#that talk they have feels kind of like an absolution for nmj doesn't it

[br-disaster]

Nie Mingjue's Fatal Journey crying scenes appreciation post

There's no way I wouldn't make this post, but it ended up way longer than I intended.

Fighting with Huaisang

When is this man not tearing up?

This fight is so important for Huaisang's character development and the movie's themes, with Huaisang being ready to challenge and question the Nie ways and Mingjue doing his best to uphold those traditions and keep the peace through the only way he knows how.

But it's still hard to be challenged like this and to face the possibility that everything you've ever known might not be right, actually.

And this gif specifically is from the moment Huaisang questions if Mingjue even knows what they're there to fight and what this supposed great evil that will come to Qinghe if they fail to balance their blades even is. Mingjue has no answer, of course, I suppose he was only taught this and never had reason to question it.

But Huaisang is also talking about the disciples they already 'lost' at this point of the movie, and he says something along the lines of " You don't know anything, you only know how to bring them here to die" and that does it. Because it's both "you can't follow these rules blindly when they rely on sacrificing people" and "you've changed and I don't trust your judgement on these matters anymore".

And as he says it, Mingjue looks at their disciples and he sees the puppets for a moment. And Huaisang just questioned if the other disciples were really attacked by puppets.

So that's a big moment and Huaisang is right, of course, but he doesn't have a confirmation that this is the result of Mingjue's health deterioration yet, so he keeps pushing. And Mingjue doesn't really have a counter argument because he knows what's going on with him, but it must be very scary to hear it from the person you care about the most and realize just how much you're being affected.

(Actually, Mingjue has one counter argument and that is "Well, I am at least trying to do something while you're painting and living a carefree life", and he's not wrong either. Huaisang is right and rightfully harsh, but this is the first time he's being confronted with these difficult choices and all their family history. He can reflect on and question it, but his brother has been meking those hard decisions since he was 14, when did he ever had a break to question and change things?)

Which leads us to

The Talk

After seeing his brother sacrifice himself for him at the bridge, and then seeing Mingjue be so vulnerable and lost, that anger from their fight is gone. They can meet in the middle with "You are right, I wasn't thinking straight, this is not a long term solution and I've failed at changing our ways" and "It's not your fault, you did everything you could but you're not responsible for this situation" and it's very beautiful and heartbreaking.

Mingjue is so remorseful, both because he has condemned Huaisang to die with him and because he feels like he failed everyone and everything (even if he doesn't seem to know what he could have done differently to avoid all this).

And Huaisang's reaction in this scene is so calm it made me think this Huaisang is somewhat used to his brother displaying vulnerability around him. This isn't book NMJ with all his victories, this isn't a man who never let the Unclean Realm be conquered and who could afford to keep Huaisang far away from the war. This is a man who was attacked and subdued in his own home, who had to send Huaisang to the hands of the people who killed their father.

This Huaisang doesn't have reasons to see Mingjue as this unmovable force, he has seen Mingjue hurt and threatened and fearful; and he's now seeing him remorseful and defeated.

(I'm sure Mingjue telling Huaisang about the fact that he's dying and admiting his mistakes and insecurities is something new, especially considering their previous fight, but this Huaisang doesn't take it as a shock, because he knows his brother is only human and there's only so much he can handle. He even, like, explicitly says this)

And so he assumes this calm, reassuring and empathetic posture, because that's what his brother is asking for. And it's the most beautiful thing, Huaisang has so much love for him, so much empathy. And this is Mingjue's reaction to his brother's reassurance that it's okay if they have to die there:

I'm sure Huaisang is still processing Mingjue's "I only forced you to practice because I'll die soon", but he's so good at reassuring his brother.

Because Mingjue just told him "I am dying and I'll go as a failure" and Huaisang insisted "None of this is your fault and you did everything you could and more, and if I have to die here with you today, I don't regret a thing, and you shouldn't either".

There's no despair or anger that his brother is only telling him this now, there's only understanding and acceptance and so much love and they really knew what they were doing with this movie.

His people love him

Mingjue is so moved. He just admitted to Huaisang that he's not in peace with his accomplishments, or lack thereof; that he feels ashamed to face his ancestors, having done so little.

So I truly believe Mingjue doesn't consider himself worthy of this much trust and support. (And I can't ignore how this is tied to the Nightless City situation, where he led the men who trusted him with their lives to a dangerous situation and couldn't save any of them).

As we see in the confrontation at Jinlintai, that technically happens after this movie, that is still a very sensitive topic.

And here he has his loyal disciples saying they will follow him yet again, despite his previous 'failures'; just like Huaisang was ready to die with him. They have so much trust in him, and the way he's nodding a little here, just like he was nodding when Huaisang reminded him of everything he's done for their sect since their father died, is like he's convincing himself of it. That he can do this and he can do this right this time.

And yet

He fails again. And I don't even think he knows it was him who killed those disciples, like some people say. He doesn't need to because it doesn't matter. His men, who followed him till the end of the world, are dead again. And so is the hope he had of doing this one right thing before he dies.

Yes, he supressed the saber spirit like he had to, but they're still dead, all of them.

He falls apart, how could he not?

At some point I'm sure Huaisang his holding all his weight because he just gives up. There's only so much loss one can handle and that's way too much.

And look at the way Huaisang is watching him as he realizes something inside Mingjue shattered forever.

There's so much pain in this scene, it looks physically taxing and I hope people gave Wang Yizhou a break after he shot this. I know it's his job and he's phenomenal at it, but this has to mess with your head a little.

And hey, it's a Huaisang crying scene as well. CQL Huaisang only really cries twice. First he watches his brother have a mental breakdown in his arms after unknowingly killing his own disciples; and then as he watches his brother qi deviate and die, while unable to do anything to either stop or comfort him.

(And a lot of people said there's no hesitation on Huaisang's part when he rushes to his brother's aid when Mingjue is hurt on this post's notes, and that's true for book Huaisang too, because he runs towards Mingjue as he is qi deviating, gets hurt in the process, and still keeps calling for him, which makes CQL's decision to have JGY holding him back kind of cruel, tbh, there's not a Huaisang who would run from a hurting Mingjue regardless of the risks

But at least we have this scene.)

And that's it, I guess. There's nothing uplifting to say about this, really. He just went through a lot and kept shouldering everything until he couldn't anymore. I just wish book NMJ had gotten to receive the same love and comfort and acceptance from NHS before he died, I wish he had been able to tell his brother what was actually happening, but thats kind of the purpose of this movie, so I'm just very grateful that it exists.

It's like that post says, it didn't change anything but the love was there, you know? That's how this movie feels for me.

#nie mingjue #nie huaisang #fatal journey #cql #long post #now this is meta with gifs #sorry i can't even attempt to joke a little about this movie everything is just sad from start to finish #the gifs might look worse than the ones on the other post and that's me not knowing how to deal with fatal journey being so dark and green #that talk they have feels kind of like an absolution for nmj doesn't it #book nmj deserved that too #oh yes we have two tearing up scenes #one crying scene #and one bawling his eyes out scene #on a movie that is less than 1 hour and a half long so he's crying the entire time; really

[whetstonefires]

So re: Qin Su's death, one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that she did not just conveniently kill herself due to her high level of distress, at the exact moment most convenient to a person she was super mad at.

Because, frankly, mxtx is not that shitty a writer. She doesn't sweat the details or logistics of things, characters are allowed to coincidentally turn up in the right place to make the plot work and so forth, but these novels are intensely concerned with character motive and internal life. Everyone does things for their own reasons.

People do what the plot requires, but a defining feature of her writing is that everyone is fashioned into the shape of the kind of person who would do that thing in this situation. Sometimes whole scenes or subplots exist mainly to put on display the underlying cognitive patterns that justify as individual choices the kinds of things stock characters routinely do in genre novels, for no reason than that they are The Type Of Character who Does That.

If Qin Su was going to commit suicide about the bad news, there would have been hints that this was the direction her thoughts were trending during the preceding scene, where we're introduced to her reactions. And there aren't.

Her primary reaction is anger. She's scared to death when her husband paralyzes her and puts her on his dismemberment table to interrogate later for the name of her informant. She is contemptuous of his caring almost exclusively about what all these horrors could do to their reputation.

There is nothing in the scene to suggest she would, given the opportunity to denounce him to the cultivation world, choose instead to escape by knife.

