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thehomelybrewster · 7 months

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Ability Scores in 5e & Other RPGs

This little rant is inspired by a post by a blog named The Angry GM, titled "Your Ability Scores Suck" as well as a post titled "8 Abilities - 6, 3, or 4 Ability scores?" by DIY & dragons, because those two articles and my past few months of looking at various TTPRGs have led me to some insights into my own philosophy in how I like TTRPGs and how I feel about 5e's Ability Scores.

So let's look at how a couple of RPGs handle ability scores or their equivalents. Namely I'll look at D&D 5e, Pathfinder 2e, The Dark Eye (4th Edition Revised), CAIRN, and Pokémon. Yes, Pokémon is relevant to this. And it'll actually be the second game we'll discuss, but the first obviously has to be...

D&D 5th Edition

D&D famously has six ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. In most situations the exact ability score no longer is that important, however, since from 3e onwards d20-based checks have become the near-universal input you play D&D with. This means that instead the ability score modifier is key, which ranges from -4 to +5 for most player characters.

Now while these six scores might seem pretty equal, players have quickly figured out that certain ability scores are more desirable than others, unless you play specific classes.

Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom are for example the three most common saving throws. 109 out of the 361 spells in the Player's Handbook force a saving throw using one of these three ability scores, while Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma only have 24 spells. Thankfully every D&D class gives proficiency with two saving throws, one of the three major ones, and one of the lesser ones (and certain subclasses as well as the monk get more saving throw proficiencies, but that's besides the point).

Additionally, when it comes to skills, and thus out-of-combat usefulness, Strength only has one skill tied to it by default (Athletics), while Constitution has none. Charisma has four skills to its name, Dexterity three, and both Intelligence and Wisdom have five.

Now the DIY & dragons article mentions that there are effectively three axes you have to cover with your ability scores: physical vs mental, force vs grace, and attack vs defense. That leads to eight abilities total. In 5e, using what we know about the game, we can make some great deductions.

For one, Strength is almost exclusively concerned with physical force attack, while Constitution nearly exclusively covers physical force defense. Dexterity meanwhile fully covers physical grace attack, as well as physical grace defense, since it affects AC and is used for Stealth, as well covering evasion-type saving throws. Dexterity is incredibly powerful in 5e, arguably the most powerful ability score.

On the mental stat side, the lines are less clear. All three ability scores can be used for offence, though Intelligence, being the casting ability score of only wizards and the generally utility-based artificers is the least offensive of the three. Still, its association with wizards means it probably is best associated with force, because fireball. Charisma easily can be sorted into grace and is mostly offensive, and Wisdom straddles the line between force and grace, but is also both clearly offensive and defensive.

As you can see, Intelligence & Wisdom & Charisma are rather ill-defined, a point also made by the The Angry GM article, but mechanically Wisdom is universally useful, while Charisma is either super important (because you're playing either a Charisma caster or a face-type non-caster, such as a rogue), or can easily be sidelined/dumped. In fact a lot of tables seem to disregard or minimize Charisma when it comes to roleplay, my tables have definitely done that. Mostly because you don't want to have players not participating in roleplay encounters because they don't have at least a +2 in Charisma and several skill proficiencies in that area.

Speaking of proficiencies, for skills the maximum you can add is +6 or +12 if you have expertise, while with saving throws the maximum proficiency bonus is +6, so with saving throws in particular, a +5 for a saving throw from that relevant abilty score is a massive defensive boon, though it's often less relevant for skill checks.

This knowledge, as well as the known issues with Intelligence-based skill checks often being seen as gate-keeping plot relevant information, leads to the realization that Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma are the three most frequent "dump stats", with the latter two in particular often having implications in out-of-combat situations, while Strength is a "safe" choice for full spellcasters.

Now let's think about how other games handle this... Let's begin, as I threatened in the beginning, with...

Pokémon

Pokémon famously uses six so-called base stats for its collectible creatures: HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed. Using the system described by DIY & dragons, Attack and Defense clearly map onto the physical, and Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense clearly onto the mental. There is no distinction made between grace and force. HP is a universally defensive stat, and Speed is both offensive and defensive.

Naturally, Pokémon doesn't involve dice rolls. These stats are used for formulas and comparisons. But you can already see that Pokémon, at least since Special got split into Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense starting in Gold & Silver, has a clear division of these stats, with it being clear what they do.

Now due to the mechanics and the goals of Pokémon, an individual character (read: the actual Pokémon) doesn't need to have balanced stats. Largely also because these stats only affect combat, the main mechanic of these games. Any out-of-combat activity present in Pokémon games in fact uses distinct stats, completely distinct from the base stats of the Pokémon. These can then be discarded/put into the background when that out-of-combat activity, such as Pokémon Contests, is removed from subsequent releases.

Now let's look at a D&D-related game that has a different approach to ability scores, because it provides a stepping stone to look at different RPGs...

Pathfinder 2nd Edition (Pre-2023 Revision)

Pathfinder, being a game spun out off the 3rd Edition of D&D, also uses the six ability scores that D&D uses: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Just like with 5e, Pathfinder associates certain skills with certain ability scores, and just like 5e, Strength and Constitution are connected to only one and no skills respectively.

Still, that's just part of the bigger picture. Pathfinder 2e, just like D&D 3e, doesn't use ability scores as saving throws. Rather it uses three distinct saving throws that are tied to ability scores. Those saving throws are Fortitude (Constitution), Reflex (Dexterity), and Will (Wisdom). These are, for the keen-eyed, the same ability scores that are the primary saving throws in 5e. This means that defenses are covered exclusively by these three ability scores, and of these Constitution remains purely defensive, while Dexterity and Wisdom also have offensive capabilities. Still, the offensive power of Dexterity is lowered because in general it cannot be used to increase your weapon damage, contrary to how 5e does it.

It should also be noted that both when it comes to skills and saving throws, the calculations for rolls are very different than in 5e! If you are proficient with a skill or saving throw, you add both a bonus equal to your degree of proficiency (from +2 to +8), as well as your character's level, to the roll, in addition to your ability score modifier. This leads to massive bonuses, especially since magical effects can be added to that, too. Of course Pathfinder uses a sliding scale to determine difficulty classes and has a degrees of success system, but with that knowledge, the -4 to +5 you add to your rolls will matter less than 5e's ability score modifiers do. In general, as long as the modifier is at least a +1, it's fine.

