#kind of????? this isn't really meta just me going WHAT is going on and being too dumb to figure it out skdnfskdfnsd

[nohoperadio]

That cool bee book I was talking about a while ago mostly refrains from philosophical digressions (which I think is a strength, I appreciated how the author had total confidence that just clearly presenting the facts about his subject would be enough to make a fascinating book without the need for any "...and here's why that should blow your mind" editorializing, and he's totally right), but there was one towards the end I've found myself thinking about a lot, which is: he wants people to stop using "self-consciousness" (i.e. the concept exemplified by the mirror test but used implicitly or explicitly in tons of other contexts) as a criterion for which animals can be considered sentient/morally relevant/having significant inner lives/however you want to describe it. Not, as you might expect, because he thinks it's an unreasonably high bar to meet, but because it's such a low bar that it produces no distinctions: he argues that basically any animal with any kind of developed central nervous system has to have some kind of self-consciousness almost by definition.

The example I remember best is: imagine you can see an object in your visual field getting closer to you. No matter the specifics, it's obviously always going to make a huge difference to how you evaluate this situation whether the cause of the object getting closer is a] the object is moving towards you, or b] you are moving towards the object. If a, then something might be pursuing you or falling on you or a thousand other things that are just not even worth considering in the case of b. But visually the two cases are indistinguishable; if you're going to be able to track the difference, your brain has to be putting at least some work into keeping tabs on what your own intentions are and what choices you're making as you move through the world, predicting the expected consequences of those choices, and maintaining a fairly tidy mental separation between stuff in the world that you're making happen and stuff in the world that's just happening of its own volition. Otherwise, every time you walk towards a rock you'll freak out and think the rock is rolling into you, or vice versa.

And it's not hard to see how this applies to your entire sensory world right, it applies to sounds and tactile sensations and even feelings internal to your body to some extent, if you're going to both perceive the world and take actions in the world then it's mandatory to mentally separate yourself and the world before that's going to yield even an ounce of helpful information, you just can't function successfully on the most basic level if you're processing stuff that you're doing on the same level as stuff that's happening, if you're in that state then you simply don't have a usable model of the world at all, you just have chaos.

So you can very easily eliminate a certain seductive narrative about the evolution of consciousness, which starts with very primitive animals who are mentally processing nothing but basic sensory inputs, then as you rise up the chain more complex animals are forming concepts of objects and building up a more nuanced understanding of the world, until finally you approach humans and the mind becomes so subtle and sophisticated that it gains access to this special advanced meta-level of thought where it can even understand itself! No, the self is precisely the one idea that has to be in place from the very beginning, before any of it has even the most rudimentary practical value. Self-consciousness isn't the pinnacle of the mind's evolution, it's one of the lowest, most basic foundations that everything else builds off of.

I think this is really cool stuff! I don't know enough about the relevant academic philosophy of mind debates to say how far all this does or doesn't speak to that, maybe someone will tell me the "self-consciousness" concept being attacked here is a strawman somehow, I don't know. But it's definitely impacted the way I (just a dumb guy who likes creatures) think about our small small cousins and what their lives might be like and I think it's super interesting. If you think it's interesting too then maybe you wanna buy The Mind of a Bee by Lars Chittka and read it. It's mostly not about this stuff, as I say it's light on philosophy and heavy on bee-life immersion, but if you actually read this whole post then you're probably in the market for that I feel like.

#creatures: they've got a lot going on #I think we'd better just let them get on with it #nohopereadio #uninteresting

[buddiebeginz]

I keep seeing posts about how us Buddie fans are just being delusional. How we need to stop reading so much into what’s being said during interviews and oh also how it’s offensive to the current ship.

First of all let’s be clear here Buck is NOT in a relationship with Tommy. I feel like this is something you Buck/Tommy shippers are failing to grasp because I constantly see posts about how Buck shouldn’t cheat on Tommy. They have kissed once and been on 2ish dates they are not a couple yet. Being exclusive requires a conversation or at least some acknowledgment by the characters and we haven’t had that yet. They still barely know each other.

Second we have always theorized about Buddie when the characters were with other love interests. We did when Buck was with Taylor. We did when Eddie was with Ana. Is it somehow different now because Tommy is a guy? Is it different now because Buck and Tommy aren't straight? Or is it just because Buck is dating the guy you want him to be with now? I don't know there's just something very strange about how some of you are responding to Buddie/Buddie shippers with all of this.

What's even crazier to me is that so many of you who are all about Buck/Tommy now used to be Buddie shippers or still say you'll be happy if Buddie happens down the line. Yet you're still attacking Buddie and our meta and speculation because it threatens the current ship you want at the moment.

No one is saying that every one of our theories and speculation is 100% correct but we have always speculated on the show and the interviews this isn't something new people are doing. I feel like the response some you have is that we're somehow seeing/hearing only what we want to and or twisting the words of the actors/etc to fit some kind narrative we have about Buddie.

It's not like we're seeing interviews where Oliver, Lou, Tim, etc are saying Buck and Tommy are going to be together 4eva and then immediately twisting that to mean oh they must be lying Buddie is so obviously happening tomorrow. We're inferring what we think might happen based on spoilers and what the actors (and Tim) have said combined with what we hope might happen. We know not everything we think will happen will. We had a ton of theories on 7x04 and 7x05 (many of which turned out to not be true) and despite what some of you think we didn't all collectively lose our shit because they didn't come true.

You can dislike Buddie and us all you want and can disagree with us or our theories all you want but these posts talking about how we're just seeing what we want and setting ourselves up for disappointment come across as hypocritical (considering most of you used to be Buddie shippers) and patronizing. We don't need or want you to save us from our fandom experience. If we're disappointed by the storyline that's our business but right now we're having fun with where things in the show are and are going.

---

I also really don't like how some of you are trashing Buddie to prop up Buck/Tommy. Basically saying that because Buck and Eddie's feelings haven't been verbally confirmed on screen (like in an I'm in love with you kind of way) that we're making it into something it's not and it's not fair to Buck/Tommy because they are canon.

Buddie isn't in a romantic relationship at the moment but they have loved and supported one another and always been been more than friends since basically the beginning. Even Oliver just confirmed that Buck was attracted to Eddie from the first scene. And no attraction alone doesn't equal love but if you can look at the six seasons of history shared by these two characters and only see two bros being the bestest friends you really need to take some media literacy.

I feel like some of you don't understand that not every part of a fictional story is spelled out super literally nor should it be. We know how deep Buck and Eddie's love goes because we can infer that based on their scenes. On all the ways they are there for one another, on how they treat each other, on how their relationship differs from the other friendships on the show. On all the things they say and don't say to one another. A big reason we want to see them in a canon romantic relationship is because of how clear the show has already made it that these two men love each other.

As for Tommy even though I'm not a multishipper I get Tommy's significance in the storyline. I'm also more thankful than I can put into words that Oliver and the show have decided to do Buck's bi awakening storyline epecially considering I'm bi myself. Buck being bi and his journey is incredibly important all on it's own but Buddie being canon is equally as important not because we need to see these guys together but because of what they represent. We have never had a slow burn same sex love story like this and the way it would change media forever if Buddie were to be canon cannot be understated.

#buddie #911!

[atthebell]

i think one thing that's always been interesting to me is that people really believe/take for granted that the federation's goal is the islanders' happiness, when we really don't have any way of knowing if that's the truth. cucurucho says it a lot, claiming to care about islanders' happiness above all else, and it's been scattered throughout some federation lore (as well as being hinted at with the reset cinematics), but that doesn't mean it's actually true-- it could still be a smokescreen of what they really want. which, imo, is not happiness.

if it's all one big experiment, supposedly one of many, the idea that this one is the one that involves seeing what happens when islanders are happy is not a provable thing still, nor is it clear what that actually means to the federation. does happiness mean the islanders are content to remain on the island? does happiness mean building relationships and connecting with others? does happiness mean self-fulfillment (something deeply immeasurable)? it's not clear what it means to the federation, nor if that is their true goal. it could be that that has nothing to do with their goal, and is a complete misdirect. it could be that cucurucho's prime directive is the islanders' happiness (not that it's very good at that), but that's meant as a tactic to stymie islander curiosity/resistance. it could be any number of things.

and i think viewing it from a more meta lens of "we cannot tell what is or is not the truth; not only are all character povs biased but so is the larger narrative presented to us." i think comparing this framework to something like the good place is helpful, in that when you assume that what you're presented with is the truth and don't look at the setting critically, you will miss the fact that things presented to you as fact by any kind of source (including the framework of the medium itself or the established setting) are suspect and should be examined further.

i can even put it in a smaller way; there are ways within a limited character pov to present things as directly happening when they are not, and these are ways that mcrp creators have utilized. playing out an event that did not actually happen, canonical hallucinations, dream sequences that are not explained as such, physical representations of metaphorical experiences, etc. etc. are ALL things that mcrp creators of done. tricking your audience is an incredibly interesting and at times vital part of mcrp. so if just one creator within their own pov can do it, why can't the whole narrative? why can't you be convinced you're in a different genre, why can't you be convinced that the physical location your characters are placed in is someplace that isn't?

all this to say, i think a major issue in terms of analyzing media like this is allowing yourself to go along with assumptions without thinking about why you're falling so easily into them as truth. making all of your lore assumptions based off the notion that it is objective fact that the federation cares about and has the goal of islanders' happiness means you are going to miss details and fixate on others without looking at the full scope of possibilities. which i think was a serious issue during the height of investigation/mystery stuff-- people fell into the trap of "i KNOW this to be true" without considering the man behind the curtain. sure, cellbit found documents indicating that the federation was founded on isla quesadilla-- considering who sent him on the trail of said documents, who's to say that that's the truth?

i think bagi is a particularly interesting investigator when it comes to this kind of thing-- she's VERY good at holding onto a lot of different possibilites in her mind, even going so far as to act on a lot of them at once, and that means she doesn't take anything for granted. having all of the data in front of you, without attempting to skew it to a theory you already have in mind (which i admit is very difficult to do! humans are biased and are geared towards pattern recognition), is an important skill when it comes to any kind of data analysis or investigation.

anyway idk where i was going with this i just started thinking about like. what is involved in good theorizing and how focusing on something you believe to be fact can lead you in the wrong direction, and i think the idea of the islander's happiness as the federation's main goal is one of those very fraught assumptions people get caught up in.

#bell.txt #qsmp analysis

[canonicallyanxious]

i'm stupid so i absolutely did not put together Conrad Schintz as "conscience" until i saw someone in the tag point this out but now that it's in my dumb brain i can't stop thinking about it. Alex's choice to portray Conrad as this softspoken never speaks up but still has to do Something boy who is kind and thoughtful to a fault. pitch perfect character choices!!! but also this tiny quiet boy somehow being pegged by the heads of the city as the BIGGEST DISTRACTION to the big guy's goals and ambitions!! and then his choice of the important article to pay attention to being the culmination of Elias' months and months of research - specifically for the goal of, as Conrad put it, getting it before the "big wigs" could get to it. WHAT is Elias Hodge DOING for Gobstopper Industries??????

#sarah.txt #dimension 20 #mentopolis #d20 spoilers #d20 meta #story meta #kind of????? this isn't really meta just me going WHAT is going on and being too dumb to figure it out skdnfskdfnsd #god these fucking world building choices though. #cortisol being the main hormone available legally and one of its functions is to regulate stress response. #the city is on strict pleasure/love lockdown until elias gets a raise. #his conscience is a tiny little boy who no one ever listens to but still somehow managed to shake up the whole city w one small choice. #logic is the mayor!!! ambition is the DA!!!!! #all of these small things that tell us SO MUCH about who elias hodge is as a person without ever even meeting the big guy!!!!!! #Brennan how much fucking WORK did you put into this world building i'm SCREAMING!!!!!

