#cindemption

[onewomancitadel]

Since I imprinted on them around a decade or more ago I shall probably love Jaune the rough and tough Huntsman who is wearing a bunny underneath his armour and is the Rusted Knight forever and I shall probably also love the baddest bestest meanest cleverest Fall Maiden of all time (Cinder Fall) whose redemption I have unironically been anticipating since the end of Volume 3 forever. I was in fucking high school. I was like I know a baddie waiting to turn good and I knew it on instinct! I still find it funny that her eternal moment of damnation to me was basically like the implicit promise of redemption, lol. V4 intro made me howl.

I think it's very funny that this eventually coalesced into thinking they should fall in love, because it kind of mirrors my relationship with the show; I liked RWBY, even loved it, but I really fell in love with it - really took it narratively seriously - probably around V6. When I knew the Ozlem stakes at play, the answer became clear to me in V7 as Cinder's redemption in the finale was effectively flagged in big bright letters of Ozpin's speech: CAN YOU FORGIVE THEM?

I am not just a shipper. I love them very much. And I love this show very much. I would really like to see it finished, even just to find out I'm wrong, because I think it deserves an ending. But for what it's given me, I think it has been very special too.

#jaune arc #cinder fall #cindemption #knightfall #otp: the rusted knight and the fall maiden #cinder will toil in her isolation until she redeems herself

[rubyneo]

:)

#rwby #rwby9 #blorbette x blorbina tag #cherryedits #everyone thank seraphina cindemption onewomancitadel for helping me get the text meme #cj.txt

[seldomkeep]

Dune is Jungian

Okay, I'm sure this has been done to death already. But there's no harm in travelling across old ground, and this stuff should be interesting to RWBY fans.

Dune's main character is Paul Atreides. Ultimately, the first book is about his journey through the unconscious. Here are some of the steps:

Paul's father (Duke Leto) organizes "Mentat" training for him. Mentats were are an attempt to recreate the abilities of computers and "thinking machines": they are skilled in memorizing information, organizing data, finding evidence for certain ideas, etc. This training can be understood as mastery of the conscious mind.

Paul's mother (Lady Jessica) gave him "Bene-Gesserit" training. The Bene Gesserit are a secretive Jesuit matriarchal order that trains its members to have superhuman powers. To give an example, "The Voice" is this method by which Bene Gesserit could control others, by registering what exact sounds can control the person in question, and then emitting the right sounds with a command. This is a form of mastery of the unconscious.

The unconscious mind is huge, compared to the conscious mind. So the drug melange (which also seems to serve as an allegory for oil) is also used to enhance Bene-Gesserit powers. Paul's use of melange enhances his powers greatly, to the point he becomes prescient. He can fully tap into and utilize his unconscious, and thus utilize the understanding of all his ancestors.

Melange itself is by-product of the life cycle of sandworms: sandworms are themselves allegories for the cycle of life, the tail impregnating the head. The "water of life" is another indirect product of the sandworm, water being a symbol of the unconscious. Paul's journey is one of individuation, at the end of which he becomes fully prescient (omniscient???) due to the complete mastery of his mind. Paul lives up the prophecy put in place by the Bene-Gesserit, and becomes a messianic christ-like figure. The cost of this archetype (and not just Paul's individuation) was the billions of lives snuffed out across the galaxy, for his holy war.

Definitely some shades of Paul in Ruby.

@cindemption

#apologies for the delay

[dicknouget]

Collection of My Essays and Rants

RWBY Specific:

On Arkos Revival

A reply to a post On Cindemption and What we are "Owed" as a FNDM

On Character Potential and Relevance: Adam Taurus' Character Wasn't Wasted

A Response to Reviews and Certain Objections on Adam's Character Relevance Essay

Misc:

On Art, Requests, Commissions and Tips

A Reply to an Anon about Art, Requests, Commission and Tips

#nougets rants #nougets essays #masterpost

[fadedneonzzz]

What do you think will happen to Cinder Fall at the end of the RWBY series?

Firstly, I think there’s a difference between what I think will happen and what I want to happen.

