#proship vs antiship

[pelman]

Please reblog for more exposure! Also, this isn't an offer to start debates in my replies or reblogs. Express your opinions as loudly and perhaps violently as you'd like, but just to yourselves, not at one another. If you try to start an argument, regardless of what side you're on, I'm blocking you. This is just to gather Tumblr's general opinion.

Anyone on either side of the debate can interact with this post, given that this is a neutral space.

#proshipping #antishipping #proship vs antiship #shipping discourse #poll #tumblr poll #opinion poll #tumblr polls #opinion polls #to clarify my stance i think all ships have the right to exist even if i dont like them #i am not a proshipper and i definitely dont support all types of shipping but #i do believe 'problematic' ships can exist and be fine to ship in specific contexts #if youre not a survivor and you ship problematic stuff i dont trust you though. especially ships with minors. #then again i dont trust any minor/adult shipper or people who focus too much on the intimacy of minors #anti proship #anti shipping #hopefully adding those extra tags evens it out a littke #i feel like theres a bias here

[catgirl-catboy]

#proship #antiship #proship vs antiship #proship vs anti

[myfandomrealitea]

I think most people would, if they knew my stance on shipping, put me into the pro shipping category.

But I feel uncomfortable being labeled this way because I very much have limits.

I don't think people should write fanfiction or draw explicit fanart of characters being played (or voiced) by underage actors (and ofc the same applies to explicit rpf of said actors).

I just think the risk of these young, valuable people coming across these fanworks featuring either them or their likeness is too high (and one also has to remember the natural curiosity to check out stuff featuring them).

I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but what do you think?

I think that that's a reasonable stance and perspective, to have.

The common assumption about proshipping is that you absolutely have to support and endorse absolutely everything and if you don't you're backsliding into being an anti, or you're not fully a proshipper.

But here's the thing; that's not actually the core meaning or value of proshipping. Proshipping does not inherently negate or demand that you have absolutely no limits or that you can't inherently disagree with or be uncomfortable with certain things.

Everyone has certain limits and certain things they simply cannot support or agree with. And that's perfectly fine. Where proshipping comes into it is recognising that everyone has that right, and also the right to still create and engage with things that you personally don't.

Its absolutely fine not to want to identify as a proshipper if you feel that your stance and your limits might be misperceived by using the label. Proshipping does have its inherent meaning and core values, but everyone also uses the label differently and assigns different, personal interpretations and values to it.

There's no obligation to use labels in fandom spaces at all, and there's also no obligation to have an 'all or nothing' stance. I know people who are, by definition, antis, but they're also heavily anti-harassment. They don't think that, morally, I should be writing incest porn, but they also recognise that even if I do, it doesn't necessarily mean I support it in real life either.

Being concerned about how fiction might impact real people is a very considerate, respectful concern to have. Its also why fandom spaces need to remain self-moderated in terms of properly using tags, filters, ect. Another common misconception people have about proshipping and anti-censorship is the assumption that we want to be able to just throw pornography and fiction around anywhere and everywhere, but actually, we still very much believe that everything has its place, and that there are proper, respectful ways and places to host content.

There's a lot of rambling I could do about the symbiosis of respect and moderation between a person/their guardians and fandom content creators, but that would be digressing slightly.

(And the point that a lot of fanfiction about teenagers and minors is written by teenagers and minors.)

The general gist is;

Your opinion is not unreasonable. Nor do I think any less of you for it. Nor would any proshipper, really. That's your concern, your limit, and that should be respected. In the same way that you would need to respect that that content does, and will always, exist, and the people who do write it with the proper measures taken are no less deserving of at the very minimum, your acceptance of the fact that they have a right to.

Proshipping is not:

Having no limits at all.

Thinking that you MUST create absolutely any and all content.

Thinking that you MUST support absolutely any and all content.

Thinking that nobody ever can be uncomfortable with or disinterested in what you create or what is being created.