[todayisafridaynight]

sorry if you've already been asked this but what did you think about eiji in iw? like idk i feel like they were trying to recreate a masato and ichi moment without actually having any of the elements that made their relationship narratively compelling.

as a whole, i thought eiji was at least a nice 'how he wished things couldve been' for ichi in regards to masato, but still being independent enough from the masato comparison to stand on his own as a character (or at least as an antagonist. his actions wasn't what was reminding me he was a masato parallel, but more so ichi's insistence he help him). i think thats why ichi and eiji's relationship don't have the same 'elements' that make their relationship interesting like masato and ichi's

#iw spoilers #not really but lol #snap chats #like what made masato and ichi interesting was their family dynamic and how they were narrative foils to each other #eiji isn't supposed to be that. both in-universe and meta wise he's just meant to remind ichi of masato not wholly replace him #and not replace who masato was in ichi's life. just yk. trick him for a bit fJALKAJ #i mean sure you can still find their relationship uninteresting with that in mind so just to me i thought it was cute at the very least #at least in that you can see ichi trying his hardest to connect with eiji #like you can tell he just doesn't want history to repeat even if he's mostly projecting his fears onto eiji #and the situation is not. equivocal LMAO but i digress #i don't feel strongly about eiji one way or another- i mean i liked how it was easy to tell he was going to be an antagonist vjlKJAJ #i dont mind that kind of thing though. i like being able to pick up on things being Not Right with a character or situation #so it was neat seeing how that culminated. still confused on what he was blackmailing chitose with but i assume it's family related #sometimes i think about how beau says eiji and ebina were meant to be rgg feeling bad about killing aoki and it makes me chortle vjalkvjla #anyway thats the end of my eiji prattle. oh ps i like how he actually had a chair that doesnt look painful to sit in #veyr cringe he turned out Not to be disabled but listen if i start talking about masato's disability again im gonna lose my mind #as i frantically close my thirty tabs about lung diseases/conditions and lung transplants and patients' anecdotes post operation

[cuubism]

dream in episode 8: time for me to be an unmitigated dick to everyone i encounter 🥰

#he was doing pretty well with rose until he was like oh you just found your brother? well too bad this dream is over YEET #what's funny is i totally understand every decision he made in the episode it's not like he set out with the goal of being an asshole XD #it just happened anyway 😂 poor dream #like he can't really help jed the waking world is not his purview and helping one human in the waking would set a bad precedent #he can't just leave gault there because again sets a bad precedent #he does what he THINKS is correct in forcing her to remain a nightmare #(i also kind of read that scene as like #dream already HAS changed and knows it but isn't ready to confront it. but that aside) #but yeah it's honestly funny to me how much of a jerk he is in this episode not even intentionally #and yes i'm still only on episode 8 what about it #this ep is interesting tho because it's very much an outsider's perspective of dream #he's not really the protagonist of this story arc so we get a lot of other people's view of him instead of his own pov #(the scene of the corinthian going to talk to rose and then seeing matthew and quietly going 'fuck' and walking away #was the funniest example) #the sandman #meta #not really #more like commentary

[lgbtlunaverse]

What kind of saber is baxia anyway?

I love my bloodthirsty princess of a cursed blade, and in my heart of hearts i am nothing but a sword nerd, so i've been extremely fascinated by Baxia and how we know frustratingly little about what she actually looks like!

I mean, look at bichen, right?

Bichen in the donghua:

Bichen in the drama:

They're clearly not exactly the same. The scabbards are different, and the guards have a different shape. But these are recognizably different iterations on one theme, right? Thin jian with a white grip silver guard, light blue tassel and silver mounting accents on the scabbard.

Now this is baxia in the donghua:

And baxia in the drama:

????????

THAT'S A COMPLTELY DIFFERENT WEAPON

it doesn't stop there either, the audio drama is kind enough to give us ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BAXIA

pretty! But how is that he same sword??

And when we go back to the novel, we get very little information on her appearance other than the fact that her blade is tinted red with all the blood she's absorbed. Which none of these designs incorporate.

This is not a dig on the designs itself, they're all quite gorgeous in their own right and i'm going to spend a while discussing all of them! Because isn't it fascinating how, since we know little about novel baxia beyond "saber" all of these designs ended up so different? What kinds of sabers are these, anyway?

So, a chinese aber, aka a "dao" (刀) just means a sword that has only one cutting side. As opposed to a jian, which has two.

You can see how that leaves a LOT of room for variaton.

I've actually seen some people get confused because Huaisang's saber in the untsmed is thin and quite straight, making it superficially resemble the jian more than drama!baxia, but it is still clearly a saber!

See? only one cutting blade!

This, to me looks a lot like a tang dynasty hengdao

credit to this blog for providing his image and being a great source for all this going forward.

TANGENT: during all this I found out the english wikipedia page for dao is WRONG! Ths is what they about the tang hengdao!

So that sounds like the hengdao was called that during the sui dynasty, but then, after that, started being called a peidao, right?

WRONG

I LOOKED AT THE SOURCE THEY USED AND IT SAYS THIS:

IT WAS CALLED THE PEIDOU UNTIL THE SUI DYNASTY, AT WHICH POINT IT WAS CALLED A HENGDAO. Which would carry over to the Tang dynasty. This was the source wikipedia linked! and it says something else than they say it does!

Anyone know how to edit a wikipedia article?

ANYWAY

BACK TO BAXIA

Since we're already at the drama, let's look at drama baxia: She's also straight! the general term for straight-backed saber is Zhibeidao, but that's a modern collector's term, and doesn't really say anything about which historical kind of saber baxia could be based on. Another meta i found on the drama nie sabers already went on some detail here.

I'm gonna expand on that a little: The kinds of historical straight-backed sabers we see resemble the hengdao a lot more than they do baxia. They don't go to their point as harsly as she does (she's basically a cleaver!) and they're all way skinnier.

No, my personal theory is that instead of being based on any kind of historical sword, drama!baxia is based on a Nandao.

I mean, come on, look at it!

Baxia!

The Nandao... isn't actually a historical sword. It was invented for Wushu forms. There's a really fascinating article about its conception, but that's why the swords in the images look a little thin and flimsy. Wushu swords are very flexible and light, they're dance props, not weapons to fight with. There are actual steel versions of Nandao, but they're recreations of the prop, not the other way around.

So That's one way in which Baxia differes from the Nandao: she's actually a real weapon. The other is that, as you can see above, the nandao has an S-shaped guard. Baxia doesn't. She's also much more elaborately decorated, of course. Because she's a princess.

Now: audio drama baxia!

This is much easier. with that flare at the tip?

Oh baby that's a niuweidao, all the way!

There are more sabers with that kind of curved handle, but the broad tip is really charcteristic of the niuweidao. The Niuweidao is also incredibly poplar in modern media, often portrayed as a historical sword, but it originated i nthe 19th century! And it was actually never used by the military!

That's right, the Niuweidao was pretty much exclusively a civilian weapon! That makes its use here anachronistic, but so is the nandao, and considering that the origin story of the Nie is that they use Dao intead of Jian because their ancestors were butchers, portraying them with a weapon historically reserved for rebels and common people instead of the imperial military is actually very on theme!

Finally, Donghua/Manhua baxia. These two designs are so similar I'm going to treat them as one and the same for now.

Unlike both previous baxias, The long handle makes it clear this baxia is a two-handed weapon, though Nie Mingjue is absolutely strong enough to wield her with one hand anyway. Normal rules don't count for cultivators.

Now, this is where things get tricky, because there are a lot of words for long two-handed sabers. And a lot of them are interchangable! This youtube video about the zhanmadao, one of the possible sabers this baxia could be based on, goes a little into just how confusing this can get. This kind of blade WAS actually in military use for many centuries, making it the most historically accurate of all the baxias. But because of that it also has several names and all of those names can also refer to different kinds of blades depending on what century we're in.

So here's our options: i'm going to dismiss the wodao and miandao, because these were explicitly based on japanese sword design, and as we can see manhua baxia has that very broad tip, so that won't work

(Example of a wodao. According to my sources Miaodao is really just the modern common term for the wodao, and the changdao, and certain kinds of zhanmadao... do you see how quickly this gets confusing?)

Next option: Zhanmadao.

Zhanmadao stands for "horse chopping saber" so... yeah they were anti-cavalry weapons. meant to be able to cut the legs and/or necks of horses. That definitely sounds like a weapon Nie Mingjue would wield. But if you watched that youtube video i linked above, you'll know the standardized Qing dinasty Zhanmadao looked very different from earlier versions. It was inspired by the japanese odachi, and more resembles the miandao than its ealrier heftier counteprarts.

Earlier Ming dynasty Zhanmadao on the other hand were... basically polearms. the great ming military blog spot, another wonderful source, says these are essentially a kind of podao/pudao (朴刀) which looked like this

Now that blade looks a lot like baxia, but the handle is honestly too long. Donghua!baxia straddles the line between sword an polearm a little, but while zhanmadao have been used to refer to both long-handled swords and polerarms, this was undeniably a polearm, not a sword.

If you want to know what researching this was like, I found a picture of this blade on pinterest-- labeled as a "two-handed scimitar"-- and the comment section was filled with people arguing about whether this was a Pudao, Wudao, Zhanmadao, Dadao, Guandao, or a japanese Nagita.

So... that's how it was going. This has kept me up until 2 AM multiple times.

However! Thanks to this article on the great ming military blog I found out there have historically been pudao blades with shorter handles!

Specifically, Ming dynasty military writer Cheng Ziyi created a modified version of the pudao to work with the Dan Fao Fa Xuan technixues-- aka technqiues for a two-handed saber, which would alter heavily influence Miaodao swordmanship-- thereby, as the article points out, essentially merging the cleaver-polearm type Zhanmadao with the later two-handed japanese-inspired design.

This is the illustration for the Wu Bei Yao Lue (武備要略) a Ming dynasty military manual

This blade shape in the illustration doesn't match Baxia exactly, but since it's a lengthened Pudao-like blade and we've seen above that those can match Donghua Baxia's shape, i'm gonna say that calling Baxia a Zhanmadao with a two-handed grip isn't all that innacurate!

However, because all of these terms are so intertwined, there are a dozen other things you could call her that would be about equally correct.

To show that, here's a lightning round of other potential Baxia candidates:

Dadao (大刀)

Which are generally one-handed and too short. However!

Another youtube video i found of someone training with a Zhanmadao that resembles baxia a little also calls it a "shuangshoudai dao" (雙手带 刀) shuangshou means two-handed, and while 雙手带 seems to refer to a longer handled weapon, when looking for a shuangshou dao or shuangshou dadao (双手大刀) we find a lot more baxia-resembling blades like here and here

I also found that, while the cleaver-like Dadao is strictly a product of the 20th centuy, since dadao just means big sword or big knife, it has been used to refer to loads of different weapons! Some people could've called the zhanmadao and pudao "dadao" during the Ming dynasty as well.

Another potential baxia candidate that mandarin mansion classifies as similar to the later dadao (though longer, as seen in the illustration below) is the "Kuanren Piandao"

Which piqued my interest because this diagram classifying different tpye of Dao:

Claims that a Kuanrenbiandao (diferent spelling, same sword) is the same as a modern day Zhanmadao.

(So once again, all of these terms are interchangable)

Another opton Is the Chuanmeidao/Chuanweidao (船尾刀) below you can see a diagram, based on the Qing dynasty green standard army regulation, of blades all officially classified as types of "pudao"

The top middle is the Kuanren Piandao, and bottom left is the Chuanweidao.

Both of these have a lot of baxia-like qualities.

So there you go! live action baxia is based on a Nandao, audio drama baxia is based on a Niuweidao, and Manhua/donghua baxia is some kind of two-handed Zhanmadao/Pudao/Dadao depending on how you want to look at it.

I'm honestly surprised no one has made the creative decision to portray Baxia as a Jiuhuandao, aka 9 ringed broadsword yet.