As for what I think will happen, I think there are 3 strong possibilities. 1 is the most predictable and boring option in my opinion, and that’s death. At this point in the story I don’t think any character needs the accolade of killing Cinder. I’ve seen people speculate that Salem will kill her, but unless she has a backup maiden on standby she’d be shooting herself in the foot. Even if Salem believed Cinder’s lie, I don’t think she really cares at the end of the day because she got two relics, which is more than she has ever gotten before (at least I assume that’s the case). I don’t really see any of the heroes benefiting either because they’ve developed nicely over time without Cinder being there. I fully accept that Cinder could very well die before the series ends, however the problem I have with Cinder Death theories is that people are more interested in who will kill her rather than them speculating on how Cinder’s story will end. They’ve made it clear that Cinder’s character arc is about her, it’s not about Ruby, Jaune, Salem, Emerald or Mercury, she’s basically the villain protagonist. It shouldn’t be about who’s character will get advanced, it should be about Cinder’s story coming to an end.

Another strong possibility, in my opinion is redemption. Now regardless of how you or anyone else feels about Cinder redemption, just know that there’s no such thing as “this character doesn’t deserve redemption”. There’s no arbitrary line that makes a character irredeemable, at the end of the day these characters are fictional and the writers can do whatever they’d like with a character (within reason of course). That being said, I think there’s a case to make for Cinder redemption, there’s plenty of room for her to grow later on in the series. Now I see why people think redemption is out of the question, but there really hasn’t been any opportunities for Cinder to actually reflect on everything she has done. There’s been nothing to convince her that she’s on the wrong path, and none of the heroes have tried getting through to her. She isn’t a dedicated follower of Salem, she’s only there to get power. Honestly, I think Cinder needs to be seen as a person who needs help than someone who needs to be killed. I also think she should be given the choice to reform, because it’s entirely possible she thinks she has no other choice but to be evil. It doesn’t help that she has a Grimm arm grafted to her that Salem has control over. Also keep in mind that redemption isn’t the same as forgiveness, RWBY and co. do not have to forgive Cinder. And I find it very hypocritical of people who want Neo and/or Mercury redemption, but somehow bar Cinder from redemption, either they’re all redeemable or none of them are. Especially since none of them have shown a shred of remorse for what they’ve done.

Last possibility, is independent Cinder. She doesn’t have to be good or evil, she could be whatever she wants. This would require her to remove the Grimm arm either by herself or with Ruby’s help. I think this has an equal chance of happening because while Cinder is far from a good person, she’s not a nihilist who wants to destroy the world. Think of it like a 3rd faction, similar to Raven and her tribe.

In conclusion, I don’t have just one idea of how Cinder’s story will end. She could survive the series, or she could die, it’s hard to tell at this point. And maybe I read too deep into Cinder’s character than the writers intended, but I feel like they’re definitely going somewhere with her character. They invested so much time and effort into her, that I feel it’s leading to some kind of grand conclusion. I just think death is the most boring, uninteresting, and kind of depressing for her story to end like that. Yes you can argue Penny and Pyrrha had tragic endings, but it wasn’t like their sacrifice was for nothing. I think if Cinder does turn good, she should spend the remainder of her life atoning for what she has done, but she should be free to do so of her own volition. I don’t think she should be forced to do it, but she uses her newfound freedom for good purposes.

(Sorry for the long winded answer lol)

#rwby #cinder fall #rwby cinder #cindemption #ask faded #xsummerrosex

[karinta-agogobell-unified]

So I’ve come to a realisation about Cinder.

I’ve been trying for a little while to get inside her head and understand why she feels the way she feels, why she does the things she does, why she is the way she is — and so far, this is the only explanation that has made any amount of sense to me.

Deep down, she still instinctually wants something she thinks she can’t have. Due to the conditioning of her incredibly abusive childhood and early adolescence (as well as the lessons she learnt from her interactions with Rhodes), she believes that love, compassion, and mercy are fake and don’t exist, and that anyone who claims to display those traits is lying in order to get what they want. She has thoroughly internalised this mindset, to the degree that her modus operandi is to casually inflict cruelty onto others in order to get what she wants — and yet it is becoming more and more apparent that a deeply-repressed part of her still wants to be cared for by others. Look at how she reacted to Emerald’s betrayal when Jinn showed her Ruby’s plan: she was, for a brief moment, visibly disappointed that Emerald had left her and defected to her enemies’ side. On some level, she felt a bond with Emerald, despite the screwed-up abusive way in which it manifested itself.

