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ladykakata · 6 years

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I go off on GOT

[NOTE: I keep trying to add the Jon-Sansa hug GIFS but Tumblr REFUSES to let me save or post with them. It’s fucking annoying]

*Rubs face*

Auntie LK is annoyed and she is going to take it out on y’all. I’m gunna go ahead and go off on Sansa hate, Jonsa, Dark Sansa and all that shit so hang onto your assholes.

SO. The new promos. There’s been the idea for a long time, since S6 really, of the idea of Sansa plain murdering Jon or Jonsa becoming canon since, well, Jon and Sansa are now maternal cousins rather than agnate siblings (as in, siblings with the same father but different mother).

S6 had Sansa and Jon reunite for the first time since S1. A lot of heavy shit has happened, some of it they share (like losing their father and brother Robb, Winterfell getting a bad squid infection via Theon being a little bitch) but also stuff they didn’t share (an absolute battering and rape for Sansa, literally being stabbed to literal death for Jon). For Jon, who just came back from the motherfuckin’ dead 10 minutes ago and decided he had enough of this shit he’s out, this is pure shock.

For Sansa? This is pure RELIEF. Remember, Jon is the FIRST family member she has seen since the death of Ned. She hasn’t seen her mother (who is dead GOOD LAWL god I hate her), her eldest brother, her brat little sister, or her two littlest brothers since either leaving Winterfell or since Ned’s beheading. Not only that, he’s the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch as far as she knows, so he’s in a position of power that is untouched by machinations of the South. Who is in power? Who cares. The Night’s Watch doesn’t deal with that shit and Cersei can’t follow her up here. And if Ramsey decides to give chase, it’s more than Jon to fight back.

Look at the hug. She almost cries, listen to the shuddery inhale of breath as she fights that back, she practically falls into him, and once they hug she looks for comfort and support. For Sansa, this is absolute relief. Her ordeal, for the moment, is over. She escaped Ramsey, the rape, the torture. She survived the snow, the river, the chase and being hunted. And now she is safe in the arms of her older brother.

For Jon, he is absolutely stunned to see her. For as much as they didn’t really get along, she’s still his sister, and he said goodbye to his family in Winterfell years ago. Only Benjen went to the Wall, and he disappeared, so Sansa is the first he’s seen in a long time. Hell, Jon almost ran to join Robb in his rebellion, and only just resisted and came back.

Family came for Jon after his resurrection.

After this comes a really important talk. Sansa and Jon’s relationship was never really touched on; Jon and Robb hugged and treated each other as peer-brothers (and it’s fucking CUTE I would CUT SOMEONE to see more bro Jon and Robb!!), Jon and Arya were cute-as-buttons older brother/pint-sized sister, and Jon cared so much about Bran that he bore Catlyn’s cunty comments in order to say goodbye. The only two not explored were Sansa and Rickon. It’s really important to note that Sansa took after Cat. And that meant absorbing her loathing of Jon, something that is talked about. Sansa gets to brass tacks about it:

Sansa : I spent a lot of time thinking about what an ass I was to you. I wish I could change everything. Jon: We were children. Sansa : I was awful, just admit it. Jon : ( chuckles ) You were occasionally awful. I'm sure I can't have been great fun. Always sulking in the corner while the rest of you played. Sansa : Can you forgive me? Jon : There's nothing to forgive. Sansa : Forgive me. Jon : All right. All right, I forgive you.

Sansa knows she was wrong, wants to make it right, and does not allow Jon to sweep it away. She is determined to make sure he knows she knows she was wrong. It can be interpreted that she wants to secure his forgiveness and is in fact ordering it out of him, but I don’t see it that way. She knows she fucked up, and she wants to make it right. The following conversation re-enforces the fact they’re family. Jon even says ‘ If I don't watch over you, Father's ghost will come back and murder me’ (I’d pay good money to see Ned come back and give Jon a bollocking actually). Sansa brings up Winterfell, enforces it’s THEIR home and it’s for their family. She wants the Boltons out, but Jon came back from the dead 10 minutes ago and has Had Enough Of This Shit And Is Very Tired. Sansa lets it go temporarily.

Throughout the ep, and into the next, the idea is enforced that Jon and Sansa are brother and sister, and that Jon is Ned's son. Sure, currently that's kinda funny considering he isn't by blood, but the sentiment is true; Jon is every inch Ned's boy, and Sansa clearly feels safe with him, she even says so to Brienne:

Sansa : Jon isn't Davos, the Red Woman or Stannis for that matter.Jon is Jon.He's my brother.He'll keep me safe. I trust him.

Here is a thing I think a lot of people are missing. Yes, Sansa trusts Jon. She says it herself. But why, as Brienne countered, did she not tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale? Why did she outright counter Jon publicly? Why not wait?

