#good omens discourse

[deramin2]

I don't know how to really express this except to come across as a "kids these days" scold, but so much of the criticism of queerness in Good Omens would simply not be a thing if kids these days watched more 20th century queer media. Or more complex indie queer media in general.

People seem to want a show that's like the straight stories they grew up with but gay. Or the gay fanfiction they grew up with. But that's not really the tradition it's coming from. First off the novel was released in 1990. Queer film classics of the time are Dead Poet's Society (1989) and Torch Song Trilogy (1988). The TV miniseries Tales of the City (1993) wasn't made until 3 years later and it was so far out there it never had a huge audience. Philadelphia (1993) is also 3 years out and was basically the first big studio queer film. The first fluffy queer Hallmark-style romcom wasn't until Big Eden in 2000, a full 10 years after publication.

Queer stories from the time it was written were about complex and often fraught relationships between people who the world was trying to force apart. There is an incredibly strong tradition in queer films of relationships with no guarantees they will work out both in the face of their personal baggage and the weight of the world. Take a film like Torch Song Trilogy that's about the two great loves of Arnold Beckoff's life over 9 years and how homophobia shapes them. Both externally (especially Allen) and internally like Ed struggling with his bisexuality and being terrified of being publicly out. Written and starred in by Harvey Fierstein, who identified as a gay man at the time and only came out as nonbinary last year.

The Boys In The Band (1968 play, filmed 1970 and 2020) was a monumental moment in Broadway history where finally there was a play about gay men in their own words where no one died and very strongly showed that homosexuality doesn't make people miserable but homophobia sure does. But that homophobia also throws their personal lives into constant turmoil and none of them are in happy relationships, although Hank and Larry are devoted to each other in their own fucked up way.

"Relationships are complicated and hard to make work and sometimes a struggle against the odds" is an aesthetic of classic queer film making. Partly it was influenced by the Hays Code (although independent films were not bound to it), partly influenced by the rampant queerphobia in society at the time that was inescapable. But it's also an aesthetic choice to resist the banal and unrealistic relationship depictions of straight media. There are actual stakes to the relationship. Queer people were actively resisting a world that said "Romance is seeing someone across the room and instantly falling in love with each other and little conflicts happen along the way but ultimately they're destined to be together and everything is happily ever after." Recall that "stalking as romance" was a completely inescapable trope in 1980s straight romance films, and every goddamn movie was being turned into a romance film.

So queer people in film and television when they can make what they please have a long tradition of saying instead "People don't always realize the feelings they've developed for a queer partner right away. They may have reasons for denying those feelings that are both a reflection of the cruelty in society and of their own insecurities. People struggle with where they belong and their relationships reflect that. Loving someone doesn't mean they don't also drive you crazy and you might fight with them constantly. But that doesn't negate the love or that feeling that even if things aren't okay, they're better with that person around. But maybe that person can't stay around. The world may be against you. And also maybe you don't just want that one person in your life. Soulmates is a very flawed model. Sometimes the strongest love is a struggle with yourself and the world and your person. You have to overcome yourself first. Happily ever after is a lie. You may be happy for a while, and hopefully for a long while, but everything ends. And you have to be ready to love again. Also your platonic bonds are just as important and life-altering as your romantic ones. Sometimes those platonic bonds include fucking if you want them to. Real life isn't a bunch of platitudes and world-altering moments, it's daily work to better yourself and the world around you. Especially when things just fucking suck. But also remember to have fun and fuck the haters. People who don't support you can eat rocks and you should yell at them more to shut the fuck up."

That is a fundamentally different outlook on what a "good relationship depiction" looks like. Personally, I thought I hated romance movies and then I started watching queer romance movies and discovered I love them and watch them all the time. Because it turns out what I hated was relationships being shown that had nothing at all to do with reality and privileged incredibly toxic ideals. Finally there was complexity, there were stakes, and there were people who had to truly want to be together enough to fight the world for it and not because they happened to be there. There were people actually talking out their problems and looking for resolutions. (And sometimes that resolutions was "I can't fucking deal with this bullshit anymore and I'm out.") For the first time it felt real.

I'm an aroace trans gay man. Nothing about relationships or being in relationships has come easy to me, and the whole paradigm of straight patriarchal romance depictions makes absolutely no sense to me. It's completely alien. Queer romance stories actually feel human.

And that's the tradition Good Omens is coming from, even as it's being retold in 2019-2023 and hopefully beyond. Gaiman's work has always been based in that queer media paradigm. (I've been remiss and daunted and haven't read Pratchett but from what I do know his work also seems to sit more in that world view.) It's a beautiful cinematic tradition and it's baffling to me that people would resist it instead of embracing it for being honest.

And that's when I turn into a crotchety old man complaining about the youth not connecting with the history of their beautiful culture and instead begging for assimilation into a shithole allocishet media landscape that doesn't actually want them except for their money and has nothing at all interesting or valuable to say. But it's very funny (annoying) to me when people claim Good Omens is someone against queer culture when it's so thoroughly bathed in the best of queer media's storytelling traditions and what people are asking for is straight media with the serial numbers filed off. Like, stop being boring please and know literally anything about the culture the adults in the room lived through and were influenced by. The world didn't begin in 2015.

EDIT: I also want to add that in straight media arcs are linear. Traditionally in queer media arcs are cyclical. Queer media very often depicts people going around in circles relearning the same lesson over and over as they inch towards it sinking in. But every time they go through the cycle they gain just a little bit more enlightenment and slowly move towards a better place. From the comments this is an immensely important distinction. People don't actually have cathartic moments where suddenly all their past bad programming is shed and they saunter forward a new person with none of their old baggage. In reality people fall into the same patterns over and over even though they have had every opportunity to learn better. "People magically get better" is a trope of straight media that's an outright and frankly dangerous lie. Again, Good Omens follows the queer tradition not the straight one and it's depicted 6,000 years of that cycle. The world didn't end, and the wheel keeps turning, as it always has and always will. That's so fundamental to queer storytelling traditions I forgot to even mention it.