Proshipping is:

Understanding fiction is not a 1:1 reflection of a person's real interests beliefs, values or their moral standings.

Understanding that fiction is not reality. It does not create victims.

That within the bounds of law, people have a right to create content, even if its content you personally do not support or agree with.

Understanding you do not have the right to dictate what someone can or cannot create, and that you do not have the right to be cruel or harmful to them because of what they create.

#sephiroth speaks #myfandomrealitea #fandom #not discourse #proship #proshipping #fanfiction #fandom discussion #proship vs antiship #minors in fandom

[lovestuckyhatemarvel]

I need people to get a grip

That "I don't care about proship vs anti ship, get real problems" post keeps showing up on my dash and while I don't agree with him about everything, seeing people debate proship vs antiship in the notes of a post that's literally about finding more important things to argue about makes me want to set ao3 and tumblr on fire until they burn to the fucking ground.

Make your own goddamn posts people. Like, I don't even fully agree with that post, but I didn't fucking make shit about me on it. Like goddamn, some of you fuckers have zero etiquette. One even told him to quit his fucking job. Like shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. Like if you do that, you especially need to go the fuck outside, breathe some fresh air, touch some grass, and then slap yourself until you realize this isn't the fucking hill to die on.

#vent #proship vs antiship #i don't identify as either by the way #although both sides have accused me of being the other

[thereyvan]

"Proship has been morphed into something I don't like"

You don't have to label yourself as proship if you don't want to, but please know that it's "been morphed" by antis and not actual proshippers. The definition has stayed the same since it first came out and it's antis who are trying to morph it into something that it's not. Please don't get fooled.

i know, but there's a ton of weird bullshit going on in the proship/antiship debate and i just don't wanna align myself with either side

i'm just someone who'll look around for things. if i like them, cool. if i don't, then i'll usually just ignore them. if those things are really, really nasty(like lolicon/shotacon/other types of cp, bestiality*, and most forms of necrophilia**), then i'll report them. but i rarely stumble across that shit and i'm not gonna actively search for it because i don't wanna see that shit

*this excludes furry porn because furries have human or near-human levels of intelligence. the exception to this is if i know the furries are minors

**i say most forms because i wouldn't report someone who wanted to fuck Springtrap. he's basically a zombie, but one that's smart enough to decide if he wants to fuck. if you wanted to fuck him, then i would silently judge you, but i would not block+report you. in fact, i would pity you because he is British

#op reyvan #proship vs antiship #basically i just have standards #and i choose to not align myself with either side #although i do think both sides can agree that making fun of brits can be fun at times

[silverdragon128]

I don’t want any trouble, I really don’t. But I feel like I need to say this, need to make something clear. A lot of people have talked about how anti-shippers aren’t any safer than pro-shippers, and that anti culture can actually act as a shield for offenders. Well… just over a year ago I was raped. And, amongst other things, the woman who raped me was an anti-shipper. She had assaulted her boyfriend in high school, and immediately ran to morally “pure” groups in order to hide from that side of herself. She rejected everything she felt, refusing to admit it to therapists, refusing to channel it healthily. She couldn’t have done that, she couldn’t be like that. *She was good!* Or at least, that’s what she told herself. One day we met up irl, and she snapped. She’d been into me for years— the boy she assaulted in high school she’d done so because she’d grafted *me* onto him. She’d let the thoughts worm into her brain, and when she got the chance… she… she took everything she wanted from me. And then she went back to hiding behind the “moral purity”. Hid from herself, hid from consequences. The person who finally helped me, then, was a pro-shipper. She was the first one to hear my story and believe it. The one to get me away from this creep. She stood up for me when no one else would… So whenever I hear pro vs anti talk this is immediately what I think of. And yeah, they’re just individuals. It’s just two people. But it’s worth noting that they were, very openly, on their respective sides of the fence. And that being an anti-shipper helped protect my rapist.