Nonetheless, Cinder is convinced that being cared about by others for its own sake is an utter sham (“the truth is that no one ever loved you”); she simply doesn’t believe it’s possible, because she’s seen no compelling evidence that it’s anything other than a means to get her on the side of the other person.

She only submits to those she sees as posing a threat to her (i.e. Salem, and previously Madame, who instilled that example in her first), because she sees that their “care” for her is ultimately a means to an end. And yet, with Salem, a small part of her probably still hopes that Salem actually cares about her, which is why she hasn’t yet realised that she’s being manipulated and abused by Salem just as she was with Madame — plus this time, it’s subtler and more insidious than Madame’s abuse ever was.

And I believe that it’s this psychological conflict between what she wants and what she believes is possible that leads to her all-consuming drive for revenge upon Huntresses and Huntsmen (as a proxy for Rhodes, who betrayed her and shattered her trust when she was just a child). The utter lack of real trust that anyone ever showed her has taught her that she can never trust anyone unless threats and fear are involved, and the complete lack of any compassion towards her has left a hollow space inside her, emotionally, that she feels she can only satisfy by destroying the things and the people that stand in her way. Since she believes that compassion and care (towards her or otherwise) is impossible, she sees destruction of her obstacles to power as her only option.

But the acquisition of as much power as she can get is nothing more than a repeatedly-applied band-aid over a massive gaping wound in her psyche that’s been festering for decades. And until she learns that the quest for unlimited power, by its very nature, cannot satisfy her innermost instinctual need to be loved, she will not and cannot heal and become a less fucked-up person.

#yes I know this doesn’t address the issue of accountability for the myriad horrific things she’s done #but that doesn’t mean it’s not important #redemption isn’t clean or tidy or a panacea for all the harm that someone has caused #it’s basically harm reduction #because nothing will ever truly heal the wounds that someone has caused #what’s done is done and we can’t change what’s already happened #but if someone is able to change their outlook and actions #the future harm they would’ve caused is reduced #WITHOUT inflicting cruelty on that person who caused the initial cruelty #inflicting cruelty on those who are already cruel is wasteful and doesn’t change anything #punishment =/= accountability #I honestly don’t know though this is all sort of rambling free-floating musing #cinder fall #cindemption #rant

[tempoaryblogformightyjensblog]

I'll be honest one of the reasons I want cinder to be redeemed is just to watch what Ensues

People were really furious Emerald got redeemed

I heard some were mad that Whitley Got redeemed

When they were like, as 'Easy mode' As redemption Arcs get

Cinder Redemption...The Chaos would be insane, Profoundly so. It would reach through the fabric of reality and fill dimensions with anger and discourse

And I would watch it all like-

#rwby #cinder fall #cindemption

[birdiethought]

So what will it be, Maiden of Choice?

The idea of Cincer finally getting the Crown of Choice lives rent free in my mind.

Give me Cinder being faced with the reality that Salem never was and never will be her salvation. Give me Cinder questioning everything she's done up until that point. Give me Cinder considering for the first time in her life that she could take a different path. Give me Cinder allowing herself to be vulnerable for once.

#also someone fucking hug her #me #im someone #man it's gonna hurt so much #and i'm so here for it #cindemption is coming #i'll die on that hill #cinder fall #rwby #rwby maidens #fall maiden #my art #being sick got me to finally finish this #nefarious baby

[patchodraws]

Was thinking about your posts about Cinder, was wondering: What do you think Cinder's going to choose in the end?

as she is right now, cinder looks like she’ll choose to keep being evil, but that’s only because everything so far has shown her to have to keep doing evil things. there hasn’t been a moment yet where cinder has had the chance to reflect on what she’s doing to herself and, more importantly, how salem is using her.

the closest we’ve gotten so far is watts’ speech in v8, and that did more to shake her out of her own angst and stupor and set her back on the path of ruthlessness and efficiency. all she knows right now is that she let her personal frustrations get in the way of her goals, salem’s goals, and the last time she let that happen she had to climb her way back up to safety, to being worthy.

