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falmerbrook · 5 months

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People have probably asked you this before but what is your personal interpretation of The Battle of Red Mountain? Personally, I love the idea of Dagoth being tempted by the heart despite him being the one guy to urge the tools not be used. (Nerevar too to an extent but he’s bad at making decisions)

I just love my tragic six council.

*rubbing my hands together* This is the perfect question for me! I have already given this much thought because I too love drama. So you're getting a bit of an essay; I hope you are ok with that :D. Skip down a bit if you just want just my thoughts on my interpretation, but I'm gonna start by laying out the options and my thoughts on some of the different interpretations first.

So first of all, I don't think there is a canon for it. Both in the sense that I don't think Bethesada or the Morrowind team actually have a solid canon idea of what went down, and that I don't think any one retelling has overwhelming evidence that blows the others out of the water completely (although some have more merit to me than others).

The other strong opinion I have is that I dislike the Dragon Break explanation (at least in the way I see most people present it). Despite Dragon Breaks being one of the more interesting pieces of lore (and one of my favorite watsonian explanations for an in-game thing ever), I think it is the most boring interpretation of the BoRM. I know there's some canon support for it, but it just doesn't speak to me. Like, if every version of the battle could have happened "simultaneously" because of a Dragon Break, then that means that there's a chance no one is lying because the version they tell is truly how they experienced it, even if someone else experienced something else. Where's the fun in that? We're here for tragedy and lies and drama.

So I sort of see there being 6 main versions of what happened that we've been given (with some details changed depending on the exact source): 1) the Ashlander version (descended from the account of Alandro Sul, 2) the Temple version, 3) the Nord version (from the Five Songs of King Wulfharth), 4) the version in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, 5) Vivec's version (as told to the Dissident Priests and the Nerevarine), and 6) Dagoth Ur's version.

The Ashlander version (x) (x) (x) has the Tribunal outside of the mountain fending off the Dwemer army while Nerevar and Voryn fought Dumac and Kagrenac in the Heart Chamber. These put Voryn (and presumably House Dagoth) on the side of the Chimer. Progress of Truth claims the Dwemer destroyed themselves, while Nerevar at Red Mountain claims Azura showed Nerevar how to "use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people" (whatever that means) and turned them to dust. After that, Nerevar is kinda fucked up, so while Voryn urges him to destroy the tools, he tells Voryn to guard them while he get's the Tribunal's opinion. They're like "let's keep 'em" and he's like "actually never mind I want Azura's opinion" so they poison him, take the tools, and kill Voryn. This one is interesting because the Ashlander mythology and culture seems to be mostly based on oral tradition, so the versions we see of their accounts have been written by scholarly outsiders (obscuring the truth even further). Additionally, they claim this version was passed down from the the account of Alandro Sul, but that leaves a lot of time for this version of the story to change and morph. These are probably, like, 30th level accounts of what happened.

The official Temple version (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) claims Nerevar was martyred in the BoRM, dying of his injuries, and puts House Dagoth and Voryn on the side of the Dwemer. Most of these claim Nerevar killed Dumac and then died from his own injuries (Saint Nerevar specifically claims these were injuries inflicted by Voryn), but don't specify what happened to Voryn or what was going on with the Tribunal during the battle. This version is much more vague about pretty much everything than the Ashlander or Vivec versions. The thing to note with these sources is they are either obviously biased propaganda from the Tribunal Temple or are drawing from obviously biased propaganda from the Tribunal Temple.

The Nord version (x) is way different from the others and for that reason I kinda ignore it to be honest. So in this version (as far as I can tell?) after the War of the First Council kicks up, Voryn drags the Nords into it by telling them he knew where the Heart of Shor (Lorkhan) was. This version seems to put the Nords and House Daogth (including Voryn) on one side and the Chimer and Dwemer on the other. Nerevar and Dumac are still buddies here and fight Voryn and Wulfharth in the Heart Chamber. Voryn kills Dumac. Nerevar kills Voryn. Lorkhan kills Nerevar. Nerevar kills Lorkhan. Alandro Sul is blind now. Vivec might be there.