#good omens #good omens season 2 #good omens spoilers #go s2 spoilers #good omens discourse #queer media #queer history #discourse #I have been a crotchety old man against the youths since middle school to be clear #if you don't know where you've been you have no hope of knowing where you should go next #I didn't sit all the way through deeply homophobic Brokeback Mountain or Tár just to hear people complain that honest rep is bad rep #This is also why I'm a critchety old man about most Critical Role Shadowgast haters #Liam and Matt have not only watched but copiously reference older queer media and Shadowgast is so clearly that tradition

[i-isa-i]

I think it’s so interesting how much authority is awarded “the author” in different fandoms. You always here people scream “Death of the Author” but still hold up authorship as an authoritative concept.

Like, when Buffy had bad storylines the consensus was something like ‘trust Joss Whedon” who btw turned out to be a horrible person.

Similarly, Kripke was kind of deified by the fandom (and also kind of by the show) during early seasons spn.

Even disclaimers on fanfics show this dynamic. Why did we write stuff like ‘these characters belong to JKR’?!? Like no shit, I didn’t create Sirius Black but the character still doesn’t belong to that woman?

It’s so interesting to look at the stark difference between gomens and spn fan discourse at the moment. I’m not saying one way is the right way, just that the dynamics are interesting.

Neil says something and most people respect it, some even see it as their duty to act as his apostle and spread his word. People are in his asks to try and get his opinion on certain fan theory bc they consider him the ultimate authority over canon.

And then you have spn fans, especially destiel fans. Not only do they not care what kripke/ dabb or most of the show runners say, they actively oppose the “authors”’ perceived interpretations of the characters and routinely make fun of them. Dabb says he wrote a finale that is only meant to satisfy 30% of the fans and the rest of the fandom decides to strike it from canon and collectively produce enough fix-it fic to fill a library.

Can you imagine what would have happened if Dabb or Kripke or whoever had asked the fandom to keep a spoiler or leak like the gomens one a secret?!? It would have become a meme in 5 seconds and it would have trended above a historic election.

#Fandom meta #fandom culture #spn #gomens #death of the author #supernatural #destiel #fanfic and authorship #neil gaiman #andrew dabb #eric kripke #buffy #i do not support jkr #gomens s2 #gomens leak #good omens #good omens discourse

[orionsangel86]

Seeing criticism of Good Omens Season 2 on here is a wild ride for me because I generally seem to agree with everything gomens critical people are saying whilst at the same time still absolutely loving gomens S2.

It's like this: Okay so you have written this super popular book revolving around this precocious kid who happens to be the antichrist whose birth kickstarts the apocalypse. The four horseman turn up as well as these other strange human characters one of which is an actual witch whose great great great grandmother wrote an accurate prophecy book which predicts armaggedon. Through a series of somewhat hilarious events, the kid, his friends, and the other weird humans manage to stop the apocalypse.

Also throughout the whole thing there are these angel and demon characters fussing about getting into arguments but not actually doing anything to forward the plot or make any difference to the main storyline. For some reason everyone reading the book finds these characters far more compelling and entertaining and seems to think they are the main characters. But they are not.

Then the book gets adapted into a show and the focus shifts onto the angel and demon characters because obviously they are the popular ones that everyone loves. So what's a writer to do when the fan favourite characters basically don't have any part in the primary plot points? Give them a more coherent side plot steeped in romantic tropes and claim that they are in love. Boom. Instant fandom catnip.

But then you are presented with a problem. The show has become super successful and everyone wants more story. You may have discussed a sequel over the years with your writing partner but it never really came to anything probably because its difficult to plot out a sequel centred around two characters who weren't the protagonist of the first book, and that story is done and dusted. Whats a writer to do?

Lean into the fans thirst for more angel on demon action and write what amounts to high budget fanfiction pulling the love story b plot of season 1 into the main focus for season 2. Of course book purists are gonna hate that!

Any legitimate sequel to Good Omens should have centered around Adam. The former antichrist now coping with everything he went through growing up a normal human whilst still having a creeping sense that its not quite over, that maybe heaven and hell still have a part for you to play in their grand plan. Sure, Crowley and Aziraphale could have been involved, continuing their b plot love story, but at least this way the sequel would have been more consistent with the plot of season 1.

The problem with continuing Adam's story is that, and I mean no disrespect here, no one cares about Adam. Adam and his friends are the weakest elements of season 1. People tune into Good Omens for the Crowley and Aziraphale show, and Neil Gaiman knows this.

The plot of Gomens S2 is weak. The mystery around Gabriel is a bit silly, and is only connected to the season 1 plot in the loosest sense. The fact that he and Beelzebub speedrun an angel/demon romance is bizarre and does come out of left field... like something out of fanfiction. It also does indeed rob some of what made Crowley/Aziraphale so special - the fact that they were unique in their love and respect for each other despite being on opposite sides. Also I wish Maggie and Nina were given more development (and less clunky dialogue).

The only criticism I really don't agree with is the criticism that Aziraphale was written out of character, because quite simply, season 1 never ever resolved the fundamental issue at the center of Crowley and Aziraphales relationship. Throughout season 1 Aziraphale constantly insults and berates Crowley, claiming he's the "bad one" and refusing to accept that they aren't on opposite sides. There have been plenty of metas stating that this was all out of fear and a need to protect Crowley, and sure, you can interpret it that way, but not once in season 1 does Aziraphale actually say "yes we are on our side. Yes we are the same. I was wrong to claim you were bad when you've clearly been showing me how good you are for millennia." Its maybe implied that he has learned, but its never truly confirmed, because season 1 wasn't about Crowley and Aziraphale and their relationship. But season 2 takes its lead from that.

It's just rather amusing to me how the discourse that has built around season 2 seems to be fundamentally forgetting these points. GOS2 isn't really a sequel to Good Omens. It's a spin off. It's a spin off about Crowley and Aziraphale and their silly relationship drama whilst they deal with a silly low stakes mystery regarding Heaven and Hell (also characters that were barely involved in the book if at all!). It doesn't really tie into the first story at all.

In my opinion, all it needed to link it more closely to season 1, was to bring back Frances McDormand as God to do the narration. If that had happened, season 2 would have been just fine. As it stands, it comes across rather like a spin off fanfiction. But I love fanfiction, and I have always only ever watched Good Omens for Aziraphale and Crowley. To me, season 2 is fantastic, its like if Supernatural had a spin off show all about Castiel in which he is the lead character, and part of the main A plot is him getting together with Dean finally - Dean being the love interest in this particular show. Amazing. 10/10 would watch another 15 seasons of just that - but general Supernatural fans who aren't fandom specific would probably HATE IT.