if cinder is to change, if cinder is to make the decision not to be a pawn once that choice comes up, i don’t think she needs to be shown failing again, but i think she needs to be shown succeeding and not finding the power and freedom she was promised by salem. at the moment, the wrong choice seems to be the one she’ll make, but i hope future volumes shake that idea up a bit

#ask away #cinder fall #to clarify: i’m not particularly for or against cindemption #i think she’s just as effective as a villain if she doesn’t get redemption #right now the show has done more to solidify her as evil but has planted the seeds for a different path #it’s just about whether they keep sowing those seeds in future volumes

[tumblezwei]

I love the "Cinder doesn't deserve redemption because she's a ruthless killer that feel no remorse" crowd because they seem to be under the impression that the entire appeal of Cindemption isn't dragging her kicking and screaming into being a better person.

"She doesn't want to be a good person" you're so right, bestie, this is gonna suck for her

#''why would you even *want* this?'' #because I like having fun and don't have a stick up my ass #rambling

[19-bellwether]

Pre-Finale V8 Survey Results

Thank you to everyone who submitted a response! I ended up with 598 total! Here are the results question by question. Shout out to the twenty-eight people who think Yang is dead.

Is Yang dead?

95.3% No, she's in turbohell for gay crimes.

4.7% Yeah, the show's renamed to Red Wersus Blue.

Where does the void spit you out?

41.8% Wonderland. Oscar's fairytale had to be foreshadowing, right?

20.1% A world made of memories. Ruby's not running from her trauma this time.

8.7% The Underworld where they encounter the spirits of the dead.

6.8% They're sent back in time. STRQ lore, here we come.

5.6% An alternate version of Remnant. Your AU fanfic might become canon.

5.3% The Old World full of gods, magic, and humanity 1.0.

11.7% Other

Some notable submissions to this question: The real world. RWBY Chibi. A Lovecraftian Nightmare. The home of the gods or relic spirits. Wonderland meets Dante's Inferno. All of the above at once. Nowhere, you just fall. Nowhere, because superhell spits Yang back out since she's straight.

Can Spicecream defeat Newspaper?

41.1% They defeat Team RWB... except Neo then betrays Cinder.

20.1% Neo bites it but Cinder survives to claim victory. She forgets to thank Neo for her sacrifice.

19.8% Cinder's losing streak continues and she falls into a bottomless pit for the second time.

10.5% Total victory. Cinder gets the relics and Neo gets her revenge.

8.6% They both die or fall lmao

How does team green conquer the sandstorm?

68% Surprise backup! It's time to see Team SSSN's and CFVY's new models.

19.1% ...or maybe a surprise appearance from the summer maiden?

9.6% Jaune, Nora, Winter, and/or Penny arrive to turn the tide.

3.4% Lots of effort and more than a few casualties.

Does Winter lose two shitty fathers today?

67.7% She cuts down Ironwood. Good for her. She deserves it.

15.9% Inexplicably, they both make it out of Volume 8 alive.

13% Winter sacrifices herself to kill him and we're robbed of a family Schneeunion.

3.4% Ironwood kills her and sheds a single regretful tear before moving onto his next genocide plan.

Does Atlas fall? How about that bomb?

45.9% Gravity always wins in the end. Hopefully Mantle finished evacuating.

43.5% It falls and gets caught in the bomb's explosion. Kingdom of Atlas more like Kingdom of Ashes.

2.5% The staff is used to keep Atlas afloat once more. So much for the evacuation plan.

8.1% Same as above except the bomb doesn't go off. Atlas and Mantle are left mostly empty.

Anyone dying in the finale? (Falling into the void doesn't count)

Nearly everyone answered Ironwood. There were many variations on his name including Irondaddy and Irondick. The next most popular choices were Watts, Winter, Harriet, and Neo.

Is Cinder on the path to redemption?

39.5% She'll leave Salem and fly solo, but idk if she'll ever be a good person.

33.1% Fuck no lol

18.2% No opinion. I'm not touching this discourse with a ten foot pole.

9.1% Redemption or bust. I'm all in on Cindemption and ready to gloat when it happens.

What's up with Penny's new body?

54.3% She's pure aura. Hopefully Cinder doesn't break it.