The thing is, Jon is Ned's son. AND NED STARK IS FUCKING SHIT AT KEEPING SECRETS. Ned Stark is honourable to a FAULT, it's what got him Mcfreakin' killed. Jon is the Starkiest Stark that ever Starked, and Sansa KNOWS that letting him in on critical plans is a bad fucking idea. She's already learned from Pety 'I would honestly tongue a cat's asshole for fun' Baelish that one never shows all one's cards. But sharing a card with someone as upright and see-through as Jon? Might as well cut your own throat and be done with it.

Why publicly confront him? I never believed for a second that Sansa was displeased at Jon's sudden elevation to King in the North. When it was announced, he was stunned, and to me it looked like he was looking to Sansa to see if a) it was real, and b) wtf Sansa what do I do.

He's been suddenly promoted before, but the Night's Watch was different, and perhaps he's having flashbacks as to how THAT went. Hell, everyone was pissed before Lyanna Mormont straightened her big girl knickers and said 'Listen up you lil shits Jon is good King Jon 303AC 4lyf'. This is all good for Sansa. She has Winterfell back, Ramsey Bolton is more than dead, Jon has the support of the Northern lords firmly when they told them to eat a dick not too long ago. Everything feels great. Plus, in the North, she doesn’t have to deal with backstabbing political shit.

And then she remembers Littlefinger is there.

Oh fuckbastards.

What to do? While it looks like Littlefinger is getting to her, it’s VERY important to note that, despite being King In Da Norf, Jon is still as humble as ever. Before that, when Winterfell was first reclaimed, Jon noted that Ned and Cat’s room was prepared for Sansa.

Jon : I’m having the lord’s chamber prepared for you. Sansa : Mother and Father’s room? You should take it. Jon : I’m not a Stark. Sansa : You are to me.

Damn right he is, Sansa. Jon mentions they need to trust each other more and kisses her forehead. I think this, after the conversation about Littlefinger, really planted it in Sansa’s mind she’s got to protect Jon from this bastard. Jon can fight the physical and commend men no problem, but psychological shit he has issues with. Hell, Sansa told him outright not to fall for Ramsey’s shit in BOTB and he did anyway. There’s a gulf in Sansa’s Southern-trained psychological way of things and Jon’s straightforward hit-it-until-it-stops Northern mind. Both have had their ways beaten into them, so they can’t unlearn, but also can’t see the other’s view.

Okay okay okay. where is Auntie LK going with this? From what I see, Sansa was publicly denouncing Jon’s plans BUT doing so to keep him safe. The plan to give the Last Hearth and Karhold to loyal Lords? That’s a Southern tactic AND good sense. HOWEVER ... in this instance, Jon was right. The important think to note that both holds HAVE a new Lord and Lady waiting for them. And they are children.

These babs!

If anyone knows about a child having to bear the supposed sins of their parents, it’s Jon. He felt the weight of Ned’s supposed infidelity, even if it was absolutely no fault of their own. These children are terrified, Alys visibly swallows and tries to breathe properly. Hell, it’s scary when Sansa was all for taking their homes and Jon mentioned executing people, they probably worried they were next. However, Jon simply asks for allegiance. And that was a wise call; the idea of redistributing at first got a high then got a mixed to low response, given the chatter in the room and Davos looking down.

Don't for a second think I'm shitting on Sansa. From her point of view, this absolutely makes sense; if people stab you in the back, GITFO bitch. But that Southern way of thinking just will not work as well in the more traditional North. In this instance, Jon was in the right, and it's understandable how he is frustrated with Sansa openly challenging him. I think Sansa was trying to shore up any potential future betrayal, and simply didn't make the right calculation. She looks at Littlefinger in this scene, who likes the argument.

In this instance, Jon is right. These are children, and he rules like a good King; with a firm but gentle hand. He makes these kids feel like important grown-ups, spares them, and gives them this sense of awe and majesty. If Daenerys rules with terror and awe with her dragons, and a kind heart for the underdog, Jon wants to rule with practical kindness. They thought they were going to lose their homes, or even their heads, given that Sansa mentioned taking away their Holds and Jon mentioned executing people. Instead, King Jon asked for their word, and they gave it.

Look at what happens after; Jon tells Sansa to stop openly undermining him, Sansa points out that she should give advice and compliments his leadership skills. She tries to get him to see she has advice worth listening to, and he is clearly frustrated and tries to walk away, but she will not let him. To the point of GRABBING him.

She will not let Jon walk away from this. He tries to walk, but she physically makes him stop, and emphasises what she is trying to get through to him:

Sansa : You have to be smarter than Father. You need to be smarter than Robb. I loved them, I miss them, but they made stupid mistakes, and they both lost their heads for it.

