#or jason and steph !!!!!!!! or another positive but complicated dynamic (he has a lot of those)

[boyfriendgideon]

as yr favorite local jason todd fan sometimes i get so fed up with the apparent inability of most dc comic writers to write a class conscious narrative about him.

and yes, i know that comics are a very ephemeral and constantly evolving and self-conflicting medium.

and yes, i know they’re a profit-driven art medium created in a capitalistic society, so there are very few times where comics are going to be created solely out of the desire to authentically and carefully and deliberately represent a character and take them from one emotional narrative place to another, because dc cares about profit and sometimes playing it safe is what sells.

and yes, i know comics and other forms of art reflect and recreate the society within which they were conceived as ideas, and so the dominant societal ideas about gender and race and class and so on are going to be recreated within comics (and/or will be responded to, if the writer is particularly societally conscious).

but jesus christ. you (the writer/writers) have a working class character who has been homeless, who has lost multiple parents, who has been in close proximity to someone struggling with addiction, who has had to steal to survive, who may have (depending on your reading of several different moments across different comics created by different people) been a victim of csa, who has clearly (subtextually) struggled with his mental health, who was a victim of a violent murder, and who has an entirely distinct and unique perspective on justice that has evolved based on his lived experiences.

and instead of delving into any of that, or examining the myriad of ways that classism in the writers’ room and the editors’ room and the readers’ heads affected jason’s character to make sure you’re writing him responsibly, or giving him a plotline where his views on what justice looks like are challenged by another working class character, or allowing him to demonstrate actual autonomy and agency in deciding what relationships he wants to have with people who he loves but sees as having failed him in different ways, or thinking carefully about what his having chosen an alias that once belonged to his murderer says about his decision-making and motivations, you keep him stuck in a loop of going by the red hood, addressing crime by occupying a position of relative power that perpetuates crime & harm rather than ever getting at the root causes, and seesawing between a) agreeing with his adoptive family entirely about fighting nonlethally in ways that are often inconsistent with his apparent motivations or b) disagreeing and experiencing unnecessarily brutal and violent reactions from his adoptive father as if that kind of violence isn’t the kind of thing he experienced as a child and something bruce himself is trying to prevent jason from perpetuating. because a comic with red hood, quips, high stakes, and familial drama sells.

it doesn’t matter if it keeps jason trapped, torn between an unanswered moral and philosophical question, a collection of identities that no longer fit him, and a family that accepts him circumstantially. it doesn’t matter if jason’s characterization is so utterly inconsistent that the only way to mesh it together is to piece different aspects of different titles and plotlines together like a jigsaw. it doesn’t matter if you do a disservice to his character, because in the end you don’t want to transform him or even understand him deeply enough to identify what makes him compelling and focus on that.

and i love jason!!!!! i love him. and i think about the stories we could have, if quality and art and doing justice to the character were prioritized as much as selling a title and having a dark and brooding batfam member besides bruce just to be the black sheep character are prioritized. and i just get a little sad.

