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lagosbratzdoll · 8 months

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On Daenerys, Colonisation and Race Discourse within the ASOIAF Fandom

This has been on my mind for a good long while and honestly, as much as I would like to leave discourse in the pits, it has been bugging me intermittently over the past few weeks.

Far too many of you get on here and call people who like the fictional dragon-riding family, neo-Nazis and that sentiment is so prevalent, that white people feel comfortable telling me a black woman that I am a neo-Nazi for rooting for Daenerys Targaryen. I am upholding neo-Nazi power fantasies for wanting to see a little girl live at the end of a story. I am a neo-Nazi for wanting to see the rape survivor have the family she aches for and children with the man (or men) she loves.

Then, those same people go on spiels about how the systemic erasure of those who sing the song of the earth and other old races is not colonialism. That their removal from their home is not displacement but an agreement between two equal parties. The fact that the only place where those who sing the song of the earth exist in the present timeline is north of the wall, surrounded by the bones of their dead, is not a travesty. That the expulsion of the old races from their home isn't that bad and should not be condemned.

Instead, people argue, completely seriously, that the harm that the First Men and Andals have caused is centuries in the past, so essentially the slate has been wiped clean. The logical leaps that are required to arrive at such a boneheaded conclusion are truly mind-boggling, and those who make such arguments are not good people.

I am unsure how one could read those books and come away with the impression that the old races do not mourn the loss of their home. I am unsure how one could read The Last of the Giants[1] and Ygritte’s reaction to both the song and Jon’s dismissal of the ethnic cleansing of the giants then believe that the old races and the free folk have moved past their displacement.

In Westeros, from the Wall to the broken arm of Dorne, they all speak one language despite the fact they are all different ethnicities and they all landed on the shores at different times. That is not the case in Essos, we have been introduced to at least six languages and in A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion notes that the Valyrian spoken in the Free Cities has evolved into nine distinct dialects, and they are well on their way to becoming different languages.

How would a continent as large and diverse as Westeros maintain its hegemony over the people if not for forced assimilation, discriminatory practices and violence? The brutal repression required to keep one house in power for thousands of years is nothing to sniff at. The suppression required to keep the vast majority of Westeros worshipping one (or seven) gods. The systems in place ensure that language does not grow or evolve amongst the highborns at least.

Centuries before Aegon's Landing the maesters were the definitive educational authority and even now centuries after, nothing has changed. The grey rats still decide who learns what and when they learn it. There's one in every highborn home, all correspondence passes through them, they are the healers and the councillors.

The circular logic gets even more blockheaded when you factor in the fact that Daenerys is far from the only white character in the books. She is not the only character who wishes for home. She is not the only character who draws strength from her ancestors, her bloodline and her magical creatures.

Cersei draws strength from her family’s iconography, and the Stark children (Jon included) all draw strength from their direwolves, their home and their blood. Sansa, Arya and Bran wish to return home and their home was built on the indiscriminate murder and displacement of the indigenous peoples. Their home is built on centuries of rape, murder, exclusionary practices and sexual slavery.

However, if we give the nonsensical argument that time erases crimes air; the Starks, Lannisters and Tullys are warring to settle personal grievances in the present timeline. As a consequence of that war, thousands (a modest guesstimate) of small folk, minor nobles and even some major ones have been raped, tortured, maimed and killed.

Despite all this, no one writes meta after meta about how Sansa and her siblings must surely die for justice to be had for those who sing the song of the earth, the free folk, the giants and all the old races that fled beyond the wall.

People write meta about Cersei and how she must die, but those are typically more misogynistic nature. They typically argue that she must die not for the “crime” of being Lannister, but for the “crime” of being Cersei and “ruining” Jamie.

I would not mind criticisms of Dany and her peace-focused approach to ending slavery because the approach is naïve and she gives the slavers far too much ground. However, she is learning, growing and self-critiquing. At the end of A Dance with Dragons, she has decided to embrace fire and blood, her knight is breaking the false peace which is a necessary step forward.

What I find offensive is people saying that she should have planned better before she abolished slavery. And that the death, violence, and sickness that arises from her quest to eradicate slavery is somehow worse than the death, violence, and sickness that already existed in Slaver’s Bay.

This argument often downplays the horrific conditions and suffering that exist(ed) under the slave system in Slaver's Bay. Such arguments are often in poor taste and prioritise the lives and comforts of the slavers more than the people they have enslaved.