As I said, I don’t want trouble. I will block anyone who questions my experience or defends my rapist. That’s the last thing I need right now. I just wanted to put this out there because maybe some people need to know my story. Idk, I hope this opens someone’s eyes

#tw rap3 #pro vs anti #proshipper safe #proship #antiship #god this is dangerous

[kiwisandpearls]

this is a genuine question…

are people just like…not taught that everything they say and post on the internet is going to on their digital footprint and can be traced back to them? Or do people just not care anymore?

#talk away ⌞🍵🍋 ⌝ #proship #I’m tagging this as proship but this is even outside of the proship vs antiship stuff #just in general #I see so many people say and do abhorrent stuff on the internet and I just think #“…you people do know this can easily be traced back to you right..?” #anti harassment #digital footprint

[sunandmoonseisai]

I'm all for "ship and let ship" but proshippers need to get off their high horses. You're not brave and anti-comformist because you're turned on by stuff most people find disgusting. Noone deserve harassment for fictional content, but it is healthy and normal to be put off by incest, rape and pedophilia/zoophilia. You're pushed to the underground of your fandom for a reason.

And antishippers need to understand that the content they hate will always exist no matter how much they harass creators and wish them dead. You can block account and tags for a reason, stop obsessing over things that make you unhappy. It's not healthy. You're making the fandom experience toxic for everyone.

And ffs, 3 years age gap isn't pedophilia, just because you interpret two unrelated characters as siblings doesn't mean everyone has to. Get some nuances.

#fandom discourse #proship #antiship #anti harrassment #the antishippers vs proshippers discourse is the most obnoxious shit #both sides are extremely out of touch and self righteous #rant post #my hot takes

[www-sys-net]

Anyways here's yalls unfriendly reminder that despite how fucking stupid the proship/antiship discourse is, I would still entirely be on the side of pro!

Curate your own fucking internet experience. I do not care if I somehow trigger you because it's not my responsibility to cater to every single person on the internet.

Especially when the term "trigger" is being used so loosely. 7/10 times you're just uncomfortable, not triggered. A lot of you all are so engrossed in online spaces that it's degraded your knowledge of actual issues.

And that's entirely fine. Nobody should ever force you to interact with content that makes you uncomfortable or that could harm you.

But your trauma or your discomforts are your own. They're not mine. And hopefully, they never will be. I can only hope that you can get the help you need to move forward instead of wallowing in self pity because it makes people feel bad for you.

Blocking is a right that you have. Nobody should be telling you that blocking people makes you weak or that you've somehow lost some fight or argument for keeping yourself safe as best as you can.

But when it comes to it, that's that. You can't impose anything on anyone else because you dislike it or because it makes you uncomfortable.

Also, if you're going to use a legally definable term, I'm begging you all to actually understand what that term entails. Cause it really seems like quite a lot of you are throwing around words and terms that aren't actually applicable, and then you'll ignore anyone who points out you're being incorrect.

Your trauma does not give you the right to impose your thoughts onto others. Antishippers have no right to use their trauma to force someone to censor themselves. Proshippers have no right to use their trauma to force someone to interact with content that makes them uncomfortable.

Disagree? Congratulations, you have the right to block us and move on with your life.

#actually plural #endo positivity #endo safe #endo tag #endogenic #plural community #plural culture #plural pride #plural stuff #plural system #proship #antiship #proship vs anti #proshippers please interact #antishipping #median system #traumagenic median #proshipper safe #antishipper #proshipper #plural #plural tag #plurality #plural gang #plural positivity #plural things #pluralgang #endogenic system #endo system #endo friendly

[catgirl-catboy]

So. You've just heard the words "proship" and "anti" for the first time. Or maybe you've been hearing them for a while, and you decided to look up what they mean. Or maybe you've just stumbled upon this post.