#jason todd #jason todd meta #red hood #batfam #batman #dc comics #comic analysis #classism #tw: csa mention #maybe someday half of the most intriguing and nuanced aspects of his character will be touched upon #red hood outlaw 51-52 had some cool moments wrt jason + class + hometown friends + systems of power but. that was a two issue arc #and even then it was admittedly messy #GOD i want him to be three dimensional and well rounded and well used #even if a writer wrote a fucking. filler comic for an annual or smthn exploring what jason does outside of being red hood #keep the name if u want. have him have deliberately taken the name of his killer and twisted it until ppl from his city know rh #as a protector of kids and the poor and sex workers and so on. that WORKS. but show him connecting w his community #have him get involved in mutual aid. have him do something when he’s not out as red hood at night. let us see jason & barbara interact more #or jason and steph !!!!!!!! or another positive but complicated dynamic (he has a lot of those) #i just. i think that his stagnancy makes me fucking sad. i liked some aspects of task force z. felt like it ended too soon tho #FUCK the joker lets unpack his self concept & have him be a real person outside of vigilanteism (?) and vengeance #i liked some aspects of the cheer arc in batman urban legends mostly bc he had SOME agency and bc he wasn’t completely flat #even tho i hate the retconning of robin jason being angry and moody and so on #part of the problem is we don’t see him too too often for more than semi brief appearances so im so happy to see him i’ll just accept it #love the idea of a nightwing & red hood team up comic. hate that tom taylor a) wrote it and b) gave jason that stupid ass line abt justice #u think this man trusts cops ????? or the legal system !????????? BITCH. #get jason todd into like a sociology / gender and intersectionality / feminist studies class NOWWWWW #ok im done im sleepy and going to watch nimona. thx for reading to anyone who did #PLS anyone who reads this let me know what u think im frothing at the mouth rn #wes.txt #mine

[stxleslyds]

you know how dc keeps forcing this sudden "we're a family" narrative out of nowhere? I'd love batfam content but years of hurt among them make the recent content seem unearned.

bc you know more about dick and jason than the others, how do you think they would realistically become family to each other, or would it even be in character for them to be the "bros" they're written as now?

Oh anon, this question is amazing, I love it! I saw it when I woke up and since then my brain has been brewing this answer, I was thinking about it as I brushed my teeth and as I was making breakfast, and now I am ready to give you the answer, I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed thinking/writing about it!

DC keeps forcing the wrong relationships, and they keep forcing the wrong centre of this supposed family, they make it out to be the Bat-Family when in reality the Bat (Bruce) should have never been invited to this party.

This is why I give you the… Dick-Family!

Oh yeah baby, I am going there. Dick is the centre of this “family”, he is the guy who is actually connected with everyone, he has been around for so long and he has been present when almost all of the remaining characters were introduced! Bruce might have come first but that guy has nothing on Dick Grayson.

Dick has cared and loved for everyone in this family in a true and beautiful way, no matter how much fanon and DC try to tell us otherwise. This man was an amazing son to Bruce and Alfred (my love for Alfred and Dick is brought to you by @hood-ex), a fantastic brother to Jason, Tim and Cass as well as a phenomenal father/older brother to Damian.

Dick Grayson is the centre of this whole thing, and thanks to DC now being an Omniverse I will be able to explain my line of thoughts. But first let me clear some ideas up.

The way I see it Jason would only get along good enough with Dick. I am not here for Jason and Tim having brunch together (honestly, Lobdell, what were you thinking), Jason never cared for Tim, and then writers that didn’t know how the Red Hood worked made him try to kill Tim so, to me, that relationship is non-existent, Jason doesn’t really perceive Tim (yet).

Jason and Damian, listen, I know that there is this fanon theory that Jason knew and cared for Damian while he was in the League, but that is just fanon talk and it doesn’t really fit in canon either. Jason wasn’t really capable of doing much other than fight, and after he was put in the Lazarus Pit he either had to leave because Ra’s wanted to kill him or Talia took him to the All-Castle. So, Jason’s only real interactions with Damian would be when Jason was written as a crazy, blood thirsty dude that actually tried to harm a child. So, him and Damian wouldn’t really have a good relationship (yet).

Jason and Cass… that’s just a no. Jason and Barbara, I mean Barbara was older than Dick when she first met Jason, so they wouldn’t have much of a relationship.

Now, lets move on to how I will make the Dick-Family work.

Dick (bless him) actually talks and listens to people, unlike Bruce, so the change would start there. Let’s set the timeline, I will stand right after the events of Under the Red Hood. Bruce just chose saving Joker over letting Jason kill the Joker and the building they were in exploded.

Batman keeps on being himself (trash) and Jason, having survived the explosion, moves on to keep on building his empire. He really wants to control the drug trade in Gotham, so he works on that, he slowly but surely takes his place as a drug lord again and is a constant pain in Black Mask’s ass.