This has actually led to Wisdom being considered a dump stat for many Pathfinder players, and that especially applies when playing with one alternate rule that I want to highlight.

In the Gamemastery Guide, the Alternative Scores variant rule splits Dexterity into Dexterity and Agility, merges Strength and Constitution, and makes Charisma rather than Wisdom the relevant ability for Will saving throws. That variant rule acknowledges the power of Dexterity and the relative weaknesses of Strength and Constitution, but somehow strengthens Charisma further. I don't have any numbers or insight on how popular this alternate rule is, but given what I know about Pathfinder 2e character optimizers, I wouldn't adopt the change to Will saves if I were to run this variant rule myself.

Still, the knowledge of these three saving throws puts us nicely into the realm of indie RPGs, which have really run with this. So let's look at one as an example.

Cairn

This lovely little game written by Yochai Gal has been a well-supported indie darling and is currently in a playtest for a 2nd edition.

Cairn uses three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Willpower. It also uses a d20 roll under system, contrary to 5e and Pathfinder. This means that you aim to roll below your ability score, rather than adding a number to a d20 roll and seeing if you can meet the difficulty class threshold.

They are also, in combat, mostly defensive. Strength in combat mostly concerns surviving blows. Dexterity is used to determine if you move before the enemies and for escaping combat. Both Strength and Dexterity can be used for saving throws against certain spells. In combat Willpower is necessary to cast spells without suffering penalties.

Offensively none of the three ability scores are that important. They don't add to damage, they aren't important for making attacks, or anything of the sorts. Spellcasting outside of dangerous situations usually doesn't involve die rolls either.

This makes the three ability scores very balanced, but it also gives them comparatively little meaning. They are your protection from harm. Including out of combat. But Cairn doesn't know skill checks whose failure state isn't "nothing happens". If player characters have no pressure, they succeed. Especially if they have useful equipment for it.

Using the DIY & dragons blog post as reference, Strength only represents physical force defense, Dexterity only represents physical grace defense, and Willpower represents mental grace and force defense.

So, let's look at a different roll-under system, one that might provide additional inspiration for game designers...

The Dark Eye (4th Edition, revised)

The German TTRPG The Dark Eye (Das Schwarze Auge) is old, almost as old as D&D, and in its design its often as an antithesis for D&D. It's incredibly math-y, has a generally less heroic (but also categorically "good") playstyle, and is a class-less (kinda), level-less system. To ensure I know what I'm talking about, I'll focus on the 4th edition, which has by now been superceded by its own 5th edition, because that's the one edition of it I actually played.

DSA (its German acronym which I will use for brevity's sake) uses eight attribute (!) scores:

Courage, Cleverness, Intuition, Charisma, Dexterity, Agility, Constitution, and Strength.

Each of these eight attribute scores affects the character directly. Heroes have base values (melee attack, ranged attack, parry, initiative) that are calculated by adding together set combinations of attribute scores and dividing the sum, most often by 5, to determine those base values. For brevity's sake, let's look at two of these base values: attack and parry. Attack is calculated with Courage + Agility + Strength, while parry is calculated using Intuition + Dexterity + Strength. Both use two "physical" attributes and one "mental" attribute.

Similar rules also apply to calculating how much your character can withstand, be it through their general vitality (which is equivalent to hit points), their endurance (mostly used as a resource for athletic feats), and their wound limit, all of which can be used to defeat characters. Even the amount of astral points, the spellcasting resource, is calculated using your attribute scores. Every attribute is used at least once when calculating these eight values, with only Cleverness, Charisma, and Dexterity being used only for one of these eight fundamental character traits, with Charisma being the least important, because it is only used to calculate astral energy points, which are irrelevant for characters that don't know spells.

Furthermore skill checks in DSA are made by rolling three attribute checks in a row and then using skill points to modify the results if necessary. Skills use either three distinct attribute scores (e.g. Cooking, which requires Cleverness & Intuition & Dexterity), or two attribute scores (with one being used twice, e.g. Perception requires one Cleverness check and two Intuition checks). Simple attribute checks where you use only one attribute are rare, with heavy lifting often being the key example for it. There are also loads of skills in DSA, with the character sheet per default having twenty four skills, with more being common on most characters.

As you can hopefully see, all eight ability scores are used very often and impact your character greatly. They are furthermore more clearly delineated than the D&D standard, however they also don't map onto the DIY & dragons parameters for ability scores, despite having eight of them!

Conclusion

What can we learn from this? Well, honestly, draw your own conclusions. The six ability scores of D&D and Pathfinder are not the "be-all and end-all", that's for sure. You really need to think about what your game wants to do.

Is it just combat-focused? Then all ability scores should matter in combat and to (roughly) the same degree!

Does your game consist of multiple gameplay elements? If yes, then they should all be accessible and fun for players even if their base stats are "bad" in one aspect, while still allowing for specialization of player characters.

Generally, there is no "one size fits all" solution, and this rant hasn't even gone into ambiguity between different terms, the implications of specific terms and associated thresholds, or the exact history of ability scores in D&D before 3rd Edition!

Anyway, I hope this was legible, fun and informative.

#thehomelybrewster #rant tag #ttrpg design #dnd 5e #d&d 5e #dungeons and dragons #pathfinder 2e #The Dark Eye #The Electrum Archive #game design #rpg design #long post

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lily-orchard · 1 month

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Your post reminded me of how I once made an original tabletop game system to play with my friends because I thought D&D 5e was bad, and it had three main methods of damage mitigation where you can roll a strength check to block, roll a dex check to dodge, or do nothing and tank the attack with your armor much like how you described and honestly, I think it makes a lot most sense too because now you can have feats and traits and skills and shit dedicated solely to boosting defensive actions whereas D&D 5e has less of that and even "dodging-based" classes still rely on AC at the end of the day. I also realize that this isn't a question so I guess my question is, how often and for how long have you played D&D and what editions have you tried? Have you looked into Pathfinder at all?

I played D&D with my brother when I was a kid. Not often, but when the chance came we played a lot. Played 2E mostly because we both knew that from Baldur's Gate and his friends were amenable to it.