The interpretation of this sequence that says she Just Did That really annoys me, because it requires ignoring basically every single piece of information about the character other than the fact that Wei Wuxian always thought since they were kids that she wasn't very bright.

Furthermore, it would be out of character for Jin Guangyao to have knowingly arranged a situation likely to go so badly for him, and wildly unusual for him to get so lucky if he had. This man has shit luck normally.

The sensible thing for him to do, in a universe where Qin Su just conveniently opted for suicide instead of ratting on him, would have been to take the ten to twenty minutes of prep time he had to work with to disappear her the same way he did nmj's head.

This might have required killing her first, since we don't know where he put it, but while I'm sure he didn't want to do that I'm equally sure he was entirely capable. He had a convenient scapegoat handy to blame for her disappearance.

He had no reason to allow her to be visible and capable of independent action when his cavalcade of guests arrived. But there she was, dazed but unrestrained. And then...cursed knife time.

Super convenient! She's dead and can't blab, and lots of important people saw her do it and saw how horrified he was and are disposed to be sympathetic. Works out much better for him than the risk of being blamed if she disappears.

So Wei Wuxian's assumption that jgy set the suicide up and compelled her somehow is the most logical inference. Neither of their characters is really compatible with the other scenario.

If Jin Guangyao had actual mind control powers he definitely would have used them a lot, so the most straightforward version of what happened is he used some technique or drug that would confuse her and suppress her cognition, then deliberately put 'cursed dagger that preys on your negative feelings and makes you kill yourself' within reach just before everyone entered.

I'm sure if it hadn't worked, and she'd just kind of stared into the distance while he talked his way out of the unproveable allegations and weaponized Mo Xuanyu's bad reputation and so forth, he'd have been happy with that outcome too, since it would still have meant a lot of important people saw her alive and not freaking out, and then he'd still have been able to torture her for information later. (Again, something I'm sure he didn't want to do, but absolutely would have.)

But this worked out well and got rid of two exposure threats at once while buying him sympathy points.

Although considering his shit luck, I wouldn't rule out that his plan only went as far as sedating her so she couldn't make trouble and he could show everyone how not paralyzed on his murder table she was, and he'd forgotten he had an evil dagger that compelled you to kill yourself lying around in reach of a woman whose ability to exert force of will he'd just reduced to nothing.

And he wasn't expecting that result at all.

#hoc est meum #mdzs #jin guangyao #qin su #meta #character meta #suicide #arguably domestic violence

[robininthelabyrinth]

For the headcannon thing, how about LWJ disliking NMJ? Cause NMJ took LXC's attention away from him as a kid, and NMJ was uncooperative with LXC's attempts to get him to reconcile with JGY which caused LXC a good amount of stress. As a result, LWJ is kind of petty towards NMJ. Probably ends up being good friends with NHS or something because spoiling NHS against NMJ's wishes seems like his type of petty cause it's an act that doesn't cause issues for LXC.

Nie Mingjue was clearly no good.

Lan Wangji had decided this long ago. He'd been Lan Xichen's first real friend from another sect, and not only had Lan Xichen spent the entire summer he'd been there hanging around with him instead of with Lan Wangji, he'd spent even more time afterwards secluding himself in order to write letters to him or read responses from him. Even later, he'd come visiting, always writing in advance to politely ask permission, and Lan Xichen would speak of nothing else in the time leading up to visit, during, and then after. Months, wasted, on the apparently endlessly fascinating subject of Nie Mingjue that Lan Wangji didn't care one bit about.

Even Nie Huaisang, with whom Lan Wangji was quite good friends after the latter's first summer at the Cloud Recesses, had a tendency to talk about Nie Mingjue too much. Sure, he pretended it was mostly complaining, but try to say one even remotely not-positive thing (not even negative, just neutral!) about Nie Mingjue and he'd immediately go on a whole evening ramble about how wonderful his big brother was. Even though just earlier he'd been whining about how he was always getting scolded, how he never got to do what he liked, how his brother was always making him do work - nope! None of it mattered.

It was like Nie Mingjue had brainwashing powers or something.

Even after, when Lan Xichen found a second friend, the now-named Jin Guangyao, Nie Mingjue was only causing problems - Lan Xichen was always moping these days because Nie Mingjue didn't want to agree to a brotherhood, or put conditions on it, or wasn't sincere about it, or whatever. Or else it was because he kept having increasingly bad headaches, a potential sign of a qi deviation, and Lan Xichen was terribly worried about that, wondering if the Song of Clarity he'd taught Jin Guangyao to play for him wasn't working well enough and trying to do lots of research to find another solution. In short, Nie Mingjue was doing nothing but causing Lan Xichen endless amounts of stress! Absolutely ridiculous. It was leaving Lan Xichen with no time or energy to do anything else, like listen to Lan Wangji talk about his problems (mostly Wei Wuxian related).

Someone needed to do something.

Lan Wangji nominated himself.

"Wangji, it's good to see you," Nie Mingjue said, smiling at him even as he rubbed his temples - he looked tired, with circles under his eyes. "You're just in time, actually - I just had an argument with Guangyao and he left in rather a hurry. Could I ask you to play Clarity for me instead? Unless whatever you want to talk about is urgent, of course..."

Lan Wangji begrudgingly complied, since in fact 'you need to be less of a burden on my brother' wasn't urgent at all.

"You know, I feel positively refreshed?" Nie Mingue remarked, and oddly enough he actually looked visibly better. "You must be better at it than Guangyao is...not that I'll tell him that. Anyway, what brings you here? Is it the Wei Wuxian issue?"

...what Wei Wuxian issue?

"Hasn't Xichen said? I think there's something fishy about what happened with the Jin sect, the Qiongqi Path, him getting kicked out of the Jiang sect and all that. I was thinking about going over to the Burial Mounds in my official capacity as Nie sect leader and trying to broker some official treaty or something - I just haven't had the energy recently, with the headaches and all, but actually today I feel quite good. Would you like to come along with me to represent your sect as well?"

Lan Wangji would, actually.

"No, wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. You came here for a reason, surely. What can I help you with?"

Nothing that couldn't wait until later. They should definitely take advantage of Nie Mingjue's inexplicably returned energy and good mood and go to the Burial Mounds, where in fact Nie Mingjue should probably plan to need another refresh of the Song of Clarity.

"But you just played..."

Lan Wangji could play it again.

"It seems unnecessary -"

It was very necessary.

"Well, I suppose, if you insist, and if you don't mind Wei Wuxian hearing it as well," Nie Mingjue said with a shrug. "Who knows? Maybe it'll do him some good."

(After they successfully convinced Wei Wuxian to consider returning to Qinghe with them, Lan Wangji was willing to admit that maybe Nie Mingjue had some use. But that was all he was willing to concede!)

#mdzs #alt headcanons #my fic #my fics #unchanging headcanon that LWJ has spoiled youngest syndrome #lan wangji

[jaimebluesq]

For the weird writer ask (if you're still taking those): 4, 8, 17, 24 :)

4. What’s a word that makes you go absolutely feral?

In a good way? Acquiesce. It just sounds lovely on the tongue and looks pretty when written. In a bad way? I've become wary whenever I see I've written "eyes" because I feel I'm overly repetitive with the "he saw x emotion in her eyes/ or /eyes filled with x emotion or concept" and now I'm paranoid about it lol.

8. If you had to write an entire story without either action or dialogue, which would you choose and how would it go?

I've written each, and it all depends on the tone of the piece. Dialogue-only works best with humor and fluff. The other works best with angst and drama.

17. Talk to me about the minutiae of your current WIP. Tell me about the lore, the history, the detail, the things that won’t make it in the text.

Omfg I have a fic I just finished but is on hold for which I did a fuck ton of in-my-head lore, much of which didn't make it in the story because it's a smutty fic. OK, it's a reverse Nies AU - NHS is Da-ge and became sect leader when their father died. The fic takes place a few years later, but my lore is that after taking charge of Qinghe, NHS went from sect leader to sect leader, asking for help and for someone to believe him that WRH was behind his father's death, but no sect leader supported/believed in him - but one PERSON did.

You see, because NHS was the heir, his father worried about his not being a strong warrior because strength was respected in the Nie, so daddy Nie brought in private tutors from Meishan to educate NHS in the many ways and strategies of subterfuge. So after his failures to gain support, NHS went to Madame Yu, the only person who fully believed him about the extent of the threat WRH posed. They came to an agreement to work together, and to aid in their communication and shared strategy, it was decided that NHS would marry Jinzhu and she would become Madame Nie.

