#meta tmnt 2012

[olibensstuff]

they can’t stand eachother they told me

#2012 donatello #rise leo #I NEED MORE FICS WITH THIS DYNAMIC #like I want to read one where they have beef but not meta bashing kind I just want them to have some kind of unspoken fued #ITS SO FUNNY TO ME #donatello #leonardo #art #tmnt #tmnt 2012 #rottmnt leo #rottmmt

[angelmichelangelo]

wanted to talk about my favourite scene in my favourite episode because i have a lot of feelings about it so here we go.

so it’s this particular scene in ‘of rats and men’ - anything to do with the rat king and i am there. he’s a really cool villain and i think the added bonus of him using solinher to fight the boys is really interesting but there’s this ONE scene that is always in my head when i rewatch it.

so after we see mikey hide away ice cream kitty we get a little comedic scene with him and his brothers + april and casey until splinter comes in, having just had the rat king invade his mind, he’s clearly unwell and weak, he goes to the freezer for some ice and a cheese sickle to which mikey tells him no and straight up slams the door in his fathers face to keep him from seeing the mutated cat in there.

to which splinter doesn’t take kindly towards.

remember, at this point, it’s not obvious to them that splinter is basically being possesed. he towers over mikey (ik he’s crouching here but the shot is really well done, pulling back to really emphasis how much he towers over these kids) and mikey just looks up in fear. again, splinter’s eyes don’t turn red straight away, he doesn’t show any obvious signs of change so to mikey, he’s suddenly aware of the fact that he’s pissed his dad off big time.

then, splinter strikes him, sending him across the kitchen.

we don’t see it, just a flash of red but it then immediately cuts towards the brothers reactions which again, i find interesting

it’s total shock. usually when one of them is hurt or down, we get angry reactions, something protective. but here they’re not mad. they’re just in utter disbelief that their father has just struck one of their own.

and i know splinters done this many times in the past but that all happens during training. it never occurs just because mikey is being odd. casey (and i know he was still grappling with his fear of rats here) actually recoils at this.

then we get a chase scene. again a little comedic just to lighten the tension but splinter is honing in on mikey. he wants to get to him, ignoring the other five teenagers who are in the room with them.

then we get these shots (the main reason i wanted to talk about this scene)

mikey is pushed against the fridge, exactly where he started. and you obviously can’t tell from screenshots alone but mikey is actually trembling with fear here. he’s hyperventilating and it’s not because he’s out of breath. he’s a trained ninja. he can go far longer than the little lap around the kitchen he’s just done. he’s positively terrified, and it’s not like the kind of fear in “invasion of the squirrelanoids” where he was making quips and making jokes to un-scare himself. this is a new fear because this is his father that is attacking him. he doesn’t even say anything during this moment. he just whimpers. he just trembles in fear until leo calls out to the others to “help him!”

then after splinter is pinned down, the rat king breaks through and we get reaction shots from the rest of the characters as they realise what has happened to their sensei.

i think it’s really sweet that april immediately goes to mikey, putting a protective arm over him. his eyes have shrunk to pinpricks (a neat little trick i really love that they show throughout and show when they’re scared or shocked) mikey doesn’t move or try to get back up, staying down with april it’s a nice moment (also we needed more of this duo! orange coded, blue eyed freckled friends for the win!!)

another little detail i found interesting was that after splinter seemingly goes back to normal everyone rushes to his side. april stands from where she’s crouched down with mikey and leo, raph and donnie are there to help him.

but mikey doesn’t get back up. he stays on the floor, perhaps coming out of his shock. he makes no attempt to reach his dad which.. breaks my heart little actually.

and as much as i love this episode, i really do wish it had some mikey + splinter pay off. we hardly see any moments of them together, especially since each brother gets their share of dad moments where he passes down some sort of wisdom, mikey gets a very brief “love yourself you don’t need to change” lesson in “mikey gets shellacne” and that’s it. we really were robbed of more of these two as father and youngest son. and ik all of them get attacked and scared by possessed splinter at some point but it clearly really affected ooor mikey here after being targeted in this one scene.

anywho. that’s my rant over. if anyone has any additions to this post feel free to add them as i’d be interested to see if anyone else is as crazy about this scene as i am lol

#mikey shaking and breathing heavy like was a cool addition #the writers didn’t fuck around huh #ANYWAY I LOVE THIS EPISOde #the rat king is the coolest #tmnt mikey #tmnt 2012 #tmnt meta

[fire-fira]

I am not sure how much you are into analysis but I want to ask. Do you think raph isn’t as good of a fighter compared to his brothers? because I have a feeling either he’s holding back when sparring with them over fear of harming them or he’s not as good as them.

Anon, you just made my day because this gives me an excuse to nerd out at length. (Though apologies that it took me so long to get this fully written out and posted.)

Disclaimer before I launch into it in full: to fairly compare Raph to his brothers I'm going to do a brief run-down of the three of them before breaking into the full details on him. A lot of this is built on extrapolation from details in various canons and at times might edge toward headcanon territory, though I'll be trying to stick with what's actually present.

With that out of the way--

Comparing Raph to His Brothers

So to start with, I can only fairly do this deep-dive by briefly touching on each of his brothers before getting to Raph himself. I'll say upfront that I think it's less a question of which one is the "best fighter" and more that they're each different types of fighters, each with their own strengths and weaknesses and which might land any of them in the position of "the best" depending on the circumstances.