So yeah, I do understand the criticism its receiving, but I find it funny, because ultimately Neil Gaiman gave fans exactly what they wanted, he gave them an Ineffable Husbands fanfiction - M/M Romance, F/F OC Side Pairing, Rated: Teen and Up, #Fluff, #Dancing, #Excessive Jane Austen References, #Crack Treated Seriously, #Surprise Final Pairing (check the end notes for spoilers!), #Miscommunication, #Love Confessions, #First Kiss, #Angst #Hurt/No Comfort, #Cliffhanger Ending.

Can any of us really say we wouldn't immediately click "proceed" on this fic and then stay up til 3am reading it til our eyes bled? Me neither.

#good omens #good omens season 2 #good omens season 2 spoilers #ineffable husbands #aziraphale #crowley #aziracrow #good omens discourse #honest gos2 review

[ankles-be-bitten]

i may have fallen victim to the curse of the Bad Aziraphale Take with this post, so i'd like to right my wrongs:

i still agree with this, however i would like to add some insight: the metatron is definitely orchestrating their falling out. he knows exactly what he's doing & he knows that he can't control aziraphale as long as he has crowley on their side--that's emotional abuse 101. the victim is isolated from their real support systems, and the only place they have left to turn is their abuser. i believe that aziraphale knows what he's doing, and that he's just going along with heaven as far as he can in order to protect his demon, but from the metatron's perspective things have to look like they're going according to plan.

i think... maybe this is only half true? not sure what i was thinking when i wrote this; it was late. whatever.

crowley is an optimist, but he clearly had his doubts about how aziraphale would respond, which is indeed based in reality. aziraphale doesn't have a great track record as far as assuming the best of him in the moment (which, i must add, isn't his fault. it is one of his flaws, however). i think the important thing is that he trusts aziraphale to do the right thing in the end.

i still agree with this. however, i want to acknowledge that i felt this was unfair at the time, but in retrospect i was ignoring aziraphale's dependency on external validation that crowley does not have. crowley is far more independent than aziraphale, and i acknowledged this, but i framed it originally as "crowley has an unfulfilled need," rather than what i now think it really is, which is that AZI has an unfulfilled need.

yeah, there it is. different people, different needs.

as far as it being strange that aziraphale didn't pick up on what crowley needed in that moment right away, i do still feel that way--sort of. i honestly at this point just want to pin it down to him being excited.

whatever you have to say can wait--we have all of eternity to say whatever we want, in complete security. we won't have to hide. we can be together. and he wants so badly to be together. that's literally all he wants. he wasn't even a little interested in returning to heaven until the metatron told him that crowley could tag along. this is manipulation 101, people! the metatron knows, or at least can intuit, that crowley wouldn't want to become an angel again. he knows exactly what he's doing to them. this is not a good faith offer.

most of the rest of that post is me rambling about my interpretation of aziraphale's actions and the reasoning behind them. feel free to read the full take if you'd like, but i don't believe it's necessary to break down the whole thing. it mostly boils down to aziraphale needs to see people as people before he can respond properly to their needs. i may or may not still agree with that, i'm on the fence, but if that is the case, it's 100% because heaven has conditioned him to be that way. you need to earn salvation, you need to earn love, you need to earn humanity.

i originally used job as a counter example, but he may actually be a paragon of this interpretation. if anyone deserves salvation, it was job--righteous job, level-headed job, job who lost everything but never, ever lost faith in the Almighty. if anyone has earned aziraphale's sympathy, it's him.

this is just a wonky take. he does care, or else he wouldn't be making the offer. interrupting crowley might have been selfish in the short-term, but to aziraphale, the long-term result is eternity together unhindered. they will have all the time in the world to be an us if they can only get out from under the watchful, dangerous, probing eye of heaven.

i think i was getting close to the point here, but i was still framing it from the perspective that aziraphale had woefully wronged crowley, and that he's not also a victim of the system here. i was in far less certain terms falling into the "aziraphale is naive" trap, when in reality he just wanted to be safe. as archangel, he can do as he pleases without fear of retribution. he has never, ever felt safe before--not safe to ask questions, not safe to be seen with crowley, not safe to run off to alpha centauri with him. blaming him for prioritizing crowley's safety is more than a little silly.

this is just... the ick. it feels like a whole other person wrote this. i am trying so hard to give myself grace for this absolutely rot-gut take.

yikes. yikes yikes yikes. i'm not sure anymore if crowley has ever expressed a pointed distaste for being an angel again; that may just be misguided on my part. somehow i'm victim-blaming both of them here, while also completely misrepresenting aziraphale's intentions. i'm falling into the "he doesn't love crowley enough/the way he deserves" trap, painting him once again as naive, blind, and selfish. oopsie daisy.

i still believe the kiss was an offer akin to the ox rib, extremely alcoholic breakfasts, what have you. it's possible crowley doesn't feel seen--i might even go so far as to say that that's likely--but not in the way i stated originally. he's heartbroken. he's devastated. he might even feel betrayed. but just because he feels that way doesn't make it the truth, and i think a mistake i've made throughout this particular text is mistaking how aziraphale's actions look from the outside for his actual intentions.

i think this was mostly right up until the part about azi being selfish. he's far from selfish, he's not even close to naive. assuming he made a mistake in the f15 at all, he absolutely knows it now. he will do anything it takes to be with crowley.

at the time of this addendum i think he's made a Plan™ and is trying to convince himself he's made the right choice. all will make sense in the end. or maybe it won't. we'll figure it out--some things take time, and we don't have all the information.

i do believe that about covers it. in summary, they are both victims and treating either of them like they're naive or stupid for making the choices they did is unfair because they're both doing the best they can with the information they have available to them. it's heartbreaking, gut-wrenching, and really, really unfortunate. but it's neither of their fault. it's literally all the metatron. if heaven and hell were out of the picture, crowley would've been free to confess and aziraphale free to reciprocate--but that's just not their reality. everything aziraphale does is in order to keep crowley safe, in the interest of us long-term. crowley knows he has a hard time expressing himself, and so he wants to get it out fast, and that's valid; aziraphale having reservations due to safety concerns is just as valid.

it's neither of their fault.