To the rest of the Jianghu, NHS is the Headshaker who's been floundering after his father's death and who is being controlled by Madame Yu through his wife. Behind closed doors, he has come to care for his wife (who, yes, is quite a bit older than him) but only trusts her so far, but she's the same, and it kind of works for them, and the bunch of them have slipped spies into Qishan Wen, and sometimes Jinzhu and Yinzhu go off on missions and most of the time NHS doesn't ask for details because he knows she won't give them, he's just happy to have her home safe. NMJ also knows his Da-ge isn't the idiot he pretends to be, but trusts him fully to protect him and bring justice to their father's memory.

NHS has also gained a reputation as a terrible flirt and regularly teases the wives (and husbands) of his fellow sect leaders, inviting them to Qinghe should they ever tire of their inattentive spouses. Most of them are flattered and enjoy the attention from a younger, handsome, and charming man - particularly Madame Jin who is unused to such attention considering the asshole she married. It's part for show, to be seen as a hedonist and not to be taken seriously, but also because he really doesn't like the way JGS and others like him treat their spouses and if Jinzhu allowed him he would totally start his own harem.

*ahem* and on top of all that, when WWX was first brought to Lotus Pier, NHS was visiting there with his father, so when JFM decided to give away JC's dogs, NHS asked his father to take them. JC and NMJ have become very close friends and play with the (no longer) puppies whenever one visits the other's sect. This has made Madame Yu a LITTLE less hateful toward WWX, though not too much. But the boys' friendship is another thing uniting NHS and YZY in their efforts - making the world better for the ones they love most.

The fic this was for, BTW, was for NHS pretending Jinzhu isn't his wife and seducing her away to an empty room for a quickie during a cultivation conference.

*phew*

24. How much prep work do you put into your stories? What does that look like for you? Do you enjoy this part or do you just want to get on with it?

If there are a lot of thoughts and pieces, I like to do a point for outline, either of events/hoe the story will go, or facts and scenes I want in there cuz if I don't write them down, I might forget the details. Though quite often I don't prepare at all and just dive in head first lol.

Thank you for the ask! I'm sure you regret it now after my response to #14 lol

[morkofday]

fandom - the untamed! 👀

oh i haven't thought about cql in ages but i put on my playlist for it just for this so here we go. enjoy the ride! (i sure as hell did ♥)

001 | Send me a fandom and I will tell you my:

Favorite character: Jiang Cheng i have talked about him a million times but i still find it funny how i didn't really like him at first. the donghua version of him felt like a total ass, and as the donghua lacked the ending back then and didn’t give me closure, only during the live action i grew fond of him. he has made his fair share of mistakes but i love how flawed he is and how much his character promises hope of growth ♥

Least Favorite character: Jin Guangshan bitch ass man can go burn in hell for all i care

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon): XiCheng, WangXian, NieMo , SongXiao, Jiang Yanli + Jin Zixuan ♥

Character I find most attractive: Lan Wangji and Lan Xichen i truly cannot choose between the twin jades of lan. they are both just so beautiful. there's such grace in both of them and i love it how different yet similar they are. i could write poems about their beauty but also just about their characters and their bond.

Character I would marry: Wen Qing my wife ♥ idk if i would truly marry any of the cql characters but i wouldn't say no to her haha 

Character(s) I would be best friends with: The One Braincell Trio i would absolutely drink myself under the table with jc, wwx, and nhs. it would be so much fun. as long as we don't get sad drunk hhhh

a random thought: our juniors are just a new generation of leaders in the making and in my head, ljy will become the chief cultivator, mark my words

An unpopular opinion: uuuhh idk if i have any. it truly has been too long. i cannot get into details, am sorry. 

My Canon OTP: WangXian they are the epitome of true love, of soulmates, of star-crossed lovers, of everything that is good in this dark world. they have all the tropes in them i love. they are both such strong and independent ppl but find gentleness, warmth, and easiness in each other. they make a home. they have defeated death, and if that isn't enough, then idk what to tell you. 

My Non-canon OTP: XiCheng they are two ppl attempting to heal together. they are fire and ice, storm and calm, winter and summer. they meet between the river and the mountain. but i think what mostly attracted me to them was the promise of hope and healing and finding love when it had once been lost. 

Most Badass Character: Lan Wangji only based on how he looks when he fights like. hell. that looks stunning?? he was born to wield a sword i swear (honorary mention goes to his husband yiling patriarch bc will we ever get over those wonderful vibes? never)

Most Epic Villain: Nie Huaisang our master mind ♥ he and his intelligence astonish me. he's just so cool. idk if we can properly count him as a villain bc who truly is a villain in cql (other than like. wen ruohan?? who just got cringe with his emo villain aesthetic byeee) but he is our Big Bad Guy in the end. he is a villain - yet also some type of hero. and doesn't that just make him even more epic?

Pairing I am not a fan of: ChengYi there are actually several similar ships (like wwx and wn or lxc and nmj etc.) that i find kind of... weird? or where i can only see friendship or familiarity/family bonds instead of romantic feelings. but everyone can like what they like. more for you. (also chengyi bothers me when on twt i go through cheng yi’s (the actor) tag and suddenly i get jc x ljy porn thrown at my face like,,, god dammit)

Character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another): The Women i guess we all will die on the hill that cql women deserved better.

Favourite Friendship: Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing i love their bickering and their care for each other and their companionship. i also love how wq is the only person on this earth who can put wwx in his place. that man needs to hear the cold truth sometimes which is that he's an idiot. the smartest idiot in the world mayhaps but an idiot nonetheless. also imagine if they had both been allowed to live, they could've ruled the world sigh. we support powerful besties in this house.

Character I most identify with: Jiang Cheng under the anger and him being a bitch, i do find similarities between us. we have insecurities that cripple us at times; we regard love and family most of all in complicated ways. we don't know what to say to those we care about and struggle with emotions. we suck at accepting gifts too, even if his case is a bit more extreme than my average gift received from a friend :'D

Character I wish I could be: Jin Ling i adore this tiny brat even if he is, indeed, a brat ♥ but imagine how cool it would be, all responsibilities aside, to be him: you are the nephew of half the notorious ppl of the cultivator world. any time you have a problem, you just call one uncle for help. you also have a lot of dead uncles and you're an orphan bc of some of them but :) let's ignore that pain. you would be the coolest amongst your peers. absolutely bonkers.

thank you for sending me this ask! have a very good day ^^ ♥

#this was wild trip ok #haven't thought about them this much in a while #and now am just feeling super emotional sob #thank you a lot tho!!

[murfpersonalblog]

🔥 choose violence ask game 🔥

CQL/MDZS Edition

1) the character everyone gets wrong: Jiang Cheng might be the most polarizing character of all IMO. But I don't think people get him "WRONG," so much as we tend to fall on either side of the discussion: either more or less critical of his inactions/overreactions. Personally, I am less inclined to forgive a lot of JC's BS, but!!! I also blame his parents' godawful child-rearing for him being so emotionally constipated.

2) a compelling argument for why your fave would never top or bottom: Canonically, LWJ never bottomed a day in his life, and I rebuke any heresy refuting this god-given evidence, amen.

3) screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr: That one poll where people actually voted to behead WWX and marry Xue Yang had me like WHOMST???? Like, I understand marrying JGY, but XY?! O_O

4) what was the last straw that made you finally block that annoying person? I haven't blocked anyone in the CQL/MDZS fandom (yet)

5) worst discord server and why: I don't use discord. I wish they'd change the layout, it's a jumbled mess IMO.

6) which ship fans are the most annoying? I don't read anything but WangXian and 3zun fics, so I don't really get annoyed by other ships

7) what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them? See #1. I'm actually hating JC LESS because of how the fandom acts--I used to spit on that man's name, LOL. XD

8) common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about: Look, is it 13 years or 16 years y'all, cuz I am CONFUSED.

9) worst part of canon: the fact that Jin Guangshan ever existed.

10) worst part of fanon: the racism. Y'all out here really doing the most, huh?

11) number of fandom-related words you've filtered: I only filter out Bottomji; I did NOT sign up for this; hasn't WWX suffered enough?

12) the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them: Does Nie Mingjue count as unpopular? I guess, in WX-centric fics he might be?

13) worst blorboficiation: Xue Yang. Don't get me wrong, he deserves a hug, but he's done way too much heinousness out of pure spite & wickedness for me to sit here uwu-ing him. (Even if he is hella pretty.)

