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Honey Harper Interview: Intentionality Over Authenticity

Photo by Colin Medley

BY JORDAN MAINZER

Honey Harper started out as a love story and became a country story.

Singer-songwriter William Fussell met keyboardist Alana Pagnutti, who was from Toronto, in New York City in 2013. Pagnutti’s visa was running out, but she was able to move to the UK with an Italian passport. (Keep in mind: pre-Brexit.) Fussell had fallen in love with her, so he went to the UK with her. Eventually, they decided to start a family and moved to Toronto where they could rely on the support of her family. And they also wanted to make music.

While the earliest Honey Harper songs sound like a Fussell solo project, they’re anything but. Pagnutti was the one who first encouraged Fussell to record music full-time and helped draw up the songs. Then, she joined the live band. Eventually, on Honey Harper’s debut record Starmaker, she took on a larger role. The band billed their gorgeous dream pop-country hybrid as “country music for people who don’t like country,” more 22, A Million than Glen Campbell.

Now, Honey Harper seems limitless, much because their follow-up, Honey Harper & the Infinite Sky (ATO), is a full-band record, with heavyweights like bassist and contributing writer Mick Mayer, John Carroll Kirby, Spoon’s Alex Fischel, guitarist Jackson MacIntosh, pedal steel guitarist Connor Gallaher, and TOPS drummer Riley Fleck. With this all-star, genre-traversing cast, Honey Harper is consciously making “country music for everyone,” challenging the assumptions of previous generations, toying with Internet obsessions over authenticity, all rooted in the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard. Yes, you read that right.

But if that sounds like some misguided, B-rate Coen Brothers-esque gobbledygook, fear not: Honey Harper & the Infinite Sky is, simply, fun as hell, a well-paced album with something for everyone. “Reflections” opens with the pedal steel twang from your favorite country records, eventually subsumed by sparkling keyboards, trotting drums, and strummed acoustic guitars, a plaintive, deep-voiced Fussell winking and nodding to, “Take my dreams and put them in your pocket for somebody else to see”. “Ain’t No Cowboys in Georgia” is straight country rock, while “Broken Token” adopts a Southern rock choogle. “One Thing” is a crooned waltz. "Boots Mine Gold” is cosmic country funk; “No honky tonk could save my soul,” sings Fussell, belting at the end among Bee Gees-level harmonies. “It’s hard to make a living when you’re not living at all,” Fussell sings on crunchy stomp “Hard to Make a Living”, the type of universal line that’s so simple, yet so powerful, no wonder he’s priming to write for massive country pop artists.

First things first, Honey Harper is still a DIY project. The band’s tour with Amanda Shires--planned entirely by Fussell and Pagnutti--has been up and down, with a few dates cancelled due to COVID and one broken-down van. But they’re keeping on, with the opportunity to present Honey Harper both as a full rock and roll band and as a stripped-down three-piece that acts as a bridge between Starmaker and Honey Harper & The Infinite Sky. The band’s opening set tomorrow night at SPACE in Evanston will be comprised of the latter, a true gift for those of us who like our country music in all of its forms.

A couple months ago, I spoke with Fussell over the phone about the history of Honey Harper, why he’s interested in ideas of authenticity, pedal steel, guitar harmonies, and scams. Read our conversation below, edited for length and clarity.

Photo by Angus Borsos

Since I Left You: When did you decide to have Alana take on a bigger role in Honey Harper?

William Fussell: She’s really been involved the whole time. The project wouldn’t exist without her. I was working on something in the studio in 2016-2017 in London. That morning, I was playing songs for her. She said, “You should record that song today.” She was the one who told me to record “Secret”, the first song I ever recorded for Honey Harper. I went to the studio that day, recorded it, and came back and she said, “This is what you need to be doing.” I took all the songs I had made, and we formulated them together. She’s been involved since the beginning, just in the back. She joined the live band in 2019. It was a natural progression of her becoming more and more involved in the project until she joined the band full-time. It’s the first time I’ve worked with a partner. We’ve done a lot of music together. It creates really amazing situations, for sure, as you know each other so well. She’s a great editor. She’s an author, too. She’s done a lot. She’s a very smart person, and I needed someone like that to help. She gives my esoteric nonsense all meaning.