39.3% She's an ordinary human with squishy guts now.

6.4% I don't care, I just want robot Penny back.

Is Bumbleby canon?

47.9% Yes.

52.1% Yes, but I really wish they'd kiss or confess already.

R8 Volume 8 Average of 8.4/10:

*The next two questions were checkboxes, meaning people could select more than one answer.

Most enjoyed parts of Volume 8?

72.2% Character Development

61.4% Story and Overarching Narrative

41.2% Fights and Action Scenes

Other

Common answers: Animation improvements. Memes. Thirst for Salem. Everything involving The Happy Huntresses. Plot twists. Thirst for Ambrosius. Redemption arcs. Topical themes. Thirst for The Hound.

Least enjoyed parts of Volume 8?

38.2% Rushed character arcs due to cast bloat

26.2% Inconsistent pacing/tone

21.5% Characters make dumb or illogical decisions

18.1% My OTP still isn't canon

4.6% I'm a bootlicker and hate how they've treated Ironwood

Other

Common answers: Ironwood is a douchebag. Some characters not getting enough to do, especially Weiss. Lack of fight scenes. No Pyrrha. Not enough Team RWBY content. One person doesn't like Nuts and Dolts.

Ideal post-credit scene(s)?

Common answers: Yang waking up in Wonderland. Salem reforming. Taiyang and Raven. Side characters arriving in Atlas from Ruby's broadcast. Summer Rose lore. "Hello again!" And one person wants a full graphic Bumbleby sex scene.

Any final predictions or comments?

This was my favorite response so I'm sharing it: "i would die of laughter if atlas fell and just as Salem regenerated she got exploded by the bomb"

Thanks again for participating! Any results catch your eye?

#rwby #rwby spoilers #rwby survey #survey

[onewomancitadel]

I also just think if Cinder were a condemned character it would have - or should have - been much clearer by now. If she's the victim who keeps perpetuating the cycle when others break out of it, I want to know why she specifically is different. What makes her distinct from, say, Winter? Is it because Winter has Weiss? Or because Winter is better off as an Atlesian citizen when Cinder was its lowest? If Rhodes failed her, why can't there be a character who redeems that? Or was that actually poor framing and she really was in the wrong for not being able to suffer torture for longer?

But then when you consider it from a macro perspective, it's not just about singular moral excusability. I think that ultimately suffering is necessary - it defines joy - and she's an agent of necessary growth and pain in the story, but it also means she has to carry that all by herself.

I want to go so far as to say that the humanistic rendering of fairytales is asking why she has to be the villain and what it means when you're stuck being that. So her redemption arc transcends this idea, because

cut immediately to:

I think that this is where R/WBY's self-awareness about fairytales is actually exciting, because as opposed to a cynical rendering it is actually a deeply hopeful one.

Cinder can go beyond her symbolic role but she can also be rewarded for it, because from death comes new life and rebirth. It's for her too.

#cindemption #reverse ozlem #stories that would break hearts if we knew them

[strqyr]

I was imagining one minor step to a potential Cindemption scenario would actually be her forming a dynamic with Watts

Its common when trying to make one villain sympathetic is to make them a 'Lesser Evil' of sorts to a more evil villain.

Watts has most of Cinders flaws, but none of the tragedy behind them. And they are already established to have a bit of a Rivalry

It would be a good subversive bit as well, there bit in Volume 5 with Raven seemed to set up watts as 'The Pragmatic one' in contrast to the more needlessly spiteful Cinder. We've already been shown watts was wrong on the reason Cinder took the deal, and volume 7 shows how low watts himself is willing to stoop.

So it would be interesting if they had a dynamic flip of sorts, with Cinder being the 'Lighter shade of black' to Arthur.

i think it could work. especially since in volume 5, cinder’s spitefulness was because she was almost killed by ruby, and lost an eye and an arm in progress, while watts’ personal beef is... ironwood picking pietro over him.

like, there’s a difference between their reasons for doing what they’re doing, and their upbringing: cinder’s an orphan kid from mistral who was brought to atlas as a child slave, watts likely grew up or at least lived amongst the atlas elite and had a respected career with opportunities.

there’s definitely material there to make the distinction between them, that’s for sure. i think, already, cinder is the more sympathetic one of the two, so it wouldn’t be that hard to push it further, either.