14) that one thing you see in fics all the time: wangxian 😍

15) that one thing you see in fanart all the time: wangxian 😍

16) you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc): ONLY shipping LXC with either NMJ or JGY, when he deserves BOTH of them gosh darnit. It's Venerated TRIAD Feels!

17) there should be more of this type of fic/art: there's plenty of 3zun, but I want MOAR

18) it's absolutely criminal that the fandom has been sleeping on... The fact that LWJ has the arm-strength of Hercules himself--people never talk about how physically inhumanly STRONG he was! Like...he lifted WEIGHTS. O_O

19) you're mad/ashamed/horrified you actually kind of like... Jin Zixuan

20) part of canon you found tedious or boring: every time Sect Leader Yao speaks.

21) part of canon you think is overhyped: The Incense Burner chapter. Like sure, all the smutty smut-smut, but I don't like sex pollen type tropes.

22) your favorite part of canon that everyone else ignores: LWJ being a literal TODDLER when drunk. It's the most adorable thing on the planet, but people usually just have LWJ pass out and wake up the next day, without showing how his repressed childlike/immature tendencies come out when he's inebriated.

23) ship you've unwillingly come around to: Lan Sizhui with Lan Jingyi. I see them more as brothers, and I ship LJY with Ouyang Zizhen more. But I get it--having LSZ w/ Jin Ling would be LXC w/ JGY all over again, in terms of who would marry in/out; while having LSZ w/ LJY stay together in Gusu is much neater, logistically.

24) topic that brings up the most rancid discourse: See #10.

25) common fandom complaint that you're sick of hearing: that LWJ bottoms. He doesn't. End of discussion! 😤 And Happy Hanguang-June!!! XD

#the untamed #mo dao zu shi #mdzs #headcanon #questionnaire

[xiyao-feels]

Finally got around to writing down some thoughts on the differences between Empathy and the original—per scene and then a general reflection.

Episode 10

(episode 10 differences)

Going through this chronologically, our first comparison is the captain encounter. Honestly I think NMJ was straight-up inventing most of this—even aside from the sheer absurdity of MY, what, smuggling XY out of prison, bringing him into the middle of everything (he runs into the Captain and friend AND WWX!), XY…just going back into prison…well, anyway, putting all that aside—the Captain's questions here seem like NMJ's preoccupations, not the Captain's. The Captain is hugely contemptuous of MY, but he's not, like, obsessed with his innermost heart, you know? "You're lying! I just saw that. You were talking. Tell me honestly. What's your ulterior motive?"—that's NMJ, not the Captain at all. Plus there's the way the Captain grabs MY basically the exact same way NMJ does. 

Next up there's MY telling NHS he's going to go check on XY—minor phrasing differences aside, one thing that's interesting is we don't get all of MY's reaction/decision before he tells NHS in Empathy, just the tail end:

Ahhhh, now, the bit where NMJ sees MY stab the captain! You can see here the beginning of a pattern of Empathy erasing the Wen. MY throwing himself in front of the blade to save NMJ is removed, of course, but so is NMJ fighting WZL, as he was before going to the prison in episode 10; in the Empathy he's just kind of standing there. And then sees MY, uh, creepily pick up a sword??? And follows him??? Instead of hearing that XY's escaped and running to the prison because of that, which is of course what happened in episode 10. (So XY is erased some in this scene, too; even when it comes to MY's excuses, he says It wasn't me, but we don't get to 'Xue Yang killed him', as we do in the original.)

Some other points of interest here… Of course the expression NMJ sees on MY as MY kills the captain is only shown in Empathy. Interestingly, also, while MY is quite clearly terrified at NMJ's approach in both, in episode 10 it's presented immediately, while in the Empathy he has a beat before he starts reacting that way.

The last scene—NMJ confronting MY and kicking him out of Qinghe. In the Empathy, we start with MY having been thrown onto the floor, rolling—but this isn't there in episode 10, and to be honest I think it probably didn't actually happen. First, while I can see NMJ throwing MY onto the floor, I don't actually think he'd throw him quite that hard at this point in time? And it's also got a lot of visual echoes of JGY rolling down the stairs; I think he's projecting backwards. Of course, it still takes MY longer to recover in episode 10; Empathy consistently minimizes the physical harm done to MY.

So the conversation is interesting because it's really just two different conversations in the Empathy vs episode 10. In episode 10, MY leads with the Captain's abuse of him, and he's clear that it's habitual, ongoing, long-term. In Empathy, he leads with the Captain releasing XY, /adds in/ that the Captain wanted to kill him (that's not there in episode 10!), and absolutely skips over and minimizes the abuse: the beatings aren't mentioned, the credit-stealing isn't mentioned, the insulting and humiliating… even the 'Every time' is removed from before the 'he humiliated my mother', making it seem like this was a one-off provocation instead of habitual. NMJ's somewhat unhinged rant about MY's motives, including the would you have killed everyone at the cave if I hadn't helped you, is also Empathy-only (and then when MY starts to reply NMJ is like, Don't lie to me! and MY shuts up, suggesting perhaps that a denial would have been lying, which may be part of why people think this is a remotely reasonable assertion).

Some other interesting things—in episode 10, we see NMJ lift his sabre and then lower it, unable to go through with it; in Empathy, we don't see that at all—in general I think there's less of a sense that he's struggling with his decision, in Empathy, it's more just like He Is Doing The Righteous Justice. Fascinatingly we also don't see him put Baxia away in Empathy—I think he must because we see a scene where he already had, in episode 10, but we don't actually see it. We also don't see MY, injured, get up and thank NMJ and walk out, or indeed NMJ's conflicted gaze after him; the scene cuts off too soon.

Episode 22

(episode 22 differences)

There's only one scene for episode 22: the WRH, NMJ, and MY scene, inside Sun Palace. Right off the bat, we have the Wen erasure again; the episode 22 scene starts with WRH directly addressing NMJ and tormenting him and his Nie cultivators, whereas the Empathy one only starts when MY walks in. (Although interestingly MY addresses WRH as xiandu, while he doesn't seem to say anything with his bow in episode 22).

This one is an interesting scene because there's relatively little overlap? In the episode 10 scenes, you mostly saw different versions of the same events; in this one there's some of that, but there are also large chunks of time that are only in episode 22 or only in Empathy. Most of the MY-interacting-with-NMJ is only in Empathy, including, yes, the damn sabre touch. But we do have the beginning of MY talking to NMJ in both. MY's expression is different in Episode 22 vs Empathy—it's a little hard to capture in a still, but it's a lot more, mmm, simpering-mockery in the Empathy version?

Ah, one detail that's interesting—so, in CQL—which is to say in Empathy because we don't see this sequence at all in Episode 22—when that Nie cultivator calls the place 'a den of Wen' he uses 温/温氏, for Wen, and then when people are insulting MY in this scene they're using 走狗. But in MDZS all of those are actually 温狗, Wen-dog. Which is definitely more directly disrespectful to WRH than the 走狗 insults, but I feel like in general CQL doesn't use 温狗 a lot, while in MDZS it's all over the place—so while it's an interesting detail I'm not sure it's suggestive for Empathy in particular. Hmmm.

We return to things being shown in both Empathy and Episode 22 with NMJ shoving MY back. In Empathy, we only see MY stagger a little, while in episode 22 it's quite considerable—again, Empathy's tendency to minimize the physical damage MY suffers.

And then MY kicks NMJ in return! Okay this is actually fascinating, because in Empathy, it looks like this totally wipes NMJ out, and the scene stops here. But that isn't at all what happened! He's knocked onto his back, yes, BUT he recovers and comes up and shoves MY hard enough he goes flying: 

He gets up and goes to attack MY, and would probably have killed him if WRH hadn't interfered. Which, don't get me wrong, is entirely reasonable of him given his understanding of the situation but it is not at all the impression you'd get from Empathy. If anything NMJ's collapse in the Empathy after MY kicks him looks like the collapse he has after WRH finishes with him, in episode 22. And MY saying How dare you be so rude in front of Clan Leader Wen when he kicks NMJ is also removed—the whole sequence here is really another example of the removal of the Wen from the Empathy scenes. 

Incidentally, MY didn't actually kill all the Nie cultivators, in this scene. If you look while MY is flying back, at least one of them is still alive:

And then you can see all four are dead while NMJ's attacking WRH:

But MY has been on the floor recovering from NMJ's attack, so he definitely didn't kill the at least one and quite probably two who are still alive.