I mean look at it! Incredibly imposing. Would make for a great Baxia imo. (@ upcoming mdzs manga and mobile game: take notes!)

#mdzs #mdzs meta #nie mingjue #baxia #cql #the untamed #long post #I HAVE SO MANY TABS OPEN. FEEL MY SUFFERING #I understand that asking a gigantic region with thousands of years of rich history and many different subcultures #to have one standard naming convention is basically impossible #But could they do it anyway? for me? 🥺 #i also want to buy one of these... so bad #or even just a plastic trainer so i can practice the techniques #but i know that once i start buying swords i'm not gonna stop until my money runs out #Being a sword nerd is a very dangerous not phyisically but for your wallet

[jemmo]

Making sense of love for love's sake: the game

Despite all the things i absolutely adore about how the plot unravels and expands in love by love's sake, upon first watch, there's some things i couldn't piece together, which @lurkingshan echoes in their post:

'The way the author was messing with Myungha and forcing cruel choices on him really does not track with a desire to help him find happiness.'

And to preface, this is not something i fully get yet either. I think i'll need a good month and a sizeable reading list of relevant resources to understand just what/who this author/sunbae is and what his role is and how he is associated with myungha. But as always with the best shows for meta (aka bad buddy), as a plot unfolds, you can always find a better understanding by looking backwards and re-contextualising what you've already seen. so i watched ep 1, specifically the scene between myungha and his sunbae at the bar. And i will talk about how everything said in this scene has a whole new meaning now we know the full story, but for now i wanna focus on that question that they keep coming back to; "Then... will you change it for him?".

When you watch the show for the first time, your brain follows the simplest, most obvious version of the story you're being told, one where myungha has been pulled into the world of his sunbae's novel that's being turned into a game and given the opportunity to fix the thing he didn't like about it; making yeowoon happy, and thus you just think the rules of the game are imposed by the author, and so when these cruel choices first come up, you see them as the difficult roadblocks that are nevertheless necessary to any kind of game, forcing the player to make an impossible choice so that the game can continue in a certain direction and its only after that you learn whether it was the right choice or not, or there is no right choice, it simply changes the game you are playing.

And when its revealed what this game actually is, at first i tried to interpret these cruel choices, namely the choice between yeonwoon and myungha's grandma, and at best i could come up with the concept of this being a choice between staying stuck to the past aka choosing his grandma, even though he knows that choice doesn't mean she's safe bc he knows the future where he loses here, its an inevitability, but thats the small happiness he knew before it was taken away and thus that happiness is known and safe, theres no risk, versus choosing to pursue a new happiness, a love of yeowoon and thus himself, which he doesn't know, he hasn't experienced yet, and could be risky. Its a happiness that isn't guaranteed like his grandma, but its a happiness that looks to the future and has hope in it that he can find a new happiness to pursue despite what has happened in his past.

And that fits nice, okayish. But then i watched ep 1 and heard that question "Then... will you change it for him?" And watching through the rest of the eps, we come back to this scene at the bar and each time we get a new run up to the author asking this question, either new dialogue is added or we hear a different piece of the conversation entirely. It starts at the beginning of ep 1 as:

"Because Cha Yeowoon is the only one who's miserable." "It can't be helped that some people's lives are like that" "The fact that some people are destined to live that kind of life is what's vile."

Then a bit later in ep 1 we go back and its expanded.

"It can't be helped that some people's lives are like that" "The fact that some people are destined to live that kind of life is what's vile." "Why? Do you think you'd write it differently?" "Yes, definately. Someone like Cha Yeowoon, or someone like me with an awful life, can also be happy."

And then all the way on in ep 6, we get this new dialogue.

"I don't like talking about destiny." "Why?" "Because it means everything is predestined." "Then do you not believe in fate?" "Fate and destiny are the same. My grandma likes to say that. She said life is like a written book, and how you'll live and die are written in it. (...)I don't like things like this. Even if fate is already destined, I think it can still be changed. Otherwise, there's no point in trying." "Really? Then Myungha..."

And while we don't hear the author ask the same question, I feel like him getting cut off like that insinuates that the conversation leads to that same ending point. All that is to say, every time we hear this question being asked, its like we learn more and more about what this whole thing is, what the game is, what myungha is saying he will do by agreeing to do what the author asks. And every time, we see myungha being more defiant against the idea of yeowoon being resigned to his miserable ending. He starts off thinking that kind of life is destined, and while it's miserable, its not something he can fight. Then he says he'd want to write the story differently, bc yeowoon, or even him, could be happy. He challenges the idea that yeowoon, and thus himself, is fated to be miserable, and opens up the possibility for happiness for them both, but doesn't yet have the means or resolve to do it, its like he knows its possible on a fundamental level, but doesn't see it as something he can actually achieve. But then we circle back to the idea of destiny and books, both of which came up in the previous quote, and seems incredibly pertinent seen as this whole thing is about a novel this author has written. Myungha talks about how he hates the idea that life is a book where everything written is predestined to happen, from the moment you live to the moment you die. He says "Even if fate is already destined, I think it can still be changed. Otherwise, there's no point in trying." That vile way of life he described before that he said was destined, he is now saying it can be changed, and that possibility is now something he's holding onto, its what he sees hope in so that he can keep trying, bc now he finally is trying, he has the resolve, he's trying to realise this thing, this impossibility of rewriting the life he thought was destined through the way he loves yeowoon.

And coming back to those cruel choices, given this fresh context, it made me think. bc this isn't actually a game that myungha has been put into where the rules are dictated by an author completely separate from him. He said himself, he'd rewrite it, he'd change things for yeowoon. And when you start to think of it less as him fighting against a rigid, removed system and more like him being a character in a story he is trying to rewrite himself, that has both the author and his own limitations, or just his own if you're in the school of thought that the author is some figment or part of myungha himself or his conciousness, then you can start to see where these cruel choices might come from. They could be myungha, the author making edits to this new story, imposing his own doubts and limitations on himself. When he says he has to pick between Yeowoon and his grandma, what if that's the new author myungha seeing this story unfold and thinking no this isn't right, he can't have it all, i'm not deserving of this much happiness.

And what makes me like this idea even more is that when we get that second choice between ending after 14 days or getting 100 days back at the cost of resetting Yeowoon's affection to 0, that whole conversation happens in what I think the bar actually is which is this frozen moment in time where myungha is in the water with this extension of a voice in his head that is talking through these things. That conversation in itself needs its own post, but when you look at it both as a decision to break up or not or a decision to hold onto life or not, you can see how the author is just this soundboard relaying the decisions myungha is going through in his head. The author's voice is his own, weighing up his decisions. And if he is the author here, it only reinforces that the person making the rules of this game is him. You can even extend it further to the idea of the debuffs, where he puts in place this thing that makes it so he causes harm to yeowoon when he's around, and its only by garnering affection that he can prevent it. He gives himself a reason from the get go to stay away from yeowoon and reason it as him doing it for yeowoon's safety, when in fact the only way to make yeowoon safe is to increase his affection, which he can only do by being near him. Its a system that at first gives myungha a reason to stay away aka not like himself, but ultimately says the only way you're going to make yeowoon like you, or the only way you can like yourself, is if you accept risk. And that in itself screams to me of a myungha writing in these game systems that are trying to encourage his own-self love while falling at the hurdle of his own lack of self-worth.

The idea is still messy in my head even for me, but i just really like the idea that myungha could be trying to fix this thing both as a character and game master, and that both these versions of him have these flaws that manifest in their different ways to cause the events we see. It kinda is the definition of being your own worst enemy, the idea that in order to work towards loving yourself, the biggest obstacle you have to encounter is yourself, bc we are the ones holding ourselves back, making all these rules that make it harder to like ourselves and pursue our own happiness. The voices in our head telling us that we aren't good enough and aren't deserving are our own, and while the things that happen to us can inform what they say, we're the one's reinforcing those words. And what this show teaches us is that, if we're the one holding that pen all along, we can choose to change what those words are. If we make the rules, you don't have to create a game with concrete ultimatums, you can create a game where rules don't control you. Instead, you make the decisions, and you can make the ones that make you happy.

#wow look at me writing actual kinda thought out meta #also something something about how the pen being in his pocket wasnt a pen given to him by the author its a pen that was his the whole time #look even if this isnt the right interpretation as intended by the author i just kinda adore this headcanon ive come up with and i cant wai #to rewatch the show again through this lens and see if it holds up #i just adore the idea of this whole thing being this manifestation of a flawed doubtful person trying to navigate through their own messy #nonsensical thoughts to find their own happiness #bc yes thats what triggered me thinking of this whole thing. me seeing that post and thinking yeah that doesnt make sense7 #but then again when you tell yourself things an put your own mental blocks in the way they dont make sense either but you still have to fin #the ways to work around them in order to find happiness #like those things dont go away we just find the loopholes or the ways to overcome them that mean we can be happy #the game is your own mind - deal with your own existential crisis as you wish #anyway this is only part 1 in what i hope will be a very extensive meta analysis of this show - stay tuned #love for love's sake

[antimony-medusa]

Okay so, the thing about Boundaries, and why people keep bringing them up over and over again to creators, is I think there's a bit of a desire for what people are doing here to not be weird. Cause like, the creator signed off on it, so like, I'm fine and you can't make fun of me or get mad at me.

And like, I understand the desire to not be made fun of or have people get mad at you, believe me, I know, but I think we have all just gotta accept that what we're doing is— it's a little weird, bro.

Like by definition what fandom is is getting a little too much into your thing. Fan comes from Fanatic. We all saw some block men and we went way too hard with it. And I think that sufficiently viewed from the outside, there is just no way to do any kind of transformational creation and it not be weird to the wrong people.

Like, taking a character and making them miserable? One of the honourable fandom traditions, whether you're whumping them or if you go hard into comfort at the end. For someone entirely outside of fandom, that's just like why are you DOING that, bro, and when you add in the fact that we're using people's real names (well, gamer tags), there's no way for that not to be odd. "The creator said it was okay" is not going to make people go ??? any less. (Let me emphasize that this is fine, it's just like, also, you bring that up on the bus and peope go ????)

Let's look at fluff. You want to write about your characters in a coffee shop au? You want to write about your characters in a cuddly family dynamic, taking care of each other? You want to age down characters and write kid fic where they learn to face the challenges of the world and it's just so cute and you love them so much even if nothing really bad happens? I promise you that my non-fandom parents are gonna be like "why are you spending your time on that" and again, if you throw in the "is this real people" (it isn't, but that is a delicate thing to explain), you're looking at people staring at you in discomprehension and backing away.

Shippy stuff. Again, one of the honourable fandom traditions. You just love your guys and you want to write about how much they love each other (or maybe make it tragic about how only one person can make it out of the cactus ring). You spent all this time thinking about their feelings writing it out. You write out a kiss scene. It makes you flail happily. Most people don't do that! Absolutely fun to do? Yes! Something you can bring up as an ice breaker at the company potluck? Probably not! We are too much into the characters, and that's fine, but it's still gonna look a bit odd from the outside!

Plotty gen. You're writing an entire new story, but you're taking existing characters for it? Like it's original fiction, but you're using existing characters? Why not just write original fiction <I have had this conversation. Oh, you're writing a story about minecraft characters, and they— they get tortured? Like it starts with them being tortured? <also a fun conversation to be in.

I'm mostly thinking about this from the fanfiction side, but art, meta— we are just getting into things way too much. We're spending hours on this stuff. We drew the creators minecraft sonas in maid dresses. There are millions of words of fiction on the archive about every conceivable universe of good/bad things happeing to the characters. It is a primary hobby, where I could be learning piano or paying attention to sports. And I'm not, and like, that's fine.