SILY: On this record, why did you decide to expand the sound and play with a full band?

WF: It was done painstakingly over about two years, piece by piece, going to Paris to work with producers, going to Hungary to record strings with the Hungarian Studio Orchestra. [In the beginning,] we were sitting on our assess the first two months of the pandemic being sad about stuff, thinking, “It took us two years to write the last record. Let’s write this one in two weeks.” In order to do that, we needed a good band, and a good studio, and we ended up finding those things. It was all intentional to do it quite differently. We recorded songs three times and took the best take. If you feel that live energy, that’s why, harkening back to 1970s California. We recorded it in California, so I think we achieved it.

SILY: There are some pretty big names here. Had you worked before with John Carroll Kirby and Alex Fischel?

WF: John Carroll Kirby was all over Starmaker. I met him through Sébastien Tellier in Paris in 2018. He’s a wizard, man. He’s a genius. He’s one of the best piano players of our time right now, especially with his taste. What he can do with the synthesizers is very cool as well, a little bit of a Herbie Hancock/Stevie Wonder situation. His own music is very different, too. He’s a great producer. I love that guy.

SILY: In the album bio, you talk about playing with ideas of authenticity and what country music is. You’ve called Starmaker “country music for people who don’t like country music.” And there are definitely certain ways that the genre is splitting, ambient country players versus more traditional players. Why is exploring non-country country music something you’re interested in doing with this project?

WF: It’s interesting: It is happening with folks like Sturgill [Simpson] and Metamodern Sounds In Country Music and folks like Daniel Romano who were doing it back in 2013. Those are the forerunners of this new modern wave of things, obviously influenced by some stuff in the early 2000s like Beachwood Sparks and Neko Case. This is an interesting time for [country]. [With Honey Harper,] we’re trying to come at it from a bit of a different perspective, a postmodern ideology that’s kind of aware of what it’s doing. That’s what I mean by playing with authenticity, with my belief that nothing is truly authentic. That idea is a bit outdated, and the idea of continuing to create [authenic music] kind of stifles you in a sense. This record really tries to break that mold by incorporating ourselves fully really deep, choosing to do it in three takes, taking the photos, using this imagery. It’s all very intentional. None of it is to make it less than, it’s that wherever you come from or whatever you do, this music is for everyone, now. I think that’s what I’m trying to say. It’s not geographically located anymore. For so long, it was.

I also don’t want to overthink it. I was talking to my uncle about Baudrillard the other night, and he said, “You gotta stop overthinking shit so much. Just play the music, man!” It’s hard. We want to give the music meaning and life and think about what we’re reading and let people into our heads. But at the same time, it’s supposed to be fun. You could break this down and I could talk to you for hours about Americana and country music. [At the same time,] this sounds like a fun 1970s country record.

SILY: From what perspective are you singing in “Ain’t No Cowboys in Georgia” when you sing, “Sick and tired of three chords and the truth / I think I’m ready for some computer blues”?

WF: That’s a lot that has to do with the Baudrillardian idea of authenticity. It [was written during] a time period in my life when I might have been a bit more angry that it’s impossible to break into the idea of reality. None of it’s really about truth. Everyone’s just making up stories. There are so few people that sing truthfully. It was a bit of a passive-aggressive line, for sure. It’s meant to be a bit funny, as well. It’s a little tongue-in-cheek.

A lot of this record was based in this conversation we were having in the studio about Baudrillard’s idea of simulation, and our initial idea of what’s real was based on something created not too long before it, and that was based on something created not too long before that.