To me, this clearly says one thing; Jon, for the love of fucking Old Gods and New Improved Ones, I am trying to keep you safe. She can’t outright say ‘Littlefinger wants to park his thirsty asshole on the Iron Throne and wants me on his lap because I remind him of my mother and he is willing to slaughter you like a sheep to get it’, Jon can’t be trusted with that sort of info. She wants to publicly make it look like she’s plotting against Jon in Littlefinger’s eyes ... but at the same time, make sure that her public outbursts aren’t ACTUALLY damaging her relationship with him. He is too precious. She needs him, and his abilities, but also needs to string Littlefinger along to ensure he doesn’t do something without sharing it with her first. She was dead set against Jon going South. That’s where Cersei can get her mitts on him, that’s walking into the mouth of the dragon and hoping it doesn’t eat him. The only positive for this was suddenly getting Bran and Arya back; she outright hugs Bran, her little brother who was in a coma when she left Winterfell, and even Arya gets a hug despite the pair being the most antagonistic towards each other.

Now. Arya and Sansa had issues. They had issues before Littlefinger littlefingered all over the place. Arya, despite her Southern training, is pretty much a hardcore Northerner, and seeing Sansa’s betrayal letters would have set her off and Littlefinger was banking on that. But when you have a family that TALKS, that has a legit psychic on staff to divine the truth (and Arya literally heard Bran recite the truth), that plan falls up the asshole. Did Sansa truly plan to ever murder Arya, and vice-versa? Honestly, who hasn’t entertained thoughts of murdering their annoying sibling, especially if one thinks the other has fallen to the Dark Side. However, Sansa and in a way Arya’s arcs have been about family. Only family can be trusted. Family will be there when you need them. Family will keep their word and protect you. For Sansa, this is in Stark (heh) contrast to the Lannisters and Baratheons, whom she was so eager to join as true Lords and Ladies. The Lannisters are at each other’s throats when not fucking each other, and the Baratheons tore themselves apart with infighting and backstabbing (and vagina shadowmonsters). The Starks bicker, but they have each other.

If Sansa wanted Jon dead or out of the picture, she wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of making him a cloak that is very similar to Ned Starks’ own. The man she literally saw beheaded in front of her.

Sansa : I made it like the one Father used to wear. As near as I can remember.

Sansa near panics when Jon decides to ride for Dragonstone, she keeps glancing to her right, either in Littlefinger’s direction or directly at him. All the Lords don’t want Jon to go, even his most hardcore supporter Lady Mormont, and Sansa is dead against it. Even when Jon names her Wardeness of the North in his absence, she is still wearing a face of panic.

Me? In charge? Oh. Uh.

Does Sansa enjoy being in power? Who doesn’t. Do I anticipate trouble when Jon returns? If he returned himself, I think the transition would have been smooth. Jon will be impressed by how well Sansa is preparing the north, and she will pretty much still be Wardeness while he is King; think of Sansa as the Prime Minister that gets shit done while Jon is the figurehead and commands the armies and does power deals. The addition of Daenerys is a biiiiiiig complication, especially with Jon boatsexin’ her all the way.

Which brings us to the hug. While I do believe Sansa is relieved to see him back alive, the arrival of Dany is a complication and now she has someone she needs to suss out and see if this person is a threat to her or the newly reunited Starks.

Do I think a Starkbowl is coming? Hell to the fucking no. The ENTIRE POINT of Sansa’s arc is that FAMILY CAN BE TRUSTED, FAMILY IS THERE TO PROTECT YOU. The biggest point for her is that Daenerys is not family. She’s Jon’s girlfriend for the moment, sure, but not family. She’s Essosi-minded, she’s not a Northerner for fucking sure. At this point, the issue will be the outing of Jon’s heritage.

But what does that really mean? Sure, Ned isn’t his blood father. But Ned raised him, he was raised with all the Starks as a sibling. Cunty Cat made him feel lesser, but everyone still treated him like a brother. Even Sansa. Everyone is zero’ing in on the father aspect, but A STARK IS HIS MOTHER. HE STILL HAS STARK HERITAGE. As Lady Mormont rightfully pointed out, ‘He has Ned Stark’s blood in his veins’. And he does; Ned and Lyanna are full-blooded siblings, and share the same wolf blood.

I hoep to hope, and I think it will happen, that Sansa will silently recalculate what the news will mean when others react, but as far as she and most certainly Bran and Arya are concerned, Jon is still their big brother. The big brother that said goodbye before Winterfell despite the coma, the brother that came to take back Winterfell despite the Bolton’s vile threats, the brother that choke-slammed a snake for wanting to bang them because they reminded them of their mother, the brother that rode out to save his little Rickon despite the odds, the brother that gifted them Needle, the brother that was willing to overlook past nastiness.

Jon Snow, the King in the North, the blood of Ned, the White Wolf ... he is their brother, and always will be. The gold/silver of Targaryen yielded to the coal of Stark, and Jon is the fucking Starkiest Stark that ever Starked.

Sansa is not going to backstab her brother. Fuck outta here with that shit.

LK out.