WRH asks MY if NMJ killed Wen Xu question; you have MY staying quite noticeably silent, which I think is still meant to be understood as MY saving NMJ's life. I guess they changed it because the MDZS version really doesn't work with the flow of events as happens in CQL? For the record, in MDZS MY answers yes, but then immediately suggests that they torture him instead of killing him immediately, and then once WRH isn't set on killing him immediately, kills WRH on the spot and starts lugging NMJ's unconscious body out of there. So there's no WWX for distraction, and Sunshot's army definitely isn't right outside, there's only LXC he sent a message to and who hasn't quite shown up yet—so in MDZS he's taking a bigger risk, and more unambiguously saving NMJ's life and winning them the war. Which is not, to be clear, to in any way minimize CQL MY's astonishing bravery and achievements.

Episode 23

(episode 23 differences)

So in both we start with LXC holding NMJ and looking down at him. In episode 23, when NMJ sees MY, we see LXC see and notice his reaction and /then/ look over at MY in concern, whereas in Empathy we don't get that moment—it just goes to both of them looking at MY.

NMJ demands his sabre back, and in both MY complies, though in the Empathy one he takes a beat longer and looks more worried about it. In the original, MY also has "Let me explain" which is dropped from the Empathy.

In both we have NMJ attacking MY with Baxia, and trying to get past Shuoyue—in the Empathy it's a bit shorter, though, and we also lose LXC asking NMJ what he's doing this for. I think that goes with cutting LXC seeing NMJ react before he looks over at MY, above; the effect is to make NMJ's response seem more obvious/natural, when in fact LXC is pretty baffled by it at the time.

"he became the Wen's underling and had been helping the tyrant at Nevernight!"—the language on 'became the Wen's underling' is actually different in episode 23 vs Empathy. In episode 23, you have 原来投靠了温氏; in Empathy, though, it's 原来是做了走狗. Note the 走狗 as earlier!

Okay, and now the big one: LXC giving NMJ reasons they should trust MY/not kill him. Empathy cuts most of this. It keeps that MY is the one who sent the map, but it drops: that the reason LXC is here today is because MY sent him a message; that MY was the one who schemed to get WRH's guard down, and then /killed him/; that MY was the one who saved LXC's life after CR burned; and that MY independently approached WRH to spy on him and has been sending LXC letters the whole time. /That's really not trivial. That's a lot to cut./

I wonder if this has any relation to the common idea that LXC did not in fact have a lot of very good reasons to trust JGY.

(Incidentally it's after the MY killed WRH reveal, in episode 23, that NMJ lowers his blade.)

...also. so. In episode 23 LXC asks MY, you know, didn't he already tell NMJ about all this (a question which makes a lot more sense in MDZS, where NMJ has already woken up before LXC joins them, but I just run with it), and MY says, you saw it ZWJ, even if I had he wouldn't have believed me. And NMJ—again it's kind of hard to capture in a still, but he pretty much reacts like he thinks that's ridiculous and MY is just making excuses/being manipulative?

And then of course that gets erased from the Empathy, as well as as just mentioned most of the reasons LXC actually gave. So. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh, this also means it cuts what I'm pretty sure is the first on-screen use of A-Yao—it does show up later in the Empathy version of this scene, so I don't think that's hugely significant, but just as a note.

Then there's MY kneeling in preparation for apology, which is in both Empathy and episode 23. The Empathy cuts make it seem like he kneels pretty much right after NMJ lowers his blade, though, and we don't get to see him making the deliberate choice to step out if LXC's protection to kneel—again, I think it makes LXC seem more understanding of NMJ than he actually is here.

The apology proper is only in Empathy; honestly it mostly seems fairly reasonable to me, although it does mean you only hear LXC saying "But I believe, when he was doing such things, deep in his heart he must have been…" after the version that cuts most of his reasons for believing that. In terms of actual changes, I wonder if LXC reacted more quickly/strongly to the bit where it looks like NMJ is actually going to kill MY? It's definitely more understated than his previous reactions, and it would fit with the other changes made.

Last scene: the oath. At this point I think it's fairly well-known that NMJ looking at JGY, and LXC turning his head to look at them both, is only in Empathy—there's also, maybe?, a small change to the text; in episode 23, "Both God and people will be furious with us" is 天人共怒, but in Empathy it's 天人共戮. I say maybe because—on the one hand, the subs definitely use a different character, and it's in both the YT subs and the Netflix subs even though those aren't always 100% identical, but while I'm not usually checking the audio for this I did here because it's just the one character and the audio pretty much sounds the same to me? (ep 23) (Empathy) Could just be my ear, or a mistake on the subs' part or the audio part, who knows.

Overview

Looking at all the changes together, a few patterns emerge.

First, people who are doing damage who aren't JGY—the Wen, XY—tend to get minimized or erased from the narrative. Similarly and to some extent as a result, the harm caused by JGY is exaggerated; also similarly, the good that JGY does is also minimized or erased. Meanwhile, the damage done /to/ JGY is minimized—both the environment of abuse he suffered at Qinghe, and the physical harm done to him, which he usually recovers from much more quickly in Empathy (even when the attack itself is made stronger as, unusually, it is in the confrontation where NMJ kicks MY out of Qinghe). Finally MY is made more manipulative than he necessarily is; while I'm not saying he's never being manipulative, NMJ understands his expressions of weakness as /purely/ manipulative and inherently false, when in fact the weakness MY expresses is very real, however calculated, or not!, its expression may be.

Honestly—in this JGY who does way more harm and way less good than he actually does, who is more powerful and experiences less damage than he actually does, who is never actually weak but only acting that way to manipulate people? I feel like I'm seeing a lot of where popular takes on JGY come from.

#long meta #more than one tag could contain

[mostlikelytofangirl]

Sorry I have to admit this but I've come to the decision that I don't actually like NMJ.

I love NHS, he's great! Love JGY too.

But I can't stand a man who talks about righteousness when he doesn't understand the nuances situations of others who are less privileged than him. He's male, athletic, skilled as something his society prizes, born to married parents, born as an heir to a leadership position and RICH, and seems to expect others to behave as if they have the same privilege he does (JGY and XY). He seems like the kind of guy who would blame poor people for not having a strong enough work ethic to get money T_T I feel like if my chronically fatigued, work-smarter-not-harder self were in the Nie sect he'd drive me to regicide or kick me out first.

- Regular Anon

Ahaha that's totally ok! We all have tastes and there are characters for everyone ^^.

I completely undertand where you are coming from and I will be the first one to agree that he is far from perfect, but I personally do like him a hella lot (second fave in fact) for exactly what he represents and how that plays out in the story. He's the paragon of righteousness taken to it purest form, and I think it's great how that is portrayed as having its problems and downsides as well, especially in a practical, not idealized sense.

It's absolutely just me tho, I don't really associate fictional characters with my personal experience and how I would think about them irl. I can't handle conflict in any way, shape or form, but all my fave meow meows are problematic war criminals :'). I like my characters based on how much I can dig into them and how rich they are, that's why I'll take the complex bastards over the simple goody two-shoes any day.

But again, that's just how my personal relationship with media works, I can totally see how others would feel differently about him and other characters; in fact, I think I stand with a bit of a minority by staning him bc he kinda isn't portrayed to be that likeable a character lol.

For the record, I and my extense list of physical conditions wouldn't survive the Nie training program either XD. But well, doing a good administrative job was something he appreciated ;u;

#replies #mdzs #you do you anon! #there are a lot of other characters for you to like :D #that's how great this story is

[fincalinde]

For the latest meme, 23, 24, 36, and 30? 👀

23. Dialogue or description? Why is the other one so hard?

Hmmm I actually quite enjoy both. Lengthy and detailed description doesn't suit my style and I find it difficult, but I also find it difficult at times to differentiate between 'voices' for different characters. Sorry I don't have a more interesting answer. As a freebie: what I really find difficult is action sequences of any kind.

24. Thoughts on flashbacks/flashforwards.

Nothing against either though it's not something I'm drawn to. I'm not an adventurous writer and while I've experimented with analepsis and prolepsis in the past it doesn't come naturally to me and therefore doesn't crop up much in my fanfic. I think I've only done two fics with a flashback structure: the garden we find inside and the NMJ sidestory for weakness. But both are still quite straightforward.

