measure.

The Butterbeer misunderstanding, though, had given him an irresistible idea.

“Lily,” he said with a perfectly hearable whisper, “I must assume they don’t have Acromantula fried claws either, right?”

Vernon widened his eyes in horror and Petunia quickly run her gaze left and right, making sure nobody’d heard him.

“Lily!” he winced when she violently stomped his foot. “It’s a perfectly legitimate question for who’s so inexperienced about…”

He put on a stealth expression and theatrically looked around the table, then he leant towards Vernon and Petunia, covering his mouth with a hand.

“… Muggle food” he whispered.

Vernon looked at him outraged, straightening up – that still didn’t make his neck appear, for the record. “How did you call us?!”

“People different than them” explained Petunia with resentment.

Vernon clenched his teeth while James went back to giggle behind his menu, ignoring Lily’s warning glance.

She thankfully let it go, then she braced herself and spoke with forced pleasantness.

“Why don’t we postpone the chat to concentrate on our order?”

After the waiter brought their drinks and finished writing down their picks, Petunia flashed Vernon with an eloquent glance and he cleared his throat.

“Well, James. I can proudly state I’m able to carry Petunia around with my magnificent Lincoln Versailles. What do you drive, instead?” he asked with a patronising tone that James didn’t appreciate in the least.

“Oh, I’m so glad you asked!” he said with pretended enthusiasm. “I drive a little gem, dear Vernon! Acceleration from 0 to 90 mph in ten seconds, the best aerodynamic in the country, it answer at the slightest touch!”

Vernon was speechless, eyes narrowed in anger and envy. He drank a sip of water and almost chocked.

“Er… what model is it?” asked Petunia while slapping her fiancé on the back with her boney hand.

James smirked inwardly and got ready to answer, but Lily preceded him, flashing a warning look yet again.

“He’s actually speaking about his racing broom” she explained with a fake smile.

Vernon spluttered in surprised and Petunia covered her mouth with her hand, shocked.

“His.. his…” Vernon stuttered.

“Racing broomstick, yeah!” James exclaimed before Lily could stop him. “My Nimbus Thousand, a loyal companion in many Quidditch victories and thrilling adventures. It darts in the sky as lightning bolt, Vernon, you should see it! Sure, after a bunch of hours you start feeling a bit of discomfort on your nether regions, that’s granted, but eventually you get use to it” he added with a wink.

The fat man looked at him with a mix of rage and loathing.

“Petunia, which flower have you picked for the wedding?” cut in Lily, smiling brightly. Her sister instantly seized the chance to change the subject, explaining in exhausting details every damn thing about the hall decor.

When the two sisters got to the place holders’ color, James decided it was time for a bit of fun.

“But let’s talk about you for a bit, Vernon! You must have a very important job to afford such an expensive wedding” he said, his voice dripping with admiration.

“Of course!” Vernon stated vehemently, as if James had suggested the opposite. “I’m the deputy director of the Grunnings!”

“My Vernon makes drills” said Petunia with touching pride, an hand on her breast and one on Vernon’s shoulder.

“It’s an electric tools that makes small holes” Lily explained to James, cutting is very, very interested question before he could voice it. He quickly found something else to say.

“Oh, so it’s a dreel, the thing you used to pierce you ears, Lily! Vernon, let me tell you this,” he added with a moved expression, “you have a really noble job. I can’t imagine how grim the world would look if all the Muggle girls had to renounce to this wonderful pieces of jewelry.” He raised his hand to graze Petunia’s earring, but she retracted with horror.

“Drills aren’t used to make stupid ears’ piercings!” yelled Vernon. “Without drills buildings can’t be build!”

“Then it’s even nobler than I thought!” exclaimed James, shifting his foot before Lily could step on it again. “Vernon, I’m truly impressed. You’ve just earned a new admirer.”

“Well, it’s definitely more noble than your… condition” retorted Vernon nastily, not buying his flattering – it was nice to know that he wasn’t that stupid, at least. “I bet your… kind… have to ask for unemployment benefit. I believe who’s not able to sustain himself doesn’t deserve to be supported by the government with the money earned by us honest workers!”

James put on his best devastated expression.

“You touched a sore spot, my dear Vernon” he said, his voice cracking. “You’re right, sadly. Lily and I are currently unemployed. Since we graduated at Hogwarts…” he sniffed loudly. “I’m sorry.”

“We manage to get by, anyway” clarified Lily, laying her hand on James’s wrist and clenching it hard.

James took his napkins and wiped an inexistent tear, but when he spoke again he used a pretty perky tone.

“Yeah, thank Merlin my parents are filthy rich and their vault at the Gringotts is packed with solid gold!”

Vernon and Petunia were staring with wide eyes and dropped jaws, and he felt a rush of deep satisfaction. “Oh, I’m so sorry, that was very poor of me, of course you don’t know what the Gringotts is! It’s the wizards’ bank – Mountain of Galleons guarded by a dragon!

“Are you… are you having me on?” asked Vernon, flushing with rage.

“Me? Vernon, I would never do something like that” said James, pretending to be desolate. “Everything I told you it’s the absolute truth!”

Vernon grew even angrier, but Petunia beat his retort.

“That’s not true!” she shrieked. “Dr–”she suddenly cut herself off, realising she was yelling. “Dragons don’t exist” she hissed. “Lily has never mentioned them.”

“Right!” agreed Vernon. “We would have notice for sure, if they did!”

“Of course they exist!” said James. “My own wand core is a dragon’s heartstring, and there are twelve ways to use is blood – Dumbledore himself discovered them all!”

“Lies!” roared Vernon, while Lily hid her face behind her hands. “I won’t stay here so a wastrel like you can make a fool of me! We’re leaving, Petunia!” he shouted, slamming a fist on the table and making the glasses rattle. She jerked, but an instant later she flashed a disdained glance at Lily and stood up to follow his fiancé.

James, terribly amused, turned to look at Lily.

His grin vanished in a flash when he saw that she was in tears.

“Lily…” he murmured, taken aback.

“You really can’t help acting like an idiot, right?” she asked angrily, roughly wiping her eyes with the back of her hands. “Why did you have to treat him like that?!”

“Have you seen him?! He’s literally bloated!” retorted James. “Thank Merlin you’ve better taste than your sister.”

“Oh, do I?” she sneered.

“Lily!”

“You ruined everything! I didn’t think I was asking too much when I asked you to be serious for two bloody hours!” she retorted. Then her anger seemed to fade as fast as it came. “Petunia will never forgive me…” she said bleakly.

She looked so miserable that James heart ached, the guilt crawling inside him. He knew how much Lily cared about reestablishing a contact with her sister, and he realised he’d made it impossible.

“Shit, you’re right” he murmured, caressing her hair. “I’m sorry… I’m really sorry. Please, look at me, Lily” he added with a pleading tone.

She turned towards him, her beautiful green eyes reddened by tears, and James heart sank.

“I’ll make things right with Vernon at the next occasion, all right? I promise.”

She nodded weakly and he squeezed her in his arms, cradling her until she calmed down.

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