#Sansa #Game of thrones #GOT #Jonsa #Jonaerys #Dark Sansa #Starkbowl

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ladymelisande · 2 years

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Pity that the Starkbowl tag is just shit about the shit show written mostly by Salsa stans than anyone actually discussing the possible suscession crisis that is coming in the books.

#starkbowl #asoiaf

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occupyvenus · 7 years

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The whole Sansa vs Arya clusterfuck of s7 was talked about enough I think, so instead of writing a long ass post about the entire issue I will focus on one thing that strikes me as particularly weird: One of the most baffling writing choices this season (and there are many of them) within the most offending plot of this season, arya vs sansa, -ugh- must be that Arya is so clearly wrong from the audience's(!) point of view. I’m not going to discuss whether Arya herself has a “reason” to distrust Sansa like this, but other than devoted sansa-haters most people agree that Arya’s behaviour is way out of line. Even dudes on reddit (!) came to Sansa’s defense. Because the narrative has given us no reason to believe that Sansa is working against Jon.

Both Sansa and Arya are pov characters we love and support and root for. Story-writing 1.0.1 demands that this conflict is relatable from both sides. We should be able to share some of Arya’s suspicions. We should at least have a bit of doubt that Arya might be onto something …. Instead, Sansa mentions Jon every episode, talks about missing him, she declines the lords suggestion to take the crown herself, she’s worried about Jon(!) losing his(!) army. She has shown nothing but disdain and irritation towards LF. I love-love-love book!Arya, I love pre-s7-show!Arya but ooc-D&D-psycho-fake-s7!Arya is the sole source of this conflict. I know I’ll get some shit for saying this, but it’s the truth. Unless we get a twist of her playing LF (unknown to Sansa), which I still hope for but aren’t too sure about, she is acting nothing but hostile and irrational. Especially since she found herself in a similar situation as kingsLanding!Sansa when being Tywin’s cupbearer. She knows what it’s like to “serve” the enemy to survive. She should be (book!Arya definitely would be) smart enough to know that Sansa didn't write that stupid letter to betray her family. Show!Arya should be able to see through LF’s schemes after all her training in Bravos. Book!Arya loves her family and her home more than anything else in this world, she wouldn’t alienate her sister because of the petty childhood fights they had. Both of them would embrace each other with open arms and would try to really make this work, even if they still bumped heads and fought every now and then. I’m still hoping that this mess will have a satisfying solution, but for now I’m afraid I’ll have to take it at face-value. Arya really believes that Sansa would betray Jon, she is using that letter as leverage and she does play directly into LF’s hands by doing it. It hurts me to write it, but ... we’ll find out on sunday.

Either way, this kind of narrative “Main character A doubts main character B’s trustworthiness.” usually works like this:

A distrusts B. “No, No, No B would never.” We witness B doing something slightly suspicious “What? Nooo…. fuck is A actually onto something here?” A and B keep quarreling. The misunderstanding gets resolved when the tension reaches it’s climax “puh. So happy both A and us were wrong about B. But then, I knew she wouldn’t *insert whatever*”

I’ve been scratching my head as to why they haven’t used Sansa’s “unclear allegiance”, “established” in the s6 finale and the between-seasons pr-campaign in this “plot” as well. This conflict would be a lot more interesting and a lot less frustrating if we could actually emphasize with Arya’s position and had at least some doubt about Sansa as well. It would have been rather easy to do that. But instead, as mentioned above, they have pretty much made it clear from the first episode that Sansa doesn’t give a fuck about LF anymore and that she is supportive of Jon and him being king. They might not always agree, but we have seen no indication that she would actually work against him.

Why? Why not make Arya’s perspective in this argument not more relatable? They actually laid the groundwork for this with all the Jon vs Sana - ugh - talk pre-season, only to completely undermine this by Sansa shooting him hearteyes, calling him a good king, defending his decisions in front of LF (Jon is right, the Lords should look towards the enemy to the North) and being a general supportive “sister” to him. As a jonsa-fan I would have hated it, but they could have easily keep this tension - Sansa’s unclear loyalty, LF whispering in her ears - up in the s7 Jon/Sansa interactions to make this following ridiculous sister-conflict more interesting. This would be far more engaging if we were questioning Sansa’s objections as well. I would have hated it, I would have never believed that Sansa would actually betray him, but planting just a little bit of doubt would have improved the story. I would actually be able to comprehend where this conflict is coming from.