I am here to tell you that people absolutely might find what we're doing weird, and also it's entirely fine. I just ran a poll about the sexiest minecraft character that got 68k votes on the most voted poll. And then I had to explain that to my doctor to explain why I didn't really have a normal baseline for the past week to compare to. (Doctor visibly thought it was weird but he was also like "you go" because he's a good doctor, but I had to start with explaining minecraft because he knew NOTHING about what I was talking about.) You just gotta accept that fandom is for a small segment of the population, we are all having fun with ourselves, and it's for us, it's not for the general population, and stop trying to make it palatable to people who don't care to understand. People on this site keep saying "racist white boys" and then they don't have the intellectual curiosity to pursue further as to why maybe that's not true, having a boundaries post is not going to make them nicer. It's fine. They're being jerks, we're just having fun.

And like, stop trying to get the creator to sign off on it. Accept that sometimes we're being weird and they can look at it if they want to see the weird fanatics going too hard with the characters. They will tell us if we're doing something they want to stop associating with their name, and up until that point, just accept that what we're doing is weird, and have fun with it.

We're weird.

Be more weird 2k23.

Have fun with it.

I wrote a time travel AU in DMs with a friend last night about a bird man and a minecraft piglin. Not normal. It's FINE.

#discourse #mcyt #medusas banger posts #fandom meta

[iam93percentstardust]

one of the things that really bothers me about modern franchises, and in particular over the last 5 years or so, is their refusal to commit. what i mean here when i say this is that it's not uncommon for a major franchise to make a decision, whether about the plot or the characters, that should have had huge, world-changing consequences... and then just never address that again or worse, immediately go back and undo it. and i'm gonna pick on star wars and the mcu here because those are the two big franchises i'm into at the moment (and i think they're kind of the worst at this), but i don't want you to walk away from this thinking that this is solely a disney thing. i've seen this happen with game of thrones and supernatural and plenty of other non-disney franchises. spoilers ahead, you've been warned:

in ant-man & the wasp quantumania, scott and hope make the life-altering decision to stay behind in the quantum realm and defeat kang instead of going through the portal to return to their world. this should have been a huge meta decision for the mcu, and when i first saw it in theaters, my immediate thought was wow, what is this going to mean for the mcu going forward? are we going to get a movie/miniseries about scott and hope helping to rebuild the quantum realm? how are cassie, janet, and hank going to react to the losses of their loved ones (in some cases, for the second time)? is cassie going to become the "first" young avenger because she has to take her father's place among the team lineup (and i only say first because as of this moment, none of the other young avengers introduced to the franchise are official avengers yet)? except nope, because less than 2 minutes later, cassie had fixed the portal that had broken way back at the beginning of the movie and brought scott and hope back.

and it felt like such a cheat. i was so disappointed in that theater, not as someone who was invested in these characters on a personal level (because yay, cassie gets her dad back!), but as someone who has spent years investing themselves in the story of the mcu. what was the point of wasting screentime on scott and hope accepting their new lives in the quantum realm if it was just going to immediately be undone? the entire scene could have been cut to scott and hope making it back bare seconds before the portal closed and it would have had the same emotional impact. there was nothing added by making scott and hope (and us) think that there was no way back only to rip the rug out from under us and go "gotcha! you really thought we were gonna give this movie a sad ending? haha! you're so dumb!"

and this isn't the first time the mcu has done this. one of the biggest complaints about endgame was the decision to set it five years in the future with no consideration for how that would actually change the setting of the mcu. characters were brought back to the exact place they disappeared from with no consideration for how things might have changed in the interim five years (like planes that weren't in the air anymore, buildings no longer standing, even just something as simple as a chair being unoccupied). and then the mcu didn't even really have the courage to address how this would have shaped the world other than a few jokes and making the bad guys in the falcon and the winter soldier people who cared about how the world had screwed them over during the blip.

and things like this happen over and over and over again. the accords are put into place in civil war, but by the time we get to she-hulk, they're gone with no explanation because, as best as i can tell, the writers didn't want to have to deal with the worldbuilding that went into the accords. gamora is killed in infinity war, but heaven forbid quill not have an emotional investment in a film he appears for maybe 10 minutes in so now she's back in endgame. steve got to go live in the past with his ex-girlfriend (which is in itself a refusal to commit after the mcu both gave her a different husband and had the woman herself tell him to move on) but we need to establish that messing with timelines is bad because that's what the entire next phase hinges on so actually his ending was predestined and it's only everyone else who can't change time. whoever took this entire town and also wanda hostage and forced them to live out a sitcom fantasy is bad and needs to be stopped but wait, it's actually wanda and she can't be the bad guy yet, we need her for doctor strange 2, so actually everyone's going to defend her now and say that no one else could ever possibly understand her grief. thor has decided to accept responsibility as king of asgard, but we can't use him for any more movies if he's stuck in asgard, so actually he's decided to pass it on to someone whose entire leadership capability is developed offscreen. i could list more examples but this is making me angry, so let's move on to star wars instead.

with star wars, i look at first the oft-quoted meme, "somehow palpatine has returned." yeah, i shouldn't really need to go into detail on how that counts as a refusal to commit but. the last jedi was a study in how johnson refused to commit to anything that abrams had laid down in the force awakens, but rise of skywalker was almost like abrams had looked at the franchise and said "screw you for taking it away from me, i'm going to come up with the most bullshit stuff just to spite you for doing that in the first place. and i'm going to start by undoing the most important plot point of the first trilogy: the emperor dies." and yeah, disney's kind of tried to salvage this by dropping hints into the bad batch and the mandalorian about cloning, but that only really works if you're watching the franchise chronologically and not considering that both of those series came out after rise of skywalker.

and then there's the mandalorian, my sweet summer child, who is, in my opinion, the worst at backtracking their plot points. i'm not entirely convinced that any of the higher ups for this show really knew what they were doing when they started working on it and i'm not convinced that they know what they're doing now. yeah, there's the tie-in to the last season of clone wars, but the mandalorian has managed to walk back pretty much every single major plot point it's had. din is this legendary warrior who can't be beat, but no one will watch this show if he defeats everyone too early, so he's constantly getting beat up (tbf, sometimes some of the fights he loses makes sense like the krayt dragon and the mudhorn, but a lot of them don't. at all). moff gideon is dead, no wait no he's not, now he's imprisoned, no wait no he's not, now he's definitely dead, you can totally believe us this time guys. grogu can use the force and must be placed with the jedi, but wait, the only person still actively teaching the way of the jedi is luke and all of his students will be brutally murdered ten years from now, and we can't have that, everyone will be mad at us for killing off such a cute character and no one will buy baby yoda dolls (and also we have to set up luke's character degradation from hopeful, believes-in-love cinnamon roll to "i'm going to kill my nephew") so in between seasons let's have grogu decide to go back to din (and don't even get me started on how frustrating it is that a casual mandalorian watcher also had to watch book of boba fett to understand why grogu is back). din has the darksaber now which makes him king of mandalore, that's totally going to be important and what the entire series has been building up to, right? wrong! he might have spent the first two seasons making connections, learning about the world outside his sheltered upbringing, and demonstrating the various qualities that would make for a good leader, but the entire third season will be about din realizing that actually he's super unworthy and the darksaber should actually go to someone who... saw an animal in the water.

and it's really, really frustrating as a viewer! because how am i supposed to get invested in any of these plot decisions when they almost always get reversed? why should i care that mj and ned have forgotten peter when ant-man 3 has shown me that they'll remember him the next time they're all on screen together? why should i care that tech is dead when half of the last season of clone wars was about how echo was actually alive? if none of these decisions have any permanence, then where are the emotional stakes? why should i watch your movie if all you're going to tell me is that nothing matters?

#and also i want to make a point that the early mcu did permanent stakes really well #iron man 1 ends with tony announcing that he's iron man and that's something that still resonated years later #the entire second film hinged on that one moment #loki falling into the bifrost is what leads him to the chitauri which is what kickstarted the avengers #steve is woken from the ice and the first organization who presents themselves as someone to trust is shield #which sets up the betrayal he feels in the winter soldier #these moments resonate throughout the first two stages and the decisions the characters made MATTERED #so you can't help but get invested because what if it's the wrong decision??? #anyway i'm frustrated with the state of franchises #alle talks #long post

[bestygogirl]

BEST YGO GIRL: SEMI FINALS

Match 2

please use this as an opportunity to say why you like a character, not why you don't.

Propaganda under the cut!

Isis Ishtar

gorgeous, very caring sister, strong duelist, and the only woman to ever make Seto Kaiba squirm

anyways. not only as mentioned above is she the first woman to make kaiba squirm, but she was by all means going to beat him if not for the millennium rod's millennium interference. yami marik admits that she's a strong duelist with a strategy that's been working for literal years-- and given that she's not like, a professional duelist, thats pretty impressive

she also recently got some really cool meta bumps and let me point out that an "ishizu deck" now includes obelisk the tormentor-- which we knew she had prior to giving it to kaiba, but i think it only solidifies my opinion that she very much could wield an Egyptian God Card, an exclusive little club for top tier duelists

as a character she presents herself with an amazing amount of poise and grace, shes compassionate and kind and stays with mai and serenity even though she only just met them. shes struggling through living the past 5 years of her life drowning in guilt for her family's tragedy just because she wanted to make her little brother happy and shadi is a fucking liar. shes foretold her own death and marches towards it grimly but with so much love in her heart. and even then shes 20 years old and holds an important position in the egyptian government that typically requires a doctorate degree AND has been dealing with mariks off-and-on bullshit entirely by her lonesome. she also likes to flex her fortunetelling a little which is awesome i think she should do that more that scene where she tells the guy exactly how the stele is being transported was so everything

speaking of shes got such an attitude. "is it your destiny to waste my time?" iconic. never seen before will never be seen again. watch the duel between her va and joeys its so fucking funny

shes excult. shes doesnt flinch in the face of god nor death. seto kaiba and yami marik respect her. shes so sad and so sweet and battle city couldnt have happened without her.

also her parallels with kaiba are what motivate kaiba to give yugi the card he needed to beat marik.

kaiba, in duelist kingdom, was ready to jump off a ledge if yugi didnt let him through to face pegasus while trying to save mokuba out of sheer desperation to save his little brother. he KNOWS what that dedication feels like and the iron kind of will you need to have to make that kind of gamble. isis is being so fucking legit with what shes saying and he respects that and her judgement enough to change his mind and not only watch the duel, but give yugi a card that eventually helps him win, even if he has no real confidence in the odds. but theres a CHANCE, which is the same thing he taught her when he beat her in a duel. the layers its her faith that moves him to act. which is so crazy

anyway vote isis shes my best friend forever and a real rep for all the 20 year olds who honest to god did not sign up for this bullshit

Aki Izayoi

An abuse victim who isn't the perfect passive figure but gets to work through her complicated feelings about power, agency, and family. Even with Yusei's help, she is the star of the show when she learns to control her powers and reconciles with her father, it is so fun that a ygo heroine gets to take such an antagonistic role bu not be shamed for her anger

please vote for my main girl, aki izayoi. aki was led to believe she was a monster from a young age by her father, who treated her powers like it made her unworthy of love. as a result, divine was able to swoop in and take advantage of aki's low self esteem. for years, aki believed herself unworthy of love and was molded into a living weapon at the hands of authority figures in her life. she was taken advantage of, and thus when she finally comes face to face with yusei, she refuses to believe he could provide her with unconditional friendship. who would want to be around a monster, after all?

aki also nearly beats yusei TWICE in a duel, bringing it down to a single turn difference. she comes toe to toe with him, and it truly is the result of who dueled better. she remains a fierce duelist, btw. the second season, aki gets her duel runner license, and immediately nearly beats the ass of a tournament winning turbo duelist - to the point where once again, a single card is the deciding factor. that's right: she nearly won. if not for a single trap card, aki izayoi would've won.

a fierce duelist who was shaped into a loving, caring woman despite years of being beaten down by the world: aki izayoi. vote for her now on your phones.