Leo

Strengths: This is an extrapolation based on various iterations (2003, 2007, 2012, 2014/2016, ROTTMNT, 2023, Batman vs. TMNT, and a little bit of the IDW comics), but Leo strikes me as a tactician-- as the guy who can extrapolate to fifteen different possibilities for the outcome of a fight and fifteen steps ahead of everyone else on each of those possibilities. At his best he knows how to play to his brothers' strengths, put them where needed, and let them go to do their own thing. He's also persistent and willing to put himself through his paces over and over again until he 'perfects' what he wants to learn how to do. As a "traditional" (romanticized) example of a warrior, he is the golden boy of the family. Rise Leo might be a little less likely to get every step 'just so,' but most iterations of him aim to be as flawless as possible in terms of his combat skills. In his ideal world, he will never have a misplaced swing of a sword or inflict any damage he doesn't intend to. That depth of knowledge and highly-trained skill can be damned terrifying for his enemies if it's taken to its fullest extreme.

Weaknesses: His perfectionism and desire to get things 'just right' is a double-edged sword. In the 2003 series it got wrapped up in his PTSD and the need to never make a critical mistake again (which... didn't work out well for him-- hi, shades of Raph at his worst); in the 2007 movie it led him to think his efforts to learn how to be a better leader weren't "good enough" and kept him away from home for two years; in the 2012 series it led him to ignore critical injuries and try to bully himself into being 'better' (when realistically what he did during the farmhouse arc probably would have permanently destroyed one of his knees); in the 2014/2016 movies it led him to temporarily damage his relationship with his brothers by spilling over the worst of his internal perfectionistic vitriol onto them; and in Rise it at times has turned him into a showoff who'll act without letting the others in on his plan (which can backfire horrendously in a worst-case scenario) because if he does it without telling others what he's going to do, then he gets bragging rights if it works out like he planned. Underlying all this is what could turn into an unmanageable case of anxiety depending on the version of Leo and how personally stable he is, as well as how susceptible he is to ruminating over where he feels he went wrong. To say nothing of how many versions of Leo have a GIANT self-sacrificing streak when it comes to their families. Under the right circumstances-- and if someone really intended to make it hurt-- they could easily play all that against Leo and get him to freeze due to overthinking. (Though getting him to that level would take an extreme case and some severe emotional damage to weaponize his guilt.)

Speed: OKAY. Here's where things get a little more cut-and-dried in my opinion-- if a fight is down to just speed anyway. Leo might be pretty neck-in-neck with Raph in terms of speed, maybe just a touch faster due to (generally) being more lean-built than Raph. Leo's not a tank; yes he can fight in close quarters or mid-range and hold his own, but if he can then he tends to be 'slippery' about it. He's not going to batter away at an enemy if he can spin out of range before darting back in and dodging whatever hits he can. If it's just a matter of speed without any other factors involved, then there's a good chance Leo will win in a fight against Raph. If it's a question of strength and endurance though... Well, I'll expand further on that when I get to Raph.

Adaptability: This is something that is absolutely dependent on which version of Leo we're talking about and how hung up that version is on his plans without taking the general chaos of life into account. 2012 and 2014/2016 Leo both are guilty of getting so hung up on the idea that their approach to a combat situation is the right way that they fail to plan for the fact that their brothers' ways of doing things isn't their way of doing things. Which blows up in their faces spectacularly sometimes. IF it's a version of Leo who's more likely to fail to take into account his brothers' differing styles, then Raph might easily play that against him and deliberately do things Leo would find unpredictable (though probably not as much as Mikey, lbr). For versions of him that are better about knowing that his own approach isn't the only/'best' approach, then Leo would be better able to roll with whatever Raph throws his way, within reason.

Combat Style/Approach: Mid-to-close-range, tactician, and definitely NOT a grappler. Yes, his skills and training have him moving with muscle memory when he needs to, but even so, there's a split-second awareness of what his opponent(s) could do and instinctively reacting based on what he's met with. A lot of that means he has to be free to move and avoid getting held in place, or things might go bad quickly.

Donnie

Strengths: No matter which iteration of Donnie you're talking about, you're generally talking about an engineer who's able and willing to casually heft up and carry around a car engine with his bare hands. And considering (with a quick google search) it looks like the average car engine weighs anywhere between 300 to 700 pounds, that alone is proof enough that no one in their right mind would ever want to be punched by Donnie. And considering there are instances where he's able to temporarily support the weight of himself and his brothers (a couple of scenes in the 2003 series are what immediately come to my mind, but that's just my favorite iteration showing itself) it's proof that he has that strength not just in his arms. To give you an idea of just how much weight that implies he can lift, here's a size and weight comparison of some of the largest turtle species currently living.*

Notice anything? Like how... Oh... I dunno... a 4-foot-long Loggerhead sea turtle can weigh up to 400 pounds? Or a 3-foot-long Leatherback sea turtle can weigh 550 pounds on the light end? (Note: this is not meant to be snarky or condescending, just a simple statement of fact that all signs point to these boys are fucking HEAVY.) And that huge amount of weight relative to their body size seems to be pretty consistent among turtle species from what I've seen with my digging around. Which logically implies that the same holds true for these boys, and if we play fast-and-loose with the idea that we can roughly translate length to height... well... For general weight of the boys, I tend to assume at least 200 pounds, at least for those under and up to about 5-foot-tall. For the 2014/2016 set I might even suggest somewhere between 400-500 pounds-- but roughly comparing weight to size with that table of large turtle species, I'm probably severely underestimating their weight all across the board. Being generous, hypothetically saying all four of the 2003 turtles are about 240, that then means there are moments in the 2003 series where Donnie is temporarily lifting around 960 pounds, including himself. AND THAT MIGHT BE A SEVERE UNDERESTIMATION. Terrifying, right? So yes, Donnie is unquestionably strong as hell and maintains that strength by working on his various projects, and a full-force hit from him would land someone in a hospital-- if they're lucky. The other main thing working for him is that he's a tech genius. No, he's typically not as rigid or disciplined in his training as Leo is, but if he has access to tech and distance then he has a whole host of weapons and traps he can bring to the party (something which Rise Donnie excels at in spades). Raph's a much more physical direct-confrontation fighter, but Donnie has the capacity to turn entire environments against his enemies, depending on the means he has at his disposal.