A quick disclaimer! I, the person that wrote this post, am a proshipper. However, I will try to present both arguments from an objective and unbiased point of view. However, there may be small mistakes from the antiship side of things, of which I am sorry. This post was made in good faith to help people who have never heard of this discourse before. If you're an anti and would like to give your two cents about my section on antis, feel free!

I have also linked several sources in the replies section, since links tend to fuck with the tumblr search engine. Feel free to look into those if you'd like to read more on the subject. (and please do before trying to correct this post, since there's a lot of misinformation going around on the subject!)

Antishipping:

Since the term antishipping originated before the term proshipping (even if the proship ideology existed first), it seems like a good place to start.

Antishipping is the belief that certain types of fandom content reflect badly on the people that create and consume it. Antishippers believe that if you interact with that content enough, your real-life morals get loosened, and you are more likely to want to commit the crimes depicted in said content.

Some antishippers think that people that already have a desire to commit said crimes are more likely to enjoy content depicting those crimes, and thus liking that content is a "red flag". I've seen both arguments about equally.

What do I mean by said content? You'll get a slightly different definition from anti to anti, but common targets of this logic include:Ships with a large age gap. Ships that have one character under the age of adulthood, and one over. Incestuous ships. Ships between real people like celebrities. Ships deemed racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic by the fandom. Abusive ships. One thing I've noticed about antis is how sex and romance focused they seem to be. They rarely apply the same logic to fics depicting crimes such as assault and murder, despite those also being just as illegal IRL.

Proshipping: If antishipping is the belief that certain ships reflect badly about your character, proshipping is the belief that it does not.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the word proship, so allow me to do a quick tangent about what a proshipper is not:

Proship is not short for problematic ship. The term proship was named to oppose the pre-existing anti ship. It is pro as in for.

Proship is not a synonym for pedophile. Proship is all about what you think is okay to depict in fiction, not your real life sexual preferences. For instance, the proshipper writing this is asexual and incapable of having a sexual interest in anyone.

Proship is not an assertion of comfort for every type of problematic ship. Quite a lot of proshippers are uncomfortable with incest and age gap ships. The only requirement to be a proshipper is that you don't think someone is a bad person for writing/reading problematic fiction.

Why do proshippers think this? There is a variety of reasons among the community, but as a general rule of thumb they try to give people the benefit of the doubt. That person who writes incest fic could be hitting on their own family. But they also could be a victim of incest and write to come to terms with what they went through. They also could be an only child that finds the idea of a big brother having a crush on them hot. Without having an honest conversation with them, we have no real way of knowing.

I won't overshare, but the main reason I enjoy abusive dynamics in fiction is because I was abused in the past. I like the idea of finding catharsis in fiction, where characters that remind me of my abusers can grow and change for the better. I don't think that'll make me more likely to abuse the people close to me. I'd argue that since I understand what behaviors are abusive better, I'm actually less likely! (I had to unlearn a lot of shit.)

Problems with the antiship community:

A lot of antishippers harass people that make content for ships they dislike. Despite antishippers being upset at the perceived normalization that problematic ships might cause, a lot of them normalize using violent language to people they disagree with. A lot of antishippers are comfortable dehumanizing proshippers and have little compassion. Despite a lot of antis calling for better trigger tagging of fictional content, they rarely trigger tag their violent threats to people that make content they are morally opposed to.

A lot of antis overuse words like "pedophile" and "Child Porn" (tangent: the proper terminology for pictures of a (real, IRL) minor is CSEM or Child Sexual Exploitation Material. It is never porn.) in situations when they don't actually apply, creating alarm fatigue and difficulty communicating when an actual crime is being committed. Governments have asked antis specifically to stop clogging up their hotlines with reports of porn of fictional characters.

A small but dangerous subsection of antis will knowingly expose NSFW content to minors to show them what proshippers are creating. This is an IRL crime, and should be reported if you ever encounter it.