As counterintuitive as this may sound the only reason I see for this is to make Sansa look more sympathetic. As I said before, minus the usual suspects, everyone is going “wtf is going on with Arya???”. We are supposed to feel sorry for Sansa and her situation in WF right now. (Not Arya’s.) I’m not sure what’s the reason for this, do they want to endear her to audience knowing that she was the most hated character on the show until now? Will she really go against Jon next season (please don’t), after finding out about r+l=j and the whole boatbang and kneeling fiasco and they want to make sure we still have some sympathy-points left so we don’t hate her for that decision? Do they want to raise her fan-favourite character status because she will end up with the hero of the story 👀 ? (The last thing would explain why the jon vs sansa “plot” was never really developed between the two characters themselves. Should they fall in love and end up together they can’t write in some convoluted conflict to disturb their relationship before being separated for so long. To keep their connection going over the season they have to be a team. Thus the originally anticipated starkbowl was over before it even began)

When looking at the general perception of Sansa’s character and how this season, especially this stupid as fuck starkbowl-sister-edition, have influenced it I noticed that it changed for the better. Some people started to love her better after seeing her kick ass as lady of winterfell, some people like her better because she openly sassed LF and quite a lot of people went “I never liked Sansa, but why is arya being sooo mean? She doesn’t deserve that!”. Not that I personally agree with this rhetoric, but being the “undeserving victim” of Arya’s “irrational hostility” definitely managed to endear her to the audience. I’ll say it one more time, there were actual Reddit(!) threads taking Sansa’s side against Arya. People defending Sansa. On Reddit. This whole betting sisters against each other stinks of the misogynistic writing choices we’ve become so familiar with and I’m in no way happy about it, nor do I agree with it, but maybe that was their intention behind this? To make Sansa look good? At least going by the things I saw online and read in several reviews. Almost no one is hating on Sansa anymore, because they are so busy defending her. I know what that sounds like and I don’t want to elevate her character by “hating” on Arya, even though some people will accuse me of that. There would have surely been better ways to make the audience like Sansa more, without throwing Arya’s character under the bus for example, I’m just saying that this stupid starkbowl definitely seemed to have had that effect. Again, there is absolutely nothing about this “plot point” I like (unless it turns out that Arya has been playing LF all along, crosses fingers and prays to all deities on this planet). Just to make this abundantly clear.

Take all this however you like, I’m not sure what to make of this observation myself, but it was just something I noticed and wanted to share. @fedonciadale this isn’t exactly the break-down I promised but since we recently talked about it and this was all I could squeeze out of my brain ;p

#jonsa #sansa stark #stark sisters #starklings #got s7 #starkbowl #long post #really not sure how I should tag this without getting in trouble #but well here we go #my stuff #just an observation #not even really an opinion #so please don't come for my life

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ladystarks · 7 years

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I love how the highly anticipated Starkbowl ended up being just Sansa and Jon sniping at each other for a few minutes

Y'all thought she was really gonna turn on him? Shame

#jon snow #sansa stark #actuallyjonsa #jonsa #game of thrones #got spoilers #starkbowl #more like bickerbowl

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sirius-lives · 7 years

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last thing, can you this power-hungry sansa who:

wishes to share happy moments with jon

readily gives bran the control as Lord of Winterfell

actually respects the northerners' decision of naming Jon king and not bran

this starkbowl, man, this starkbowl

#mine #text post #sansa stark #starkbowl #got spoilers #jon x sansa

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bisansastarks · 7 years

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StarkbowlTM is when Sansa wishes Jon was here and Jon fights anyone who even mentions Sansa in a romantic or sexual light.

#actuallyjonsa #jonsa #Starkbowl

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thosestories · 7 years

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Am I the only one who enjoyed last episode’s Starkbowl?

I know this episode has sparked many discussions regarding Sansa’s loyalty to Jon. Let me just say I love Sansa, she’s one of my (if not the most) favourite characters just because how real and flawed not-a-mary-sue she is. And people are saying that this episode she didn’t do anything wrong against Jon and that she woud never take Winterfell from him and Arya was being bitchy for no reason with her cause Sansa’s too perfect for that and also she has Petyr wrapped around her finger and blah blah blah. Please, would you just STOP?

Clearly, Sansa was making a half-assed attempt to defend Jon in this episode. To me it even souded like she was trying to passively let everyone know that she disagrees with his decisions but she just sits there and does what he says because a dutiful sister’s supposed to do just that. She was trying to look better and humble in their eyes. Something like playing hard-to-get for the sake of appearances when in fact all you want to do is surrender to the other person. I’m not saying she always wanted this, I’m pretty sure she was happy for Jon to be the KITN and that she loves her cousin, but now that he’s gone and far from her eyes I think her resolve in not feeling jealous and entited is slacking, what with Littlefinger whispering to her ear every day that she is the one supposed to rule the North. And granted, she’s doing a great job at that, which is why the other lords recognize her as a competent ruler and unconsciously support those feelings of entitlement in her. But just look at her expression when she notices Arya watching her - she knows her sister’s not liking it and immediately regrets not trying to be more convincing, which brings us to their next conversation where she tries to remedy that, saying things like “what did Jon expect” and “I’m doing my best here but there’s only so much I can do.” Still, Arya’s not buying it. Also, I think it’s good that Arya confronted her about it in an honest (if a little aggressive) manner.