Weaknesses: For better or worse, Donnie's primary personal strength-- the one he leans on above all else-- is his intellect and being able to puzzle things out. And again, he's an engineer: yes he can lift and move that terrifying amount of weight, but he's usually not doing it at speed. (Because let's be real, moving heavy and potentially very breakable machinery is not something you want to do quickly when you want to be able to use or repurpose said machinery.) He's not a slouch when it comes to his ninjutsu training, but there's a reason why the concept of Donnie pulling the 'I'm too busy to train right now' is a widespread fandom concept. It doesn't necessarily mean that he's not 'as good of a ninja', but more that he's not a 'traditional' ninja and has had to adapt things to his preferred methods. Yes he has a lot of physical strength, but he prefers to keep a distance from his opponent(s) if possible. Doing so, having that distance, gives him more time to plan and respond-- because unlike Leo, a lot of iterations of Donnie don't have that ingrained ability to read the possible actions their opponent(s) might take and respond on a dime (or at least not to the same level). Raph's tendency to brute force things-- something which Donnie technically could do but clearly does not like to-- might be somewhat unpredictable for him, especially because that puts Raph in close and doesn't give Donnie as much time to respond as he would like. All that said, Donnie could technically win a fight against Raph without his tech if he pretty much said to hell with fighting and decided to do an imitation of an octopus. At the very least he could probably hold him in one place if he was quick enough and managed to get Raph's arms pinned. And somehow kept him from walking. (It wouldn't be a dignified win, but it might still technically be a win.)

Speed: I'm gonna be honest, I do not think speed is on Donnie's side in comparison to his brothers. If he really makes an effort (rather than just going his own route and pursuing his interests) he'd probably be able to keep up with the others going at full tilt for a little while, but he'd probably tire out first. A lot of the work he does due to his areas of expertise is fairly sedentary, and frequently he needs to move with slow and deliberate precision. There's a lot of fine muscle control involved in that kind of work (especially if it involves maneuvering something heavy), but being able to consistently do that doesn't automatically translate to being able to do something similar at high speed. But that's okay, because if he has the distance and varied means of attack he needs, then he doesn't have to worry about keeping up with his brothers for an extended period of time-- it just has to be long enough.

Adaptability: If it involves tech or computer systems, Donnie's ability to adapt to a situation is unparalleled. Give him unrestrained access to an unfamiliar and shiny (and incredibly pervasive) system and he'll be able to make it seem like a tech apocalypse is targeting one specific person if he wants to. If it's a head-to-head physical fight though, it really depends on how desperate he is or how much breathing room he has (or both). If he's frazzled and panicky then there's the possibility he'll miss several opportunities or potential tools and, in a worst-case scenario, he might freeze. (An extreme example of this is how Rise Donnie gave up fighting the crab men when his tech failed, after all his brothers had already failed in that fight.) If he has time and space to think then he's practically unstoppable, but if he doesn't have that breathing room then chances are things won't end well for him.

Combat Style/Approach: Distance fighter, brain-over-brawn, could be a grappler if necessary but uncomfortable enough with it that it might work against him, might as well dub him a 'trap master' for the little surprises he might leave in his wake if he's feeling spiteful. He's a schemer, but not a chess master.

Mikey

Strengths: If there's one thing that can be said for Mikey it's the fact that most versions of him are innately gifted at picking up kinesthetic knowledge, to say nothing of the fact that he tends to be the most spiritually gifted of the brothers. In fact in several series (2003 and 2012 off the top of my head, though I'm certain it may have popped up in others) it's briefly mentioned that if Mikey really buttoned down and was completely serious about his ninja skills he would outclass Leo-- which means that he can naturally slide into the level of skill Leo has worked for years to achieve without even really thinking about it. If he wants to. And most of the time he doesn't want to. (Too much responsibility being that serious, so who can blame him?) However, his not constantly going at the equivalent of Level 99 in a videogame in fights isn't necessarily a detriment to him, because he has other ways to stay true to himself while giving himself an edge. Like being annoying on purpose. And knowing how to aggravate the hell out of his opponents until he tricks them into getting sloppy. Until he tricks them into giving him easy openings they should REALLY know better than to give him-- and would if he hadn't deliberately torn their nerves to shreds. If it's not obvious, I'm saying versions of Mikey like to play mind-games, and if they really want to they can be vicious about it and make it HURT. (Though again, most versions of Mikey are more invested in goofing off and playing around than being outright vicious or serious.) The point is, if he finds a mental opening that sticks, then how invested he is in winning the fight will dictate how serious he is about exploiting that weakness. To say nothing about how creative he can get when he really wants to be.