While Jason is doing that, Dick is trying to put together his life after Bludhaven was attacked with Chemo. Let’s say that Bludhaven isn’t completely erased from the map but he does have to leave so the city can be re-built. He goes to Gotham, where the Red Hood works.

Let’s say that Alfred told Dick who was under the Red Hood, so Dick being a good brother goes looking for Jason. Their first interaction out of the mask wouldn’t be nice, Jason barely remembers his life before the pit and he really is convinced that Dick is the absolute worst.

But then Jason being a nosy man would make an appearance, for some reason, let’s say that he hacks into the Batcave and when he does that he finds some footage… The footage in question would be the one which shows Bruce punching Dick and sort of blaming him for Jason’s death. (Oh yeah, I am going there). The footage will make a memory come to mind, Dick taking Jason on a skying trip.

So, the next time that Dick and Jason see each other is because Jason went looking for Dick and here is where these two actually talk. The way I see it, Dick is more flexible with the no killing rule, he has worked many times with people that are villains or that just have different ways of doing things. So, I think that he would understand where Jason’s coming from with his ideas. As they begin to understand one another Jason begins to recover more and more memories from before the Pit.

They get together once a week and they chat about life as well as vigilante stuff. They become friends.

At the same time Dick is also very good friends with Tim and also acts like the amazing big brother he is with him. They chat, they sometimes work together and one day they come across a very complicated situation involving a new drug being introduced in Gotham.

Dick would call Jason and now both of them and Tim are reunited in a safe house working together so this new drug doesn’t fall in the wrong hands. Jason and Tim wouldn’t really like each other. Both of them are there for Dick and because they have to get the job done.

That’s how I see Dick forming the Dick-Family unconsciously. Hell, I will introduce Barbara now. Do you guys remember that in UtRH Barbara was mad with Bruce and didn’t want to work with him but she was still in contact with Dick? Well, I am using that so it can fit my narrative.

Dick, Jason and Tim need more intel so Dick calls Oracle (real Oracle) and because Barbara trusts Dick she works with them.

Here is where it gets interesting, through Barbara, Dick meets Cass, through Tim he meets Stephanie. You see that Dick’s connections are leading him to form a group of people. Cass and Stephanie are trained by Babs and Dick and they become the new Batgirls.

As all of that keeps developing Jason and Dick become “partners in crime” they help each other, they start building a brotherly relationship again. Although Jason refuses to say that out loud.

Then comes in Damian, a difficult child if there has ever been one but he has Bruce so Dick doesn’t have to jump in that fast… right?

Oh brother! Bruce is dead (omg what would we do? Battle for the cowl maybe? No!). with Bruce gone there is only one person who can take his place and everyone knows it has to be Dick.

Dick would feel a lot of things as he is taking Bruce’s place as Batman but he has a group of people ready to back him up (Alfred, Jason, Tim, Babs, Cass, Steph), and he also has to take care of Damian, he is a child and with his father gone then maybe his mother would want to take him back to the League of Assassins, Dick obviously doesn’t want that so he talks to Tim and tells him that he sees him as his equal and that he has a plan to make Damian stay and it involves making Damian his new Robin.

Tim would obviously be sad and a little hurt, but he understands Dick’s decision because they talked about it and Dick actually took the time to explain why he was doing what he was doing (really DC half of the problems you guys come up could be fixed in seconds if people would only take some time to just TALK!).

Dick and Damian work as Batman and Robin and Dick starts assuming the position of his father. They would live with Alfred in the penthouse and maybe Tim will join them from time to time (when he wasn’t busy with Young Justice/Teen Titans stuff). Slowly Dick and Damian will become the Dynamic Duo that we love today.