I would not mind criticisms of Dany if people applied that same critique even-handedly. The same people who believe that Jon and Bran have done much to rectify the evil that their ancestors perpetuated believe that Dany has not done anything to right the wrongs of her ethnic kin. They praise them for the non-existent steps that they have taken, but in the same breath, they condemn Dany for not being able to immediately end the plague that is slavery.

It is perfectly alright to not like fictional characters, no law requires you to like certain fictional characters over others. However, what is not right is making broad accusations about those who do, it is beyond the pale. It is disgusting, and annoying, and trivialises real-world issues to score cheap points against fictional characters.

Equating the survival of a teenage survivor to the restoration of a fascist house or neo-Nazi power fantasy when such designations do not exist in the world of ice and fire is strange behaviour. Saying that the teenage survivor will eventually be manipulated and raped (again) before ending up dead on her manipulator's blade is also strange behaviour.

Dismissing the horrors of colonialism, especially when the text shows you that the involved parties are still affected by it, is not normal and often veers into real-world imperialism apologia. While criticism and analysis of characters and their actions are valid and even encouraged, it is essential that we do not resort to sweeping generalisations about other people and that we keep criticisms of characters grounded in the text.

[1]

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth.

The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth

Oh, the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.

And they’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills

In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.

Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears.

They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night.

For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light.

Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song.

For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.

#I do not like most of y’all.#Do not call people of colour you do not know neonazis to win points against a fictional character.#It is not my fault that most of your faves are boring and do nothing to drive the plot forward #take it up with george rr martin and stop villifying dany and her (mid) family.#The insistence that we must mind fandom etiqutte is tired as hell too especially because people use it as silencing tools.#“Yes I called you a neonazi but you are the real weirdo for finding my post so really it’s on you that you saw that.”#that’s how y’all sound.#If I see another post that equates enjoying dany to being a neonazi #i will make it everybodys problem.#Took a long break from this fandom because the rancid takes were overshadowing the good takes #and i’ve been back less than a year and the takes are even more rancid than before.#hotd opened an evil door that should’ve remained shut.#Cause why the fuck are there criston cole apologists? Why are there aemond and aegon ii apologists? It is a dark world we live in.#put the last giant at the bottom for my homies who have not read the books which if we're speaking real is more than half of y'all #now that i have gotten this out of my system #it is time to get back to demon slayer #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #asoiaf thoughts #asoiaf nonsense #if you saw the typos in the first version #no you didn't #edited this to add some thoughts I originally put in the tags because I felt it worked better there.

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its-ezraaa · 8 months

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You know what's actually my favorite part about 2ha? Of course I could list things like the humor, the characters or the writing style, but what really makes it as great as it is... is Meatbun's obvious love and passion for the characters, the world and.. well, everything. It's so blatantly obvious how much she loves the story she created - just look at her unhinged 3AM tweets where she can't stop drooling over her own characters lol (same)

Or the funny little mini theaters at the end of every chapter. There is no reason to write them, they aren't even included in the official English translation. Sometimes these mini theaters are just an elaborate build-up for a silly joke, sometimes she's just bullying her own characters a little, one time she even wrote half a page about potential fanfic AUs for 2ha. I repeat: this is just the author's note and all the fans who only read the official English translation will never see this.

And let's not forget the bonus chapters. At this point it's obvious but I adore these chapters. Xue Meng trying to find a date through some form of magic tinder (and consequentially wrecking havoc in the whole cultivation world), Chu Wanning celebrating his birthday or you know... Ranwan being canonical soulmates who will always end up falling for each other in every universe possible? The bonus chapters are a love letter. Written by Meatbun to Mo Ran, Chu Wanning, Xue Meng and the whole cultivation world she created.

Seeing a writer loving their own work so much just fills me with joy. How proud she must be, how much love and time she must have put into this. It just makes being a fan so much more enjoyable because at the end of the day, I have the feeling that the greatest 2ha fan is actually the author herself.