Tried 3E, 3.5E and 5E as an adult. 3E was fine, 5E is garbage.

I have not played Pathfinder.

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ttrpgbrackets · 7 months

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This is a replacement poll for the previous, now deleted, bracket containing Don't You Know Who I Am and a move with low quality propaganda.

Don't You Know Who I Am?

When you meet someone who knows you by reputation (you decide), roll +heart. 10+, say two things they've heard about you. 7-9, you say one and the GM says one.

What makes it cool?

The double edged sword of "I'm famous and can declare unilaterally someone knows me by reputation," but with the risk of the GM deciding what that reputation is in this case.

Elemental Grit

People always think they know exactly how to take you down, but you’re prepared for the worst. 3/day if your Pokémon with your favored type is hit by a super-effective or extremely-effective attack, the attack is treated as a resisted successful attack.

What makes it Cool?

This move belongs to the Type Ace trainer class, your classic Gym Leader in training, who specializes in a specific type of pokemon. It's such a fun ace up your sleeve to let your Charizard tank a Water Shuriken and keep on trucking long enough to win the championship.

#indie ttrpg #ttrpg community #ttrpg design #tumblr bracket #round 1

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castle-ravenloft · 1 year

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the quickest history on dnd ability scores

you know how it doesn’t really make sense by dnd ability scores go up to 20 but only even points matter which just bumps up another number which is the one that actually matters? well back in the last millennium dnd used a d20-roll-under system for ability checks. meaning that when you had 18 strength, you succeeded on a check if you rolled under an 18 or lower on your d20. the DM would impose modifiers depending on the difficulty of the task instead of setting a goal to reach.

in a lot of ways, it was much easier. the goal was always clearly defined, and the DM would only have to consider what would make the task more or less difficult for the PC, and the player didn’t have to do any math. but adnd2e also used slightly different rules for different rolls. ability checks were roll-under, saving throws were roll-over, ability checks could be used instead of saving throws when appropriate, and of course everyone’s favourite punching bag - thac0, which was really just a d20-roll-under modified by the targets AC.

what the seattle company did in 3e was that they made all rolls the same type - d20 roll over - but additionally they made the DM have to make objective calls on how difficult a task was (something that’s really hard to do) and hand out penalties and bonuses on top of that. not to mention that players now had to do math (simple addition and subtraction, but still - math!) instead of just rolling under the number on their sheet.

importantly, because difficulty classes were now a thing, ability scores didn’t mean anything in and of themselves. instead they introduced ability modifiers, which were the real numbers that went up or down every even number of ability score.

like a lot of things in contemporary dnd, ability scores just look like that because they used to look like that - even if their function has essentially been completely removed.

#k37 #dnd

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fumiko-matsubara · 2 years

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Rules against Class E students don't work for the most part - A fairly detailed analysis

So to start this off, let's list out all the cons the kids got for dropping to Class 3-E.

Fairly poor learning environment: old wooden building with no air conditioning and heater for summer and winter season accommodations, located at a mountain top, likely with poor transmissions.

This is fairly bad itself if you look at it in a third party perspective. However, it was never specified in the school rules against 3E students modifying the building themselves in accordance to their comfort.

And as I have stated in the first chapter of my fanfic TARGET ON, although through the perspective of our queen Miki herself:

In the Gakuhou episode, we've literally seen Class E repairing the partially wrecked school building by themselves, and Gakuhou just let them be. I bet he wouldn't even blink an eye if the kids had installed an air conditioner or heater in their classroom, using their own money. (Karasuma's initial proposal to do the same was rejected because the cost would then be covered by the government).

And with the way the current generation of 3E students are, learning in an old wooden building is the least of their concerns... well, except for the lack of air conditioning and heater, that is, as well as the 1 km distance towards the main building when attending monthly school assemblies during lunch break.

Discrimination - considering this whole thing being like the "worst" that could happen to a 3E student is a tad bit confusing.

Our lovely @/blazardragon had translated this part of the character book, where it specified that majority of the shit-talking 3E students have been receiving are from Class 3-D students, which we have seen plenty of times in the manga.

And it's a fairly realistic scenario, actually. Non geniuses 3A kids are way too busy with keeping up with their studies (aka attending cram school and such) to even waste their time on mocking an irrelevant class.

3B students are booked and busy, maintaining their grades while making sure they're at their best conditions when doing their club activities. Like the sport aces are mostly in that class and as we've seen in the interaction Sugino had with his former baseball teammates, they didn't even bother with talking shit to them lol.

And I highkey feel like that 3C students would tend to forget that they even have the power to discriminate against 3E students however they like. Most likely because they're just... a normal class. Not too high and not too low, just vibing comfortably in the middle. Being in a class like that would reasonably make one forget that there was even a harsh system in that school. For proof, we have the retaliation chapter, where Kaho belatedly realizes that she can actually put the whole blame towards Maehara without being questioned because he's just a mere scummish 3E student.

And as for Class 3-D students:

Pretty much self-explanatory now, is it?

Aside from the monthly assemblies in which of course everyone would shit on the kids as the dean was literally prompting them to do so, on a usual day, it's just the same 40 students with recycled comments 😭 Actually, maybe not all 40 3-D students. Some reasonable kids could just not bother to specifically approach a 3E kid to talk shit about them.

So unless one is a sensitive soul that gets affected by every damn negative thing said about them, regardless if it's the same old tauntings, I don't think the current generation of 3E students would care so much about the discrimination they faced in school if we're being honest here.

The so-called hierarchy between Class E and the other 3rd years - in which, based on my understanding from Gakuho's brief explanation of the concept, is when 3E students could never talk over any main building student.

Which, let's be real here, is a completely useless rule since 3E students are literally located a whole kilometer away from the main building 3rd years and are never allowed to stay within the main campus, except for the mandatory school assemblies... that occurs monthly.

"But they could still encounter each other whenever they enter/exit the school and outside of the school campus."

You think that the 3E kids wouldn't make the effort to avoid them when they go through the gates, now? Or that they don't make sure they wouldn't encounter any main building student off campus??