#best ygo girl poll #semifinals #yugioh duel monsters #isis ishtar #ishizu ishtar #yugioh 5ds #aki izayoi #akiza izinski

[aspoonofsugar]

do you think the song out for love says something about Camilla and veggie and to veggies character arc

Hi!

Yes, it does. I want to talk about Vaggie in other metas too, so in this analysis I will focus on her relationship with Carmilla, since this is what you are mainly asking about.

Before I start, though, I am gonna link to you this meta by @hamliet, where she talks about the main message of the song:

You're gonna fight without gloves And when that push comes to shove Yeah, you just might rise above Long as you're out for love

If you love, you might rise above. So Vaggie, a fallen angel, regrows her wings by choosing love and protection over hate and revenge. The meaning is crystal clear. Love makes you worthy of Heaven. Just like in the finale Pentious ascends thanks to his selfless sacrifice.

This is the meaning of the song when it comes to theme and to the series as a whole.

At the same time it is not by chance this theme comes out so strongly in relation to Carmilla and Vaggie, as they are both tied to "love".

FAMILIAL LOVE AND ROMANTIC LOVE

Carmilla Carmine: So I, I'll be your keeper Do whatever it takes, I'll make the mistakes I'll keep you safe and keep this secret

Vaggie: So I, I'll be your armor Do whatever it takes, I'll make the mistakes I'll spend my life being your partner

Carmilla and Vaggie are set up as foils in episode 3, when they share the song Whatever It Takes. This ballad is a love song, but Carmilla and Vaggie express two different kinds of love:

Carmilla is singing to her daughters (familial)

Vaggie is singing to Charlie (romantic)

This is a pattern throughout the show:

There are two versions of More Than Anything - the first one is about a familial bond, whereas the second explores a romantic relationship

Sir Pentious gets redeemed after expressing his feelings for Cherri (romantic) and sacrificing himself for the Hotel Crew (familial)

So, Hazbin Hotel goes out of its way to celebrate all kinds of positive bonds: platonic, romantic, familial. All of these relationships are enriching and help people grow. Vaggie and Carmilla are two characters linked to this very concept, as they are ready to fight and suffer for their loved ones:

Both: Whatever we go through I know I~ (Carmilla: I'll be your keeper) (Vaggie: I'll be your armor) Whatever it takes (Carmilla: I'll make the mistakes) (Vaggie: I'll make the mistakes) Whatever it takes

They are both warriors, but fight for love. They are out for love. However, Whatever It Takes also highlights a major difference between them.

TRUST AND SELF-EXPRESSION

Scrambled Eggs is an episode about trust. This is true especially for Carmilla and Vaggie, who have opposite secrets:

Carmilla killed an angel

Vaggie is an angel

Throughout the song the conflict between Heaven and Hell is mentioned by Carmilla and is present in subtext in Vaggie's stanza, as she looks at her old home.

Both are struggling under the pressure of these truths and are confronted by a loved one:

Zestial: Carmilla, what troubles thou? Losing thy composure is unlike thee. Carmilla Carmine: It's nothing, Zestial, really.

Charlie: Vaggie, don't say that! You do so much! It's- Vaggie: I'm sorry. I'd… I'd like to be alone for a minute.

Carmilla chooses to open up to Zestial and tells her daughters how much she loves them. Vaggie instead closes herself off and refuses Charlie's attempt to talk. She is singing to Charlie, but Charlie herself isn't present to hear her out. Even when it comes to their respective secrets...

Carmilla says hers in the song:

Carmilla Carmine: I always thought that I would keep blood off my face But when that thing attacked, I had to act To cross that line and keep them safe But if anyone knew, then all of Hell would rise to war And who's to say who'd survive the fray? I might lose the ones that I was killing for

Vaggie only alludes to hers in the lyrics:

Vaggie: When I saw your face You made me feel like a stranger in a brand new place And it felt so good to be understood But there's so much I wished that I could say

Vaggie meets Charlie and feels like a stranger in a brand new place because at the time she is in fact a stranger in a brand new place:

So, Carmilla is able to express herself, while Vaggie can't. This isn't surprising, as Vaggie is basically a child-soldier:

Adam: Do you really think I wouldn't recognize one of my top girls just cuz you're out of uniform? You were on the front lines, I wouldn't forget a bad bitch like you. It's why I named you after the best thing ever. Vaggie.

She is brought up in Adam's army and is taught that love is conditional. She is one of Adam's best fighters, but the moment she makes a "mistake", she is discarded:

Lute: Sinful filth like you has no place in heaven.

This is why she feels Charlie will love her only if she is useful and never messes up:

Vaggie: I'm supposed to make your dreams a reality. I'm supposed to protect you. I'm supposed to never fail you. (...) If I can't help you, what's the point of me?

This fear of abandonement and rejection is also at the root of Vaggie's inability to tell Charlie about her past:

Adam: I guess I'll just tell little miss butterflies and rainbows that she's been fucking someone who's killed-- thousands of her people. I'm sure your relationship will be fine.

Still, despite her communication issues, Vaggie's heart is in the right place:

Rosie: If there's anything I've learned, it's that words are cheap, but actions, they speak the truth. So, what have her actions said?

Vaggie is a person of few words. This may be why she has less songs than other characters. Still, she lets her actions speak, so she is given a ballet lesson by a very talented ballerina:

DANCING THROUGH LIFE

Carmilla has a ballet motif, as her outfit resembles that of a ballerina and her two daughters are called after protagonists of famous ballets. So, it is only natural that she teaches Vaggie a new way to fight through dancing.

Vaggie was taught to fight with hate and anger. So, her fighting style is aggressive and focused on attack:

Carmilla: You leave yourself open with every swing. You fight like someone unafraid of harm, and this is what you'll take advantage of. Angels wield no shields, little armor and fight with reckless abandon.

Carmilla tells her she should instead dedicate herself to love, protection and defense:

Fuel yourself with the fear of losin' That somebody who's your reason to live Harnеss your heart and you can't help choosin' To fight with all you can give

Vaggie shouldn't just fight. She should dance:

She shouldn't hate:

I see you're driven by your detestation Your every step is stoked with animus You need a different type of motivation Or there's no way that you can handle this

She should love:

Out for love~ Love~ Think of who you care about Protect them and be out For love~ Love~

Vaggie listens to these teachings and applies them in the finale, in two ways.

She sings her love for Charlie in More Than Anything Reprise:

Vaggie: You've already done so much So many lives you've changed So many souls you've touched And in the end, if it's only me you've saved Charlie and Vaggie: There's something that I've been dying to say More than anything, more than anything Need you to know I love you more than anything More than anything

As stated above, Vaggie doesn't sing much in season 1, but in the final episode she gets a short moment to express how she feels to Charlie. This is in contrast to Whatever It Takes, where she sends her girlfriend away before she starts singing. More Than Anything Reprise shows Vaggie's progress when it comes to self-expression.

She follows Carmilla's advices while fighting

On a practical level she covers herself up in a battle suit inspired by Carmilla's outfit, she wears a harness on her heart and ties her hair:

Vaggie: I'm not used to fighting with long hair.

On a thematic level she reveals her wings and defeats Lute, when the exorcist threathens Charlie:

Lute: So, I'll spare you the pain of seeing your demon bitch die.

And Vaggie eventually chooses not to kill the other angel:

Lute: Do it, then. Correct your mistake. Vaggie: Seriously, you're pathetic, you know that? Ready to die rather than accepting mercy? No, live. Live knowing that you only do because I let you, the failure.

Vaggie is asked to choose between her hate for Lute and her love for Charlie and she chooses the latter. This is why the scene ends with Vaggie leaving Lute and flying to help Charlie. She is given the chance to get revenge, but doesn't take it. She is given the chance to hate, but she loves:

I know you're thirstin' for vengeance, Vaggie You're out for blood But you'll only stand a chance if you're out for love

This is important in two ways:

1- The macrochosm - Vaggie refuses Lute's ideals and defies her expectations. For Lute it is normal that Vaggie is going to kill her. After all, Vaggie is discarded because she shows pity to a sinner, which makes her weak. Still, Vaggie bests Lute in a fight, so she is now strong. It is only obvious then that Vaggie has snapped out of her foolery and is ready to kill. She can correct her mistake. She did not kill the cannibal child, but she can kill Lute. This is how Lute understands the world. And yet, Vaggie doesn't finish her off. By doing so, she moves away from the mentality Lute embodies. She is strong precisely because she can show mercy. Adam is wrong. Lute is wrong. Vaggie isn't out for blood. She is out for love.

2- The microchosm - Vaggie sparing Lute isn't just the morally correct choice, but it is Vaggie's first step into healing:

Husk: (To Vaggie) This one. Judges everyone and everything because she hates herself.

Vaggie hates everyone because she deep down hates herself. She despises Heaven and Angels because she can't forgive her involvement in the exterminations. So, Vaggie hurting Lute would be Vaggie hurting her past self. As a matter of fact Lute is Vaggie's dark mirror. She is who Vaggie might become if she gives in to hate.

A person who hurts others:

And herself:

Vaggie instead has to value her life, so that she can protect others. She must save others and heal herself. Only in this way she can be by Charlie's side. She needs to let go of self-hate to embrace a healthy love. Vaggie's arc is her learning self-love through her bond with the Princess of Hell.

Obviously this journey is just at the beginning and our Angel of Love has a long way to go. How will her story contiue? We can make some hypothesis, which once again stem from Vaggie and Carmilla's foiling. This is just a theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but Vaggie may have a secondary personal antagonist in Hell:

Why is that so? It's because Scrambled Eggs sets Vaggie and Velvette up as foils.

RESPECT(LESS)

Velvette and Vaggie are opposites in their interactions with Carmilla. Both girls are younger than the Dancer Overlord and could learn a lot from her. However, Velvette refuses any kind of mentorship and shows no respect:

Velvette: Mad that I acted respectless? Well, it's cause no one could respect this! You're long past trending! Sorry, bae, but I ain't swiping right! You've lost your relevance-

Vaggie instead comes to respect Carmilla and learns from her:

At the same time, both Velvette and Vaggie confront Carmilla about her secret:

Velvette: 'Oops!' Did I strike a nerve? 'Cause when I brought out the angel's head, couldn't help but observe, that your wrinkled face was turning red! And why are you avoiding war? That's what the guns you sell are for! Thanks to my being respectless, one thing I'm starting to suspect is You know why this angel's headless! Do you have a disclosure?

Vaggie: I know what you did on extermination day. We can talk about it inside, or I can yell about it out here.

They call Carmilla out on killing an angel and keeping this knowledge to herself. Not only that, but both argue that it is necessary to fight back to stop the exterminations:

Velvette: We found it during Extermination day. If these Holy Rollers can be killed, the game has changed. We can take the fight to them. The boys and I have come up with a full assault plan!

Vaggie: Miss Carmine, I'm here on appointment from the princess to enlist your aid in the defense of hell from the angelic extermination. We know an angel fell at your hands and we need to know how.

Still, Velvette fails to get through to Carmilla because she uses war rhetoric:

Velvette: Oh, I get it. So Grandpa is too pussy to fight, so I guess there's no point, right? Oh, what's the matter, Fossil? Too senile to make a real power grab...

She speaks of violence, strength and power.

Vaggie instead convinces Carmilla to help because she mentions the necessity to fight for loved ones:

Vaggie: We didn't pick this fight, but it's here now. And they aren't going to stop with us. You didn't see the look on their leader's face. With us out of the way, it's only a matter of time before they come for the rest of you. They won't stop until all of hell is wiped out, so you can help us make a stand here together, or you can stand alone tomorrow.

She speaks of protection, love and comraderie.

In short, Vaggie succeeds where Velvette fails. Of course, this is true for Charlie's group in general when it comes to the Vees:

Vox: My dear people! We at VoxTek Enterprises have always been at the forefront of innovation. And now, with this new oncoming threat, we are shifting our focus, to your protection. We are pleased to announce VoxTek Angelic Security is coming soon! Trust us, with YOUR safety.