#ineffables #ineffable husbands #ineffable spouses #ineffable wives #ineffable divorce #the final fifteen #f15 #good omens #gomens #good omens meta #good omens analysis #good omens speculation #good omens spoilers #good omens brainrot #crowley #aziraphale #aziracrow #good omens discourse #bad aziraphale takes #aziraphale defense squad

[never-forget-viva-la-pluto]

To the SPN fans that are hating on good omens rn bc of the leak, I hope you choke. I've seen some really nasty shit today from some of my (now unfollowed) followers whom I followed for spn content. So let's make one thing clear from actual posts ive seen today:

-Saying that the "wrong angels kissed", is...homophobic. I was with destiel from beginning to end and yeah we were completely shafted, but it's not okay to then say that other gay couples in media aren't allowed to kiss just because they aren't the ones you thought were hot. Jesus christ didn't think I needed to write that one down for ya-bo burnham

-I saw so much fatphobia about how Castiel deserved a kiss more than Aziraphel bc "he has far more sex appeal." Wtf wtf wtf. How do you live with yourselves saying that shit?You can pry Micheal Sheens body type Aziraphel out of my cold dead hands, you CW brainwashed morons!

-hate against the author for some reason, no one is willing to give specifics about it, but I think the majority of them maintain that GO is not good rep because they didn't kiss and now they are claiming pandering or something? Honestly that guy has only ever stood with the writers guild and queer people his whole career from what I find so I don't think it's fair whatever hate they are spouting. He isnt even saying he is upset with fans that saw or shared the video. Hes being super nice about it!

-I will say, non of us SPN fans have a fucking leg to stand on when it comes to hating something bc of the authors, OK. I saw someone saying the writing for spn was better and I can say you did not watch the show. I loved spn but don't do the late Terry Pratchett like this. He did nothing wrong

-on that same ish strain, as an ace person who thrives off queerplatonic relationships in media, maybe they kiss, I dunno. I just have to wait until the season comes out. Not 1 SPN fan gets to bitch about GO asexualty rep when SPN never even tried that route with any of its characters. But also ace characters are allowed to kiss, so you can write them that way of you want and interpret them that way if you want still. This is your viewing experience.

-this leak is truly not the same as the SPN yo a ti leak, solely bc the episode hasn't aired yet. "None of you GO fans would have survived the yo a ti leak." No I think you wouldn't bc the spn leak was clinging to an already mangled straw, while the angel's in GO are queer already. Queer queer queer and no amount of kissing or lack thereof is going to change that. We have no idea what happens in that episode of GO, but we saw the creators butcher the only moment in the show that could have meant anything real for queer viewers in SPN.

-"SPN crowly was kissing dudes first so this one is not that impressive". I see two cakes. One was made with the intent to make gay people look evil, but over time got kinda funny and a little better bc gay people liked it, and the other was about telling an interesting story about how love is so important, especially at the end of the world, and gay people liked that one too! So for me it's YaY two cakes!

-again the anti aziraphel is so plainly just fatphobia. You have no excuses. Sorry you don't think someone who looks like a slightly chubby micheal sheen could ever get kissed by someone who looks like David tennant, but you are not only wrong, you are also childish.

OK I'm done. Go watch good omens s2 when it comes out for my fucking sanity please. Or don't if all you are going to do is try to rip it apart like you do to all media that tries to be better.

#good omens #good omens discourse #fatphobia #supernatural #destiel #crowly x aziraphale #they are ace to me your honor #im ace and i sometimes want a smooch #good omens 2 #good omens s2 spoilers

[goodluckdetective]

An update post season 2 release: I’VE BEEN WRONG BEFORE. I’d delete this post but:

1. I was wrong and I should admit it.

2. This post actually explains what queerbaiting is pretty well: it’s this kind of marketing except unlike Good Omens, there is 0 payoff. Cus shows marketed like this before with 0 payoff which is why I was so worried.

Anyway, glad to be terribly wrong on main. I accept my position as clown.

A Good Omens hot take on “queerbaiting” below. No spoilers, but lord knows people have talked this to death, so I’m sorry in advance:

As a queer person, I didn’t think the first season was queerbaiting. I know some folks did and that’s fine, I’m not here to change your mind and I respect your opinion. But to me, while it was somewhat ambiguous, it was very obvious the two loved each other, that it was a love story and regardless if it was platonic, romantic or “whatever these two got going on”, the text was clear that all of those perspectives were valid. Especially since it was a close adaptation of the book. Never did I get the feeling that the show was mocking me for thinking it could be romantic, or just playing around: it felt like the show respected that read.

Now, as season 2 comes up, I think the show has set itself up to fall into queerbait if they keep things ambiguous. This mostly has to do with regards the marketing. The marketing has been pretty damn romantic in a way season 1 wasn’t: Amazon Prime clips on youtube label the pair as a couple. Like this ain’t subtle:

The playlists being full of love songs (Take Me to Church? Really?). The Twitter ship teasing quite a bit. Outside of marketing, Neil describing the season as romantic. Having a romantic couple (Maggie and Nina) mirror the main pair (the lesbians are not queerbait of course, it’s the mirroring that can be an issue: Supernatural pulled this multiple times). This is pretty classic queerbaiting should this be left ambiguous. It is one thing to have a relationship be open to interpretation but have the narrative respect each interpretation equally. It’s another to imply a specifically romantic relationship and then never actually follow through.

“But Iz-“ You say. “They’re supernatural beings, they aren’t interested in sex-“ I never said there had to be sex. Hell, there doesn’t even have to be kissing. Holding hands or a love confession I think would be entirely acceptable for me (not for everyone, this is just me personally). I think you can have them be supernatural beings and still denote a relationship as queer without a huge make out scene. My concern here is that we get something so ambiguous that the build up feels deeply dishonest. Where you constantly hype up something as a romance and then when the curtain is about to fall, go “but it’s all up to the viewer, why would you guys think it HAS to be a romance, you can if you want but that’s just your read!” Like yes, it is just my read, but you’re the one who has been advertising this as a romance for months, not as a “odd couple who can be romantic if you want!” There’s a difference there to me. The second feels like making fun, and in a way that’s kind of mean.