Of course they would lol. Who would wanna let themselves be ridiculed on public?? 😂

What happened in the retaliation chapter was just stupidity on Maehara's part lol. He literally called Seo an idiot, the very virtuoso from Class A with anger issues, so what else does he expect?? He dated a bunch of girls after Kaho too, so why the hell did he willingly choose to come back to her life, knowing he's a Class E student with little to no rights against a student from a much higher class?? His choice hence his fault.

3E Students are forbidden to participate in school club activities - another loophole found in this 3E policy lol.

As revealed in the baseball arc, despite being kicked out of the school baseball team, Sugino was still able to join a local baseball team in their town without actually violating the school rule. Then the same would go for the other 3E kids who got kicked out of their old clubs, especially for the athletes who can just easily join a local team.

Like it was Gakuhou, of all people, who revealed that information and even commended Sugino for working hard despite his disadvantages.

When I tell you that this man DOES NOT CARE about people finding loopholes in his system 😭

Students who are still in 3-E by the end of the 2nd semester will not be permitted to graduate - basically when a 3E student have been failing to rank within the Top 50 until December. Their last chance to rank was the 2nd semester final exams, in which had they succeeded in ranking high, they are allowed to transfer back to their old class and then spend the remaining school year only preparing for their high school entrance exams.

To be honest, this is the only 3E con that is actually a con of being a 3E student.

But then again, our current generation of 3E students pulled a 180° and managed to all rank within the top 50, decided to stay in Class E, and still graduate along with the other 3rd years.

And as for the previous generations of 3E students, maybe not all, but some of them could have just easily brushed off not graduating from Kunugigaoka, transfer to a more normal junior high, and graduate there instead.

Failing to graduate, regardless of what school one is from, could be very hard for a lot of students. But at the same time, there are also students who don't make a big deal out of not graduating, especially from a very academically challenging prestigious school like Kunugigaoka.

So what do we get from this section? The disadvantages of being a Class 3-E student aren't really a disadvantage with the amount of loopholes you can find in the implemented rules.

#this analysis isn't as detailed as my usual ones #but since I did pick out the things I wanna talk about and broke them down each #i guess it does the job #this is about the class e system itself by the way #not what other aspect that comes along with being a class e student (eg. disappointment and family pressure and all that)#that's a different topic altogether #but the kids did pull through in the end #korosensei had been a great pillar of support for these children after all #assassination classroom #ansatsu kyoushitsu #assclass #class e #my analysis #meta #my thoughts

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asknarashikari · 9 months

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[crossover with ansatsu kyoushitsu (adult class 3e)]

Karasuma: Thank you, Ritsu.

Ritsu: Is it really necessary, to put him down?

Karasuma: He’s become too dangerous, Ritsu.

Ritsu: We know Beroba and Kekera gave the drivers to those terrorists right and sabotaged his wish.

Jelavic: He’s still become too dangerous.

Jelavic: I’m sorry Ritsu.

Karasuma: Of course if Ukiyo wants to save Sakurai, despite the atrocities he’s committed…

Jelavic: I wouldn’t go that far yet.

Jelavic: While he’s currently a mob boss equivalent.

Jelavic: He’s kept the gang riders in check.

Karasuma: That is true…

---

Ace: No, Tycoon’s not that low yet, just trust him.

Win: Oh, so the Ministry of Defense is now getting themselves involved.

Michinaga: Ministry of Defense?

Michinaga: Oi, Geats!

Ace: Companies such as the Kurama Zaibatsu has been giving the government hush money so that the DGP could continue its operations.

Win: And Na-Go’s father so happen to be the convenient scapegoat, hence he was the only one arrested.

Win: They’re going to send their assassination squad?

Michinaga: Assassination squad?

Karma: No, not just yet.

Karma: But they will soon.

Nagisa: Hello, Azuma-kun, how’s it been?

Michinaga: You! Hebiku!

Michinaga: I thought I crushed your ID core!

Nagisa: I’m not here as a Rider, I don’t think Ace-kun could bring back the ID core that I let you destroy.

Ace: So you were holding back while a contestant?

Nagisa: I was entered because the Ministry of Defense wanted information on the DGP.

Nagisa: Didn’t even write something for the wish.

Nagisa: And yes there were a lot of us that were entered into the DGP before.

Win: So they’re waiting for our god of creation to decide whether to kill Tycoon or not?

Ace: And I’m saying no.

Karma: Welp, Ritsu you heard the godly person on this planet.

Ritsu: I’m telling Karasuma-san!

----

Goon1: There she is, Head, she wants to see you.

Keiwa: Who are you? And What do you want?

Kekera: Oho, Sakurai Keiwa, a beautiful girl wants you and you’re treating her that way?

Jelavic: I want to talk to you oh handsome head.

Keiwa: Go away, I have no business with you.

Jelavic: Oh but I do.

Jelavic: *glares at Keiwa and brandishes her guns and fires at him.*

Keiwa: Henshin *transforms into Bujin Sword and cuts down all the bullets coming at him.*

Kekera: Oi, oi! Help out your head!

Keiwa: No need, I can handle this myself.

Keiwa: No need to get everyone else involved.

Jelavic: Should you really talk like that to the assassin assigned to kill you?

Kekera: An assassin! You’ve really gotten to the big leagues! Sakurai Keiwa!

Keiwa: I didn’t realize that the ministry of defense employed assassins.

Jelavic: Oh, how’d you know that I work for the ministry of defense.

Keiwa: Just a hunch.

Jelavic: You’re a lot smarter than people give you credit for.

Keiwa: Kekera, Beroba, if you want to make yourself useful, why don’t you turn away the people that are about to jump at me from above!

Jelavic: Abort the mission boys, it seems Ritsu’’s information is accurate.

*A lot of men jumped down from the second floor and went behind Jelavic.*

???: Well take those.

Multiple shadowed people stole Beroba’s and Kekera’s cards.

Beroba: Wha-

Kekera: How-

Jelavic: Good work girls.

???: It was our pleasure Bitch-sensei.

----fastforward: basically, Ritsu fires BBs at everyone and releases smoke at the same time, courtesy of Itona’s invention, while Nagisa stuns Keiwa before Isogai and Maehara grabbed Keiwa’s hands and ran somewhere where Beroba and Kekera aren’t around.----

Keiwa: *detransforms out of Bujin Sword*

Keiwa: You got me out of the hideout, what now?