So, Dick would have his own Robin, Oracle (who is also managing her own team with Black Canary and (why not) the Batgirls), Red Robin and Red Hood working with him if he needs them. They are always a call away. Jason is the most difficult to reach and he will only involve himself in that kind of drama if its about controlling the drug trade or scaring the living shit out of some very shady people.

So, Red Hood wouldn’t be working with the new (and improved) Batman but Jason would hang out with Dick sometimes.

From there they build up. Dick renovates Arkham Asylum and makes it work they way that it is supposed to work. He might also recruit Catwoman when he needs someone really sneaky, they have known each other for so long, I bet Selina loves Dick, she would certainly help him out.

But as all things do, this happy and well-connected Dick-Family is disrupted when Bruce comes back, he inserts himself slowly back into his role as Batman and as he does that Dick starts to move away from it.

But Dick’s connections are strong and well cared for, so, even when he goes back to Bludhaven and starts fresh (again) as Nightwing those connections remain. Oracle still gives him intel, Robin and Red Robin come over to Bludhaven to patrol, maybe they even have their own rooms at Dick’s place.

With Bludhaven functioning again, all of the terrible people that were working there also come back, maybe some of them never left and they have been corrupting the city from its very core. So, when Jason tells Dick that he would like to expand his operations to Bludhaven, Dick says yes, as long as Jason keeps him updated on his work and also lets him know what is going on.

I think it works! What do you guys think so far?

From then on with the whole Dick-Family being connected and strong I think they can actually act and solve their problems as a family. All those arcs that didn’t work very well because Bruce was in the middle of it being a jerk, I think they will work if Dick is at the centre of it. Let’s say that Bruce hid the fact that Joker knows their identities and all that, with such a strong family the second that the Joker tries to manipulate Jason into believing that he created him, Dick will come out of the shadows and shut that bullshit down. If Joker tries to do something to the Circus, then the Birds of Prey and the Robins will be there in seconds helping Dick.

The Court of Owls, those little shits wouldn’t stand a chance against this team, this force of nature! Jason would be the one working from afar because you know my boy wouldn’t be subjected to the “no-killing” rule but if he does it, he has to do it away from the children (Damian) and away from Cass, if he doesn’t want to know real trouble. (He probably arranged those things with Dick a long time ago and he is happy with it).

Now, please forgive me but for angst reasons I will actually let the events of, Batman Incorporated #8, Forever Evil, Nightwing #30 and Spyral run its course.

Let me explain, after Damian’s death Dick holds the Dick-Family together, as well as Bruce because he is amazing like that, but then after Dick supposedly dies, things change just a little bit. Jason would retreat back to his own corner because the only thing attaching him to the Dick-Family was Dick but he would also keep his eyes open and he might also have a direct line with Oracle if things go south.

Aside from Jason, I do see the others working on keeping their connections intact. When Damian eventually returns the land of the living, I can see all of them coming together even more because that’s what Dick would have wanted.

And then Dick will come back from Spyral and here is where the Dick-Family will show the “Bat-Family” why its superior to it in every aspect possible.

The Dick-Family will notice that something must have happened, Dick would never play dead and leave them like that, but Dick loves Bruce and he doesn’t want to tell them the truth, Bruce has no memories now and his family doesn’t deserve that kind of drama BUT Jason and Tim are suspicious, they know Dick at this point and they trust him so they firmly believe that he is hiding something to protect someone. And here is where life repeats itself. Let’s review the Batcave’s footage, yes, I did it again, I just love the fact that Bruce has footage of himself being the absolute worst to his kids, how does DC not use it! Anyway, Tim and Jason find the footage from the events of Nightwing #30 and suddenly the Dick-Family have their “Dick defence squad” jackets on and they are ready to party.

After all that Bruce eventually gets his memories back and he is held accountable for his actions. Also, around this time the events of Robin War would have already happened so Duke is also introduced. Dick lets him join and all that, and then Duke and Cass become besties and they work together.

And yeah, as Rebirth comes closer the Dick-Family would be more united than ever.