Weaknesses: The downfall of a lot of Mikeys is how distractable a lot of them can be. (I won't say this is a universal fact because I'm a big fan of there being variation among different realities, but a lot of Mikeys definitely being ADHD doesn't help. How well said version is able to compensate probably also varies.) So depending on the circumstances and the environment, Raph might be able to play that distractibility against him. (Buuuut that would require Raph to play mind-games, and most Raphs aren't the 'mind-game' type.) Plus, for better or worse, it takes a LOT to get most versions of Mikey to the point where he's ready to say 'Fuck everything' and throw everything he can into ending a fight right that second.

Speed: Mikey is, in my honest opinion (and based off most of the series and movies I've seen), the fastest of the brothers-- bar none. Which means if he tore off at full speed with the intention of skipping a fight entirely and just making Raph chase him, Raph probably would never catch him. Until after he wears down anyway. But if he zipped off and found a good enough hiding spot, then he could probably avoid Raph for a while. In a fight, because of his speed, there's a good chance that Mikey might be able to get in more hits than Raph, but that comes with the risk of getting in close to Raph-- and that can easily work against him in very short order.

Adaptability: Mikey's adaptability is through the roof. Most versions of Mikey, you can throw damn near anything their way and they'll roll with it in such a way that they land on their feet while their brothers are still scrambling for stable footing. There's also the fact that he's a very lateral thinker and able to apply concepts from seemingly unrelated sources to scenarios many others wouldn't even think to combine-- and he does so to his advantage. So yeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh, given enough room and space to work with (and not panicking), then there's a good chance Mikey's going to catch Raph off guard with something he'd never expect.

Combat Style/Approach: Close range, flighty, dart in-range to hit and then dart back out of range, mind-games and making his opponents angry to the point of getting sloppy seems to be his preferred tactic. He could be the most terrifying to go up against in a fight if he went absolutely stone serious, but 99.9999% of the time he does not want to and would much rather slip in some fun where he can. (If you don't believe me on that last point, consider that in the 2003 series I'm reasonably sure he has the highest body count of all the brothers, in the 2012 series he killed a kraang and wore the dude's skin on his head multiple times, and in Rise ALL of Dr. Delicate Touch and the frothing maniacal rage he has when angry. 'Nuff said.)

Raph

And here we come to the turtle in question himself, Raph. Hamato Raphael, Raphael Splinterson, Raphie-boy, take your pick.

Strengths: Raph is a TANK. Barring '87, this boy in most iterations pretty much makes it his mission in life to be the strongest of him and his brothers. He's also stubborn as hell and WILL NOT give in if he thinks it's important to stand his ground. Which means he can and will hold his ground and dig in long past when his brothers each have to retreat or fold; he can take the hits they can't and come out the other side still kicking. And what's more, if he feels the need to and is able to get up and be mobile, then he WILL hunt you down for as long as it takes and damned near nothing will stop him-- he is that. damned. STUBBORN. Let's be real, that combination is terrifying. Of course, naturally, this brings up questions of just how physically strong he is. I pointed out up in Donnie's section that Donnie is ridiculously strong, but just how strong is Raph? To answer that question, the infamous scene from 2007:

Just how much psi does it take to snap a katana? WELL, it turns out that finding out that information is really difficult (at least when I was nosing around and trying to find out). When I was doing my initial searching I found a video on facebook examining an anime scene (at the time-- back in September-- it was literally the only thing that remotely came close to answering my question that popped up) that claimed it would take at least 20,000 psi. Being that the person who posted that video didn't include any sources for reference, I'd take it with a grain of salt (especially since despite my best efforts I'm having a hard time finding that video again), but still. If-- for the sake of argument-- we assume that the 20,000 psi measurement is accurate for what it would take to snap a katana, that would mean that our boy Raph is capable of exerting that much force with each hand. And not just a brief spike of getting there either. No, for him to be capable of the force in that 2007 scene (again, assuming the number is accurate) then he has to maintain that force for longer than a second or two.

I don't know about you, but that makes this scene just that much more dangerous and intense in my eyes. It's not just that Raph could have killed Leo by stabbing him; it's also the implication that he could have easily torn Leo apart with his bare hands if he wanted to. So yeeeeeaaaahhhh, if Raph is able to get his hands on any of his brothers and is able to hold on, they're probably toast.

Weaknesses: Whoo boy. In most iterations, point blank, his biggest weakness is his temper. If he gets set off too thoroughly or if someone knows how to play it against him, his temper can make him get sloppy and lead to his defeat-- regardless of how ridiculously strong he is. It also means that, unless it's a version of him who has worked his ass off to keep himself in check, there's a good possibility that he might wind up doing things he'll regret when he's angry (and if someone really wants to twist the knife they can play that guilt and self-blame against him). If you go by 2003 and 2012 there's also his bug-phobia which can be played against him. (Even though 2003 Raph covers it with 'KILL IT WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE'.) If you go by Rise, then you DO NOT. EVER. WANT THAT BOY TO BE ALONE. And on a much more brutal note, going back to his stubbornness which is also one of his strengths

...there's a good chance that this boy might try to push himself past the breaking point if he feels it's necessary.

Speed: I've said before that I think Raph is pretty neck-in-neck with Leo when it comes to how fast he is, Mikey has them both beat in the speed department hands down, and Donnie is most likely to be the slowest moving of the four of them. If Leo has to deal with heavy weights while trying to move at speed however, Raph will have him outclassed due to having more practice in that department. For Raph to have a hope of keeping up with Mikey going full tilt in running away, Mikey would have to be carrying enough to weigh him down considerably. And while Donnie might stand a chance in trying to grapple with Raph, Raph having more experience in moving heavy weights at speed would probably mean Donnie would be better off trying to glom onto Raph like an octopus rather than outright grappling. So Raph's not the fastest, but he's not a slouch either.