Katie Killjoy: Breaking news - Extermination day is cancelled! Charlie Morningstar managed to fend off the angelic attack with more than just nice words.

The Vees make big declarations of how they are gonna protect the people of Hell, but in the end it is Charlie and her friends who fight for the sinners.

When it comes to Vaggie and Velvette specifically, it is going to be interesting if their foiling is expanded. If so, then I guess Velvette is gonna help Vaggie mature a little bit more, so that when our ex exorcist faces Lute (her nemesis) again, she is gonna be ready for it.

#hazbin hotel #vaggie hazbin hotel #vaggie #carmilla carmine #velvette hazbin hotel #chaggie #charlie x vaggie #hazbin hotel meta #my meta #asksfullofsugar #anonymous #hazbin lute

[mtkay13]

Lord Zhou and the Ghost Valley Master Cross-posting because i'm just that wild, hah! /jk More about the art below! --and a little talk about WenZhou and their relationship to power (+ some meta).

So hum, it is no secret that I enjoy a bit of "spice" in WenZhou's dynamic and at times am very prolific on my nsfw twitter account.

Collars and leash stuff have been on and off, and I was recently enabled for more of that by friends going wild about ZZS on a leash, etc, etc. LBR: I don't think you need any reason to go feral about that kind of stuff--but seeing how I myself seemed to regress to the state of a wild horny beast while making this painting, I felt like I may need to adress it a little. Here are some of my thoughts about WenZhou & power:

WKX and ZZS are both men who are/were in a position of extreme power. Both rose to that position of extreme power, but from very different starting points and motivations.

ZZS was, from what we know from how he describes himself in TYK and from how he behaves in QY, a very smart, cocky, ambitious kid, who probably deliberately sold his services to HLY to keep rising. There were probably ideals mixed in that, but point is, ZZS desired that power, that influence, and was encouraged to reach it. Becoming a sect leader so young was probably a shock, but nothing indicates that this position wasn't wanted. ZZS also mentioned not having a physique as advantageous as ZCL's when he was a child; so he probably had to work hard to reach his goals. Point is: the power was desired and strived for.

WKX has, without a doubt, needed the power, without ever really showing any pleasure nor satisfaction in having it. Surviving in the GV =/= reaching the top; if anything, becoming the GVM put the largest target on his head--but it is likely that reaching the position of GVM was necessary for him to execute his plan (find the key, pull the right strings, obtain his revenge). WKX was a little genius who didn't want to study, and probably wasn't dreaming/aiming for power. Conclusion: the power was a necessity and a tool. Many various characterisation points/analysis/dynamics can be pulled from this, and it is quite interesting to explore how, later, their relationship to power can evolve, both re:the rest of the world and each other. For the following personal analysis, I also worked with the following points from the book:

ZZS admires WKX's strength and power

WKX seems to have multiple fantasies of control and domination

ZZS seems receptive to many of them (including the biting, the somno stuff, and the cnc suggestions)

WKX admires/envies/resents ZZS' freedom

ZZS has fun becoming a subversion of his past self (swearing, being gross, being ridiculous, being openly cocky)

WKX is a control-freak and is very patient

ZZS is a bit conservative

WKX quite the opposite

Now how does that bring me to ZZS on a leash for the GVM?

(note that this is my current conclusion, not the conclusion)

I like to think that on the one hand, ZZS is that man who sees himself as a man and enjoys a lot of things about masculinity. The power that he likes for himself, he also enjoys seeing it in someone else's hands--he likes fighting for it, but (and this is a very personal interpretation) I like to believe he gets the most thrills from being overpowered; because it shows how strong the other is, bc it subverts whom he is himself. The power he's fought to get, has had all his life, but ended up leaving him alone at the top, feels good when taken from him--or when there's someone strong enough that he isn't alone up there anymore. On the other hand, I feel like although WKX would benefit from relinquishing some control and power, he does enjoy using it in a personal, pleasurable way, rather than by necessity. While he probably likes toying with presentations, with appearances, and doesn't mind being perceived as the wife, as the more submissive one in their fake-traditional relationship play of husband and wife, having the power, holding the leash---simply out of pleasure and mutual satisfaction is, I think very cathartic and arousing for him.

But then, why precanon? For the aesthetic bc I'm a simp for TC!era ZZS. And because showing him so strong, so powerful, yet leashed, is kind of a reminder that... It's not about real power. It's not about who, between them, is the strongest, the most powerful, the winner or whatever. It adds that thrill, the aknowledgement that this is out of freewill and choice and pleasure, I guess.

On top of that, man, I'm sorry, but peak TC!ZZS right post-QY canon after he's become the most powerful man in the country but is completely jaded by what happened in the end? On a leash? For a man he respects?? ugh

Anyway TLDR; I think it's hot and all of that gibberish barely has anything to do with my actual motivations to draw this.

#tian ya ke #zhou zishu #wen kexing #tyk #wenzhou #zzs #wkx #meta #qi ye

[bronzeagepizzeria]

A COMPREHENSIVE DEFENCE OF EVERYTHING TENTOO (PART 1)

Because unfortunately there’s a lot of stuff out there to refute.

so i guess a lot of people are watching doctor who right now because of good omens. and that, for some reason, means the tags are being constantly subjected to Certain tentoo takes so...it's meta time.

in this meta, i'll be rehashing how, exactly, tentoo is the doctor, and answering some other commonly posed objections to the pairing that is tentoo x rose.

But he's not the Doctor! Rose ended up with a copy!

First things first. The entire show revolves around the philosophical concept of Cartesian Dualism--the idea that the soul/spirit/mind has an entirely separate existence from the physical body. This is the basic principle of regeneration; when the Doctor regenerates, every organ, every cell in his body changes, and yet he remains the same man. What makes the Ninth Doctor the same man as the Tenth Doctor? There's something underlying here---the memories, the mind, the spirit. The body, has absolutely no significance.

In S6E6, The Almost People, we are introduced to the Ganger!Doctor. This is a man made out of like, slime, but he has the Eleventh Doctor's memories. Thus, he IS the Doctor. The Doctor himself says this.

In S9E11, Heaven Sent, the Twelfth Doctor is reduced to ashes millions and millions of times, and yet each time his body is 'recreated' or 'cloned', he remains the same person. Why? Because the memories persist. The soul lives on.

Here, have it straight from the horse's mouth.

"A man is the sum of his memories. A Time Lord even more so." - The Fifth Doctor, The Five Doctors, 1983

More evidence? What's the first thing the Tenth Doctor tries to do in Born Again to convince Rose that he really is the Doctor she knows?

DOCTOR: Very first word I ever said to you. Trapped in that cellar...Surrounded by shop window dummies. Oh...such a long time ago. I took your hand...I said one word. Just one word...Run.

Right. He shows her that he has the same memories.

Now cast your minds back to S4E13. What does the Metacrisis Doctor say when he's trying to convince Rose he's the same man?

Therefore, according to the lore established by the show itself, his missing heart has no significance to who he is. He is the Doctor.

2. But he's a CLONE.

Okay, first of all, he's not. He's a biological metacrisis, the only one of his kind. He has only one heart, i.e, he is not biologically identical to the Time Lord Doctor.

Second, even if he was, he would STILL be the Doctor. As established above.

Third, we see a Martha clone in S4E4, The Sontaran Stratagem, and she is a far cry from what we see of Tentoo.

3. Alright so he's not a copy. He's still only A Doctor! He isn't Ten, he's Half-Donna!

So. We've established that what makes a man is his memories.

If the Doctor had Donna's memories, he wouldn't be the Doctor anymore--which makes him ending up with Rose redundant. Here's the silver lining though.

Tentoo has only ten's memories. His own memories.

'How do we know this?' you may ask. Let's examine the script of S4E13, Journey's End.

(The Daleks spin around on the spot.) DALEK: Help me. Help me! DONNA: And the other way. NEW DOCTOR: What did you do? DONNA: Trip switch circuit-breaker in the psychokinetic threshold manipulator. NEW DOCTOR: But that's brilliant! DOCTOR: Why did we never think of that? DONNA: Because you two were just Time Lords, you dumbos, lacking that little bit of human. That gut instinct that comes hand in hand with planet Earth. I can think of ideas you two couldn't dream of in a million years.

Not very likely if Tentoo had her memories, right? This happens again, in the TARDIS Coral deleted scene:

DONNA: If you shatterfry the plasmic shell....you accelerate the growth power by fifty-nine. DOCTOR & NEW DOCTOR: We never thought of that.

There we go. Canon evidence that Tentoo does not have Donna's mind/memory/thought process. Instead, we see his mind being constantly referred to as that of his Time Lord counterpart.

4. So what exactly happened during the 'metacrisis' then? Why was Donna unable to sustain the change whereas we're meant to assume Tentoo is doing fine?

What happened in JE was a two-way metacrisis.

Tentoo is a biological metacrisis, i.e his mind remained the same, but the regeneration energy in his hand picked up on Donna's human biology and grew a human body. (His body is PART human, as in the ageing part. He'll grow old, and never regenerate.)

Whereas, Donna's body remained the same; she got the Doctor's mind, becoming the DoctorDonna. She is essentially the Doctor AND Donna, at this point in time.

At one point in JE, there are three Doctors ("There's three of you?") because as proved earlier, anybody that has the Doctor's memories, is the Doctor. There is: the Time Lord Doctor (Ten), the Human Doctor (Tentoo) and the Doctor Donna.

Since Donna was a human, she could not sustain the Doctor's mind alongside her own, which is what led to it burning up. It was simply too much for a human brain to take.

Tentoo, as proven earlier, does not have Donna's mind.

5. But he talks funny.

We are shown the Doctor picking up her mannerisms. The Doctor regularly picks up things from people he travels with. He "imprints" on Rose as a newly regenerated being and is shown to pick up on his companions' accents very often.

On a more analytical level, the "Donna mannerisms" bit is obviously comedic relief in an extremely action packed episode (evidenced by the fact that he literally never sounds like Donna again throughout the episode) and isn't meant to be taken that seriously. In every other scene, he is played by David Tennant, exactly as ten.

Tentoo is the Tenth Doctor, but human. In every way that matters, he is exactly Ten.

6. But he's Season 2 Ten! He doesn't have any of the character development Time-Lord Ten does!

Erm. Yeah. You've got to watch the show again.

7. Alright. Okay. If Tentoo is the exact same man, he would get bored of a life on earth with Rose. They'd never last.

Now we've got to address a key aspect of the Doctor's arc. (Keep in mind, when I refer to the Doctor herein, I only mean the Ninth and Tenth, the ones written by Russell T. Davies.)

The Doctor always wanted to be human.

The Doctor, and the Tenth Doctor in particular, wants to be human. It’s peppered here and there throughout the first four seasons, but if you watch closely, there’s this underlying current of wistfulness in him (“I’ve never had a life like that”; “The one adventure I can never have”), not to mention the entirety of the Human Nature two parter.

I think to some extent Rose made him feel human, and it’s his alienness that’s the big barrier in their relationship. He doesn't allow himself to love her the way he wants to because of the difference in their life spans. Because he's a Time-Lord, and he has a responsibility to the Universe, and he can't be more selfish than he's being already, keeping her with him.

She makes him want to be human, to be loved and to be free to love her as he wants to. She even helps him forget, sometimes, that he isn't human. Remember his expression in The Stolen Earth when he sees her again? He is so glad to see her. In that moment, it doesn't matter that they can never be together, because Rose loves him so much she came back.

I'm reminded of a quote from Buffy The Vampire Slayer:

I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man.

And then bam. The almost-regeneration. The crushing reminder that he is intrinsically different from her species, from what he aches to be. Constant and selfish and free. Human.