The end.

That is how I would have done it. But this way is slow, and DC wouldn’t be able to monetize it as much as they would want.

Jason wouldn’t be giving hugs and calling everyone their brother or sister, he will only get along with Dick and he would be professional with everyone else.

Tim and Damian would get along but they wouldn’t go for ice cream together on a sunny day. Steph and Damian would and so would Cass and Tim or Cass and Duke.

Oracle would work with Dick and the others as a side thing because her main thing would be the Birds of Prey, this time with Helena too.

Alfred would spend his time with Bruce but he would also be very aware of Dick and his influence on everyone around them. Bruce eventually would be integrated to the Dick-Family because Dick is a sweetheart but Dick would also make Bruce follow his rules, Dick is a little bean but he is also the most badass person in the room (whichever room) so you better listen to what he has to say.

The Dick-Family would be something that grows silently and doesn’t need a “Joker War” in order for them to be there for each other, they would try their best each step of the way and they will talk things out when mistakes are made.

This is the way that I see this family dynamic working.

I would even go as far as to say that Talia can be part of the Dick-Family because she is connected to three people, Dick, Damian and Jason.

Dick is the person with most connections in the DC Universe, the Titans, the Justice League, Deathstroke, they all have connections to this treasure of a man. If he needs help in Gotham or Bludhaven then he can call people from the “first circle”, if things are beyond a “street level” threat them he can call the Titans and if shit really hits the fan, Clark and the others are a call away.

Anyway, this was unnecessarily long, I am sorry about it but I am also not because I really don’t know how to answer your question without going on a long rant.

In conclusion the Bat-Family doesn’t work and sadly it wouldn’t work no matter how much they force it. These people don’t have connections, Bruce is not able to make connections between people. And DC has erased entire relationships that Dick used to have. I mean, they got rid of Dick and Tim being close brothers just so they could give us a shitty brunch between Tim and Jason? Only yesterday we saw a true and beautiful interaction between Dick and Damian.

DC is handling the “Bat-Family” in all the worst possible ways. It just doesn’t work.

They should have used Dick all those years ago and they shouldn’t have destroyed Jason’s characterization with Lobdell’s ideas.

So, sadly, my dear anon, I don’t see the Bat-Family as a in character thing for any of these people as they are written currently, but I hope that you enjoyed my version of it. May the Dick-Family bring everyone who reads about it a little joy!

#Dick-Family #Jason Nation #dick grayson #nightwing #red hood #tim drake #damian wayne #red robin #robin #batfamily #alfred pennyworth #bruce wayne #dc comics #jason todd #asksss

[our-happygirl500-fan]

Okay okay okay okay, I know I’m asking a lot of stuff and probs annoying you. I’m currently reading about the character but what about her and Tim?? Like can I get a run down of everything about them. The good and bad?? Everytime I see things on here it’s either making Tim to be so bad (Anti-Tim ig) or Steph to be so bad and I’m sure they’re both at fault, yea?

No I’m happy to help.

Both Tim and Steph have made mistakes but not in an awful way and more in a ‘these are literal children dealing with serious situations while also trying to be in a relationship with one another’. 

The Steph being bad stuff entirely comes from the fact that she’s a female love interest to a boy who’s one half of a popular mlm ship, she’s made mistakes here and there but they’re human instances where she’s trying to do her best, fandoms often tend to erase or demonise female characters in any any fandom if they are involved in a ship. It’s a sexist habit that comes from reducing a female to only her romantic relationship and ignoring all her other connections and reeks of misogyny. There’s also some slut shaming as Steph was a teen pregnancy & a victim of sexual assault multiple times.

The anti Tim stuff is a bit more complicated, partly it’s a response to sexism where so many fans are sick of the misogyny directed at Steph that they go full throttle the other way or it comes from fans genuinely uncomfortable with Tim’s actions as this is comics and comics are usually written by sexist men which means Tim sometimes takes actions or says something that is not so great.