I didn’t like Arya in the beginning of the series. To me she was just a bit too arrogant. But she’s matured and I think she’s much less bratty now. When Sansa says to her “just say what you mean” I don’t think she expected Arya to counterattack like that, saying upfront what she thought. She then proceeds to make another attempt at convincing her sister that she’s doing her best to hold the North together, which you simply cannot do by cutting every lord’s head off (valid point, plus I LOVE that sarcastic face Sophie pulled as if she was making fun of little Arya being bloodthirsty? It’s so bitchy and perfect) and once she finishes that speach about how they got Winterfell you can see how hard in her head she wishes Arya to finally fall for it. But then Arya replies that it’s not Jon she’s holding the North for, it’s herself, to which Sansa says how could she think such a horrible thing. Now, that sounded unconvincing even to me. But let’s continue: Arya says right to her face that she sees her struggle, Sansa doesn’t want to think it but the thought just doesn’t go away, to which Sansa has no more clever answers. Can I just say that I think Arya is right? Cause she was trained to spot a liar in the House of Black and White, how can you possibly say she’s just being a bitch to her sister with nothing to back it up for the sake of being a bitch?

Now, what does this show? Does this show that Sansa is a bad character and that she will betray Jon? Of course not! What it shows is that although she’s developed as a character, she is still flawed and she can’t help having a bit selfish nature, even though she doesn’t want to have those selfish thoughts. She’s flawed just like Dany with her double standards or Jon with his I’m-so-honorable-it-got-me-killed attitude. It shows that after what she’s been through, she’s finally thinking for herself. And it’s good that Arya’s there to remind her that she shouldn’t get too carried away. The way I see it she’s like Sansa’s conscience, threatening to bite her in the ass if she doesn’t do the right thing. And that’s very good. Plus I just LOVE how Maisie and Sophie played this scene and how they delivered their lines. They have a great chemistry on set and you can see they’re enjoying attacking one another here. But that’s most likely because they’re great friends in real life.

Also, can we just appreciate the scheming bitch face Sansa makes after Arya confronting her about being a princess who liked nice things cause it made her feel better than everyone? She’s like bitch you wanna do this bring it on xD.

To conclude, I don’t think it’s fair to defend Sansa as a pure innocent who never wanted anything for herself. That would be an insult to the depth of her character. She does have ambitions and it adds a delicious hint of darkness to the mix. As GRRM said, it's about human heart being at conflict with itself, so let’s just appreciate the writing and stop being in denial about her. Her character has never been this sexy and I’d really like to see her interact with Jon like this, just because it would add a very interesting new dynamic to jonsa.

#game of thrones #sansa stark #arya stark #winterfell #drama #dark sansa #got #jonsa #starkbowl

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forgottenroyal · 6 years

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As a writer, let me explain something to you. The end result is not more important than how you get there.

I’ll reiterate. Just because an end result is “good”, “happy”, “awesome”, etc. does not mean that the events that led up to the event was good writing.

Badass end result =/= good writing.

How you get to that result, is just as important as the result itself.

#game of thrones #got #starkbowl #ooc #writer's problems #bad writing #/i put it in the got tag cause fuck season 7 #/at least where the starks are concerned

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jonsameta · 7 years

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place your bets: starkcest or starkbowl?

Welcome to our first @jonsameta roundtable! This is a feature we hope to run for the next seven weeks. Here we will discuss an issue of concern from each episode. This week, @winterfellchild @jen-snow and @scullylikesscience weigh in on the question on everyone’s minds: are Jon and Sansa going to fight or fuck? Or, you know, build a healthy and lasting relationship...

@winterfellchild: I'll bet on Starkcest.

For now it’s a work in progress, but I liked what happened: the scene in the Great Hall and what followed… it’s a good start, very realistic.

But before I talk about Starkcest, I want to say this about the Starkbowl that was promised, the “power struggle” that will divide the North: right now it seems nothing more than a few bumps in the road, just what I thought would happen before I saw the episode.I'm not even considering this as a Jonsa shipper, in my opinion living a fairy tale relationship (platonic or romantic doesn’t matter) is not realistic, getting along all times is impossible.

There is a quote about this that I like a lot:

“No relationship is all sunshine, but two people can share one umbrella and survive the storm together.”

I think this is what it’s happening with Jonsa: the storm is inevitable, they do see things differently (as you can see from how they saw the Umber and Karstark issue) but they were able to see each other’s perspective and work through it. If they’ll share the burden of governance they will overcome their differences and succeed in ruling the North as a team.

That said and putting on my shippers googles once again I think the dynamic of their relationships changed. Not entirely, but they seem much more at ease with each other. Before there was the undeniable tension, but also a little awkwardness and shyness, but now while the tension is still there the awkwardness is almost gone.

In season 6, many times Jon looked at Sansa like he was trying to understand her and he often he seemed surprised by what he saw. Now (from what little we have seen of them so far) he looks at her and he sees the strong woman she is.