I am of course, one lesbian, so don’t take my word as gay gospel. Just my thoughts.

(And don’t @ Neil or anything. The show isn’t out yet and even if it was and my concerns prove valid, I don’t need to staple my critique to his internet door)

#iz rambles #queerbaiting #good omens speculation #good omens #good omens discourse #good omens season 2 #also yes I’ve seen the leak but w/o context that doesn’t really help my concerns

[takeme-totheworld]

I just discovered the option to prevent reblogs on my posts.

Time to go mad with power. The awning of a new age of serious Good Omens posts has arrived.

#good omens #good omens fandom #good omens discourse #digital boundaries

[impishtubist]

GIVE ME THE GO2 DISCOURSE—What’s your favorite (or favorites, if there are multiple) fun theory coming out of this season?

I actually wasn't even aware that there was GO discourse at all until, like, yesterday. 😂

I don't know if I have any ~fun theories, but I certainly do have opinions!

All the book fans (and I am a book fan originally, lemme be clear) who are dragging the show and saying that Aziraphale and Crowley were OOC the entire time and who are claiming that their pre-show fics are better........well, it certainly IS a take! A wrong one, but a take nonetheless. Sorry, but Neil absolutely did his own characters justice. You're just mad they don't fit your personal fanon.

Aziraphale and Crowley were both wrong and both right! I'm a Crowley apologist through and through, but I also get where Aziraphale was coming from! I completely understand why he did what he did! It was completely consistent with his character, and so was Crowley's reaction.

I actually don't believe in any of the fun theories. Coffee theory, swap theory, etc. I think people are coming up with those theories to make themselves feel better, but I am not one of those people. I am reveling in the pain, which again, I feel is completely consistent with what we know of the characters. Everyone's actions made sense!

And just for funsies..............Crowley is 100% a top and I don't understand the prevalence of top Aziraphale in this fandom OKAY BYE

#imp speaks #chaos night #good omens #good omens discourse #i guess???? #i had to throw in number 4 for shits and giggles #because i know it's going to make someone mad somewhere

[phantomram-b00]

I wonder, out of all the good omens character (that I can fit)

#I just wanted to see this is just for shits and giggles #I’m sure someone did this already but why not I wanna know #good omens #good omens polls #fandom polls #good omens fandom #the brainrot is real #good omens brainrot #good omens discourse #good omen questions

[thestrangestperson]

Let's talk about Aziraphale dancing two big topics, shall we?

Aziraphale refuses to accept poverty could be bad. Why would God etc permit it if it could ever be bad? What!? Noooo... Poverty is good! To climb the ladder to success (in the traditional sense), you get far more opportunities to do good and be good and yadda yadda.

So Crowley says "Nuh uh" and shows him how poverty is not, in fact, the extreme pleasantry it is made out to be. Aziraphale felt "Well it's uncomfortable, but it can lead to good!" and Crowley said "No you moron, these people are born poor and have to 'do bad' or they will die even poorer, fuck the system"

If you asked Aziraphale the old "Is stealing bad" question, he'd be confused.

"Well yes of course."

"But what if it's to feed a starving family? Or a child? Or someone who has been deprived?"

"..."

Aziraphale does not want to accept death. Crowley makes Aziraphale face the masses of human casualties that would come about from Armageddon regardless of who wins. During "The Resurrectionists", Crowley forces him to face death again. He is handed the tumour belonging to a seven year old boy, as a way to make him understand the importance for cadavers and the fact that not everything is good or bad.

Crowley uses Aziraphale's empathy for humans and avoidance of death to help him convey points. It's like a beloved pet. You don't want your dog to die, but they will. Aziraphale doesn't want that dog to die, and wants to pretend it never ever will.

After the pre-zombification Nazis got squished, he didn't seem distraught - just uncomfortable. He minds when innocent humans that he cares about die, he cares about the children and the people he deems good. It bothers him greatly that they do die eventually. He is prevented from saving Wee Morag because well, death is inevitable. Crowley wants him to get that. Aziraphale wants to try to save everyone - when he can't.

He doesn't want to think that God would EVER let anything bad happen to people. He doesn't see how any system designed like that could be flawed or bad or uncomfortable for people. Genuinely he believes every corporate lie, and Crowley spends his time picking them apart and explaining them to him in various ways. Deprogramming.

Poverty is not a wonderfully good part of the ineffable plan, death does happen and it happens to everyone and we don't get to pick who or when, humans do have uncomfortable moments. They get sick. They become homeless. They starve. They cry. They ache. Aziraphale does not believe that the plan would allow these terrible things. But it does. It encourages them. The system works. Crowley knows it works, and he's trying to show Aziraphale that.

#im sorru if this makws no sense im so eepy #good omens #gomens #good omens season 2 #good omens spoilers #good omens speculation #crowley #aziraphale #good omens season two #good omens discourse

[emptymasks]

i guess it’s that time of year again where everyone says good omens is queer baiting because crowley and aziraphale haven't expressed physical affection and desire and so it’s that time of year again where i mention how much this representation means to asexual and aromantic / aspec people and saying that having two characters (i refrain from saying men as crowley is confirmed genderfluid by the way, which people tend to ignore, i don’t know how you can call a show with genderfluid and non-binary characters ‘nothing but queerbaiting’) have to kiss or have sex to be queer is actually pretty hurtful to people in your own community. crowley and aziraphale not kissing doesn’t make them less queer, also he hasn’t confirmed that there won’t be a romance and keeps saying ‘wait and see’ because 1. he doesn’t want to spoil the show 2. he  likely cannot spoil the show legally without getting into trouble

every time i think the fandom is past this, you’re not. and i understand, i understand what it would mean to have a show like this have two leads played by actors of the same gender kiss. but a lot of the fandom who throw around the queerbaiting term (which means something was set up and not followed through on which isn’t true by the way, there’s plenty of room to interpret aziraphale and crowley as platonically in love) always seem to ignore the aspec people who talk about how much this representation means to them and there’s even less aspec representation out there and queer-platonic-partner representation in mainstream media than there is gay romances. and unless some kind of deal with amazon prime is stopping him, if anyone watched gaiman’s other show this year, the sandman, i think it’s safe to say he doesn’t care about cramming as many gay, lesbian, bi and non-binary characters as he wants into his shows. perhaps if he’s not putting a romantic/sexual relationship with aziraphale and crowley it’s because he doesn’t feel it’s right for those characters to express their love that way, they are his characters after all, and maybe they are in love romantically, but they’ll never have sex, or never want to kiss, but they’ll say their i love yous in season two.