The song title itself was given to me by my papa. I did an interview with Interview Magazine a while ago, and I was talking about my deteriorating relationship with my grandparents, and Trump being elected and this divide that happened in so many families. It happened in my family, and I got mad. [My grandfather] read the interview and got mad and sent me a long string of messages. He’d always end messages in very crazy ways. In the interview, I had said, “You can't always trust a cowboy,” speaking about my family in Georgia. So he ended his messages to me with, “By the way, there ain’t no cowboys in Georgia.” I was like, “Damn, that’s a good song lyric. Thank you for that.”

So the song has two places it’s coming from. This idea of trying to create a world that is Honey Harper right now, living in the farce of authenticity, but also talking about deep relationships with my grandparents. And now that they’ve passed away, the harshness that comes from that deep mourning and that loss, but that the relationship had already died long before. There’s a dual meaning behind that song to me, part personal and part philosophical.

SILY: How much does your aim to reclaim country music for everybody have to do with the fact that certain areas of country music are traditionally associated with conservative politics?

WF: That’s big talk, now, with Maren Morris and Aldean’s wife. It takes a lot of guts inside of that industry to do [what Morris did]. We listened to this really interesting podcast about how mainstream country music became a tool for the right. At first, it was folk songs for union boys that were very antigovernmental. In the 50s and 60s, it kind of got taken over again. In the 70s, it went to Willie and Waylon, the exact opposite, outlaw shit. Sometime in the 90s, it started becoming a tool for the right, and in the early 2000s, when 9/11 happened, with Toby Keith and all these people writing these crazy patriotic songs about soldiers going to Afghanistan. It’s interesting what happened. Many books could be written about the political and philosophical idea of what happened inside American country.

SILY: As much as your uncle said, “Don’t overthink this so much,” even the moments when you are being philosophical come across as conversational. You’re just riffing with people.

WF: It’s not clickbait. It is a little bit. It’s a little bomb you can drop to see how people will react. It’s a conversation starter. I’ve witnessed a little bit of that in my older years of people who like to do that stuff.

SILY: On “Tired of Feeling Good”, when you sing, “John says that the band sounds tight,” are you talking about John Carroll Kirby?

WF: I’m talking about Jon Salter from ATO Records. I think that line was written by our bassist. That was another tongue in cheek, Dr. Hook kind of song. I like talking about people in our lives and the music industry. Jon Salter was at a show, and we ended up talking to him later on. I’ve done that in the past on my EPs, just quote people. Some of the best lyrics in the world are just people talking.

SILY: How did you approach the sequencing on this record?

WF: We were working with this management group for a few months. The label and Jon had some ideas too. It was a collaborative effort for sure. One thing I knew was I wanted “Reflections” to be the first song. The last song and the first song I knew what I wanted. Everything else kind of fit in between it. “Reflections” to me is a nice bridge from Starmaker into the new record. It starts out in this synthy world, and by the end of it, you’re in this country rock thing. I love the song, too, the chorus in it and that we’re content creators these days and addicted to our cellphones and our self worth is in social media. Everybody talks about that.

SILY: The pedal steel these days is making a huge comeback, and it’s sort of that bridge between traditional country and ambient country. Did you have any input in Connor Gallaher’s pedal steel playing, or did you let him do what fit?

WF: These guys are great at what they do. The etherealness of what he would do was all Connor. I had some hooks in my head that I wanted the lead guitarist to do. A lot of it is electric guitar and the pedal steel doing guitarmonies, which is my favorite thing in the world. More than vocal harmonies, when guitars harmonize together, it’s just so sick. There’s no other way to put it. It’s so fun to listen to, so unapologetically awesome and stupid. Any time you hear it, it’s always good.

Starmaker was influenced by [Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois, and Roger Eno’s] Apollo. When I first heard that, I thought, “This is what cosmic country should sound like.” That to me, sonically, is the most cosmic country record ever made. Synthesizers and pedal steel. It’s so cool.

SILY: Do you listen to Luke Schneider and Chuck Johnson?