#2ha #Erha #the husky and his white cat shizun #Meatbun #Mo Ran #Chu Wanning #Ranwan #This counts for all her other works too btw #Actually I wrote this bc I saw her tweets about xie qingchen from bing an ben and man Meatbun is down bad for her beautiful old men OCs #(same)#Sorry for the long text I just like to talk about 2ha #Meatbun could secretly join the 2ha fandom and start fangirling over the characters and no one would question it #Yep another unhinged fan welcome to the family #Sure join us and write your crazy tinder AU chat fic

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valiant-portabella-pirkko · 9 months

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alright. know what? with Secrets of the Obscure right around the corner and plenty of new Mists-related sky island settings coming with it, I'll just bite the bullet and interest-check a little something I've been turning in my head for a long, long while.

would YOU be interested in a Mists-based GW2 roleplay guild that uses a lore compliant multiverse system to allow canon, canon-adjacent, lore-breaking, and otherwise 'contradictory' muses to coexist in the same setting?

simply put: every writer's cast would be set in their own self-contained universe. as such, everyone could bring whatever muses they want with their own personal headcanons, and no one could dictate what is or isn't canon for anyone else. so long as your muses are GW2-based, you're good to go! bring your Commanders, bring your canon-divergent OCs, bring your canon muses-- and yes, even the ones that are 'supposed' to be dead. who can say what might have happened in a strange world far across the Mists, after all?

neutral hubs and in-character safety guardrails would be in place to keep all muses on a relatively even playing field regardless of their power, history, and prestige, too. play hardball if you like, but it might not end quite the way you'd hope. the main rule would be to maintain good OOC etiquette at all times: no godmodding, no metagaming, no theft, don't blend IC and OOC, and so-on.

if that sounds like something you might have interest in, please interact with this post! and if you've got questions or concerns, I'd love to hear them; feel free to send an ask or a DM, or just reply to this post!

#GW2 roleplay #GW2 rp #GW2 #my posts #so there's a LOT of reasons why I'm putting this forward #but the biggest is that I really want there to be a place that's actually inclusive for all the creativity that exists in this fandom #there was exactly one Mists multiverse event a while back and it was well-received from everything I saw!#i know i for one had a lot of fun AND felt a lot more welcome and comfortable than i have at any other event #and then... we proceeded to just never have another again.#like. we could have more of that. that niche could still use filling! we can do SO much more with this!!!#and especially with SotO coming out we could have some REALLY interesting locations to meet up too!#I'd be happy to kickstart this stuff but the thing is: it WILL need support. I just can't do it all alone and that's a fact #example: if we want a guild hall in-game we'd have to work together to get one; that'd be great for hosting public and private events #my personal goal is 5-10 participants so that we can have enough to run small events and mingle muses a bit #IF there's enough interest i'll roll out more information at that time. for now tho i'll just leave it at this to test the waters #reblogs are HIGHLY appreciate here: i'm a smallfry in a big sea and not many people check the tags. spread the word if you want to see this #on that note: thanks for reading and hopefully i'll hear from some of you soon. o/#(side detail: that sky pic is a screen i snapped at night in Istan. it's so pretty there ok)

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lilaccrxsh · 1 year

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[If the Top Gun class of '86 were in a fantasy AU]

Goose: I sleep with a dagger under my pillow

Slider: Weak, I sleep with a sword

Mav: You're both pathetic

Slider: What do you sleep with?

Mav: Ice

#i did steal this from another fandom hahha #but i instantly saw it and thought of the '86 boys and was like yes this is the vibe #top gun #top gun 1986 #icemav

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asleepinawell · 1 year

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me trying to explain the whole fandaniel and zodiark thing to my friend who hasn't played the game: I had to kill the tentacle god because he got possessed by a clown

my friend:

#had to physically get up and walk into another room after that psychological damage #ffxiv #ffxivmp #mp #I mean I know not everyone saw the tumblr post the quote is from but that almost doesn't matter #fandaniel #i'm going to be reeling from this for the rest of the day #to the person responsible (they know who they are) how does it feel to be the funniest person in a fandom you aren't even in #making this is invoking that let's take psychological damage together pandaemonium meme I made #What Is Going On In Critically Acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV

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radioactive-cloud · 6 months

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i have beef with people committing hate crimes (filming anyone other than nace and jan during astp ending)

#saw a tiktok of astp performance from yesterday's gig and was excited to see The Moment from another angle #it was focused on bojan's face.#(i mean don't get me wrong it's a very pretty face)#(but tiktok's obsession with bojan has to be studied)#(i have a theory about why bojan and kris seem to be the most popular in the fandom on tiktok)#(but i won't elaborate)#(it's all jokes btw i'm glad to see any footage from their concerts)#joker out

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plantsjustwannahavefun · 7 days