it’s a little silly to accuse a show of queerbaiting when the show isn’t out yet, we don’t know what will happen, and containing accusations of queerbaiting and homophobia towards neil gaiman because of good omens despite the release of the sandman tv show and the representation in that show. i understand the want for more on screen queer kisses, but i don’t think it’s accurate to accuse the show of queerbaiting. maybe use that term for shows that have actually done that and had harmful representation, homophobic representation, transphobic representation, shows that have actually caused actual hurt to real lgbt+ people, not just shows that have made you really want two characters to kiss and then disappointed you even though the characters have still been confirmed to be in love, just that love works differently for them than it does for us, and that at least one of the characters in canonically not-cis and the other might be as well. the first show with genderfluid representation that yes could have been more explicit but god it could have been actively transphobic like a different fandom show, the first main fandom show i’ve seen to have characters with they/them pronouns, with neopronouns, just.... i get that good omens means a lot to people, it gave us a lot of hope, but this isn’t he show to go cancel culture on because it hasn’t let the two characters having the slowest long burn of history be ready to kiss yet, or even have to kiss to prove they’re in love

this is just my opinion as a gay trans aspec person who definitely relates to aziraphale taking thousands of years to realise he’s in love and decades later still not be ready to kiss the person he’s in love with. i love my partner, we’ve been together close to a year, and i’m still not ready and comfortable to engage in kisses nor sex yet, and some aspec people will never be ready for that or never want that at all, so yes aziraphale and crowley can be in love and not be ready to smooch yet and it doesn’t make them any less in love. it will say i would like the i love yous to be said i the show and not just on twitter, but then again maybe they’re not ready to say it out loud yet.

queerbaiting would be if he said ‘yes omg they’re gonna be so gaaayy’ and then the show comes up and they aren’t gay at all. kinda like idk some big superhero franchise keeps doing. that’s actually queerbaiting. but if doesn’t say they’ll be any romance between them and then there isn’t... that isn’t queerbaiting. subtext and setting love up between them in season one, doesn't mean it has to be romantic or sexual love and i know so many hurt lgbt+ people got their hopes up that this ship would kiss on screen but.. them not kissing.. doesn’t make it queerbaiting, because we weren’t promised that, it just seemed more likely than in other shows given that we know gaiman is alright with putting queer characters in his media... and given we know that idk how anyone can call him a homophobe of transphobe

but who knows. i don’t. and you don’t. because the show literally isn’t out yet. so perhaps given that it isn’t out yet, we can’t and shouldn’t accuse it of anything until it’s actually out otherwise we run the risk of looking very silly

#well.. thems my thoughts #and i think im about to get shoot for them but its just my thoguhts #good omens discourse #queerbaiting #i think maybe that term is thrown around too easily these days #idk its probably used with GO because its made so many hurt lgbt people hopeful #but every time i see these takes its like seeing asexual people get trampeled over #aspec #asexual #demisexual #demiromantic #aromantic #my rambles #mytext #neil gaiman

[babbeldumpsterfire]

I’m sorry but I’m reading of people calling s2 of good omens queerbait?!?! Did we see the same season??? Where’s the queer baiting??? I swear to god if ya’ll don’t zip it I’ll hunt ya’ll down and zip your trap for you! /jk but marginally

#Maybe queer beating as in suffering but that’s besides the point #sorry bad joke #gos2 #good omens #good omens 2 #good omens discourse #queerbaiting #W #T #F

[orionsangel86]

I would like to hear your GOmens opinions! I feel like the fandom is a mix of reasonable and bathshit dumb opinions.

Oh nonny I don't know if you truly do! My opinions are controversial at minimum and likely to get me cancelled by GO fandom at most!

*deep breath* Okay you asked for it. Don't come at me when you don't like what I have said.

I'll put this under a cut cos it'll no doubt get long and ranty and look fair warning to anyone clicking read more, these are JUST one person's opinions. We can disagree on those things. I'm not going around screaming at people that they are wrong and I've kept this all very close to my chest for a very long time now. So please take that with a pinch of salt before you decide to read my rant.

*sigh* this is probably a bad idea but here goes...

The thing is, I love analysing TV and film and literature, and I take an analytical view of things where I try to set myself apart as much as possible from the highly emotional volatile fandom response. (I dont always succeed in this but I try).

One thing I always stress is that characters in TV shows or movies are *not real people* and therefore you can't apply real people sensitivities to them. They are instead frankenstein mixes of what the creative team wants them to be, and every little decision about the characters is carefully thought out. Intention and interpretation matters. My view on a character is not an invalidation of a real persons identity. If I say a character is not X, that does not mean I think that real people who are X are not valid, or that I don't believe in their real life identity. Is this all clear so far? Okay.

Representation also matters and I have seen Good Omens fandom tie themselves up in a frenzie of policing fans and call out posts accusing anyone who wants more from AziraCrows relationship a whole multitude of x-phobics depending on the buzzword of the day. To the point that these fans have convinced themselves that a kiss or love declaration or ANYTHING from AziraCrow that would be considered more explicit than what we got in Season 1 is something they DON'T want because somehow that would take away from the *x-identity rep* theyve decided to claim as canon. But sadly these fans have rather deluded themselves because none of those identities are *canon* in season 1. Even the claims that AziraCrow are gender non conforming non binary etc are not *canon* because *canon* means that any dumbass regular audience member could watch the thing and say "oh. That character is x". Yes Crowley is Nanny Asteroth for a time, but a general audience is just going to view that as male Crowley in drag. Sorry but its the truth. They see David Tennant playing Crowley, they see a male actor playing Crowley, they are gonna view Crowley as a male. Unless it is textually stated by Crowley that he isn't male, then they aren't gonna get it and it isn't the rep you want it to be, because representation should mean that everyone ELSE also notices and learns to understand about those marginalised identities.