Adaptability: As much as I love my boy, Raph is a tank, he's bruiser, he's a bulldozer who freely makes use of sharp and pointy things he can use to stab people with. Adaptability-- barring variation between sneaking in and out versus barreling in as loudly as possible to cause mayhem and destruction as a distraction-- is generally not in his wheelhouse. Given time and learning how to play mind games (and I don't doubt that an adult Raph could pick up and use the skill when he needs to) he'd probably become more flexible, but with where he's portrayed to be at in most iterations he hasn't gotten there yet.

Combat style/approach: Close-range, grappler, brawler, TANK. He WILL hold the line, he WILL dig in and hold his ground, he WILL be the wall and PROTECT with everything he has if he has to. He's also not above being outright brutally destructive when he feels it's warranted. And that "when he feels it's warranted" is key.

Details that affect the outcome:

Raph has a protective streak 500 miles wide. A lot of iterations try to be the wall for his family, the last line of defense when needed. He would sooner see himself hurt than anyone he cares about.

And it's not just his brothers, father, April, Casey, anyone-he-considers-family that he's protective of either.

Seriously, if someone pushes the protective button on this boy and his sense of right and wrong kicks in, he WILL get involved.

Raph cares and feels deeply; to him, family is everything.

You

have

NO IDEA

how much

this boy

LOVES

HIS FAMILY

or how much he'd tear himself up if he ever seriously hurt any of them. So the chances of him ever actually going all-out against any of his brothers is slim. (And the few instances in various iterations where he's come close it's seriously screwed him up emotionally every time. Like 2003 and the pipe incident, 2007 and the after effects of his fight with Leo, the implied guilt Rise had after he snapped back to his senses after reuniting with his brothers after he'd been alone, etc.) He might fight with his brothers, he might disagree with them from time to time, but overall he comes off as someone who firmly believes you don't ever deliberately hurt someone you should care about if you can help it. Which is backed up by instances of him panicking in various iterations where his decisions might result in his family's deaths, as well as the fact that he only really turns on any of them (think SAINW) if they cross the line of not being there for each other like he feels they should be. Some iterations might threaten to run off a lot, but he never will without a damned good reason because he loves his family too much to ever want to do that to them.

Final Assessments

Raph vs Leo: If it's in close and is just down to strength-- Raph wins. If Leo has the time he needs to scheme and play Raph the way he needs to-- Leo wins.

Raph vs Donnie: If it's in close-- Raph wins unless Donnie pulls off an imitation of an octopus and gets all of Raph's limbs pinned and holds on for dear life. If Donnie has the distance, time to scheme, and the means to set traps to his heart's content-- plus tranqs, no one wins against tranqs-- Donnie wins.

Raph vs Mikey: If Raph can get his hands on Mikey and keep him in one place-- Raph wins. If Mikey plays Raph like a fiddle with his mind games and stays out of reach-- Mikey wins.

Raph vs the three of them together: Well shit, that'd be a losing proposition under the best circumstances unless the goal was to try to out-stubborn them at something. 10/10 if he had to, Raph would keep dragging himself along even if all three of his brothers were hanging on to him to try to keep him from reaching his goal. (And if Raph hasn't exploited that fact during some wild-as-shit game of theirs, then Casey Jones is the queen of England.)

Raph vs his guilt if he actually seriously hurt them: Instantaneous loss that Raph would probably have a hard time ever forgiving himself for.

So do I think Raph is as good a fighter as his brothers? Yes.

Do I think he's holding back so he doesn't hurt them? Also yes.

Do I think anyone he went up against if he didn't hold back would be thoroughly screwed? Emphatically YES.

-----------------------------

*The site I got the turtle size table in Donnie's section is [here], if anyone wants further details on sea turtles.

#Raphael #Leonardo #Donatello #Michelangelo #TMNT #TMNT 2003 #TMNT 2007 #TMNT 2012 #TMNT 2014/2016 #TMNT & Batman #TMNT IDW #meta #this is SO DAMN LONG

[mrsblackruby]

I just don’t understand how so many people hate 2012 master splinter in the TMNT fandom after the episode entitled “Lone Rat and Cubs” which came out in 2017 in the the last season (Season 5) like my guy of course he’s fucked up a little bit after all he went through to keep his kids alive in the show he had to protect them from the kraang and the humans he knows he’s imperfect and he’s trying his best I feel so bad for him people are usually so harsh in fan works whenever they mention 2012 splinter they don’t consider all 2012 splinter lost in the process when he came to America. Idk I just think it isn’t fair to his character in the story.

#2012 splinter #master splinter #meta #tmnt #tmnt 2012 #it’s okay to not like characters I’m just venting

[theresistanceneverquits]

Okay I ramped myself up

I’ve heard people say this was stupid of Leo to do. “Why didn’t he jump off too??? He could have done anything else”

This is not the action of a man who has the time to sit and think out a plan. I know that’s what Leonardo usually gets to do, but in this moment he only has pure instinct to act on.

And that’s another point. I don’t see this as Leo being suicidal or not caring about himself in the least. This is a person who’s been shown in the series to have his #1 priority no matter what be to save his brothers. So when he’s faced with a split-second decision, base instinct kicks in and that’s what he does.