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I am once again begging Ed stans to understand that it's possible to love Ed and believe he deserves love AND also admit that he mistreated and tormented the crew during the Kraken era. Not only is this possible, this is the position the show wants you to have. You think Izzy deserved everything he got? Fine, whatever, forget about him for a minute. There's a whole crew in there you're supposed to empathise with and feel sympathy for, too. The six of them that Ed actively tried to kill or left for dead, for starters. Pay attention to the crew's experiences and reactions. They're shown to be traumatised, grieving, clinging to disassociation (Frenchie) and nihilism (Archie) as coping mechanisms and suffering from PTSD flashbacks. And, since this type of fans constantly go on about how it's racist to think Ed did anything wrong... what about the fact that a lot of the crew are PoC too? What then?

If you've watched the first 3 episodes of S2 and there was only one person on that ship you felt sorry for, then you're not a fan of OFMD, you're just a fan of Ed in isolation. And if the only way you can love Ed is by denying that he ever did anything wrong, then you're completely missing the point of the show. OFMD never said that people only deserve to be loved if they're morally perfect and flawless. The show doesn't subscribe to the dichotomy of Good vs Bad. Good people can do bad things. They can hurt the ones they love. Even if they didn't mean to, even if they themselves were suffering at the time, it doesn't mean they don't need to take responsibility for their actions or avoid the consequences. Stede didn't mean to hurt Mary and his kids when he left, but he still did. He had legitimate reasons for leaving, he didn't just do it for the lolz, but it was still wrong and Mary was right to be angry at him. And Stede needed to face up to this - not just for their sake but his too. Even though it turned out their lives were better off without him, reconciling with Mary was still crucial for his character development.

It was the same for Ed, it just didn't get handled quite as well due to lack of screentime, but the idea was the same. When Ed realises he'd been cruel to Fang and apologises, he isn't sinking into self-hatred and despair. Quite the contrary, this is a moment of growth for him. Because the fact is, just because you as a human being are inherently worthy of love doesn't mean you can go around hurting everyone and expecting them to put up with you. That's just not how it works. You don't need to be perfect, but you do need to listen to people when they tell you that you hurt them and apologise genuinely and try to be better. The show is very sympathetic to Ed but it does NOT excuse his actions. The crew aren't portrayed as villains or antagonists for being scared and angry at Ed for what he did to them. Even Stede was on their side with this one. If even Stede is able to see things from the crew's POV and have sympathy for them, then you should too. Stede doesn't love Ed because he sees Ed as a pure uwu angel. He loves Ed... because he just does. He loves being around him. They really click together. They have so much in common. That doesn't mean he approves of literally everything Ed has ever done. It just means he loves Ed despite that.

#another day of me being incapable of writing a Tumblr post without turning it into a novel #but I just saw another post from that one account and ugh #there's just something so depressing about this type of fans because they really miss the point of the show so badly #they honestly think that redemption isn't possible #that you can never get better as a person #that if you do something bad then you're condemned to be an Evil Person forever #which is a complete antithesis to the heart of the show #Ed is such a beautifully complex character #tbh I still think S2 did him a bit dirty due to the lack of screentime #but still #no wonder the Venn diagram of this type of Ed stans and Izzy antis is a circle #if they don't believe characters can change or be rendered than ofc they were never going to forgive Izzy or recognise his growth either #ofmd fandom critical #canon Ed appreciation post #crew of the revenge #ofmd #our flag means death

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meadowlarkx · 9 months

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people online who are themselves fans creatively adapting and innovating with their source material are getting so comfortable making posts like "fandom generally is sooo crazy when they make their blorbos kiss" "fanon is shitty (and whatever i hate counts as it)" and i'm getting 🛌🛌🛌 about it. what fandom. who in it. which fanons? i like meta discussions about the text/characterization/etc, but what's the point of looking down your nose at fans and fandom generally? i saw you at the devil's sacrament!