#rwby #rwby8 #rwby spoilers #cinder fall #arthur watts #cinder redemption #tempoaryblogformightyjensblog #ask.strqyr

[rubyneo]

literally screaming and crying and throwing up thinking about cindemption

#FIRE NOT AS IN DESTRUCTION BUT AS IN THE HEARTH. #cj.txt #spiralling out of control!!!!

[fadedneonzzz]

Would redemption ruin Cinder’s character? Or better yet: would it benefit her character if she does get redeemed? I think this is a fair argument to bring up when talking about redemption arcs in general, not just for Cinder, as for some villains it wouldn’t make sense for them to make a complete 180 and all of a sudden become good. For some it does work, but only in cases where we’ve seen at least some traces of good in them no matter how sparse.

For example, while Emerald was far from a good person, she at least showed signs of not wanting to be in Salem’s circle, she was in it for Cinder and Mercury.

On the opposite extreme we have Tyrian, someone who was a serial killer and kidnapper before Salem even found him. He is committed to Salem’s cause and takes extreme pleasure in doing it.

Then we have the 3 villains people want redemption for the most: Cinder, Mercury, and Neopolitan. These 3 have committed heinous acts against not only team RWBY, but the kingdoms as a whole. However since we know their backstories and why they’re evil in the first place, it’s easier to sympathize with them. Despite this, none of them have really shown any remorse or regret for what they have done, in fact they seem to enjoy inflicting pain onto others. Also none of them have expressed any desire to be redeemed either. Mercury and Neo another discussion for another time, but I just wanted to point out that they’re not any more or less deserving of redemption than Cinder, at least from a moral standpoint. From a character standpipe we can argue all day about that.

Now Cinder is both mercilessly evil and selfish, yet has shown multiple times that this stems from her underlying pain and sadness. It’s understandable why people see her in a more sympathetic light, especially when you realize the world turned its back on Cinder and it really felt like she never had a chance to be a good person. On the other hand she has shown no desire to be helped or saved by anyone. Some may argue her best moments are when she cold, calculating, and ruthless. And I agree, V3 and V8 had some of Cinder’s best moments and it was when she went 100% boss ass bitch. Some prefer this to the more sad and afraid Cinder, and that’s a fair stance to take.

Now from a character standpoint, she’s a great character and villain as of V8, for her to have a sudden change of heart would be very out of character for her. The key word there being sudden. In my opinion, the people who think Cinder redemption would ruin her character think that redemption would mean she’d suddenly become a better person in the span of a few episodes (if not feel free to correct me). For a character like Cinder where the best kind of redemption I can see for her is “she’s still an asshole….but at least she’s not working for Salem anymore”. Or simply giving her the choice to be something other than be Salem’s slave, like give her the chance to try to make up for what she has done. Honestly, I think it would only really ruin her character if Cinder became buddy buddy with everyone she previously tried to kill on multiple occasions. And it would make everyone who did forgive her look just as bad in the process.

In conclusion I think it’s very interesting that people want different things for Cinder as a character. It really speaks volumes of how deep and complex of a character she really is if people still want redemption for her. Me personally, I just want an ending for her other than death because she only really became evil because no one was willing to help her. I just don’t get the pure blooded “I’d rather die than be saved” villain vibe from Cinder, that seems to fit Tyrian, Watts, and Salem the most. Yet at the same she doesn’t seem to be the person who makes her issues known to everyone. It’s really weird, but interesting because it could really go either way.

#rwby #cinder fall #emerald sustrai #tyrian callows #mercury black #neopolitian (rwby) #salem #cindemption #if you think it will hurt her character just tell me #thins is for discussion #rwby thoughts #long post

[karinta-agogobell-unified]

Now this post is just for me.

I want Cinder to choose to be a less shitty person. I really hope it happens; I really hope that’s the direction that the writers take her in. It would be incredibly cathartic to see her come to grips with the fact that her quest for power won’t satisfy her in the end, and make her way in the world in a less cruel, less destructive manner. But I can’t be certain of anything with this show, and I don’t want to get my hopes up too much and then be disappointed when my expectations aren’t fulfilled.

#rwby #cindemption