Keiwa: if you really are sent to kill me, you would have already done so earlier.

Jelavic: Like I said smarter than given credit.

Nagisa: Can’t you be persuaded Sakurai-kun?

Keiwa: If I don’t do this, I lose my only chance at reviving my family

Isogai: Even at the cost of everyone else’s family?

Keiwa: I TRIED DOING THE RIGHT THING?! WHAT DID THAT GET ME?! IT KILLED MY SISTER!

Keiwa: I’m not going to be a door mat any longer.

Keiwa: They wanted me to fight for my desires so I’m doing it.

Maehara: But the sacrifices.

Keiwa: As long as my family gets to live, I don’t care what happens after.

-----

Karasuma: What now?

Ace: Give me one last shot.

Ace: I do hope that you won’t resort to killing him.

Ace: The punishment doesn’t fit the supposed crime that you’re pinning on him.

Karasuma: We’ll see.

----

Geats cast react. The cast are when after they yanked Keiwa’s out of Kekera’s hold, so yes Keiwa is among the reactors XD

I'm just smiling at the thought of this being the live action versions because Karma was played by Masaki Suda (aka our resident human search engine Philip)

Anyway, I kinda think everyone will be a bit speechless at the government going that far to pull Keiwa out... and definitely a little suspicious, because in canon the government was well aware of the DGP shenanigans and were actually in on the conspiracy in a similar fashion to Kurama Kousei- keeping their existence a secret from the public in return for wish(es). While getting Keiwa away from the influence of Kekera and co is a good thing, the government involvement stinks of a coverup from above. They're probably doing it only for their own benefit, i.e. to erase their own involvement in this sick game.

On the other hand, Keiwa being supposedly perceptive enough to read through the deception and knowing they were there to "rescue" him rather than eliminate him may surprise them. Though they'd be disappointed with his stubbornness.

#kamen rider geats #assassination classroom #sakurai keiwa #ask #hxmxbros

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bretongirlwrites · 2 years

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The asks for Julianne

for julianne i went for the general and background questions...

Name: Julianne Traven

Associated game/era: Oblivion, born in 3E 392

Race: Breton

Sexual orientation: very ace

Class (or a general description of their skillset): mage, specialising in alteration, alchemy and restoration

Background

Is this character from their race's home province/territory? If not, what is their relationship with the region? Do they feel a connection to it?

julianne, her sister and her mother are all from anvil, which is her very favourite city in the world. her father's family moved from high rock with the usual excuse: to escape the petty politics and oppressive societal norms. julianne has visited daggerfall a handful of times - the first time perfectly under the illusion that she'd immediately feel an affinity to it: so she was startled when she did not. found herself lost among dark timber frames, and a dialect she'd only ever known second-hand

Where did they grow up? A city? A village? Isolated, in the wilderness? What was it like to leave?

the traven's house is right in the centre of anvil, a pretty affair near to the mages' guild: and while julianne has spent most of her life now living in the imperial city, she misses anvil intensely, and often goes back, - far less hurried; much more friendly; and the dank and close rumare fog is a far cry from the infinite liberated sea breezes of home

What was their childhood like? Who raised them? Do they have siblings?

hannibal and myriam traven were always decent enough parents, - a little on the strict side perhaps; and always encouraging the best of their children; but kind and adoring, and attentive to their budding interests...

julianne taking to magic at a young age, she was often taken to the mages’ guildhall to watch the other mages at work; and being fond of reading, had more books than you could shake a stick at. it was only natural she’d follow in her father’s footsteps: she has always looked up to him, and he was always her most ardent teacher

her sister corinne is less academic; but that does not mean they don’t get on. indeed when julianne’s life starts to diverge from corinne’s - and in some cases quite drastically, when the latter joins the city watch and the former joins the thieves’ guild - julianne misses her, and feels nostalgic for their joint upbringing

If they are an adventurer, why did they choose that life? Did they choose it at all?

‘i am an adventurer in spirit,’ julianne might say: and indeed her imagination wanders far and wide, even when her daily walks only wind over city isle or the gold coast clifftops. when however she finds herself in truly dangerous situations, she is quite out of her depth: only knowing battle-magics theoretically; and finding the reality of endless forest and damp socks to be perfectly unbearable, compared with dreaming in an armchair with a nice mug of hot chocolate

Do they worship any gods? Who? How do they feel about the gods in general?

in theory, julianne favours julianos, as the preferred god of mage-scholars; in practice, it’s more because she’s named for him than anything else. really she is a bit indifferent towards the gods - believes they exist; but is mostly religious out of cultural tradition, going to chapel on special occasions, but not often thinking about it otherwise. her ventures as an occasional bellringer in anvil were all out of love of music, and nothing out of association of that music with dibellan theories of art

it’s only during the daedric (and aedric) interventions of the oblivion crisis that she really starts to question the beliefs she’s never really bothered with... the influence of marianne, who despite being the grey fox is fond of the aedra (especially mara and zenithar), also tilts her a little towards more regular chapel-visiting, if only as a gesture of acknowledgement

What are their interpersonal relationships like? Are they close with many people?

she is gregarious when the occasion calls for it; and indeed may be seen by some as perfectly sociable; but in truth has a small circle of close friends, and finds it difficult to make new ones out of acquaintances

her best friend at the university is tara-lei, a brilliant but rather more sensible mage who helps keep her from becoming excessively distracted. marianne is also one of her greatest friends - a partner in crime, you might say, who fills a little of the gap left by childhood antics with corinne

What guilds do they join? Are they committed to those guilds, or are they mostly in them for the benefits?

the mages’ guild is her life and love - she never anticipated becoming arch-mage; but really it’s the perfect role for her, since she has ever been so devoted to it. devoted enough, indeed, almost to die for it, when mannimarco threatened all that she held dear... it’s an admirable aim, to make magical resources and instruction available to all: that is what has stuck with her ever since she first read the guild-charter. when she visited the original guild-hall in firsthold, she almost fainted from excitement

the thieves’ guild is a more occasional occupation: but that does not mean she is not committed to it. she admires the grey fox more than most of the cyrodiil nobility, and almost romanticises the robin-hood-esque mission of the guild. while she rarely undertakes any actual thefts, she becomes essential in the legwork for them - in researching, in enabling, in training. and then when it’s done there’s a warm hearth in a strangely cosy little house on the waterfront; friends of value infinitely beyond their means; and life lessons to be learnt, always

#oc:julianne #gods that took a while. but always happy to talk about my favourite little traven :)

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landoflustfulladies · 1 year

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How is 3e different from 5e dnd?