#you guys mean your fandom or a specific subset of it....#also like #we are all here to engage with canon one way or another #but in my particular corner right now insisting on canon #is also the MO of all the racists insisting we can't imagine characters as non-white etc etc #and so on and so on #also this is not a vague at any of my beloved mutuals etc it's more frustrations bubbling up from twitter and from the very casual way #these attitudes appear at the beginning or end of perfectly good posts i agree with #i don't want to sound limiting to the like 'fans always do x :/' genre of critique but i think it could stand to be more specific #and use some i statements maybe. i often see this in my corner. i wish i saw more interest in x it's frustrating.#my posts #*i do hope ppl know it wasn't even a silm-specific post that made me want to make this one. just general attitudes of casual condescension

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maddy-ferguson · 8 months

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when people who like seasons 1 and 2 better explain why it was better they always lose me when they say "the characters were what mattered the most the supernatural plot was basically not that important it was ALL about the characters" like...that's just what YOU were more interested in not what was happening in the show? like wdym the supernatural plotline wasn't that important in seasons 1 and 2. saying that it was more balanced or more subtle i get but saying that the supernatural plot wasn't THAT important and that it's not what made anyone love the show is a blatant lie

#and like i say: brf slt #and i've seen people say this many times on many occasions i'm not even exaggerating. or making anything up #and i've been saying this for. a year and a half. minus two months. when volume 1 came out someone tweeted 'what the duffers fail to #understand is that no one watches st because they care about the russians or whatever. people watch st to see a ragtag group of kids be #nice to each other! to see a lesbian and a man with nice hair be friends!' and i said i agree with this at like 60% the 60% being ofc that #i hate the russia stuff we know this. but like. as much as i like the relationships between the characters if there's no life-threatening #things going on for more than a few dozen minutes...then i don't really care like that would be another show. (this has been a constant #i was not as into the show or the characters as i am now when i said that like volume 1 was my first time watching the show #since 2019. and it's a constant because it's still true) like that's literally what fanfic is for. or other shows.#and plenty of people watch stranger things for the russians or whatever i was actually surprised when people were ranking the subplots i #saw quite a lot of people put russia in their top 2 i was stunned. it was mostly older people older people meaning anyone who was 22 in #the past. i'm kidding but like idk people who were like 40+ and also guys? idk. like there's actually an audience for that my bad you guys #(not my bad i will always be a russia in st anti. because i hate it.)#my point is. no that was actually it. i just don't get it wdym people don't like the STORY plenty of people do. in the fandom especially i #totally get focusing more on the characters and being more interested in that i literally never talk about the supernatural plot and i #really like the characters yk and i understand when people say that they enjoyed the distribution between character things and supernatural #plot things in s1-2 more but saying that the supernatural stuff was like an afterthought and that no one actually cares or cared ever and #that it was never important is? like i get where they're coming from but also...no #and i get doing the 'if you don't take it as literally the monsters and supernatural plot things mean this and that for real life and for #the characters' i think it's very fun but like. if you don't like the genre and ignored it for the characters...?that's not really on them #i worded this like my joyce and bob post from july i hope you like it. the first sentence only #wait i actually didn't. just realized. false advertising sorry #saying this as someone who likes seasons 1 and 2 better too that goes without saying

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mrsblackruby · 9 months

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Personally I actually think the mutant mayhem movie ended really sad. I think the turtles will be seen as pawns of the machine more than as actually being truly accepted. The turtles got the fantasy they wanted but they shouldn’t have had to prove themselves like that to be accepted. It felt like a “oh you’re helping me now I’m gonna help you” but what happens when the turtles want something that helps them all but the humans don’t see it that way. I was enjoying the movie up until the end because I see tragedy looming in the air for my boys they aren’t truly free. Living like that under human rule and domination, and I hope one day they see that. Also same for April girl them people fake. The humans haven’t done the actual work yet the turtles shouldn’t have to placate their fears with servitude. If the ending were to actually make me happy Their agency should be respected sometimes the turtles will make mistakes and they shouldn’t have to risk being discriminated against because of that. That ending made me sad but I feel like people would expect it to make me happy personally it did not.

I feel like the turtles are trapped in a box where they’re expected to perfectly fit into how human society works now but what if the way human society works isn’t a prefect fit for them will people just expect them to be grateful they don’t have to live in the sewer system their entire lives anymore? It was a tragic ending for me personally I just don’t see it working out until that situation’s made more clear for the mutants and things didn’t seem cleared up by the end. I still liked the movie. But I don’t have my rose colored glasses on.

#mutant mayhem #tmnt mutant mayhem #meta #tw fandom discourse #The movie gets 7/10 for me #teenage muntant ninja turtles #Also people in my theatre were laughing because splinter was in love with another mutant I didn’t particularly enjoy the ship #But from people’s reaction of disgust in the theater I just think people saw it as funny cuz it was disgusting but that made me sad #Tw fandom discourse #Fandom #analysis #Tmnt #Spoilers #mutant mayhem spoilers

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