A lot of antishippers strech the definition of problematic to include ships they personally dislike. I have seen anti shippers bashing the relationship between a 14 y/o character and a 16 y/o character, despite that not being much of an age gap at all. This causes the rise of excuses like "sibling coding" (the implication that two characters that are not biologically related or are adopted siblings are siblings for found family reasons, and can't be shipped.)

Antishippers frequently call for problematic content to "remain out of the main tags", which would seem a logical request at first. They do not wish to know such content is being created. However, this makes it harder for the people not in the fandom to avoid seeing said content. Some people have fandom tags blocked for trigger reasons, and following the antis advice of not putting things in the main tags can put those people in danger. (Most proshippers put multiple trigger warnings on their content for people to search for and filter out.)

There is a lot of ableism in the antiship community, with two of their frequently used insults being "get help" and "proship freaks". Many antis frequently expect users who want to interact with them to check a "carrd" (an external website where they keep lists of who they do and don't want to see on their blog.) which can frequently be eyescorching and hard to read for people with visual sensitivities.

A lot of antishippers overshare information about themselves to dangerous levels. It is common for them to share their names, exact ages, and triggers. This could be used to hurt them by malicious trolls, and is not a good idea.

Instead of creating new websites where the rules cater to them, antis will try to bend (or just) the rules of existing websites that are more in line with the proship ideology. Despite believing these websites lower the moral character of everyone that uses them, the willingly choose to use them anyway.

Problems with the proship community:

(this is by far the section I am the least confident in writing, so if you would like to reblog this with problems about the proship community I did not mention, I will not be upset. I try to make this post as objective as humanly possible.)

Many critics of the proship community describe it as an "echo chamber", and there is some truth to that. There is a lot of pressure to be comfortable with the darkest of problematic ships, else you may get accused of not being a real proshipper.

There is also overlap between the proship community and several communities like consang, radqueer and transid. You have to do your research on who you follow if you (understandably) wish to avoid those communities.

There is a lot of hostility to "neutrals" of this discourse from the proship community. (Personally, I don't think neutrals exist. Either fiction makes you worse, or it doesn't. Its a binary issue. That being said, ID as neutral to this if you want, I won't stop you.)

This could either be a bug or a feature depending on who you ask, but I notice a tendency to prefer ship positivity over nuanced discussion or talk about dynamics/headcanons.

Quite a lot of proshippers have victim complexes (probably due to all of the suicide baiting) and will take any disagreement with them in the worst possible light.

#proship #proship discourse #antiship #antiship discourse #proship vs anti

[biceratops7]

Full disclosure,

I really hate the word “Proshipper” because when someone claims it I legit can’t tell if they see the value of problematic themes in media, or if they’re a closet p*do (aka I “think relationships between 14 and 20 year olds should be shown on screen for reasons”). Those things should definitely fucking not be under the same label.

Like seriously when tf did we collectively decide that you can either think every thing under the sun is worth representing in any light and all censorship is bad, or that everything anyone may possibly deem problematic must be censored? How tf did we make one of the most grey area, individualized dilemmas into binary internet teams??

#proshipper #antishipper #pro vs anti #proship #antiship #anti #antis #censorship #fandom #fandom discourse #ofmd #spn #good omens #sam and max #idk just tagging my fandoms #biceratops

[its-lick-the-lollipop]

Hello tumblr! It’s been a while. I have another post in drafts that I will be publishing later! But let’s talk about @reversedshinyoumaru aka @gravitybeetie on twitter!

Now we were discussing AI art and I don’t actually defend it. But I said Marshie’s art is probably less likely going to be used for machine learning and teasingly called it “special”

What followed was me being called an extremely offensive term

"Degenerate" is a buzzword used by neo-Nazis and the alt-right to refer to all kinds of people that they consider to be sexually or otherwise immoral or deviant.

That includes a lot of different kinds of people: sex workers, women who have sex outside of marriage, people in interracial relationships, drug users, anyone with an STD, anyone with any sort of paraphilia fetish or kink, Jewish people, political progressives, and of course, all LGBTQ+ individuals.