So there's a lot that sets it apart, despite a similar core mechanical framework. I'll try and hit some high notes though. TLDR same basic engine but with a lot more depth. I will probably still ramble a lot so, uh, time for readmore...

First off, there's a lot more numbers. Instead of the advantage disadvantage system, a lot more things have a direct numerical effect on your rolls. Flanking an enemy for example, gives you a +2 bonus to your attack roll. Being surprised doesn't give enemy advantage, instead you lose your dexterity bonus to your AC cause, well, you aren't dodging.

Second off, just about everything has a bit more depth to it. For example, in 5e weapons have a damage die and maybe a couple tags. In 3.5, there's first off a lot more weapons and use some different dice combos. As an example, falchions and scythes do 2d4 damage. The versatile tag was actually a simplification of the fact that any weapon can be wielded in two hands (well, except light weapons). Wielding a weapon in one hand adds strength to damage, but two handing it boosts your strength bonus to damage by 50%. Oh, and you know all weapons in 5e crit on a 20 for an extra die on damage? Well, default crit in 3.5 is a 20 for double damage, but some weapons have more threat range. A light mace, a shortsword, and a rapier all do d6 damage but the mace crits on a 20, the shortsword on a 19, and the rapier on an 18. That and some weapons do more on a crit. A heavy pick is d6 damage and crits on a 20, but does four times as much damage on a crit. I have gone on this long just about different weapons with different pros and cons. My players all spent significant time thinking about their primary weapons.

Oh yeah, you know how feats kinda sucked in 5e? In 3.5, they are practically character defining. Good news is you get them more often! Every character starts with a feat for free, humans get a second one, and then every three levels you get another one! These are in addition to stat boosts every four levels. Now, some things that were feats in 5e are free in 3.5 (like being able to charge), and some that are feats in 3.5 are free in 5e (like being able to use dexterity to hit with light weapons), bit of a give and take there. But yeah, do it right and you can be pretty insane!

Oh yeah, skills work way different! Instead of picking a handful at character generation to be Proficient in, you get a certain number of Skill Points each level based on your class and intelligence, and you can distribute those between your skills as you please (capped at 4 ranks at level 1, goes up by one each level). Your class has a list of Class Skills you can buy at the normal rate, but you can still buy non class skills, they just cost double and have half the cap. What this means is a fighter might not be as good as the rogue at sneaking but he can still be good at if he wants. This also means you can choose to get a smaller bonus to your rolls in exchange for taking more skills by spreading your points around!

Oh yeah, did it ever strike you that everyone was as good with their weapons as the Fighter, the Designated Hitting Stuff Guy? Well, in 3.5, instead of everyone getting the same proficiency bonus, each class has their Base Attack Bonus. Fighters and other classes with Full BAB go up a point every level, things like Rogues and Clerics go up at a rate that comes out to about 3/4 levels (so at level 20 they get +15), and folks like Wizards get Slow BAB where they go up every other level. So yeah, the fighter will actually be better at hitting things.

God I could go on but even on my bigass monitor I can’t see the top of my post so I should probably ease up. God, and I haven’t even gotten to prestige classes... Uh, those are basically a fancy way of multiclassing that have certain requirements before you start taking them in exchange for being more specialized than regular classes. A lot of 5e subclasses were based off prestige classes from 3.5, so you can probably still play your favorite stuff. There’s also a lot more base classes! Swashbuckler is its own class as an example, instead of being a subset of rogue, it’s an absolutely devastating finesse DPS.

Oh, and monster variety! There are so few monsters in 5e compared to 3.5! I have six different books full of monsters open when I’m planning encounters! Seriously, so much more to work with!

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honey-milk-depresso · 2 years

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So Honey you don't like Trey, Ace and Azul huh? So what's there zodiac and birthday also there height? Hmmm? Ms. I'm not a simp for Trey, Ace and Azul but secretly (not so secretly) simp for them

Ew no I don’t like them-

T*ey is born on 25 October as a Scorpio, 181 cm, Class 3E, club is Science Club, favourite food crystallised violets, least favourite food is mustard

A*e is born on 23 September as a Libra, 175 cm, Class 1A which is most obvious, club is Basketball club, favourite food cherry pie, least favourite is oyster

A*ul is born on 24 February as a Pisces, 176 cm, Class 2C, club is the boards game club, favourite food is fried chicken and he hates healthy food-

also i just realised the days of their birthdays goes 23, 24, 25

#ew t*ey >:(((#ew a*e >:(((#ew a*ul >:(((#Wait-#honey.txt #honeymilkdepresso.exe #(っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ najimi murasakino ♥

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pathfinderunlocked · 2 years

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Shadowless Shadowdancer - CR8 Humanoid/Undead

This vampire has a shadow.

Artwork is a combination of art by Reason on Pixiv, art by lowercasek on DeviantArt, and art from D&D 3e by Wizards of the Coast.

Sorry for the double-multiclassed character with three archetypes and a template, but I had a very specific idea of what I wanted to do with this creature, and was determined to do so within the rules for once.

The artwork for this NPC is based on Shinobu Oshino, a vampire character from Monogatari, but the NPC’s powers really don’t have much to do with that character. I just wanted to make a shadowdancer. The NPC Codex and d20pfsrd don’t have a lot of NPCs with archetypes or prestige classes. And the idea of a vampire shadowdancer, who doesn’t have a shadow, but whose shadow disguises itself as her shadow, is just so cool. I ended up making the character a dhampir instead of a full-fledged vampire, though, not because of balance or flavor reasons, but just because it didn’t need any more special abilities.

NPCs don’t normally get traits, but she has a single drawback trait, so she gets a single beneficial trait to make up for it. The drawback trait causes her to have no shadow, like a vampire.

Outside of combat, her shadow stays in the ground as an incorporeal creature, but takes the shape of her shadow on the ground’s surface and matches her movements.