And again in season 6 Sansa looked at Jon with determination in her eyes, she tried so hard to be his equal because she wanted to be heard not just seen. While I still see her determination, I now see more sweetness, more kindness in her eyes.

I think this is the biggest change for me: in season 6 Jon showed more kindness than Sansa, now they both show it. Jon didn’t like that she questioned his decisions in front of others but when they were alone he debated with her, he showed her his vulnerability a little:

SANSA: You're good at this, you know. JON: At what? SANSA: At ruling. JON: No. SANSA: You are.You are.

And he cared about her opinion of him:

JON: You think I’m Joffrey? SANSA: You're as far from Joffrey as anyone I've ever met. JON: Thank you.

Like I said Jonsa is still a work in progress so it wasn't all positive, Jon asked Sansa to trust him last season but it looks like he still has some troubles to remember that trust is a two-way street.

JON: And how should I be smarter? By listening to you?

Yes! You should listen to her! You were both right about Lord Umber and Lady Karstark, after all.

@jen-snow: I’m also betting on Starkcest.

I’ve never believed in Starkbowl and after this first episode I’m confident that I’m absolutely right about that. I think both the Jonsa scene on the ramparts and Sansa’s scene with Littlefinger have busted the Starkbowl myth.

Before I move on to Jon and Sansa’s interactions, I’d like to address Jon’s reaction to Sansa undermining him.

I think it’s important that as soon as Jon indicates that his decision is final, Sansa no longer tries to contradict him. She doesn’t agree with his decision, but she respects his authority. I liked that while Jon was clearly frustrated by her questioning his reasoning, he didn’t take it out on her in front of their bannermen.

And Jon definitely has a point. While Sansa can certainly voice her opinion, just like any other lord or lady in that hall, having the King being contradicted by one of his closest advisors just doesn’t look good.

But I believe there’s more to it. I think Jon doesn’t feel confident in his role as King yet and that he’s experiencing some guilt over Sansa being overlooked in favour of him. So when Sansa contradicts him, this touches a sore spot. That’s why he was so angry about it. He believes Sansa doesn’t trust his judgement and that leaves him feeling a little less certain about his abilities.

But as soon as Sansa recognizes this insecurity, she tries to reassure him. I absolutely loved her saying “You’re as far from Joffrey as anyone I’ve ever met.” Comparing Jon to Joffrey is not only slowly nudging the audience toward seeing him as a potential love interest for Sansa, this is probably also the moment Sansa fully acknowledges that Jon is easily the best man she’s ever met.

I really liked how the scene parallelled Ned and Cat’s scene in 1X01. They keep throwing these parallels at us. This simply cannot be coincidence. Even if the leaks are all true, I’m convinced that Jonsa will be endgame.

I also agree that their dynamic has changed. They have indeed become more familiar with each other.

I’d like to point out how soft and tender Sansa was with Jon when she was telling him that she believes in him. I don’t think we’ve ever seen her looking at anyone the way she was looking at Jon when she told him he’s good at ruling and that he’s nothing like Joffrey.

Nice detail: she criticized him for trying to protect her, but at the same time she’s so fiercely trying to protect him!

She clearly feels more comfortable around him and now that she’s safely back home, no longer focussed on her revenge and on taking their home back, I believe Sansa is starting to fall in love with Jon.

Jon’s behaviour on the other hand was odd. While on the one hand he seemed less awkward around Sansa, somehow he was also trying to keep his guard up. Was this simply because of him being angry, because of his frustration with Sansa’s behaviour?

I don’t think so. Instead of facing her when they argued, he kept walking away from her. He was also avoiding eye contact, as if he was afraid of giving something away. I believe Jon is beginning to acknowledge that his feelings for Sansa are not so brotherly.

I might be completely wrong, but after this scene I would honestly not be surprised if we saw a kiss next episode.

@scullylikesscience: I’m going to say a little of both...

... but not in the way people assume. It might appear on the surface (to some, or many) that Sansa is going to do just what Jon wrongly accused her of in the premiere: undermining him. In S7E2, Jon apparently has to deal with a revolt. I’m pretty sure it’s the Vale, angry at his proposition to head to Dragonstone to negotiate for dragonglass. Sansa already made clear to Brienne that they need to keep the Knights of the Vale at Winterfell. I’m guessing she’s going to make a deal with the devil to keep them there after they threaten to break ties because Jon’s going to go chat with a Targaryen. (Also, Lord Royce standing up to speak out against the Karstarks and Umbers?! Sit the fuck down, ser. You ain’t a northman.)

Jon might not be too happy about what Sansa has offered to do about the Vale, but I’m sure he’s going to listen to her even if he’s wary. We’re going to find out just what Jon’s opinion of LF is, loud and clear, by means of harsh words and a chokeout based on the trailer. When Jon and Sansa part company, she’ll be left to take charge of the North. As we saw in the premiere, they have fundamentally different views on how best to deal with things. Sansa might end up making pragmatic decisions in Jon’s absence that we all know he wouldn’t go for. It might seem to audiences that she’s going to head down the dark Cersei path.