Giving Rose up to his other self was the most selfless, loving thing he could’ve done. His other self, who is uninhibited, unburdened from the responsibilities of a Time Lord—can and will give Rose everything she deserves.

8. Just make Rose immortal then! Happy endings all around.

Now you might say, the earlier problem could be solved simply by making Rose immortal—she’d stay with the Doctor forever and she’d never have to leave him!

Here's the thing. Being immortal is Not Good.

A constant theme throughout seasons 1-4 is that immortality is not desirable. There is a constant motif of “living too long”, whether it be from Jack, the Face of Boe (cough), or the Doctor himself.

Things are only precious and meaningful because they end—the human way of doing things? Fast, and bright, and temporary? It’s the right way.

One of the many reasons the Doctor loves Rose is because she’s human—it’s a big part of why he’s attracted to her in the first place.

Besides, an immortal Rose would mean having to outlive her family, her friends, everyone she’s ever known—who else has experienced that? Oh, yeah. The Doctor. I can’t imagine him wanting her to go through the same thing under any circumstances.

9. Rose would never accept him. She wanted the adventure too, not just the Doctor.

This is the Rose who instantly felt connected to a parallel version of her parents. Remember, this Pete and Jackie had NO memory of her, and yet, she loved them. Tentoo IS Ten.

She also constantly refers to Tentoo as The Doctor, so I have faith in her figuring it out just fine.

As for the adventure, being human doesn't mean they're suddenly going to become accountants or work in childcare or something. (Looking at you, Jenny Colgan.)

Canon (Big Finish) tells us that they both work with UNIT/Torchwood, so we know that they're out there, defending Pete's World together.

'What about the TARDIS?' you may ask. Well, the writer considers it canon that the previously linked TARDIS coral scene did take place, so we can imagine that they're out there, exploring a new Universe.

But even if they didn’t have a TARDIS, we only need to look to S1E13, The Parting of the Ways, to understand that Rose cares about the Doctor above all else.

ROSE: But what do I do every day, mum? What do I do? Get up, catch the bus, go to work, come back home, eat chips and go to bed? Is that it? MICKEY: It's what the rest of us do. ROSE: But I can't! MICKEY: Why, because you're better than us? ROSE: No, I didn't mean that. But it was. It was a better life. And I don't mean all the travelling and seeing aliens and spaceships and things. That don't matter. The Doctor showed me a better way of living your life. You know he showed you too. That you don't just give up. You don't just let things happen. You make a stand. You say no. You have the guts to do what's right when everyone else just runs away.

Of course Rose loves the TARDIS. She just loves the Doctor more.

More evidence? S2E8, The Impossible Planet:

DOCTOR: ....They were grown, not built. And with my own planet gone, we're kind of stuck. ROSE: Well, it could be worse. This lot said they'd give us a lift. DOCTOR: And then what? ROSE: I don't know. Find a planet, get a job, live a life, same as the rest of the universe.

Clearly, she doesn't mind settling down---not if it means staying with the Doctor.

DOCTOR: I promised Jackie I'd always take you back home. ROSE: Everyone leaves home in the end. DOCTOR: Not to end up stuck here. ROSE: Yeah, but stuck with you, that's not so bad. DOCTOR: Yeah? ROSE: Yes.

Here's another conversation she has with Jackie in S2E12, Army of Ghosts:

JACKIE: No, but really. When I'm dead and buried, you won't have any reason to come back home. What happens then? ROSE: I don't know. JACKIE: Do you think you'll ever settle down? ROSE: The Doctor never will, so I can't. I'll just keep on travelling.

"I can't." Not I don't want to, or I'm not interested---I can't. Rose is in love with the Doctor, and she knows at some level that the feeling is mutual. She also knows, he will never fully act on it.

But that's alright, because she loves him so much she's made her peace with it and with his limitations.

And instead of the typical female protagonist sacrificing things for her love interest trope, we get RTD flipping it on its head and letting Ten deliver the ultimate sacrifice, perform the ultimate act of love---letting Rose go.

By doing this, he's giving her everything he never could. It's beautiful. It's heartbreaking. It's the best love story ever put to television.

Let me conclude with this quote:

“Firstly, Rose is neither shallow nor stupid. She doesn’t settle for second best. She gets the person she fell in love with. And, as a bonus, he’s now able to spend the rest of his life with her, as she with him. Secondly, the very same person who experienced the heartbreak of losing Rose for the first time now experiences joy at the prospect of a lifetime in her company. In this full sense, the Doctor who lost, finally wins.” - Paul Dawson, Doctor Who and Philosophy.

10. But the Doctor and Rose ending up together is disgusting! They were platonic!

…..

Part 2 coming soon. I have loads more to say, but feel free to send in any other tentoo questions you want answered here. There's no such thing as too much meta!

#nothing brings me back to dw faster than tentoo hate #no one touches my boy #my meta #meta #rose tyler #tentoorose #tentoo #tenrose #tenth doctor #doctor who #ten x rose #tentoo x rose #timepetals #doctor x rose #ninerose #nine x rose

[starryeyedjanai]

this post has me thinking about steve and eddie falling in love with each other through writing fanfic in the 80s

because in the eighties before you could publish stuff online, you had communities that would send each other hand written fic, right?

steve and eddie both end up writing fic for spock/kirk

steve gets into it because he and claudia watch star trek together and they've been watching it for years when she shows him some cute fluffy fic a friend of hers wrote and he finds that he really likes it. maybe he starts off not knowing that he likes guys, but through fic he realizes that hey, he's kind of felt things about guys before that's similar to the stuff he's reading

and he gets enmeshed in this somewhat local community of fic writers and they all mail each other fic and give each other feedback and write on post it notes how much they loved reading it before passing it along to the next person

and steve has a particular writer that he's absolutely enamored with

the way they write, the tales they weave, it's all so good. they're funny and some of the spicy stuff they write is good and he's always so excited whenever he opens a letter and it's their fic. and he thinks he's like falling for some housewife from Indianapolis and he's a little embarrassed about it because they only sign their name as EM so he has no idea who it is. (he's also embarrassed because some of the spicy stuff claudia writes is also good, but he tries not to think about how his friend's mom knows so much nsfw stuff about what two guys can get up to)

but anyway, he keeps writing long detailed commentary about EM's fics and sending it along to the next person meanwhile when Eddie gets his fics back, he's like lovestruck at steve's comments on his fics because he really gets it - really gets what eddie was going for. he understands the yearning eddie's trying to capture and he offers little meta-analyses about eddie's fics and some of the episodes and eddie is also like damn i'm really falling for someone's wife, aren't i?

anyway steve doesn't write his own fic yet because he doesn't have the confidence in his writing ability but EM encourages him so he eventually does write fic and EM ends up being his biggest cheerleader and offers him help in areas where he thinks he struggles so they start mailing stuff back and forth to each other before it goes out to the larger group

and they start sharing stuff about their real lives and they both come to realize that the person they're talking to isn't a woman and isn't married like most of the women in the community are

and then they're collaborating on fics together and writing some of the best stuff eddie's ever written and he's falling in love and steve is too

maybe they eventually share their identities over letters, and maybe there's a meetup one day and their eyes lock as soon as they see each other and steve is nervous. he's nervous because he's kind of idolized EM for so long and he doesn't want to say the wrong thing. because writing him has been easy, he has time to think about what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. but talking in person is much more on the spot thinking which he's never been good at

but he meets him and eddie seems just as nervous, not nearly as eloquent with his words in person as he is in the fanfiction steve's been reading for close to a year now. but steve thinks he's charming and he's just as enamored in person as he was over the letters they've been sending each other.

on the ride home, claudia is chattering away about how nice everyone is and how nervous she was to meet them, but they're all so sweet in person. and steve is half-listening, clutching the slip of paper eddie gave him with his number on it

#steddie #steve harrington x eddie munson #steddie ficlet #stranger things #st ficlet #janai.doc #i have a thing for them falling in love before they ever meet #i think it's so sweet

[vidavalor]

Hi! Hope you're having a nice day! So, I love your metas, however, I confess the, idk tecnicalities? logistics? of a twist that they've been together the whole time still puzzle me. What would the narrative purpose of such a reveal be? Why and how would it be put into the story? I guess what I'm saying is I'd really, really like you to be correct but I'm sadly still skeptical that it could actually happen :(

Hi! Thanks for the ask. Hope you're having a nice day yourself. :) I'll give you a cheeky answer and then a real one, if you don't mind. @procrastiel also asked me to talk more about "no nightingales" and it fit into the second half of my answer here so this is kind of a combination ask response to both of you.

This gif below this paragraph here? Yeah, this is *not* the scene from 1.01 that, when decoded from their language, says they're having sex. I am not being sarcastic-- it is *not* this scene. This scene is in that meta (which is being edited, so, soon) because how could it not be, really, but *this scene* is *not* that scene lol and, yet, some people still find the idea of them sleeping together surprising:

Anon, this is, like, the third, joint Crowley & Aziraphale scene in Episode 1.01 and that is consensual, mutually beneficial, kink. One that both has a sense of humor and puts a smile on your face, as Mrs. Sandwich would put it.

Let's thought experiment a bit here. Let's say this is the extent of it. It absolutely is not lol but, for the experiment, let's say it is. Let's say that they've never taken each other to bed, they've never lent each other a hand, so to speak, they've never anything else you're thinking of right now-- nothing. The most significant physical contact they will have ever had pre-2.06 in this thought experiment is holding hands on the bus on the way back from Tadfield which, as we all know, isn't a sexual thing. Anyone can hold hands and it was a long week, but let's say that's it. They would then *still* have a sexual element to their relationship and the show gave you that information in 1.01. What is happening in this scene is a form of sex. It's already in the show that they are having sex. Yeah, they're having more and different sex than this and yeah, there is evidence of it and yeah, meta finished soon, but honestly... there is actually *a lot* of suggestion of Crowley & Aziraphale sleeping together. For now, we'll just talk about this scene here...

Crowley liking to watch is such a thing that it's now a recurring joke on the show. You don't think that "can I watchhhhh" while he follows Aziraphale around the neighborhood in S2 wasn't Crowley self-deprecatingly poking fun at the fact that he's got a bit of a voyeuristic thing happening? "Can I slither over and watch you eat cake?" in Good Omens: Lockdown?... Anon. Girl.

Crowley isn't just scientifically intrigued by Aziraphale eating lunch. He's not just super happy that his pal is having a very delicious meal. He is very, very, very sexually into watching Aziraphale eat...which is to say that he's into watching Aziraphale allow himself to experience pleasure, in the face of the repression of the Heaven mentality... and Aziraphale isn't just indulging this in a one-sided way where, for whatever reason, he lets his best friend of 6,000 years get turned on watching him have lunch but they don't talk about it or something and Aziraphale lets it go because he's got no one else to talk to lol. Aziraphale is equally into this. It's easy to see why and the more the show tells you about Aziraphale, the easier it is.

Aziraphale, into Crowley watching him? Aziraphale, who painted every damn room in his house the color of Crowley's pretty, Va-Va-Voom Yellow eyes? Aziraphale, who has scene after scene after scene after scene of looking irritated and jealous at literally anything else Crowley is ever looking at and calls beautiful? lol That angel is into the undivided attention of the Serpent of Eden, ok?

Crowley made the stars in the sky. He's a creator and an innovator and an engineer and an artist. He's been on Earth since the start and has seen basically everything beautiful humanity has ever made. He drives one of the finest examples of human ingenuity-- his beautiful Bentley. He's seen The Pyramids and watched Da Vinci paint The Mona Lisa and saw first-run Shakespeare performed at The Globe. He has an eye for art and beauty... and he's the original temptress. It was Crowley who tempted Eve into eating the apple and when Eve ate that apple and discovered the pleasures of food, she and Adam created that whole Biblical fruits of knowledge metaphor by getting up to some other forms of pleasure soon after, so, Crowley is basically responsible for free thought and pleasure throughout all of human history since the Garden of Eden... and what drives him out of his mind with want is Aziraphale enjoying himself.