Shurikens have the monk special quality and can be used with flurry of blows, but her katana doesn’t. She can create a light monk weapon such as a siangham using Umbral Gear and make a flurry of blows with that, but there’s rarely a reason to do so instead of using shurikens or unarmed strikes. These attacks usually just do 1 nonlethal damage (which is what happens when an attack’s damage gets reduced to 0 by penalties), but most of her damage comes from sneak attacks and Prey On Fear. When performing a flurry of blows, she can spend a ki point to gain a fourth attack.

In combat, she often begins by charging an enemy to gain her sneak attack, using punishing kick to knock them backwards, and then activating her Quick Runner’s Shirt to back away. If an enemy moves up to her, she attacks them once and then uses Fast Getaway to escape. Once her Quick Runner’s Shirt is used up, she primarily attacks from range with flurries of shurikens. When escaping, she uses her Slippers of Scampering to run up the walls if possible. Her shadow companion acts as a front line tank while she runs around.

The shadow companion doesn’t give its own XP - it’s factored into the Shadowless Shadowdancer’s challenge rating and XP already, like an animal companion.

Shadowless Shadowdancer - CR 8

The girl seems like a normal human at first, neither armored nor carrying a single piece of equipment, and wearing only a sun dress - until she draws a weapon out of her own shadow. And then the shadow itself rises up from the ground, still bearing her image.

XP 3,200 Young dhampir, kishu + scout ninja 4 / hungry ghost unchained monk 1 / shadowdancer 4 CE Small humanoid (dhampir) Init +8 Senses darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision; Perception +21

DEFENSE

AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 20 (+6 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 mage armor, +4 monk, +1 natural, +1 size) hp 46 (1d10+8d8) Fort +4, Ref +14, Will +6 (+2 vs. disease and mind-affecting) Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft. Melee +1 ghost touch effortless lace katana +16/+11 (1d6+7/18-20) or flurry of blows unarmed strike +13/+13/+8 (1d4-3) Ranged flurry of blows mwk shuriken +16/+16/+11 (-2) Special Attack flurry of blows, ki pool (3 points), punishing kick (3/day), scout’s charge, sneak attack +2d6

Spell-like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +5) 2/day—silent image (DC 14) 1/day—shadow conjuration (DC 15), shadow duplicate (see text) 40 ft./day—shadow jump (see text)

STATISTICS

Str 4, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 13 Base Atk +7; CMB +3 (+13 with katana); CMD 27 Feats Dodge, Mobility, Punishing Kick, Slashing Grace (katana), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (katana, shuriken) Traits Reactionary, Umbral Unmasking Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +6, Disable Device +20, Intimidate +15, Linguistics +3, Perception +21, Perform (dance) +6, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +18, Use Magic Device +6 Language Common, Necril SQ stern gaze, umbral gear Gear +1 small katana, effortless lace (applied to katana), mwk small shuriken x50, amulet of natural armor +1, headband of inspired wisdom +2, quick runner’s shirt, slippers of scampering, wand of mage armor (23 charges; already used), wand of inflict light wounds (15 charges), concealed weapon sheath, concealed shuriken pouch

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Umbral Unmasking (Ex) The shadowless shadowdancer casts no shadow whatsoever. Typically, when not in combat, her shadow companion disguises itself as her shadow, hiding this fact. Creatures that succeed at a DC 15 Wisdom check in normal light notice the strangeness of her shadow (an additional Perception check may be required based on environmental conditions). This telltale sign of wickedness cannot be concealed by misdirection, nondetection, or illusions, except those that also affect shadows (such as invisibility).

Vampiric Empathy (Su) The shadowless shadowdancer can communicate with bats, rats, and wolves as if under the effects of a speak with animals spell. In addition, she gains a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks when dealing with these animals. The animals begin with a starting attitude of indifferent.

Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) Though a living creature, the shadowless shadowdancer reacts to positive and negative energy as if she were undead—positive energy harms her, while negative energy heals her.

Resist Level Drain (Ex) The shadowless shadowdancer takes no penalties from energy drain effects, AKA negative levels, though she can still be killed if she accrues more negative levels then she has Hit Dice.

Unarmored AC Bonus (Ex) While unarmored and unencumbered, the shadowless shadowdancer gains a bonus to AC and CMD equal to her wisdom modifier. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when she is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su) The shadowless shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, she can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Flurry of Blows (Ex) The shadowless shadowdancer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, giving her one additional attack at her highest base attack bonus. She must make these attacks using any combination of her unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality (such as her shurikens, but not her katana).

Ki Pool (Su) The shadowless shadowdancer has a pool of 3 ki points per day. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start.

By spending 1 point from her ki pool as a swift action, she can do one of the following: Make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus when making a full attack Increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round Give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round

Prey On Fear (Su) Whenever a shadowless shadowdancer deals sneak attack damage to a shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent, she adds +4 precision damage to her first successful attack that she makes against that opponent each round.

Scout’s Charge (Ex) Whenever the shadowless shadowdancer makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

Shadow Duplicate (Sp) Once per day as an immediate action when the shadowless shadowdancer is hit, she can create a single shadow duplicate of herself, as per mirror image. The GM randomly determines whether the attack hit the shadowless shadowdancer or the shadow duplicate. The shadow duplicate lasts for 4 rounds or until dispelled or destroyed. This ability does not stack with the mirror image spell.

Umbral Gear (Su) As a standard action while in an area of dim light or darkness, the shadowless shadowdancer can coalesce wisps of shadow into a quasi-real, functional item. The shadowless shadowdancer must choose whether to make a crowbar, 50 feet of silk rope, a glass cutter, a light melee weapon with which she is proficient, a reversible cloak, thieves’ tools, or a wire saw.

The shadowless shadowdancer can use such items for 14 minutes per day. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1-minute increments. An item created with this ability remains until the shadowless shadowdancer is no longer touching it, or until she runs out of duration for this talent, at which time it dissolves.

Punishing Kick (Ex) When attempting an melee attack, three times per day, the shadowless shadowdancer can attempt to perform a punishing kick. If the attack is successful, it deals damage normally and the shadowless shadowdancer can choose to push her target 5 feet or attempt to knock them prone. A DC 18 Fortitude save negates being knocked prone. The save DC is Wisdom-based.