Take Sandman. Very gay. Very very gay. So gay that people from the dumbass general audience (the DGA going forward) went online to complain about it being gay because the gay was so very obvious to them, so obvious in fact they claimed *every* character in Sandman was gay and having gay sex and I'll be honest it left me rather disappointed when Morpheus didnt fuck Hob Gadlings brains out in episode 6 like he clearly wanted to, but I digress.

Take OFMD, Jim is a canonical non binary character and the show makes this clear in the canon text without ever having Jim say they are "non binary" or have the clumsy awkward explanation that is clearly for the DGA about it, but instead the conversation flows naturally - are you a woman? I don't know. Are you a man? I don't know. I'm just Jim. Okay Just Jim. We will refer to you by they/them pronouns now. It's all cool.

But Crowley and Aziraphale are characters played by male actors who always use he/him pronouns. Even as Nanny Asteroth no one ever refers to the nanny as "she". So its not clear to the DGA. Them being asexual may be a valid headcanon, but its not canon if its never mentioned. If at some point someone said something to Zira about sex and he said "oh I don't go in for that sort of thing" then sure, that's got some canon merit to it, but otherwise Good Omens can NOT be applauded for being good asexual representation on television.

If your general audience of braindead heteronormative idiots isnt seeing it, its not technically canon. Its implied, subtextual, queer coded, hinted at, etc, but not *canon*. Its not gonna get a GLAAD nomination for representation and a bunch of queer journalists writing articles about it if its only *subtext*.

I don't recall any of the queer media people applauding Good Omens for being queer representation. I recall them all sort of scratching their heads being like "is it...?" and I recall a lot of people getting rather annoyed because NG took a stance online proclaiming that it was an obvious love story when really, from just watching the show... it kind of wasn't?

God this is gonna get me so much hate... *sigh* okay look. I adore season 1. I was totally with you guys celebrating how queer it all seemed to me and loving NGs responses on Twitter to anyone questioning the "friendship" between Az+Crow. I was also online getting wrapped up in the fandom echo chamber claiming it was 100% canon and anyone who didn't see it was a homophobic moron or whatever... yeah... but I've grown up a lot since 2019 surprisingly - the whole Destiel going "canon" and then getting shoved forcefully back into the metaphorical closet was a big eye opener and everything changed after November 5th 2020.

Suddenly, what Az+Crow had in season 1 wasn't enough anymore. It should never have been enough to begin with. I recall my very first watch and how I was seeing all the subtext and coding and clear romantic tropes build and build and then we got to that final scene in the ritz and all I wanted was for them to take each others hands, I watched with eager anticipation and... it didn't happen. I can vividly recall the disappointment I felt at that moment. I didn't need a kiss, or a declaration, but I wanted them to hold hands in that scene. They got so close! Zira leans in and places his hand on the table right by Crowley and my GOD it was like being edged without the pay off. I hated it. I HATED it because it would have been SO EASY but they didn't do it.

I also recall getting quietly annoyed at NG for claiming they held hands on the bus. I watched the slowed down zoomed in gifs of that moment and sorry, but no. They don't. Even if the actors actually DID hold hands, the camera doesn't pick it up clearly enough for it to mean a damn thing.

I totally understand people claiming that Az+Crow are already queer. It's totally valid to see yourself in them and want them to represent you. But the painful truth is that in season 1 of the show, they aren't anything of what you claim them to be. They are two characters who are male presenting who are very good friends to the point that its all a bit homoerotic. The DGA isn't gonna take any time to think about the complexities of angel and demon gender or the lack thereof, they are only gonna see two male actors playing said angel and demon. They aren't gonna think about you and your identity, and they aren't gonna pick up the subtext even if it is painfully obvious. Because they won't see it as gay unless it is explicitly gay.

But Saz, why should we care what the DGA thinks?

Because thats what this whole argument has always been about. Because that's what canon means. No one, not even the DGA are arguing today about whether or not Castiel is gay. No one in the DGA is arguing about Stede and Blackbeard, or Lucius. No one is arguing about the Corinthian or Johanna Constantine. They see that these characters are queer, they accept it. Simple. Because of this, it counts towards representation. Because it normalises our identities. By putting our identities into mainstream stories in such a way that they are unavoidable for the DGA, THAT is what representation is.

When characters and stories keep our identities buried in subtext and allusions and queer coding which quite frankly should have been left in the hays code era, it doesn't count towards representation, no matter what your fandom echo chamber may scream into the void. Or, for that matter, what your creator and fantasy genre author may claim in the void either.

Word of God may help us in a lot of ways, but if they aint putting it into the actual text, then word of god is meaningless in terms of representation as well. Disney claiming Valkyrie was bisexual doesn't mean a damn thing if she never discusses her bisexuality or has any scenes where she shows interest in the same sex. Thankfully that changed in the latest movie, but for a long time it was a problem.

Okay then. So what am I saying? Was NG queerbaiting us with AziraCrow in season 1?

No. Gods I hate that word. Queerbaiting is only occurring when the creators involved maliciously add queer subtext with the explicit intention of gaining popularity among queer audiences specifically with no intention to reward them by actually making those characters queer.

Now, I may not agree with people who claim Crowley and Aziraphale are explicitly queer in season 1, but I also don't think NG ever intended GO to be a queer show. He made GO to be a popular fantasy show as a last wish for his friend Terry Pratchet. He made it extremely faithful to the book in every way (in some ways, to the detriment of the show) and that includes keeping AziraCrows relationship in safe platonic territory. Yes he ramped up the romantic subtext, but I fully believe that this was because he had already decided he was going to further develop the story if season 1 was a hit, but I don't think for a second that he predicted that it would gain such massive traction in queer fandom circles.

No malicious intent to utilise the queer community, no queerbaiting. So lets just stamp down on that accusation once and for all. It's bullshit.

But that changes in season 2. So here is where I have been getting annoyed at GO fandom lately with all this "we don't need it to be explicit! A kiss would invalidate my identity! If they do anything it'll take away from ace rep! etc etc" SHUt UP!