Sansa hates Cersei Lannister. In the books, she vows to herself that she won’t ever be like her. But Sansa learned a lot from Cersei. She learned the best way to protect yourself is to remove threats and soundly defeat your enemies by any means necessary. This Cersei line is going to sum up Sansa’s storyline in S7:

What good is power if you can’t protect the ones you love?

Sansa is not selfish and power-hungry the way Cersei is. She only wants to defeat those who deserve it and protect those she loves. She’s not cruel or heartless. She would never act against the innocent. She would never blow up a building with hundreds of people inside. But she still may appear to go against Jon’s way of doing things, the good and honorable and trusting way he learned at the Ned Stark School of Getting Yourself Killed. It’s not going to be Starkbowl like the way it’s been promoted. Sansa isn’t out to rival Jon. She’s not out for a power grab. She wants Jon to rule. She believes he’s a good ruler. She admires him.

Personally, I think that whole Karstark and Umber thing (not that it won’t necessarily lead to something else later on) was to set up a heated disagreement between Jon and Sansa that highlighted their markedly different (yet valid) points of view in front of other people, particularly LF. Then have Jon win the argument and carry out his decision in such a noble way that Sansa somewhat softens and looks at him with admiration, which then leads to their private discussion afterwards.

Which leads me to Starkcest Jonsa. What surprised me was how changed Jon and Sansa seem to be regarding their interactions. The awkwardness of S6 is gone. While Sansa was steely and had her guard up, even with Jon, she doesn’t seem to be that way anymore around him. She may not always agree with his decisions, but she trusts him and she feels safe with him. Jon is much more confident in his position, at least in front of his men. Only with Sansa does he let on that he continues to doubt himself.

The way Sansa softens, her eyes and her voice, reveal a lot about the healing she’s gone through since taking back Winterfell, and her feelings toward Jon. She wants him to trust himself, to believe in himself, but she also wants him to accept her help. That is all she’s trying to do. She doesn’t want to undermine him, she doesn’t begrudge him his position as king. She doesn’t wish he’d step aside so she can be queen instead. She just wants to help him be a smarter king, a king who knows how to see the traps ahead and avoid them, a king who won’t get his head chopped off.

When talking about Cersei, she tried to get him to understand just how dangerous Cersei is, just how ruthless. Sansa doesn’t want him to ignore the threat Cersei poses. But then Jon just shoots that asshole line about admiring her. That’s not what she was trying to say, but she admits she learned a lot from Cersei. She learned how to play the game, she learned the tactics a woman can use to hold onto power, and defeat any threat.

Jon clearly reacted to this with disdain, and even what looked like anger. He’s not ruthless. He’s not a player. He’s a straight shooter. So was Ned. Jon is focused on the Night King, but that doesn’t mean Cersei isn’t a real threat or LF isn’t a real threat. Sansa knows this and she wants to protect him from these threats, but also protect him from his own naivety.

Jon is someone Sansa loves, and she’ll wield whatever power she has to protect him. She finally got her home back and part of her family, and no doubt hopes and prays the rest of her family returns to her. She’s going to do whatever it takes to never lose them again, even if that means going against Jon’s wishes, even if it means employing tactics she learned from Cersei Lannister’s School of Blowing Up Your Enemies.

While Sansa looked Jon in the eye, he continued to either turn and walk away from her, or avoid looking at her. But she kept forcing eye contact. Physically grabbing him and turning him around to face her. Repeating her assurances and taking steps towards him, staring at him until he’d look her in the face. Sansa wants to connect with him. But unlike S6, when Jon was all long gazes and forehead kissing, he is different now. He’s the one who’s guarded and a bit steely toward her. But in those moments when they were face to face, Sansa pleading with him softly and sweetly, Jon started to let down his guard.

For all this hyped “power struggle” we got during promotion, just to be greeted with their premiere scenes completely erases the chances of Starkbowl. The “definite tension” is something else entirely. These two are catching feelings, and it’s obvious. While she is in that peaceful phase of unawarely growing into it, I think he knows he’s catching feelings. Hence his guarded demeanor. Jon has yet to appreciate just how clever Sansa is and that her advice is worth gold. Sansa loves Jon and doesn’t want him to have the same fate as Ned and Robb, and she’s going to do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn’t happen. Even if she goes about it in a way Jon and his Stark honor would never approve of.

Jonsa, with a huge side helping of angst.

Many thanks to our contributors for taking the time to write up their thoughts! Next week, a discussion on Jon strangling Littlefinger to death :)... if that comes to pass... fingers crossed!

#jonsa #jon x sansa #jonsameta #jonsa meta #starkbowl #starkcest is coming #jonsameta roundtable #got s7e1 #show

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