The 36 Lessons of Vivec version (x) is also one I kinda ignore in terms of what happened during the BoRM since it too is essentially propaganda and largely lies (also I have a hard time understanding it). From my understanding, Vivec puts the Dwemer and Nords against the Chimer. There's sort of an overall placing of the "Sharmat" against the Chimer/Nerevar as well, but no explicit mention of what Voryn or House Dagoth is doing. The Tribunal destroy the Dwemer and "remove them from the world", while Nerever "went too far inside [Red Mountain], seeking the Sharmat [Voryn]" as it exploded. I guess that's how Nerevar dies? Of course, there is also that infamous secret message in the lessons: "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

Vivec's version to the Dissident Priests (x) is probably the most detailed, and one of two that are first hand accounts. In this version, he claims that during the battle Nerevar and Voryn went into the Heart Chamber and fought Dumac and Co., where Nerevar killed him. Kagrenac did something with the Heart and *poof* all of the Dwemer are gone. Voryn tells Nerevar they should destroy the tools, but Nerevar wants to get the Tribunal's opinion. They tell him to keep them, and he agreed under the condition that "the tools would never be used in the profane manner that the Dwemer had intended". Nerevar and the Tribunal go to get the tools from Voryn, but he refuses to give them up, so the gang fights him, gets the tools back, and Voryn escapes. The Tribunal keep their oath for years (Nerevar nebulously stops existing during this time) before using them and pissing off Azura.

Daogth Ur's version (x), claims that he loyally served Nerevar until the end, and Nerevar betrayed him by killing him after telling to him to guard the tools. "Yet beneath Red Mountain, you struck me down as I guarded the treasure you bound me by oath to defend. It was a cruel blow, a bitter betrayal, to be felled by your hand." What a wordsmith!

The one depiction we have of Nerevar's murder is a sketch Kirkbride did for Morrowind's 10th anniversary and it doesn't match a single one of the other versions we have, but because it's visual (and dramatic) it is burned into the fandom zeitgeist so it's worth mentioning.

So none of these line up completely, but there is some significant overlap between a few.

Interestingly, the Ashlander version of the build up to the War of the First Council and the events of the battle itself up until Nerevar goes to chat with the Tribunal is pretty much the same (with the exception of how the Dwemer disappeared) as Vivec's account to the Dissident Priests. Where they differ is in what happened to the Dwemer, Voryn, and Nerevar. To me that makes that sequence of events the most likely of all of the options from a "which is most likely canon" perspective, and the differences between the two come down to bias, with the Alandro Sul and the Ashlanders trying to bolster Nerevar's accomplishments and portray the Tribunal poorly, and Vivec trying to dissuade any suspicion that he killed Nerevar.

Also interestingly, Dagoth Ur's account matches Vivec's pretty closely, with Vivec claiming Nerevar (and the Tribunal) had to fight Voryn to get the tools back, and Dagoth Ur claiming Nerevar killed him (presumably to get the tools back), despite their completely opposing biases. That's gotta mean something. I'm not sure Voryn ever actually says the Tribunal murdered Nerevar now that I'm thinking about it (please correct me if I'm wrong), rather just implies they betrayed him (which could of course include murder though). Meanwhile, Vivec's secret message in the 36 Lessons is basically a murder confession.

This is so messy (in the best way).

SKIP HERE FOR JUST MY THOUGHTS!

So which one do I like? It depends. Like I've said before, I'm here for interpersonal tragedy among Nerevar and Co., so the version I prefer depends on what part of the tragedy you want to focus on. If I want an interpretation of the story that focuses mostly on Nerevar and the Tribunal's relationship, the Ashlander version where they murder him is the most juicy. But a version where he dies from his fight with Voryn, and the Tribunal watch him die, might be the most tragic. If I want the focus on Nerevar and Voryn's messiness, then perhaps his version where Nerevar kills him is the best fit. If I want a focus on Nerevar and Dumac, perhaps Nerevar dies from those wounds. One of my favorite things about Morrowind is that there is no right interpretation, so you can mix and match for the circumstances of what kind of story you want to tell! You don't even have to be consistent. So much angst potential! So much fun to be had!