An example of a fic that moves back and forth in a clever way is my perennial favourite darkness and fears to appease by welcome_equivocator. One that really rewards multiple readings.

36. How do you come up with fic titles? What's the one you're most proud of?

Oh almost always lyrics, I'm awful at titles and have absolutely no illusions about how inadequate most of my choices are. My rule is just that the song as a whole should more or less work for the fic or at minimum the pairing. My best title is probably old enough to be yours though I'm also very fond of the weakness of falling in love. And the whimsical working title a study of the urban fridge deer I ended up keeping because a certain raccoon and possum are enablers. If I ever manage to finish the sequel the file is named 'further study of the urban fridge deer' which I'm sure won't confuse anyone at all.

30. Describe a fic that almost happened, but then it didn't.

I dream constantly of the Wangxian Temple Fix but it's not going to get written because describing it is the joke. Probably the best serious example is the Orphan AU @xiyao-feels (aka you lol) and I devised where LXC and JGY end up at the same foster home. There's lots of cute little scenes like JGY getting a part time job as a barista and then LXC getting a job there too. Oh and they share a tiny room with a very small single bed each, so that makes it easy to be secret boyfriends but not that comfortable for all the very necessary spooning, so one of the many things JGY dreams of achieving when he's a rich and successful adult is buying the Biggest Bed Possible.

Maybe I'll be nice and share a tiny bit since it's never going to be a fic unless someone wants to pay me to write Xiyao all day:

They each have a single bed, on opposite sides of their very small room, and every night Meng Yao fantasises about shoving the bedside tables out of the way and pushing the beds together. He dreams about having enough space.

Tonight they talked after lights out, whispering to each other in Cantonese until Lan Xichen got quiet and not in a way that meant he was falling asleep. So Meng Yao had slipped out of his own bed and joined him, hugging him and letting him hide his face against his shoulder.

What Meng Yao remembers is falling asleep with one arm thrown over Lan Xichen and his nose pressed to the nape of Lan Xichen's neck. What he discovers when he wakes is that his arm is still over Lan Xichen's waist but his face is now hidden against Lan Xichen's back, his nose and forehead rubbing the clean-scented cotton of Lan Xichen's pyjama shirt.

#ask #xiyao-feels

[crossdressingdeath]

LWJ: *standing there testing out his bow, minding his own business*

WWX: Who is this gorgeous beautiful man that makes these atrocious uniforms for the archery competition look good? This man who is elegant and gorgeous and has nice hands that strum the bow like a guqin. This beautiful man who is so completely and utterly flawless. So gorgeous.

WWX: LAN ZHAN?!?! Of course its Lan Zhan!!

Narrator: WWX spent his entire time apart from LWJ telling every person in Yunmeng about him.

WWX: Wangji-xiong! Lan Zhan! Look at me and talk to me! I'm right here don't ignore me!

LWJ: It's ok Wangji, you've got this. Breathe just lime you've practiced. You don't have to look at him or talk to him so you won't get flustered.

WWX: Lan Zhan Lan Zhan Lan Zhan Lan Zhan

LWJ: Don't look at him he'll know instantly that he's got you flustered and worked up. Don't look at him even though you want to hold him and kiss him and caress - *record scratching* STOP RIGHT THERE KEEP WALKING RIGHT NOW DON'T INTERACT WITH WEI YING IT DOESNT MATTER HOW WONDERFUL HE IS AND HOW MUCH YOU LOVE HIM KEEP WALKING

WWX, pouting: He ignored me.

WWX, brightening up: I know I'll just try harder to catch his attention.

LWJ, walking briskly and NOT running: Oh gods oh gods oh gods oh gods! Grant me all the self-control. Wei Ying you always have my attention but I need to focus. Please.

WWX: Lan Zhan, your forehead ribbon is crooked.

LWJ: *touches forehead ribbon to find that it is fine, proceeds to glare at WWX*

WWX: YAY LAN ZHAN YOU LOOMED AT ME!!

LWJ: I'm a fool! I've been tricked. Bamboozled! I've played myself! Wei Ying *internal soft sigh* WANGJI FOCUS GLARE AT HIM AND STORM AWAY CONCEAL DON'T FEEL DON'T LET HIM KNOW

WWX: *LWJ's forehead ribbon dances across his face in the soft breeze* I must get him to look at me for longer and talk to me. I need my Lan Zhan's attention always and forever even if he doesn't like me.

WWX: Lan Zhan, your forehead ribbon is actually crooked.

LWJ: *glares* not falling for that trick twice.

WWX: But La Zhan it really is! Here let me help you! *pulls off ribbon*

LWJ: *internal screaming* WEI YING HOW ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU! YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS RIBBON IS SACRED AND THAT IT MUST ONLY BE TOUCHED AFTER PROPER COURTING CEREMONY! YOU CAN'T JUST GRAB IT AT YOUR WHIM! DO YOU KNOW CARE FOR MY HEART OR REPUTATION?!

WWX, frowning: I didn't mean to! I just wanted to help!

LWJ: *storms away*

WWX: I just wanted my Lan Zhan's attention and now I've made him really angry.

WWX, years later after talking to some Lan Juniors: LAN ZHAN HOW DID YOU NOT STAB ME TO DEATH?! YOU TRULY DESERVE THE NAME HANGUANG-JUN! I WAS SUCH A BRAT!! OF COURSE IT WOULD BE SPECIAL TO YOU! YOU WANTED TO WAIT FOR YOUR FATED ONE TO TOUCH IT AND HERE I AM GROPING IT AT EVERY TURN

LWJ, after nearly 2 decades of finally coming to terms with his feelings for WWX: OK if you want to touch it, I'm just going to tie you up with it. But also I'll let you absent-mindedly play with it if you wish. I love you Wei Ying but I am going to respect your boundaries so that you don't think I'm trying to cage you. Because I'd rather see you free.

WWX: OH GODS I TOUCHED LAN ZHAN'S RIBBON WITHOUT HIS CONSENT SO MANY TIMES! HOW HORRIBLE MUST I BE IN HIS EYES?! AND HE STILL IS SO GOOD AND KIND TO ME NOW?! LAN ZHAN YOU ARE SO GOOD! just like how his lips were yesterday....WEI WUXIAN FOCUS DON'T THINK OF LAN ZHAN'S SOFT LIPS ON YOUR OWN

NMJ's headless corpse: yo I am here

WWX: Oh thank God something I can deal with

How did you get this ask so long?

Also I mean. yeah? That about sums it up!

#mdzs #wangxian #anon #asks

[xiyao-feels]

Nie//yao (MDZS)

So NMJ/JGY is actually getting two versions, because my read on them is wildly different for MDZS vs CQL.

In MDZS I...don't ship it? I mean, there just doesn't seem to be to be anything there at all of a romantic or sexual nature. It's not that they don't care about each other, they clearly do, but it's in a way that is...NMJ as substitute father, JGY as substitute brother, and heavily, heavily inflected by their (current and then former) relationship as superior and subordinate.

Putting this behind a cut because a) it's me explaining at breath length with quotes why I don't think they have a romantic or sexual relationship and I don't want people to have to see that unless they want and b) accordingly it is REALLY LONG and I also don't want to clutter people's dashes, so.

Actually backing up a step, I don't see MDZS NMJ as being attracted to anyone, that's not really specific to JGY. I tend to read him as aspec, tbh. So theoretically he could have romantic feelings about JGY without being attracted to him—I think he may have some quasi-romantic feelings for LXC, though I don't think he conceptualizes it that way—but... honestly, it's not really clear to me that he even likes JGY as a person.

I'm not saying he doesn't like JGY! He clearly does, at least before MY tricks him and flees. But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with MY's personality, as opposed to like—MY being really competent and conducting himself well.

Some quotes about what exactly NMJ values about JGY:

'Nie MingJue interrupted him, “I promoted you not because I wanted you to give back anything out of gratitude. I simply thought that you should stay in this position, since you are capable enough and your conduct is to my liking. If you really want to pay me back, just kill a few more of those Wen-dogs on the battlefield!”'

'After [Meng Yao] left [for Langya], Nie MingJue switched to another deputy. Wei WuXian, however, felt that the new one was always a few beats slower. Meng Yao was an unusually clever talent. He could understand what wasn’t said, and perform to the best with the simplest orders. He was efficient and never slacked. Anyone used to him wouldn’t be able to refrain from comparing him with others.'