Which. Another thing. His solution to save his brothers’ lives was to sHOVE THEM OFF A BUILDING. That’s not exactly a better prospect than what he left himself with. He’s crying in this scene, and I fully believe it’s because he’s certain that they’re not going to survive this. But he’s their brother. He’s going to give them whatever ghost of a chance he can.

I’m sick of hearing that Leo made a stupid decision here, because the fact is…this wasn’t a decision. It was plain instinct, and one which he knew wasn’t going to work. But he “does whatever it takes to get his ninjas through,” and he’s going to go out doing just that.

#tmnt #tmnt 2012 #leonardo hamato #Leo tmnt #mutant apocalypse #tmnt meta #this is my favorite scene in this show #suicide mention #also people thinking Leo is suicidal in general in 2012 cuz he’s sacrificial ticks me off #s4 space arc is a completely different story #but it is not suicidal to be a self-sacrificial hero #anyway

[superbeeny]

Hot take: in fiction, protagonist trios are at high risk of being unbalanced, where it’s clear one dynamic within the group is the closest emotionally or have the two strongest personalities (often both), and it’s hard to avoid one member turning into a third wheel.  Four temperament ensembles tend to be more more stable, though not necessarily because they have less conflict, but it’s just that if two members are butting heads, the other two can just watch in shared astonishment and/or frustration.  

(Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  I’m talking about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.)

#teenage mutant ninja turtles #tmnt #rottmnt #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles #tmnt 2012 #tmnt 2003 #tmnt 1987 #tmnt fred wolf #tmnt movie #hamato leonardo #hamato raphael #hamato michelangelo #hamato donatello #hamato family #hamato clan #tropes #fiction #media #meta

[qiralync]

Yknow I actually hate the they (Karai and Leo) are genetically related argument almost as much as I hate the Leor@i isn't incest argument, because it feels like it just discredits adoption. The turtles became his sons because Splinter adopted them, Karai is their sister because Splinter adopted them not because they share genetics. Making it all about genetics just feels like it devalues the relationship. As if it only matters if they are biologically related.

It's why I believe that the human DNA that mutated the turtles was the pet shop worker.

#tmnt 2012 #tmnt #meta #anti leorai #leo #Karai #Splinter

[t1rkb]

Alright I'll list all the Fandoms I can be involved in

Go-To Fandoms (Shows or Movies I generally will go back too because I love them)

Gravity Falls - Isn't It Obvious?

Amphibia - Same as Gravity Falls

The Owl House - Got me back into cartoons

HTTYD - Race to the Edge is the Best

Tales Of Arcadia - The Movie may have killed off the franchise but it HASNT KILLED MY LOVE FOR THE SHOWS YET

Tmnt 2012 - I mean there's not much to explain here

Smg4/Glitch Productions - Yeah sure they ain't as good as they used to be but they're still pumping out stuff

BFDI - OSC in general, First fandom I truly joined

Other Fandoms (Shows and Movies I like but not enough to dedicate most of my time online to)

Big City Greens - Fun and Episodic

Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur - Definetly Great and recommend

Bluey - Stiiiill getting through season 1 and MY DISNEY PLUS IS EXPIRING THIS MONTH AAAH

Tangled the Series - Same with Bluey

The Pokémon Anime - I can't really play many pokemon games with what I have

Boss Baby - I despise the fact I love this franchise

Wish - Same with Boss Baby

Rise of the Guardians - Underrated Gem

Rise of the TMNT - I miss this show so much

Ducktales 1987/2017 - Still getting through 1987 but Love 2017

The Ghost and Molly Mcgee - WHY did they revoke s3?

Captain Underpants - Just the show and movie... sorry never read the books and comics

Total Drama - yes

Hazbin Hotel - Fucking Yes

#the owl house #gravity falls #tmnt 2012 #amphibia #tales of arcadia #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles #big city greens #boss baby #disney wish #bluey #rise of the guardians #moon girl and devil dinosaur #the ghost and molly mcgee #tangled #smg4 #glitch productions #the amazing digital circus #murder drones #meta runner #sunset paradise #battle for bfdi #bfdi #battle for dream island #ducktales reboot #pokemon #race to the edge #httyd #captain underpants #total drama #hazbin hotel

[boy-with-the-demon-blood]

AND ANOTHER THING

people who bash on 2012 raph need to get some fucking perspective. like. okay so in the middle-end of s2 there’s an interaction that kind of boils down all of raph’s issues into a few sentences.

also this whole analysis is coming from someone who just finished season 2. so if anything changes by the end of the series rip

raph just yelled at casey until he left because he was worried he would get hurt and he doesn’t know how to express his feelings, and then this happened:

mikey: you can’t do that dude! people have feelings! real, squishy feelings!

raph: well i’m not “people”

raph shut down all emotional responses to anything except anger because he was raised in an environment where showing any weakness was basically giving a neon sign inviting ppl to attack. and bc he did this, he’s fallen into the fallacy that everyone else should too, bc it protected him. “why should i have to deal with other people’s feelings? no one ever cares about mine!” is his mindset and it’s. really really damaging. to himself and everyone around him.

at first when i realized this i was like “aw he needs a hug” but no he needs someone to respond to his emotions decently. he needs to be given the benefit of the doubt and that’s really fucking hard when he reacts to vulnerability with anger. if someone tried to approach him with these problems bluntly he’d react by telling them to eat shit and die. like every time leo or splinter brings up raph’s anger issues, he storms out and doesn’t come home for hours. and he still doesn’t apologize or realize that if he wants to resolve his issues, it’s gotta be on him at least a little bit. sure, the others using every bit of vulnerability he shows to pick on him doesn’t help, but that’s just bc they give as good as they get.