Shadow Jump (Sp) The shadowless shadowdancer can travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. The shadowless shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way. This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.

Shadowless Shadowdancer’s Shadow

CE Medium undead (incorporeal) Init +2 Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8

DEFENSE

AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+2 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 mage armor) hp 23 (3d8+6) Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +3 Defensive Abilities incorporeal, channel resistance +6 Immune undead traits, turn undead, command undead

OFFENSE

Speed fly 40 ft. (good) Melee incorporeal touch +9 (1d6 Strength damage) Special Attacks create spawn

STATISTICS

Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 15 Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 22 Feats Dodge, Skill Focus (Perception) Skills Fly +11, Perception +8, Stealth +8 (+12 in dim light, +4 in bright light); Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in dim light (–4 in bright light) Languages Common

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Strength Damage (Su) A shadow’s touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.

Inherited Abilities (Ex) A shadowless shadowdancer’s shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer’s total. The shadow companion uses the shadowdancer’s base attack bonus and base save bonuses.

Linked Death (Su) If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowless shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowless shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowless shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

#D&D #pathfinder 1e #humanoid #undead #dhampir #ninja #monk #shadowdancer #npc

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gedthestudent · 8 months

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5+2 Micro-Reviews of my favorite D&D Retro-Clones

OSRIC and Hyperborea 3e

I am very partial to the Advanced flavors of Dungeons & Dragons so its no surprise that these are included in my favorites. OSRIC is a relatively faithful retro-clone of the first edition of AD&D, a game much maligned as the most un-designed among the editions of D&D. It turns out once you remove Gary Gygax's appalling writing, weapon versus AC adjustment tables, and endless Dragonsfoot debates about initiative rules, you arrive at an excellent game. For a free product, it comes with a surprising amount of charming art in the black-and-white style now synonymous with the OSR. The book is not only free but it is three books in one: a player's book, a game master's book, and a bestiary. Hyperborea 3e on the other hand is a AD&D 1e retro-clone that is laser-focused on the sword and sorcery genre. It also streamlines AD&D 1e by smoothing over some of the game's peculiarities. Attribute modifiers are simplified, weapon damage versus size adjustments are dissolved, and segment-based initiative is dissolved in favor for a phase-based initiative in the spirit of Holmes' Basic D&D. Multi-classing is also dissolved in favor of providing a rich variety of distinct sub-classes. Hyperborea 3e also includes robust spell research rules. Spell levels in this retro-clone only reach the heights of spell level 6. The two-column formatting and black-and-white art is wonderful. Hyperborea 3e comes in two books, one for players and the other for game masters. The latter book includes an even a more detailed gazetteer for Jeffrey Talanian's namesake setting, the bestiary, and more rules.

Dungeon Crawl Classics

Dungeon Crawl Classics is a fascinating and idiosyncratic retro-clone based on the scaffolding of D&D 3e. DCC has unified d20 resolution mechanics, ascending AC, and the emblematic three saving throws of reflex, fortitude, and willpower. That is where the similarities end. DCC is as much as game as it is a shameless indulgence of the spirit of old school D&D. Death is common, dungeons are dangerous, and the world is gonzo. DCC adopts the race-classes of Basic/Expert D&D but also endeavors to be its own game with two defining features: funnels and extensive charts. Heroes are not made, they are found. Level-0 characters must survive an ultra-lethal dungeon before they are able to enjoy the first level of a class. Funnels are a tool to teach OSR principles and they have the subtlety of a blunt executioner's axe. Do not be fooled by the book's length. The game is a simple and familiar. Most of the length comes from the tables for spell checks, critical fumbles, and critical successes. The other defining feature of the game is the incredible flavor held in these tables and in the situations that arise from rolling on them. DCC is both a premier retro-clone and the single greatest instrument of mainstream D&D deprogramming.

Castles & Crusades

Castles & Crusades is both understated and underrated. To describe the game in the most simple terms, it is AD&D 1e reimagined with the unified d20 resolution of D&D 3e and beyond. The game includes all of the iconic D&D classes and the eighth printing in particular is to be applauded for its superb art and formatting. Punitive attribute requirements are dissolved, ascending AC is used, and multi-classing is presented in an accessible manner. My only criticism that the explanation for the non-combat resolution mechanic is poor. All Difficulty Classes are 18. All rolls are modified by the one of the six classic attributes. If the roll includes the character's primary attribute, they receive an additional +6 to their roll. If the roll includes the one of the character's class abilities, they receive an additional bonus equal to their level. This is the game to play if your table wants to engage with AD&D but do not want to engage with its vestigial qualities.

Old School Essentials and Advanced Labyrinth Lord

Old School Essentials is a 1-to-1 retro-clone of B/X D&D presented in a best-in-industry, control panel format. Game mechanics are stripped bare and presented in a brutalist fashion that leaves no room for ambiguity. Descending and ascending AC are both included. All the art is wholesome and not at all missing the OSR charm. Advanced Fantasy is the definitive version of the game that includes everything in the Classic Fantasy tome but introduces reimagined features and rules from both AD&D and Unearthed Arcana. Labyrinth Lord was the retro-clone that preceded OSE. Advanced Labyrinth Lord is a comprehensive game that includes everything in the first iteration of Labyrinth Lord but incorporates the Advanced Edition Companion. This results in an experience that cleaves much more faithfully to AD&D proper. Classes' attribute requirements are here and descending AC is used. Segment-based initiative from AD&D 1e is absent. What OSE might lack in flavor, ALL has in abundance.

Swords & Wizardry Complete

Original D&D, or "OD&D," has no shortage of retro-clones either. There is Delving Deeper, Iron Falcon, White Box Fantasy Adventure Game, Swords and Wizardry, and more. Each seeks to clone various iterations of OD&D and each has its fans. Swords & Wizardry seeks to clone the original game and its supplements, which results in a streamlined game that approaches AD&D. More class options, a divorce between race and class, and both descending and ascending AC are all present. Swords & Wizardry also is known for its unified saving throw. There is no more wrestling with five categories of saving throws. The crowdfunded Revised edition of Swords & Wizardry Complete also comes with rules for morale and spell research.

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