It's extremely sexist, homophobic and bigoted.

"Degenerate" is also a eugenics term. It expresses an opinion that someone is subhuman, literally less evolved than normal humans, in a biological sense. It's an insult to someone's DNA.

It's the kind of word that there's never really a very good reason for using to refer to anyone. Everyone human is actually human, not literally subhuman, no matter how much we might dislike them.

Also they were told to do this as seen via curiouscat.

I didn’t send the ask but why would I deny that you used right wing buzzwords on a queer person?

Or that you are ableist?

Remember that it’s autistic and disabled people who are called a freak the most?

#antiship #antishipper #antis are transphobic #antis are queerphobic #antishippers are right wingers #degeneracy #antishippers are radfems #exposing puritanism #transphobia #queerphobia #bigotry #right wing extremism #antis are radfems #antishipping #don’t call anyone degenerate #reversedshinyoumaru #gravitybeetie #proship vs anti cw #antis follow christian conservative propaganda #eugenics

[synf3ll]

i don't feel it's necessary to put this in the main self ship tag but since this is a hot topic i kind of want to share my opinion on it (<- i can't shut up ever)

it's totally okay to put "proship DNI" etc on your posts, in the tags etc, but telling people to kill themselves over it is way too far :/

i cannot fathom why anyone would ever say that to anyone else. as someone who struggles w constant active suicidal urges, this fucking sucks i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. (... maybe my worst enemy, but certainly not a stranger on the internet.)

telling people to kill themselves is pretty much the lowest thing you can say to anyone. i block people that say it, even as a joke. not only is it rude and inappropriate, it's immature. you can come up with more creative amd accurate ways to say you dislike someone -- and if you can't, don't say anything in the first place.

#og #just in case y'all don't have reading comprehension skills: #i'm not proship i just?? think it's wrong to tell people to kill themselves?? is that so wrong (sarcasm/irony) #tbh i don't understand the pro/antiship labels in the first place #reducing the argument to pro/antiship is like reducing american politics to republicans vs democrats #my point is. those are the two sides that are the loudest but there's a lot of us who don't like those labels #to try to simplify it is dangerous and insensitive but y'all aren't ready for that convo

[yourfaveisantiship]

every single character and Thing in plants vs zombies is antiship!!!

#pvz #plants vs zombies #mod solar flair #antiship #antiproship #anti proship #anti proshipping #yourfaveis

[idoshitsimetimes]

Fiction affects reality quite a bit

Personally I don't care if you like violent media because my main issue here is people justifying sexualizing children and painting grooming and pedophilia in a good light. Properly tag your things, be accurate and include disclaimers because kids are impressionable idiots.

https://fictiondoesaffectreality.carrd.co/

https://www.tumblr.com/maphatingcharacteroftheday/188210001860/fiction-affecting-reality-masterpost?source=share

https://patchedupheart.medium.com/thought-vomit-the-jaws-effect-337abd326c15

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1151032.pdf

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8LB2JSy/

Here's a few links, I don't want to see any "Well it doesn't affect people" because if it didn't affect people we wouldn't have had two girls trying to kill someone for slenderman, less people (who haven't been assaulted) thinking r@pe is a nice pleasurable thing, less people believing getting off to children is normal and okay. I'm not saying if people don't make things or if they add disclaimers/tags it will fix everything because it won't.

I like watching and reading psychological horror but I have to take frequent breaks because it hurts my mental health, it affects me a lot.

#fiction #vs #reality #mental health #perception #controversial #antiship #proship #real issues #tw pedophila mention #tw r@pe mention

[carbonateddelusion]

creativecrash is by proshipers. I would suggest not joining it as people will then call you one and you'd get harassed.

yeah that sounds about right

#proship vs antiship stuff is stupid imo bc it means nothing at this point #but i also do not want to bring negative attention to myself bc fuck that i have enough going on #ask #anonymous #me things