Why do all these fans think kissing is something ace people don't do? Why would an innocent kiss invalidate ace rep? Are you HEARING YOURSELVES?! and okay, even if you are an ace person who does not ever kiss, are you so opposed to words of affirmation too? Are you a hater of love declarations now? Why is THAT such a terrible thing? You are deluding yourselves, and I get why. You are trying to protect yourselves from disappointment because you have spent 4 years screaming at people online and policing people who dare to say that AziraCrow aren't already canonically together and in love and have somehow tied your own identity into these characters to the point that you are frightened that season 2 might disprove your words and somehow invalidate your identity. Gods forbid if they DO kiss now you have lost the precious representation you claimed was so important to you right? But its NOT the case!

If nothing happens in GO S2 then it WOULD be queerbaiting. For the FIRST TIME. Because NG knows now how important AziraCrow's relationship is to the queer fans and he himself has been claiming its a love story for 4 years. If he didn't put his money where his mouth is and make them explicitly canonically queer and together in season 2 then I'm sorry but it would very much be queerbaiting. Keeping the loud queer fanbase on tenterhooks, getting them all excited so that GO trends on social media and then NOT following through? That's CLASSIC QUEERBAITING.

But NG isn't doing that. Because they are going to be together. Because it will be explicitly queer. Because even the trailer indicates this is the case. The season 1 GO trailer didn't include any of the romantic subtext if I recall correctly, it was solely promoted as a silly fantasy show. The season 2 trailer leans into the romance. It'll be explicitly clear - because I don't think NG is stupid enough to not go through with it. I understand why he didn't in season 1, there was a lot more at stake and he wanted to keep it totally 100% faithful to the book, but season 2 is a blank page, open book, nothing stopping it from happening. Plus, in 2023, in a post Destiel confession, post OFMD world, not going there would be just the most idiotic bad for business move the man could make.

So can GO fans please stop making bad faith arguments about why AziraCrow shouldn't be more explicitly together in season 2? Because I'll be honest, it is coming across less like you wanna protect the supposed "Ace representation" and more like maybe you are just uncomfortable with the idea of two middle aged male actors being physically intimate on screen.

Also if NG doesn't have the balls to go through with it, then can y'all please stop protecting him? I love the guy. I do. I think he is a talented genius who has done more for the fantasy genre than anyone else alive today. But gods, if he doesn't let AziraCrow at least confirm to themselves or other people that they have non platonic feelings for each other, in such a way that the DGA understands that this is a non platonic love story, then he deserves all the angry asks and queerbaiting accusations he will inevitably get. Personally, I don't think he's that dumb. So perhaps his fans can also have a bit more faith in him too.

**to anyone who may want to address the spoiler in this post, please don't. I am aware of it and have chosen in this ask to not acknowledge it so that all fans can read this, besides, the spoiler itself does not actually change anything I have mentioned here especially with some of the daft theories I have seen surrounding it.**

Okay I'm done. Rant over. Proceed to cancel me if you must.

#fandom discourse #good omens #good omens discourse #wank for ts #representation matters #queer media

[downthepub]

forget all the reasonable concerns and wishes ppl have for s3. i want crowley with the good hair damn it

#give ! him! good ! hair! #he's a sexy fuck!!! #let it show #good omens DISCOURSE

[relevant-catnik]

General takeaways -

1: There's lots of ways to be Ace, your interpretation is not the only one. Doubly, triply so, if you aren't even ace to start with and decide to crusade on our behalf. Calm your tits.

2: No single piece of media can ever be a perfect & complete representation for every community. Calm your tits.

3: Authors are human. Be kind. Calm your tits.

4: Calm tits are happy tits.

#good omens #ace #good omens discourse #general tit calming #youtube #queer representation #Youtube

[skyeateyourdonuts]

wait wait wait. some ppl thought azira was ooc for the end s2?? as if it doesnt make complete sense??? and also i actually have issues with most of the theories bc to me it just seems like metatron (a) was in the right position, (b) had the right words, (c) exuded the exact amount of pressure all to get azira to agree like!!! its a manipulation tactic!! he was almost guaranteed to get the angel on board.

to aziraphale tho i think he has a plan. i think theres more things hes contemplating in that elevator than we realize Including that maybe he felt betrayed that crowley didnt trust him?? that crowley wasnt seeing how They could manipulate heaven into both stopping the second coming and changing the system for the better. like just think about it they always make plans to solve things and get each other out of trouble and crowley solved the biggest mystery of s2 so why didnt he trust aziraphale to solve the Next big mystery aka the second coming?? and im not aaying this as me bc they were miscommunicating but i think that was just one of many thoughts azira had in that elevator

"you wont help me ..? :(.... Fine. >:( I can do it myself."

aziraphales priorities by the end of the gabriel conflict are metatron and heaven and where he stands and how theyve been wrong and messed up and how that can change

crowleys priorities are by the end pf the gabriel conflict are talking to aziraphale and sealing the deal that they choose each other.

theyre just on different pages and tho crowley is fully done with heaven and hell and doesnt even want to bother with them anymore, aziraphale does. and not in the "i trust u" way bc i think he doesnt Trust anyone from heaven but he is Fucking Scared!!! of everyone up there and the Ineffable Plan™ and i gotta be honest the solved s1 but it doesnt mean heaven and hell werent gonna try again??

idk im not against either of them and the things they decided to focus on and i just want them to communicate and i have hope that in s3 aziraphale succeeds in stopping the second coming but that he gets some form of help from crowley and thus they have a chance to rlly talk it out and make up <3

* id also like to add that im proud of them for trying to communicate for the first time!! no it didnt go well and yes they resorted to some things that probably hurt one another but that means they have so much room for improvement!!! u make a mistake once, u think it over, and then u know how to solve that situation the right way!! thats just trial and error its how relationships work <3

#good omens #i just!!! #ive had time to think it over and i HATE how ppl have been talking about azira #THATS MY BABY!! #AND SO IS CROWLEY!!! #theyre just not on the same page yet but they will be i have high hopes #theyre my dears and i just wish happiness on them #good omens discourse #aziraphale #crowley #aziracrow #ineffable husbands #love em #cant wait till they smooch ROMANTICALLY! #not... not angrily :(