'Nie MingJue was never close to people. He rarely opened up to anyone. Though he finally managed to obtain a competent, trustworthy subordinate, whose character and capabilities he approved, he found that the subordinate’s true colors were nothing like what he had thought they were. It was only natural that his reaction was so extreme.'

'Wei WuXian had once found it strange as well. Ever since Meng Yao betrayed the QingheNie Sect, the relationship between Nie MingJue and him hadn’t been the same as before. Then why did they later become sworn brothers? From his observations, aside from how Lan XiChen brought it up, having always hoped that the two would reconcile, the most important factor was probably the gratitude of saving his life and writing the letters. To be precise, in his past battles, he had more-or-less depended on the information that Meng Yao sent over through Lan XiChen. He still thought that Jin GuangYao was a talented person whom one would rarely come upon, and intended on leading him back onto the right path. However, Jin GuangYao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin GuangYao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie HuaiSang.'

Jin GuangYao spoke with dejection, “But, Brother, didn’t you hear what he said in the oath? Every sentence meant something more. ‘Face a thousand accusing fingers, be torn from limb to limb’—this was clearly a warning for me. I… I’ve never heard of such an oath before.”

Lan XiChen replied in a gentle voice, “He said ‘if one were to think otherwise’. Do you think otherwise? If not, then why should you worry over it so much?"

Jin GuangYao, “I don’t, but Brother has already decided that I do, so what can I do?”

Lan XiChen, “He has always cherished your talent, hoping that you would choose the right path.”

You might notice a recurring theme here: there's a lot of focus JGY's competence and conduct. But anything about who JGY is as a person? Not so much.

They clearly had a good superior/subordinate relationship going on, albeit one in which NMJ was missing a lot of context (see just behave well and show people up, plus the you're missing a solid foundation thing). But it does seem to be basically professional. WWX describes them as conversing "peaceably, even impressively" in contrast to "his future self, always being scolded by Nie MingJue" and "those jokes of how 'LianFang-Zun fled whenever he heard that ChiFeng-Zun arrived,'" and.... that's kind of it. The closest we get to them as friends is them talking together with LXC after NMJ tells MY he will give him a letter of recommendation and send him to his father; as WWX describes it, "The three chatted back and forth, at times serious, yet at times light. The conversation was much more relaxed than when they had been in the living room. Listening to their chatter, Wei WuXian often wanted to get a word in as well, yet he was unable to do so."

That's definitely not nothing! But it's also the most we ever get, only shows up the once, and is explicitly contrasted with their conversation from earlier. Moreover, I'm pretty sure LXC's presence is a necessary part of things; NMJ tends to respond differently to LXC than to other people (even just earlier in this chapter, we're told that while "Nie MingJue had never been one for humour," "in front of Lan XiChen his expression eased"), and WWX explicitly notes LXC's conversation skills in the context of this conversation: "At this point in time, their relationship really isn't bad. Zewu-Jun is actually quite good at holding conversations, so why is Lan Zhan so bad at it?"

In addition, I'd say that looking at the early part of that conversation is quite telling; while LXC and MY are sitting together as equals, MY stand up at once the moment NMJ interrupts, and doesn't sit even after NMJ tells him to do so (I think he probably does take a seat at some point, but the narrative doesn't actually tell us when). Moreover, MY seems to be worried that NMJ will be offended by a possible lack of gratitude on MY's part ("Sect Leader Nie, if you heard everything, then you should've also heard me say that..."), and the only objection he expresses to leaving is precisely that he owes NMJ a debt of gratitude, not anything to do with, like, missing him. To me all the evidence suggests that while they had a close relationship, it was not a /personal/ relationship, but fundamentally one of superior and subordinate.

(For a close read of the scene where NMJ, LXC and MY are talking together, I highly recommend @confusion-and-more's post here)

Moving on, let's look at after JGY becomes JGY. They don't seem to particularly spend time together with each other, certainly not for the sake of it. There's a brief moment at the Flower Banquet where NMJ asks JGY why he's wasting his time with XY (who has not at this point in time committed his crime, he just has a reputation), but after JGY makes his excuse and scurries away, NMJ turns away and doesn't seem to seek him out or even pay him any particular attention for the rest of the scene; he only shows up once more, and that's following WWX. (And although JGY-as-replacement-NHS would be a post all on its own, I do think it's interesting to note that the exchange about XY is immediately followed by LXC and LWJ coming over, described in a way that highlights both their impressiveness and their status at brothers—their Twin Jade-ness, one might say.) During the guqin scene, NMJ only speaks once, and it's to address LXC—to protest the inappropriateness of LXC leaking exclusive Lan techniques. When JGY shows up to play the guqin for him the first time, NMJ asks JGY "what did you come here for," which suggests that NMJ is not generally expecting JGY to come by without a specific, concrete reason. The closest they ever seem to get after JGY becomes JGY is during these guqin-playing sessions, and as WWX describes it, "when playing the guqin, the way that the two conversed and got along even had a hint of the peace they had before they fell out"—which is certainly better than there being no peace at all, but which I think suggests there's still at least some tension, given that it's only a "hint."

Now, NMJ certainly cares about JGY, both in the sense of desiring his well-being, at first, and absolutely in the sense of being emotionally invested in him—even after his death, as a fierce corpse his only desire is to kill Jin Guangyao. But while they had a close superior-subordinate relationship—certainly NMJ seems to have felt close to MY—at no point was it a close personal relationship, and I don't think that NMJ even liked JGY (or MY, I'm using the name expansively) as a person, let alone was in love with him.

But mostly so far I've been focusing in NMJ's feelings. What about JGY? Is /he/ in love with NMJ?

Once again, I just don't read him that way. This isn't to say he didn't care for NMJ—he absolutely did! He goes to quite significant lengths to save his life from WRH in the Sun Palace, including quite a lot of risk to MY himself—I analyze that in a lot more depth in the first part of my post here, if you're interested, though I will also note now that he specifically sent for LXC to help NMJ. (You'll have to scroll down some; I'm responding to someone else's post.) Afterwards, he kneels to NMJ and apologizes, I think sincerely, for hurting him and for invoking his pain about his father's death. He certainly conceives of himself as owing a debt of gratitude to NMJ for recognizing him, and he's so overcome when NMJ offers to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation, saying that he didn't promote MY so that MY would owe him, that he quite remarkably can't even find words. NMJ meant a lot to him, and so did NMJ's not defining him in terms of his birth—until he did, of course, at the stairs kick incident. But as far as I can tell, there's nothing to suggest he has /romantic feelings/ for NMJ, and frankly—how can I put this—it does not at all surprise me that JGY isn't in love with someone with a violent temper who is noted at least twice to react to people explaining themselves when he is angry with even more anger, and that's even without the thing where he nearly killed JGY on multiple occasions and called him the son of a prostitute.

No, I think JGY's emotional journey with NMJ goes through three stages: first, he's deeply grateful to him and respects him a great deal, although he's also aware of NMJ's lack of awareness of certain social realities (see: the teacup scene, NMJ yelling at the other Nie cultivators about their treatment of MY and telling MY not to worry as long as his conduct is upright); second, after Sun Palace, still gratitude and respect but also a mounting frustration with his lack of awareness of the implications of JGY's social position and his hypocrisy re: acceptable violence; finally, after the stairs kick when NMJ kicks him down the stairs, almost kills him, and tells him what else can be expected from the son of a prostitute, he is completely done with NMJ, but is still very much scared of him. The gratitude, I've discussed; the frustration, I think is fairly obvious in the speech he gives back to NMJ at the stairs. But I think the fear is often undervalued, so I'm going to pull a bunch of quotes again:

Meng Yao shrunk immediately after his previous outburst. Watching Baxia slash toward him, he sprinted off at once, scared lifeless. Of the two, one striked with madness and the other fled with madness. Both staggered, still soaked in blood. In such amusing circumstances, as Wei WuXian chopped at the future Chief Cultivator, in his heart he split his sides laughing. He thought that if not for how Nie MingJue was under heavy injuries and lacked spiritual power, Meng Yao would probably have been dead already.

Baxia’s strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, “MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?”

Nie MingJue, “Why don’t you ask what he did?!”

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao, his face was full of terror. He stammered as if he didn’t dare speak.

Nie MingJue remained silent, while Baxia and Shuoyue continued. Meng Yao took a glimpse at the glares from the clashes of the saber and the sword, his gaze full of fear. After a while, however, he still took a step forward. He kneeled to Nie MingJue.