WF: Yeah, I love them, they’re great. And Harold Budd. I wanna work with [Luke] one day. [I also like] North Americans out of California.

SILY: Andrew Tuttle?

WF: Hayden Pedigo out of Amarillo. There are a bunch of cool people. William Tyler, Jake Xerxes Fussell. [Jake and I] share a last name. Maybe we’re related. People like that I’d love to work with and make something like that. The next move, I have some ideas for it. It’s kind of in the works. There are two ways to go with it.

SILY: Do you have a favorite guitarmonies song ever, or one that you think best encapsulates the idea of it?

WF: There are obvious ones, like “Layla” or “Bell Bottom Blues”. All Allman Brothers songs, like “Ramblin’ Man”, are amazing guitarmonies songs. The intro to “Ramblin’ Man” is so freakin’ good. I could listen to that intro over and over again, which is why “Broken Token” was created, because it was a tribute to that kind of thing. Little River Band’s “Lonesome Loser”.

SILY: I always think of “Reelin’ in the Years”.

WF: Oh yeah, Steely Dan. Duh.

SILY: Do you have a favorite song from the record, or a favorite song to play live from it.

WF: “Crystal Heart”. “Lake Song” and “Crystal Heart” are very Starmaker-y. “Crystal Heart” is about when we almost became Scientologists but ended up changing our minds. We were considering it, walking in London and thinking, “Let’s go get our thetans tested.” We thought more about it and realized, “This is how they get you.” You go in and think, “This seems fun to do” and then you spend the rest of your life praying to Zorb or whatever. It got into my head, the whole idea of being taken into this cult. That’s what the whole idea is about, going clear and what not. It was a brief conversation that turned into a bigger story.

SILY: Are you the type of person especially prone to scams?

WF: [laughs] Probably, honestly. I really love people and probably trust them a little too much. I think Alana has taught me how to be less vulnerable to scams. If you can catch me by myself, you got me, but if Alana’s there, you got no chance. That’s just a little news for anyone there trying to get me to join their cult.

SILY: What’s the inspiration behind the cover art?

WF: We wanted to have something that was a continuation of Starmaker. We thought that was a cool idea, almost a transformation. This young, blonde pretty angel came to earth in the middle of the pandemic, got stuck, and came out the other side older and grizzlier and more tired.

SILY: Is your live set these days mostly these songs?

WF: I have two different bands for this tour. I have a full rock and roll band. But when we play Evanston, it’s going to be a different show. It’s going to be a 3-piece that’s more of a bridge between this record and Starmaker. I have two amazing musicians joining me. I’m excited that I got on this tour and had two options. You’ll hear more of both records with a three-piece. My full band is all the new record.

SILY: Have you played SPACE before?

WF: No. I haven’t played Chicago as Honey Harper. But I’ve played Empty Bottle and Schubas and Lincoln Hall.

SILY: What’s next for you in the short or long term?

WF: This tour is taking up the rest of the year. I’ll be working some things in the meantime. It’s a lot of prepping for this tour and next year in Europe and more in the states later on.

I’m getting into producing for some different projects in Nashville. I’m trying to get involved in songwriting for bigger pop-country artists.

One of the directions we’ve discussed going is going even deeper into the idea of authenticity and creating a bit of an alter ego, a pop country Honey Harper. It’s so fun to write [those kinds of] songs, even though they can be kind of ridiculous.

SILY: How’s touring with Amanda Shires been?

WF: So far so good! My band and her band go back a long ways. The keyboard player for my band and the drummer and bassist of her band used to play for Butch Walker. The bassist in my band and the bassist in Amanda’s band are dating.

SILY: Anything you’ve been listening to, watching, or reading lately that’s caught your attention?

WF: I’ve been listening to a lot of Ethel Cain. She’s one of my favorites right now. Rina Sawayama. Chappell Rone. A lot of Carpenters. I’m all over the place. Red Hot Chili Peppers. Melvins.

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