he needs a kirishima to his bakugou, or an iroh to his zuko, and he just. doesn’t have one. he’s not as lucky as them and it sucks. and that’s what’s heartbreaking about his character. he’s realistic about his reaction to complex trauma, but he never gets the chance to heal from it. venting to spike was his one healthy coping mechanism and now spike is slash and slash tried to kill him and his brothers.

also splinter doesn’t help anything with his style of “parenting.” he’s like “why is my second son so rebellious and angry? surely not bc i regularly ‘make an example out of him’ and refuse to give actual real advice on how to manage feelings of fear and inferiority. it’s just that something is inherently wrong with him.” he raised the turtles to be ninja. he didn’t raise them like children. his only point of reference for children up until he had the turtles was his experience training other ninja. he raised them like any other ninjutsu master would teach his students. the difference is that those students had parents they went home to. having the person you train with and inevitably get hurt because of be the same person you call “father” is gonna mess up anyone’s head.

anyway all that to say: i project onto 2012 raph like a goddamn movie screen.

#2012 tmnt #tmnt 2012 #2012 raph #meta

[shantechni]

Don't even get me started on Greg Cipes voicing Shelldon-

#and ice cream kitty omg #feels especially meta since i went back to finish the 2012 series before starting rise #tmnt 2012 #tmnt #rottmnt #rise of the tmnt #tmnt chompy #rise shelldon #rottmnt shelldon #grep cipes #tmnt mikey #tmnt michelangelo #teenage mutant ninja turtles

[stormtail221]

Leonardo (2012 and Rise) angst from a leadership perspective

I have been in CAP for 2 years, and one of the core curriculums of this program is the study of leadership as both a science and an art. So naturally, when I see characters thrust into a leadership position, I immediately start foaming at the mouth and planning how I can use what I know to create the maximum amount of angst for the given scenario. 

And when I saw both of these Leos in their respective leadership positions (and these can apply to Rise!Raph too), I began to plot their imminent demi- I mean the struggles they might face as leaders of a team. There are numerous elements that go into being an effective leader, and if anyone wanted a comprehensive list of those, I am sure it wouldn’t be hard to find. However, this is a compilation of the leadership characteristics that I believe can be the most angsty. (I did not go through over 2 years of leadership training to write angst for these characters. It is merely an added benefit)

Do with this what you will. 

The first characteristic of leadership that will be covered is technical competence. According to the wonderful internet, Technical Competence is, “the knowledge and abilities required to apply specific technical principles and information in a job function or role.” 2012!Leo maybe be able to say that he does not have all the answers, like his Rise counterpart, but someone who has been in the position of leader for as long as 2012!Leo must maintain a certain level of technical competence as leader, because it is his duty to ensure that, even if he doesn't have all the answers, he does have most of them. Technical competence is a vital part of being a leader, because your team doesn't have to look to you for all the answers, but you still must be competent enough that your team can look to you for knowledge and guidance in a time of crisis or danger. I imagine Leo likely has to train and study more than the others, because he has to have the technical and mental ability to guide them through the missions when they fail. He doesn't need to have all the answers, or make all the plans, but he does need to be competent enough to be someone for them to fall back on when they need to. He must be someone that the team can look to, and rely on. He must be the back up if all else fails, and ready to step in when the team stumbles. This standard likely creates a level of isolation, because they can rely on him, and he in theory can rely on them, but even then, there is a separate expectation that Leo has to uphold, and relying on his team too much might make him appear weak or untrustworthy.

Leo must also, as a leader, be willing to make the tough calls. I know this is touched on in the show, but I’m going to go into this a bit more. Being a leader means taking advantage of a situation and making most, if not all of the choices during a mission or even out of it. Leo is responsible for making the difficult choices and carrying the team through those difficult choices even when he doubts himself or feels like failure is imminent. If Leo shows any signs of doubt or fear, the team will sense this, and their performance will suffer as a result. He has to be able to look at a situation and make the appropriate call, sometimes in a split second. He can't risk hesitating or taking too long to make a choice, or else it might already be too late. He must be able to make the tough calls, and more importantly, make the right call in a timely manner. And this is tricky, because in a high risk situation, you might have to make an incredibly difficult call in only a minute with only half of the information that you need. This one has the most potential for angst. I mean c’mon. 

Another key part of leadership is the importance of finding the balance between being lax and being serious and strict. Now, due to this, both Leos find themselves in a unique position. Because this isn't just their team, it's their brothers. So there is a line that must be balanced between serious and playful, and should Leo veer to far into one of the other and lose that balance, he could not only risk his relationship with his brothers (they think he is being too hard on them and thinks himself above them bc he bosses them around too much), but also their lives (he is a bit to silly and his recklessness ends up costing their lives or their objective). It can be an extremely difficult line to balance on, especially when you are close with the people you are supposed to be leading. Not only can there be major consequences if you mess up or over correct, but you worry constantly about if you are doing it right, and if you have the right balance. 