The important thing to remember about Tim and Steph is that they are each others best friends and they have been through so much together to the point where even if they were not dating they would still be one of the most important relationships the other had.

There is some worry that Tim and Steph feeds into each others complexes 

Tim and Steph both experienced neglect growing up in different ways which makes their attitude to love very different.

Tim's parents were never around most of the time which makes him sort of desperate for love, for validation and most of the time he seems to be of the sort that love is something he can earn if he just does the right thing or achieves the right goal which reflects on how he probably thought if he got good grades or made his parents proud they'd notice him more they'd spend time with him more.

Steph's childhood of neglect I guess you could say came from the sickness of her parents Arthur Brown was abusive to both his wife and daughter and Crystal's drug addiction making her barely able to raise Steph half the time. More often than not it was Steph taking care of the house hold and her mother than any adult looking out for Steph.

With the neglect Steph went through she knew that there was nothing /she/ herself could do to change it, she couldn't magically make her mother quit taking drugs or stop her father from committing crimes by winning an award or behaving well, heck most of her childhood was just trying to keep her and her mum alive so in contrast with Tim who is desperate to receive love Steph is desperate to give love. Because if she's giving love to this person that means they care about her too right? 

This comes across in how easy Steph is willing to poor love into people who are even remotely nice to her like the second Barbara or Bruce stop treating her like shit she's immediately like 'I would die for you'. The second her mother is sober enough to notice her Steph is there being like 'mom I love you I would protect you with my life'. Cass is slightly nice to her? She is now Steph's best friend.

Tim is desperate to receive unconditional affection while Steph is desperate to give unconditional affection which would explain why they are drawn to one another but enough about the meta and onto their actual history.

Steph became a vigilante originally to stop her fathers crimes, the entire point of Spoiler was an abuse victim taking agency back from her abuser and due to Tim being Robin and also investigating the same crimes the two would run into each other multiple times, there was an attraction between the two however neither truly pursued anything due to the fact that Tim was dating another girl and Steph was ‘seeing’ a guy (though the relationship was implied to be unhealthy as he was significantly older, Steph only being around 14 at the time, and showed little in Steph’s actual well being).

However despite the two already being in relationships the two developed keen banter together and quickly began to enjoy the others presence what arguably set then on the path towards a relationship however is when Tim very nearly died and Steph managed to save him at the last second, Tim was so relieved that he kissed Steph sparking a romantic interest from Steph and Tim beginning to realise he had feelings for her.

Steph would then continue fighting crime outside of her fathers crimes as Steph realised that as Spoiler she could help other abuse victims such as herself. Steph’s entire life can be described as falling through the cracks in the system no one caring about the abuse and unsafe situations that she grew up with and Steph’s early journey as Spoiler is her realising that even though no one had cared when she was abused and hurt she could be the person who would care for other people so no one would suffer the way she did. Steph aiming to fight crime meant that she and Tim ran into each other even more working multiple cases together until it eventually culminated into Tim admitting that he had feelings for Steph but due to his loyalty to Batman he could never tell her his secret identity however Steph told him that that was enough for her, the two ended their previous relationships and started dating.

This is actually where a lot of criticism over the relationship is from due to the obvious power imbalance Tim knows every detail of Steph’s life while controlling all information Steph has on him and only lets her interact with Robin. Tim has also been shown to be rather possessive of Steph controlling her interactions with other members of the superhero community and expressing alarm in her spending time with other heroes who are not him.

There is also the fact that for a large part every man Stephanie has ever interacted with have been abusive in some way, her home life was incredibly dangerous due to her mother and fathers friends all being criminals or victims and Steph had to deal with at least two instances of child predators growing up so to many readers it becomes increasingly obvious that Tim might very well be the first man Steph ever interacted with who treated her with human decency and that is why she fell in love with him.