A moment later, Nie MingJue still raised his saber. Lan XiChen, “MingJue-xiong!”

Meng Yao shut his eyes. Lan XiChen also tightened his grip on Shuoyue, “Please excuse…”

Before he could finish his sentence, the silver light of the blade slashed down violently, onto a boulder on the side.

Meng Yao flinched from the thunder of the boulder splitting apart. Looking over, he saw that it had been sliced into two halves, from the top to the bottom.

Jin GuangYao nodded. Xue Yang had been infamous ever since he was young. Wei WuXian clearly felt Nie MingJue’s brows knit even tighter. He spoke, “Why are you wasting your time with such a person?”

Jin GuangYao, “The LanlingJin Sect recruited him.”

He didn’t dare to protest any further. Excuse being that he needed to care for the guests, he scurried to the other side.

[part of his speech to NMJ at the stairs] You think that I should be afraid of nothing? Well I'm afraid of everything, even other people!

Within the temple, three people called Nie MingJue’s corpse ‘Brother’ but the three tones were drastically different. Jin GuangYao’s face was full of a drowning fear. His entire body began to shiver. No matter dead or alive, the person Jin GuangYao was most scared of was none but this sworn brother of his whose temper tolerated no evil. As his body shivered, his hands shivered as well, and the bloody guqin string he clutched tightly in his hand also began to shiver.

Clenching his teeth, Jin GuangYao struck a few acupoints of his arm. Amidst the dizziness that came from a loss of blood, he suddenly saw Nie MingJue walk a step towards him, his eyes locked on him. He was immediately half-dead with fear.

Collapsed beside Lan XiChen, Jin GuangYao saw this scene as well. Whether because the bleeding and the pain intensified at his arm and stomach or from some other reason, the glisten of tears could be seen in his eyes. But before he had a chance to catch his breath or lick his wounds, Nie MingJue turned around after he pulled his fist back and stared hungrily in his direction.

The harsh, stern expression on his rigid face held a sense of judgement that was no different from before he died. Even his tears had been scared away as Jin GuangYao turned to Lan XiChen for help, his voice trembling, “Brother…”

I think the stuff with, you know, handling NMJ's fierce corpse and hanging onto his head is often viewed as evidence of JGY's continued emotional investment in NMJ, but... I don't really think so? First of all, NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY. I'll spare you another round of quotes on that because this is already ridiculously long and because it's not at all subtle—it's all over the temple chapters, take a look! And second of all—well, there's ways of getting information from a corpse. In this case, NMJ's resentful energy is so strong that without the protection of his body, papernan WWX is actually sucked into NMJ's memories against his will! Sure, maybe no one would risk it, and maybe no one who risked it would survive, but especially given that NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY, that's a heck of a risk to take. And look at the description of the protections around NMJ's head:

Suddenly, Wei WuXian noticed that one of the shelves were blocked by a curtain. The curtain was covered in sinister, blood-red runes. It was a talisman of forbiddance, one of extreme power.

Jin GuangYao walked over and lifted the curtain.

For a split second, Wei WuXian thought that he had been exposed. After the faint firelight made its way through the curtain, he found that he was enveloped in a shadow. A circular object just happened to be in front of him.

Jin GuangYao stood still, as though he was staring into the eyes of whatever was inside this shelf.

After a moment, he spoke, “Were you the one looking at me?"

Of course, there couldn’t be any response. He was silent for a while, then let down the curtain.

Wei WuXian quietly attached himself to the object. Cold and hard, it seemed to be a helmet. He then turned to the front. As he had expected, he saw a pallid face. The one who sealed the head wanted it to see nothing, hear nothing, speak nothing, and so incantations had been crowded onto the waxen skin. The eyes, the ears, and the mouth were all sealed tightly shut.

There's containment, it's suppressed to all hell and back, and JGY quite justifiably expects it to be murderously obsessed with him, but to me it doesn't suggest a reciprocal obsession—just more fear.

I'll also note that as a strategy for containing the information about his own involvement it's a very successful operation! It failed in the end /eventually/, but the failure needed:

someone who could successfully break into his private treasure room and escape without being caught

who could also perform Empathy or a similar tecnnique on NMJ's head and survive it

who could successfully recreate from memory the altered Empathy song

whom LXC would be willing to listen to

That's a heck of a tall order!

As to being done with NMJ after the stairs, well, listen to what he says to LXC:

Jin GuangYao spoke with dejection, “But, Brother, didn’t you hear what he said in the oath? Every sentence meant something more. ‘Face a thousand accusing fingers, be torn from limb to limb’—this was clearly a warning for me. I… I’ve never heard of such an oath before.”

[...]

Jin GuangYao, “It’s not that I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong, but that sometimes I really can’t help. Nowadays, I have it bad no matter which side I’m on. I have to ensure that I’m on everyone’s good sides. I wouldn’t care if it were someone else, but have I mistreated our eldest brother in any way? Brother, you heard as well. What did he call me?”

[...]

Jin GuangYao was almost sobbing, “If he could say such a thing when he was angry, then just how does he think of me on a daily basis? Is it that because I couldn’t choose my background, because my mother couldn’t choose her fate, I’ll have to be humiliated by others throughout my whole life? If so, then how is Brother different from the people who look down on me? No matter what I do, in the end, just a sentence and I’m ‘the son of a prostitute’.”

And then of course there's what he says to LXC, in his speech to him at the end: "You, on the other hand, ZeWu-Jun, Sect Leader Lan, are as intolerant of me as Nie MingJue—you refuse to spare me even a single breath of life!"

So—wow, this got very long—I don't ship them, and although I think they have very much mattered emotionally to each other, I don't really see them as ever having been in love with or attracted to each other.

A couple of end notes:

In MDZS, NMJ isn't the first (non-MS) person who recognizes MY's worth, although he is the first person to promote him; by the time NMJ promotes MY MY has already met, rescued, and exchanged intimate confidences with LXC, who respects him greatly and thinks he is highly talented (see again the conversation in Hejian which NMJ overhears/eavedrops on).

I've seen people talk about them not understanding each other, but while NMJ certainly doesn't understand JGY, it's not at all obvious that the reverse is true; he generally seems to understand him pretty well. I think he has two surprises overall: first, that he wasn't expecting NMJ to say he didn't promote MY so MY would owe him, and volunteer to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation—and second, he wasn't expecting NMJ, who for all his flaws did seem to ignore JGY's background in good ways as well as bad, to call him the son of a prostitute.

I definitely don't read the coffin at the end as romantic. Or I mean, uh, there's the romance of an obsessive stalker-murderer finally getting his victim, and that's not nothing (unironically; look, I'm a Hannibal fan), but I don't think it's usually what people mean. This is a shitty end for JGY, part of how thoroughly he loses and is destroyed. I think to some extent it might be that he doesn't want LXC to be the one who killed him, and to some extent it's an act of defiance—now that he has nothing to lose, not even his life, he's going to go out fighting. I would expand on this but this post is ridiculously long and I have way too many quotes, maybe I'll do it in a separate post later on—but if you look at the description of it in the text, plus the subsequent description of it in the coffin...yeah. JGY didn't want to die, he didn't want to be engaged in a mutually destructive thing with NMJ; he wanted to leave NMJ behind in the past, and move on. It's not, for him any kind of fulfillment, is my read.

All quotes are taken from the Exiled Rebels translation: ch 48-50 for everything about NMJ and JGY's past relationship, ch. 47 for the description of JGY's containment measures for NMJ's head, and ch. 106-108 for the quotes about JGY's fear of NMJ's fierce corpse. The description of JGY going into the coffin is at the end of 108 if you want to have a look, and there's more in 109 and 110 about the difficulty of sealing NMJ's fierce corpse/its power and violence.

#ship meme #ship negativity #this is so goddamn long #how many quotes can I fit in one post? dear god #also there's no way the coffin is actually staying shut for 100 years see ch. 113 #also I didn't want to rely on material that isn't in the final text but if you do look at the scene of JGY cutting NMJ's head off #the same theme of NMJ's fierce corpse's murderous obsession + JGY's fear are very much there #also I'm not sure I'd call it a notp exactly? like obviously I don't see it but there are versions of it I can kind of enjoy #but I figured I was being well by all accounts it doesn't make sense enough that I wanted to circle it as like. a warning XP #we can't change places #anger burned in his heart #more than one tag could contain #long meta