Another key thing is Servant Leadership, which is the practice of leading by serving your team and leading by example. This practice includes putting your own team first and ensuring your safety and security before your own. However, you cannot be a good servant leader without first taking care of yourself. This may seem somewhat contradictory, but, of course, that is where the angst comes in, because our beloved stupid Leos will indubitably take this the wrong way, and completely ignore their own personal health and sanities for the sake of the team. By believing they have to be independent entirely, and having the belief that they can’t rely on their team lest they show weakness, they try to take care of matters by themselves so as to not burden others. This is of course not how servant leadership should be executed, but having minimal training in leadership and sort of being expected to figure it out on their own, that might simply be how they interpret it. 

In Conclusion, these bad boys can fit so much angst in them.

#rottmnt #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles #tmnt #hamato leonardo #leonardo tmnt #2012 tmnt #leo 2012 #rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles fanart #meta #character study?? #leadership #angst and pain time boys #teenage mutant ninja turtle #donnie tmnt #rise raph #2012 leonardo

[angelmichelangelo]

regarding my last post here i just wanted to add the actual video of the scene just to really emphasis how frightened he was during that attack. greg cipes nailed this role anyway but i’ve never heard any of the other turtles sound this terrified before

#bro was sweating #NO BUT REALLY HE SOUNDS SO SCARED??? the rat king really was such a spooky character and they show that so well #tmnt 2012 #tmnt mikey #tmnt meta

[fire-fira]

So I just saw [this post] focused on Tang Shen, and the comment about her name got me thinking.

And because I'm a giant language nerd and know where to look, I decided to look up the parts of her name.

Tang is a Chinese surname and can either be in reference to the Tang Dynasty, or it can specifically be the Cantonese romanization of Deng-- which refers "to the ancient state of Deng, which existed during the Shang and Zhou dynasties in what is now either Henan or Hubei province."

Shen is a Chinese masculine name (which makes it an interesting choice for her) that apparently means 'deep thinker', 'deep thought', or 'spirit'.

All of this is to say, if we take her name as the guiding point, Shen should be Chinese. Whether that means she was an immigrant to Japan, or if she's mixed Chinese and Japanese, or any other number of possibilities is up for interpretation.

But there you go TMNT fandom: Shen should be Chinese.

#Tang Shen #TMNT #meta #names #language #linguistics #I don't speak any variety of Chinese #so if someone knows better or more then the input would be appreciated #yes I'm a language nerd #TMNT 2003 #TMNT 2012 #ROTTMNT #I could tag more but I don't want to spam tags

[los-ninos-tortugas]

While 03 tmnt had its fair share of creepy or horrifying moments that I think were done really well, I think the 3D animation of 2012 tmnt really does lend itself well to the darker aspects of the show, especially when it comes to the designs of the mutants. Now I don’t love every single mutant design, but I do think they all do manage to get the point across that the mutagen is a threat to humanity, that it is scary and horrifying in the way it completely changes you, and that all things considered, Splinter and the turtles were lucky to turn out as humanoid they did. Splinter still maintained his mental faculties and the turtles gained sentience whereas for everyone else it’s pretty 50/50 if you’ll remain sane or not. I like that 2012 seems to really know what it’s going for when it has these moments where it says “hey, it’s not all fun and games”

#katnip talks #teenage mutant ninja turtles #tmnt 03 #teenage mutant ninja turtles 2012 #2012 tmnt #turtle watching 🐢 #analysis #meta

[metalatias5]

Some new sketches, one Donnie and a pair of Stringbeans, one of which has shapeshifted into a Tricerafox

#the owl house #TOH #Stringbean #Palisman #Snakeshifter #Tricerafox #Trifox #shapeshifter #TMNT #2012 #2k12 #teenage mutant ninja turtles #Donnie #Donatello #Meta #MetaTheTrifox #MetaLatias #Metalatias5

[temunitu]

sigh

i feel like there are two extreme opinions on the mikey raph 2012 situation. like raph loves mikey without a doubt and he definitely isnt an abuser, that's a pretty extreme title to give him, but it feels like his defenders also completely ignore all the moments raph was a total dick. yes he can show physical affection, be protective, and will occasionally comfort him, but also mikey gets hit so much he visibly flinches, he internalizes every hurtful thing they say to him he is visibly hurt by theses words (second episode in the pilot is a good early example of that) and is why we got episodes where he puts mutagen on himself to be cooler and why he runs away at one point. and of course he is canonically disabled which never seems to be mentioned in either side.

both of these can exist, raph CAN be really nice too mikey but he can also be really mean. and also im tired of people saying that's how siblings are and if anyone disagrees is an only child like no i have siblings and i deal with them everyday and we don't fight to the point where we will flinch at each other. i dunno i guess my point is this argument is hella annoying, both sides will ignore either the positives or the negatives when both examples exist in the same show.

raph loves mikey, he has anger issues and mikey admittedly also sometimes intentionally pushes his buttons, but raph hurts mikey a lot for no good reason. both of these coexist. but not that it matters because the show refuses to acknowledge it since it isn't exactly written well

fair point, fair point. it’s unfortunate because the entire premise of their dynamic could’ve been really interesting to explore. it might be the circles i’m in or the shows i watch, but nothing i’ve seen has ever tried to tackle anything like “siblings grew up to learn unhealthy coping mechanisms that unintentionally bother those around them, and have a talk with said sibling to reach an understanding.”

i get why some might be upset, at either side (like if someone identifies with mikey, they might hate raph; or if they identify with raph, they’d feel vilified).

at the end of the day, i don’t think the writers really realized all the negative connotations going into it. they were just getting a paycheck.

#ask #anon #tmnt 2012 #tmnt 2012 raph #tmnt 2012 mikey #tmnt meta