After the relationship started Steph found out that she had become pregnant from her previous relationship and the reader discovers that Steph’s previous boyfriend on top of being awful to her was also using her for sex. Steph tells Tim about the pregnancy fully expecting him to break up with her however Tim states that he is going to be there to support Steph. The two grow even closer as Tim becomes someone for Steph to lean on wearing disguises to take Steph to birthing classes and helps Steph through the process of putting the baby up for adoption. Tim is even there when the child is born.

The incident made Tim and Steph even closer and afterwards the two continue dating and remain close, Steph quickly becomes what could be considered Tim’s safe place as he is able to leave any problems as Tim Drake or Robin away and simply enjoy being with her and during times where Tim is unable to visit Steph he is shown to be tense and disgruntled without the positive emotional outlet however after nearly over a year and a half of dating Steph begins to realise that the dynamic of the relationship is uneven as Tim has complete control and knowledge over her own life while she knows nothing about Tim’s life out of the mask. Steph begins to worry about merely being used and starts openly wishing that Tim would let her be more involved with his life outside of Robin.

Tim meanwhile is beginning his rebellious phase against Batman and Bruce takes actions to try and nip it in the bud as Dick’s rebellious phase ended with Dick leaving Batman for the Titans and Jason’s rebellious phase ended with Jason dead. Bruce attempts to control Tim by using Steph revealing Tim’s secret identity to Tim. After that point Bruce would continually manipulate Steph in a gambit to manipulate Tim and Tim expresses frustration at Bruce using Steph to get to him.

Bruce and Steph’s relationship is incredibly complicated in its own right as Steph has a childhood admiration of Batman as he was the only one who seemed to be able to stop her fathers abuse by putting him in prison. This childhood admiration causes Steph to follow and respect Bruce no matter how many times his actions hurt her. Bruce on the other hand has a lot of issues regarding Steph as Steph reminds him a lot of Jason and Bruce puts a lot of his unresolved issues regarding his dead son on her which as you might assume does not end well for Steph at all.

Outside of Bruce’s meddling however Steph and Tim grow increasingly close no longer having to worry about secret identities the two go on regular dates and are there for each other in every aspect of their lives. However Tim’s father finds out about Robin and forces him to quit and Steph who had been dating Tim ‘batman needs a Robin’ Drake for years was firmly of the belief that ‘Gotham needs a Robin’ at which point Steph herself becomes the fourth Robin though it is heavily implied that once again Bruce is manipulating Steph in order to manipulate Tim into coming back.

Then DC enters its dark ages where they kill off characters left and right and Steph is tortured, raped and killed in a Gotham wide gang war primarily for Bruce angst so that Bruce can go ‘oh god it’s Jason all over again I knew she was girl Jason I knew it’ mean while Tim has what can probably be best described as a mental break down over Steph’s death and the subsequent death of his father and multiple friends. This causes Tim to become cold, cynical and increasingly dark and pessimistic (he has depression).

However Steph comes back to Gotham two years later alive again and it is revealed that Leslie Thompkin’s essentially kidnapped Steph to Africa for two years and faked Steph’s death in order to try and save Steph from being a soldier in Batman’s crusade. Steph was Leslie’s ward for two years but realised that she could literally not stop fighting crime as in Africa Steph literally started dressing up as an African legend and started fighting crime there, eventually convincing Leslie that they needed to go back to Gotham the two returned and Tim was over the moon to see Steph alive kissing her on sight, however Tim realises that he essentially had a break down over Steph death for nothing and expresses resentment over Steph letting him believe that she was dead for two years. Steph who had spent the past to years recovering physically and mentally from the trauma of being tortured for days prior to Leslie faking Steph’s death and Steph essentially not having had a choice in Leslie’s plan to fake her death is just like ‘I don’t know what to tell you buddy’ 

Steph is still Tim’s emotional home, immediately relying on her for emotional support once again and the two are shown to still love each other however the two had changed a great deal over the time they were apart. Steph having had an adult finally care about her well being for the first time in her life grew much more positive into someone who believed in the inherent good in people and in hope while Tim had grown harsh and dark and cynical. The two even joke about how Steph has become an optimist while Tim had become a pessimist. Steph is like a beam of light for Tim who had become increasingly dark and Tim finds himself being both wary of it and drawn to it.