If I had to create a best ""canon"" interpretation though based on all of those versions I just detailed, it would be this: Following the Ashlanders' and Vivec's account of the build up to the battle, with the Dwemer (and Nords and Orcs are there too I guess idc) on one side and all of the Chimer houses and tribes on the other, Nerevar, Voryn, and Alandro Sul (among others) end up in the Heart Chamber while the Tribunal lead the charge against the bulk of the Dwemer army outside of the mountain. During the fight in the Heart Chamber, Nerevar and Dumac fight one-on-one, ending with Nerevar very injured, but having killed Dumac (it's tragic and emotional. Poor Nerevar). With Dumac's death, the direction of the battle turns to Kagrenac, who is messing with the tools and the Heart. Knowing everything is about to close in on him, Kagrenac does... something... to the Heart and the Dwemer all disappear (I personally like to think it was a lot less planned and perfected than most like to think. It was a panic move). His tools are left behind, and Voryn gets them and tells Nerevar they should destroy them, considering what they just saw and what he knows personally of Kagrenac. Nerevar is pretty delirious and distressed, and doesn't trust himself enough to make the decision. Knowing he hadn't trusted the Tribunal as much as he should have about the Dwemer leading up to this point, he decides it would be best to get their input. He tells Voryn to stay with the tools, and while Voryn is hesitant to be there alone (that could be because he is nervous to be in the presence of the Heart with the tools, or because he doesn't want Nerevar alone with the Tribunal or getting their advice), Nerevar trusts him fully. He is helped out of the mountain and to the Tribunal, who are dealing with the aftermath of the Dwemer disappearing. Note that at this point in their lives, they are annoyed and frustrated with his leadership, and don't trust his decision making too much. They urge him to keep the tools, and he is not thrilled about it, but relents because he is tired. They all rest a few hours, and then go back into Red Mountain to get Voryn and the tools. There, for whatever reason, Voryn won't give them back (I'll get back to why in a minute), and things escalate very quickly, with the situation ending with Nerevar having killed him. Nerevar, now having killed two of his closest friends over this, changes his mind and decides against using the tools, making the Tribunal swear an oath to never use them, period. They aren't thrilled about this, and their animosity towards Nerevar just grows. They either bide their time and wait for Nerevar to die, or kill him themselves sometime after this, after which they use the tools and piss off Azura.

So back to the topic of Voryn, your point about him is interesting. I feel like there's so many ways to interpret him in this situation and how exactly he was invovled. How did he find out about what the Dwemer (or at least Kagrenac) were doing? What side was he on during the war? Was House Dagoth on his side? Did he mess with the tools when he was left alone with them? If he did, why?

Knowing he was probably closer with Dumac and Kagrenac (whether that be personally and/or politically) than most other Chimer, that could explain how he knew about the heart. I've had a thought in the past that perhaps one of them straight up showed him the Heart and the Numidium, which spurred him to warn Nerevar about it. What if that exposure to it fucked with his head a little, like radiation? Afterwards, he could always feels it's pull and beating, and it only got stronger when he got closer to the mountain. It's like a drug that gets you hooked instantly. My thought was perhaps that was the reason why 1) he is hesitant to watch the tools (and be alone with the Heart), 2) wanted the tools destroyed, knowing first hand how maddeningly powerful the Heart is, and 3) he gave in and messed with the Heart when left alone. There is a delightful irony to him being the first of the Chimer to use the tools despite being the one to most strongly urge not to.

On the other hand, it is from Vivec's account to the Dissident Priests that we get the idea that he had messed with the tools when left alone with them, and of course Vivec has reason to portray Dagoth Ur as insane and unreasonable and corrupted by the Heart to the priests. Perhaps though, Voryn had been faithful and hadn't done anything with them, and was instead unwilling to give the tools to Nerevar because he didn't want them in the hands of the Tribunal, who he believed wouldn't be so noble. Vivec only depicts this as an irrational and power hungry move as projection. On that note, I wish we could've gotten Almalexia and Sotha Sil's account of what happened. I'm sure they'd be just as dubious as Vivec's, but they would've been fun to analyze.

One last thing, I've always been curious about House Dagoth's involvement in the War of the First Council. While the Temple puts them on the side of the Dwemer, it's pretty safe to say this is a form of propaganda to make them look bad after their house was disbanded and essentially erased from history. Other sources give little mention of House Dagoth, but mention their leader, Voryn, as serving under Nerevar, so it's likely the house was on his side as well. I have had the curious idea before though that perhaps House Dagoth, having been more closely aligned and politically/culturally similar to the Dwemer compared to the other houses, had a fracturing caused by the war, with some following Voryn's leadership on the side of the Chimer, and others following the Dwemer. This could explain the conflicting accounts of whose side they were on (ignoring the propaganda angle). But that's more AU than a headcanon.

Anyway, TLDR: it depends! There is no one account that is particularly more canon than others (although i think some are more reliable than others). Different scenarios maximize different drama for different characters, so my interpretation depends on what you want to get out of depicting that battle!

Oh my god I am so sorry this is so long. I'm sure you didn't want this much, but I just have so many thoughts and I figured his would be a good opportunity to vomit them all into the world. If anyone actually read this whole thing, I appreciate you greatly!!

#mine #ask #a very wonderful ask!!#morrowind #tes #the elder scrolls #headcanon #avahkadoo #long post #so i have a fanfic i started drafting where the idea is each chapter is a different way nerevar couldve died #so i already had a lot of these thoughts on hand lol #i debated deleting most of this because writing this much is veryvery cringe of me but im being brave and making myself post it #im also kinda anxious posting any of my interpretations #so uh nervous about this one tbh

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