I mean, enjoying his food. Totally just his food. Only his food, Anon. *slight smirk*

Aziraphale is absolutely into that. Crowley likes to watch and Aziraphale likes being watched in that way. Crowley looking at him like he's more beautiful than nebulae and statues of Gabriel is attention that is absolutely welcome by Aziraphale. Two of his favorite things at once-- a luxurious, scrumptious lunch and a turned on Crowley. Aziraphale's ideal day lol. That angel is watching Crowley watch him and loving every minute of it. It's as delicious as his actual lunch. Look at that little glance over at him. C'mon lol.

They do this from time to time. What do you think the results are? What would happen if you kinky-lunched with your best friend and how low are the odds that this is the only sexual thing the two of you have managed to get up to in the 6,000 years you've been on Earth? When one of you is a raging hedonist and the other likes to take beautiful things apart to see how they work?

This scene and its character knowledge is dropped into the middle of the first episode of the show with zero context and 10/10 no notes that was the single most hilarious way this extremely funny show could have ever chosen to do this but this is something the show chose to not only tell us about but to then provide context for in 2.02.

They gave kinky lunch an origin story, Anon lol. They were like also, you should probably know about Bildad at the ox rib special... you see, that hot lunch from 2008 actually started in *2,500 B.C.* when Crowley offered Aziraphale some barbecue and Aziraphale, who had never eaten before, ate an entire ox while Crowley lounged in the corner with a jug of wine and fantasized about being Aziraphale's dinner and before you yell at me, Anon, for sexualizing barbecue when really, sometimes, one just loves a good cookout, I agree with you.

Enjoying food does not have to be a sexual experience. I mean, I've had some pasta that could have given me an orgasm but... what makes ox rib cellar night sexual isn't how much Aziraphale is like omg food is delicious, I eat now, maybe forever, this is amazing. It's how he *looks an aroused Crowley dead in the eye while fully aware of how into watching him Crowley is and then goes back to enjoying his barbecue.*

The next day, he's cracking Crowley up by using the ox ribs in their whole plot to save the kids by having that be what Sitis pulls out of Job's ribs. Gabriel and the angels think sex is rib removal so Crowley and Aziraphale are jointly, from across a room, like the previous night coordinating a kind of pseudo-sex to fool the angels and Aziraphale puts the ox ribs into the pseudo-sex, joking with Crowley about their own sex-that's-not-exactly-traditional-sex-but-was-way-more-sex-than-this from the night before. He winks at Crowley and gives him two thumbs up when he sets up the ox rib bit of it and Bildad was like do not laugh in front of the angels do not laugh in front of the angels...

It was absolutely an intentional joke on Aziraphale's part, poking light fun at their night of figuring out that they have a pair of wildly compatible, mutually arousing kinks that can bring them some fun and showing they have a sense of humor about themselves-- something that is on display a lot, actually.

They're very aware of this and very funny about it and it has been going on since 2,500 B.C., Anon. S2 was just like Bildad at the ox rib special was the first time they had a form of sex, fyi, so yeah, that's why I would not be surprised if S3 has some flashback where they're semi-dressed in Aziraphale's bedroom or something and the implication is that they also have sex that doesn't involve food. The show is also already saying that they do and other scenes already suggest it but we'll save that for the main meta on this topic.

Ok, so my less cheeky, more technical answer :)

To be clear about what I'm saying here so we're on the same page about what S3 could potentially maybe bring... I'm not saying that there's a 25 minute long minisode that's nothing but them getting busy. It would likely be a bit more subtle than that. I say that and then also they did drop food kink into 1.01 and had that hilarious Newt & Anathema scene in S1 so who knows lol but basically, I think there's a flashback in S3 somewhere that is a little more direct about the fact that they've been sleeping together and for a long time. It doesn't need to be anything wild. It doesn't even need to be anything but suggestive of it. A friend of mine thinks it's my The Blitz, Part 3 theory but that they're in bed when Greta gets into the bookshop. All I know is that it's suspicious to me that the only room in the bookshop they haven't really shown us so far is Aziraphale's bedroom. Probably because there's at least some subtle evidence of Crowley in it and they're dragging that out a bit. The one thing I do think though for sure is that we get the vavoom-y first kiss and it being a bonkers amount of time ago, to re-contextualize basically all of their scenes that come after it, which will wind up being most scenes. I don't presume to be correct about details about stuff we haven't seen as I would not dream that I could predict the how, just maybe that I've got the overall vibes right at this point. I won't place any bets about how they'd work in a more direct implication of sex. I might on The Vavoom, though. I've got a solid feeling about that.

For the record, I wouldn't really consider them in bed a twist (as you might have gotten from the tone of this meta lol) but I can see how some people would. If your skepticism is coming at all, even in part, from a place of something like this just not frequently done on tv, I'd say, well, you might have also thought they weren't going to kiss, either, and *gestures in the general direction of Every and doesn't gif it because we've all been through enough* lol. The show is very, very queer-friendly and has a showrunner and actors who seem game enough so none of that is really an impediment to this.

Good Omens is telling its story out of chronological order, for the most part, for what amount to two main reasons: because it lends additional meaning to its themes and because it's fun as hell. The narrative purpose of adding additional context to Crowley & Aziraphale's relationship is to add to your understanding of it because your understanding of it is one of the main ways the show is conveying a lot of its themes. They are the story so adding context to the story to drive meaning is never is not without narrative purpose. By telling the story out of sequence, you wind up engaging your audience to focus more on what you're saying in every scene because you've taught them to look for the layers you're building.

Good Omens told you "no nightingales"-- had Crowley use nightingales and confirm that it's a word in his and Aziraphale's language-- in the same scene in which they showed you them kissing for the first time (and, for them, the worst time lol) to help bury the lede that this other scene earlier in the season is actually telling you about their first kiss. (By setting this up, they now have to show you it, suggesting it's in S3.) The other scene is obviously Crowley taking advantage of the fact that Aziraphale just asked him to play Cupid (and called Crowley romantic in doing so, btw-- "I don't think she [Maggie] knows how to conduct a courtship" implying that Aziraphale feels that Crowley does and that's why Aziraphale has run to his very romantic partner for help). Aziraphale is asking him to help the shop lesbians fall in love and Crowley uses the moment to demonstrate that romantic side by describing back to Aziraphale their first kiss as, to him, the epitome of romance:

Good Omens intentionally shows you stuff and then gives you more context that helps you understand it later. It spent two seasons getting you to know more about nightingales than Sir David Attenborough for the express purpose of eventually answering your question in 2.06. The question: do all these references to these romantic birds really mean that Crowley & Aziraphale are aware of them and the nightingales mean something to them or are the nightingales just a metaphor for them?

And even if a part of you was still going awfully interesting choice of metaphor since this is all romantic as all hell the whole time, you're still not sure until 2.06 if it's symbolism and metaphor and if the show is ever going to weave it totally into Crowley & Aziraphale directly, even if a few clues seem to suggest that they have been doing so all along. Like that "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square" is playing on the piano at The Ritz in S1 (implying one of them either asked or magically influenced the pianist to play it, implying that it's their song/a song with meaning to them/their parallel to Ineffable Bureaucracy's "Everyday", as we'd say after S2.) Most significantly, that Aziraphale in 1967 seems to be referencing it in a coded way when he tells Crowley that maybe, one day, in the future, they could dine at the Ritz, in a scene that's almost impossible to read as anything but a discussion about their relationship.

Cut to 2.06 when Crowley busts this out:

The show is now like remember when we taught you that nightingales are symbolic of romance? Well, we had to so that you'd understand that here is nightingales being used by Crowley as the shorthand word in their language for their romance. We taught you that dining at the Ritz is the act of trying to live live a little more openly with that romance, as well as meaning to literally dine at the Ritz, and that it's a reference to the lyric in "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square." Here's Crowley talking about it. Here's him using the word nightingales in a coded way and Aziraphale understanding him. Here's confirmation of this word existing between them as the word they use when talking about this romance of theirs long before this scene in 2.06 takes place. Here's confirmation that they are in a romantic relationship with one another. Crowley using "nightingales" and Aziraphale understanding him means that it means their romantic relationship in their language... which means they have a word for their romantic relationship in their language... which is to say that they have a romantic relationship.

People do have romantic relationships without having kissed one another before or without having sex but do beings who kinky lunch? Probably not. No nightingales recontextualizes the kiss in its same scene for us the way that Crowley lifting the magic for a moment as he walked away in Job's courtyard recontextualized what had happened earlier in that scene for Aziraphale. When Crowley got Aziraphale to see the crows were the key, Aziraphale understood what had just happened in the scene. When, in 2.06, Crowley says no nightingales, it's for us, this time. Not Aziraphale. He already knows how to speak their language. Even if it's the first time *you've* seen them kiss, no nightingales exists to show you that it's not the first time they ever have.

You don't have a word in a secret language unless you need it. You don't talk about a romantic relationship with one another that you don't have. Crowley pointing to Heaven the way he did when he had Muriel arrest him and saying no nightingales is Crowley saying their romantic relationship, at that moment, felt incompatible with Aziraphale going to Heaven. Heaven means no nightingales-- no romance. He doesn't know how they can continue *the romantic relationship that they already have* if Aziraphale is leaving.

2.06 is not their first kiss; it is probably the worst kiss they've ever had and they've had thousands. It was desperation in the failure of surface communication and double speak alike both seeming to fail them in the moment. Aziraphale touches his mouth with a shaking hand after Crowley leaves and thinks about how he wants him to come back and do it again because imagine loving your soulmate for six millennia and it's going to end with that kiss. This is not a show that's going to permanently break your heart here. Everyone basically already knows how it ends and it's sweet. It's called Good Omens. You really think a show like this is going to make these two adorable supernatural dorks that are its protagonists have had a depressing first kiss? Especially when they're already hinting at how they're going to reveal in S3 that it was really the complete opposite of one? And that it was a really, really long time ago...

If you look back on the nightingales references prior to this, right, you realize that this word has existed in their vocabulary for a long time. "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square" was playing on the piano at the end of S1 so nightingales was already in their vocabulary then. They were already involved romantically in S1. The scene as they agree to go to lunch ahead of the end of S1 has Aziraphale saying that they should go to The Ritz and when we get in there and see them at lunch, we realize we've already been here with them in the first episode and that the show chose to only tell us in the season 1 finale. They tell you things and then add in context to give them additional layers of meaning later.

They dined at The Ritz in 2008 for the first time in 1.01, doing what Aziraphale had suggested in 1.03, so there are nightingales in the beginning, middle and end of S1 pretty directly. Aziraphale having suggested this in 1967 means that nightingales already meant romance to them then. It's *why* Aziraphale uses dining at the Ritz to describe having that more open romance as something he would like-- literally and metaphorically. It comes from the song, which was first performed in 1940. It suggests that the references to this song for them probably tie to The Blitz in 1941, which we almost certainly have a Part 3 to coming in S3. It would be a safe bet "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square" is in it somewhere. Whatever happens then will also wind up re-contextualizing the "no nightingales" moment and adding additional meaning to it that we don't yet know but we know enough already to understand that nightingales = romance.

But when Crowley says no nightingales in 2.06, he frames it by asking Aziraphale to stop and listen, in a reference to the formation of their secret language in the Job courtyard. In a reference to those other birds-- crows-- that hid the goats and formed the basis of Crowley's name. Nightingales and dining at the Ritz might have existed for them since WW2 as words but there were other words that pre-date it and by framing the nightingales comment in such a way as to also reference Job, it's a reminder of how their romance isn't new. It's thousands of years old. The crows were nightingales, long before they ever admitted it, let alone got a song.

World's hottest, most romantic buddy comedy, I tell ya...

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