Then Bruce gets back to his old tricks of using Steph to manipulate Tim and gives Steph instructions to challenge Tim in order to improve Tim’s skills as a crime fighter. Steph on Bruce’s orders employs and assassin to fight Tim however the assassin goes to far and Steph is injured trying to protect Tim. Tim realising that Bruce is once again manipulating Steph to get to him as well as having an inherent fear of Steph dying again demands that Steph should not be a vigilante any longer never mind that Steph literally can not stop fighting crime which causes a rift between the two.

The superhero community then believe that Batman is dead and Tim leaves Gotham to prove that Bruce is alive while Tim is gone from Gotham Cass makes Steph the new Batgirl and Steph becomes incredibly close to Barbara and Damian and as Batgirl makes several friends within the masked community no longer having her interactions be controlled by Tim or Bruce. Steph starts coming into her own and building up her self confidence, when Tim returns he is once again upset that Steph is still fighting crime his fear of Steph dying still going strong and acts condescending towards Steph’s attempts to help him however Steph proves herself in sheer level of skill and prowess and Tim accepts her as a vigilante and the new Batgirl accepting that Steph will not die again. Tim then attempts to rekindle their romantic relationship however Steph realises that she had been too dependent on Tim’s love and wishes to improve herself as a person before she even thinks of entering a relationship again. The two remain close friends however Tim expresses attraction towards Steph multiple times (Tim is the horniest little fuck during this time in their lives and Steph is literally out their trying to live her life and better herself as a person and get a university degree it’s hilarious)

If Convergence is to believe the two would always eventually get back together in one way or another the two issues being about their romantic interest in each other and getting back together.

After the reboot happens when they meet again Tim immediately expresses romantic interest in Steph while Steph herself is wary of Tim as in this universe both her mother and her father are criminals who have tried to kill her and Steph has effectively been homeless living in public libraries or where ever she can. It is unknown when but Tim offers Steph a place to live at his apartment and a some point the two eventually enter a romantic relationship.

A lot of fans have criticised this as Steph is entirely financially dependent on Tim for food and shelter and once again Tim holds more power than Steph in the relationship. Also in the rebooted universe Tim is Steph’s only support system as her parents tried to kill her, her father murdered any civilians she was close to in order to hurt her and any connections Steph had before the reboot have had vast amounts of their history erased.

Steph has also been shown to be responsible for a lot of Tim’s mental health as she has to stop him from crossing lines or going off the deep end multiple times it is described as Tim having a tendency of walking a dark path when he is alone. 

Steph and Tim are both presented as each others support systems in current comics and when Tim wanted to leave Gotham in order to research the multiverse Steph went with him as the two rely on each other.

I don’t believe there is a good guy or bad guy in their relationship both Tim and Steph want what’s best for each other but sometimes these views don’t line up which causes conflict but at the end of the day they are two people that care about each other a great deal and whether they are in a relationship or not they will always be one of the most important people in each others lives.

The relationship is criticised by the fandom as fans either fetishise mlm relationships and are angry at Steph ‘getting in the way’ an unfortunate trend in all fandoms and on the other side many are tired of female characters being reduced to their romantic relationships.

TimSteph is a cute ship with a deep connection and a lot of history proving that they care about each other a great deal but sexism and misogyny are things that exist especially in fandom spaces and that creates a nightmare.

#asks #DC comics #stephanie brown #tim drake #dc #timsteph #boy these two have been through a lot #but yeah the ships fine people just hate woman and fetishise gay relationships